I would like to purpose that the mark of the beast in revelation is circumcision (to keep the law).
On the forehead (of the serpent image and so mind set) and on the right hand (made with hands). It was thus a confidence in the flesh as Paul speaks about in Phil. 3:1-8.
It was promoted by (but not necessarily exclusively) "those who say they are Jews but lie". [IE the "Judaizers" had infiltrated the seven Churches as they had done in the Churches of Galactica.] (my spelling may be wrong on that one).
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: I would propose it's not a coming thing, but a thing that happened to all in the garden as a result of one man's sin, or missing the mark, the mark being the mind of Christ.
The revelation of Jesus Christ, ie. Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory, is being revealed in a people called by His name/nature.
Carnal mind = mark in the forehead
Works of the flesh = mark in hand (hand speaks of works)
I would say that there is some common ground there Cardinal.
Quote:
Carnal mind = mark in the forehead
Works of the flesh = mark in hand (hand speaks of works)
End quote.
Would you say the same thing about this text?
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Barry
Act 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
Act 28:4 And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
{To come under the law}
Act 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Barry
The mark of the beast is obedience to Caeser.... the idea of a mark or a sign on the forehead and hand is a well known biblically established Jewish figure-or-speech. It has always made reference to being mindful and doing the things of. In this example you see that as concecration of the first born that also signs or marks are used to charge people with being mindful and to do a certain ceremony.
Exodus 13: 2"Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me."
6"For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD.
7"Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders.
8"You shall tell your son on that day, saying, 'It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.'
9"And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.
10"Therefore, you shall keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year.
16 "So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."
The same idea is through out the scriptures and still used as a common figure of speech in Jerusalem. As far as the mark of the beast, it was talking about worshiping caesar and doing what he wanted, those who wouldn't worship caesar and do what he said were thusly treated and eventually killed.
The mark of the beast isn't an actuall mark, like in Exodus, the mindfulness of remembering the salvation of God for the jews from Egypt and doing the ceremony.... the mark of the beast is likewise a description on peoples mind and actions.
Wow! Barry,
Just 'got' your post. Thinking about the most subtil of all
beasts of the feild[serpent]The accusation of being a murderer
[of which Saul/Paul would not deny/Stephen.
Strange indeed how the 'serpent' was shaken off
into the FIRE[lake/bundles?sticks /tares for burning]
and Paul was NOT harmed....Paul not harmed because he was
born prematurely?[speculating here] secound death not harmed
him? Due to mercy of God/Christ shown unto him? Change
that occurred when a 'flash of light' occurred and Paul heard
the voice of the Lord?
Thanks Barry!! This post blessed me so much :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Dallas on October 22, 2009, 11:28:36 PM
the mark of the beast is likewise a description on peoples mind and actions.
perfect imperfection!
...and in Him we are made perfect!
We do not disappear into oblivion in Christ!
We are, as intended, ONE!
Quote from: sheila on October 23, 2009, 03:27:36 AM
Wow! Barry,
Just 'got' your post. Thinking about the most subtil of all
beasts of the feild[serpent]The accusation of being a murderer
[of which Saul/Paul would not deny/Stephen.
Strange indeed how the 'serpent' was shaken off
into the FIRE[lake/bundles?sticks /tares for burning]
and Paul was NOT harmed....Paul not harmed because he was
born prematurely?[speculating here] secound death not harmed
him? Due to mercy of God/Christ shown unto him? Change
that occurred when a 'flash of light' occurred and Paul heard
the voice of the Lord?
Thanks Barry!! This post blessed me so much :HeartThrob:
Another wonderful post by you, Sheila. I sure do love to read your thoughts.
Anne
Hey Sheila.
It is an interesting text is it not!
Glad you got something out of it. :)
Barry
Hey Dallas
There is imo a clear connection between the verse you brought up and placing the mark of the beast as obedience to apostate Israel.
Exd 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. The Lord was Crucified at (old) Jerusalem.
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
It is apostate Israel that has become Sodom and "Egypt" here.
