Hebrews 2.10

[Cardinal]

About two weeks later I saw on televised news the same person pass from left to right behind a newsman in what was ancient Persia and he was saying something.  There was some crisis there that, to my understanding at the time, was possibly significant in view of certain prophecies.  What he was saying was very faintly picked up by the newsmans microphone and I could read his lips.  He said, "The second coming of Jesus Christ is very near."

:cloud9: When I got to this part, it hit me you might have been experiencing a "higher" form of interpretation of tongues. I did not know until I was fasting this whole summer, that such a thing existed, but it does. Blessings......

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I think Jesus's spirit was perfect but he hadn't yet perfected the flesh.  He had to suffer to do that (as we all suffer in life) and die (without sin) (something we can't do), thus he lived a sinless life for mankind and conquered death.
(The wages of sin is death).  Death had no control over him and he rose again on the third day.  (Why the third I have no idea).

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen........ :thumbsup:

[claypot]

A strong thought I had a long time ago and somehow this thread reinforces it is that God is training His children in way they should go and when we are OLD they/we will not depart from it.

cp

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Thank you reFormer, that was very emotional post for me.

Lee Damboise II

[claypot]

It is very misleading to read about the perfecting of the Inaugurator and assume that means He was morally deficient, sinfull even, prior to becoming perfect. 

Hey Ref,

I don't hear and can't imagine anyone here even suggesting Jesus the Christ was morally deficient or sinfull at any time.

I like your analogy of the green apple. I think Jesus is a perfect expression of God's thinking process in a sense. God thought up man, mankind, creation. God saw the making of man from Adam to Jesus.

If Scripture says that Jesus was perfected then I take that to suggest He was in some kind of imperfect state somewhere along the line and I think that was when the first Adam prevailed. Jesus is the perfect finished product, crudely put, but He needed finishing I'm thinking.

Do you see Jesus as imperfect at any point? Imperfect but sinless. Perfectly imperfect.

cp

[CHB]

Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"?  Mark 14:38  says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.

CHB

[Zeek]

Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"?  Mark 14:38  says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.

CHB

what to you is "flesh"? 

[Tony N]

Christ was sinless and the spotless lamb of God.
He knew no sin.

The word "perfect" uses the same Greek word for "mature" and "finish."

Heb 2:10 For it became Him, because of Whom all is, and through Whom all is, in leading many sons into glory, to perfect (mature, finish) the Inaugurator of their salvation through sufferings."

[claypot]

Christ was sinless and the spotless lamb of God.
He knew no sin.

The word "perfect" uses the same Greek word for "mature" and "finish."

Heb 2:10 For it became Him, because of Whom all is, and through Whom all is, in leading many sons into glory, to perfect (mature, finish) the Inaugurator of their salvation through sufferings."

I thought of that too Tony. What are you thinking it means then to say to mature the Inaugurator..............or to finish the Inaugurator.............

Are you saying Jesus was immature in some way? Or unfinished?

I fully agree Christ was sinless and the spotless Lamb of God.

cp

[claypot]

Tony,

What about these holy words................

And he said unto them, Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.  lk13.32

Is Jesus, by implication, saying He wasn't perfected yet?

cp

[CHB]

Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"?  Mark 14:38  says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.

CHB

what to you is "flesh"? 

Hi Zeek,


(1Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.

(1Peter 4:1-2) For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

(Rom. 8:3) God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

chb

[WhiteWings]

^KJV Hebrews 5:8-9  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

^KJV Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I don't want to slander Jesus or anything like that; but I don't want to ignore verses that don't suit me either.
If I read the verses listed above Jesus was not perfect. Perfect is perfect. Perfect can't be made more perfect otherwise it was not perfect to begin with. Jesus needed to learn obedience.

I asked a few times why God didn't create us perfect from the start. The answers I got were always similar to we need to learn what good/evil/love/hate is.
Jesus is our guiding light. But would He really be that if He was perfect and nothing in His life caused Him even the slightest problem?

