Tentmaker Forum

Given the doctrines of ET and annihilation (Eternal Death) abortion is suddenly seen as the kindest thing a person can do for his or her child.

ET: abort your child and you get them a free pass to Heavenly bliss and a "get out of Hell free" card.

Annihilation: abort your child and you get them a free pass to Heavenly bliss and a "get out of annihilation in Hell free" card.

I mean, seriously, who could, given the circumstances, NOT abort their child??

However, given UR, suddenly everything changes. Considering Christ is the Savior of ALL men, there's no "getting out of Hell" cards and greater reason, I think, for NOT aborting your child.

Note: some people might say, why don't we abort them, even with a belief in UR, if it will buy them a quicker ticket into "Heaven"? But honestly, I'm not so sure aborted babies automatically "go" to "Heaven" from a UR perspective. It seems to me, for abortion to honestly be wrong, it cannot be so easy for a baby to be whisked away "into" Heaven. I mean, why should we not abort babies, if we can relieve them of this life, if they go straight to Heaven, even without any threat of Hell or annihilation?

My two theories, at least, the ones that sound reasonable: babies are reincarnated into another baby which is actually born into this world, or babies are "taught" in the "Heavenly realm" before being brought to be with God. (So abortion wouldn't be a "get into Heaven quick" card.) (Please don't be angry with any of these theories. After all, there just ideas.)

Besides the main point of this thread: mainly, the absurdity of calling abortion wrong given ET or annihilation doctrines, why do you think abortion is wrong (if you believe that, at least, certain abortions are wrong) given UR?

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KsfyiiY5kTxuSM:http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm248/lunamag/et.jpg)
- If the baby wasn't one of the elect it goes to hell; abortion or not.
- It wasn't baptised.
- It didn't worship Jesus.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3Le6N8ABIWqG6M:http://www.thaimokit.com/photo/VinylModel/Vinyl-Robocop-ED209.jpg)
- It wasn't baptised.
- It didn't worship Jesus.

QuoteNote: some people might say, why don't we abort them, even with a belief in UR, if it will buy them a quicker ticket into "Heaven"? But honestly, I'm not so sure aborted babies automatically "go" to "Heaven" from a UR perspective.

All knees shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord.
I wonder how an fetus/embryo is going to do that.

Quoteor babies are "taught" in the "Heavenly realm" before being brought to be with God.

That's what I've read in a NDE.
But with abortion we aren't really speaking about a baby. I'm not denying it's life because it is. I'm just saying that life has a long way to go to understand even one verse.

Quotewhy do you think abortion is wrong

I would be a liar if I wrote I'm really against abortion (bad bad me) but doesn't life belong to God? So abortion is like stealing life from God....?

Tim,

You might not want to call it ED which has been emblazoned on our poor minds via television as the letters that stand for Erectile Dysfunction.

Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.........

Anne

Dear Anne,
I did not make that connection; watch few television commercials; do not consider myself of "poor mind."

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 14, 2009, 01:42:15 AM
Dear Anne,
I did not make that connection; watch few television commercials; do not consider myself of "poor mind."

I don't watch much TV either - but my family does and the computer I use is in the family room where the T.V. is usually running.   Sometimes the blaring of the television with all the ads does wear on my mind, making it feel poor.  There must be hundreds of ads about ED!

anne

Please stop Anne.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 14, 2009, 02:06:35 AM
Please stop Anne.

Huh?

I have no idea what you are talking about.  But since you are in an apparent ill mood, I will refrain from posting in this thread again.

Anne

***Apologies to Tim that your thread was turned ugly.  Perhaps a moderator can clean up the mess.

Not in an ill mood at all.
The television commercial topic is ill.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on September 14, 2009, 01:34:41 AM
Tim,

You might not want to call it ED which has been emblazoned on our poor minds via television as the letters that stand for Erectile Dysfunction.

Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.........

Anne

xD There we go. I fixed the "ED" parts. Thanks for notifying me. I didn't think of it myself, even after posting it, but your post to me was a fair suggestion. lol

Tim

In truth, my original comment was  just  kind of a little bit of goofing off said with tongue in cheek.  I didn't know anyone would be upset by it.    When I see ET - I always remember that alien movie called ET - even though I know in certain company it stands for 'Eternal Torment', not 'Extra-Terrestrial'.

Once again, sorry for fouling up your discussion. 

As for the abortion question - I think abortion is sad, but not as evil as the right wing makes it out to be.  The same group of people who use abortion as a political battering ram turn right around and condone all manner of war and bombs and toting guns around.   It is painfully easy to become a hypocrite.  Had my mother aborted me, I'd not have known it.  And I'd not have been a living soul.  That's the way I look at it.   I'm not "pro" abortion, but I am pro- reality and I am for keeping political and religious hypocrites out of the wombs of adult women.

Anne

ABORTION IS MURDER, BLOODY-GRUESOME MURDER


JUST MY OPINION


Raggedy ANNE, YOU MAY HAVE YOURS.

"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 14, 2009, 06:28:12 AM
"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

Dude, the thoughts contained in that verse are creepy. Sounds like something from a horror film.

 :cloud9: I've shared this before but I was caught up by the Spirit in my sleep once, to "awaken" in the heavens, in the stars. I saw round orbs of light coming down with faces on them, from the heavenly realm. I was given to understand they were souls being sent to inhabit bodies that were being prepared for them. They were aware, and had joy, which I got from "hearing" their communications via the Spirit.

