This is from the site someone mentioned on this forum a few days ago.
http://www.universalsalvation.org/page10.htm
As for being perfect, even Jesus was not perfect. "Come off it, everyone knows that Jesus was perfect." Then everyone is wrong. Jesus was not perfect. Look at Hebrews 2:10: "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." If you don't believe it, read it again. Jesus was made perfect through sufferings. If Jesus was made perfect through sufferings, how on earth could He have been already perfect? Full truth was not available, even to Him, until after His death and resurrection. There was no evidence, right up to His death, that He would not sin, until it was proven.
I like the site but I wanted some comments on these words if anyone would be so kind.
cp
:cloud9: They are partially right, IMO. He was made perfect by His sufferings, but everyone always assumes that the visible cross was the sufferings that brought about the perfection. He was perfect BEFORE He ever went to the cross; if He was not, He would have never rose from the dead.
The cross means in a nutshell, death to self and the ability to forgive others that crucify you. The body (outward) can only do what it sees it's Head/Spirit do (inward).
He did, was obedient to, what He saw His Head do, and when that was completed IN Him (inward), it was signaled/manifested in the natural/body (outward) by His baptism in the Jordan.
THEN, His "ministry" (displaying what was already accomplished within, without, ie. mortality being swallowed up of immortality) began, culminating with the "ultimate" mortality being swallowed up of immortality, the resurrection from the dead.
Had He not done it literally and only "scribed" about it, faith in the letter would not have been enough to bring about the reality, just as faith in the letter APART from the Spirit bearing witness that WE ARE the sons of God (and therefore joint heirs of EVERYTHING) is STILL NOT ENOUGH today.
The COMPLETED divinity at birth doctrine, originates with the RCC, and is a thief because it makes what He did appear unattainable to the rest of the sons of God (all of us), "as we were not born that way, ie. divine". Yet our new birth, does just that, God with/in you, Emmanuel. Blessings....
IMO Heb. 2:10 is speaking "soteriologically".
As does this very interesting verse:
Col 1:24 NKJV I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church
There was nothing lacking in Christ's sacrifice. But other suffering of followers who were to follow Christ was prophesied. It was in that way "soteriologically" lacking. IMO the same principle is applied to the perfection of Christ in Heb. 2:10.
JMO
Barry
IMO there is much to learn from other writings of authors of Christ's time before he died on earth. If you investigate well where the writings come from. ( Other disallowed books of the bible) before mother church made it what it is today[ the bible]. the story of Jesus' upbringing in North Africa is one example. Gospel of Mary -disallowed- probably for good reasons.
There is so much out there of the story of His life. And of course you have to use the Spirit to read this ( Stuff ).
Perfect? I'll never believe that the Man Jesus was perfect. Because of the English word is defined by the speaker.
The "bible" perfect? Meaning Complete... Oh Ya... He has, will and will always be Complete and Whole.
Lee Damboise
I hear ya Lee and I had another thought or two on this...........
Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; 9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvationHeb5.8.......
I couldn't resist. Another verse.
I don't think Jesus was imperfect in the way we think of imperfection. Like Adam and Eve, we are made perfectly 'imperfect' according to God's grand design. God does nothing imperfect nor allows anything that would ultimately take away from His perfect work.
Could you consider this, that Jesus, because He was with God before the world began as He says and He was trained up to resist sin in all it's forms and God is the perfect Father/Trainer/Parent, that Jesus perfectly resisted sin and thus was so beloved in His Father's eyes. Adam and Eve are like the beginning perfect works of God and, because God was not finished with His 'making of them', they fell to sin. Even Adam and Eve's 'falling' is part of the perfect work of God don't you think? It is how they (we) are to be made perfect through sufferings as Jesus was, only Jesus never fell to sin because He came into life fully trained.
It's almost like God is showing me 2 versions of what's going on with us. The first story is Adam and the second is Jesus the Christ. The beginning work and the finished work. We people are perfect works of God going from Adam to Jesus Christ, learning through sufferings and all experiences.
Jesus is the perfected Masterpiece of God's creation of Man.
Just airing again, sorry. Something is upon me to write as I truly had no intention to write one more word on this subject.
cp
Another thought, sorry!
