Hey Gang, I need some help finding some articles on these words especially about what the worm is and so on........... Thanks in advance, cp
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. mk9.43
sorry CP this is a cand p ..made some months ago...Gehenna fire in particular may cause traditionalists to stumble ,and Im afraid that toooooooooo many dont see Christs words as SPIRIT and Life , But see in many places death and ET.
Then we have ,God is a Consuming FIRE , and terms such as Punishment ,destruction etc...they seem to concoct all this into ,the WICKED gets singed to a Cinder for ever and ever , while the Righteous Dwell in the Clouds ,forever immortal.
what gets destroyed as Going through the Flames is the carnal mind \heart,( soul)if you will, our thought Process ,
does that perish, well yes it does ,....our Minds are renewed,as is the soul which never dies.
what persihes is Carnality..to be carnal minded is DEATH
scripture speaks of those who SPEAK from the Grave(tombs) ,... that is those who dwell after law and remain DEAD in their sins,...it is this which needs to perish....
Just consider this verse and those which preceed by comparison...
Ive heard it mentioned that all sin begins in the Heart , so may I ask, what uses is cutting off your hands feet and plucking out your eye, dont you treat the Cause ? some say Hyperbole, I say no, Christ words are Spirit
Mar 9:42
the worm that dieth not, a C and P made to WW
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
Two types
A maggot and a Worm...
towla
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
JUST TO ADD CP
I see hands , feet and the eye as works of the flesh\LAW,[ way of life] the eye [understanding] which needs to perish, better is the LIFE of KNOWING HIM than the shame of NOT
Good stuff Taf, at least what I can understand!
I see Christs words as spirit but I am having a hard time explaining to someone else what the worm is, spiritually speaking.
The fire that is not quenched seems to me to be God Himself.
What is this worm that dies not? The carnal nature dies doesn't it?
cp
hey cp ,good question , I ahve also searched that out a long time ago and forgot most of it :mblush:
good post n Bro G ,,
I am reminded that Jacob is called ''the worm '' before being Changed to Israel sort of like our process or change
means Jacob = "heel holder" or "supplanter"
1) son of Isaac, grandson of Abraham, and father of the 12 patriarchs of the tribes of Israel
and Israel = "God prevails"
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
c) the name of the nation after the return from exile
here is the verse
to me the whole chapter is describing Jesus coming , a prophecy and fulfilling in the new testament :HeartThrob:
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm/towla`
Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Taffy done a good job explaining the two types of worms :thumbsup:
good to see ya posting again bro Taff :winkgrin:
:HeartThrob: rose
But Rose, what about my questions?
What is this worm that dies not? The carnal nature dies doesn't it?
I don't think I'm really hearing what you and Taff are saying.
Jacob is the worm?
cp
Good addition Rose
:thumbsup: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?[ rimmah ] and the son of man, [which is] a worm [Towla]?
I see HIM in ALL men ,But NOT yet revealed :icon_flower:
The worm [Towla ]In us NEVER dies, Hes the seed , the worm[ maggot]
perishes as does all flesh, But is CHANGED , through Death, so even though the WORM being the Maggot, Never Dies., likened to the [butter]fly by being Transformed.
:icon_flower:
Jer 23:40
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 01:39:13 AM
Good addition Rose
:thumbsup: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?[ rimmah ] and the son of man, [which is] a worm [Towla]?
I see HIM in ALL men ,But NOT yet revealed :icon_flower:
The worm [Towla ]In us NEVER dies, Hes the seed , the worm[ maggot]
perishes as does all flesh, But is CHANGED , through Death, so even though the WORM being the Maggot, Never Dies., likened to the butterfly by being Transformed.
:icon_flower:
you said it better than I Taff !
QuoteBut Rose, what about my questions?
What is this worm that dies not? The carnal nature dies doesn't it?
I don't think I'm really hearing what you and Taff are saying.
Jacob is the worm?
cp
Sorry cp , I do struggle to be clear brother ..
:HeartThrob:
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and
look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jesus was just fulfilling this prochecy here by speaking it will continue
was , is and is to come ,
to me its the wrath of man and their anger that wont be put out and will be hated being in the flesh
like the wars and divisions and all the anti christ hatered that continues while mans is in the flesh realm .. the seen and the unseen as Taff was saying ..
I still see it , but that is not what we are anylonger , there is a warning not to get tangled back into that snare of the world ..