The scriptures say He formed us in our mother's womb. What He is forming is literally a vessel to dwell in. It's no different, in one respect, than Churchianity's doctrine of the best God has for any of us, is to die and go to "heaven", which ALSO robs Him of a vessel to dwell in. Both come short of the glory, which is CHRIST IN US, not Christ "up there" somewhere, and both have at their root, a murdering spirit.

But; the bottom line is, if they are not alive, then why do they have to kill them? Blessings....

Quote from: Tim B on September 14, 2009, 06:31:26 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 14, 2009, 06:28:12 AM
"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

Dude, the thoughts contained in that verse are creepy. Sounds like something from a horror film.

:cloud9: Yeah, it is. The life is in the blood, ie. the life of unredeemed man is his soul. So his blood, his soul was crying out from the ground. Adam was a living soul. Blessings....

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST:
The Blood That Speaks of Better Things

Hebrews - Chapter 12

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.  25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

Been a whole lotta blood crying out from the ground since the American military machine has been murdering people by the millions too.   I sure am glad that our God is going to have mercy on us all, otherwise, we'd be up a creek without a paddle. 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isaiah 64: 6

Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2009, 06:35:52 AM
:cloud9: I've shared this before but I was caught up by the Spirit in my sleep once, to "awaken" in the heavens, in the stars. I saw round orbs of light coming down with faces on them, from the heavenly realm. I was given to understand they were souls being sent to inhabit bodies that were being prepared for them. They were aware, and had joy, which I got from "hearing" their communications via the Spirit.

The scriptures say He formed us in our mother's womb. What He is forming is literally a vessel to dwell in. It's no different, in one respect, than Churchianity's doctrine of the best God has for any of us, is to die and go to "heaven", which ALSO robs Him of a vessel to dwell in. Both come short of the glory, which is CHRIST IN US, not Christ "up there" somewhere, and both have at their root, a murdering spirit.

But; the bottom line is, if they are not alive, then why do they have to kill them? Blessings....

Nice! I like that story about the vision you had.  :bigGrin:

Churchianity seems to rob this world of a lot of things: one of them including hope. Atheism might be completely void of any hope, but the belief system of Churchianity is even less appealing (from an ET perspective): where you get the few happy saints in Heaven and the billions and billions forever damned to endless torment in Hell. It seems completely surrounded by so much pain, misery and death, as can be seen by the "Fruits of Hell" page that's located on Tentmaker. Is it not ironic that the very message Churchianity announces to the world, instead of bringing (very much) hope or peace, really makes things such as abortion more appealing? (As I stated in the OP.)

Part of mankind's problem, like you said, is looking for Christ somewhere, when he's really in US and in the HERE and NOW. Also, I think, followers of Jesus should focus more on LOVE rather than the (in perspective) tininess of sin.  :boyheart:

The points in the original post are very good ones.  I was the stereotypical fundamentalist right winger until a couple of years ago when I learned of UR.

The irony of being opposed to abortion while also believing in ET and that all babies go to heaven was inescapable.  Instinctively I knew abortion to be wrong, but the "greater good" would result from abortion if you assume 95%+ of all people go to hell forever as many fundamentalists (the ones I know anyway) do.  It seemed to me that abortion, not to mention all the miscarriages, was much more effective at winning souls than proclaiming the gospel.  Very ironic indeed.

Over the last two years since believing UR my views on abortion have been reinforced while my views on war have been changing.

I do find it easier to understand opposing views than I used to.

Thanks for the good points.

Although I personally don't mind the doctrine of annihilation, as this IMO opinion would be my own personal preference, I'd rather cease to exist rather than live forever anyway, if I had been granted the opportunity I'd have chosen to never have come into existence in the first place  :HeartThrob:

Taking the logic of the hardcore fundamentalist ETers that claim it true love that God forces a persons to come into existence and has the misfortune of living past the age of accountability, they say something like "God loves you so much that he has given you a free will, so that you can choose where you want to spend eternity, if you decide you don't want to spend it with him, he is so loving he will honour your decision." which is being tortured in an eternal torture pit, just for having the misfortune of being born, something you had no say in


OH REALLY

I've got an even better one

If God really, really loved you, he would have never created you in the first place, he would have honoured your decision for non-existence if you could so choose, now THATS REAL LOVE  :HeartThrob:

I will never become a mother and have no regrets, as unlike many I grasped exactly what the preachers/teachers were getting at with their doctrines, I wasn't prepared to take a chance if there was the remotest chance a child of mine could end up in ET, I only wish my own parent had heeded the preachers message as well, as I've been a disappointment to them anyway

The total irony of this all is...even although I'm not dear to my parents...they wouldn't dream of torturing me forever even if it lay in their power to be able to do so....I know this as fact

Yet christendom claims an all loving God had the sole intention of creating people, just so his wrath could be shown to show his glory, then wonders why people cannot embrace and love such a God

I suppose it's because they think it doesn't apply to them, it's fine when it applies to someone else, yet they are selfish enough to procreate, not caring whether the child they are bringing into the world may be an object of their loving God's wrath, they will still go ahead anyway

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on September 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM
Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

QuoteMy main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know

I think you might be able to see Him.  Those little kittens that you have dressed up with bells and buttons and bows to celebrate them--He made them for you, because he knew the pleasure they would bring you, and because he loves you and created it all for you [his Christ].  It's just a matter of believing what you know to be true. 


19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

--Gen 2

I think most believers in annihilation believe in conditional immortality and that an aborted child had no soul yet.

so if you abort a child, it will never life in any case, if it would be born, there is at least the chance to get saved and it would at least live it's normal life.

I don't think that "conditional immortalists" believe the souls of babies go to heaven, so it makes sense for me from an annihilationist point of view to reject abortion.

Quote from: sven on September 15, 2009, 02:36:12 PMso if you abort a child, it will never life in any case

Depends on when you call something "alive" and "child"
I've seen opinion ranging from several minutes to several weeks.

 :cloud9: I personally think God made the determination on when "it's" a child by saying, "I formed you in your mother's womb." Blessings....

(http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1466/1466797nnvj39znqt.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

Quote from: Shadow on September 15, 2009, 01:26:14 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on September 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM
Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 06:47:49 AM

Quote from: Shadow on September 15, 2009, 01:26:14 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on September 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM
Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 06:47:49 AM

Quote from: Shadow on September 15, 2009, 01:26:14 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on September 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM
Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

I know the feeling. I have trouble, often times, even reading the Gospels, and/or the Bible without feeling condemned. It's pretty ridiculous. I'm getting to the point that I'm really starting to believe this: UNLESS God is SO in CONTROL and SO LOVING that I can literally not worry about ANYTHING, or about ANYTHING concerning the fate of myself or others, THEN, and ONLY THEN, can I rest. So that's what I've been focusing on: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Without that, I believe we're all truly screwed anyway. lol

For me, it's now: ALL (God is LOVE and will reconcile ALL) or NOTHING (atheism is true). I can't go back to Christian orthodoxy, and UR seems to make the ONLY sense. That or everything is meaningless anyway, so it doesn't matter what happens. (But I don't really tend to believe this. I find God in too many things, like beauty and nature, to really say he doesn't exist.)

Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

Some people think that "literal" events could have been parables, I think. Maybe some of the stories in the Old Testament didn't actually happen. I don't know. I definitely see your point, I just don't feel like I have a good answer. Maybe it's not so much that God would have done such a thing SO that we can learn a "spiritual lesson," as it is we CAN learn a "spiritual lesson." That is God didn't do it SO, but as a consequence of these events, we can, naturally, learn from them.

I donno. One of those hard questions. I mean, we could ask: why did God allow any of this (pain, suffering, and evil) to exist? I don't really have an answer for that, but I do have a hope: He WILL rescue us from it. Otherwise, if we aren't ALL rescued, I really don't see any chance for an actual purpose to exist behind mankind's existence.

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

I'm probably going to get flak for this, but to be completely honest I actually have an immense amount of trouble in reading the Old Testament and trying to tell myself that the events described therein are completely historical events that all literally happened as described.  There are a lot of things that, to me, don't even internally make sense when taken literally, such as:

1. Jesus is supposed to be the unique historical incarnation of God on Earth, yet God is described as walking in the Garden of Eden as if he were human in Genesis 3:8.  He is additionally depicted as not being omniscient, as he asked Adam where he was (Genesis 3:9) and who deceived him (Genesis 3:11).  This continues even after Adam and Eve are evicted, when he asks Abel where his brother is (Genesis 4:9).  And then after that nothing is ever heard of this human-like incarnation of God.

2. When God decides to flood the Earth, he does so because humanity's wickedness was great (Genesis 6:5) and he regretted creating humanity (Genesis 6:6) - then, after the flood subsides, rather than cleansing humanity's wickedness, he accepts its existence (Genesis 8:21), making it seem as though God changed his mind.

3. God is described as a jealous God (Exodus 34:14), yet he is also described as love (1 John 4:8), and love is said not to be jealous (1 Corinthians 13:4).

There are others, but I think you get the idea.

This isn't to say that I think the Old Testament is false.  I just don't think that it's intended to provide us with a literal historical account from cover to cover.  Jesus was not exactly averse to using parables to get across his message, and I think the same is true here.  The message that we may take away from it is what is important, not the events described therein.

Would be interested to hear the view from one who does take it to be an entirely literal historical account, though.  This is one of the areas on which I have an ample amount of uncertainty.

I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 08:33:04 AM
I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

and not only old testament, but what about 70 ad.  Literal pregnant women were cut open, babies pulled out and eaten; girls raped.  millions of people burned to death.  And this was the doings of God??  The wrath OF GOD.  

If the literal is the truth, it's sick.

If the spiritual is the truth, but made known from literal events; then it's still sick.

I don't get it.  



I'll just go with what u r saying, LOVE is it.  If I can't see it in the bible, then I'll go with my heart.  

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 08:33:04 AM
I totally get what you're saying, Gab. I think too, that often times, the Old Testament picture of God, seems to be written by people as they perceive God's actions. Plus, they didn't exactly have as many words as us. The Hebrews didn't have words such as "like" when talking about emotion. It wasn't such as our language where we can say, "I hate him; I like him; I love him." It was more of polar opposites, or hyperbole. But in either case, for somebody, in the Old Testament, to say that God "hates" somebody probably shouldn't be taken literally (especially, considering he is LOVE, so he can't possibly "hate" someone in our sense of vengeful hate). I think too, that the idea that God is "a jealous God", just means he desires, above all else, for us to desire HIM (perhaps, and if only, for OUR well being), as opposed to worshiping false images (which can be/is damaging to our well being). I'm not sure it can be taken as our general definition of jealousy. (Besides, is ALL jealousy truly wrong? I don't think so. A limited amount of jealousy can be a good thing.)