I picturing God making something much like Himself in that 'it' can think and act according to 'it's' thoughts. I'm picturing God putting all sorts of things, good and bad, in front of His creation. Now here's what moves me emotionally a bit, as I am not an emotional person in many regards, anyway, what moves me is the thought that God is flexing His muscle a bit or challenging Himself in a way. What I mean is this. I see God making a thinking, feeling creature, knowing it needs to encounter situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong so it can be perfected.
Now I see God saying to Himself that He will allow all sorts of temptations to overcome this creation yet I will be the perfect parent and I will train up my 'child' in the way it should go and when it is OLD it will not depart from my ways. Adam was young, Jesus was 'old'.
Now I see God training Jesus and watching Him experience what we call life and, because of His superior training by God, He never caves in to sin in any way.
Can you imagine how proud God would be as a Parent? This to me explains God's constant praise of Jesus throughout Scripture. He is one proud parent, proud of His Son and proud of His parenting skills.
I say this using weak human words made weaker by my weakness, which is great but I hope my point comes through. I mean can any parent say, when his or her child succeeds in something, that you don't feel a good pride in both your child and yourself?
cp
:cloud9: It totally works for me CP. That He was taught by God via His Spirit within Him is the only way it can be, IMO. We tend to forget that Jesus was the born under the OT literal covenant, which means His birth, youth, and final maturity and the cross, were as a type and shadow for us also, born witness by the fact we are told to pick up our cross and follow Him.
If He were perfect at 5 or 10 or 15 and He was not healing the sick and raising the dead, with them in his face every day, then something was wrong. That would be like God Himself standing there watching your sister, brother, mother, father dying, and not lifting a finger to help them when He was standing RIGHT THERE, because He was too "busy" playing with toys or doing carpentry. Yet when He was a mature Son, lacking nothing, He healed all those that were brought to Him with infirmity. Blessings....
Hi All,
Just my thoughts.
Jesus himself was perfect, the part that was with the Father before he became human. The flesh he was in was not perfect because it bore the sins of the world. :happy3: (Rom. 8:8) "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God". Jesus pleased God by destroying sin in the flesh. Jesus resisted the flesh daily thereby learning obedience. While Jesus was in the flesh he said he could do nothing of himself, but neither can we.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2009, 07:07:58 PM
Hi All,
Just my thoughts.
Jesus himself was perfect, the part that was with the Father before he became human. The flesh he was in was not perfect because it bore the sins of the world. :happy3: (Rom. 8:8) "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God". Jesus pleased God by destroying sin in the flesh. Jesus resisted the flesh daily thereby learning obedience. While Jesus was in the flesh he said he could do nothing of himself, but neither can we.
CHB
I agree Jesus was perfect, for nothing out of God is imperfect in the sense we think of imperfection IMO. Yet Scripture indicates again and again that Jesus was made perfect through sufferings. So, we must adimit, that Jesus could not have been perfect at first if He needed to be made perfect via sufferings. I explain this to myself as Jesus was created but not created like we think of creation. I think He was created in the mind of God which makes 'Him' real as real can be and also makes true the fact that Jesus was always with God.
The perfecting of Jesus is the bringing of all mankind and creation to perfection I'm thinkin. God 'thought' this whole thing through from Adam to Jesus.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 22, 2009, 06:43:42 PM
Another thought, sorry!
I picturing God making something much like Himself in that 'it' can think and act according to 'it's' thoughts. I'm picturing God putting all sorts of things, good and bad, in front of His creation. Now here's what moves me emotionally a bit, as I am not an emotional person in many regards, anyway, what moves me is the thought that God is flexing His muscle a bit or challenging Himself in a way. What I mean is this. I see God making a thinking, feeling creature, knowing it needs to encounter situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong so it can be perfected.
Now I see God saying to Himself that He will allow all sorts of temptations to overcome this creation yet I will be the perfect parent and I will train up my 'child' in the way it should go and when it is OLD it will not depart from my ways. Adam was young, Jesus was 'old'.
Now I see God training Jesus and watching Him experience what we call life and, because of His superior training by God, He never caves in to sin in any way.
Can you imagine how proud God would be as a Parent? This to me explains God's constant praise of Jesus throughout Scripture. He is one proud parent, proud of His Son and proud of His parenting skills.
I say this using weak human words made weaker by my weakness, which is great but I hope my point comes through. I mean can any parent say, when his or her child succeeds in something, that you don't feel a good pride in both your child and yourself?
cp
do you think God is proud of you and me??