I do not know how to explain it ,, sorry bro , I should bow out of this , my words escape me :sigh:
hopefully others can help you better than me :HeartThrob: love rose
:cloud9: He gave me a vision/dream once of the tongue of man and it had LIVING worms in it, both black and white ones. I think this is:
Pr 18:21 - Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Rose, you're a gem. Thanks for your patience.
Taff you're coming through a bit more. You got me thinking about losing our lives to save them.
Jesus was talking to John with these words of worms that die not. He is talking to us, each of us.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. mk9.43
Are you saying the worm does not die, it is changed like the butterfly that was mentioned? A metamorphosis?
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changedheb1.10
cp
QuoteAre you saying the worm does not die, it is changed like the butterfly that was mentioned? A metamorphosis?
yes for mine :icon_flower: Losing Life to gain it
muliti layered??
As Rosie mentioned, the flesh of Man is their WRATH which doesnt WORK the righteousness of GOD, the flesh of Men remains in Wrath ,and always WILL,while it remains IN the Flesh,
as we Know -His Fire \ Wrath Cleanses , and Makes Righteous
Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
good vision Card, Both worms are LIVING , althou one Dead to law and Darkened, the other alive to Life , both bearing WITNESS to the Truth,Great IS THE DAY of the MORN STAR rising , The DAY in WHICH WE " LIVE" :icon_flower: THROUGH DEATH COMES LIFE :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: twelve hours of DAY and of Night consist of ONE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ DAY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and a AWESOME DAY , HE IS
:cloud9: Thanks Taff......I see more now of what He was trying to show me with what you said here.........Blessings....
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Seems to me that "the worm" that "dieth not" is he that is still "dead in sin".
The son OF MAN, rather than the son OF GOD! :sigh:
like you said... man's carnal nature!
Not that it won't ever die... but until it DOES DIE, it suffers the wrath of God - as the wrath of God abides upon them that believe not.
"...Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." :gangel:
The worm MUST DIE!! :thumbsup: (but some are trying very hard NOT TOO! :winkgrin:)
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 12:47:32 AM
sorry CP this is a cand p ..made some months ago...Gehenna fire in particular may cause traditionalists to stumble ,and Im afraid that toooooooooo many dont see Christs words as SPIRIT and Life , But see in many places death and ET.
Then we have ,God is a Consuming FIRE , and terms such as Punishment ,destruction etc...they seem to concoct all this into ,the WICKED gets singed to a Cinder for ever and ever , while the Righteous Dwell in the Clouds ,forever immortal.
what gets destroyed as Going through the Flames is the carnal mind \heart,( soul)if you will, our thought Process ,
does that perish, well yes it does ,....our Minds are renewed,as is the soul which never dies.
what persihes is Carnality..to be carnal minded is DEATH
scripture speaks of those who SPEAK from the Grave(tombs) ,... that is those who dwell after law and remain DEAD in their sins,...it is this which needs to perish....
Just consider this verse and those which preceed by comparison...
Ive heard it mentioned that all sin begins in the Heart , so may I ask, what uses is cutting off your hands feet and plucking out your eye, dont you treat the Cause ? some say Hyperbole, I say no, Christ words are Spirit
Mar 9:42
the worm that dieth not, a C and P made to WW
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
Two types
A maggot and a Worm...
towla
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
What a beautiful picture!!! :thumbsup:
Quote
Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.
The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE
JUST TO ADD CP
I see hands , feet and the eye as works of the flesh\LAW,[ way of life] the eye [understanding] which needs to perish, better is the LIFE of KNOWING HIM than the shame of NOT
COOL!! VERY INTERESTING!!!! :icon_flower:
:cloud9: That IS cool, Taff! Somehow I missed that post today. :thumbsup: Glad to see you back posting some. So much life when all the streams are together flowing as one river! Blessings....
Mar 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell,55 to the unquenchable fire. 56
Mar 9:44 (TEXT OMITTED)
Mar 9:45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better to enter life lame than to have57 two feet and be thrown into hell.58
Mar 9:46 (TEXT OMITTED)
Mar 9:47 If your eye causes you to sin, tear it out!59 It is better to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have60 two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.
55 sn The word translated hell is "Gehenna" (γέεννα, geenna), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom ("Valley of Hinnom"). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer_7:31; Jer_19:5-6; Jer_32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. In the intertestamental period, it came to be used symbolically as the place of divine punishment (cf. 1 En. 27:2, 90:26; 4 Ezra 7:36). This Greek term also occurs in Mar_9:45; Mar_9:47.
