For those that own and use an actual paper copy of the Concordant Literal

[jabcat]

My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens.  In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the written Word, the Word revealed, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.   

[Beloved Servant]

logos/rhema

[Cardinal]

There is a vital difference between the scriptures and the word of God. I am enjoying this discussion very much.  :HeartThrob:

Ron

:cloud9: Yes, there is...... :thumbsup:  and as the disciples said, we've seen Him and handled Him, the RISEN Word. Blessings....

[jabcat]

IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.  As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.

John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".

John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.

Scripture is the written Word of God - John 14:23 "if a man love me he will keep my Words"

Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".

Logos: Unchanging self-existent Word of God
  Psalms 119:89 "forever o Lord thy Word (logos) is settled in heaven". Logos is the entire written Word of God.
Rhema: derived from the verb to speak. Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word.  But God also has written Word and spoken Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.

[martincisneros]

The letter is the law, chiseled in stone. The letter is not Paul's epistles which are life.

Yeah, you're right.  The two things that the New Testament calls dead are the Mosaic Law -- calls that hopelessly dead to us & we're dead to it, so that we can be married to another according to Romans 7, 2Corinthians 3, etc.  The other thing that the New Testament calls utterly dead are hearers of the Word that aren't doers of the Word.  Says if you are a hearer, but not a doer, then you've looked into the perfect law of liberty in the Written Word, have turned away & forgotten the person you were meant to be.  St. James gets a bit pointed about it that Nero's not doing the Word, other pagans aren't doing the Word, Jews aren't doing the Word, & here we've got Christians that aren't doing the Word & he points at the Christians & asks "HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT FROM THEM??"

Every line of the New Testament says to rejoice. Again, I say, rejoice because the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.  If you're "input of the 5 physical sense problem oriented" rather than sticking with the Covenant that's never changed that's declared in Holy Blood that you're free & richer than the dreams of avarice, then the Word of Christ doesn't yet dwell in you richly in all wisdom.  The harder it gets, REJOICE ALL THE HARDER, KNOWING the the trying of your faith puts perseverance to work, & when you let a joyful faith have it's perfect work in perseverance, then you'll experientially BURST THRU into being perfect & complete WANTING NOTHING:

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' says the LORD of hosts.
       12 ' For the seed shall be prosperous,
      The vine shall give its fruit,
      The ground shall give her increase,
      And the heavens shall give their dew—
      I will cause the remnant of this people
      To possess all these.
       13 And it shall come to pass
      That just as you were a curse among the nations,
      O house of Judah and house of Israel,
      So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
      Do not fear,
      Let your hands be strong.'

14 "For thus says the LORD of hosts:

      ' Just as I determined to punish you
      When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,'
      Says the LORD of hosts,

      ' And I would not relent,
       15 So again in these days
      I am determined(unrelenting?) to do good
      To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
      Do not fear.
       16 These are the things you shall do:
      Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
      Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
       17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
      And do not love a false oath.
      For all these are things that I hate,'
      Says the LORD." (Zechariah 8:11-17 NKJV)

Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word.  But God also has written Word and spoken Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.

Just got back from more time with Lord Jesus that got cut short & I'm unsure of why yet. He got stern with me about not letting a new situation that's emerged in my life be the choking of all He's ever taught me about sticking with the Book REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE, EXPERIENCE, OR WHATEVER -- BOOK'S FIRST PRIORITY & FINAL AUTHORITY IN ABSOLUTELY ALL THINGS 'CAUSE HE SAID YOUR NEEDS ARE MET ACCORDING TO HIS RICHES IN GLORY BY CHRIST JESUS REGARDLESS!!!!  He was very pointed with me with very strong language that I won't get into on the boards about that because of the situations He was addressing.  But the Written Word's first ALWAYS.

If anyone around here has been studying Song of Solomon, book of Zechariah's next on the agenda, if you're studying Song of Solomon deeply. It's 14 chapters on the UNRELENTING blessing, GOODNESS, & prosperity that's coming as we're perfected in our portion of the Order of Melchezedec.