The Christians are rejecting Israel's natural things in favor of Israel's spiritual things. Apostate Israel has become just like Egypt trying to enslave in a confidence in the flesh.
Babylon is old Jerusalem.
The judaizers are throughout the NT writings. This is Paul's "thorn in the flesh". His kindred according to the flesh. Paul writes of them in nearly all his letters. The concision party (Phil. 3:1-8) marking everyone they can with a confidence in the flesh. A circumcision made with hands. It is the synagogue of Satan that is doing this. Those who say they are Jews but do lie.
The Jews are using the Romans for sure just as they did to get Jesus crucified but it is they that are the focus of this "lie". The lie of the serpent. "Surely you shall not die".
Blessings
Barry
I think it is literal.. that the little beast (or man beast/office) rev 13:11-18 (as opposed to 1-10, the world beast or body) which one, or office, brought 'down' fire upon earth in the sight of men (hiroshima and nagasaki) which persuaded men to rebuild the world beast/body... little beast will step into big beast giving breath/authority to it, and causes all w/o an identifying, tracking (modifying) tatoo/code to (at first) not be able to buy or sell, but later accelerates into executing those w/o it.. [likely the last "ten days" of the 45 days of 666 spoken of by Daniel the prophet at the end of his book, Daniel 12:11,12.. "from the time that they remove the daily sacrifice (where upon earth is there the daily sacrifices of prayer offered (everyday, clue, mt 24:1,2, not one stone, not one).. about 3 and 1/2 hebrew years later is the (666)abomination/great affront to God, set-up.. but happy the one who comes to 45 days later [c.r. mt 24:29-32; 2thess 1:7; 1thess 4:15,16; jn 11:24]
Hey Sheila
Re-read your post :)
My views:
Paul would not be hurt by the second death because he was putting off (like dung) a confidence in the flesh, even though he very much could have boasted in the flesh.
He would be "found in Him not having a righteousness of" his own "which is of the law".
The serpent however would be thrown into the lake of fire.
Blessings Barry
Hello Glenda;
It is common knowledge that 666 is the Hebrew number lettering system that they developed while in slavery to uphold the heriage of their beliefs.
While in captivity the Hebrew attached a numerical value to each character in thier alphabet, each character was a characteristic of God, and since they weren't allowed to write Godly words to remember and worship God in captivity to remeber him by they wrote in thier childrens names.
They still use this numbering system today, every Hebrew child knows their number...
The number six hundred and sixty six is the name, Nero Caesar. The Roman Emporer.
From which the smaller office as you put it came, Titus Caesar, who invaded Jerusalem and laid waste the Temple and stood in the holy of holies and said, "See I have destroyed your God, therefore you known that I am God"
666, is Nero Casaer, and the son of perdition was Titus...
The 666 that is in the bible is this: (I edited this post and may and to re-write some points but it still severs as an into IMO)
1Ki 10:13 Now King Solomon gave the queen of Sheba all she desired, whatever she asked, besides what Solomon had given her according to the royal generosity. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants.
1Ki 10:14 The weight of gold that came to Solomon yearly was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold,
The Israelites desired a king against the advice of God. Hence the significance of the number and its attachment to the old economy.
Jesus the king of kings and the firstfruits Christians become persist and kings.
Once again this is about a movement from Old (kings) to New (kings). From Babylon (old jerusalem) to New Jerusalem.
From old mark (circumcision) to new (Christ is the removal of the flesh) mark.
In this way there is no difference from revelation and the book of Hebrews for example. Why not harmonize the scriptures instead of making Revelation something entirely different.
JMO
Blessings Barry
QuoteWhy not harmonize the scriptures instead of making Revelation something entirely different.
That's what truth does. The Hebrew numbering system has been around for thousands of years, at least 1000 bc.
What you offered doesn't harmonize, it mystifies.
When John brings up the number of the beast and the number is of a man, John was being quite specific. Just as he was when he said let the reader who understands determine it.
John was not refering to some transfering, he was identifying.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chilton-david.html
Go here and download this for free, there it will show you directly the whole thing.
