Just the Elect Will be Saved LOL

[Andromeda_Organa]

Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..

Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.

Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.

Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).


Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

God Bless

why are you here?

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps he is here because he is attracted to the gift but has not accepted it yet.
Love calls; bringing us closer and closer to itself.

[Tim B]

Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..

Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.

Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.

Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).


Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

God Bless

It's not really love if he doesn't save everybody. If God really loves human beings, then he would only create human beings that would eventually come to know him. To create a human being that will never come to know God is just a waste of time, and cruelty. I'd be hard pressed to say that there is any human being that would actually, and continually defy God though. If he did, and God wanted to save him, would God not be pretty weak? I mean, look at the world, and see all the destruction humans cause. Honestly, God seems pretty weak if he really wanted to save ALL man (from the average Christian perspective).

[Cat]

This has been an interesting thread....

Tim B said: ''If God really loves human beings, then he would only create human beings that would eventually come to know him. To create a human being that will never come to know God is just a waste of time, and cruelty.''

I think we have to be careful in 'assuming' things about God and His creation.  If we follow Tim's reasoning here, then we could also say, God would create the universe so that evil wouldn't be a reality, as He loves us too much to allow us to suffer, etc etc.

I dont' know if those who are 'destroyed' and don't inherit the Kingdom, will ever be 'saved' eventually - I hope they will be.  At the end of the day, won't the Judge of all the earth, do what is right?  If it turns out that not all people receive immortality, then who are we to 'judge' that God is 'unjust'?

[eaglesway]

Isnt it interesting how folks keep on saying lets just use scripture and then make statements that are found nowhere in scripture (like Jesus dying only for his heaven bound elect) and then give their own statement the weight of scripture while denying scripture ( like Jesus being the propitiation or our sins and not only ours but for the whole world also) and insisting that they know better than the scripture what the scripture means(since scripture must be interpreted with scripture) and they apply their if ands and butts(reasonings) to the scripture as if they superceded the clear black and white statements of the scripture? Have I overused the word "scripture" here? Is this a run on sentence?

[fullarmor2]

         I just noticed your title to this thread and I laughed out loud.  I like how you put LOL at the end.   It really belongs there!   :laughing7:

[Tim B]

         I just noticed your title to this thread and I laughed out loud.  I like how you put LOL at the end.   It really belongs there!   :laughing7:

:laughing7: lol I'm glad you thought it was funny. The idea (of only the elect getting saved) cracked me up when I saw somebody say that a while back on another forum.

[Chris]

Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..

Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.

Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.

Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).


Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

God Bless

That's like saying that God stays in the boat (that we fell out of) and only throws a life preserver into these stormy seas (of life) with the hope that we will not only see it, but have the desire and the strength/ability to get to it - all on our own - so that he can ultimately pull us to safety (so long as WE can do the hard part - which would be much more than just "accepting" his offer of salvation by throwing the life preserver into the water) and be our "saviour".

Clearly God jumped into the water...  :gwink:

and is dragging our sorry butts back to the boat - kicking and screaming, if necessary.  :gwink:

[Chris]

Wide is the road that leads to destruction.
YES. MOST in this world are walking down that road.
It is not the HUMAN BEINGS that will be destroyed, My GOD!!!!
It is their DROSS. The impurities. Their FALSE Beliefs!

The narrow gate leads to... what??? LIFE!

This argument over "eternal torture" is so completely ridiculous and it is holding everyone up. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of a small group of people standing outside a great hall of learning, and they are trying to stop people from entering in by starting some ridiculous argument about who is ALLOWED to go in and screaming about how there are a LOT of people who won't BE ALLOWED to go in. And there are all these passersby... "Who the hell wants to go in there, with all of those angry, screaming people anyway...?" Instead, the people outside of the doorway, should be laying out the welcome signs and shouting "HELLO FRIENDS! Look at what we have found! WE have found a wonderful great hall of learning! Come! COME INSIDE!!! ALL ARE WELCOME! ALL ARE WELCOME!!"

We have a LOT to learn. And this ET argument is just a giant boulder in the path.

BUT, regardless....God's plan will not be hindered.

Those who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal. They are walking on the road of destruction, instead of the road of LIFE!! My God, it isn't about suffering eternal torture. That is not the point of this life. To choose whether or not to be eternally tortured or not. SHeesh! That is INSANE! When the truth enters your heart, you cling to Him and want to cling to Him more and more as you walk about your life. Sin is seen for what it is... If you find happiness in sin, then you do not see sin in the right perspective. Sin is dead.
Sin LEADS to death and destruction. Jesus is LIFE! So many walking that road of destruction ruled by SIN. God wants us to cling to HIM. Cling to LIFE! Sin is here for a reason. It is a teacher. YES we are learning. We are living in this contrast of love and non-love so that we may learn WHO God is!