Clay, I was also with you and God before the foundation of the world...
JC did not sin in the literal Jewish Rule system, Way...
When using the word Perfect, I mean "Whole and Complete" as it is used in the lousy versions of the bible...
Sin, IS transgression of the above Rules...
I will never believe that the man Jesus BC, was what the Webster's define as perfect... no one is perfect cause when he picked his nose, it was an offense to someone. or any other issue that a person finds offense is "their definition" of sinful behavior. (imperfection)
Lee Damboise II IMO--No Offense I hope, (no pun intended)
Quote from: Zeek on October 22, 2009, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: claypot on October 22, 2009, 06:43:42 PM
Another thought, sorry!
I picturing God making something much like Himself in that 'it' can think and act according to 'it's' thoughts. I'm picturing God putting all sorts of things, good and bad, in front of His creation. Now here's what moves me emotionally a bit, as I am not an emotional person in many regards, anyway, what moves me is the thought that God is flexing His muscle a bit or challenging Himself in a way. What I mean is this. I see God making a thinking, feeling creature, knowing it needs to encounter situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong so it can be perfected.
Now I see God saying to Himself that He will allow all sorts of temptations to overcome this creation yet I will be the perfect parent and I will train up my 'child' in the way it should go and when it is OLD it will not depart from my ways. Adam was young, Jesus was 'old'.
Now I see God training Jesus and watching Him experience what we call life and, because of His superior training by God, He never caves in to sin in any way.
Can you imagine how proud God would be as a Parent? This to me explains God's constant praise of Jesus throughout Scripture. He is one proud parent, proud of His Son and proud of His parenting skills.
I say this using weak human words made weaker by my weakness, which is great but I hope my point comes through. I mean can any parent say, when his or her child succeeds in something, that you don't feel a good pride in both your child and yourself?
cp
do you think God is proud of you and me??
I think God is so proud of us He can hardly hold whatever He can let out, in! I really do. I think God is a perfect Parent and He knows He trained us (is training us) in the way we should go and He knows His training won't fail because it worked with Jesus (and of course, God cannot fail!), so proud is an understatement of what God feels and thinks when He thinks of us.
Zeek, I would also add that God is not only proud of us, He has faith in us and that means a lot to me. His faith in me is more important to me than my faith in Him.
What do you think, Zeek?
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on October 22, 2009, 07:02:37 PM
:cloud9: It totally works for me CP. That He was taught by God via His Spirit within Him is the only way it can be, IMO. We tend to forget that Jesus was the born under the OT literal covenant, which means His birth, youth, and final maturity and the cross, were as a type and shadow for us also, born witness by the fact we are told to pick up our cross and follow Him.
If He were perfect at 5 or 10 or 15 and He was not healing the sick and raising the dead, with them in his face every day, then something was wrong. That would be like God Himself standing there watching your sister, brother, mother, father dying, and not lifting a finger to help them when He was standing RIGHT THERE, because He was too "busy" playing with toys or doing carpentry. Yet when He was a mature Son, lacking nothing, He healed all those that were brought to Him with infirmity. Blessings....
Great stuff card. I mean it. You are good with words. I'm going to re-read them right now, again.
cp
Quote from: Lee Damboise on October 22, 2009, 08:25:11 PM
Clay, I was also with you and God before the foundation of the world...
JC did not sin in the literal Jewish Rule system, Way...
When using the word Perfect, I mean "Whole and Complete" as it is used in the lousy versions of the bible...
Sin, IS transgression of the above Rules...
I will never believe that the man Jesus BC, was what the Webster's define as perfect... no one is perfect cause when he picked his nose, it was an offense to someone. or any other issue that a person finds offense is "their definition" of sinful behavior. (imperfection)
Lee Damboise II IMO--No Offense I hope, (no pun intended)
Lee, I don't see any reason for offense at all.
I too think you and I were together before the foundation of the world because God had to 'think us up' before we could be and the nano second He thought us up, we were.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 22, 2009, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: Zeek on October 22, 2009, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: claypot on October 22, 2009, 06:43:42 PM
Another thought, sorry!