I know what you're saying there regarding jealousy, but I'm just pointing out what seems to be a complete contradiction in terms if one takes the statement in Exodus to be literally true: God is said to be jealous, yet he is also said to be love, and love is said in no uncertain terms not to be jealous, full stop.  The Greek word for "jealous" in the Septuagint is the same word as found in 1 Corinthians 13, too, so we can be reasonably sure that the two senses of jealousy are identical.

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 08:33:04 AM
Also, I think when God asks questions, it's not that he doesn't actually know the answer, but he does it much like this: a father walks into his room and sees his child stealing candy from the cabinet, and asks, "What are you doing?" Not because he can't see what his child is doing, but because he desires to hear his child confess his actions.

Yeah, I've thought about that as well, but God doesn't just ask one question, but three: where he was, who told him he was naked, and whether or not he ate from the tree.  It seems a bit overboard if we are to take his questions as purely rhetorical in nature - rather, he seems to be depicted as genuinely curious.

At any rate, the stuff I listed was just what I saw as the internal contradictions if one takes it literally.  There are other things that are more along the lines of what Zeek is talking about that I have great difficulty reconciling, such as the killing of all the firstborn Egyptian children in punishment for something someone else did.  I just can't find a way to look at that as something that literally happened and yet find a way to maintain the stance that God is a loving God.  Maybe I'm missing something; I don't know.

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 08:45:18 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 08:58:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 08:45:18 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

i hear you, it's just that there were literal beautiful,wonderful people who were basically killed by god.  it wasn't just a hardening of the mind that bothers me, it's the literal massacre that follows.  it's just screwy thinking when i KNOW true love, all i have to do is look at my three kids.  I would never subject them to rape, torture, cutting, etc. in order to save them. 

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 08:45:18 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

Truly, many have implied, claiming to be a representative of the living Spirit. But all who preach (speaking or writing) are/were not doing it, explicitly for Him.

Indeed, many are blinded by the god of this world (i.e. man).

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 09:16:57 AM

Quote from: Tim B on September 20, 2009, 08:58:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 08:45:18 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

I think he does this for two reasons: to cause others to believe (such as God blinded the Jews to bring in the Gentiles) and so to cause the one who believes the lie to get so deep down in the trenches that it causes him to realize the truth.

Pauls says: God made the Jews stubborn to bring in the Gentiles, and once the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in, then the Jews would come back to God and ALL Israel would be saved. I think it's just a part of God's plan to save all mankind. Does it make sense, to me, for God to do it this way? Not in one sense, but it's better than him purposely damning certain human beings or not caring enough to save them.

i hear you, it's just that there were literal beautiful,wonderful people who were basically killed by god.  it wasn't just a hardening of the mind that bothers me, it's the literal massacre that follows.  it's just screwy thinking when i KNOW true love, all i have to do is look at my three kids.  I would never subject them to rape, torture, cutting, etc. in order to save them. 

There's other theories out there, ya know, concerning God and the reasons for why certain people go through what they do in this life. Ever look into Origen's idea on the pre-existence of souls, and the transmigration of souls? It's probably not the answer (after all, what is?), but it's interesting at the very least.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.v.iii.ix.html (note: I'm not sure if this has to with what is considered the "transmigration of souls" or not, but I think it might be. Either way: it does discuss the same topic as ours, basically, why certain people go through certain things, or why God has it happen).

And I also can see where you're coming from, btw. I'm not ignoring that. I don't have the answers. But I generally enjoy speculation.

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 09:29:02 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 08:45:18 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on September 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
Yeah, but why did God have to go through such drastic means to show us his love??  Why did he orhestrate killings of babies, mothers, have generations punished for sins of earlier generations; destroy the temple and innocent children etc?  Why?  after all he LOVES us, always  has; always will.   

For those here who take all the literal events that happened in the bible story as having spiritual applications, it still doesn't seem right that literal people, were put through such drastic horrible Hitler type killings by God in order to teach and show a spiritual application.  ??

The God of this world?

As true "love never fails."

But other verses imply it's the true GOD, that brings this wrath, and blinds eyes so one can't see the truth, and brings strong delusion so they believe a lie. 

Truly, many have implied, claiming to be a representative of the living Spirit. But all who preach (speaking or writing) are/were not doing it, explicitly for Him.

Indeed, many are blinded by the god of this world (i.e. man).

"Our level of understanding and comprehension is based on spiritual insight; apprehending the true nature of a thing."

peacemaker

 :cloud9: This has come up several times before, and personally I don't see why it is considered to be any less a God of love over the things of the OT, than the NT. Paul walked in love and he told some at one point to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of their FLESH, that their spirit might be saved.

1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways. So the first error IMO is to assume that His judgments to the flesh are the same as carnal man's murderous intents, for it says His judgments are unto victory, which the above scripture declares, for victory is in Christ, and it makes it plain that Christ is their destination.

The flesh is temporary and withers like grass anyway, so while it may APPEAR to be lack of caring and love, when I see in there the wicked perish, I see Him destroying flesh that profits a man nothing if it causes him to lose his own soul thru the gain of the worldly lusts, that the spirit might be saved.

When I see the innocent perish, I see a body thou hast prepared for Me, made conformable to His death, a sacrifice for their fellow man, a seed planted in love, blameless to the coming of the Lord.

That doesn't make it "right" or that the righteous among us should not try to stop the wickedness in the world by reproving it with righteousness, as in the case of abortions or whatever, only that some things will be outside of our ability to change them and that we are to take comfort in this hope.

So; if He was able to save them thru the destruction of wicked flesh, how much more and how many more hearts can He turn via breaking, thru the destruction of the innocent? The only equity to be found is not in this life, but in the life to come, where ALL bow the knee to the One who loved us before we loved Him, whether that happened in this life or the life to come.

Ask any of them then if it mattered which of the two circumstances they left this life and they will not reply that it did, for all the tears of the sorrows of this life have already been wiped away, because it be like it all happened to someone else, not them. And indeed, it did. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 04:33:05 PM

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways.

but we have the MIND OF CHRIST


but yet, I don't feel comfortable with raping, killing and destroying flesh; like apparently Paul did by turning one over to the adversary. 

do you??

apparently love lays down it's life for another but also orchestrates murder, rape, beating, etc of another too, and calls it love; so that in the end it's "all good".

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 04:43:40 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 04:33:05 PM

Our ways are not God's ways, His ways are much higher than our ways.

but we have the MIND OF CHRIST


but yet, I don't feel comfortable with raping, killing and destroying flesh; like apparently Paul did by turning one over to the adversary. 

do you??

I totally hear ya Zeek. I ask myself all the time why it takes creating something that tortures and rapes and does all sorts of unthinkably nasty things, why it takes this kind of creation to make something good. It is mind boggling to be sure.

Turning people over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Why make a creation that needs this type of curing? It seems insane on the creators part.

I find some understanding in the fact that God, for reasons really known only to Him, is really doing something totally mysterious to Himself. To Himself. We are, again in some mysterious way, His thoughts, His 'mind' at work.

Jesus Christ is the great 'What if?' of God. I had this thought the other day while driving home from work. Where it came from I have no clue and dismissed it right away as absurd but it stuck with me.

I had this strong feeling or whatever that God was entertaining thoughts about evil. He was, in effect thinking, 'What if I lost control?' 'What if I could succumb to evil?' 'What would it feel like?' 'What would need to happen to me if I let this happen?' 'I would need to die and come alive again.' 'I would need to be my own savior.' 'If I let such a dangerous and horrible thing happen, I would need to have a salvation and redemptive plan in place before I started anything else.' (Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world.)

These were my thoughts.

cp

 :cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you as a parent, set up boundaries such as telling your son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time. Blessings....

but these bad decisions are because of God are they not??  God hardened, Jesus spoke in parable so they wouldn't perceive the truth and be converted, God sent strong delusion so they would believe a lie.  God made two vessels.   Doesn't sound like a boundary there??? 

 

See, here is my thinking.  One of my friends here at TM would likely respond to me, "it's all spiritual", it refers to the murder of our "tares" within, and the "life of the wheat" within.  The "old cov" man has to be destroyed (murdered, raped, etc) in order for the new to live.   

I say great; i see that; and that makes total sense.  But that doesn't exclude that literal orchestrated events by God that appear to me to be totally against LOVE happen.   


Then you come back with the literal flesh has to be destroyed, as in 'human life", and I don't understand it.  I still hold that the "flesh" is a mindset; not literal humans. 

but anyway; I don't buy it.  God ordering his human army to go in and wipe out others, God punishing 4 generations for sins committed prior, God sending in the Romans to wipe out the Jews ad the temple;


I sure as heck don't set boundaries for my beautiful kids that result in torture, murder, etc.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of witheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosign "life ad death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory. 

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
:cloud9: And did you read these?


And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

Cardinal, i hope this isn't too personal,

if your son had died,

do you think then he would have received what was his "lot" or portion because he tempted Christ in the wilderness??  and because he was drawn away from Christ by his own lusts??  and so therefore God destroyed him through "evil"??


Would you be praising God for this beautiful orchestrated evil/grace; knowing it was because of your son's disobedience that he received this evil??

 :cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:38:56 PM
:cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

even if they are "set up" to disobey??  or do you see that there is no "set up"?

Zeek.

IF

To me God could have His way if that was His desire. One more hit was all that was needed (just guessing)
But He didn't. He could have blocked recovery. Noone would have noticed. Even the doctors didn't have hope.
Perhaps this verse is your answer:

2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Again I say.....God is 'thinking' and we are.

cp

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2009, 05:42:03 PM
Zeek.

IF

To me God could have His way if that was His desire. One more hit was all that was needed (just guessing)
But He didn't. He could have blocked recovery. Noone would have noticed. Even the doctors didn't have hope.
Perhaps this verse is your answer:

2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

apparently with many, it is his desire.

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 05:26:01 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of withheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosing "life and death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory.

:cloud9: Zeek, believe this or not, but about 3 years before it happened, the Lord gave me a dream in which I was in the very hospital they took him to afterwards initially, and saw a policeman (police took him to the hospital, not a unit) talking to a nurse. I was allowed to know only that something had happened to one or both of my sons, and that it was bad, maybe even to death.

I was at work asleep (worked for group home company in a 24/7 position) when I had this and I hit my face on the floor crying and begging for mercy for them. I had no idea if whatever it was, just happened, or was about to happen. I thought, maybe a car wreck? I had no idea. Anyway, plain as day, I heard, "Would you die for them?"

After a few seconds of reasoning whether or not He might mean that LITERALLY (as in my death being possibly the only thing to soften their hearts and bring repentance), I said, "Yes, Lord, I would." And I kept on praying. When it was light, I called them both and told them how much I loved them, my dream, God's love for them, and told them they needed to get themselves in line with God's perfect will for their lives.

He showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

My son was 21 and had just moved out, my daughter was only 16. And "die" I did. Sometimes I literally had to bite my tongue to keep from going into "parent" mode and ranting over things they did that they had been taught better of.

Anyway, nothing happened for over 3 years, and by then I had forgotten the dream/vision.

The 5th day after, when he was stable, my daughter and I left the hospital where he was lifelined to, to go home long enough to get clothes and let her pick up her paycheck and tell them she was not coming back to work for probably weeks, if not months. While she was in there, in my still-in-shock state of mind, I was asking God, "Why didn't You warn me so I could pray?"

And instantly, that dream came back to me. All I felt led to pray in the ER while he lay there in a coma, was to place my hands on his head and loose him into the perfect will of His Father, and then they wheeled him into emergency brain surgery.

What He showed me was, the unconditional love that had been poured on them from Him thru me, was the seed of Christ in them being watered, that was literally going to resurrect my son back from the dead.  

Now let me tell you how bad he was. He had 4 different type of brain damage. The neurosurgeon told us he only had a 20% chance of survival for the next 24 hours following IF he survived the surgery, but that he would be dead within 24 hours without it, for sure. And that IF he survived he would be a vegetable.

And as a sidenote; the generational curses? While I was sitting with him in neurocritical care, his blood pressure shot way up into stroke range and set off alarms. I started praying, watching one side of his body draw up, and the Lord spoke, "Stroke" to me and to my astonishment, told me this was a generation curse trying to find life. I only then remembered that my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and possibly my father (no autopsy) had all died from strokes.

This happened 3 times, and 3 times I rebuked it and commanded it to leave. Three times, his body straightened back out. He never had any residual paralysis as they expected, although he did have to go thru some physical therapy to regain correct motor control, for a few weeks. And he started out thinking he was Batman, and that he was nine, and this 6'3" young man was calling me "Mommy" like he was a little boy again. That in itself was a "death" for me; it broke my heart every time he said it.

He was in the rehab hospital by that point, where they send all the Indy 500 drivers if they crash and get badly injured. They all said he was a miracle as did the hospital where he was at. The whole place was talking about him; they said he was a miracle and the physicians all said they had never seen anyone recover so completely from such massive damage. He's probably 90-95% recovered today, with mostly odd little personality changes, that mostly only family would notice.

Now; having explained all this, only God knows what it will take to break our wills to get us to Him. I was a hard nut to crack, also, and I went thru a literal hell for Him to get me, complete with demons tormenting me for 13 days after seeing my best friend almost possessed by one. She and I went thru things that are unspeakable, but both of us, from day one have thanked Him for allowing judgment to have it's perfect work.

My son was the same way. He held no bitterness towards his attackers. I was humbled at this revealing of the Christ in him which was immediate, because I admit I was struggling for a season with not being able to pray for them wholeheartedly as he was. I came finally to the place in God where it was TRULY LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good, and I could pray for the "servants of High Priest that took Him to go to the cross".

This life in the flesh is not an easy walk. Terrible things happen. But we must believe that He has His eye on the end, otherwise a root of bitterness that it was said would raise up and defile many in the last days, will.

As for free will.......this debate always bothered me, because although He had made the fact He is sovereign life in me when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, a revelation that resulted in my total healing in a week's time, I could still see and hear the free will side, as well.

So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME. It was this. I was driving and He used this as an example of the two principles being in harmony. He showed me, me driving and making decisions on turns, ect. based on circumstances as it is in life, living in the realm of time, where we can't see the end from the beginning.

He showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

From our limited vantage point below in time, it APPEARS that we are making the choices, and we are. But what is not seen except thru the revelation of the Spirit, is what HE did to get us to arrive at that desired point. In this way, both viewpoints are reconciled. Blessings....

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 05:41:51 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:38:56 PM
:cloud9: This is the way I see it: like it or not, the potter set laws into effect that have repercussions for obedience or disobedience, and He created the waster to destroy. The enemy of our souls cometh not but to kill, steal, and destroy.

We can accept that the potter set these immutable laws into effect, including the adversary, by the indisputable counsel and supreme wisdom of His sovereign will which is rooted in a love with an eye on the end, that we as finite beings cannot fully comprehend, or not. That to me, is what it finally boils down to.

As for the 4 generations being punished, having been placed in a deliverance minister mode for the first 3 years of my walk, I have absolutely no doubt that He did indeed incorporate that law into being over the flesh of men. The reason we see things of the flesh passed down thru families is because we are seeing that law in effect. We are not just pressing into Him for ourselves, but for our generations before us, and after us to be set free of the things that had/have them bound.  

Jacob, our flesh, which means supplanter or heel catcher, has a nature of wanting to usurp, hinder from ascending, and overthrow the authority of the Spirit. Deuteronomy 28 outlines God's word to the flesh regarding blessings and cursings.Blessings....

even if they are "set up" to disobey??  or do you see that there is no "set up"?

:cloud9: No, I do see a "set up". All you have to do is see how He hardened Pharoah's heart. We are all "set up" as lively/living stones that are to rub one another the "wrong way" until the flesh is removed to reveal Christ within.

I am ordained, and had the system not failed and they had kept 2 of the 4 attackers in jail more than one day (the others were never arrested to begin with), I had decided after some time that I would use my clergy status to go minister God's unconditional love to those that nearly killed my son. I don't know what happened to all of them since; two may be in prison for other crimes. The other two left town, maybe the State. Obviously, no one wants to talk about their whereabouts. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 06:39:35 PM

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 05:26:01 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 05:05:22 PM
:cloud9: And did you read these?

1Co 10:9 - Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who did they tempt in the wilderness before being destroyed of serpents? Was it the "evil" OT God? So do we have the mind of Christ in this, or no?