If you scroll down the page here you will find the hebrew numbering ledgend for 666.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chilton-david.html
I offered you a 666 that is in the bible and you offer me conjecture and a 666 that is extra biblical.
That is the problem with your model of interpretation of Revelation IMO. It is extra biblical in nature.
And it in no way harmonizes with any of the other epistles that we have before us. For no other NT writings speak of the matters that you would have Revelation speak of. Simply because revelation is quite symbolic you take freedoms that are not offered in the other writings and in no other epistles.
Why have a New Jerusalem, if Babylon is something other than the old one then we cannot make sense of this.
Why have two different "marks", one of Christ and the other of something else if the something else is not of the old covenant???. IE circumcision.
Your interpretation would take the conflict of the new and old that is visible in all of the rest of the New Testament and then change it as soon as it hits Revelation.
You would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.
Blessings to you
Barry
QuoteYou would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.
No I'm not. In fact revelation is the complete culmination of the old testament prophetic writtings.
To dismiss the culture and relevent political situations of the people involved is irresponsible.
For instance...
Paul said Jesus is the only name by which a man may be saved.
Many doctrines have been based on this scripture. However when you take in the current situation the people were living in you realize that when Paul penned this statement that he was actually making a political statement. The Roman coin was enscribed with a picture of Caesar, but it also had the enscription, "The only name in which a man may be saved." When Paul wrote it he was protesting Caesar, but your translation standard would proclude this truth. You can not exclude historical and cultural relevance to understanding, otherwise you are left with opinionated translations verses reality.
:cloud9: That's interesting.....do you have a link for that about Caesar's coinage? Blessings....
hi! Surely the Bible is a complete book of life and encompasses all of life and not only the old covenant making way for the new after it fulfilled its purpose.. and also surely "His coming" of Mt 24, wasn't fully fulfilled in the day of Titus? Paul wrote there are many antichrists.. there has been many times of apocalypse/collapse, but there is still the climactic global one. It's my practice to earnestly pray when wanting the answers to something and not resting til there's that move or turn of the Spirit within which bears witness "this is truth", when I prayed concerning the book of revelation, it came immediately back to me "what are the strongest forces at work upon humanity, today?" Most folks are caught up in a type of apocalypse of yesteryear, hence the red herrings of the catholic church, Israel (but,"whoever curses Israel will be cursed"), and other theories. A lot of folks believe the (gobal) harlot, the world beast/body, the little beast/last caesar, and the false prophet.. biggest false prophet of all time/a strong delusion/adult fairy tale and philosophy of today, are all one and the same!
-Surely the two advents of Christ are often prophesied in one breath like one advent almost, as it is also w/ prophecy.. a fulfilling for the day it's given and a fulfillment for the climactic global 'end'.
- Let me call your attention to rev 13:13, the little beast/final caesar&final"prince to come"(of Dn9:27) is the one who brought 'down' fire upon hiroshima and nagasaki! This is also the opening of the 6th seal in the 6th chapter of rev.. Bible prophecy also pertains to today.. So many say the u.s. isn't in bible prophecy but it is in the book of revelation at least twice - rev 12:14, the 2nd migration of the faith after the mantle moved from Israel to Christ-ians. Note the 1st migration of the (new) faith was (for a large part) to europe after 70a.d. (12:6 safe til the renaissance).. [the 2nd is an office of man which wrought fire(13:13)].
Many blessings!
P.S. - the four horsemen of the apocalypse after their seal is opened continue their gallop/progression to 'the end'.. there's a trick or twist here which hides much of the vision, for each of the seals are described here as they are when they are Opened, and also, however, as they are in their fully progressed form at 'the end'. Therefore some things which occur very late, are described here so early in the narrative! This fancy footwork hides and confuses a lot of the revelation vision (timing and sequence) "for a time". The opening of the 6th seal is very dramatic, it's something totally new.. but the conditions of it are all described as they occur at the initial opening, and also as they occur later, after "a pause" where this great new "wind is not allowed to hurt the earth or sea or any tree" for a while (7:1). Can we believe that the opening of thermo-nuclear weaponry is not mentioned in bible prophecy? not just the fire at 'the end' but the actual great spiritual earthquake of its opening.. "then the kings.. and the men and the commanders hid themselves in the caves.." - remember bomb shelters? [Another note: the 4th seal is not "hades" but is the grave, including the mass grave wherever it occurs..] "Apocalypse" the lesson of, is being deeply engraved upon every heart. It's the story of human history, and also of every human life (apocalypse). It's the difference between life (God) and nonlife/death.. "good and evil". False must, and can only, fall, crash.. in a self destructive puff of smoke.. Lesson, we cannot break God's law, cannot do evil/nonlife, for all untruth, evil, nonlife can only ever crash. Apocalypse. To be divorced or separate from God is impossible, for God iS Life. Therefor this life/human history, is, apocalypse.
Quote from: Dallas on October 24, 2009, 05:27:01 AM
QuoteYou would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.
No I'm not. In fact revelation is the complete culmination of the old testament prophetic writtings.
To dismiss the culture and relevent political situations of the people involved is irresponsible.
For instance...
Paul said Jesus is the only name by which a man may be saved.
Many doctrines have been based on this scripture. However when you take in the current situation the people were living in you realize that when Paul penned this statement that he was actually making a political statement. The Roman coin was enscribed with a picture of Caesar, but it also had the enscription, "The only name in which a man may be saved." When Paul wrote it he was protesting Caesar, but your translation standard would proclude this truth. You can not exclude historical and cultural relevance to understanding, otherwise you are left with opinionated translations verses reality.
Dallas, I see where you are coming from. IMHO however it misses the point. Revelation is predominantly about covenant issues much like Hebrews.
Blessings Barry
ASV
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
KJV
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
Revelation is signifying that there would be not outer court in the fullness of the new covenant.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
The holy city and the great city and Babylon are all Jerusalem.
Hbr 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews and Revelation are saying the same things and they are about "covenant". The mark of the beast is the old mark. 666 is about the old kings. Babylon is the old Jerusalem. ECT Those that abide in the old will be hurt by the second death when the old visibly comes crashing down because it has been fulfilled.
JMO
Blessings Barry
well, Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' and
qualifies for the 'mark' of Cain..killer of brethern...and
those born after the flesh that persecute those born of the promise.
BUT MANY MEN MEET THAT QUALIFICATION....
as far as the Queen of Sheba paying 'tribute" to Solomon
with talents of gold, we know it's not our 'gold' God treasures
and wants.He rewards with talents of light...He wants us to
iincrease in spiritual treasure in heaven
I beleive that there is a 'fleshly' fulfillment and spiritual
fullfillment of God's prophecy. The natural world /seen creation
and the as yet unseen/spiritual creation will both expierence
these things.
thanks, Sheila
Where can I go and discuss the book of revelation and bible prophecy??
:cloud9: You're in the Book of Revelation section........ so.........feel free. :thumbsup:
Thanks! But I'm sorry, i was being a bit sarcastic.. sorry, guess I'm a bit disillusioned, never met a person who knows anything about bible prophecy or willing to discuss.. sorry, maybe I'm in a mood.. :mshock:
you sarcastic? But look at your cute little avatar!!
That avatar is so anti-sarcastic. :laughing7:
Well, it's true!
look... it's the cutest avatar ever.
lol.
Hey Shela
"Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' "
Caesar is not in covenant with God. Caesar was used by those in covenant with God to persecute the people of new covenant. Just like they used the Romans to kill Christ.
"and qualifies for the 'mark' of Cain..killer of brethren..."
But Cain was in covenant with God that is how he got the mark.
Compare Revelation with what we have clearly written elsewhere, which is the point the harmonization of the scriptures. This way Revelation which is highly symbolic does not have to mean 100 different things to 100 different people:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorcerers were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
It is first and foremost the "covenantal" earth.
To be continued.
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? {the sentence of the Valley of Himmon}
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
{the covenantal earth}
from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
The Romans are being used but it is the Jews that are the covenant people.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: glenda on October 25, 2009, 06:17:49 AM
Thanks! But I'm sorry, i was being a bit sarcastic.. sorry, guess I'm a bit disillusioned, never met a person who knows anything about bible prophecy or willing to discuss.. sorry, maybe I'm in a mood.. :mshock:
:cloud9: I guess I missed that part. :mblush: As for the lack of participation, there are quite a few on this board that feel the same way I do, ie. that the first line of the book of Revelation (notice it's singular and not plural) says it all about the content.
So by way of explanation: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"; revelation there meaning to reveal or uncover, when tied in with Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory, and John stating that he was IN THE TEMPLE on the Lord's day, knowing that WE are the temple of God, and Paul talking about the glory that is to be REVEALED, IN US.............
Well, for my part, that takes the focus off of the realm of outside events so much and into symbolic meaning of God's dealings with the "fractional" parts of man, ie. spirit, soul, and body, as well as His body as a whole. My :2c: Blessings to all.......
Quote from: BarryThe Romans are being used but it is the Jews that are the covenant people.
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying the covenant people are held to a higher standard by God? Aren't we now the covenant people [new covenant]?
And what does that have to do with the mark of the beast?
Quote from: Molly on October 25, 2009, 03:04:28 PM
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying the covenant people are held to a higher standard by God? Aren't we now the covenant people [new covenant]?
And what does that have to do with the mark of the beast?
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that
unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Circumcision is a covenantal type but it became their idol. Jerusalem is a type. Their Kings like Solomon (666) was a type.
"behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here" and that was the point.
Revelation is about the move from a trust in types and figures which "those who say they are Jews" and apostate Israel had, to a move to the substance of the New Covenant.
Revelation is about this battle. And it is this point that fits like a glove with the rest of the New Testament writings.
Blessings Barry
Also:
Jhn 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
Jhn 19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
This brings the Romans into the covenantal battle. But the Romans are not the essence of that battle.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: BarryCircumcision is a covenantal type but it became their idol.
Their idol, how? You mean pride? That they were better than everyone else because God talked to them? But, they also seem to kill those among themselves to whom God talked--the prophets.
Does a circumcised heart avoid these problems?
Pride is very close Molly IMHO.
The bible is about love.
Love had never been fully revealed under the old covenant. So those "priests" were ill equipped to be a "light to the world".
Remember a priest is never just a priest for themselves but for "others".
Under types and figures which were entrusted to Israel, (even when it was a Gentiles that was involved like the queen of the South), salvation was then "of the Jews". This is where salvation was going to come from. But this created a friction between those who wanted to hold on to their idea of being "set apart" and "holy" through the law. This is how circumcision became an idol and how even some so called Christians back then preached "another gospel". We see this in Galatians, 1,2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, Philippians and many other areas.
Types and figures never really revealed God's true love. Christ did. So those who had a trust in the old could not be entrusted with the message of love. Revelation is about that changeover.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorcerers were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Blessings Barry
Hi Barry,
Thanks for clarifying,brother. You know,I was thinking about
Adam and the covenant God made for a kingdom with
him,,dominion over the earth. The prince of this world also
came to him as an adversary and essentialyy 'killed' him
through leading into disobediance
For dust you are,and to dust you will return
In Jesus Christ these two covenants joined into one...
He is both King and Preist...new heaven and new earth
....the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our
Lord
Sheila
Hey Sheila,
Reads similar to this IMO:
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, {when Paul wrote this letter} and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Blessings Barry
:thumbsup:
QuoteDallas, I see where you are coming from. IMHO however it misses the point. Revelation is predominantly about covenant issues much like Hebrews.
Blessings Barry
I agree with you. Don't know what we are missing on. I even go further and say that revelation is entirley about the fulfillment of the outpouring of the culmination of the old covenant. Revelation is a covenantal document dealing with the Jewish covenant agreement of Exodus 19.
Do you see all things fulfilled, or partially?
I agree with alot of insertions you have related, I do however think in order to get a more well footed and reality based understanding since these events were of reality events you can't exclude culture and history from scripture.
Suspected that I very much neglected to try and find more common ground. My Bad :)
All thinks fulfilled is my opinion.
Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on October 25, 2009, 01:58:38 PM
Hey Shela
"Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' "
Caesar is not in covenant with God. Caesar was used by those in covenant with God to persecute the people of new covenant. Just like they used the Romans to kill Christ.
Just the other day I was thinking how the image of Caesar was on the coin when Jesus said "render unto Caesar.." And thinking of all the u.s. pres. on u.s. money.. rev 13:13-the hiroshima & nagasaki fire pinpoints final "prince to come", note u.s. architecture senatatorial republic, courts [half iron toes/western/half not, "won't really cleave"].. just some random thoughts..
Quote from: sparrow on October 25, 2009, 08:15:39 AM
you sarcastic? But look at your cute little avatar!!
That avatar is so anti-sarcastic. :laughing7:
Well, it's true!
look... it's the cutest avatar ever.
lol.
Thanks! :)) :)) that was very nice and made me smile!
The mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits
or characteristics common to humans beings, when in opposition to the Spirit.
"The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."
Yes peacemaker, I understand and see it all around.
And it reminds me of an old B&W TV show called The Twilight Zone that I saw many years ago.
In one episode people had to wear grotesque masks portraying hideous spirits of greed and lust and other common spirits for a period of time in order obtain an inheritance due them.
Thing is, when they took off the masks, their faces were permanently disfigured into the horrible appearance of what they held deep inside them.
Hmmm... I wonder if Rod Serling read the Bible.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." - Rev. 13:16-17
What does this mean if not a literal mark?
I haven't read the entire thread yet so my answer may be there.
I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:
Hi SQ.
My take at this time:
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
The Jews were somewhat free to practise their religion (they had their temple and they had their synagogues in every city) and so the Christians were also free being seen by Rome as sect of Judaism at least to begin with. Once the Jews really started prosecuting the Christians (like Saul before he was converted) and once the Christians started bringing in Gentiles without circumcision (the mark of the beast) then they lost privileges under Rome. This made it very hard economically for them. If they had claimed allegiance to Judaism they would have been ok. Which is also what the "Judaizers" were preaching in some if not all of the seven churches. They would simply say "I became a convert of Judaism" and they would have been ok.
The pressures were very great and the Judaizers had this on there side. (Paul speaks of them very often in his letters.) 666 is the number of the old covenant economy (yearly salary) of the old covenant king "Solomon". This was not the "wisdom" of Christ. For one greater than Solomon had arrived. The king of kings.
Barry
Quote from: SQ on October 28, 2009, 03:29:22 AM
I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:
:cloud9: Buying and selling denotes someone has lack, whereas in His Kingdom there is no lack, only overflowing abundance. Which mind you have operating in you determines what the works (hand) of the hands are. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: SQ on October 28, 2009, 03:29:22 AM
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." - Rev. 13:16-17
What does this mean if not a literal mark?
I haven't read the entire thread yet so my answer may be there.
I am having a hard time trying to figure out what one thinks with our mind and what we do with our right hand has much to do with buying and selling. :dontknow:
I have to say I agree.. although every single thing in the Bible has a spiritual meaning and lesson, it's still all quite literal. Also every prophecied judgment in the Old Testament, except for in the case of Ninevah when they repented and changed their Godless course, was literal (fiery) judgments/consequences. The whole world has just about been changed into a different world (from Christendom established after Christ, to the false prophet/er,teaching, which changed the world). This is bound to have consequence. If judgment/collapse/apocalypse was literal in the past, why would it not be now. I believe it will take yet some time, for there needs to be a more concrete worLd governing in place and also more of a global economy ($gold of babble on&on), but I very truly believe the Lord wants the Book of Revelation to be understood, for at both the beginning and the end it speaks of those who read and understand being blessed. There's just two or three 'locks' in the book which keeps much of the vision "hidden for a time".. but once those are unlocked it's pretty much an open book like any other, and though it yes has spiritual meaning and allegory, clear reading of it, to me, still makes for the most logic.
Quote from: glenda on October 28, 2009, 05:40:22 PM
I have to say I agree.. although every single thing in the Bible has a spiritual meaning and lesson, it's still all quite literal. Also every prophecied judgment in the Old Testament, except for in the case of Ninevah when they repented and changed their Godless course, was literal (fiery) judgments/consequences.
That's exactly the same observation I made.
So you probably are wrong :laughing7:
But we are no longer living in OT times. Just thinking out loud....
OT=Works=literal.
NT=Faith=spiritual.
Perhaps the judgement "type" also changed?
The destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD was very literal but perhaps that can be explained if we assume NT times started at resurrection and the prophesy was an OT one; so literal.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2009, 06:43:06 PM
That's exactly the same observation I made.
So you probably are wrong :laughing7:
But we are no longer living in OT times. Just thinking out loud....
OT=Works=literal.
NT=Faith=spiritual.
Perhaps the judgement "type" also changed?
The destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD was very literal but perhaps that can be explained if we assume NT times started at resurrection and the prophesy was an OT one; so literal.
I think of "judgement" as consequences, in much the same manner as "the wages of sin is death" which is to say, the result of sin is death, until we repent and turn to the Lord, so too, with the consequences the world is heaping up, if they repent and turn/believe, collapse(apocalypse) need not occur.. Isn't this the "learning of good from evil"? (liFe from death). It's why the languages were confused at Babel Tower, apocalypse/collapse would have occured way too soon, proving nothing.. You know, when God endowed thinking ability (thus choice) a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be'. And as a result all suffer some, and some even horribly. But God, being Life itself (who/what else could be?) he suffers, lives through, and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur. Why would He put Himself through all this? Because He's not creating an ant farm and robots, but a family, and an UNbreakable paradise.. un-breakable because the knowing of good from evil,
life from death, will be deeeply engraved on every heart, mind and psyche.. Apocalypse
began when God endowed thinking ability, and is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. if there's to be rational creatures that is..
:bigGrin:
Quote:
Perhaps the judgement "type" also changed?
The destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD was very literal
End quote.
You are IMHO on the right track whitewings.
Here is my take:
There is a difference between being one that inherits and one that is a benefactor.
Judgment was about reward and inheritance and how that was divided.
We are the recipients of that Judgment having taken place. We are the benefactors. We take the spiritual truths and apply them as benefactors since everything has been made new. Not as ones coming out of the old covenant, but as ones that are dealing with some of these issues between our ears still because we are still impacting ongoing history even though everything has been made new.
Placing things in there original setting and context remains an important part in how we apply things in our own time.
JMO Barry
Thanks everyone this is a great thread, I have read Revelation a few times but still having a time understanding.
I am getting a little at a time though, and that is a blessing. :Sparkletooth:
He often works that way.
Line upon line.
Precept upon precept.
Deep calls unto deep.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdQje_gJ0ko
Quote from: Barry DuPont on October 28, 2009, 09:21:40 PM
Quote:
Placing things in there original setting and context remains an important part in how we apply things in our own time.
JMO Barry
..it's a continuing story... (the Bible as a whole of course)
As a trumpet: The restitution of all things includes the written Works of the Spirit.
(IMHO)
"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh have gone out into the world; buying and selling the word."
Those who do not belong to this worldly monetary system of disbelief, do not have the mark ingrained into their being, rendering to Caesar (themselves); but serve the true and living God.
As for me and my house, we will freely serve the LORD now.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: peacemaker on November 01, 2009, 01:43:45 AM
Those who do not belong to this worldly monetary system of disbelief, do not have the mark ingrained into their being, rendering to Caesar (themselves); but serve the true and living God.
Amen.. Also, the restition of all things, including the written works of the Spirit will be awesome.. and how awesome to know that those who have not been saved.. have not been saved yet! And of such were each one of us.. cancels out all boasting.. forever.. all coming to the Lord when He sees fit.. all a perfect drama, this learning of good from evil (life from death) ...drama means, some must play the part of unknowing for longer.. He has done all things perfectly in order to bring about the most perfect of all possibilities.. It is impossible that anything less than the best possible possibility be the 'end' result.
- Because He is Perfect, nothing else is possible.