I know many won't like the following question...
If the wages of sin is death; doesn't that mean that if Jesus was sinless He wouldn't have died?

[WhiteWings]

I have to add that the word "perfect" often means perfect for a certain task. Same with the word good.
It starts in Genesis. Creation was good, very good, perfect, depending on the translation.
But not much later the mess started. Adam and Eve  sinned. Throughout the Bible hints are given the earth is decaying and will be replaced by something better. That can't be if it was perfect.
Currently I don't know how that would help us with this topic; but I wouldn't be suprised at all if the perfect has a similar meaning. Just a wild guess. Jesus was already perfect for heaven so didn't need to do anything more to deserve heaven. But for His saviour task he wasn't perfect He needed to learn suffering. That training He got on earth.
:Peace:

[jabcat]

Just a thought - perfect can also mean 'mature'.  Also, maybe there can be some sort of distinction made (at least at times and in some situations, and to some degree - nuances) between 'sinless' and 'perfect'...not sure.  To be honest, I haven't dug into this topic...I DO believe Jesus was sinless, I'm sure scripture says that...haven't looked hard at the 'perfect' part.

[jabcat]

I'll add another thought.  Is mortal flesh ever perfect (at least to this point in time)?  I.e., anyone in clothing of mortal flesh might have heartburn from time to time, a stomach cramp, a cut on a finger, a wart, 5 pounds over ideal weight?  Could it be that anything in Jesus that was divine was perfect, but things that were of His humanity did indeed have some room to grow, mature - become perfect?  Even the part of Him that had human emotions, for instance.  He didn't sin, but was there some measure of control or growth, etc. to be obtained there?  I don't know.  I may not know what I'm talking about, tossing some ideas out.

[WhiteWings]

I think perfect and sinless not always are the same thing.

Sin simply means missing the mark. Even if Jesus possibly was not perfect, He did hit the mark of accomplishing our salvation. So that means He didn't sin.

[WhiteWings]

I DO believe Jesus was sinless, I'm sure scripture says that...

1 Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

[jabcat]

Good, thanks.  Wasn't sure where it was at.  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Confusing, isn't it? I'm going to say some things that are hard to hear, because the Spirit has to make them life in you. I'm not saying them for debate. So; as I said before, He was born under the OT covenant. His birth had to be a type and shadow for our spiritual new birth. God the Father taught Him the same way He teaches us, ie. comparing natural to spiritual and spiritual to natural.

Not that you have to take my word for anything, but He spoke this very thing to me within a few months of being saved, ie. that He was teaching me the same way He TAUGHT Jesus. Not having a religious background meant that that was not anything earth shattering to me to receive, because I was not brought up in the RCC or the protestant churches that heavily and unknowingly, bought into their influence about the "perfectly divine from birth" doctrine.

Just as an acorn contains all it needs to BECOME a giant oak tree, so too did He contain all He needed to BECOME a fully mature and perfect/complete (according to pattern of the Seed), Son of God. It was spoken/prophesied over Him before His birth. The Word has been spoken/prophesied over us that we are to become the sons of God, ie. fully matured as well, with our new birth/addition of His Spirit/Seed.

We are the "dirt" He the Seed was planted in, and He will come to full maturity IN us, AS us, just as that same Spirit Seed came to full maturity in Jesus. This is how Jesus was the express image of the Father, ie. the Spirit Seed within Him reproduced it's nature THRU Him.

So the only way this need for Him to be made perfect of complete could work is if He too was birthed into a veil of forgetfulness for a season, to prevent Him from remembering who He was before He came into the flesh, just as He has us.

Another thing He spoke to me during that time period, and by speak I mean the still small voice as a thought, that you recognize is not your thought; one day He told me I was not really learning all these things in the Word, but rather REMEMBERING them via the Holy Spirit bringing to my remembrance all things. You can't remember something you never knew previously. We learn things thru the carnal mind, but we remember things in this sense of remembering He is talking about here, via the Spirit. There is the difference between the carnal mind and the mind of Christ, in a nutshell.