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

What drew them away to bring about their death?

If you see a parent, set up boundaries such as telling their son not to drive drunk or he may die in a wreck, and he does it anyway and dies, do you then blame the parent who set up the boundary, or the child who ignored the boundary being led away of their own lust?

Or do you praise the parent for preparing things that they might inherit life eternal regardless of their bad decisions? God prepared the end ahead of time.

To me, assigning this false "nature" to God, is the same as Job's wife/soul saying to him, curse God and die, because of all the external circumstances he had to go thru to receive the double portion, for Job received double.

And as for a personal application, when my son was nearly brutally murdered with steel pipes he was beaten in the skull with and brain damaged, I saw the hand of God in it, because he was restored almost completely, though the doctors said he would be a vegetable if he lived, and most important of all, within two weeks of his release from the hospital he received the Lord and was actually praying for his attackers, and telling EVERYONE he met that God had saved him and healed him.

As for me, I had it made LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, TRULY the Lord meant it for good. Blessings....

i reread your post more slowly, and it is good.  thanks.


Would you, if you knew the outcome of your son's story; purposely set this horrible beating up??  It seems to me, that is what God is doing.  It's the wrath OF God.

It also seems that you purposely would of withheld his understanding of your love from him, in order to have this outcome later. 

that is what the verses appear to say of God, which I don't buy.


Now, if God has truly made himself known, and choosing "life and death" is an option; with death having consequences; then yes i see your point. 

so, once again; for me; it comes down to free will.


except for instances where infants are beaten against rocks, cut out of wombs, etc. 



Jesus revealed the Father, which seems to be much more of a peacemaker and true friend than a jealous God demanding glory.

:cloud9: Zeek, believe this or not, but about 3 years before it happened, the Lord gave me a dream in which I was in the very hospital they took him to afterwards initially, and saw a policeman (police took him to the hospital, not a unit) talking to a nurse. I was allowed to know only that something had happened to one or both of my sons, and that it was bad, maybe even to death.

I was at work asleep (worked for group home company in a 24/7 position) when I had this and I hit my face on the floor crying and begging for mercy for them. I had no idea if whatever it was, just happened, or was about to happen. I thought, maybe a car wreck? I had no idea. Anyway, plain as day, I heard, "Would you die for them?"

After a few seconds of reasoning whether or not He might mean that LITERALLY, I said, "Yes, Lord, I would." And I kept on praying. When it was light, I called them both and told them how much I loved them, my dream, God's love for them, and told them they needed to get themselves in line with God's perfect will for their lives.

He showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

My son was 21 and had just moved out, my daughter was only 16. And "die" I did. Sometimes I literally had to bite my tongue to keep from going into "parent" mode and ranting over things they did that they had been taught better of.

Anyway, nothing happened for over 3 years, and by then I had forgotten the dream/vision.

The 5th day after, when he was stable, my daughter and I left the hospital where he was lifelined to, to go home long enough to get clothes and let her pick up her paycheck and tell them she was not coming back to work for probably weeks, if not months. While she was in there, in my still in shock state of mind, I was asking God why didn't you warn me so I could pray? And instantly, that dream came back to me. All I felt led to pray in the ER while he lay there in a coma, was the place my hands on his head and loose him into the perfect will of His Father, and then they wheeled him into emergency brain surgery.

What He showed me was, the unconditional love that had been poured on them from Him thru me, was the seed of Christ in them being watered, that was literally going to resurrect my son back from the dead.  

Now let me tell you how bad he was. He had 4 different type of brain damage. The neurosurgeon told us he only had a 20% chance of survival for the next 24 hours following IF he survived the surgery, but that he would be dead within 24 hours without it, for sure. And that IF he survived he would be a vegetable.

And as a sidenote; the generational curses? While I was sitting with him in neurocritical care, his blood pressure shot way up into stroke range and set off alarms. I started praying, watching one side of his body draw up, and the Lord spoke, "Stroke" to me and to my astonishment, told me this was a generation curse trying to find life. I only then remembered that my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and possibly my father (no autopsy) had all died from strokes.

This happened 3 times, and 3 times I rebuked it and commanded it to leave. Three times, his body straightened back out. He never had any residual paralysis as they expected, although he did have to go thru some physical therapy to regain correct motor control, for a few weeks. And he started out thinking he was Batman, and that he was nine, and this 6'3" young man was calling me "Mommy" like he was a little boy again. That in itself was a "death" for me; it broke my heart every time he said it.

He was in the rehab hospital by that point, where they send all the Indy 500 drivers if they crash and get badly injured. They all said he was a miracle as did the hospital where he was at. The whole place was talking about him; they said he was a miracle and the physicians all said they had never seen anyone recover so completely from such massive damage. He's probably 90-95% recovered today, with mostly odd little personality changes, that mostly only family would notice.

Now; having explained all this, only God knows what it will take to break our wills to get us to Him. I was a hard nut to crack, also, and I went thru a literal hell for Him to get me, complete with demons tormenting me for 13 days after seeing my best friend almost possessed by one. She and I went thru things that are unspeakable, but both of us, from day one have thanked Him for allowing judgment to have it's perfect work.

My son was the same way. He held no bitterness towards his attackers. I was humbled at this revealing of the Christ in him which was immediate, because I admit I was struggling for a season with not being able to pray for them wholeheartedly as he was. I came finally to the place in God where it was TRULY LIFE in me, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good, and I could pray for the "servants of High Priest that took Him to go to the cross".