56 tc Most later MSS have Mar_9:44 here and Mar_9:46 after Mar_9:45; "where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched" (identical with Mar_9:48). Verses Mar_9:44, and Mar_9:46 and are present in A D Θ Ë13 Ï lat syp,h, but lacking in important Alexandrian MSS and several others (א B C L W Δ Ψ 0274 Ë1 28 565 892 2427 pc co). This appears to be a scribal addition from Mar_9:48 and is almost certainly not an original part of the Greek text of Mark. The present translation follows NA27 in omitting the verse number, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.
Took out two worms!
Paul
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. mk9.43
OK, here I go with my wacky thoughts.........
If your hand offend you (old man/natural man) cut it off (put off the old man). Better to enter life with a weak, but pure, spiritual life than to enter (hell) trying to live a carnal/spiritual life where the worm (soul?) never dies and God never gives up.
It must be 'hell' to go one on one with God!
cp
Shucks Paul..if Id Only Known Bro .... :bigGrin: just kiddin :icon_king:
but surely the principle is the same?
Quote
If your hand offend you (old man/natural man) cut it off (put off the old man). Better to enter life with a weak, but pure, spiritual life than to enter (hell) trying to live a carnal/spiritual life where the worm (soul?) never dies and God never gives up.
Quote
theres the WORKS of HIS hands , through GRACE befitting to HIM and there are those which work the law..DEATH
the Hands relate always to that which WORK, the feet are OUR walk and eyes our UNDERSTANDING .again pertain to me of Law V Grace and Truth CP
Psa 135:15 The idols of the heathen [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands ,... maybe Tarnished GOLD?
By Two or three witnesses,,could that be ALSO ???? Law verses Grace..and that of the Tabernacle which speaks always of Three.???
so Tis BETTER to enter Life through Knowing OUR LORD than the the long way Home , to that of shame. :icon_flower:
Stick within the principles Scripture speaks of Cp..its always the same message...well for mine.
The worms and fire are the endless torment resulting from the continual heaping of dung and refuse.
In my opinion.
:cloud9: I agree Taff........it never ceases to amaze me how many myriads of myriads of ways He has managed to say the same things over and over and over again........Blessings....
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 05:57:47 AM
:cloud9: I agree Taff........it never ceases to amaze me how many myriads of myriads of ways He has managed to say the same things over and over and over again........Blessings....
AMEN sis AMEN. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:cloud9:
Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 05:59:35 AM
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
:icon_flower:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?
Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.
They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand than to use it to keep the fire burning.
Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 09:55:07 PM
Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?
Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.
First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness , :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 29, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand that to use it to keep the fire burning.
I really do believe that, for the Jew, it would be better to cut off the offending hand rather than risk the judgment of Gehenna and lose out on the glorious kingdom on earth. Don't you think that's a pretty good exchange? I'd probably have to wrench out both my eyes and cut off both my hands if I were under law. Thank God for grace!
Amen.
And thank you Father for the wisdom to no longer walk in the natural yearnings of our flesh.
To put the old man to death.
Not to crucify Christ over and over again.
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 09:55:07 PM
Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?
Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.
First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness , :icon_flower:
Don't you mean: First the soulish then the spiritual? First Adam (who is soulish) then the spiritual (one) which is Christ? :laughing7:
Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 10:38:40 PM
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 09:55:07 PM
Why can't the worms and fire of Gehenna be literal?
Just because Christ said His words were spirit does not mean He said they are figurative at all times.
First the natural then the spiritual , Yes T...I got No Problem ,both bearing witness...theres always the need of the witness , :icon_flower:
Don't you mean: First the soulish then the spiritual? First Adam (who is soulish) then the spiritual (one) which is Christ? :laughing7:
lol :icon_flower:
sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts :happy3:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 29, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
They were literal.
That's why Jesus used them in that parable.
It's better to cut of your hand than to use it to keep the fire burning.
I understand these as "saving knowledge teachings".
This one is know as "cause of the hand"...or what makes you hand sin (what causes you to sin).
Sin is an actual "action" or an "attempt" at transgression.
You don't sin in your mind literally.....the cause of the action of sinning starts in your mind.
As a man thinketh, so he does.
If you think long enough about adultery with a person, you will go out of your way evetually to put yourself in a position to committ the sin.
The cause of the hand that sins.
Your sins are forgiven, now don't intentionally sin anymore if you don't want the condemnation.
Remember sacrifices never really work (for those of you who believe in literal sacrifices / deity appeasement) with intentional wilful defiant sins (levitical sacrifices are only for sins of ignorance that become known).
So if you don't want the FIREY EXPECTATION, then don't intentionally transgress (control the cause of the hand).
See Num. 15:27-31 and NT commentary in Heb. 10:26;
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
Knowledge of truth = Gd love and forgives you...the Jesus Gospel
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 10:50:58 PM
sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts :happy3:
:icon_flower:
:cloud9: Aw, come on, Taff.......what's 1499 more among friends? :winkgrin: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 01:10:14 AM
Quote from: Taffy on September 29, 2009, 10:50:58 PM
sounds like we discussed this back AT Chritmas Time T man lol, for nigh on 1499 posts :happy3:
:icon_flower:
:cloud9: Aw, come on, Taff.......what's 1499 more among friends? :winkgrin: :laughing7:
Indeed Card LOL :happygrin: Twas a great thread :icon_flower:
Just a note for now. I'm so excited and in need of your (the gang here) calming advice and thoughts but I am on the run right now so will fill you in in a bit. I have spent literally about 3 days and nights wrestling with the Spirit about 'their' worm that doesn't die and the fire that isn't quenched and I really think I have come up with what Jesus is trying to communicate. It fits with all of Scripture that I can come up with so far and it is very freeing to me personally and I think it will be to any of us who hate sin.
Got to run. How's that for a cliff hanger!!!!! Being I am who I am probably not much of one but for those few of you who 'know' me maybe it is enough to keep you tuned in because again I value your critisisms and thoughts highly.
cp
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.mark9
First the natural then the spiritual. Some may disagree with these exact words but hopefully the 'spirit' of the message gets seen.
I think Jesus is saying that if we recognize sin in our lives we should cut it off. I think the saying 'where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched' is a saying like 'don't throw the baby out with the bath water'. There is a literal interpretation and much more hidden message. The reason I think it was a 'common' saying is that these words are found in the last words of Isaiah. Jesus uses them liberally, I think, because they were common to many people. These words were around for a long time!
Now, what do they mean and how can they free us from guilt and bondage?
If you are greedy and you realize it Jesus is saying to acknowledge that greed is wrong. This is cutting it off, cutting off the air supply in a sense, like choking the life out of a living thing. Even if we keep falling into the sin, as long as we are cutting off it's life force then we are cutting it off.
Now if we recognize an offense in our behavior and choose not to cut it off then this sin, which is the worm, will not die out but it will increase in strength and passion like a fire that can't be satisfied. It will become a worm that will not die and a passion that will not be quenched or satisfied.
Consider......this fits so well with all of Scripture and life. The rich man and Lazurus......The rich man went to 'hell' without cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye. What was his fate? I believe he continued, in his mind maybe, but somehow he continued in his sin to its natural conclusion. He was so into himself that this worm became a full fledged serpent, and the fire of his passion, his selfishness, led him to his end, much like the prodigal son. Look at him, he no longer demanded or expected that great cups of wine be brought to him. He humbly asked if he could have maybe a lick of someone's finger that was dipped in water! Just a lick. He was concerned about others and so on. He came to his end and what happened to the prodigal when he came to his end in the pig sty? He turned!
Now here is another thought I am working on. I noticed that Jesus is saying we must RECOGNIZE that which is offending us before we can cut it off or pluck it out. Did Hitler recognize that killing Jewish people was a sin and something to be cut out of his life? I don't think so. So Hitler will go to 'hell' where his worm (sin) will be allowed to run it's natural course, whether in his mind or whatever. What would be the natural course of such a worm that doesn't die and such a passion that is never satisfied? After killing all the Jews, he may want to kill African Americans, and then the crippled and then the old and then tall people and then people with red hair and so on and so on until he would be the only one left. I think he would meet his end some time during this horrible journey and he would turn.
And when he came to himself........... luke 15.17
All this fits in so well with what Jesus was saying before and after too. Let the little ones come to me. He is saying, IMO, to keep trying, even in little ways. If you can't beat the sin of over eating or lust or stealing, at least acknowledge it is very wrong and keep cutting it off as much as you can and never give up. Even the little victories, Jesus will acknowledge with great pride in us.
The salt He talks about after. Keep up with the salt. Don't give up. Keep salting your sins with His cleansing power. Salt is good. Salt will kill the worm and the passion for sin.
Jesus also said that those who are not against Him are for Him no matter how ignorant they may be. I think He may be encouraging us to keep cutting sin out of our lives as we recognize it, even though we may be but babes in 'knowing' Him.
Spiritually speaking, to me anyway, I see this as applying to myself and each person individually as well as to all humans corporately. There is sin (a worm, my worm) in me that I don't recognize as sin and, by God's grace and guidance, I will be shown these offending essences as I am able to deal with them. Until then, I am afraid to say, but until then I will follow my worm with passion that is like a fire that won't be quenched. On the other hand I know my worm has been dealt with and broken entirely because of Jesus Christ.