I picturing God making something much like Himself in that 'it' can think and act according to 'it's' thoughts. I'm picturing God putting all sorts of things, good and bad, in front of His creation. Now here's what moves me emotionally a bit, as I am not an emotional person in many regards, anyway, what moves me is the thought that God is flexing His muscle a bit or challenging Himself in a way. What I mean is this. I see God making a thinking, feeling creature, knowing it needs to encounter situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong so it can be perfected.
Now I see God saying to Himself that He will allow all sorts of temptations to overcome this creation yet I will be the perfect parent and I will train up my 'child' in the way it should go and when it is OLD it will not depart from my ways. Adam was young, Jesus was 'old'.
Now I see God training Jesus and watching Him experience what we call life and, because of His superior training by God, He never caves in to sin in any way.
Can you imagine how proud God would be as a Parent? This to me explains God's constant praise of Jesus throughout Scripture. He is one proud parent, proud of His Son and proud of His parenting skills.
I say this using weak human words made weaker by my weakness, which is great but I hope my point comes through. I mean can any parent say, when his or her child succeeds in something, that you don't feel a good pride in both your child and yourself?
cp
do you think God is proud of you and me??
I think God is so proud of us He can hardly hold whatever He can let out, in! I really do. I think God is a perfect Parent and He knows He trained us (is training us) in the way we should go and He knows His training won't fail because it worked with Jesus (and of course, God cannot fail!), so proud is an understatement of what God feels and thinks when He thinks of us.
Zeek, I would also add that God is not only proud of us, He has faith in us and that means a lot to me. His faith in me is more important to me than my faith in Him.
What do you think, Zeek?
cp
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Clay, I don't want to appear to be bashing your post, although I have to say this,
you said " situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong, so it can be perfected", Now what I get from that statement is that "your thinking patterns are" that a person has to do right; Law; or Rules {you chose as is in God's 'book'} that you think that God needs you to obey in order to be Complete, Whole, or Perfect?
Are you suggesting that humans need to follow the do's and don't's to be perfected???
Lee Damboise II sinfreeforever@gmx.ru
Quote from: Lee Damboise on October 22, 2009, 10:27:53 PM
Clay, I don't want to appear to be bashing your post, although I have to say this,
you said " situations (suffering) where it can do right or wrong, so it can be perfected", Now what I get from that statement is that "your thinking patterns are" that a person has to do right; Law; or Rules {you chose as is in God's 'book'} that you think that God needs you to obey in order to be Complete, Whole, or Perfect?
Are you suggesting that humans need to follow the do's and don't's to be perfected???
Lee Damboise II sinfreeforever@gmx.ru
Yes and no Lee.
Humans need only to be what God intends them to be to be perfected.
What would you say that God wants you to be? How does God want you to act do you think?
cp
I agree with your assment of the bulk of your post and posts, I just believe in the total leading of revelation that comes from the Spirit. and not laws of old or new testament. Like it says in the bulk of the verse in Matt 15:17-18 : not revealed it unto you--and upon THIS rock I will build My church.
too many people don't see the hidden in these verses, i.e. the building of God's new church is and always will be Personal Revelation from God and not from a man named Peter. Or any Pope, Pastor's rules, Minister's understanding etc...
God talks to me every second, Minute, Hour, and Day...
Lee Damboise II and I Listen and obey most of the time, when I don't, I suffer my bad choices. "for correction of course"
I hear ya Lee. If it's not of the spirit, it's probably, at the least, wasted time and at the most, downright sinful.
I suppose we need some rules and regulations to govern our fleshly activities but I don't think God is too concerned about these things. If we are following the spirit we should be living pretty well physically.
cp
:cloud9: I agree too, Lee.......what I found is this; in the beginning of our walk, the law/letter defined our experiences with the Spirit of God, to establish RELATIONSHIP, with that Spirit. Then as we matured, the Spirit defined the law/letter. Blessings....
This is the first that I've seen this thread. As far as what's on that website that's quoted below, the old "Behold the power of cheese" commercials in the US come to mind :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: claypot on October 21, 2009, 03:56:16 PM
This is from the site someone mentioned on this forum a few days ago.
http://www.universalsalvation.org/page10.htm
As for being perfect, even Jesus was not perfect. "Come off it, everyone knows that Jesus was perfect." Then everyone is wrong. Jesus was not perfect. Look at Hebrews 2:10: "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." If you don't believe it, read it again. Jesus was made perfect through sufferings. If Jesus was made perfect through sufferings, how on earth could He have been already perfect? Full truth was not available, even to Him, until after His death and resurrection. There was no evidence, right up to His death, that He would not sin, until it was proven.
I like the site but I wanted some comments on these words if anyone would be so kind.
cp
WE ALL, LIKE PAUL, HARBOUR A THORN IN OUR SIDE!
Lest the flesh exhaut itself above the spirit.
Hebrews 2:8-11 (Concordant Literal, Translation)...
8 All dost Thou subject underneath his feet." For in the subjection of all to him, He leaves nothing unsubject to him. Yet now we are not as yet seeing all subject to him.
9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made some bit inferior to messengers (because of the suffering of death, wreathed with glory and honor), so that in the grace of God, He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone.
10 For it became Him, because of Whom all is, and through Whom all is, in leading many sons into glory, to perfect the Inaugurator of their salvation through sufferings.
11 For both He Who is hallowing and those who are being hallowed are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to be calling them brethren...
Several words in the N.T. incorporate the basic Greek teleo, or, telos, as well as several other forms of this word, all meaning some aspect of "end," "finish," "complete," "consummation," and "mature." The Authorized Version uses "perfect" a lot. Knoch, in his usual terse economy of expression says of teleo, "finish," "Not in the sense of cessation but of accomplishment."
It is very misleading to read about the perfecting of the Inaugurator and assume that means He was morally deficient, sinfull even, prior to becoming perfect. A little green apple is perfect, but not mature. Even the apple blossom, so powerfully expressing its lifeform in beauty for so fragile a flower, perfect for what it is, yet is only a phase, a segment in a series of forms on the way to completing its path to reproduction, where the seed dies that another form, a new apple life may come forth.
A few years ago a preacher where I hung out for a while thought it was important that people be recognized for their ministries. If they were teachers they should be called teachers. He believed he was an apostle. He wanted to be addressed with that title. Not volunteering any agreement with him (I mean, to come up with a satisfactory definition of an "apostle" all by itself is frought with more than enough difficulties to keep us preoccupied for quite a while) and in hopes I would be overlooked in the matter, what else? he had to ask me, "Do you think I'm an apostle?" I told him a little green apple is perfect, just not mature yet." Whew! Somehow it was enough to get me off the hook. To a recent brother's sudden confession that he believes he is annointed to the office of an apostle (before getting into why the term "office" is not appropriate for conceiving of the organic integration with the life of Jesus functioning in what we've called New Covenant ministries, that it is a concept borrowed from Gentile bureachracies) I answered, "If you hadn't been taught wrong, you'd think you're the Pope."
This thing about Jesus being perfect... I had been fasting and I saw someone years ago, in the 70's, whose every wrinkle in his jeans, every gesture, the way the wind tousled his hair, the interplay of sun and shadow, and so much more was perfectly in some kind of pattern superior to anything I'd previously imagined. Because of liberty and love he radiated, the perfection of "the way" manifesting in every appearance of his image, I thought of an angel, then, how some are already entered into things pertaining to the resurrection. I remembered the word they told John after he had eaten the little scroll, "You must prophesy again over peoples and nations and languages and many kings." (Revelation 10:11, CLT) "Perhaps John had been raised for we are entering into the time of his prophecying again," was what I imagined as a possibility, however that seems to fall short in the light of today. About two weeks later I saw on televised news the same person pass from left to right behind a newsman in what was ancient Persia and he was saying something. There was some crisis there that, to my understanding at the time, was possibly significant in view of certain prophecies. What he was saying was very faintly picked up by the newsmans microphone and I could read his lips. He said, "The second coming of Jesus Christ is very near."
There is so much of an undervaluing of the potential in the Holy Spirit. We are human so it is somewhat expected; but, all the way from Tauons and Quarks to Galactic clusters and from the magnificent patterns in the frost and the life of a virus to man himself, God is both the observer and the immediately cause. His attention on anyone will cause fantastic patterns to emerge and events and contexts that reveal His unique glory. I'm convinced that "the way, the truth, and the life" incarnate was so in the focus of God's consciousness that the working of the Holy Spirit was so intensified as to make every tone of voice, every gesture of His, every twinkle of His eys, His placement into the setting in which He was present, all that kind of thing was so phenomenal that those Who saw Him said: "...the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14, CLT)
Jesus laid aside whatever was the Divine form, (cp., Philippians 2:5-11) "He emptied Himself," what in Greek was called kenosis, in order to be expressed as a real human being. He even went so far as to be subject to His Father's will in going to His death at the hand of wicked men under false pretences. But as an annointed man he was, so affected by God's manifesting presence accompanying Him, His friend says, "...there are many other things also, which Jesus does, which, if they should be written, one by one, I am surmising not even the world itself would contain the written scrolls." John 21:25 (CLT)
I think another passage that would add fuel to the assertion that Jesus was not perfect is this exchange:
"As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. 'Good teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone.'" (Mark 10:17-18)
Surely, if Jesus had been perfect at that point in time, then he would have been good as well.
Do good people die? The wages of sin in death.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 23, 2009, 07:26:20 AM
About two weeks later I saw on televised news the same person pass from left to right behind a newsman in what was ancient Persia and he was saying something. There was some crisis there that, to my understanding at the time, was possibly significant in view of certain prophecies. What he was saying was very faintly picked up by the newsmans microphone and I could read his lips. He said, "The second coming of Jesus Christ is very near."
:cloud9: When I got to this part, it hit me you might have been experiencing a "higher" form of interpretation of tongues. I did not know until I was fasting this whole summer, that such a thing existed, but it does. Blessings......
I think Jesus's spirit was perfect but he hadn't yet perfected the flesh. He had to suffer to do that (as we all suffer in life) and die (without sin) (something we can't do), thus he lived a sinless life for mankind and conquered death.
(The wages of sin is death). Death had no control over him and he rose again on the third day. (Why the third I have no idea).
:cloud9: Amen........ :thumbsup:
A strong thought I had a long time ago and somehow this thread reinforces it is that God is training His children in way they should go and when we are OLD they/we will not depart from it.
cp
Thank you reFormer, that was very emotional post for me.
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: reFORMer on October 23, 2009, 07:26:20 AM
It is very misleading to read about the perfecting of the Inaugurator and assume that means He was morally deficient, sinfull even, prior to becoming perfect.
Hey Ref,
I don't hear and can't imagine anyone here even suggesting Jesus the Christ was morally deficient or sinfull at any time.
I like your analogy of the green apple. I think Jesus is a perfect expression of God's thinking process in a sense. God thought up man, mankind, creation. God saw the making of man from Adam to Jesus.
If Scripture says that Jesus was perfected then I take that to suggest He was in some kind of imperfect state somewhere along the line and I think that was when the first Adam prevailed. Jesus is the perfect finished product, crudely put, but He needed finishing I'm thinking.
Do you see Jesus as imperfect at any point? Imperfect but sinless. Perfectly imperfect.
cp
Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"? Mark 14:38 says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2009, 06:57:27 PM
Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"? Mark 14:38 says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.
CHB
what to you is "flesh"?
Christ was sinless and the spotless lamb of God.
He knew no sin.
The word "perfect" uses the same Greek word for "mature" and "finish."
Heb 2:10 For it became Him, because of Whom all is, and through Whom all is, in leading many sons into glory, to perfect (mature, finish) the Inaugurator of their salvation through sufferings."
Quote from: Tony N on October 23, 2009, 10:59:53 PM
Christ was sinless and the spotless lamb of God.
He knew no sin.
The word "perfect" uses the same Greek word for "mature" and "finish."
Heb 2:10 For it became Him, because of Whom all is, and through Whom all is, in leading many sons into glory, to perfect (mature, finish) the Inaugurator of their salvation through sufferings."
I thought of that too Tony. What are you thinking it means then to say to mature the Inaugurator..............or to finish the Inaugurator.............
Are you saying Jesus was immature in some way? Or unfinished?
I fully agree Christ was sinless and the spotless Lamb of God.
cp
Tony,
What about these holy words................
And he said unto them, Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. lk13.32
Is Jesus, by implication, saying He wasn't perfected yet?
cp
Quote from: Zeek on October 23, 2009, 07:19:01 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 23, 2009, 06:57:27 PM
Jesus was sinless and perfect but his flesh was not. Remember it says "the flesh profiteth nothing"? Mark 14:38 says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Jesus was just living in this fleshly body, that is how he conquered it 1Peter 3:18.