This life in the flesh is not an easy walk. Terrible things happen. But we must believe that He has His eye on the end, otherwise a root of bitterness that it was said would raise up and defile many in the last days, will.

As for free will.......this debate always bothered me, because although He had made the fact He is sovereign life in me when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, a revelation that resulted in my total healing in a week's time, I could still see and hear the free will side, as well.

So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME. It was this. I was driving and used this as an example of the two principles being in harmony. He showed me, me driving and making decisions on turns, ect. based on circumstances as it is in life, living in the realm of time, where we can't see the end from the beginning.

He showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

From our limited vantage point below in time, it APPEARS that we are making the choices, and we are. But what is not seen except thru the revelation of the Spirit, is what HE did to get us to arrive at that desired point. In this way, both viewpoints are reconciled. Blessings....

Beautiful.  Thank you and abundant blessings to you.

Powerful,Cardinal. Thanx so much for sharing.

Grace and peace

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 04:33:05 PM1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All of you do know that this is done with water baptism the same way it was done in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira, right?  The water in the Old Testament was seen as the domain of Leviathan, i.e. Satan, and there is a type of water baptism where you deal with one of God's Jonahs.  The water in the Old Testament was viewed as the destruction of the flesh, Noah's flood being a prime example, the domain of death, so that we're buried with Him in baptism in Romans 6.  Genesis 1 talks about the Holy Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters, same as He did at Jesus' water baptism.

Quote from: martincisneros on September 20, 2009, 07:00:43 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 04:33:05 PM1Co 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All of you do know that this is done with water baptism the same way it was done in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira, right?  The water in the Old Testament was seen as the domain of Leviathan, i.e. Satan, and there is a type of water baptism where you deal with one of God's Jonahs.  The water in the Old Testament was viewed as the destruction of the flesh, Noah's flood being a prime example, the domain of death, so that we're buried with Him in baptism in Romans 6.  Genesis 1 talks about the Holy Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters, same as He did at Jesus' water baptism.

:cloud9: Whoa! Those are some good points I had never connected all together before, Martin. Thanks for posting this. Going to have to meditate on these. :thumbsup: Blessings...

Quote from: Zeek on September 20, 2009, 06:49:51 PM
Beautiful.  Thank you and abundant blessings to you.

:cloud9: Thanks, but believe me when I say it was all Him. Abundant blessings to you, as well.  :girlheart:

Quote from: CardinalHe showed me that the "death" I was to go thru in part was to love them unconditionally, setting aside my "normal" parent inclinations to administer "judgment", and do absolutely nothing but let Him love them all (my daughter included) thru me. It was HARD, let me tell you. It's comparatively easy to walk in unconditional love with strangers, walking AS HIM, not imputing their sins. After all, they don't listen/respond, they go to their own home and it's on them. Your kids, you have to deal with always, LOL.

But with your kids, you want to get in there with the arm of flesh, and bring correction all the time. But He told me I was to do absolutely nothing but keep the cord of unconditional love intact and put down my fleshly role as parent, and HE would step in as parent. (Don't do this unless He leads you to; be led of the Spirit in all things).

Same thing happened to me, Card.  That was such a leap of faith for me, to let go and let Him 'take over' lol.  As you can imagine, I am a ferocious and passionate parent.  But, all that remains hidden in Him now.  And, He is better at it than I could ever hope to be in a million years [no surprise lol].

QuoteHe showed me that He is dwelling above in the realm of timelessness seeing the end from the beginning, and as such, is able to orchestrate events to correct our path to His desired outcome, by "putting up roadblocks, detours, changing events, different people in our path" ect.

I know.  It's just amazing.  Although, sometimes I get the sense of angels tearing out their hair lol.  But, from my new perspective, I can just sit back and watch it and be amazed.

 :cloud9: It was a leap of faith alright. He had to practically hog tie me to accomplish it. I went thru some persecution over it, from parents who thought I'd lost my mind.

I should add that my daughter, now 21, was broken and repented and got delivered of all she had taken on herself during that time period, in April of this year, and is back to seeking God.

She recognized the unconditional love for what it was, and I overheard her many times even in her rebellion stage, telling her friends different things about unconditional love. So much so, one time I heard her exclaim to a girlfriend, "OMG, I sound just like my Mom!" She thought it was funny and came and told me about it in person, LOL. God is faithful. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 20, 2009, 06:39:35 PM
So a few months ago He gave me something that finally reconciled both sides of that debate, for ME.

What a liberation, to respect and appreciate differences, not using them as weapons of prejudice but at the same time not being imprisoned by them!

peacemaker  :cloud9:

Quote- It wasn't baptised.

You just end up going to Infant Limbo, according to the Catholic Church years ago.  Luckily they got rid of that belief long ago.  Supposedly they were in deprivation from God, but did not have to endure the Pain of Senses.  Another church doctrine claiming that those souls in hell are "blessed" with physical torments to distract them from the pain of loss, which is absolutely no God.  Sounds a bit absurd, and nonsensical.  Now the Catholic Church teaches that unbaptised babies are entrusted to God.  Yet their dogma states that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.  Doesnt make much sense.  But thats not the worse.  One group of Sedevacantists, a religion that believes  that there has not been a valid Pope for a long time believe that there is absolutely no Salvation outside the Catholic Church, and unbaptized babies go to hell.  This theology was started by FR. Leonard Feeney.  But they believed that Satan loves abortions cause then he gets their souls.  Sounds like a pretty incompetent God.  Thank the lord these are lies.