The hand and the foot and the eye that I do recognize as offensive I will always fight by God's grace. I may not win all the time but I really will win all the time if I keep fighting. The hand speaks to me of greed, while the eye speaks to me of lust while the foot conjures up in my mind how sometimes I quickly run into mischief.
Remember Jesus saying how anger leads to murder and how just looking at a woman in a wrong way is like adultery? Sinful thoughts and actions are our worms and the passion with which we pursue them is like a fire that cannot be quenched.
This is long but these words also make me reconsider what the lake of fire is. Maybe more on that later. I also am seeing all the words about torment and outer darkness and those who have a passion for the eternal torment doctrine, I am seeing these all in a new light.
cp
Their worm.
Jesus was using Gehenna to get His spiritual message across. I am told Gehenna was where a lot of bodies of 'bad guys' were thrown upon their death. I suppose as Jesus was conjuring up the image of Gehenna for those around Him, He spoke of the place in it's literal sense and spoke of the worms that moved in and out of the bodies of the men of sin or bad guys. So it was 'their' worm, the worm of the men of sin.
There are times, IMO, where Jesus used natural individual people statements to make His points and there are times when He summed up all people in Adam, singularized His statements.
Does anyone else see this?
cp
"Gehenna" (γέεννα, geenna), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom ("Valley of Hinnom"). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer_7:31; Jer_19:5-6; Jer_32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were cast and consumed by a constant fire.
We know dead flesh is consumed by maggots, (worms).
During the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D... Josephus claims that 1,100,000 people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish. 97,000 were captured and enslaved, including Simon Bar Giora and John of Gischala. Many fled to areas around the Mediterranean. Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, as there is "no merit in vanquishing people forsaken by their own God".
So what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies? Perhaps many of the people Jesus was warning about Gehenna fire and worms, literally had their body placed there!
During the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. I'm sure many of the Jewish religious leaders found themselves dead and in this very spot. There were hundreds of thousands of dead bodies that needed to be disposed of and Gehenna was one such a place already up and running! :dontknow:
Paul
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 04:13:07 PM
Does anyone else see this?
cp
Much moreso since I just read your previous post.
CP, that was excellent.
The whole thing. Lazarus... yes! I see that too. I always wondered why that part isn't discussed more in depth. (about him being humbled and learning, etc.) most people (ET people) think the rest of the story is that he is just in hellfire and going to stay there forever. So why is he learning? What a weirdo God would that be for someone to be in darkness on earth, then go to some hell where he can LEARN yet never get out of this prison of "hell" so that he can actually APPLY his learning? That would be a weirdo sick god. Which thankfully, doesn't exist.
What you mentioned about Hitler, man that is a similar scenario I have imagined too. Wow! This whole thing you wrote is striking such a chord in me, bro! Some of this stuff is thoughts that have been swirling around in my brain, too! About what the lake of fire may possibly be, and this stuff "following it's natural conclusion". Coming to the end of it, etc.
But the worm and fire and salt thing, that was awesome. I think you are dead on, bro!
Everything you said totally resonates with me.
Awesome revelation and you really just hit the nail on the head with all of it, as far as I'm concerned. wow. Sorry... if I seem like I keep going on and on, but a lot of stuff in my mind and heart just POW! became crystal clear. It's like it was a dusty piece of glass that I had wiped clean, but then you took out the bottle of windex and shined it all up and now it's REALLY clear.
Thanks bro!! I'm going to copy and save what you wrote. I want to reflect on it some more.
I'm so glad you posted this.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!
I think this is the 'spirit' of what Jesus is trying to tell us about what happens if we do not cut off the life supply of our sins.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. I see, in my minds eye, the Divine with a strangle hold on the 'devil'. I see the life slipping from this devil and I see it struggle in it's death throes. Jesus plucked out the right eye, not His, but the one in His Fathers 'Adam'.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!
I think this is the 'spirit' of what Jesus is trying to tell us about what happens if we do not cut off the life supply of our sins.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. I see, in my minds eye, the Divine with a strangle hold on the 'devil'. I see the life slipping from this devil and I see it struggle in it's death throes. Jesus plucked out the right eye, not His, but the one in His Fathers 'Adam'.
cp
Yeah... think of Adam and Eve in the garden of eden, (whether people see them as literal, symbolic whatever) and that tree of knowledge of good and evil....you can see how the serpent started out as a worm. How many times did they think about plucking the fruit off of that tree... the worm grew and grew the thought of plucking that fruit was relentless until it became a serpent and overpowered them in their minds. hmmm. Well just a thought.
QuoteJesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
That made me think of this:
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.He is our strength, for sure.
Quote from: sparrow on October 04, 2009, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 04:13:07 PM
Does anyone else see this?
cp
Much moreso since I just read your previous post.
CP, that was excellent.
The whole thing. Lazarus... yes! I see that too. I always wondered why that part isn't discussed more in depth. (about him being humbled and learning, etc.) most people (ET people) think the rest of the story is that he is just in hellfire and going to stay there forever. So why is he learning? What a weirdo God would that be for someone to be in darkness on earth, then go to some hell where he can LEARN yet never get out of this prison of "hell" so that he can actually APPLY his learning? That would be a weirdo sick god. Which thankfully, doesn't exist.
What you mentioned about Hitler, man that is a similar scenario I have imagined too. Wow! This whole thing you wrote is striking such a chord in me, bro! Some of this stuff is thoughts that have been swirling around in my brain, too! About what the lake of fire may possibly be, and this stuff "following it's natural conclusion". Coming to the end of it, etc.
But the worm and fire and salt thing, that was awesome. I think you are dead on, bro!
Everything you said totally resonates with me.
Awesome revelation and you really just hit the nail on the head with all of it, as far as I'm concerned. wow. Sorry... if I seem like I keep going on and on, but a lot of stuff in my mind and heart just POW! became crystal clear. It's like it was a dusty piece of glass that I had wiped clean, but then you took out the bottle of windex and shined it all up and now it's REALLY clear.
Thanks bro!! I'm going to copy and save what you wrote. I want to reflect on it some more.
I'm so glad you posted this.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks Sparrow but you know that many of my thoughts come from you and the others here on this forum. We are a family that I truly appreciate. Thanks for the very kind and encouraging words.
Now I do want to comment on something else now that you have encouraged me.
I see the popular view of eternal torment as a worm. I see it as one that does not die in many cases. I see this worm as a lie that some people grow to learn of and then carry for all their lives and die with it. For many it is a passion much like a fire that is not quenched. Look at the lengths some go to with this passion. They teach and believe that, when in Heaven, believers will look down on those suffering and find comfort! This is a worm that becomes so unquenchable that I believe it becomes a flat out serpent. The doctrine of eternal torment is a serpent (worm) that will never die, it will only grow and grow if left unchecked (plucked out or cut off).
I believe the lie of the eternal torment doctrine, if left unchecked and un-plucked and uncut, and left to run it's course in the hearts and minds of people will bring the people to their end, again, like the prodigal son. What did the prodigal son do when he came to his end? He turned. And for those who say people can't 'turn' in 'hell', I ask them what they liken the pig sty to that the prodigal son was in?
cp
Yes! Definitely!! The worm of eternal torment... it's so true. It truly does become a serpent if left to grow and it eats and destroys so much. So much passion some end up having for something so horrendous, it chokes out the love in a person's heart and blinds them. Only when it's cut off, cast aside, can that passion be turned around for good, and can grow into real love for others...
ET is like a wall pushing AGAINST a stream of love.
The walls eventually DAMN the stream into a pond. That just sits and festers and becomes slimy and of little effect, stagnant. The walls need to come down, for love to flow.
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!
That's not really proof claypot :laughing7:
I have zero proof myself but I'll write down my first thought after reading your post.
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Satan eats dust + People are dust = Satan feed on sin/shame/death
The dead bodies were returning to dust in that valley so Satan is present?
It was very shameful (for the family) to be dumped in that valley after death.
It that valley is also spiritual (I think it is because every verse, word and even letter in the Bible has at least two meanings) then being dumped in that valley for the Jews the fell in battle also is about sin. (worm, serpent, dust)
But where ther all bad people? If so then it almost looks like Sodom being wiped out. And that's not just a thought because it's stated the sins of Jerusalem are far gretaer than that of Sodom (but that could also be the present day Jerusalem)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!
That's not really proof claypot :laughing7:
I thought you might say that WW but, no respect intended I thought common sense might win the day. You are the most common sense person I know so I thought you would just see it.
Also I might ask "What is proof?"
cp
I might also add that Jesus talked about if you are angry with someone it is like murder. I see being angry as the worm while murder is the serpent. Things grow.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
Is that worm somehow (word origin perhaps) linked to the serpent?
Can't find any link myself, but perhaps someone else did/can?
WW, I am fully convinced that the worm if left to grow becomes the serpent, bigtime!