CHB
what to you is "flesh"?
Hi Zeek,
(1Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.
(1Peter 4:1-2) For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
(Rom. 8:3) God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
chb
KJV Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I don't want to slander Jesus or anything like that; but I don't want to ignore verses that don't suit me either.
If I read the verses listed above Jesus was not perfect. Perfect is perfect. Perfect can't be made more perfect otherwise it was not perfect to begin with. Jesus needed to learn obedience.
I asked a few times why God didn't create us perfect from the start. The answers I got were always similar to we need to learn what good/evil/love/hate is.
Jesus is our guiding light. But would He really be that if He was perfect and nothing in His life caused Him even the slightest problem?
I know many won't like the following question...
If the wages of sin is death; doesn't that mean that if Jesus was sinless He wouldn't have died?
I have to add that the word "perfect" often means perfect for a certain task. Same with the word good.
It starts in Genesis. Creation was good, very good, perfect, depending on the translation.
But not much later the mess started. Adam and Eve sinned. Throughout the Bible hints are given the earth is decaying and will be replaced by something better. That can't be if it was perfect.
Currently I don't know how that would help us with this topic; but I wouldn't be suprised at all if the perfect has a similar meaning. Just a wild guess. Jesus was already perfect for heaven so didn't need to do anything more to deserve heaven. But for His saviour task he wasn't perfect He needed to learn suffering. That training He got on earth.
:Peace:
Just a thought - perfect can also mean 'mature'. Also, maybe there can be some sort of distinction made (at least at times and in some situations, and to some degree - nuances) between 'sinless' and 'perfect'...not sure. To be honest, I haven't dug into this topic...I DO believe Jesus was sinless, I'm sure scripture says that...haven't looked hard at the 'perfect' part.
I'll add another thought. Is mortal flesh ever perfect (at least to this point in time)? I.e., anyone in clothing of mortal flesh might have heartburn from time to time, a stomach cramp, a cut on a finger, a wart, 5 pounds over ideal weight? Could it be that anything in Jesus that was divine was perfect, but things that were of His humanity did indeed have some room to grow, mature - become perfect? Even the part of Him that had human emotions, for instance. He didn't sin, but was there some measure of control or growth, etc. to be obtained there? I don't know. I may not know what I'm talking about, tossing some ideas out.
I think perfect and sinless not always are the same thing.
Sin simply means missing the mark. Even if Jesus possibly was not perfect, He did hit the mark of accomplishing our salvation. So that means He didn't sin.
Quote from: jabcat on October 24, 2009, 10:40:56 AM
I DO believe Jesus was sinless, I'm sure scripture says that...
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Good, thanks. Wasn't sure where it was at. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Confusing, isn't it? I'm going to say some things that are hard to hear, because the Spirit has to make them life in you. I'm not saying them for debate. So; as I said before, He was born under the OT covenant. His birth had to be a type and shadow for our spiritual new birth. God the Father taught Him the same way He teaches us, ie. comparing natural to spiritual and spiritual to natural.
Not that you have to take my word for anything, but He spoke this very thing to me within a few months of being saved, ie. that He was teaching me the same way He TAUGHT Jesus. Not having a religious background meant that that was not anything earth shattering to me to receive, because I was not brought up in the RCC or the protestant churches that heavily and unknowingly, bought into their influence about the "perfectly divine from birth" doctrine.
Just as an acorn contains all it needs to BECOME a giant oak tree, so too did He contain all He needed to BECOME a fully mature and perfect/complete (according to pattern of the Seed), Son of God. It was spoken/prophesied over Him before His birth. The Word has been spoken/prophesied over us that we are to become the sons of God, ie. fully matured as well, with our new birth/addition of His Spirit/Seed.
We are the "dirt" He the Seed was planted in, and He will come to full maturity IN us, AS us, just as that same Spirit Seed came to full maturity in Jesus. This is how Jesus was the express image of the Father, ie. the Spirit Seed within Him reproduced it's nature THRU Him.
So the only way this need for Him to be made perfect of complete could work is if He too was birthed into a veil of forgetfulness for a season, to prevent Him from remembering who He was before He came into the flesh, just as He has us.
Another thing He spoke to me during that time period, and by speak I mean the still small voice as a thought, that you recognize is not your thought; one day He told me I was not really learning all these things in the Word, but rather REMEMBERING them via the Holy Spirit bringing to my remembrance all things. You can't remember something you never knew previously. We learn things thru the carnal mind, but we remember things in this sense of remembering He is talking about here, via the Spirit. There is the difference between the carnal mind and the mind of Christ, in a nutshell.
This is why He said at the last supper/Passover Seder, when He broken the bread and shared what would have been the 3rd of the 4 cups of wine (the 4th was the one He spoke of NOT having until He had it new with them), do this often in REMEMBRANCE of me. True communion with God is breaking/opening the Word/bread with the light/Spirit/wine of the candlestick.
The measure of the stature of Christ, who is Spirit, is that which you have received or had translated out of the carnal mind knowledge into Spirit, is all that counts as that full measure of stature.
We were one with Him from the foundation of the world, just as He was one with the Father from the foundation of the world, and us. He was given pre-eminence in all things, because He was the firstborn and therefore the Seed of the Father, like a prototype. The difference was that because of this, the firstborn according the law spoken by the Father, was that the firstborn received a DOUBLE PORTION.
That we, the heirs of salvation, might receive the same, He became poor that we might become rich, which means also, that we receive the inheritance of the FIRSTBORN, who is Spirit. First born of the Spirit, then born of the flesh. This is why it says we are joint heirs with Christ and not joint heirs with Jesus, if you really want to split hairs. Jesus was the flesh and blood that Christ, the anointed One, who IS the Seed of God, appeared in. The Father is a Spirit and because all seeds bear fruit after their own kind, His Seed was a Spirit also. It is this Seed that went into the ground and quickened His MORTAL body, ie. if the SAME SPIRIT is in you, that raised JESUS from the dead.....
Compare that thought with........Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead (we are the dead in Christ) will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25)
And this......Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs (our stony heart is the tomb) will hear His voice, (John 5:28)
And again, this is revelation that must come from the Father, just as it did to Peter, when asked basically, who is it that is talking to you, and he said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus the man, speaking as the Spirit Seed of God, said that He only spoke what He heard His Father, His Head speak.
This is essentially the same thing that is happening to us, that happened to Him, much earlier in His life. He had a soul, His Spirit was continually "impregnating" and then bringing to "birth" the things the Spirit brought to His remembrance; for remember, faith (impregnation with thought of the Spirit) without works (acting on thought of the Spirit) is dead.
So I see two that FULLY became one or complete, just as we are fully becoming one or complete, to our complete salvation, as the veil of our soul is slowly being rent, just as a woman's "veil" or hymen is "rent", which is what that veil represents.
For we, (though our carnal mind alone), don't know what we will be like, but we know (thru our Spirit man bringing things to our remembrance) that when He appears, we will be like Him. Blessings....
You all are really quite amazing. I am being helped by the words here.
Just a few thoughts............
Even if these words we are discussing do mean 'mature' then I would ask, as I've asked Tony, are they saying Jesus was immature then? So we're back to square one.
I fully believe the whole plan of God is perfect yet is a plan that has a beginning and end which means the end is the matured (perfect) complete aspect while all before it is unfinished, not fully matured, not 'perfect'.
Perfectly imperfect rings in my thoughts all the time and makes sense to me.
We all get caught in such modes of thinking that to consider things like we are considering is seemingly impossible. I value you all so much, as you take these things on. I discuss these same things with my more traditional friends and they last for about 2 or 3 exchanges before they write me off, again, as a heretic. But some do try and it's fun to try to get their gears turning in a different direction.
cp
Matthew 3;
16 Now, being baptized, Jesus straightway stepped up from the water, and lo! opened up to Him were the heavens, and He perceived the spirit of God descending as if a dove, and coming on Him.
Next, it's our turn!
:cloud9: Amen it is, Beloved Servant! We, that have continued to descend into the Jordan by the picking up of our cross and following Him, who went on 2000 cubits/years ahead of us, death will not have any hold on us, just as it didn't on Him.
And CP, you're blessed that your friends let you GET thru 2-3 exchanges before they label you a heretic! :laughing7:
It says that in the 7th day things would be spoken that it was not lawful for a man to speak, and I tell you in this, the 7th day that it is dawning, things are being spoken from on High. Hallelujah! Blessings....
great discussion...
Lee Damboise II