[jabcat]

Amen, Martin.  God's really telling you there's reason to rejoice, isn't He?  Joy's coming...is it morning?   :happyclap:

[martincisneros]

Proceeding Words do relate to the proper application of the Biblical principles, like when it comes to sowing and reaping by faith.  The Book says what it says about it.  Needs come up both with regards to our own growth/development and regarding the meeting of those urgent needs of contentment, development, health, peace, reconciliation, safety, or wealth, then our relationship with Holy Spirit does matter very deeply on what we're to give, where, and which particular parts of the Scripture apply with regards to the particular need that we're facing since so often there's an area where we're needing both His provision and His correction so that we never fall into that particular health or wealth ditch again to where we're "under the circumstances" which is never a Biblical position for a Christian to be in since we sit with Him in heavenly places far above all principality and power and every name that's named. 

But the Word of Christ has to dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom and in all corresponding action in proportion to our manifestations for our continued growth and for what Holy Spirit is to illuminate in our particular situation as guidance to bring about the breakthroughs we need, the overcoming of opposition from the Adversary, and what's in the best interests of getting the Gospel out.  The magnification of the Name of Lord Jesus and the beautification of the feet of those that carry the Gospel into all of the world is top priority.  The matter is established by the two witnesses of the Written Word and Holy Spirit.  Never ever by one alone.  Voices, convictions, and ideas that contradict the Written Word are to be disguarded immediately in the behalf of the Written Word 'cause every thought is to be brought captive to the obedience of Christ.  I've never had an experience with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or an angel that EVER contradicted a single Scripture.

Both have to agree or it's not valid.  A lot of people are trying to discern how they know if they're hearing Him or if they're not.  It's not hard.  He sounds like the Book ALWAYS.  I don't mean He always sounds like such and such a clique's doctrine in the Body of Christ.  But He'll always sound just like the Book and He'll always guide according to the Book.  The Book's first.  Everyone I've ever known that's ever had a valid vision of Lord Jesus or of some other heavenly being could always get 'em to show it to 'em out of the Book out of the mouth of two or three witnesses -- no matter what was being said.  When there's hesitancy to take you to the Book about it, rebuke it in the Name of Lord Jesus, even if it's claiming to be Lord Jesus, and stick with the Book.  The Book isn't verified by signs and wonders.  Signs and wonders have to be verified by the Book, otherwise you'll always be out of step with His plan, His timing, and will be open to losing your peace EASILY.

[martincisneros]

Amen, Martin.  God's really telling you there's reason to rejoice, isn't He?  Joy's coming...is it morning?   :happyclap:

MORNING HAS BROKEN :Sparkletooth:

I'm going to need some time to process what Lord Jesus preached to me, but some very very interesting references include:

13 And the LORD answered the angel who talked to me, with good and comforting words. Zechariah 1:13

17 "Again proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts:
      " My cities shall again spread out through prosperity;
      The LORD will again comfort Zion,
      And will again choose Jerusalem."'" Zechariah 1:17

5 For I,' says the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'" Zechariah 2:5

10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. Zechariah 2:10

13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!" Zechariah 2:13

1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. Zechariah 4:1

2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
      ' I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
      With great fervor I am zealous for her.'
3 "Thus says the LORD:
      ' I will return to Zion,
      And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
      Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
      The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
      The Holy Mountain.'
4 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
      ' Old men and old women shall again sit
      In the streets of Jerusalem,
      Each one with his staff in his hand
      Because of great age.
       5 The streets of the city
      Shall be full of boys and girls
      Playing in its streets.'
6 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
      ' If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
      Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?'
      Says the LORD of hosts.  Zechariah 8:2-6 (I misread that last question for years. Yes, of course, it's marvelous in His Eyes, because this whole book of Zechariah is a book of REJOICING and a declaration of UNRELENTING goodness.)