That's not really proof claypot :laughing7:
Also I might ask "What is proof?"
For example a verse that states that worms can grow huge as a snake.
I mean if there is no proven link besides our thought that a worm is a tiny snake then all discussions that follow that assumption never can be more than guesswork. => weakest link...
:cloud9: Snakes don't eat dead flesh, either, as worms do. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: claypot on October 04, 2009, 08:11:29 PM
I might also add that Jesus talked about if you are angry with someone it is like murder. I see being angry as the worm while murder is the serpent. Things grow.
cp
So if worm and serpent stand for gowth of sin does that tell us there was little sin among the Jews?
Perhaps to linear thinking but that is what I conclude from it sofar. And it somehow doesn't feel right.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 04, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
:cloud9: Snakes don't eat dead flesh, either, as worms do. My :2c: Blessings....
True. But dead flesh is turning to dust. And snakes/serpents eat dust...
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the
serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and
dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Plus someone living in sin has a dead spirit. A spirit turned to dust. And satan is feeding on that dust (dust=sin)
I do hear ya and you too Card and you have given me pause to think that maybe a worm is just a worm but the message of Jesus' words still seem to imply that a worm is as nasty as a serpent.
Do you see a worm as representing anything good?
I don't know about growth of sin as you say. Sin is sin. Now as to the form of sin, I suppose that can change.
cp
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 08:41:50 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 04, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
:cloud9: Snakes don't eat dead flesh, either, as worms do. My :2c: Blessings....
True. But dead flesh is turning to dust. And snakes/serpents eat dust...
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Plus someone living in sin has a dead spirit. A spirit turned to dust. And satan is feeding on that dust (dust=sin)
That's good WW.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on October 04, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
:cloud9: Snakes don't eat dead flesh, either, as worms do. My :2c: Blessings....
Continuing from the above.
Literal worms feed on literal dead meat.
Spiritual worms feed on spiritual dead meat.
Satan=serpent=snake=spiritual worm that feeds on sin/dust
Just brainstorming here...... :laughing7:
I think that if something helps you to understand God's plan, or the reason why we're here, or things that can help you on your path in pushing out darkness with light or what have you... I think that's kind of the main thing that matters. God can use anything and will use anything to help His children. The worm/serpent thing is an excellent illustration in my eyes. :happy3: I was greatly blessed by it. :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: Ok, just had to say that.
carry on. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Maybe one deals with the things of flesh and the other deals with the things of spirits? :dontknow: Just throwing things out there........dead, wormy, snakey things, but things, LOL...... :laughing7:
I agree Sparrow. I do think WW is on to something though.
Even though sin is sin, it does grow or change or whatever, into more and more darkness IF left unchecked. It is a fire in and of itself that will not be quenched. It is a worm that will not die if constantly fueled but withdraw the fuel and die it will IMO.
If your hand offend you cut it off because it is sheer hell to live with an offending hand and if left on it will infect the whole body. It will become an unquenchable fire.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2009, 12:31:16 AM
:cloud9: Maybe one deals with the things of flesh and the other deals with the things of spirits? :dontknow: Just throwing things out there........dead, wormy, snakey things, but things, LOL...... :laughing7:
Card, you always seem to get to the heart of the matter. I see what you are suggesting. Much to ponder. This worm (their worm) message that Jesus uttered really got hold of me. I've been thinking about it almost exclusively for about 4 or 5 days.
Thanks for your input.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2009, 12:31:16 AM
:cloud9: Maybe one deals with the things of flesh and the other deals with the things of spirits? :dontknow: Just throwing things out there........dead, wormy, snakey things, but things, LOL...... :laughing7:
The question is are those wormy things connected?
(http://www.blogcdn.com/xbox.joystiq.com/media/2009/05/worms-armageddonouttahere.jpg)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2009, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2009, 12:31:16 AM
:cloud9: Maybe one deals with the things of flesh and the other deals with the things of spirits? :dontknow: Just throwing things out there........dead, wormy, snakey things, but things, LOL...... :laughing7:
The question is are those wormy things connected?
(http://www.blogcdn.com/xbox.joystiq.com/media/2009/05/worms-armageddonouttahere.jpg)
As connected as flesh and spirit are I suppose. In one sense they are connected totally to make us, us but in another sense they are as separate as separate can be, don't you think?
cp
I would say: maybe
I'm looking for a scriptual connection.
You must go to the Spirit for that but I'm just playin with ya a bit. Let me think.
WW, are you asking how the spirit and flesh are connected? I think I'm kind of off track here.