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

YES. This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER. Because we will have LEARNED what we came to learn, after being subjected to this world of the knowledge of good and evil. All knees will bow. All will come to the foot of the cross and realize just HOW LOVED we are!!!!

The TREE of knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden for A REASON y'all. The fall of mankind was planned from the beginning. This is ALL part of God's plan.

"Adam and Eve" did not TRULY understand. They were ignorant of how TRULY magnificent their Creator is. They were ignorant of WHO the Creator is. They were ignorant of the difference between LOVE and NON-LOVE. This is what THEY (WE) needed to learn. We HAD to come and put on mortal so we could STAND BACK and SEE our Creator for WHO He really is, otherwise we would have NEVER known. Otherwise, we would have been ignorant children. God would not have us be ignorant. Ignorance, is *NOT* bliss. KNOWLEDGE is bliss! A HUGE part of the GLORY of "heaven" is coming out of ignorance into the KNOWLEDGE of WHO are Father is, and that LOVE conquers all. It's the ONLY way that we can finally put on INCORRUPTION, so that MORTALITY can put on IMMORTALITY. God's plan is FLAWLESS. It has ALWAYS BEEN flawless.

We are talking about the CREATOR of the universe... and some folks think he is going to torture His creation for all eternity? Give Him a little more credit than that. His plan is PERFECT as HE IS PERFECT.

You'll see.

:thumbsup: (very nicely said!!)

[Chris]

Wondered once,  :grin: if perhaps we are not ALL "God's elect", as Israel is God's "elect" and we are all (by birth or adoption) now part of the commonwealth of Israel.  :dontknow:

[peacemaker]

"The way, truth, and life that God prepared for the health of everyone is a fruit product of infinite wisdom; powerfully efficacious, from beginning to end."

peacemaker

[Shadow]

Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

Here's an even better analogy

There once was a king who had 20 children

He deliberately decided to have 20 children with one sole purpose in mind, after all he was king and had to answer to nobody

He was going to choose one of them to bestow love and kindness on, the child he chose he would bestow his unconditional love on and she would be his little princess and would want for nothing, she could have everything her heart desired..to her he was an extremely loving and doting father and she adored him...she cared nothing for her siblings, all she saw was her loving daddy who doted on her alone

The other 19 children however were not so fortunate, they were there for the express purpose for being abused by their father, every day they had to endure menial hard labour as well as severe floggings whenever they stepped out of line (sometimes they were beaten unconscious), their diet consisted mainly of dry bread and water, and they had to take turns in serving the king and his little princess with the loveliest and scrumptious meals, if anything wasn't to the kings liking there would be hell to pay, especially if his little princess threw a tantrum, which was often as she was fussy and spoilt and liked to see her siblings in trouble...she especially enjoyed seeing her siblings getting beaten

Unlike the little princess that wanted for nothing and had a comfortable bed to sleep in, the 19 rejects had to sleep in dark dungeons with no mattresses and only hard benches with the bare minimum of bedding

Many people would call this King unfair and unrighteous and unloving and rightly so

They at least had some moments of hope in their lives, albeit brief......

During the beatings where they were knocked unconscious, at least they had a time out and knew no more momentarily

They at least were afforded a few hours of rest at night, they were not tortured 24/7/365, although their lives were hard

Best of all they all lived in hope that one day they could escape the nightmare


Believe it or not, this king was far more loving than your god, as at least with his victims there was a form/hope of escape

BTW great response Chris (I saw you reply to me in another thread and am reading the page you linked)

[Tim B]

Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

Here's an even better analogy

There once was a king who had 20 children

He deliberately decided to have 20 children with one sole purpose in mind, after all he was king and had to answer to nobody

He was going to choose one of them to bestow love and kindness on, the child he chose he would bestow his unconditional love on and she would be his little princess and would want for nothing, she could have everything her heart desired..to her he was an extremely loving and doting father and she adored him...she cared nothing for her siblings, all she saw was her loving daddy who doted on her alone

The other 19 children however were not so fortunate, they were there for the express purpose for being abused by their father, every day they had to endure menial hard labour as well as severe floggings whenever they stepped out of line (sometimes they were beaten unconscious), their diet consisted mainly of dry bread and water, and they had to take turns in serving the king and his little princess with the loveliest and scrumptious meals, if anything wasn't to the kings liking there would be hell to pay, especially if his little princess threw a tantrum, which was often as she was fussy and spoilt and liked to see her siblings in trouble...she especially enjoyed seeing her siblings getting beaten

Unlike the little princess that wanted for nothing and had a comfortable bed to sleep in, the 19 rejects had to sleep in dark dungeons with no mattresses and only hard benches with the bare minimum of bedding

Many people would call this King unfair and unrighteous and unloving and rightly so

They at least had some moments of hope in their lives, albeit brief......

