The online version's not going to show it, yet, 'til perhaps later editions of it, if they choose to make further improvements to the online edition. The online version only has regular print in it. But with the copies you buy, their translation work is in bold print and they use light print on words that they've inserted to try to smooth it out from Greek to English. Be very careful with the light type added to the translation work in the CLNT 'cause occasionally it adds ideas that aren't there. Holy Spirit's corrected me in the middle of reading it a time or two and had me pay CLOSER attention to the bold print only and just advisedly keep in mind the light print if it doesn't alter the meaning in the least of something He's trying to show me.
KJV does the same thing with trying to smooth out the translation with italicized words that are inserted into the translation at the privelege of the translators to try to improve readability. Sometimes they help and sometimes they hinder your understanding of what Holy Spirit's saying. In the KJV, Philippians 3 and Mark 16:20 come to mind as two chapters where the italicized words are disastrous to understanding what He was intending should be conveyed to you. In the KJV in Philippians 3, that should read "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended but one thing...." because his teaching thru the rest of his epistles is that by graces thru faith we have attained all things in Christ Jesus. And for the close of Mark's Gospel the ground is innocently conceded to religious ideas like cessationism by having that word "them" added to it 'cause properly translated and He went with them working with and confirming the Word with signs following. He wasn't confirming personages, but the Gospel, as is born out later in the New Testament with the Gospel being dogmatically asserted to be His power, so that no manifestations means no Gospel being preached and taught, Biblically.
The situation may be a little worse with CLNT on those light printed words that they use where it'll very subtly change it or in some way be a faith and/or understanding robber. I'm not accusing them of twisting the text, but a few of 'em are blatantly [though likely unconsciously] interpretive insertions into the translation. Sometimes without those light face print words it becomes much more pointed and weighty what Holy Spirit was saying thru His Apostles and you pick up on His tone about it rather than having ideas innocently added that almost make it a paraphrase that takes your mind elsewhere from what was intended both by Him and the translators doing their best with the understanding they had of both the text and English standards for what they understood it to mean.
An example In the King James is: "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." You either have God through the Holy Spirit or you don't. Many have used this verse to teach that Jesus had the Spirit without measure; but, we only have a part. So, when it says, "...According to the measure of the gift of Christ..." they think we were given a part by Christ rather than Christ is the gift and that is the measure.
Through the indwelling Spirit all Jesus is and does is yours in potential. As we mature we are more available to function by His Spirit. The original word for Church, Eclessia, means "Out-called." That means we come out of everywhere else to come into Christ, to join with Him. The call that makes us come forth, even from our graves, is the Word Who was made flesh. "In beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God, and God was the word." (Jn 1:1) The speaking of God in these days is in "the category of Sonship." He speaks "son-wise" to us. "God...in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son..." (Hb 1:1) If "Son" in the beginning of Hebrews had an article it would be referring us to Jesus in particular. Without an article (anarthous) is how it is. That means it is a generic category. God is speaking us into being His own offspring as mature inheritors of all authority and all possessions in the family name. To those who hear, "Come."
When He came in it wasn't a little toe of Him. We didn't just get a piece or a part. We don't tell the little kids to, "Ask for Jesus' beard to come into your heart;" or, "Ask for Jesus' shoulder to dwell in you." We were given God as Spirit. We couldn't be admonished to pursue and, "Seek earnestly the best gifts" (1 Co 12:31 and, 14:2) unless all the gifts were available.
I know that in I Co 12 our being members in particular is brought out. "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Co 12:12) But, that is another side to it.
Dear Martin, here is the CLNT version with your reference bolded:
Phi 3:8-13 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ, (9) and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:" (10) to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, (11) if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead. (12) Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus." (13) Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing - forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front - "
I fail to see any problem. Paul had not fully experienced the power of His resurrection yet and had not, at that point in his life, he had not reckoned himself to have grasped that or attained to that for which he was grasped by Christ. But he was continuing on in running the race.
As for Mark
Mar 16:20 Now they, coming away, herald everywhere, the Lord working together with them and confirming the word by the signs following them up."
I don't see how "with them" presents a problem. The word "together" brings up the idea that the Lord was working together with the disciples in confirming the word (most likely the word of His resurrection?) by signs following them up. How could the Lord be working together with them if He has not been resurrected from the dead?
Nice you got the CLNT.
Well, there's a respecter of persons doctrine that people get into with this idea. I'm not claiming that that's the only verse that cessationism is based upon. Lots of other things to look at, but part of the idea of cessationism is that He worked with them in a way that He won't work with us, but if it's clearly understood that He's working with & confirming the Word & He'll work with & confirm the Word any time it's genuinely preached & taught from a pure heart of a little child that expects Him & His Gospel to be bigger than anything that they encounter, then many millions, as you know, report the signs & wonders continuing throughout Church history & throughout their own personal lives; they seek first the Kingdom of God & His righteousness, & find Him faithful that all of these things are being added to them as well of whatever the material necessities of life, mind, & body would ever happen to be & entail.
He'll work with anyone throughout all of their days that'll meditate in the Word day & night until they're doers of the Word & not hearers only from a heart that has it as first priority & final authority in their lives in all matters of life & godliness; faith & practice. A lot of people are afraid of "religious implications" to what I say along these lines, but it's inescapable that if the Written Word isn't first priority & final authority then the flesh will always be, because according to Lord Jesus in John's Gospel both flesh & spirit are a mindset & what's not diligently being reprogrammed by the Book day & night is Robert Burns' "Best laid plans of mice & men..." 'cause a "Proceeding Word" might or might not come, but we can ALWAYS walk in His perfect will if we're men of the Word.
If we've not been faithful with that which is another man's, i.e. what came forth from the Apostles & Prophets of the Bible, then Lord Jesus said "Who's going to give you your own?" implying not Him. But people committed to the Book? He'll talk to them 24/7 if they're doers of the Word & not hearers only 24/7. He said not to let that Word depart from your mouth day & night & you'd see how to do all that's written therein & you'll prosper & have good success, & as I was with Moses, i.e. the one hearing those "Proceeding Words," so will I be with you, if you'll stick with the Book & not an enemy will be able to stand before you all of the days of your life -- which is a promise Moses didn't have 'cause his own temper got the better of him & he couldn't enter into the promised land, i.e., he was slain by the Goliath in the mirror.
St. Paul repeats the same Joshua 1:8 promise in his own writings many times with an obvious example being Colossians 3:12-17, i.e., become the Book & then go & be the Author of the Book. Philippians 2:5 says to let the same mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus & enjoy being Lord of all thru all of these trials since we're the lords He's Lord of, whereas Philippians 3:17 & 4:9 say to imitate those that have been His pattern expecting the same results, contextually. Ephesians 5:1 says to imitate Him, & Lord Jesus in John 8 gives us the blank check that if we'll do it the way He does it, we'll get the same results, & Ephesians 5 goes on to corroborate with husbands being Christ & wives being the Church & Church in the New Testament is basically just Christ Junior since the Church is simply the craddle that the Colossians 1:27 Christs are to be coming out of according to Ephesians 4.
:cloud9: Uh, a word about proceeding words is called for here. When Jesus walked on the water, He was displaying Himself in His true form as the firmament/Spirit/heaven, as He was walking ABOVE the waters below. The waters below are ANYTHING IN THE NATURAL, including the BOOK.
Likewise, He told Peter to come out of the boat that represented man's feeble attempts to rise above the waters below the firmament, via the flesh (Sodom) and carnal mind (Gomorrah) the WOODEN boat (a tree CUT DOWN) moved by the winds =every wind of doctrine originating from the enemy of our souls.
The Word that was written was none other than the Word that was from the foundation, which is NOT A BOOK, but the nature of a person, and that person is a SPIRIT.
So this is why we have the admonition that man shall not live (or have the life of the Spirit) by bread/letter ALONE, but by every WORD/BREATH that comes from the mouth of the Father.
I have read the letter, continue to read the letter, will always read the letter, but it is DEAD LETTER, and must be resurrected by the Spirit in the heart of the believer, or it remains dead, ie. LIFE-less.
The REVELATION of Jesus Christ is what is happening when what we call "revelation" of the scriptures takes place in us, giving us "understanding" in the "twinkling" of an eye, being revealed in our "heaven", the mind of Christ.
This IS a proceeding word/breath of life, and is what witnesses to us that HE is not only ALIVE in us, but BREATHING.
As we share those revelations/breaths it is as us giving mouth to nose (discerning of spirits) RESUSCITATION, to whatever part of the body (His) is still "DROWNED" (NO BREATH) under the waters below the firmament/Spirit/heaven, IN US, as we are as the waters below the firmament, ALSO.
The water baptism is symbolic of being baptized into His death, ie. coming into agreement that you have taken YOUR last BREATH.
So, Peter, RISE UP and walk with Me in heavenly places. Blessings....
Exactly, same coin rather than either/or; one coin, two sides, same rate of exchange, next... :bgdance:
5:4 Yes, we who are in this tent certainly do sigh under our burdens, for we do not wish to lay aside that with which we are now clothed, but to put on more, so that our mortality may be absorbed in Life.
5:5 And He who formed us with this very end in view is God, who has given us His Spirit as a pledge and foretaste of that bliss.
