So, WHY Exactly Is Abortion SO Wrong?? The Absurdity of ET and Annihilation

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

[Zeek]

:cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

even if they are "set up" to disobey??  or do you see that there is no "set up"?

[WhiteWings]

Zeek.

IF

To me God could have His way if that was His desire. One more hit was all that was needed (just guessing)
But He didn't. He could have blocked recovery. Noone would have noticed. Even the doctors didn't have hope.
Perhaps this verse is your answer:

2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

[claypot]

Again I say.....God is 'thinking' and we are.

cp

[Zeek]

Zeek.

IF

To me God could have His way if that was His desire. One more hit was all that was needed (just guessing)
But He didn't. He could have blocked recovery. Noone would have noticed. Even the doctors didn't have hope.
Perhaps this verse is your answer:

2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

apparently with many, it is his desire.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of withheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosing "life and death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory.

:cloud9: Zeek, believe this or not, but about 3 years before it happened, the Lord gave me a dream in which I was in the very hospital they took him to afterwards initially, and saw a policeman (police took him to the hospital, not a unit) talking to a nurse. I was allowed to know only that something had happened to one or both of my sons, and that it was bad, maybe even to death.

I was at work asleep (worked for group home company in a 24/7 position) when I had this and I hit my face on the floor crying and begging for mercy for them. I had no idea if whatever it was, just happened, or was about to happen. I thought, maybe a car wreck? I had no idea. Anyway, plain as day, I heard, "Would you die for them?"

After a few seconds of reasoning whether or not He might mean that LITERALLY (as in my death being possibly the only thing to soften their hearts and bring repentance), I said, "Yes, Lord, I would." And I kept on praying. When it was light, I called them both and told them how much I loved them, my dream, God's love for them, and told them they needed to get themselves in line with God's perfect will for their lives.

He showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

My son was 21 and had just moved out, my daughter was only 16. And "die" I did. Sometimes I literally had to bite my tongue to keep from going into "parent" mode and ranting over things they did that they had been taught better of.

Anyway, nothing happened for over 3 years, and by then I had forgotten the dream/vision.

The 5th day after, when he was stable, my daughter and I left the hospital where he was lifelined to, to go home long enough to get clothes and let her pick up her paycheck and tell them she was not coming back to work for probably weeks, if not months. While she was in there, in my still-in-shock state of mind, I was asking God, "Why didn't You warn me so I could pray?"

And instantly, that dream came back to me. All I felt led to pray in the ER while he lay there in a coma, was to place my hands on his head and loose him into the perfect will of His Father, and then they wheeled him into emergency brain surgery.

What He showed me was, the unconditional love that had been poured on them from Him thru me, was the seed of Christ in them being watered, that was literally going to resurrect my son back from the dead.  

Now let me tell you how bad he was. He had 4 different type of brain damage. The neurosurgeon told us he only had a 20% chance of survival for the next 24 hours following IF he survived the surgery, but that he would be dead within 24 hours without it, for sure. And that IF he survived he would be a vegetable.

And as a sidenote; the generational curses? While I was sitting with him in neurocritical care, his blood pressure shot way up into stroke range and set off alarms. I started praying, watching one side of his body draw up, and the Lord spoke, "Stroke" to me and to my astonishment, told me this was a generation curse trying to find life. I only then remembered that my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and possibly my father (no autopsy) had all died from strokes.

This happened 3 times, and 3 times I rebuked it and commanded it to leave. Three times, his body straightened back out. He never had any residual paralysis as they expected, although he did have to go thru some physical therapy to regain correct motor control, for a few weeks. And he started out thinking he was Batman, and that he was nine, and this 6'3" young man was calling me "Mommy" like he was a little boy again. That in itself was a "death" for me; it broke my heart every time he said it.

He was in the rehab hospital by that point, where they send all the Indy 500 drivers if they crash and get badly injured. They all said he was a miracle as did the hospital where he was at. The whole place was talking about him; they said he was a miracle and the physicians all said they had never seen anyone recover so completely from such massive damage. He's probably 90-95% recovered today, with mostly odd little personality changes, that mostly only family would notice.

Now; having explained all this, only God knows what it will take to break our wills to get us to Him. I was a hard nut to crack, also, and I went thru a literal hell for Him to get me, complete with demons tormenting me for 13 days after seeing my best friend almost possessed by one. She and I went thru things that are unspeakable, but both of us, from day one have thanked Him for allowing judgment to have it's perfect work.

My son was the same way. He held no bitterness towards his attackers. I was humbled at this revealing of the Christ in him which was immediate, because I admit I was struggling for a season with not being able to pray for them wholeheartedly as he was. I came finally to the place in God where it was TRULY LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good, and I could pray for the "servants of High Priest that took Him to go to the cross".