9 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
      ' Let your hands be strong,
      You who have been hearing in these days
      These words by the mouth of the prophets,
      Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
      For the house of the LORD of hosts,
      That the temple might be built.  Zechariah 8:9

8 I will camp around My house
      Because of the army,
      Because of him who passes by and him who returns.
      No more shall an oppressor pass through them,
      For now I have seen with My eyes. Zechariah 9:8

12 Return to the stronghold,
      You prisoners of hope.
      Even today I declare
      That I will restore double to you. Zechariah 9:12

16 The LORD their God will save them in that day,
      As the flock of His people.
      For they shall be like the jewels of a crown,
      Lifted like a banner over His land—
       17 For how great is its goodness
      And how great its beauty!
      Grain shall make the young men thrive,
      And new wine the young women. Zechariah 9:16-17

6 " I will strengthen the house of Judah,
      And I will save the house of Joseph.
      I will bring them back,
      Because I have mercy on them.
      They shall be as though I had not cast them aside;
      For I am the LORD their God,
      And I will hear them. Zechariah 10:6

12 " So I will strengthen them in the LORD,
      And they shall walk up and down in His name,"
      Says the LORD. Zechariah 10:12

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.
7 "The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:5-9

8 And in that day it shall be
      That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
      Half of them toward the eastern sea
      And half of them toward the western sea;
      In both summer and winter it shall occur.
       9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
      In that day it shall be—
      " The LORD is one,"
      And His name one. Zechariah 14:8-9

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
      And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
      Shall be gathered together:
      Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. Zechariah 14:14


I'm passing by a lot of meat in this book, just giving highlights for those with ears to hear what Lord Jesus is saying.

[martincisneros]

logos/rhema

Biblically, the Charismatic doctrine built around these two words doesn't really exist from the standpoint of your not finding "rhema" everywhere in the Greek New Testament that you might honestly expect to find it, if it had the meaning applied to it by many Pentecostals.  Additionally, neither in the Septuignt nor in the Greek New Testament does "rhema" mean a Word proceeding from the Father.  The Word proceeding from the Father as Son in John 1 is "logos."  The closest you can come to of a "rhema" in the way that a Charismatic would use that idea would be if I successfully communicated some aspect of the Bible that's a living reality in my heart into your heart where no aspect of the living reality of it were lost in the translation, either thru your hearing/reading 75 CDs/articles of mine about it, or it having grown in me to the point to where the image of it from beyond my veil successfully transmitted beyond your veil, particularly with Holy Spirit's aid. 

However, if it became a living reality in you to where the Son were reproduced in you, you'd of become a "logos," which sorta makes it a catch-22 on whether or not it's an actual "rhema" situation in the way that Charismatics try to use that Greek word.  It's more the process that's being defined by "rhema" than the type of Word 'cause the highest manifestation of the Word known in New Testament Greek, that I know of, is "logos."  St. Paul would use the phrase "partaking of his grace."  The word translated "fellowship" is [conceptually though not linguistically] a kin to the only ideas I've ever seen conveyed by the New Testament Greek in the word "rhema" where "fellowship" would be the noun or object or intent of the Covenant and "rhema" would describe the process of spiritual copulation that reproduces that life in someone else by attending to their words, not letting them depart from your eyes, keeping them in the midst of your heart, and keeping your hands and feet heading towards it at all times, not turning to the right or left, as is described by Proverbs 4:20-27.  The two words in Greek aren't remotely related linguistically, but conceptually [in the way a Charismatic Christian would understand it] are closer than logos/rhema.

Basically, the whole "logos/rhema" doctrine a lot of folks get into is about as sloppy as the John Hagee claim about Jesus saying more about Hell than heaven.

[Beloved Servant]

* just a disclaimer
I do not know who John Hagee is and I have not read or heard anything by or from the man.

[Cardinal]

IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.  As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.