During the beatings where they were knocked unconscious, at least they had a time out and knew no more momentarily

They at least were afforded a few hours of rest at night, they were not tortured 24/7/365, although their lives were hard

Best of all they all lived in hope that one day they could escape the nightmare


Believe it or not, this king was far more loving than your god, as at least with his victims there was a form/hope of escape

BTW great response Chris (I saw you reply to me in another thread and am reading the page you linked)

Man, even that would be an absolutely monstrous image of a god, let alone a god that eternally torments his children. That is an absolute MONSTER. >:(

[WhiteWings]

Man, even that would be an absolutely monstrous image of a god, let alone a god that eternally torments his children. That is an absolute MONSTER. >:(

Tim,

Please come to understanding while you still can! Please!

The prince of darkness is hiding the full glory of God from you!
But one day Tim, I assure you, the King of Light will rip away your veils and together you will laugh when the anoited Cherubs will roast toddler Jimmy because he stole a cookie.
And the prince of darkness? Well he is gnashing teeth because he can no longer veil the full glory of the King of Light.

Choose well Tim! Your prince will be defeated!

:sigh: :mshock:

Signed,
Pastor Grim, 5000 Farenheit Ministry

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I partially agree with Cat, who basically says that God can do whatever He likes with all of us. We tend to forget that part. That will always be true.

Still, I look at the 5th chapter of Romans and before I finish it I get all excited inside. That's because Paul compares the Second Adam (Christ) to the first Adam. And he says that the first Adam spread death and condemnation throughout the world through one sin. But the Second Adam spread grace and life throughout the world through His obedience!!

The church keeps talking about the state of the world up until Christ. But it refuses to consider the notion that Paul wants us to understand in Romans 5, and that is:
the Second Adam has transferred life to all men. Just as we didn't ask to be born sinners (before Christ came), now we also don't ask to be born into the life He has given the world! They just don't see it! It's too hard to believe that God would just wipe the slate clean without our asking! According to man's reasoning, that wouldn't be "fair."

Our would it???

Love to all,
Brian

[Molly]

I partially agree with Cat, who basically says that God can do whatever He likes with all of us. We tend to forget that part. That will always be true.

Actually, it's not true.  If it were true, that would make him an unpredictable and capricious God, a terror, like all those other gods out there.   All you have to do is look at his orderly universe to see it's not true.  The sun is coming up this morning again, just like every morning of my life.  We can take him at his word and trust his promises to us.

...and he... was called Faithful and True...

--Rev 19

[Akira Takahashi]

A question I always want to ask Calvinists is, "If God has already determined your eternal fate before you were born, then why preach to those who are sinful?"

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Yes, I agree with you Molly. It's also true that God truly is good and we can trust in Him on that. My point was simply: He's above, we're below. Even Jesus the Son will be no "higher" than any of us, just one of us. When God is all in all.

What I see as so problematic is how people (including the "church") are able to see the totality of the consequences of Adam's fall, but they can't see that the restoration has been even more total!!!

Brian

[Beloved Servant]

PAUL TO THE PHILIPPIANS:

6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

the name of Jesus

[Tim B]

PAUL TO THE PHILIPPIANS:

6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

the name of Jesus

Yay! :boogie:

[Gab]

A question I always want to ask Calvinists is, "If God has already determined your eternal fate before you were born, then why preach to those who are sinful?"

I have noticed that, without exception, those who find glory and goodness in God despite the prospect of God sending most to eternal torment are conveniently not in the group of those given such a fate.  I wonder why we never see anyone praising and loving God while being absolutely convinced that he or she will be tormented forever...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Maybe because the Spirit is not divided? Blessings.....

[Gab]

Was a rhetorical question. :P

[Cardinal]

Was a rhetorical question. :P

:cloud9: Was a humorous reply. (That apparently failed  :laughing7:)

[sparrow]

Was a rhetorical question. :P

:cloud9: Was a humorous reply. (That apparently failed  :laughing7:)

Cardinal, you're funny.  :grin: