Sky receding like a scroll

[Livelystone]

:cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my  :2c:. Blessings....

I agree

And while they represent the descendants by flesh from Abraham they also regarding future prophecies represent the church of the flesh who do not worship in spirit and in truth

They are the ones of the sanctuary who do not have the mark of the Cross on their foreheads that is the mountain provided by Jesus for us to ascend unto in order to be within the Holiest and the presence of the Lord

We all deal with our flesh and past....... and I pray that you folks are tormented far less than I am.

However our Father in His unending mercy has offered his pure and sinless flesh in place of my filthy rags so that I too can depart from the realm of earthly flesh and ascend to sit in heavenly places where I may be both comforted from my flesh and hear the things of God.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, I agree........ :thumbsup: Blessings.....

[Taffy]

I agree 3  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:  :icon_flower:

[rosered]

 

  So do I !! Heb 123 'Edom  from H122'adom 1) red, ruddy (of man, horse, heifer, garment, water, lentils)





Edom = "red"

1) Edom

2) Edomite, Idumean - descendants of Esau

3) land of Edom, Idumea - land south and south east of Palestine

h6215 `Esav

Esau = "hairy"

1) eldest son of Isaac and Rebecca and twin brother of Jacob; sold the birthright for food when he was hungry and the divine blessing went to Jacob; progenitor of the Arab peoples


   seeing a'' hairy red man as  the  carnal wrath of man /flesh  as well  :thumbsup: :icon_flower:   :HeartThrob:  rose

[Beloved Servant]

     Rather, Edom is symbolic of enemies of the saints, who hinder them from possessing the promises.
Doug

:cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my  :2c:. Blessings....

I see similarities here.

[Doug]

And while they represent the descendants by flesh from Abraham they also regarding future prophecies represent the church of the flesh who do not worship in spirit and in truth

Interesting comments.

There is a book by Ernest L. Martin, The People That History Forgot, that discusses the Edomites of the Bible, and their history.
http://www.askelm.com/people/

Martin pointed out that more is said about them in prophecy than any other (non-Israelite) nation.
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p060701.htm

Dr. Martin believed that the people of Tyre were descended from Edom. Many of these people eventually migrated or were taken as slaves to Rome, and some of the Roman emperors were Edomites. He suggested the descendants of Edom were involved in establishing the major world religions.

Doug

[eaglesway]

Even tho the blood on the doorpost, and Red Sea parting, and the pillar of cloud and fire are images of our salvation by blood through water and in Spirit.....They actually happened. Even tho the eight souls saved from the kosmos that was created out of water then destroyed with water are a type of our deliverance- the flood actually happened. The spiritual realities behind the visible occurrences are more real than the occurrences in the sense that what is unseen is greater than that which is seen, yet, there must be a literal outpouring of the Spirit into our hearts in order to realize the promises made. The saints must "actually pray", hear His voice and seek His face to enter His rest. The veil will actually be rent in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, the dead shall actually be raised. I think disassociating the symbology(or spiritual reality) from the historic outworking only creates confusion and gnostic elitism. The distinguishing of the principles behind the events, such as His appearing, was easy enough to make in the scriptures by the writers- to the church and among themselves, so I really don t see it as all that big an issue. The veil is rent for us already, but only in part. A Day is coming is when we shall know as we are known, but not all will know as we will at that time, until later on...for them the veil will remain, in part. Eventually all rule power and authority will be abolished and there will be no veils at all anywhere for anyone. We are in time, in order to be reasonable, it seems to me,  we have to deal with time event horizons and aionios realities as the writers of scripture did......together.

Also, My 2cents, again. There is a specificity about Esau that I think is real, yea, I agree he is the flesh hairy man etc.- 
but Hebrews 12:16 refers to his selling out of the inheritance for a morsel of food. It was for this cause he lost the birthright altho he later "earnestly" sought it with bitter tears, he could not.

Our birthright is sonship, maturity in Christs nature leads to placement over the inheritance. I see little evidence of placed sons, leading me to believe many veils remain.

Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 4:1-6  Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest,........ Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Although Edom later warred against Israel, as did Samaria and Ishmael and Ephraim in particular against his own brothers....there is something in that sellout of Esau's that is worthy of note(by the Holy Spirit in Hebrews at least) in regards to inheriting the promises. Hebrews is about the rending of the veil, and about the preisthood, sonship and how we enter it. They are all related, as he who is our high priest entered in before us, having been perfected by suffering, leading many sons to glory along the same path to a shared priesthood.

[Doug]

I think disassociating the symbology(or spiritual reality) from the historic outworking only creates confusion and gnostic elitism.

Did you find my suggestion that Edom represents the enemies of the church confusing?

The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.

How do you understand this, without interpreting? Is the "little stone" a literal stone? Does Mt. Zion literally grow taller than Mount Everest?

for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:

In your opinion, is Zion in this prophecy literal, and is Jerusalem the earthly city, or does it mean the church as suggested by Heb. 12:22?

Will people go back to fighting with swords and spears? At present, those weapons are out of fashion, while guns are in.

Doug

[eaglesway]

Doug
I think you misunderstood that my post was to you specifically. I was just restating some things in relation to my previous posts as well as all the other posts in the thread including yours. I have no desire to engage in a point by point debate with you. But I will answer briefly. The statements I made about Edom and Esau did not exclude and were not to the exclusion of your statements about it, or anyone elses. Simply a point I was making regarding a specific aspect of Esau I find prophetically important, and that the Holy Spirit testifies to in the word. There may be more than one or two aspects of Esau worthy of consideration.....I do not see what I said as all inclusive.
     As far as the little stone. When I was speaking about the general subject of reconciling prophetic realities with the literal events (in my last post)that sometimes accompany them- I was referring primarily to the sky(oraunos heavens) being rolled back as a scroll, which is in Isaiah 34:4 and Rev 6:14. I was speaking about this, in the line of the general discussion, because I believe this refers to the second coming of Christ....which is a historical event to come- fulfilling a spiritual reality we have received already in part. This is like the flood and the exodus.....not purely symbolic, but accompanied by historic manifestation. This is a different type of vision than for instance, Zechariahs lampstand or Jeremiahs good and bad figs.
      As I explained in my view of the woman clothed with the sun, we compare spiritual terms with spiritual realities. We may not see them all alike. I obviously do not look for a mountain larger than Everest (did you read my post before you responded?) because I stated clearly that the many mountains represented various prophetic principles, such as Mt. Sinai, being compared with the law and Ishmael. I do not understand your attitude. If I find it troubling to say the least, but lest this go any further I ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in some way.
If I have, please send me a private message and we can hash it out. I cannot know whose doctrinal views I may be stepping on when I share, and I assume when we disagree we can discuss it respectfully, in the spirit of midrash.

2Ti 2:24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Jas 3:17-18  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.  (18)  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
                                                     Grace and peace,John

[eaglesway]

Some more thoughts on veils, wheels within wheels, layers of the onion, We all stumble in many ways

Even as a veil separates the light from the darkness - we are children of the light, not children of darkness, or offspring of "this present evil aion"Gal 1:4. If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the "god of this aion" has blinded the minds of them 2 Cor. 4:4

Gen 1:2-4  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

   I have been seeing a relationship between aion and kosmos, because of the way Peter talks of the "earth" being created "out of water" and destruction of that "kosmos" by water(the flood) in 2 Peter 3. It would seem possible that the life of a "kosmos" could correspond to an "aion" even as the life of a man can be measured by "aion". The use of earth(ghay), world (kosmos), "heavens" (oraunos) and "heavens and earth"(ouranos, ghay) seem interlaced in these following verses.

2Pe 3:4-8  and saying,"Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.  (5)  For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,  (6)  by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.  (7)  But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hemera) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8)  Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now(in the moment that is, "Today") and for ever (eis hemera aion [strongs]- unto the day of the age). Amen.

The day of the age?
    Peter uses the word hemera-day repeatedly: let the day dawn, day of judgment and perdition, day of God, day of the Lord, day of the age, a day as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day- interesting, this thousand year day. Peter says, "Be not ignorant of this one thing", like, as Paul would say, Behold I show you a mystery.

The "heavens and earth which are now", compared with, "the world(kosmos) that was then". If heavens and earth is somewhat interchangeable with "kosmos", it has some interesting applications.

Also, altho it says "the kosmos that was, then perished", but obviously the physical earth did not perish. It seems similarly then that the heavens and the earth that are now reserved for fire, is the "kosmos" and the elements of it, and that the "new heavens and the new earth" will be the renewed kosmos(Behold, I make all things new) transformed by the presence of God who is a consuming fire, death swallowing up mortality and creation set free from futility eh, wot? A thousand year day....the day of the age, a day of fiery transition from what is to a new kosmos "in which tabernacles righteousness'. Our day of deliverance and fulfillment is their day of perdition until all be redeemed.

Rev 11:18-19  "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time(kiaros-appointed time) came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."  (19)  And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened(sky rolled back as a scroll); and the ark of His covenant(sign of the son of man) appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away(sky roll back as a scroll) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This compares with the heavens and earth, the kosmos that was then being "destroyed" by the flood


2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hamerah) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Every man's work will be tested by fire, for the day shall reveal it 1 Cor 3:12-15)


In 1 Thess 4 and in 1 Cor 15 Paul ties these things to the event of the physical resurrection of the dead and the Lord descending from heaven.....the first resurrection.

Of course, only "the children of the day" will take part in it. The sleeping ones and the surfeiting ones will be taken as a thief. Therefore "walk in the light as He is in the light". For this reason Paul sought by any means to attain to the "out resurrection from amongst the dead" (exanastasis)Phil 3:8-16. He did not feel he had attained to it yet because as long as we are in the body we must overcome to remain in that hope of "escaping the hour of trial that is to come upon all them that dwell on the earth, which is not the tribulation, it is the Great White Throne.


Rom 2:5-7  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day(hemera) of wrath and revelation(apokalupsis) of the righteous judgment(tribunal) of God;  (6)  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:  (7)  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(aionios) life:



We, in the Bride, are like the Betrothed of the Lord, our veil is taken away in Christ, yet only in part now, the day star has risen, the day dawns....we must pursue unto the full noon. Those who endure to the end (waiting on the Lord while they live, to the end of their trial) will receive the purchased possession. Now we have only the pledge(down payment, dowry). We have an "anchor within the veil", having "not seen yet believing". At the marriage supper, which is begun now but will be consummated at the end of this age, our veil will be fully removed and we will enter the bed chamber for unbroken fellowship with the Lord(thus shall we ever be with the Lord).

1Jn 5:19-20  And we know that we are of God, and the whole world(kosmos) lieth in wickedness.  (20)  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal(aionios) life.

[Livelystone]

Hello again EW

I can see the love of Christ in your words and that is good........ real good as love does cover a lot of our "missing the mark' while we still struggle with seeing in part because of the flesh that still hinders our spiritual vision. IMO our shortcoming of only seeing in part is more often than not brought about by us following the letter of the word therfore we miss the Spirit of the Word

Maybe that is why so many things are written as how an onion is formed rather than just sum it up as Christ the seed with the hope of glory being Him the seed becoming a fully mature fruit baring tree within us because believe me when I say ........That is the "second coming of Christ" and not the man Jesus walking on earth again.  :thumbsup:

2 Pet 3. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

We need to go to and fro with a little here and a little there to have our understanding of these passages increased minus the veil that Moses wore in order to see what the spirit is saying here

Considering the things of old (seeing in part) the earth (we are earthen vessels) standing in the water (believing in the Word) yet standing out of the water (we are still an uncompleted work because we only see in part) but when fully covered with water (us fully in the Word as our understanding increases) just as how the water that covered the earth in the flood that saved (sanctified) eight souls

I believe the Lord would have me to stop at this point

Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

[Cardinal]

Considering the things of old (seeing in part) the earth (we are earthen vessels) standing in the water (believing in the Word) yet standing out of the water (we are still an uncompleted work because we only see in part) but when fully covered with water (us fully in the Word as our understanding increases) just as how the water that covered the earth in the flood that saved (sanctified) eight souls

I believe the Lord would have me to stop at this point

Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

:cloud9: He might, but I sure wouldn't.......... :winkgrin: Blessings.... :thumbsup:

[Doug]

Doug
I think you misunderstood that my post was to you specifically. I was just restating some things in relation to my previous posts as well as all the other posts in the thread including yours.

Thanks for your responses. I was not offended; my questions were asking for some clarity, as the comment by you that I quoted mentioned "confusion" and "gnostic elitism."
   
It may be true that some of the ideas that have been presented have a "gnostic" character. And there is certainly plenty of confusion. I have quoted the views of several authors, all of them having different opinions on the meaning of the heavens rolling together as a scroll, and certainly the variety of opinions demonstrates confusion. But I aim for clarity, and for truth. We have a promise from the Lord that the Spirit will guide us to the truth. I have a suggestion; it would be helpful in the discussion, when labels like "gnostic" and "confusion" are used for the views of others, to quote the statements that those labels apply to, or identify the post or the author you are referring to. Otherwise those terms seem like an attempt smear other views, and no one can be sure whether their posts were the target or not.  :Sparkletooth:

As far as the little stone. When I was speaking about the general subject of reconciling prophetic realities with the literal events (in my last post)that sometimes accompany them- I was referring primarily to the sky(oraunos heavens) being rolled back as a scroll, which is in Isaiah 34:4 and Rev 6:14. I was speaking about this, in the line of the general discussion, because I believe this refers to the second coming of Christ....which is a historical event to come- fulfilling a spiritual reality we have received already in part. This is like the flood and the exodus.....not purely symbolic, but accompanied by historic manifestation.

Can you explain this a little more? I think the 6th seal, when this event occurs, is before the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the saints, which occur at the "last trump," the seventh. But the heavens rolling together as a scroll is certainly in the "day of the Lord."

Doug

[Doug]

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away(sky roll back as a scroll) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This compares with the heavens and earth, the kosmos that was then being "destroyed" by the flood


2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hamerah) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Every man's work will be tested by fire, for the day shall reveal it 1 Cor 3:12-15)

The heavens Peter is referring to here certainly must be the starry heavens. I think Peter refers to the creation account in Genesis which describes the earth as created "standing out of the water and in the water."

The waters breaking forth from within the earth's interior caused the flood, according to Peter. The heavens of Peter's time, "which are now," (as he said), refers to the cosmology of the ancient world.  People in those days thought the stars were fixed in a rigid heavenly firmament, that revolved around the earth every day. The planets and sun and moon were thought to be attached to invisible spheres revolving around the earth. This view dominated the thinking of men for thousands of years.

That is what has "passed away." The "great noise" is the commotion that arose, after men realized there is no rigid firmament up there, because of the scientific revolution. The church had been foremost in promoting the flawed cosmology of the ancient Greeks. Many of the great cathedrals of the world feature domes that when constructed, were supposed to represent the rigid heavenly firmament. And the church had vigorously defended the geocentric cosmology against astronomers such as Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler and others who supported the heliocentric view. The church's scholars claimed the geocentric view was the one supported in scripture.

Peter foretold the scientific revolution, in 2 Pet. 3:10, IMO. The "great noise" continues today. Many people today would deny the geocentric cosmology is supported in scripture. I think it is, but only because of corruptions introduced in hellenistic times. There was a systematic revision of the cosmology of the OT in the time of Antiochus IV.

The heavens being rolled together as a scroll makes sense only because this prophecy represents the end of the supposed revolutions of the heavens, which ceased in the scientific revolution. I suggest everyone could easily demonstrate this to themselves, by making a model of a scroll, using some cardboard rolls from the kitchen, a spent roll from package of plastic wrap for example. Cut it in two, and tape a strip of newspaper to each roll, and roll them together. When they meet, it is impossible to roll the spindles together any more. That is the essence of Isaiah's prophecy. It is what the scientific revolution is about. The heaven does not revolve round the earth, but the earth revolves instead.

(http://www.sentex.net/%7Etcc/scroll1.gif)

This discovery changed the course of history in a profound way. It is one of the most significant events in all of the history of man. Why should the Bible not have predicted it? I say it does, in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4. However, the skeptics refuse to acknowledge that such a prophecy could be in the Bible. Their minds are prejudiced against it. Let's not be like them! We are supposed to be "children of light," not of darkness!

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)

[Doug]

Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)

I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.

Doug

[Molly]

Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)

I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.

Doug

First of all, those men who brought about this change were Christians--Newton, Keppler--most of what they wrote was on theology.  These early giants of science were searching for God.

But, today, science has been perverted by men who lie about it in schools and newspapers and books,  and hidden from the general public for over 100 years.  Is that part of any prophecy, too?

[Doug]

I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.

First of all, those men who brought about this change were Christians--Newton, Keppler--most of what they wrote was on theology.  These early giants of science were searching for God.

But, today, science has been perverted by men who lie about it in schools and newspapers and books,  and hidden from the general public for over 100 years.  Is that part of any prophecy, too?

Things would be different if people knew about Isaiah's prediction of the scientific revolution, don't you think? The misinformation you refer to would be included in the "noise." But there are other prophecies, that refer to the spiritual "darkness" of our age:

Isaiah 60:2
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Joel 2:2 describes the day of the Lord as "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness." Also Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Peter spoke of prophecy as a "light that shineth in a dark place," implying we are living in the spiritual "night," and the "day" is yet to dawn.

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Jesus also said "the night cometh" referring to the spiritual darkness that was to come upon the world. His ministry and the gospel were a "great light," and he called it "day."

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

There are many others...

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Don't shoot the messenger Molly :robinhood:
I've been looking but can find my notes  :sigh:
A OT prophesy points to a event in the near past where a new model for the cosmos was accepted by science.
It fell on a Sabbath or even Jubilee year. Vague. Yes. But all I have right now.
In case it intrests someone:
Daniels prophesy Jubilee year
70 year desolation of Jerusalem ends on a Sabbath year
Jerusalem rebuild on Jubilee year.
Jesus starts ministry on a Sabbath year.
Gospel to Gentiles ends on a Jubelee year.
Temple destroyed on a Sabbath year
End of flood Jubilee year
Exodus ends on a Jubilee year.
etc

Just a sample of what I waste my time on  :eeew:

[Molly]

Peter spoke of prophecy as a "light that shineth in a dark place," implying we are living in the spiritual "night," and the "day" is yet to dawn.

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Jesus also said "the night cometh" referring to the spiritual darkness that was to come upon the world. His ministry and the gospel were a "great light," and he called it "day."

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Yes, it's odd.  When Jesus walked the earth he seemed to keep implying that this was a moment of great light that was going to revert to darkness--where we [the followers of Christ] would be the only light available to the world.  We are still living in the age of darkness, but now it is punctured by some bright lights.

Right now, we are in another dark age as dark as anything in the middle ages.  The Renaissance was quickly snuffed out by the god of this world.  People are uneducated, afraid, asleep, the walking dead.  They are buried alive and don't know which way is up.  And, it's getting darker by the minute.

I'm thinking about the timing of all of this.  I don't know prophecy well enough to determine it.  Without the arrival of Jesus 2000 years ago, we would not even talk about dark ages because we would never have seen the light.

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

[Doug]

Yes, it's odd.  When Jesus walked the earth he seemed to keep implying that this was a moment of great light that was going to revert to darkness--where we [the followers of Christ] would be the only light available to the world.  We are still living in the age of darkness, but now it is punctured by some bright lights.

Right now, we are in another dark age as dark as anything in the middle ages.  The Renaissance was quickly snuffed out by the god of this world.  People are uneducated, afraid, asleep, the walking dead.  They are buried alive and don't know which way is up.  And, it's getting darker by the minute.

I'm thinking about the timing of all of this.  I don't know prophecy well enough to determine it.  Without the arrival of Jesus 2000 years ago, we would not even talk about dark ages because we would never have seen the light.

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

In my view, the day of the Lord includes the scientific revolution, and spans all the time since then. The scientific revolution in the mid-eighteenth century was when the heavens were "cleansed,"  [Dan. 8:14]  which fulfilled Daniel's prophecy of the 2,300 days. That was 23 centuries after Daniel saw the vision of Dan. 8.

The prophecy of the heavens rolling up as a scroll in Isa. 34:4 pictures the scientific revolution in astronomy. The Ptolemaic system was swept away to oblivion, once men realized the earth rotates about its axis. Isaiah's prophecy that "all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree" foretold Newton's discovery of universal gravitation. What else is universal gravitation but a statement that "all their host falls down"? Every particle in the universe "falls" towards every other mass.

Newton compared the moon's orbit of the earth to the fall of an apple from a tree; Isaiah compares it to figs.

Daniel wrote: 

Daniel 12:3-4
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In our age, both travel and knowledge have increased.

Zechariah said it would be a time of "neither dark nor light."

Zechariah 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

We have a great deal of technological knowledge, and scientific knowledge, so our age is not completely dark. The deficiency is in our spiritual understanding. That's why we need to look into prophecy.

Doug

[Molly]

Zechariah said it would be a time of "neither dark nor light."

Zechariah 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

We have a great deal of technological knowledge, and scientific knowledge, so our age is not completely dark. The deficiency is in our spiritual understanding. That's why we need to look into prophecy.

So are you saying we are in the day of the Lord now?  for 1000 years from the time of the enlightenment?  Then we need to stand up and take hold of the great advances in science that have been hidden from us, and doled out like cookies by a stringent nanny.  The cell phone was invented in the 1890's-- when did you see it?  Everything we know as history and politics is complete lies, but there are other clear voices telling the truth--and even going to jail for it, even dying for it.    This gives us a day that is neither clear nor dark.  But, the prophet says that as that day turns to night, the light will shine. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth...


Most of the world is in darkness now, not by accident, but by design.  I would love to think that suddenly the light of God would come on full force.



24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

--Acts 4

[Doug]

So are you saying we are in the day of the Lord now?  for 1000 years from the time of the enlightenment?

The "day of the Lord" includes the enlightenment, and the scientific revolution, if I understand 2 Peter 3:10 correctly, when he said "the heavens will pass away the great noise." The old heavens, of Peter's day, has disappeared. 

The scientific revolution "cleansed" or "set right" man's view of the heavens, and this fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the 2,300 days, Dan 8:14. It was when modern astronomy replaced the old geocentric cosmology. About 1750 AD, 23 centuries after Daniel's vision, the rigid heavenly firmament, and the planetary spheres were abolished forever. Look at the events of that period, that combined to fulfill Daniel's prophecy:
 
In 1720, Jacob van 'sGravesande published his Mathematical elements of natural philosophy confirmed by experiments, or an introduction to Sir Isaac Newton's philosophy.

In 1725 James Bradley discovered the aberration of light, thus proving the earth's motion.

The third edition of Newton's Principia was published in 1726, when Newton was 80 years old.

In 1736 Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis led an expedition to Lapland to measure the length of a degree along the meridian. The results verified Newton's concept of gravity, which required that the earth is an oblate spheroid, flattened in polar regions.

Francesco Algarotti published his 'Il newtonianismo per le dame' [Newtonianism for the Ladies] in 1736, on Newton's optics. It became one of the most popular accounts of Newton's philosophy.

Voltaire (Francios Marie Arounet) and Madame du Chatelet (Emilie de Breteuil) wrote a popular exposition of Newton's discoveries, "Elements of Sir Isaac Newton's Philosophy". Both French and English editions were published in 1738.

In 1743 Alexis Claude Clairaut explained the figure of the earth by his theorem connecting gravity at points on the surface of a rotating ellipsoid with the centrifugal force at the equator.

In 1747 Claurault wrote  about a "great revolution in physics" caused by Newton's 'Principia'. The idea that a scientific revolution in astronomy was underway became prevalent in the second half of the eighteenth century. It was the basis for Kant's description of the time as "the age of enlightenment."

In 1744 the Roman Catholic Church allowed the printing of Galileo's Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. It still remained on the Index of Prohibited Books, and inclusion of Galileo's recantation of Copernican theory was required in the same volume.

In 1747 Emilie de Breteuil and Alexis Clairaut began translating Newton's Principia into French; the work was published in 1759.

In 1749 Clairaut showed that Newton's theory of gravity was confirmed by observations of the motion of the moon.

Mikhail Vasilyevich Lomonosov, who had studied at Freiberg, introduced the new astronomy and the Copernican theory at the Academy of St. Petersburg in Russia, beginning about 1750. In 1755 he founded Moscow University.

In 1750 Thomas Wright published An Original Theory and New Hypothesis of the Universe in which he proposed that the Sun and stars form a giant system rotating around a common center, thus describing the modern view of the Milky Way.

In 1755 Immanuel Kant suggested that nebulae are large star systems like the Milky Way.

In 1757, the Congregation of the Index "secretly allowed the ideas of Copernicus to be tolerated." Also, Lutheran theologians in Germany opposed the Copernican theory during the first part of the eighteenth century, claiming it was opposed to scripture, "yet at the middle of the century we find some of the clearest-headed of them aware of the fact that their cause was lost." [A. D. White, Warfare of Science with Theology, Chapter III: Astronomy.]
http://www.santafe.edu/~shalizi/White/astronomy/results-of-victory.html

In 1757, musician William Herschel of Hanover migrated to England, where he became interested in astronomy. His improved telescope design led to many discoveries.

The return of Halley's comet, which reached perihelion on March 12, 1759, was regarded as a great triumph for the Newtonian theory. Its reappearance in 1758 had been predicted by Edmund Halley.

French mathematician Jean Lerond d'Alembert wrote in 1759: "Our century is called ... the century of philosophy par excellence ... The discovery and application of a new method of philosophizing, the kind of enthusiasm which accompanies discoveries, a certain exaltation of ideas which the spectacle of the universe produces in us - all these causes have brought about a lively fermentation of minds, spreading through nature in all directions like a river which has burst its dams."
[Quoted in: Hankins, Thomas L. 1985. Science and the Enlightenment. Cambridge University Press, p. 1.]

Doug

[eaglesway]

Wow lotsa posts since this morning :o). My whole point was that I see many folks trying to separate the wheels within wheels. For instance, with the little stone. As the spiritual reality presented in the vision is worked out over time(within time) there will be many "noises" and many "lightnings" (His judgments flash like lightnings from His right hand; Habbakuk 3:4). When I hear folks disassociating these "in time" events, which are important, and always have been, or God would not notify us prophetically before hand and explain and define them prophetically after the fact, as if the "history past" and the "history to come" are unimportant, I think they are missing some important parts of the revelation. The way I see it is that some of these spiritual realities actually find fulfilment in time-for instance, the full birth of the lamb slain is expressed in the crucifixion.

1Pe 1:20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Heb 9:26  Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Other spiritual realities have their consummation at different points in history. Prophecy is the event horizon.

Also, I believe the water the Noah was saved through was not the same as the washing of the water of the word in that it destroyed the existing kosmos, and everyone in it. Even as the water of the Red Sea destroyed the Horse and Rider(strong man and his armies). Even as the water in baptism is the earth into which we are buried, finishing the judgment of the old man and destroying our old kosmos and bringing us into the new....a veil that all must pass through in order to receive sonship. Altho on the flipside I do see that all things are of God and in a sense everything flows from Him, but the Logos is making distinctions and I agree with those distinctions. For the present evil age is under judgment, and their is a distinction till all be redeemed. Out of time, back later.

[Molly]

The "day of the Lord" includes the enlightenment, and the scientific revolution, if I understand 2 Peter 3:10 correctly, when he said "the heavens will pass away the great noise." The old heavens, of Peter's day, has disappeared. 

The scientific revolution "cleansed" or "set right" man's view of the heavens, and this fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the 2,300 days, Dan 8:14. It was when modern astronomy replaced the old geocentric cosmology. About 1750 AD, 23 centuries after Daniel's vision, the rigid heavenly firmament, and the planetary spheres were abolished forever. Look at the events of that period, that combined to fulfill Daniel's prophecy:

Well, yes, it was certainly a glorious time.  This is what happens when an exceptional number of geniuses, [as were our own founders], are floating around at the same time.  And, all of this was growing out of two great events:  the Protestant Reformation and the invention of the printing press.

The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.


But, look what happened to the enlightenment.  It devolved into the Jacobin reign of terror during the French Revolution.  Could things get any darker?  Yes, they could--out of the ashes rose Napoleon to wreck havoc on all the enemies of the church--an Emperor?  The Roman Empire reviving it's ugly head? 

Does it ever end?

Today we have the ability to be the most informed generation in the history of mankind.  The internet--one big mind--google anything and you will find the answer.  No longer can a few rich men control the flow of information.  No longer can a few be the arbitrers of truth, as if truth were negotiable.  And, what do they want to do?  Shut it down!

It is a constant battle that never lets up. :msealed:

Rev 12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.