Mk 9.43

[Zeek]

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

[Zeek]

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

1Co 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[Tony N]

Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?

Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.

[Beloved Servant]

They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand than to use it to keep the fire burning.

[Taffy]

Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?

Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.

First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness ,  :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand that to use it to keep the fire burning.

I really do believe that, for the Jew, it would be better to cut off the offending hand rather than risk the judgment of Gehenna and lose out on the glorious kingdom on earth. Don't you think that's a pretty good exchange? I'd probably have to wrench out both my eyes and cut off both my hands if I were under law. Thank God for grace!

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.
And thank you Father for the wisdom to no longer walk in the natural yearnings of our flesh.
To put the old man to death.
Not to crucify Christ over and over again.

[Tony N]

Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?

Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.

First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness ,  :icon_flower:

Don't you mean: First the soulish then the spiritual? First Adam (who is soulish) then the spiritual (one) which is Christ? :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?

Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.

First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness ,  :icon_flower:

Don't you mean: First the soulish then the spiritual? First Adam (who is soulish) then the spiritual (one) which is Christ? :laughing7:

lol :icon_flower:

sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts  :happy3:

:icon_flower:

[wilmont]

They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand than to use it to keep the fire burning.

I understand these as "saving knowledge teachings".
This one is know as "cause of the hand"...or what makes you hand sin (what causes you to sin).
Sin is an actual "action" or an "attempt" at transgression.
You don't sin in your mind literally.....the cause of the action of sinning starts in your mind.
As a man thinketh, so he does.

If you think long enough about adultery with a person, you will go out of your way evetually to put yourself in a position to committ the sin.

The cause of the hand that sins.

Your sins are forgiven, now don't intentionally sin anymore if you don't want the condemnation.

[wilmont]

Remember sacrifices never really work (for those of you who believe in literal sacrifices / deity appeasement) with intentional wilful defiant sins (levitical sacrifices are only for sins of ignorance that become known).

So if you don't want the FIREY EXPECTATION, then don't intentionally transgress (control the cause of the hand).

See Num. 15:27-31 and NT commentary in Heb. 10:26;

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Knowledge of truth = Gd love and forgives you...the Jesus Gospel

[Cardinal]

sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts  :happy3:

:icon_flower:

:cloud9: Aw, come on, Taff.......what's 1499 more among friends?  :winkgrin: :laughing7:

[Taffy]

sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts  :happy3:

:icon_flower:

:cloud9: Aw, come on, Taff.......what's 1499 more among friends?  :winkgrin: :laughing7:

Indeed Card LOL :happygrin: Twas a great thread :icon_flower:

[claypot]

Just a note for now. I'm so excited and in need of your (the gang here) calming advice and thoughts but I am on the run right now so will fill you in in a bit. I have spent literally about 3 days and nights wrestling with the Spirit about 'their' worm that doesn't die and the fire that isn't quenched and I really think I have come up with what Jesus is trying to communicate. It fits with all of Scripture that I can come up with so far and it is very freeing to me personally and I think it will be to any of us who hate sin.

Got to run. How's that for a cliff hanger!!!!! Being I am who I am probably not much of one but for those few of you who 'know' me maybe it is enough to keep you tuned in because again I value your critisisms and thoughts highly.

cp

[claypot]

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}  44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}  46  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}  48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.mark9

First the natural then the spiritual. Some may disagree with these exact words but hopefully the 'spirit' of the message gets seen.

I think Jesus is saying that if we recognize sin in our lives we should cut it off. I think the saying 'where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched' is a saying like 'don't throw the baby out with the bath water'. There is a literal interpretation and much more hidden message. The reason I think it was a 'common' saying is that these words are found in the last words of Isaiah. Jesus uses them liberally, I think, because they were common to many people. These words were around for a long time!

Now, what do they mean and how can they free us from guilt and bondage?

If you are greedy and you realize it Jesus is saying to acknowledge that greed is wrong. This is cutting it off, cutting off the air supply in a sense, like choking the life out of a living thing. Even if we keep falling into the sin, as long as we are cutting off it's life force then we are cutting it off.

Now if we recognize an offense in our behavior and choose not to cut it off then this sin, which is the worm, will not die out but it will increase in strength and passion like a fire that can't be satisfied. It will become a worm that will not die and a passion that will not be quenched or satisfied.

Consider......this fits so well with all of Scripture and life. The rich man and Lazurus......The rich man went to 'hell' without cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye. What was his fate? I believe he continued, in his mind maybe, but somehow he continued in his sin to its natural conclusion. He was so into himself that this worm became a full fledged serpent, and the fire of his passion, his selfishness, led him to his end, much like the prodigal son. Look at him, he no longer demanded or expected that great cups of wine be brought to him. He humbly asked if he could have maybe a lick of someone's finger that was dipped in water! Just a lick. He was concerned about others and so on. He came to his end and what happened to the prodigal when he came to his end in the pig sty? He turned!

Now here is another thought I am working on. I noticed that Jesus is saying we must RECOGNIZE that which is offending us before we can cut it off or pluck it out. Did Hitler recognize that killing Jewish people was a sin and something to be cut out of his life? I don't think so. So Hitler will go to 'hell' where his worm (sin) will be allowed to run it's natural course, whether in his mind or whatever. What would be the natural course of such a worm that doesn't die and such a passion that is never satisfied? After killing all the Jews, he may want to kill African Americans, and then the crippled and then the old and then tall people and then people with red hair and so on and so on until he would be the only one left. I think he would meet his end some time during this horrible journey and he would turn.

And when he came to himself........... luke 15.17

All this fits in so well with what Jesus was saying before and after too. Let the little ones come to me. He is saying, IMO, to keep trying, even in little ways. If you can't beat the sin of over eating or lust or stealing, at least acknowledge it is very wrong and keep cutting it off as much as you can and never give up. Even the little victories, Jesus will acknowledge with great pride in us.

The salt He talks about after. Keep up with the salt. Don't give up. Keep salting your sins with His cleansing power. Salt is good. Salt will kill the worm and the passion for sin.

Jesus also said that those who are not against Him are for Him no matter how ignorant they may be. I think He may be encouraging us to keep cutting sin out of our lives as we recognize it, even though we may be but babes in 'knowing' Him.

Spiritually speaking, to me anyway, I see this as applying to myself and each person individually as well as to all humans corporately. There is sin (a worm, my worm) in me that I don't recognize as sin and, by God's grace and guidance, I will be shown these offending essences as I am able to deal with them. Until then, I am afraid to say, but until then I will follow my worm with passion that is like a fire that won't be quenched. On the other hand I know my worm has been dealt with and broken entirely because of Jesus Christ.

The hand and the foot and the eye that I do recognize as offensive I will always fight by God's grace. I may not win all the time but I really will win all the time if I keep fighting. The hand speaks to me of greed, while the eye speaks to me of lust while the foot conjures up in my mind how sometimes I quickly run into mischief.

Remember Jesus saying how anger leads to murder and how just looking at a woman in a wrong way is like adultery? Sinful thoughts and actions are our worms and the passion with which we pursue them is like a fire that cannot be quenched.

This is long but these words also make me reconsider what the lake of fire is. Maybe more on that later. I also am seeing all the words about torment and outer darkness and those who have a passion for the eternal torment doctrine, I am seeing these all in a new light.

cp

[claypot]

Their worm.

Jesus was using Gehenna to get His spiritual message across. I am told Gehenna was where a lot of bodies of 'bad guys' were thrown upon their death. I suppose as Jesus was conjuring up the image of Gehenna for those around Him, He spoke of the place in it's literal sense and spoke of the worms that moved in and out of the bodies of the men of sin or bad guys. So it was 'their' worm, the worm of the men of sin.

There are times, IMO, where Jesus used natural individual people statements to make His points and there are times when He summed up all people in Adam, singularized His statements.

Does anyone else see this?

cp

[Pierac]

"Gehenna" (γέεννα, geenna), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom ("Valley of Hinnom"). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer_7:31; Jer_19:5-6; Jer_32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were cast and consumed by a constant fire.

We know dead flesh is consumed by maggots, (worms).

During the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D... Josephus claims that 1,100,000 people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish. 97,000 were captured and enslaved, including Simon Bar Giora and John of Gischala. Many fled to areas around the Mediterranean. Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, as there is "no merit in vanquishing people forsaken by their own God".

So what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies? Perhaps many of the people Jesus was warning about Gehenna fire and worms, literally had their body placed there!
During the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D.  I'm sure many of the Jewish religious leaders found themselves dead and in this very spot. There were hundreds of thousands of dead bodies that needed to be disposed of and Gehenna was one such a place already up and running!  :dontknow:


Paul

[WhiteWings]

Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't  find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?

[sparrow]

Does anyone else see this?

cp

Much moreso since I just read your previous post.
CP, that was excellent.

The whole thing. Lazarus... yes! I see that too. I always wondered why that part isn't discussed more in depth. (about him being humbled and learning, etc.) most people (ET people) think the rest of the story is that he is just in hellfire and going to stay there forever. So why is he learning? What a weirdo God would that be for someone to be in darkness on earth, then go to some hell where he can LEARN yet never get out of this prison of "hell" so that he can actually APPLY his learning? That would be a weirdo sick god. Which thankfully, doesn't exist.

What you mentioned about Hitler, man that is a similar scenario I have imagined too. Wow! This whole thing you wrote is striking such a chord in me, bro! Some of this stuff is thoughts that have been swirling around in my brain, too! About what the lake of fire may possibly be, and this stuff "following it's natural conclusion". Coming to the end of it, etc.

But the worm and fire and salt thing, that was awesome. I think you are dead on, bro!
Everything you said totally resonates with me.

Awesome revelation and you really just hit the nail on the head with all of it, as far as I'm concerned. wow. Sorry... if I seem like I keep going on and on, but a lot of stuff in my mind and heart just POW! became crystal clear. It's like it was a dusty piece of glass that I had wiped clean, but then you took out the bottle of windex and shined it all up and now it's REALLY clear.

Thanks bro!! I'm going to copy and save what you wrote. I want to reflect on it some more.
I'm so glad you posted this.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

[claypot]

Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't  find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?

WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!

I think this is the 'spirit' of what Jesus is trying to tell us about what happens if we do not cut off the life supply of our sins.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. I see, in my minds eye, the Divine with a strangle hold on the 'devil'. I see the life slipping from this devil and I see it struggle in it's death throes. Jesus plucked out the right eye, not His, but the one in His Fathers 'Adam'.

cp

[sparrow]

Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't  find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?

WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!

I think this is the 'spirit' of what Jesus is trying to tell us about what happens if we do not cut off the life supply of our sins.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. I see, in my minds eye, the Divine with a strangle hold on the 'devil'. I see the life slipping from this devil and I see it struggle in it's death throes. Jesus plucked out the right eye, not His, but the one in His Fathers 'Adam'.

cp

Yeah... think of Adam and Eve in the garden of eden, (whether people see them as literal, symbolic whatever) and that tree of knowledge of good and evil....you can see how the serpent started out as a worm. How many times did they think about plucking the fruit off of that tree... the worm grew and grew the thought of plucking that fruit was relentless until it became a serpent and overpowered them in their minds. hmmm. Well just a thought.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

That made me think of this:
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

He is our strength, for sure.

[claypot]

Does anyone else see this?

cp

Much moreso since I just read your previous post.
CP, that was excellent.

The whole thing. Lazarus... yes! I see that too. I always wondered why that part isn't discussed more in depth. (about him being humbled and learning, etc.) most people (ET people) think the rest of the story is that he is just in hellfire and going to stay there forever. So why is he learning? What a weirdo God would that be for someone to be in darkness on earth, then go to some hell where he can LEARN yet never get out of this prison of "hell" so that he can actually APPLY his learning? That would be a weirdo sick god. Which thankfully, doesn't exist.

What you mentioned about Hitler, man that is a similar scenario I have imagined too. Wow! This whole thing you wrote is striking such a chord in me, bro! Some of this stuff is thoughts that have been swirling around in my brain, too! About what the lake of fire may possibly be, and this stuff "following it's natural conclusion". Coming to the end of it, etc.

But the worm and fire and salt thing, that was awesome. I think you are dead on, bro!
Everything you said totally resonates with me.

Awesome revelation and you really just hit the nail on the head with all of it, as far as I'm concerned. wow. Sorry... if I seem like I keep going on and on, but a lot of stuff in my mind and heart just POW! became crystal clear. It's like it was a dusty piece of glass that I had wiped clean, but then you took out the bottle of windex and shined it all up and now it's REALLY clear.

Thanks bro!! I'm going to copy and save what you wrote. I want to reflect on it some more.
I'm so glad you posted this.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Thanks Sparrow but you know that many of my thoughts come from you and the others here on this forum. We are a family that I truly appreciate. Thanks for the very kind and encouraging words.

Now I do want to comment on something else now that you have encouraged me.

I see the popular view of eternal torment as a worm. I see it as one that does not die in many cases. I see this worm as a lie that some people grow to learn of and then carry for all their lives and die with it. For many it is a passion much like a fire that is not quenched. Look at the lengths some go to with this passion. They teach and believe that, when in Heaven, believers will look down on those suffering and find comfort! This is a worm that becomes so unquenchable that I believe it becomes a flat out serpent. The doctrine of eternal torment is a serpent (worm) that will never die, it will only grow and grow if left unchecked (plucked out or cut off).

I believe the lie of the eternal torment doctrine, if left unchecked and un-plucked and uncut, and left to run it's course in the hearts and minds of people will bring the people to their end, again, like the prodigal son. What did the prodigal son do when he came to his end? He turned. And for those who say people can't 'turn' in 'hell', I ask them what they liken the pig sty to that the prodigal son was in?

cp

[sparrow]

Yes! Definitely!! The worm of eternal torment... it's so true. It truly does become a serpent if left to grow and it eats and destroys so much. So much passion some end up having for something so horrendous, it chokes out the love in a person's heart and blinds them. Only when it's cut off, cast aside, can that passion be turned around for good, and can grow into real love for others...

ET is like a wall pushing AGAINST a stream of love.

The walls eventually DAMN the stream into a pond. That just sits and festers and becomes slimy and of little effect, stagnant. The walls need to come down, for love to flow.

[WhiteWings]

Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't  find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?

WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!

That's not really proof claypot  :laughing7:
I have zero proof myself but I'll write down my first thought after reading your post.

Genesis 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan eats dust + People are dust = Satan feed on sin/shame/death

The dead bodies were returning to dust in that valley so Satan is present?
It was very shameful (for the family) to be dumped in that valley after death.
It that valley is also spiritual (I think it is because every verse, word and even letter in the Bible has at least two meanings) then being dumped in that valley for the Jews the fell in battle also is about sin. (worm, serpent, dust)
But where ther all bad people? If so then it almost looks like Sodom being wiped out. And that's not just a thought because it's stated the sins of Jerusalem are far gretaer than that of Sodom (but that could also be the present day Jerusalem)

[claypot]

Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't  find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?

WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!

That's not really proof claypot  :laughing7:

I thought you might say that WW but, no respect intended I thought common sense might win the day. You are the most common sense person I know so I thought you would just see it.

Also I might ask "What is proof?"

cp