5:6 We have therefore a cheerful confidence. We know that while we are at home in the body we are banished from the Lord;
5:7 for we are living a life of faith, and not one of sight.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ35XCCNPuw
Quote from: Cardinal on October 28, 2009, 11:57:23 PM
:cloud9: Uh, a word about proceeding words is called for here. When Jesus walked on the water, He was displaying Himself in His true form as the firmament/Spirit/heaven, as He was walking ABOVE the waters below. The waters below are ANYTHING IN THE NATURAL, including the BOOK.
Likewise, He told Peter to come out of the boat that represented man's feeble attempts to rise above the waters below the firmament, via the flesh (Sodom) and carnal mind (Gomorrah) the WOODEN boat (a tree CUT DOWN) moved by the winds =every wind of doctrine originating from the enemy of our souls.
The Word that was written was none other than the Word that was from the foundation, which is NOT A BOOK, but the nature of a person, and that person is a SPIRIT.
So this is why we have the admonition that man shall not live (or have the life of the Spirit) by bread/letter ALONE, but by every WORD/BREATH that comes from the mouth of the Father.
I have read the letter, continue to read the letter, will always read the letter, but it is DEAD LETTER, and must be resurrected by the Spirit in the heart of the believer, or it remains dead, ie. LIFE-less.
The REVELATION of Jesus Christ is what is happening when what we call "revelation" of the scriptures takes place in us, giving us "understanding" in the "twinkling" of an eye, being revealed in our "heaven", the mind of Christ.
This IS a proceeding word/breath of life, and is what witnesses to us that HE is not only ALIVE in us, but BREATHING.
As we share those revelations/breaths it is as us giving mouth to nose (discerning of spirits) RESUSCITATION, to whatever part of the body (His) is still "DROWNED" (NO BREATH) under the waters below the firmament/Spirit/heaven, IN US, as we are as the waters below the firmament, ALSO.
The water baptism is symbolic of being baptized into His death, ie. coming into agreement that you have taken YOUR last BREATH.
So, Peter, RISE UP and walk with Me in heavenly places. Blessings....
Wowzer, that was good Card! I mean it. I rarely print off something to just hold and read but I did with these words of yours.
Thanks!
cp
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFL2NDxF-CA&feature=related
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2009, 02:55:08 AM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFL2NDxF-CA&feature=related
That was a beautiful song.
I am thankful for my speakers. :cloud9:
Quote from: claypot on October 29, 2009, 02:52:04 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 28, 2009, 11:57:23 PM
:cloud9: Uh, a word about proceeding words is called for here. When Jesus walked on the water, He was displaying Himself in His true form as the firmament/Spirit/heaven, as He was walking ABOVE the waters below. The waters below are ANYTHING IN THE NATURAL, including the BOOK.
Likewise, He told Peter to come out of the boat that represented man's feeble attempts to rise above the waters below the firmament, via the flesh (Sodom) and carnal mind (Gomorrah) the WOODEN boat (a tree CUT DOWN) moved by the winds =every wind of doctrine originating from the enemy of our souls.
The Word that was written was none other than the Word that was from the foundation, which is NOT A BOOK, but the nature of a person, and that person is a SPIRIT.
So this is why we have the admonition that man shall not live (or have the life of the Spirit) by bread/letter ALONE, but by every WORD/BREATH that comes from the mouth of the Father.
I have read the letter, continue to read the letter, will always read the letter, but it is DEAD LETTER, and must be resurrected by the Spirit in the heart of the believer, or it remains dead, ie. LIFE-less.
The REVELATION of Jesus Christ is what is happening when what we call "revelation" of the scriptures takes place in us, giving us "understanding" in the "twinkling" of an eye, being revealed in our "heaven", the mind of Christ.
This IS a proceeding word/breath of life, and is what witnesses to us that HE is not only ALIVE in us, but BREATHING.
As we share those revelations/breaths it is as us giving mouth to nose (discerning of spirits) RESUSCITATION, to whatever part of the body (His) is still "DROWNED" (NO BREATH) under the waters below the firmament/Spirit/heaven, IN US, as we are as the waters below the firmament, ALSO.
The water baptism is symbolic of being baptized into His death, ie. coming into agreement that you have taken YOUR last BREATH.
So, Peter, RISE UP and walk with Me in heavenly places. Blessings....
Wowzer, that was good Card! I mean it. I rarely print off something to just hold and read but I did with these words of yours.
Thanks!
cp
Man!
Cardinal, you should write a book.
Rebecca, like all of the called out ones, ARE THE LIVING BOOK.
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 07:08:39 AMCardinal, you should write a book.
Yup! :Sparkletooth:
:cloud9: Thanks guys, but as I've said before; it's not me, it's Him breathing. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 28, 2009, 11:57:23 PM
:cloud9: Uh, a word about proceeding words is called for here. When Jesus walked on the water, He was displaying Himself in His true form as the firmament/Spirit/heaven, as He was walking ABOVE the waters below. The waters below are ANYTHING IN THE NATURAL, including the BOOK.
Likewise, He told Peter to come out of the boat that represented man's feeble attempts to rise above the waters below the firmament, via the flesh (Sodom) and carnal mind (Gomorrah) the WOODEN boat (a tree CUT DOWN) moved by the winds =every wind of doctrine originating from the enemy of our souls.
The Word that was written was none other than the Word that was from the foundation, which is NOT A BOOK, but the nature of a person, and that person is a SPIRIT.
So this is why we have the admonition that man shall not live (or have the life of the Spirit) by bread/letter ALONE, but by every WORD/BREATH that comes from the mouth of the Father.
I have read the letter, continue to read the letter, will always read the letter, but it is DEAD LETTER, and must be resurrected by the Spirit in the heart of the believer, or it remains dead, ie. LIFE-less.
The REVELATION of Jesus Christ is what is happening when what we call "revelation" of the scriptures takes place in us, giving us "understanding" in the "twinkling" of an eye, being revealed in our "heaven", the mind of Christ.
This IS a proceeding word/breath of life, and is what witnesses to us that HE is not only ALIVE in us, but BREATHING.
As we share those revelations/breaths it is as us giving mouth to nose (discerning of spirits) RESUSCITATION, to whatever part of the body (His) is still "DROWNED" (NO BREATH) under the waters below the firmament/Spirit/heaven, IN US, as we are as the waters below the firmament, ALSO.
The water baptism is symbolic of being baptized into His death, ie. coming into agreement that you have taken YOUR last BREATH.
So, Peter, RISE UP and walk with Me in heavenly places. Blessings....
Dear Card, why do you call the Scriptures dead? I think you are confusing this verse:
Who also makes us competent dispensers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for
the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying." (Now if the dispensation of
death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,
(2 Corinthians 3:6-7 CLV)
The letter is the law, chiseled in stone. The letter is not Paul's epistles which are life.
I see the letter without the Spirit, dead.
cp
Isn't there a context, balance? How can scripture truly be dead if it's God-breathed and "will not return unto Me void"? I believe there are situations/circumstances that must be "properly divided", rather than saying it's either/or. For example, sometimes folks are blinded (for a while and for a purpose); sometimes we try to "only" hold to the letter and attempt to shut the Spirit out; in general, the Jews are unable to understand right now, until they are all brought into understanding and acceptance of the Messiah and "all Israel shall be saved". But in all this, PERHAPS IT'S NOT THE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE DEAD, BUT THE SPIRIT HAS YET TO BRING THEM TO GERMINATION WITHIN A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL. With the sower, it wasn't the seed that was dead, but it had more to do with the ground (circumstances, timing, condition) of the ground.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness...(ISV)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness...(NAS) II Timothy 3:16
Quote from: Tony N on October 29, 2009, 09:18:04 PM
Dear Card, why do you call the Scriptures dead? I think you are confusing this verse:
Who also makes us competent dispensers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying." (Now if the dispensation of death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,
(2 Corinthians 3:6-7 CLV)
The letter is the law, chiseled in stone. The letter is not Paul's epistles which are life.
Tony, You forgot the nearby preceding verses, "You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven,
not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart." (1 Co 3:2-3, CLT) We still engrave (photo-) lithographic stones to use ink for creating the written word. You can print Bibles all day long and nobody will come to life from the dead by it. You can burn a Bible or destroy stones, but you cannot harm God. You can read Scripture and acquire knowledge about God, yet not know Him. However, if God the Spirit inhabits you, He is known by you and what is pertinent to your life recorded in Scripture becomes know by you even without a Bible or being able to read. Reading it you will recognized from experience with God those things recorded in Scripture.
As authoritative as the Bible is what the Spirit has inscribed in the hearts and minds of those He has called out to Himself from the world. They are living Books from God. These books are, "...known and read by all men" (vs.2,) implying their ultimate salvation because of the nature of the kingdom of God like the smallest of all seeds, here "known" which means, "implanted." It is often overlooked how Paul says these Corinthians acquired the writing of the Holy Spirit in their knowledge, knowing God's expression and will and in their hearts, willing and delighting in God's will, choosing it by a new nature without needing to be told. The apostle says their status as living Scripture is by the Holy Spirit, "...dispensed by us." (1 Co 3:2) We can impart the experience of the Holy Spirit giving Divine Life into others' lives.