:cloud9: That's not what I'm advocating by what I wrote. Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

Proceeding Words do relate to the proper application of the Biblical principles, like when it comes to sowing and reaping by faith.  The Book says what it says about it.  Needs come up both with regards to our own growth/development and regarding the meeting of those urgent needs of contentment, development, health, peace, reconciliation, safety, or wealth, then our relationship with Holy Spirit does matter very deeply on what we're to give, where, and which particular parts of the Scripture apply with regards to the particular need that we're facing since so often there's an area where we're needing both His provision and His correction so that we never fall into that particular health or wealth ditch again to where we're "under the circumstances" which is never a Biblical position for a Christian to be in since we sit with Him in heavenly places far above all principality and power and every name that's named. 

But the Word of Christ has to dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom and in all corresponding action in proportion to our manifestations for our continued growth and for what Holy Spirit is to illuminate in our particular situation as guidance to bring about the breakthroughs we need, the overcoming of opposition from the Adversary, and what's in the best interests of getting the Gospel out.  The magnification of the Name of Lord Jesus and the beautification of the feet of those that carry the Gospel into all of the world is top priority.  The matter is established by the two witnesses of the Written Word and Holy Spirit.  Never ever by one alone.  Voices, convictions, and ideas that contradict the Written Word are to be disguarded immediately in the behalf of the Written Word 'cause every thought is to be brought captive to the obedience of Christ.  I've never had an experience with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or an angel that EVER contradicted a single Scripture.

Both have to agree or it's not valid.  A lot of people are trying to discern how they know if they're hearing Him or if they're not.  It's not hard.  He sounds like the Book ALWAYS.  I don't mean He always sounds like such and such a clique's doctrine in the Body of Christ.  But He'll always sound just like the Book and He'll always guide according to the Book.  The Book's first.  Everyone I've ever known that's ever had a valid vision of Lord Jesus or of some other heavenly being could always get 'em to show it to 'em out of the Book out of the mouth of two or three witnesses -- no matter what was being said.  When there's hesitancy to take you to the Book about it, rebuke it in the Name of Lord Jesus, even if it's claiming to be Lord Jesus, and stick with the Book.  The Book isn't verified by signs and wonders.  Signs and wonders have to be verified by the Book, otherwise you'll always be out of step with His plan, His timing, and will be open to losing your peace EASILY.

:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........

HOWEVER; there is HIDDEN MANNA in the Book that is VEILED by the literal surface understanding of the letter of the Word, and this hidden manna is even the Lord that came down from HEAVEN.

I posted part of this before, but this is an excerpt out of an article written by Messianic Rabbi, Rabbi Moshe Yosef Koniuchowsky, who was discussing that the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi's refuse to allow the use of PARDES for the study of the NT......

"The system of hebraic understanding used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for;

PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning
REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper
DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc.....and,
SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text.

Rarely does anything messianic come out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading. It has been accepted by Hebrew scholars that pardes is the only way to fully and fruitfully understand scriptures. YHWH sets the rules and we have no choice but to follow them.

However, on the other hand, when the Hebrew writers of the New Testament employ PaRDeS, all hell breaks loose, amidst accusations of paganism, Greek mythology, polytheism, plagiarism, Gnosticism, deception and unreliability.

By not allowing the Hebrew writers of the New Testament the same freedom and leeway they allow the writers of the First Covenant, they violate Torah, by engaging in abominations and detestable behavior before YHWH.

Moreover, they cheat themselves and others of the gift of salvation from this life. For Messiah said "the Words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life."1 The Spirit world can only be revealed in the Spirit, and the Spirit of YHWH comes in 4 basic measures or levels."

Now he's saying rarely does anything Messianic come out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading, and I've been trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to say that the HIDDEN MANNA which is the Word that was Spirit from the foundation of the world, is ALSO not seen in the literal primary first glance reading of the logos, which is literal natural letter, and not rhema, which is literally the breath that inhabits the letter(s).

This same idea is expressed by Paul, only in reversed contrast, when he spoke essentially that the idol was not anything, but rather the spirit behind it, was the real issue.

And again, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The literal is the house (Beth) that the rhema inhabits.

When we want to make a friend of someone, generally speaking that involves knowing where they live so we can visit. Once there, we don't talk to the house and exalt the house, but we seek to have relationship with the person who resides there. In the same way we are to get to know the Person of Christ intimately, not just the house He dwells in.

Ignoring this fundamental understanding is EXACTLY what made it possible for those that were alive then, to miss His appearing, because they were looking for a ruling King (heavenly King), not a suffering servant (literal flesh). The reverse is happening with the body today; they are looking for a suffering servant and not a ruling King. Blessings....

[Molly]

The literal is the house (Beth) that the rhema inhabits. Blessings....

wow!  Just as we in our natural bodies are the temple of the Lord.

[martincisneros]

:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........

You're offended by testing every vision and spiritual experience by the Book?  It's what I said, contextually.  I'm in agreement about everything else you'd said.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........

You're offended by testing every vision and spiritual experience by the Book?  It's what I said, contextually.  I'm in agreement about everything else you'd said.

:cloud9: OF COURSE NOT

[gregoryfl]

I would add as well, that when I say there is a difference between the scriptures and the word of God, I am by no means disregarding the scriptures, nor am I speaking negatively of them. I believe that Jesus describes one of the chief functions of the written word, the scriptures, when he says to the Pharisees:

Joh 5:39,40  "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.

Notice that they searched the scriptures, and why? Because they thought that it was in those scriptures that eternal life was found. But Jesus said that those scriptures had another function, to point to Him, who would give the eternal life they sought.

Jesus spoke the truth about the role of scripture, saying nothing negative about it, but showing it's true purpose. Today people tend to do the same thing that the Pharisees did though. Everything revolves around the Book. Think of why it is that people like to dress it up so much, putting expensive leather covers on it, guild the edges with gold, etc. Why some have to buy the big family Bible that just sits there as an heirloom on the coffee table for generations. The Jews do the same thing with the Torah today. They treat it as though it were a living person, if you are familiar with the practices of the synagogue today. They even have a burial for it when it is retired and a new copy takes it's place. I am not speaking about the meticulousness with which they copied the text, for that was vital for the preservation of the text. I am speaking about how the text itself is revered and thought of, when it itself testifies of something greater.

What would you think of someone who went into a restaurant and when he got the menu, studied it, even started to chew on it, but never ordered anything from it? Yet that is what so many do today with the scriptures. The menu is not the food, it tells you about the food. It points to the food, testifying to it so you want the actual food. The menu is not negated, but serves it's purpose wonderfully. So to does the scripture.

In the first century, virtually no believer possessed a copy of the scriptures, yet they all had the word of God, for he dwelled within them, just as he does us today. He is the food and drink we live off of, not the scriptures. They function as the menu, if you will, testifying and pointing to the true food and drink, Jesus himself.

I love and study the scriptures avidly. I am even working on a translation of it. Yet I know that it is that which testifies to the reality, the Word of God, Jesus himself. The scriptures are never called the word of God. The scriptures contain the word of God, but they are never called it. We have just been taught to read that into the text.

For example, in Hebrews 4:12 it is commonly taught that the word of God that is alive and active is speaking of the scriptures, but it is not. The very next verse continues the thought started by verse 12 in saying that nothing is hidden from HIS sight, meaning that the word of God that is alive and active is speaking, not of the words in a book, but the living word, Jesus, who sees all and searches all by means of his spirit.

Ron

[jabcat]

Ron, though you make many good points, I disagree that the scriptures are never called the Word of God.  Just one mention is "Your Word (logos) is forever settled in the heavens".

I guess we will each believe what we believe until God teaches us something different, and when we yield our will to His leading.  I've stated how I understand it - that we have the written Word, the spoken/revealed Word, and Jesus the Word.

James.

[Taffy]

well we all agree to differ Ron - Good post :icon_flower:

got go with a few others on this thread Ref, Card ,

we make an idol of the book ... tis how I see it..you could say been there
got the T shirt..THE HARD way.. :sigh:

Blessings to all
Taffy

[jabcat]

I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu  :laughing7:).  But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself;  that the logos is also the Word.  (Psalm 119:89)

Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions.  What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?

Have a great day Taf!  James.

[Taffy]

I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu  :laughing7:).  But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself;  that the logos is also the Word.  (Psalm 119:18)

Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions.  What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?

James.

James :icon_flower:
we could bang this about ALL DAY  as whats been said by those on both sides within this thread..throw in Nathan Peacemaker and few others then a few the other side..etc..and guess what..it wont change a THING... lest the LORD desires :icon_flower:

over and out....nothing more to add buddy  :icon_flower:

Blessings
:icon_flower:

[gregoryfl]

You mean Psalm 119:89? And Jab, I by no means am saying that in our disagreement that you are idolizing the bible. I know of your heart toward our Lord, and of your love for him.

I mainly speak from my experience in former days where I treated scripture as though if I didn't have a copy to read and try to live by, I could not be pleasing to God, that I was missing something. That is my personal reason for speaking passionately about this in the way I do. Having lived so much of my life "by the book" I found I was missing the very one I thought I was living for, Jesus himself.

As to the scripture there:

Psa 119:89  Yahweh, your word is settled in heaven forever.

My answer would be that yes, in terms of whatever of his words are found in the holy writings (another of the terms scripture used therein) I definitely agree that they are settled just as David said. I guess if I had to disagree with anything it would be to say that his word is limited to what we find in the scriptures, as though David were only speaking of the writings of scripture, for God spoke many more things that were never recorded and continues to speak his word today, many more things not recorded in the scriptures, yet they are settled in heaven just the same.

Is his word found in scripture? Most assuredly. Is the sum total of his word found there? By no means, for he continues to speak today as he lives his life in each of us, things that will never (as far as we know) be recorded to or added to scripture.

:HeartThrob:

Ron

[martincisneros]

I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu  :laughing7:).  But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself;  that the logos is also the Word.  (Psalm 119:18)

Jabcat,

What's important for a conclusion of this matter is that those that are cutting very fine lines about the authority of Scripture in this thread AREN'T dismissing the place of Holy Spirit in a believer's life as the unveiler of truth, the One Who passes along all He hears from Father and Son, and Who reminds us of all He's said to us.  And I'm not hearing ANYONE that's posted on this thread thus far that majors more on the Holy Spirit's preeminence in a believer's life in their emphasis give any indications that the Scriptures aren't important and central to a believer's life.  I'm not hearing any conflict, personally, unless there's a thought in the back of the minds of those who emphasize Holy Spirit's place in our lives that those of us who are cutting fine lines along Scriptural lines are in any way giving the Bible too much place in our lives. 

To me, there will never ever be any such thing as giving the Bible too much place.  Only makes greater room for Holy Spirit to further take over if your marriage is with the Bible rather than with certain teaching outlines on the Bible.  It's those that have held to particular doctrinal emphasis at the expense of further expansion of our understanding of the Bible by Holy Spirit that have left a bad taste in the mouths of those that are leery of not giving Him enough place, while those of us that have seen Charismatic fruits, flakes, and nuts tend to be really quick with the NO, you can't give the Bible too much place as Holy Spirit is moving! roflol :laughing7:  It takes both to live balanced.  It's why on my facebook page, I've had listed for the longest that my creed was the book of Ephesians rather than mentioning any of the creeds or giving links to the creeds of certain ministries, like a lot of UR folks will use on their website a link to the statement of faith of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association 'cause it's UR friendly but not laden with religious whatever.  To me, what's important is the Spirit and the Book and not a former dead presentation of someone's previous understanding of the Book.  That's always been my perspective, if I've been less clear at some times than at other times.

[martincisneros]

Additionally, Jabcat,

Threads that go in the direction that this one wound up going usually wind up getting many posts that don't reflect the whole of one's views, but that are a reaction to what one is currently viewing at that time as a threat to the life, health, advancement, thriving, sanctification, and wholeness of believers RIGHT THEN.  Let someone wander back to the boards that's got a bit of a throwing Scripture out with the dirty bath water attitude and you'd be surprised about who around here suddenly becomes a bold Smith Wigglesworth about the place of the Scriptures in our lives.

Again, I was never perceiving any genuine conflict here on anything that was said on this thread, up to this point.

[Cardinal]

I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu  :laughing7:).  But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself;  that the logos is also the Word.  (Psalm 119:89)

Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions.  What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?

Have a great day Taf!  James.

:cloud9: It's me again  :winkgrin:

Ok, I love the Hebrew, and one of the best ways I've found to find out the thought of the heart of God on a matter, is to look at the FIRST time a word is used in the book, before that thought (which is His breath) becomes muddled thru all the "looking glasses that are darkened", as the ages progressed and man hardened his heart against His Spirit more and more, and the understanding that was given thru that word was lost in different contexts. That said, a lot of times you find them in Genesis first.

As in this case, the word "word" there that you quoted out of Psalms 119 is used FIRST in Genesis in this context:

Ge 15:1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

I think we can easily see here, that a Book is NOT the word that came unto Abram. The word used there means the following.....

Original Word   Word Origin
rbd   from (01696)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Dabar   TWOT - 399a
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
daw-baw'       Noun Masculine
Definition

   1. speech, word, speaking, thing
         1. speech
         2. saying, utterance
         3. word, words
         4. business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

Which comes from a root word that means......

Original Word   Word Origin
rbd   a primitive root
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Dabar   TWOT - 399
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
daw-bar'       Verb
Definition

   1. to speak, declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing
         1. (Qal) to speak
         2. (Niphal) to speak with one another, talk
         3. (Piel)
               1. to speak
               2. to promise
         4. (Pual) to be spoken
         5. (Hithpael) to speak
         6. (Hiphil) to lead away, put to flight 

The interesting one there to me, is, SING. When I asked the Lord years ago, what the "new song" was we were going to sing, to use Abram's vernacular, "the word of the Lord came to me"  :winkgrin: and He said, "To sing means to raise the voice; raised as in speaking out of the realm of Spirit instead of out of the realm of flesh."

As a new creation man, we do sing a new song.

The other word there that blessed me, is the word "settled" out of Psalm 119. It means......

Original Word   Word Origin
bcn   a primitive root
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Natsab   TWOT - 1398
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
naw-tsab'       Verb
Definition

   1. to stand, take one's stand, stand upright, be set (over), establish
         1. (Niphal)
               1. to station oneself, take one's stand
               2. to stand, be stationed
               3. to stand, take an upright position
               4. to be stationed, be appointed
               5. deputy, prefect, appointed, deputed (subst)
               6. to stand firm
         2. (Hiphil)
               1. to station, set
               2. to set up, erect
               3. to cause to stand erect
               4. to fix, establish
         3. (Hophal) to be fixed, be determined, be stationary

To stand in an upright position is EXACTLY what the Spirit does, as I suggested in my earlier post, ie. RESURRECT the Word. Both "to sing" and "to stand in an upright position", both word meanings carry the same thought/breath of God in that something is being RAISED UP.

And again, let me be clear as crystal, I'm not suggesting AT ALL, in any way, shape or form, that the written Word is to be done away with. Far from it, it's what I glean from. Just call me, "Smith"..... :winkgrin: :laughing7: Blessings....

[Taffy]

Additionally, Jabcat,

Threads that go in the direction that this one wound up going usually wind up getting many posts that don't reflect the whole of one's views, but that are a reaction to what one is currently viewing at that time as a threat to the life, health, advancement, thriving, sanctification, and wholeness of believers RIGHT THEN.  Let someone wander back to the boards that's got a bit of a throwing Scripture out with the dirty bath water attitude and you'd be surprised about who around here suddenly becomes a bold Smith Wigglesworth about the place of the Scriptures in our lives.

Again, I was never perceiving any genuine conflict here on anything that was said on this thread, up to this point.

Hi Bud

more than a few veiws have been already raised on this thread..both sides of course...

and theres No conflict..just differing opinion....

:icon_flower:

Martin ya Subtle quips dont go amiss..and for mine KEEP em to yourself Bud....ty  :icon_flower: