The mark of the beast.

[glenda]

Where can I go and discuss the book of revelation and bible prophecy??

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  You're in the Book of Revelation section........ so.........feel free.  :thumbsup:

[glenda]

Thanks! But I'm sorry, i was being a bit sarcastic.. sorry, guess I'm a bit disillusioned, never met a person who knows anything about bible prophecy or willing to discuss.. sorry, maybe I'm in a mood.. :mshock:

[sparrow]

you sarcastic? But look at your cute little avatar!! 
That avatar is so anti-sarcastic.  :laughing7:

Well,  it's true!
look... it's the cutest avatar ever.
lol.

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Shela
"Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' "
Caesar is not in covenant with God. Caesar was used by those in covenant with God to persecute the people of new covenant. Just like they used the Romans to kill Christ.

"and qualifies for the 'mark' of Cain..killer of brethren..."
But Cain was in covenant with God that is how he got the mark.
Compare Revelation with what we have clearly written elsewhere, which is the point the harmonization of the scriptures. This way Revelation which is highly symbolic does not have to mean 100 different things to 100 different people:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 18:23   And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorcerers were all nations deceived. 
Rev 18:24   And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. 
It is first and foremost the "covenantal" earth.
To be continued.

[Barry DuPont]

Mat 23:30   And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 
Mat 23:31   Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 
Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 
Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? {the sentence of the Valley of Himmon}
Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
{the covenantal earth}
from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 
Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 

The Romans are being used but it is the Jews that are the covenant people.
Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

Thanks! But I'm sorry, i was being a bit sarcastic.. sorry, guess I'm a bit disillusioned, never met a person who knows anything about bible prophecy or willing to discuss.. sorry, maybe I'm in a mood.. :mshock:

:cloud9: I guess I missed that part.  :mblush: As for the lack of participation, there are quite a few on this board that feel the same way I do, ie. that the first line of the book of Revelation (notice it's singular and not plural) says it all about the content.

So by way of explanation: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"; revelation there meaning to reveal or uncover, when tied in with Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory, and John stating that he was IN THE TEMPLE on the Lord's day, knowing that WE are the temple of God, and Paul talking about the glory that is to be REVEALED, IN US.............

Well, for my part, that takes the focus off of the realm of outside events so much and into symbolic meaning of God's dealings with the "fractional" parts of man, ie. spirit, soul, and body, as well as His body as a whole. My  :2c: Blessings to all.......

[Molly]

The Romans are being used but it is the Jews that are the covenant people.

Can you elaborate on this?  Are you saying the covenant people are held to a higher standard by God?  Aren't we now the covenant people [new covenant]?

And what does that have to do with the mark of the beast?

[Barry DuPont]

Can you elaborate on this?  Are you saying the covenant people are held to a higher standard by God?  Aren't we now the covenant people [new covenant]?
And what does that have to do with the mark of the beast?

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? 
Rom 3:2   Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Circumcision is a covenantal type but it became their idol. Jerusalem is a type. Their Kings like Solomon (666) was a type.
"behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here" and that was the point.
Revelation is about the move from a trust in types and figures which "those who say they are Jews" and apostate Israel had, to a move to the substance of the New Covenant.
Revelation is about this battle. And it is this point that fits like a glove with the rest of the New Testament writings.
Blessings Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Also:
Jhn 19:14   And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 
Jhn 19:15   But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. 
   
This brings the Romans into the covenantal battle. But the Romans are not the essence of that battle.

Blessings Barry

[Molly]

Circumcision is a covenantal type but it became their idol.

Their idol, how?  You mean pride?  That they were better than everyone else because God talked to them?  But, they also seem to kill those among themselves to whom God talked--the prophets.

Does a circumcised heart avoid these problems?

[Barry DuPont]

Pride is very close Molly IMHO.
The bible is about love.

Love had never been fully revealed under the old covenant. So those "priests" were ill equipped to be a "light to the world".
Remember a priest is never just a priest for themselves but for "others".

Under types and figures which were entrusted to Israel, (even when it was a Gentiles that was involved like the queen of the South), salvation was then "of the Jews". This is where salvation was going to come from. But this created a friction between those who wanted to hold on to their idea of being "set apart" and "holy" through the law. This is how circumcision became an idol and how even some so called Christians back then preached "another gospel". We see this in Galatians, 1,2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, Philippians and many other areas.

Types and figures never really revealed God's true love. Christ did. So those who had a trust in the old could not be entrusted with the message of love. Revelation is about that changeover.
Rev 18:23   And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorcerers were all nations deceived. 
Rev 18:24   And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. 

Blessings Barry

[sheila]

  Hi Barry,

   Thanks for clarifying,brother. You know,I was thinking about

Adam and the covenant God made for a kingdom with

him,,dominion over the earth. The prince of this world also

came to him as an adversary and essentialyy 'killed' him

through leading into disobediance

   For dust you are,and to dust you will return


   In Jesus Christ these two covenants joined into one...

   He is both King and Preist...new heaven and new earth

....the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our

Lord

                                Sheila

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Sheila,
Reads similar to this IMO:

Gal 4:22   For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 
Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 
Gal 4:24   Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 
Gal 4:25   For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, {when Paul wrote this letter} and is in bondage with her children. 
Gal 4:26   But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 

Blessings Barry

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[Dallas]

Dallas, I see where you are coming from. IMHO however it misses the point. Revelation is predominantly about covenant issues much like Hebrews.
Blessings Barry

I agree with you. Don't know what we are missing on. I even go further and say that revelation is entirley about the fulfillment of the outpouring of the culmination of the old covenant. Revelation is a covenantal document dealing with the Jewish covenant agreement of Exodus 19.

Do you see all things fulfilled, or partially?

I agree with alot of insertions you have related, I do however think in order to get a more well footed and reality based understanding since these events were of reality events you can't exclude culture and history from scripture.

[Barry DuPont]

Suspected that I very much neglected to try and find more common ground. My Bad :)
All thinks fulfilled is my opinion.
Barry

[glenda]

Hey Shela
"Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' "
Caesar is not in covenant with God. Caesar was used by those in covenant with God to persecute the people of new covenant. Just like they used the Romans to kill Christ.

Just the other day I was thinking how the image of Caesar was on the coin when Jesus said "render unto Caesar.." And thinking of all the u.s. pres. on u.s. money.. rev 13:13-the hiroshima & nagasaki fire pinpoints final "prince to come", note u.s. architecture senatatorial republic, courts [half iron toes/western/half not, "won't really cleave"].. just some random thoughts..

[glenda]

you sarcastic? But look at your cute little avatar!! 
That avatar is so anti-sarcastic.  :laughing7:

Well,  it's true!
look... it's the cutest avatar ever.
lol.

Thanks! :)) :)) that was very nice and made me smile!

[peacemaker]

The mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits
or characteristics common to humans beings, when in opposition to the Spirit.

"The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."

[Beloved Servant]

Yes peacemaker, I understand and see it all around.
And it reminds me of an old B&W TV show called The Twilight Zone that I saw many years ago.
In one episode people had to wear grotesque masks portraying hideous spirits of greed and lust and other common spirits for a period of time in order obtain an inheritance due them.
Thing is, when they took off the masks, their faces were permanently disfigured into the horrible appearance of what they held deep inside them.
Hmmm... I wonder if Rod Serling read the Bible.

[SQ]

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." - Rev. 13:16-17

What does this mean if not a literal mark?
I haven't read the entire thread yet so my answer may be there.
I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:

[Barry DuPont]

Hi SQ.
My take at this time:
Rev 13:16   And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 
Rev 13:17   And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 
Rev 13:18   Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. 


The Jews were somewhat free to practise their religion (they had their temple and they had their synagogues in every city) and so the Christians were also free being seen by Rome as sect of Judaism at least to begin with. Once the Jews really started prosecuting the Christians (like Saul before he was converted) and once the Christians started bringing in Gentiles without circumcision (the mark of the beast) then they lost privileges under Rome. This made it very hard economically for them. If they had claimed allegiance to Judaism they would have been ok. Which is also what the "Judaizers" were preaching in some if not all of the seven churches. They would simply say "I became a convert of Judaism" and they would have been ok.
The pressures were very great and the Judaizers had this on there side. (Paul speaks of them very often in his letters.) 666 is the number of the old covenant economy (yearly salary) of the old covenant king "Solomon". This was not the "wisdom" of Christ. For one greater than Solomon had arrived. The king of kings. 

Barry

[Cardinal]

I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:

:cloud9: Buying and selling denotes someone has lack, whereas in His Kingdom there is no lack, only overflowing abundance. Which mind you have operating in you determines what the works (hand) of the hands are. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[glenda]

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." - Rev. 13:16-17

What does this mean if not a literal mark?
I haven't read the entire thread yet so my answer may be there.
I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:

I have to say I agree.. although every single thing in the Bible has a spiritual meaning and lesson, it's still all quite literal. Also every prophecied judgment in the Old Testament, except for in the case of Ninevah when they repented and changed their Godless course, was literal (fiery) judgments/consequences. The whole world has just about been changed into a different world (from Christendom established after Christ, to the false prophet/er,teaching, which changed the world). This is bound to have consequence. If judgment/collapse/apocalypse was literal in the past, why would it not be now. I believe it will take yet some time, for there needs to be a more concrete worLd governing in place and also more of a global economy ($gold of babble on&on), but I very truly believe the Lord wants the Book of Revelation to be understood, for at both the beginning and the end it speaks of those who read and understand being blessed. There's just two or three 'locks' in the book which keeps much of the vision "hidden for a time".. but once those are unlocked it's pretty much an open book like any other, and though it yes has spiritual meaning and allegory, clear reading of it, to me, still makes for the most logic.