This life in the flesh is not an easy walk. Terrible things happen. But we must believe that He has His eye on the end, otherwise a root of bitterness that it was said would raise up and defile many in the last days, will.

As for free will.......this debate always bothered me, because although He had made the fact He is sovereign life in me when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, a revelation that resulted in my total healing in a week's time, I could still see and hear the free will side, as well.

So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME. It was this. I was driving and He used this as an example of the two principles being in harmony. He showed me, me driving and making decisions on turns, ect. based on circumstances as it is in life, living in the realm of time, where we can't see the end from the beginning.

He showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

From our limited vantage point below in time, it APPEARS that we are making the choices, and we are. But what is not seen except thru the revelation of the Spirit, is what HE did to get us to arrive at that desired point. In this way, both viewpoints are reconciled. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

even if they are "set up" to disobey??  or do you see that there is no "set up"?

:cloud9: No, I do see a "set up". All you have to do is see how He hardened Pharoah's heart. We are all "set up" as lively/living stones that are to rub one another the "wrong way" until the flesh is removed to reveal Christ within.

I am ordained, and had the system not failed and they had kept 2 of the 4 attackers in jail more than one day (the others were never arrested to begin with), I had decided after some time that I would use my clergy status to go minister God's unconditional love to those that nearly killed my son. I don't know what happened to all of them since; two may be in prison for other crimes. The other two left town, maybe the State. Obviously, no one wants to talk about their whereabouts. Blessings....

[Zeek]

:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of withheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosing "life and death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory.

:cloud9: Zeek, believe this or not, but about 3 years before it happened, the Lord gave me a dream in which I was in the very hospital they took him to afterwards initially, and saw a policeman (police took him to the hospital, not a unit) talking to a nurse. I was allowed to know only that something had happened to one or both of my sons, and that it was bad, maybe even to death.

I was at work asleep (worked for group home company in a 24/7 position) when I had this and I hit my face on the floor crying and begging for mercy for them. I had no idea if whatever it was, just happened, or was about to happen. I thought, maybe a car wreck? I had no idea. Anyway, plain as day, I heard, "Would you die for them?"

After a few seconds of reasoning whether or not He might mean that LITERALLY, I said, "Yes, Lord, I would." And I kept on praying. When it was light, I called them both and told them how much I loved them, my dream, God's love for them, and told them they needed to get themselves in line with God's perfect will for their lives.

He showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

My son was 21 and had just moved out, my daughter was only 16. And "die" I did. Sometimes I literally had to bite my tongue to keep from going into "parent" mode and ranting over things they did that they had been taught better of.

Anyway, nothing happened for over 3 years, and by then I had forgotten the dream/vision.

The 5th day after, when he was stable, my daughter and I left the hospital where he was lifelined to, to go home long enough to get clothes and let her pick up her paycheck and tell them she was not coming back to work for probably weeks, if not months. While she was in there, in my still in shock state of mind, I was asking God why didn't you warn me so I could pray? And instantly, that dream came back to me. All I felt led to pray in the ER while he lay there in a coma, was the place my hands on his head and loose him into the perfect will of His Father, and then they wheeled him into emergency brain surgery.

What He showed me was, the unconditional love that had been poured on them from Him thru me, was the seed of Christ in them being watered, that was literally going to resurrect my son back from the dead.  

Now let me tell you how bad he was. He had 4 different type of brain damage. The neurosurgeon told us he only had a 20% chance of survival for the next 24 hours following IF he survived the surgery, but that he would be dead within 24 hours without it, for sure. And that IF he survived he would be a vegetable.

And as a sidenote; the generational curses? While I was sitting with him in neurocritical care, his blood pressure shot way up into stroke range and set off alarms. I started praying, watching one side of his body draw up, and the Lord spoke, "Stroke" to me and to my astonishment, told me this was a generation curse trying to find life. I only then remembered that my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and possibly my father (no autopsy) had all died from strokes.

This happened 3 times, and 3 times I rebuked it and commanded it to leave. Three times, his body straightened back out. He never had any residual paralysis as they expected, although he did have to go thru some physical therapy to regain correct motor control, for a few weeks. And he started out thinking he was Batman, and that he was nine, and this 6'3" young man was calling me "Mommy" like he was a little boy again. That in itself was a "death" for me; it broke my heart every time he said it.

He was in the rehab hospital by that point, where they send all the Indy 500 drivers if they crash and get badly injured. They all said he was a miracle as did the hospital where he was at. The whole place was talking about him; they said he was a miracle and the physicians all said they had never seen anyone recover so completely from such massive damage. He's probably 90-95% recovered today, with mostly odd little personality changes, that mostly only family would notice.

Now; having explained all this, only God knows what it will take to break our wills to get us to Him. I was a hard nut to crack, also, and I went thru a literal hell for Him to get me, complete with demons tormenting me for 13 days after seeing my best friend almost possessed by one. She and I went thru things that are unspeakable, but both of us, from day one have thanked Him for allowing judgment to have it's perfect work.