I may be fully alive, and dancing all over the place right in front of a person. But if they're deaf, blind, and have no tactile sensation, they may have absolutely no awareness of my life - and to them, though alive and well, I'm dead.
"And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: a sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."—Luke 8:4-8.
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2009, 05:42:06 AM
Isn't there a context, balance? How can scripture truly be dead if it's God-breathed and "will not return unto Me void"? I believe there are situations/circumstances that must be "properly divided", rather than saying it's either/or. For example, sometimes folks are blinded (for a while and for a purpose); sometimes we try to "only" hold to the letter and attempt to shut the Spirit out; in general, the Jews are unable to understand right now, until they are all brought into understanding and acceptance of the Messiah and "all Israel shall be saved". But in all this, PERHAPS IT'S NOT THE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE DEAD, BUT THE SPIRIT HAS YET TO BRING THEM TO GERMINATION WITHIN A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL. With the sower, it wasn't the seed that was dead, but it had more to do with the ground (circumstances, timing, condition) of the ground.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness...(ISV)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness...(NAS) II Timothy 3:16
:cloud9: How dead was the Word who was God breathed, until He arose?
We were lowered WITH HIM into the bondage of corruption = His death which is this mortal body, ie. HIS GRAVE. This is why it says that He subjected the same (lowered into this corruption) with hope, and that hope is Christ in us, because He was lowered with us and in us. When He said He would never leave us nor forsake us, never didn't have a beginning point, HERE.
It's the same principle as when He said that a future descendant was in someone's loins. It took an action/works to bring forth the manifestation of the descendant, and until that manifestation the one who was to come forth was "as good as dead", ie. NOT in manifestation. This is why faith without works is DEAD, and why the HG does the works.
So in actuality, the Word that was spoken about Him in the OT, still required Mary (as a type of the womb/soul/body of believers) to RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD, which is what we perceived as a birth in the natural, but was actually showing a type of the resurrection from the dead (with a glorified body) for the Spirit which was/is Christ, IN HER. Remember, He was born under the law under the OT, and as such His birth was a type and shadow for all of us under the NT.
Which is why the rending of the veil is passing from DEATH to life because it's the same as a bag of waters/veil being rent from off the child at birth. This is why it says a woman/soul shall be saved thru childbearing. We are to birth the Son from our "wombs". Eve, a type of our soul, was literally a womb-man. And He called THEIR name Adam; male/spirit and female/soul, made He THEM.
When I was pregnant my doctor told me that they don't even know what exactly it is that triggers a woman to go into labor. Again, according to pattern, only the hand of the Father can rend this veil.
We are the "bag of waters"/Word that contains the Son/Word which is Spirit, but He is "as good as dead", without manifestation. In fact, a child that never comes forth ALIVE out of the covering of the womb, is stillborn, ie. DEAD.
And; the Word/letter/natural/US will not return unto Me/the Father, void or devoid of the Spirit (which is Christ). Blessings....
PS. Good post, reFORMer... :thumbsup:
Maybe that's just pretty much over my head, Card. :search: I'm not saying you (or James) haven't spoken much truth here, but for right now I think I'll still tend to stick to the thoughts in my post - simply, that the Word God breathed is not dead, it's the condition of the recipient or ground that it "falls on". I can sort of understand my own thoughts, at least. :laughing7:
Unless I'm mistaken, aren't there many scriptures that talk about the written Word (logos - "Your logos is forever settled in the heavens") as being alive, quickening, sharper than a two edged sword, etc. On the other hand, I realize there are some scriptures that could be interpreted as alluding to the letter being dead - but again, perhaps interpretationally, open to opinion or POV (i.e., what's "the letter" - and what needed to happen before the Word took effect in their life - not that IT was dead ?). Are there any scriptures that straight out say the written Word is dead? I don't know any so direct as saying that, as opposed to the many that talk about its power. Personally, RIGHT NOW unless showed something different, I can't bring myself to say the written Word is dead...I believe it DOES need to be Spirit-revealed and activated within a person, but to say it's dead? Can't do it right now.
There is a vital difference between the scriptures and the word of God. I am enjoying this discussion very much. :HeartThrob:
Ron
My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens. In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the written Word, the Word revealed, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.
logos/rhema
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 30, 2009, 09:42:11 PM
There is a vital difference between the scriptures and the word of God. I am enjoying this discussion very much. :HeartThrob:
Ron
:cloud9: Yes, there is...... :thumbsup: and as the disciples said, we've seen Him and handled Him, the RISEN Word. Blessings....
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh. As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.
John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".
John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.
Scripture is the written Word of God - John 14:23 "if a man love me he will keep my Words"
Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".
Logos: Unchanging self-existent Word of God
Psalms 119:89 "forever o Lord thy Word (logos) is settled in heaven". Logos is the entire written Word of God.
Rhema: derived from the verb to speak. Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word. But God also has written Word and spoken Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
Quote from: Tony N on October 29, 2009, 09:18:04 PMThe letter is the law, chiseled in stone. The letter is not Paul's epistles which are life.
Yeah, you're right. The two things that the New Testament calls dead are the Mosaic Law -- calls that hopelessly dead to us & we're dead to it, so that we can be married to another according to Romans 7, 2Corinthians 3, etc. The other thing that the New Testament calls utterly dead are hearers of the Word that aren't doers of the Word. Says if you are a hearer, but not a doer, then you've looked into the perfect law of liberty in the Written Word, have turned away & forgotten the person you were meant to be. St. James gets a bit pointed about it that Nero's not doing the Word, other pagans aren't doing the Word, Jews aren't doing the Word, & here we've got Christians that aren't doing the Word & he points at the Christians & asks "HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT FROM THEM??"
Every line of the New Testament says to rejoice. Again, I say, rejoice because the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. If you're "input of the 5 physical sense
problem oriented" rather than sticking with the Covenant that's never changed that's declared in Holy Blood that you're free & richer than the dreams of avarice, then the Word of Christ doesn't yet dwell in you richly in all wisdom. The harder it gets, REJOICE ALL THE HARDER, KNOWING the the trying of your faith puts perseverance to work, & when you let a joyful faith have it's perfect work in perseverance, then you'll experientially BURST THRU into being perfect & complete WANTING NOTHING:
11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' says the LORD of hosts.
12 ' For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.'
14 "For thus says the LORD of hosts:
'
Just as I determined to punish you
When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,'
Says the LORD of hosts,
' And
I would not relent,
15
So again in these days
I am determined(unrelenting?)
to do good To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
Do not fear.
16 These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,'
Says the LORD." (Zechariah 8:11-17 NKJV)
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 04:38:25 AMShortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word. But God also has written Word and spoken Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
Just got back from more time with Lord Jesus that got cut short & I'm unsure of why yet. He got stern with me about not letting a new situation that's emerged in my life be the choking of all He's ever taught me about sticking with the Book REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE, EXPERIENCE, OR WHATEVER -- BOOK'S FIRST PRIORITY & FINAL AUTHORITY IN ABSOLUTELY ALL THINGS 'CAUSE HE SAID YOUR NEEDS ARE MET ACCORDING TO HIS RICHES IN GLORY BY CHRIST JESUS
REGARDLESS!!!! He was very pointed with me with very strong language that I won't get into on the boards about that because of the situations He was addressing. But the Written Word's first ALWAYS.
If anyone around here has been studying Song of Solomon, book of Zechariah's next on the agenda, if you're studying Song of Solomon deeply. It's 14 chapters on the
UNRELENTING blessing, GOODNESS, & prosperity that's coming as we're perfected in our portion of the Order of Melchezedec.
Amen, Martin. God's really telling you there's reason to rejoice, isn't He? Joy's coming...is it morning? :happyclap:
Proceeding Words do relate to the proper application of the Biblical principles, like when it comes to sowing and reaping by faith. The Book says what it says about it. Needs come up both with regards to our own growth/development and regarding the meeting of those urgent needs of contentment, development, health, peace, reconciliation, safety, or wealth, then our relationship with Holy Spirit does matter very deeply on what we're to give, where, and which particular parts of the Scripture apply with regards to the particular need that we're facing since so often there's an area where we're needing both His provision and His correction so that we never fall into that particular health or wealth ditch again to where we're "under the circumstances" which is never a Biblical position for a Christian to be in since we sit with Him in heavenly places far above all principality and power and every name that's named.
But the Word of Christ has to dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom and in all corresponding action in proportion to our manifestations for our continued growth and for what Holy Spirit is to illuminate in our particular situation as guidance to bring about the breakthroughs we need, the overcoming of opposition from the Adversary, and what's in the best interests of getting the Gospel out. The magnification of the Name of Lord Jesus and the beautification of the feet of those that carry the Gospel into all of the world is top priority. The matter is established by the two witnesses of the Written Word and Holy Spirit. Never ever by one alone. Voices, convictions, and ideas that contradict the Written Word are to be disguarded immediately in the behalf of the Written Word 'cause every thought is to be brought captive to the obedience of Christ. I've never had an experience with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or an angel that EVER contradicted a single Scripture.