This is why He said at the last supper/Passover Seder, when He broken the bread and shared what would have been the 3rd of the 4 cups of wine (the 4th was the one He spoke of NOT having until He had it new with them), do this often in REMEMBRANCE of me. True communion with God is breaking/opening the Word/bread with the light/Spirit/wine of the candlestick.

The measure of the stature of Christ, who is Spirit, is that which you have received or had translated out of the carnal mind knowledge into Spirit, is all that counts as that full measure of stature.

We were one with Him from the foundation of the world, just as He was one with the Father from the foundation of the world, and us. He was given pre-eminence in all things, because He was the firstborn and therefore the Seed of the Father, like a prototype. The difference was that because of this, the firstborn according the law spoken by the Father, was that the firstborn received a DOUBLE PORTION.

That we, the heirs of salvation, might receive the same, He became poor that we might become rich, which means also, that we receive the inheritance of the FIRSTBORN, who is Spirit. First born of the Spirit, then born of the flesh. This is why it says we are joint heirs with Christ and not joint heirs with Jesus, if you really want to split hairs. Jesus was the flesh and blood that Christ, the anointed One, who IS the Seed of God, appeared in. The Father is a Spirit and because all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His Seed was a Spirit also. It is this Seed that went into the ground and quickened His MORTAL body, ie. if the SAME SPIRIT is in you, that raised JESUS from the dead.....

Compare that thought with........Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead (we are the dead in Christ) will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25)

And this......Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs (our stony heart is the tomb) will hear His voice, (John 5:28)

And again, this is revelation that must come from the Father, just as it did to Peter, when asked basically, who is it that is talking to you, and he said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus the man, speaking as the Spirit Seed of God, said that He only spoke what He heard His Father, His Head speak.

This is essentially the same thing that is happening to us, that happened to Him, much earlier in His life. He had a soul, His Spirit was continually "impregnating" and then bringing to "birth" the things the Spirit brought to His remembrance; for remember, faith (impregnation with thought of the Spirit) without works (acting on thought of the Spirit) is dead.

So I see two that FULLY became one or complete, just as we are fully becoming one or complete, to our complete salvation, as the veil of our soul is slowly being rent, just as a woman's "veil" or hymen is "rent", which is what that veil represents.

For we, (though our carnal mind alone), don't know what we will be like, but we know (thru our Spirit man bringing things to our remembrance) that when He appears, we will be like Him. Blessings....

[claypot]

You all are really quite amazing. I am being helped by the words here.

Just a few thoughts............

Even if these words we are discussing do mean 'mature' then I would ask, as I've asked Tony, are they saying Jesus was immature then? So we're back to square one.

I fully believe the whole plan of God is perfect yet is a plan that has a beginning and end which means the end is the matured (perfect) complete aspect while all before it is unfinished, not fully matured, not 'perfect'.

Perfectly imperfect rings in my thoughts all the time and makes sense to me.

We all get caught in such modes of thinking that to consider things like we are considering is seemingly impossible. I value you all so much, as you take these things on. I discuss these same things with my more traditional friends and they last for about 2 or 3 exchanges before they write me off, again, as a heretic. But some do try and it's fun to try to get their gears turning in a different direction.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Matthew 3;
16 Now, being baptized, Jesus straightway stepped up from the water, and lo! opened up to Him were the heavens, and He perceived the spirit of God descending as if a dove, and coming on Him.


Next, it's our turn!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen it is, Beloved Servant! We, that have continued to descend into the Jordan by the picking up of our cross and following Him, who went on 2000 cubits/years ahead of us, death will not have any hold on us, just as it didn't on Him.

And CP, you're blessed that your friends let you GET thru 2-3 exchanges before they label you a heretic!  :laughing7:

It says that in the 7th day things would be spoken that it was not lawful for a man to speak, and I tell you in this, the 7th day that it is dawning, things are being spoken from on High. Hallelujah! Blessings....

[HartleyDamboiseII]

great discussion...

Lee Damboise II