My son was the same way. He held no bitterness towards his attackers. I was humbled at this revealing of the Christ in him which was immediate, because I admit I was struggling for a season with not being able to pray for them wholeheartedly as he was. I came finally to the place in God where it was TRULY LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good, and I could pray for the "servants of High Priest that took Him to go to the cross".

This life in the flesh is not an easy walk. Terrible things happen. But we must believe that He has His eye on the end, otherwise a root of bitterness that it was said would raise up and defile many in the last days, will.

As for free will.......this debate always bothered me, because although He had made the fact He is sovereign life in me when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, a revelation that resulted in my total healing in a week's time, I could still see and hear the free will side, as well.

So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME. It was this. I was driving and used this as an example of the two principles being in harmony. He showed me, me driving and making decisions on turns, ect. based on circumstances as it is in life, living in the realm of time, where we can't see the end from the beginning.

He showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

From our limited vantage point below in time, it APPEARS that we are making the choices, and we are. But what is not seen except thru the revelation of the Spirit, is what HE did to get us to arrive at that desired point. In this way, both viewpoints are reconciled. Blessings....

Beautiful.  Thank you and abundant blessings to you.

[aspiring son]

Powerful,Cardinal. Thanx so much for sharing.

Grace and peace

[martincisneros]

1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All of you do know that this is done with water baptism the same way it was done in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira, right?  The water in the Old Testament was seen as the domain of Leviathan, i.e. Satan, and there is a type of water baptism where you deal with one of God's Jonahs.  The water in the Old Testament was viewed as the destruction of the flesh, Noah's flood being a prime example, the domain of death, so that we're buried with Him in baptism in Romans 6.  Genesis 1 talks about the Holy Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters, same as He did at Jesus' water baptism.

[Cardinal]

1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All of you do know that this is done with water baptism the same way it was done in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira, right?  The water in the Old Testament was seen as the domain of Leviathan, i.e. Satan, and there is a type of water baptism where you deal with one of God's Jonahs.  The water in the Old Testament was viewed as the destruction of the flesh, Noah's flood being a prime example, the domain of death, so that we're buried with Him in baptism in Romans 6.  Genesis 1 talks about the Holy Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters, same as He did at Jesus' water baptism.

:cloud9: Whoa! Those are some good points I had never connected all together before, Martin. Thanks for posting this. Going to have to meditate on these. :thumbsup: Blessings...

[Cardinal]

Beautiful.  Thank you and abundant blessings to you.

:cloud9: Thanks, but believe me when I say it was all Him. Abundant blessings to you, as well.  :girlheart:

[Molly]

He showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

Same thing happened to me, Card.  That was such a leap of faith for me, to let go and let Him 'take over' lol.  As you can imagine, I am a ferocious and passionate parent.  But, all that remains hidden in Him now.  And, He is better at it than I could ever hope to be in a million years [no surprise lol].

He showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

I know.  It's just amazing.  Although, sometimes I get the sense of angels tearing out their hair lol.  But, from my new perspective, I can just sit back and watch it and be amazed.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It was a leap of faith alright. He had to practically hog tie me to accomplish it. I went thru some persecution over it, from parents who thought I'd lost my mind.

I should add that my daughter, now 21, was broken and repented and got delivered of all she had taken on herself during that time period, in April of this year, and is back to seeking God.

She recognized the unconditional love for what it was, and I overheard her many times even in her rebellion stage, telling her friends different things about unconditional love. So much so, one time I heard her exclaim to a girlfriend, "OMG, I sound just like my Mom!" She thought it was funny and came and told me about it in person, LOL. God is faithful. Blessings....

[peacemaker]

So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME.

What a liberation, to respect and appreciate differences, not using them as weapons of prejudice but at the same time not being imprisoned by them!

peacemaker  :cloud9:

[Universalist Catholic]

- It wasn't baptised.

You just end up going to Infant Limbo, according to the Catholic Church years ago.  Luckily they got rid of that belief long ago.  Supposedly they were in deprivation from God, but did not have to endure the Pain of Senses.  Another church doctrine claiming that those souls in hell are "blessed" with physical torments to distract them from the pain of loss, which is absolutely no God.  Sounds a bit absurd, and nonsensical.  Now the Catholic Church teaches that unbaptised babies are entrusted to God.  Yet their dogma states that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.  Doesnt make much sense.  But thats not the worse.  One group of Sedevacantists, a religion that believes  that there has not been a valid Pope for a long time believe that there is absolutely no Salvation outside the Catholic Church, and unbaptized babies go to hell.  This theology was started by FR. Leonard Feeney.  But they believed that Satan loves abortions cause then he gets their souls.  Sounds like a pretty incompetent God.  Thank the lord these are lies.