I look at us humans and that is 'scripture' enough for me to know that the spirit and flesh are connected in ways I'll never understand and they are very disconnected in ways I may never understand fully.
I am intrigued by your thought process so could you please stay patient with me and ask your question again but be a bit more specific?
cp
Fear not, thou worm Jacob , [and] ye men of Israel....is41.14
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.rom9.13
WW, I really see Jacob as representing all that God loves, the divine, the spiritual. Yet God calls Jacob a worm.
6 But I [am] a worm , and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.ps22.6 (This is not Jacob but it is just for the point I am making.)
I don't see anything really good about the worm and that makes me think it represents the flesh and carnality.
These verses show me a connection between my physical, natural make-up and my spiritual.
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 06, 2009, 06:24:25 PM
You must go to the Spirit for that but I'm just playin with ya a bit.
Mine is a bit hard of hearing I think :winkgrin:
QuoteLet me think.
Don't hurt yourself! :laughing7:
QuoteWW, are you asking how the spirit and flesh are connected? I think I'm kind of off track here.
QuoteI am intrigued by your thought process so could you please stay patient with me and ask your question again but be a bit more specific?
I'm looking for a worm-serpent connection.
A verse that states there is a connection. Perhaps etymology of snake/worm words. Just something.
Both things being long isn't real proof you know.
Satan and HS are both spirits. But that doesn't mean one of them is a more mature form of the other.
Many say that the Gehanna story is just about the literal slaughter among jews.
Personally I think it is
also a parable. (Wasn't everything Jesus said in public a parable?)
That would mean the whole wormy story has spiritual side too.
For ETs it's being eaten alive by worms in hell.
For me it is :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
Whoa, now you got my imagination going, WW!!!
The HS and satan are spirits. Could satan be the HS without God? In other words, what or who is satan? Of course there are threads galore about that. I think satan is a spirit, an essence. IMO 'he' is the carnal mindset, the mind that is set against God. The HS is a spirit that is an essence totally in alignment with God. Like you say, both spirits. Is one a 'picture' of the spiritual life apart from God and the other is a 'picture' of the spiritual life with God?
A worm/serpent connection you are looking for. A Scripture that says "The worm and the serpent are the same thing, one is just more mature than the other." 2nd Hesitations 9:23
May I respectfully ask why you want a verse on this? What's going on in that blessedly twisted mind of yours!!!! I genuinely curious!
cp
Quote from: claypot on October 06, 2009, 09:26:41 PMCould satan be the HS without God?
That's kinda dangerous ground to thread on....
Darkness is the absense of light. Satan is the prince of darkness. But saying anything can get as good as the HS....
QuoteMay I respectfully ask why you want a verse on this? What's going on in that blessedly twisted mind of yours!!!! I genuinely curious
It's much more boring as you are hoping for I guess.
Suppose I post a thread stating that only people born in the summer goto hell. The rest is saved.
Would you like some verses as proof of will you accept that summer is hot so it means they goto hell.
I bet you will go for the verse option.
Same on the worm and snake connection. They are both long is not a real connection. A garden hose is also long. Does that mean it's the home of satan? :laughing7:
Right now we have anice theory. But it can only become a fact if it can be proved scriputally.
Agreed there is some logic in the assumption but a bit to weak imo.
Quote from: claypot on October 06, 2009, 09:26:41 PM
May I respectfully ask why you want a verse on this?
If I have a verse on that the next steps could be something like:
serpent=satan
man=dust=sin
serpent easts dust.
Flesh=sin
worm eats flesh/sin
Spirit is inside the flesh.
The worm and fire consume the flesh and set the spirit free.
That line of thought/brainstorming.
I also remember a thread that states that the dragon of Revelation is a fullgrown serpent from Genesis.
If that's true satan does grow. Must be that fattening dust diet :laughing7:
Then teh worm could fit in. But because teh worm is smaller than the snake I would expect it before the snake.
So no match :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 06, 2009, 06:52:00 PM
I'm looking for a worm-serpent connection.
A verse that states there is a connection. Perhaps etymology of snake/worm words. Just something.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=worm&searchmode=none (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=worm&searchmode=none)
worm
O.E. wurm, variant of wyrm "serpent, dragon,"
A word of caution, though: none of the original languages of the Bible are Germanic languages, and as far as I can tell, the Greek words for "worm" (
skolex) and "serpent" (
drakon) are unrelated. And I don't think it'd be very easy to claim that the Bible was written so that those speaking English could get more out of it than those speaking Greek. So this is probably, unfortunately, just a complete coincidence.