Both have to agree or it's not valid. A lot of people are trying to discern how they know if they're hearing Him or if they're not. It's not hard. He sounds like the Book ALWAYS. I don't mean He always sounds like such and such a clique's doctrine in the Body of Christ. But He'll always sound just like the Book and He'll always guide according to the Book. The Book's first. Everyone I've ever known that's ever had a valid vision of Lord Jesus or of some other heavenly being could always get 'em to show it to 'em out of the Book out of the mouth of two or three witnesses -- no matter what was being said. When there's hesitancy to take you to the Book about it, rebuke it in the Name of Lord Jesus, even if it's claiming to be Lord Jesus, and stick with the Book. The Book isn't verified by signs and wonders. Signs and wonders have to be verified by the Book, otherwise you'll always be out of step with His plan, His timing, and will be open to losing your peace EASILY.
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 05:34:13 AMAmen, Martin. God's really telling you there's reason to rejoice, isn't He? Joy's coming...is it morning? :happyclap:
MORNING HAS BROKEN :Sparkletooth:
I'm going to need some time to process what Lord Jesus preached to me, but some very very interesting references include:
13 And the LORD answered the angel who talked to me, with good and comforting words. Zechariah 1:13
17 "Again proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts:
" My cities shall again spread out through prosperity;
The LORD will again comfort Zion,
And will again choose Jerusalem."'" Zechariah 1:17
5 For I,' says the LORD, 'will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.'" Zechariah 2:5
10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. Zechariah 2:10
13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!" Zechariah 2:13
1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. Zechariah 4:1
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
' I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.'
3 "Thus says the LORD:
' I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.'
4 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
' Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.'
6 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
' If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?'
Says the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 8:2-6 (I misread that last question for years. Yes, of course, it's marvelous in His Eyes, because this whole book of Zechariah is a book of REJOICING and a declaration of UNRELENTING goodness.)
9 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:
' Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built. Zechariah 8:9
8 I will camp around My house
Because of the army,
Because of him who passes by and him who returns.
No more shall an oppressor pass through them,
For now I have seen with My eyes. Zechariah 9:8
12 Return to the stronghold,
You prisoners of hope.
Even today I declare
That I will restore double to you. Zechariah 9:12
16 The LORD their God will save them in that day,
As the flock of His people.
For they shall be like the jewels of a crown,
Lifted like a banner over His land—
17 For how great is its goodness
And how great its beauty!
Grain shall make the young men thrive,
And new wine the young women. Zechariah 9:16-17
6 " I will strengthen the house of Judah,
And I will save the house of Joseph.
I will bring them back,
Because I have mercy on them.
They shall be as though I had not cast them aside;
For I am the LORD their God,
And I will hear them. Zechariah 10:6
12 " So I will strengthen them in the LORD,
And they shall walk up and down in His name,"
Says the LORD. Zechariah 10:12
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.
7 "The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:5-9
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
" The LORD is one,"
And His name one. Zechariah 14:8-9
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. Zechariah 14:14
I'm passing by a lot of meat in this book, just giving highlights for those with ears to hear what Lord Jesus is saying.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2009, 09:50:33 PMlogos/rhema
Biblically, the Charismatic doctrine built around these two words doesn't really exist from the standpoint of your
not finding "rhema" everywhere in the Greek New Testament that you might honestly expect to find it, if it had the meaning applied to it by many Pentecostals. Additionally, neither in the Septuignt nor in the Greek New Testament does "rhema" mean a Word proceeding from the Father. The Word proceeding from the Father as Son in John 1 is "logos." The closest you can come to of a "rhema" in the way that a Charismatic would use that idea would be if I successfully communicated some aspect of the Bible that's a living reality in my heart into your heart where no aspect of the living reality of it were lost in the translation, either thru your hearing/reading 75 CDs/articles of mine about it, or it having grown in me to the point to where the image of it from beyond my veil successfully transmitted beyond your veil, particularly with Holy Spirit's aid.
However, if it became a living reality in you to where the Son were reproduced in you, you'd of become a "logos," which sorta makes it a catch-22 on whether or not it's an actual "rhema" situation in the way that Charismatics try to use that Greek word. It's more the process that's being defined by "rhema" than the type of Word 'cause the highest manifestation of the Word known in New Testament Greek, that I know of, is "logos." St. Paul would use the phrase "partaking of his grace." The word translated "fellowship" is [conceptually though not linguistically] a kin to the only ideas I've ever seen conveyed by the New Testament Greek in the word "rhema" where "fellowship" would be the noun or object or intent of the Covenant and "rhema" would describe the process of spiritual copulation that reproduces that life in someone else by attending to their words, not letting them depart from your eyes, keeping them in the midst of your heart, and keeping your hands and feet heading towards it at all times, not turning to the right or left, as is described by Proverbs 4:20-27. The two words in Greek aren't remotely related linguistically, but conceptually [in the way a Charismatic Christian would understand it] are closer than logos/rhema.
Basically, the whole "logos/rhema" doctrine a lot of folks get into is about as sloppy as the John Hagee claim about Jesus saying more about Hell than heaven.
* just a disclaimer
I do not know who John Hagee is and I have not read or heard anything by or from the man.
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 04:38:25 AM
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh. As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.
:cloud9: That's not what I'm advocating by what I wrote. Blessings.....
Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2009, 06:00:00 AM
Proceeding Words do relate to the proper application of the Biblical principles, like when it comes to sowing and reaping by faith. The Book says what it says about it. Needs come up both with regards to our own growth/development and regarding the meeting of those urgent needs of contentment, development, health, peace, reconciliation, safety, or wealth, then our relationship with Holy Spirit does matter very deeply on what we're to give, where, and which particular parts of the Scripture apply with regards to the particular need that we're facing since so often there's an area where we're needing both His provision and His correction so that we never fall into that particular health or wealth ditch again to where we're "under the circumstances" which is never a Biblical position for a Christian to be in since we sit with Him in heavenly places far above all principality and power and every name that's named.
But the Word of Christ has to dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom and in all corresponding action in proportion to our manifestations for our continued growth and for what Holy Spirit is to illuminate in our particular situation as guidance to bring about the breakthroughs we need, the overcoming of opposition from the Adversary, and what's in the best interests of getting the Gospel out. The magnification of the Name of Lord Jesus and the beautification of the feet of those that carry the Gospel into all of the world is top priority. The matter is established by the two witnesses of the Written Word and Holy Spirit. Never ever by one alone. Voices, convictions, and ideas that contradict the Written Word are to be disguarded immediately in the behalf of the Written Word 'cause every thought is to be brought captive to the obedience of Christ. I've never had an experience with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or an angel that EVER contradicted a single Scripture.
Both have to agree or it's not valid. A lot of people are trying to discern how they know if they're hearing Him or if they're not. It's not hard. He sounds like the Book ALWAYS. I don't mean He always sounds like such and such a clique's doctrine in the Body of Christ. But He'll always sound just like the Book and He'll always guide according to the Book. The Book's first. Everyone I've ever known that's ever had a valid vision of Lord Jesus or of some other heavenly being could always get 'em to show it to 'em out of the Book out of the mouth of two or three witnesses -- no matter what was being said. When there's hesitancy to take you to the Book about it, rebuke it in the Name of Lord Jesus, even if it's claiming to be Lord Jesus, and stick with the Book. The Book isn't verified by signs and wonders. Signs and wonders have to be verified by the Book, otherwise you'll always be out of step with His plan, His timing, and will be open to losing your peace EASILY.
:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........
HOWEVER; there is HIDDEN MANNA in the Book that is VEILED by the literal surface understanding of the letter of the Word, and this hidden manna is even the Lord that came down from HEAVEN.
I posted part of this before, but this is an excerpt out of an article written by Messianic Rabbi, Rabbi Moshe Yosef Koniuchowsky, who was discussing that the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi's refuse to allow the use of PARDES for the study of the NT......
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for;
PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning
REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper
DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc.....and,
SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text.
Rarely does anything messianic come out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading. It has been accepted by Hebrew scholars that pardes is the only way to fully and fruitfully understand scriptures. YHWH sets the rules and we have no choice but to follow them.
However, on the other hand, when the Hebrew writers of the New Testament employ PaRDeS, all hell breaks loose, amidst accusations of paganism, Greek mythology, polytheism, plagiarism, Gnosticism, deception and unreliability.
By not allowing the Hebrew writers of the New Testament the same freedom and leeway they allow the writers of the First Covenant, they violate Torah, by engaging in abominations and detestable behavior before YHWH.
Moreover, they cheat themselves and others of the gift of salvation from this life.
For Messiah said "the Words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life."1 The Spirit world can only be revealed in the Spirit, and the Spirit of YHWH comes in 4 basic measures or levels." Now he's saying rarely does anything Messianic come out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading, and I've been trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to say that the HIDDEN MANNA which is the Word that was Spirit from the foundation of the world, is ALSO not seen in the literal primary first glance reading of the logos, which is literal natural letter, and not rhema, which is literally the breath that inhabits the letter(s).
This same idea is expressed by Paul, only in reversed contrast, when he spoke essentially that the idol was not anything, but rather the spirit behind it, was the real issue.
And again, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees;
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The literal is the house (Beth) that the rhema inhabits.
When we want to make a friend of someone, generally speaking that involves knowing where they live so we can visit. Once there, we don't talk to the house and exalt the house, but we seek to have relationship with the person who resides there. In the same way we are to get to know the Person of Christ intimately, not just the house He dwells in.
Ignoring this fundamental understanding is EXACTLY what made it possible for those that were alive then, to miss His appearing, because they were looking for a ruling King (heavenly King), not a suffering servant (literal flesh). The reverse is happening with the body today; they are looking for a suffering servant and not a ruling King. Blessings....
Quote from: CardinalThe literal is the house (Beth) that the rhema inhabits. Blessings....
wow! Just as we in our natural bodies are the temple of the Lord.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2009, 05:55:19 PM:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........
You're offended by testing every vision and spiritual experience by the Book? It's what I said, contextually. I'm in agreement about everything else you'd said.
Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2009, 06:03:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2009, 05:55:19 PM:cloud9: I think the part in red is the most offensive to me, as at no time did I say anything negative about the written Word, nor do I have hesitancy to take anyone there..........
You're offended by testing every vision and spiritual experience by the Book? It's what I said, contextually. I'm in agreement about everything else you'd said.
:cloud9: OF COURSE NOT
I would add as well, that when I say there is a difference between the scriptures and the word of God, I am by no means disregarding the scriptures, nor am I speaking negatively of them. I believe that Jesus describes one of the chief functions of the written word, the scriptures, when he says to the Pharisees:
Joh 5:39,40 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
Notice that they searched the scriptures, and why? Because they thought that it was in those scriptures that eternal life was found. But Jesus said that those scriptures had another function, to point to Him, who would give the eternal life they sought.
Jesus spoke the truth about the role of scripture, saying nothing negative about it, but showing it's true purpose. Today people tend to do the same thing that the Pharisees did though. Everything revolves around the Book. Think of why it is that people like to dress it up so much, putting expensive leather covers on it, guild the edges with gold, etc. Why some have to buy the big family Bible that just sits there as an heirloom on the coffee table for generations. The Jews do the same thing with the Torah today. They treat it as though it were a living person, if you are familiar with the practices of the synagogue today. They even have a burial for it when it is retired and a new copy takes it's place. I am not speaking about the meticulousness with which they copied the text, for that was vital for the preservation of the text. I am speaking about how the text itself is revered and thought of, when it itself testifies of something greater.
What would you think of someone who went into a restaurant and when he got the menu, studied it, even started to chew on it, but never ordered anything from it? Yet that is what so many do today with the scriptures. The menu is not the food, it tells you about the food. It points to the food, testifying to it so you want the actual food. The menu is not negated, but serves it's purpose wonderfully. So to does the scripture.
In the first century, virtually no believer possessed a copy of the scriptures, yet they all had the word of God, for he dwelled within them, just as he does us today. He is the food and drink we live off of, not the scriptures. They function as the menu, if you will, testifying and pointing to the true food and drink, Jesus himself.
I love and study the scriptures avidly. I am even working on a translation of it. Yet I know that it is that which testifies to the reality, the Word of God, Jesus himself. The scriptures are never called the word of God. The scriptures contain the word of God, but they are never called it. We have just been taught to read that into the text.
For example, in Hebrews 4:12 it is commonly taught that the word of God that is alive and active is speaking of the scriptures, but it is not. The very next verse continues the thought started by verse 12 in saying that nothing is hidden from HIS sight, meaning that the word of God that is alive and active is speaking, not of the words in a book, but the living word, Jesus, who sees all and searches all by means of his spirit.
Ron
Ron, though you make many good points, I disagree that the scriptures are never called the Word of God. Just one mention is "Your Word (logos) is forever settled in the heavens".
I guess we will each believe what we believe until God teaches us something different, and when we yield our will to His leading. I've stated how I understand it - that we have the written Word, the spoken/revealed Word, and Jesus the Word.
James.
well we all agree to differ Ron - Good post :icon_flower:
got go with a few others on this thread Ref, Card ,
we make an idol of the book ... tis how I see it..you could say been there
got the T shirt..THE HARD way.. :sigh:
Blessings to all
Taffy
I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu :laughing7:). But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself; that the logos is also the Word. (Psalm 119:89)
Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions. What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?
Have a great day Taf! James.
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 09:52:39 PM
I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu :laughing7:). But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself; that the logos is also the Word. (Psalm 119:18)
Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions. What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?
James.
James :icon_flower:
we could bang this about ALL DAY as whats been said by those on both sides within this thread..throw in Nathan Peacemaker and few others then a few the other side..etc..and guess what..it wont change a THING... lest the LORD desires :icon_flower:
over and out....nothing more to add buddy :icon_flower:
Blessings
:icon_flower:
You mean Psalm 119:89? And Jab, I by no means am saying that in our disagreement that you are idolizing the bible. I know of your heart toward our Lord, and of your love for him.
I mainly speak from my experience in former days where I treated scripture as though if I didn't have a copy to read and try to live by, I could not be pleasing to God, that I was missing something. That is my personal reason for speaking passionately about this in the way I do. Having lived so much of my life "by the book" I found I was missing the very one I thought I was living for, Jesus himself.
As to the scripture there:
Psa 119:89 Yahweh, your word is settled in heaven forever.
My answer would be that yes, in terms of whatever of his words are found in the holy writings (another of the terms scripture used therein) I definitely agree that they are settled just as David said. I guess if I had to disagree with anything it would be to say that his word is limited to what we find in the scriptures, as though David were only speaking of the writings of scripture, for God spoke many more things that were never recorded and continues to speak his word today, many more things not recorded in the scriptures, yet they are settled in heaven just the same.
Is his word found in scripture? Most assuredly. Is the sum total of his word found there? By no means, for he continues to speak today as he lives his life in each of us, things that will never (as far as we know) be recorded to or added to scripture.
:HeartThrob:
Ron
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 09:52:39 PM
I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu :laughing7:). But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself; that the logos is also the Word. (Psalm 119:18)
Jabcat,
What's important for a conclusion of this matter is that those that are cutting very fine lines about the authority of Scripture in this thread AREN'T dismissing the place of Holy Spirit in a believer's life as the unveiler of truth, the One Who passes along all He hears from Father and Son, and Who reminds us of all He's said to us. And I'm not hearing ANYONE that's posted on this thread thus far that majors more on the Holy Spirit's preeminence in a believer's life in their emphasis give any indications that the Scriptures aren't important and central to a believer's life. I'm not hearing any conflict, personally, unless there's a thought in the back of the minds of those who emphasize Holy Spirit's place in our lives that those of us who are cutting fine lines along Scriptural lines are in any way giving the Bible too much place in our lives.
To me, there will never ever be any such thing as giving the Bible too much place. Only makes greater room for Holy Spirit to further take over if your marriage is with the Bible rather than with certain teaching outlines on the Bible. It's those that have held to particular doctrinal emphasis at the expense of further expansion of our understanding of the Bible by Holy Spirit that have left a bad taste in the mouths of those that are leery of not giving Him enough place, while those of us that have seen Charismatic fruits, flakes, and nuts tend to be really quick with the NO, you can't give the Bible too much place as Holy Spirit is moving! roflol :laughing7: It takes
both to live balanced. It's why on my facebook page, I've had listed for the longest that my creed was the book of Ephesians rather than mentioning any of the creeds or giving links to the creeds of certain ministries, like a lot of UR folks will use on their website a link to the statement of faith of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association 'cause it's UR friendly but not laden with religious whatever. To me, what's important is the Spirit and the Book and not a former dead presentation of someone's previous understanding of the Book. That's always been my perspective, if I've been less clear at some times than at other times.
Additionally, Jabcat,
Threads that go in the direction that this one wound up going usually wind up getting many posts that don't reflect the whole of one's views, but that are a reaction to what one is currently viewing at that time as a threat to the life, health, advancement, thriving, sanctification, and wholeness of believers RIGHT THEN. Let someone wander back to the boards that's got a bit of a throwing Scripture out with the dirty bath water attitude and you'd be surprised about who around here suddenly becomes a bold Smith Wigglesworth about the place of the Scriptures in our lives.
Again, I was never perceiving any genuine conflict here on anything that was said on this thread, up to this point.
Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2009, 09:52:39 PM
I don't believe in making an idol of the book (or eating the menu :laughing7:). But I do believe if we're not careful we can diminish the Words of God, in part, by not believing what it says about itself; that the logos is also the Word. (Psalm 119:89)
Question to all who disagree - I've quoted that verse I don't know how many times throughout these types of discussions. What is it about that scripture that you don't believe or disagree with?
Have a great day Taf! James.
:cloud9: It's me again :winkgrin:
Ok, I love the Hebrew, and one of the best ways I've found to find out the thought of the heart of God on a matter, is to look at the FIRST time a word is used in the book, before that thought (which is His breath) becomes muddled thru all the "looking glasses that are darkened", as the ages progressed and man hardened his heart against His Spirit more and more, and the understanding that was given thru that word was lost in different contexts. That said, a lot of times you find them in Genesis first.
As in this case, the word "word" there that you quoted out of Psalms 119 is used FIRST in Genesis in this context:
Ge 15:1After these things the
word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
I think we can easily see here, that a Book is NOT the word that came unto Abram. The word used there means the following.....
Original Word Word Origin
rbd from (01696)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dabar TWOT - 399a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
daw-baw' Noun Masculine
Definition
1. speech, word, speaking, thing
1. speech
2. saying, utterance
3. word, words
4. business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)
Which comes from a root word that means......
Original Word Word Origin
rbd a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dabar TWOT - 399
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
daw-bar' Verb
Definition
1. to speak, declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing
1. (Qal) to speak
2. (Niphal) to speak with one another, talk
3. (Piel)
1. to speak
2. to promise
4. (Pual) to be spoken
5. (Hithpael) to speak
6. (Hiphil) to lead away, put to flight
The interesting one there to me, is, SING. When I asked the Lord years ago, what the "new song" was we were going to sing, to use Abram's vernacular, "the word of the Lord came to me" :winkgrin: and He said, "To sing means to raise the voice; raised as in speaking out of the realm of Spirit instead of out of the realm of flesh."
As a new creation man, we do sing a new song.
The other word there that blessed me, is the word "settled" out of Psalm 119. It means......
Original Word Word Origin
bcn a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Natsab TWOT - 1398
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
naw-tsab' Verb
Definition
1. to stand, take one's stand, stand upright, be set (over), establish
1. (Niphal)
1. to station oneself, take one's stand
2. to stand, be stationed
3. to stand, take an upright position
4. to be stationed, be appointed
5. deputy, prefect, appointed, deputed (subst)
6. to stand firm
2. (Hiphil)
1. to station, set
2. to set up, erect
3. to cause to stand erect
4. to fix, establish
3. (Hophal) to be fixed, be determined, be stationary
To stand in an upright position is EXACTLY what the Spirit does, as I suggested in my earlier post, ie. RESURRECT the Word. Both "to sing" and "to stand in an upright position", both word meanings carry the same thought/breath of God in that something is being RAISED UP.
And again, let me be clear as crystal, I'm not suggesting AT ALL, in any way, shape or form, that the written Word is to be done away with. Far from it, it's what I glean from. Just call me, "Smith"..... :winkgrin: :laughing7: Blessings....
Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2009, 10:46:53 PM
Additionally, Jabcat,
Threads that go in the direction that this one wound up going usually wind up getting many posts that don't reflect the whole of one's views, but that are a reaction to what one is currently viewing at that time as a threat to the life, health, advancement, thriving, sanctification, and wholeness of believers RIGHT THEN. Let someone wander back to the boards that's got a bit of a throwing Scripture out with the dirty bath water attitude and you'd be surprised about who around here suddenly becomes a bold Smith Wigglesworth about the place of the Scriptures in our lives.
Again, I was never perceiving any genuine conflict here on anything that was said on this thread, up to this point.
Hi Bud
more than a few veiws have been already raised on this thread..both sides of course...
and theres No conflict..just differing opinion....
:icon_flower:
Martin ya Subtle quips dont go amiss..and for mine KEEP em to yourself Bud....ty :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2009, 10:50:23 PMTo stand in an upright position is EXACTLY what the Spirit does, as I suggested in my earlier post, ie. RESURRECT the Word. Blessings....
Well, He's the backbone for it. I believe from some ancient documents that aion is actually translated as "marrow" which goes back to the understanding of some of aionios-life being the life that rightly belongs or pertains to God; the substance, core, strength, or standing of that life. While with aionios-punishment, He's the "marrow" or standing of that punishment as they're punished towards Him and not just by or from Him, but so that they'll return and live. Hence, strictly speaking, one part of Matthew 25:46 can be strictly eternal while the other half of that equation need not be, even passing by [and not even getting into] all of the stronger words used in the Greek about our life that are never applied to punishment.
:cloud9: Interesting since the life is in the blood, and the blood is made in the marrow of the bones. The bones are as the literal letter of the scriptures, and the life of the SPIRIT is in the bones, which is why not a bone of His was broken. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2009, 11:13:09 PM
:cloud9: Interesting since the life is in the blood, and the blood is made in the marrow of the bones. The bones are as the literal letter of the scriptures, and the life of the SPIRIT is in the bones, which is why not a bone of His was broken. Blessings.....
Actually, the bible says
the soul is in the blood.
Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
Better get the Concordant Literal Old Testament . . . before it's too late.
:cloud9: Tony, we went round that mountain once before on that scripture, but I would like to have a Concordant Literal of the OT. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Tony N on October 31, 2009, 11:34:42 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2009, 11:13:09 PM
:cloud9: Interesting since the life is in the blood, and the blood is made in the marrow of the bones. The bones are as the literal letter of the scriptures, and the life of the SPIRIT is in the bones, which is why not a bone of His was broken. Blessings.....
Actually, the bible says the soul is in the blood.
Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
Better get the Concordant Literal Old Testament . . . before it's too late.
and the BREATH of^^^^ Life^^^^^ is not the renewed SOUL....
the soul of man perishes..renewed by the LIFE that is ...a NEW HEART and NEW mind?
"Reading the Bible without the presence of the Spirit is like eating without swallowing."
Except in a restaurant, where I spend way to much time looking at the menu, before enjoying the banquet.
And to see with the eyes is to see in part, until you enjoy it from within; a true heart!
Thanks for the kind replies.
James.
I inquired (again) of God about this topic. He immediately let me know He had already let me know. I went to the written Word. These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).
I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
:14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you
Mathew 13:18-22 Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22; "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.
Mt. 15:3 "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition? ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."
Rev. 3:8 You have kept my Word and you haven't disowned my name ("Yesu")
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
John 8:31 Then Yesu was saying..."if you stay in My Word, you are truly my students"
37 "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"
John 17:6,8 "I made your Name apparent...they have kept Your Word. Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that I came out from You..."
I would love to purchase the CLV Old Testament, but I need a supplier that accepts my credit card, without having to setup an account through paypal, since paypal is such a pain in the butt.
Please help.
Thanks
rod
Is Christianity something you believe, like you believe algebra, in other words is it knowledge, do you become a believer because you acquire knowledge, and attest to it. And can knowledge come from the mind of one man, into the mind of another and transform you, or is that fruitless.
It seems to me, that Christ/Christianity is to be experienced first, then God can lend to that encounter, knowledge. If you encounter Christ, no one can take that away from you. Whereas knowledge, new information, learning, and bias, can turn you from what you once believed to believe something else.
Even if I know Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, I can, as did the Pharisees, miss God, and find Jesus saying to me. "You search the scriptures, but you won't come to me that you might have life"!
Lastly; And I must stop, I would love to write more, but if I shared all that was on my heart, you might think me a heretic:
"The Scriptures" (Bible) and "The Word" are not necessarily the same, though they can be...This is where God comes in at...We must not use the two "the bible" and "The word" as if they can be used interchangeably.
Dare I be so bold as to try and tell those here; who are much smarter than myself: That before the bible was written, it was spoken first...
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 30, 2009, 09:42:11 PM
There is a vital difference between the scriptures and the word of God. I am enjoying this discussion very much. :HeartThrob:
Ron
Quote from: rodm on April 02, 2011, 11:11:03 AM
Lastly; And I must stop, I would love to write more, but if I shared all that was on my heart, you might think me a heretic:
Do share more. Most of us here are heretics in the strict sense of the word, which comes from the Greek for "choice" and simply means holding a belief contrary to orthodox religious doctrine. :winkgrin:
Many here are more knowledgeable than I, so I will just comment that I wouldn't say "The Word" if I meant the Bible, as Jesus is our living word.
Quote from: rodm on April 02, 2011, 11:06:22 AM
I would love to purchase the CLV Old Testament, but I need a supplier that accepts my credit card, without having to setup an account through paypal, since paypal is such a pain in the butt.
Please help.
Thanks
rod
http://www.concordant.org/catalog/orderblank/index.html
Check or money order.
Quote from: rodm on April 02, 2011, 11:11:03 AM
Is Christianity something you believe, like you believe algebra, in other words is it knowledge, do you become a believer because you acquire knowledge, and attest to it. And can knowledge come from the mind of one man, into the mind of another and transform you, or is that fruitless.
It seems to me, that Christ/Christianity is to be experienced first, then God can lend to that encounter, knowledge. If you encounter Christ, no one can take that away from you. Whereas knowledge, new information, learning, and bias, can turn you from what you once believed to believe something else.
I think you can't know...
Faith is a gift/action from God. You can study until you are blue in the face but if God doesn't decide to give you something you simply won't believe.
Some experience can lead you to Jesus, but again that's God doing something.
God can use a zillion ways.
Here is Dream #1:
I was on the head of a beast, in a large body of water (Like the ocean). It was night and the darkness was so real it could be felt. The clouds above were very thick and black. The beast was thrashing as if it wanted to throw me off. I was so afraid!
I was holding on as tight as I could. Then I looked up, and when I did, the clouds opened and rays of light came through the clouds, with the light came that voice that I had heard before and knew so well.
He said "Rod; if I'm ever to use you, I must break you"!
I woke, wet with sweat, shaking...Saying as I woke, "thank you, Lord you haven't forgotten me"
Here is Dream #2:
I am in a church; it is a large church, one that in reality I have never seen. This was a dream that was so real; it was as if I were really there.
In the dream I am cleaning the bathroom floor, on my hands and knees, with a small brush. I stand as a priest comes into the room. I start to speak to him, about spiritual things, he listens, and then I leave the restroom and enter the foyer.
I notice the large room is built in a round fashion and that the windows are also large. People are leaving to go outside. As I exit the building, an earthquake hits, I look up and the sky is doing this "warp 9 star trek" kind of thing. I look to my left and I notice a man is in his car, his head is bleeding, he is dead.
Everyone starts to rejoice, saying "yes that is the big one"! I yell "No". "There is another one coming, and it is much larger"
I start to run for my home, and as I cross a large open area, I reach what looks like a ditch. I jump, but instead of a ditch it a huge open area, a chasm, the ground thousands of feet below! I start to fall so fast, picking up speed as I fall. I yell out "Jesus save me" Something grabs me and lowers me to the ground gently...I start running again.
Here is Dream # 3.
I see a street sign, the name on the sign is Jordan Road. I am walking and then I get picked up by someone in a van. He asks were I'm going and I tell him a few miles ahead.
Then as we reach the destination, I thank him, and look to my right, there is a house in a field. The house is glowing and the light is emanating from the inside of the house, and is visible to me even from a distance.
I know the people within the house are waiting for me, and that I have been somewhere, doing HIS will / work, and that I traveled in a spiritual way, but arrived back in the van.
The love and light from the house are supernatural, the love I feel for them, and the love I perceive from them is not normal love.
Here is Dream # 4:
I am in a large room, with many people, I recognize one or two people, the room is full of people from many different places.
I am standing on a raised platform, that is approx 6-8 inches higher than the floor.
Then I know I am suppose to speak the following words; "Holy Spirit come"...
When I speak the words, God's presence comes very heavy, most fall down, some start to weep and convulse, others are crying for joy.
The "word of God" equals in my mind hearing, not reading
"The word of the Lord" "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.
The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the NT about hearing, hardly anything about reading.
Everything written in the bible was spoken, before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.
We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible. WHY? Because the printing press is a fairly new invention, and many people throughout the ages couldn't read. This is true not only in the times of Christ, but in the dark ages.
Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a place where they have taken the place of God, in many circles today.
Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "The word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....
It just will not make sense...
I think God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, which is churchianity.
He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.
There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...
So there is no way they can fellowship with one another. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and do church with all the people there.
Paul had a moral failure / A thorn in the flesh...To keep him humble!
I believe Paul had a moral failure.
It was NOT bad eye site, that humbled him...How could it, but if he failed morally somehow, this would explain Romans 6-8.
Imagine...
God says to you, "I need you humble", "I'm going to give you bad eye sight"...NO, instead, "I'm going to brake your arm."
YOU, Protest, God, How will a broken arm keep me humble?
BUT IF YOU FAIL, YOU SIN...And your heart cries to God for relief, and God says "My grace is sufficient for you"...Do you not then find yourself going through Romans 6-8 in your own personal life?
God's word is true.
The word and the bible are NOT necessarily the same thing. Today we use the terms "The Word" and "The Bible" as if they are always the same thing. The scriptures can become alive to you, and they are true, but without God, making them real and alive to you, or giving revelation of truth to you, you are sunk. Although the bible is true, it just has no life apart from God... What God can and does do is impart life to you from the scriptures.
We see this all throughout the OT and NT... In the OT, it was "the word of the Lord came unto so Jeremiah". In the NT, it was "Peter rise and eat".
Today the so-called church has defined Christianity by "The Book". Why? Because they can control that, via their so-called doctrines, preaching, and one man shows. They have refused for the longest time to let "THE BODY" minister to one another as the Spirit leads.
But once you accept the truth that God's word can be from the scriptures, but not solely from the scriptures, then you find yourself saying "Speak Lord, here am I"...He may speak by His Spirit, by The Scriptures, or by His still small voice.
History proves this to be true along with the scriptures quoted above...
History shows us, the dark ages, when there was no printing press, and people couldn't read or write. Yet we know there were some people who KNEW Christ, there was Madam Guyon, and Jean Nicholas Grou, just to name a two.
Then of course the disciples couldn't read, but they had the living word, became flesh which was Christ. They lived by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God, as should we...Jesus speaks of hearing much more than reading. He also condemns the Pharisees for looking to the Torah, BUT not being willing to come to Him, the word of life.
And so change is coming, we will see it soon, and when it happens, it will rip this so-called Christianity from the hands of these corrupt churches and there doctrines will become invalid. Overnight their religious live will become irrelevant, as we see the body of Christ manifest in our.
IT's NOT The Bible:
I'm just not sure the bible can be the one common denominator that leads us into truth, why do I say that?
Because many generations passed with people NOT having access to the scriptures, and many through out time could not read, so the inspiration has to be something else, something everyone could have access to at all times.
This is where I think George Fox was right, the Quakers had some truth.
Also look at brother Lawrence " [link to www.amazon.com]
Brother Lawrence said it was while looking at a tree that God revealed himself to brother Lawrence.
The "word of God" equals in my mind hearing, not reading.
As in my sheep hear my voice, man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat. You see what I mean
"The word of the Lord" "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.
The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the NT about hearing, hardly anything about reading.
Everything written in the bible was spoken, before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.
We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible.
Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a place where they have taken the place of God, in many circles today.
Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....
It just will not make sense... As far as people studying "The word" vs studying "The scriptures"
I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word.
Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and "The Word"...
I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, but instead by the Spirit of promise, leading us into all truth?
We would have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leading only on "The book".
[/quote]
Do share more. Most of us here are heretics in the strict sense of the word, which comes from the Greek for "choice" and simply means holding a belief contrary to orthodox religious doctrine. :winkgrin:
Many here are more knowledgeable than I, so I will just comment that I wouldn't say "The Word" if I meant the Bible, as Jesus is our living word.
[/quote]
OK I'll share my heart. I hope I don't offend anyone, and if anyone has any ideas about my 4 dreams, I would love to hear what you think they mean...
Below my testimony, are 4 dreams. I have dreams, most I don't remember, and the ones that I do remember are usually stupid. But these 4 were as if I were really there...I would love to know what you think they mean.
Blessings to you
rod
MY STORY:
I came from a violent home, (drugs, alcohol, gun shots, being chased with knives, people thrown through picture pane windows), in fact I was born three months early because my father kicked my mother in the stomach, I was born weighing two pounds nine ounces, this was DEC of 1956.
As early as 7yrs old, I was out on the streets till 3-4am, I was put in three orphanages... One night I remember, my father snuck into our house, he put a loaded pistol in my hand and told me too shoot my sisters and my mother, it was crazy. Through all of this, (which I wouldn't change), I came out a fairly normal kid, I was involved in sports and didn't do drugs, or drink. I thought I was a survivor, wanting only too make it through another day.
At age 16 (in 1974) I started too sense a need in my life, an emptiness that I couldn't explain. I knew I had too find God/Jesus, but who was HE? I had no idea where too find HIM, so I went to the local library to find books concerning world religions, God, and the occult. At the library I met an ex hippie (Gary Osborn) he saw my books and decided too share the message with me. Gary invited me to pray in the back of his V.W. so I did, I remember saying "God forgive me for my sins, and whatever you have for me I want it all".
Well at first nothing happened I expected, lightening or something. Gary said, "Just go home and praise God" I said, "What's that, mean" Gary said, "Just thank him" So I did just that.
The remaining is sacred to me, before I asked Jesus into my heart, I never heard voices, I never drank, and I never did drugs, but one week after meeting Jesus while in the middle of my last class (during high school) A voice, just as clear, as someone standing next too you, spoke, and as the voice spoke it said to me, "rod tell them about Jesus" I was surprised, but unafraid, I put my hand over my mouth, since I didn't want anyone too think I was talking too myself, I said (to whoever spoke too me) "I don't know what to say" the voice said "don't be afraid, I'll give you the words to say" To this day I don't remember my words, but I spoke too those kids about Jesus and salvation, their mouths just dropped open and then, class was over, I walked out of that room, feeling like I had never felt before.
The next day was Saturday; I slept in the living room on an old couch. When I woke it was early and I decided too turn on the TV, to watch my favorite cartoon, the roadrunner.
As I sat there watching the TV, I got up and looked outside, everything was so beautiful, (I never appreciated nature, I just wanted too make it thru another day). BUT now it was so pretty, I sat back down on the couch, and as I did I was somewhere else.
I was sitting at a long rough hewn table, to my right was God, the father, I couldn't see him, to my left was Satan, him I could see (he looked like a man only very big) then in front of me was Jesus, three bowls appear, filled with what looked like porridge. Now the father spoke and said Satan dismiss yourself, Satan stood and screamed, then vanished. Three bites were taken out of the bowl. Then all at once I was watching myself from a distance, walking with Jesus up a grassy pathway. Jesus was speaking to me but from a distance I couldn't hear him, I could see myself shaking my head (like I understand) then thru my eyes I saw the house where I had been sleeping.
I didn't know what had happened; I'd never experienced anything like that, but I knew two things, I had too find a pastor to talk too, and I KNEW GOD loved me and wanted something from me...my total surrender, my life totally under his control, every second, moment by moment, and I was consumed with this one desire, to live too PLEASE HIM. Let me give you an example: When a friend from school would come over and say, "Hey rod." "Let's go to a show" I'd say, "hold on." Then Id go in the bathroom and pray, "Lord should I go?" Sometimes the Lord would say "go", sometimes "no" At times He was silent, when this happened I would look inside, to my heart, (Spirit), (see Colossians 3:15) if I had peace I would go, If not, Id stay home.
As I practiced this new desire, (surrender), I noticed the voice of the Lord became more frequent and clearer, (John 10:27). It always had to agree with scripture. The word of the Lord will always agree with the true meaning and / or the true interpretation of scripture).
I new I needed to get a bible, I went to a bookstore and I got the largest family bible Id ever seen, with pictures and everything. I was so happy. That night the voice of the lord said, "Read Matthew 5." I had to look in the contents; I didn't know where Matthew was. When I found it and started too read, the words became a ("Word of the Lord to me") they just jumped off the page, they seemed to come alive, and they filled me, with hope, love and peace. Now I knew God loved me, and my sins were gone, I was forgiven...
As time passed I grew, sometimes Id walk into a busy office or building (like a D.O.L) and the Lord would say go sit by that guy, I would strike up a conversation, then say "you don't know me but I'm a Christian and God is going too share with me about your life" I don't mean simple things like "you have the flu" or "Headaches", but deep, personal things that others couldn't know or even guess. People would usually start to cry and ask "how did you know?" I'd say "I didn't but God knew".
One of the best lessons from the Lord concerning trusting Him happened like this; I was traveling from Philly to Atlantic city, I got on the road, and started to hitch a ride, (it wasn't illegal at that time) within one hour and twenty minuets I was in Atlantic city (which was a one hour drive!) I got 4 different rides, as I stepped into each vehicle I boldly proclaimed "Hi I'm a child of the King, and God's going to bless you for picking me up!" God gave me very personal details about each of those people and all but one came to Christ.
When I got to Atlantic City, God said "Rod, when you get to the prayer meeting tonight I want you to give all your money, to Johnnie Diaz". I said "Lord that's all I've got?" (About 300.00) God replied; "you take care of your brothers and sisters in the Lord and I'll take care of you." So upon arriving in Atlantic City, I secretly gave all my money to Johnnie, (this was to cover something for Johnnie that was very personal, so I know he didn't share this with anyone).
That night I asked myself "how am I going to get back to work, tomorrow? I didn't have a penny, not even enough for bus fare, and in my spirit I knew I wasn't to hitch hike, but instead the Lord wanted me on the bus. After sleeping that night and leaving the brothers house the next day, (where the meeting had been held), I started walking to the bus station. As I got closer and closer, I was imagining, "is the drivers going to just "know" he's suppose to let me ride for free?" But as I approached the depot, a brother named "Chicky" came out of his house and said "rod I think the Lord wants me to give this to you." It was exactly what I needed for bus fare!
This has been a short summary of my life, oh one more thing. Life didn't continue this way for me, I ruined that. I don't live surrendered moment by moment now, or my heart is hidden from me, I'm just not sure. Where does man find the will and desire to live such a life, or is it a gift as is repentance?
Should I confess the most difficult thing in my life with you? After all we are strangers! After living this way for sometime and seeing my life change, and having peace beyond comprehension, I disobeyed the lord after he spoke too me. I lived to obey him, it was my passion...I knew a man, he was a believer, and his name was Bob Chorney. Bob was like the father I never had. Bob is dead now, I loved him very much, and we forgave one another.
One day I went to visit Bob, we talked and prayed for a while then Bob said, "rod", "Paula is gone (Bob's wife). "Why don't you go to dinner with me"? Immediately the Lord spoke and said "rod don't go" I said Bobby I can't go. He said "oh rod go with me ". I said Bob I can't. I prayed back too the lord, in my mind saying "Lord it will be alright, you know I don't drink, I'll just eat something with Bob" The Lord didn't reply. So we went. All was well until a brother named Aggie Rodriguez, started to argue with Bob, I couldn't watch, so I started to leave, as I went outside Bob said "Rod if your going to walk you might as well walk all the way back too Washington, and don't come back" OH the pain. Well the next morning, Bob and Paula showed up, Bob said "rod forgive me I'm so sorry", the Lord spoke instantly and said "rod forgive him, go too him tell him it's ok and that you love him". I said "Lord I can't. I won't, it hurts too bad".
Soon I left for Washington. My life, outside of God's will, was torture. No peace, no answers, sin in total control.
Jean Nicholas Grou says, "God delights in two things, for a man too know God and too know himself." I now know what I'm capable of without him, living life for myself, Sinning, being rebellious. I want to recommend a couple books that I discovered a few years ago, the book is "Practicing the presence" BY Lawrence and Labach, there are two versions this one is best and includes Labach's testimony. "Hinds feet on High places" and "The breaking of the outer man for the release of the spirit" By Watchman Nee are very good also.
Now let me share some dreams/ thoughts/and opinions:
1).How do you describe this LIFE? As a Christian it's hard to do. As I recall moments in my own life, I think of times of stillness, in the midst of activity or in the quiet of night. The presence of His Spirit was there, sometimes speaking other times He was silent, yet the undeniable presence of His Spirit was so real. You couldn't describe it too anyone else, sometimes he was so near, almost physical, at other times He was, just felt, deep in your heart.
I could at times think, and He would answer. Sometimes the answer was spoken, and at other times it was a still small voice in my heart.
Sometimes I would see a person, and while looking at them, I knew about them.
I recall the passion to tell others about him at any given moment, looking for such an occasion never caring where I was, or who was near by.
Constantly His Love moved over me in waves and yet it abode, never departing. I would wake up in the middle of the night and He was there, like a mother hen.
I remember the love for others that was not my own. I remember feeling, and being, separate from the world yet still in its midst.
I recall not worrying about the kind of car I drove, or the condition of my clothes, knowing that He was fully aware of all these things.
I recall being invited out for dinner with brothers, and thinking (silently between myself and God), "Lord I don't have any money, but I'm hungry" and then someone would say "hey rod I'll buy ok?" Do you have days like this?
Do you remember days like this from your past? I believe this is something no one can take from us. This is why WE MUST EXPERIENCE GOD! Experiencing God is more important than the scriptures! You see if you experience HIM then, Bible revelation can be added to you. But if you don't experience HIM first then Bible knowledge is just a compilation of facts, they are true, but they don't have any place of reference, without HIM.
2).Most of my life, at least as far back as I can remember I've had a desire and love for God/Jesus. As I've grown older, I've seen many things in "Christendom", I've seen communes (come and go in failure). I've seen myself and other brothers walk in their own ways (you might call it backsliding), I've been hurt by supposed brothers in Christ, I've seen TV preachers act cocky, and ridiculous, I've seen people chase tithes and money, I've seen people in big churches (faithful tithers) go without help while in need, I've seen people chase their own kingdom and building programs. I've seen people pretend to prophecy, knowing they were not HEARING from HIM, (and in failure, excuse themselves by saying they were practicing), I've seen names in lights (but not Jesus name). I've seen people destroyed by the shepherding movement. I've seen men of god after devoting their lives to "the ministry" destroyed after a single mistake, instead of forgiven. On and on I could go... So does any of the above remind you of the book of acts or the first group of believers?
3).The first century church in the New Testament turned the world upside down in a short time NOT because of their words alone but because of the LIFE residing IN them. This was a spirit thing...NOT a mental thing, it wasn't an agreement with certain doctrines or creeds, it wasn't from arguing the scriptures, it wasn't from forming a new church or denomination, they had and were living LIFE like Jesus 24/7 every moment of each day, a life of submission, pleasing the father, a life defined by others as "seeing they had been with Jesus".
4). In the 1860's 1900's 1940's 1960's we saw the beginning of several moves of God upon people who were desperate to know HIM.
Then shortly after in each time period, (even in the new testament) we see charlatans, hirelings move in among the sheep of God, these men who really don't know the master teach doctrines not from revelation via an intimate relationship. But from the minds of others who were also like themselves, who teach only from the tree of knowledge: From the mind of one man to the mind of another, thereby polluting the little sheep and convincing others, because the so-called doctrines of men are believed by the masses also. This is such a subtle thing that it can inhibit your walk, because you're not discipled but instead taught by men who have never had an intimate walk with God. So as believers we must know Him and find revelation that agrees with the scriptures, and or that changes our understanding of the scriptures.
5). A Christian historian tells a true story about a peasant in the 1600's living under the rule of the Catholic Church. The peasant is working the field and a cardinal and his procession go by, as they approach the cardinal speaks to the peasant, about a new edict from Rome. The cardinal quotes a verse of scripture; the peasant replies that the cardinal quoted the verse incorrectly. The cardinal says to the peasant "How would you know, being you are unlearned and illiterate?" The peasant replies: "because the spirit IN ME said you quoted it wrong"!
How true this is, if we only have the book and don't hear that still small voice on the inside, from the throne of our heart the center of HIS kingdom! Then I fear we miss the most important piece of intimacy, yet HIS Word and HIS scriptures work together, one a current guide for us THE NOW and the other, which can still speak but was spoken to another hundreds of years ago, serves as a foundation. But We live by breath, and the words that proceed from the mouth of God, "My sheep know my voice" "for those who are sons of God are led of the spirit of God"