How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below? It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)
Thank you
Quote from: pauperest on September 09, 2009, 07:17:25 PM
How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below? It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)
Thank you
I thought Revelation was a Book Of symbols revealing the LIFE of Christ?
Briefly ,Could It be the passing of the Old Covenant , Heavens can be likened to Mind or that which rules over it...
Heaven and Earth shall NOT pass away Until all BE fufilled , a shaking in the Heavens,= The End of the Old , The Begininng of the New
Youll may find the moon stars were the patriarchs of the nation of ISRAEL. Gen 37:9
The Sun shall Rule BY DAY , ( NC)
The Moon By Night (OC)
The moon blood COVERED is symbolic of Christ spilt Blood, Death No longer reigns , as the Ministry of Death is NO more
:icon_flower:
OK, I'll try, but there are many things at work in this scripture.
Symbolism is at play here so know that the heavens inhabit the sky over your head and the high realm of the spirit within you. They rule what they inhabit.
Also, think of Gods plan for creation as already finished.
God's plan is like one giant, 7,000-year long Web page on his computer, the page is already a finished document and He can scroll up and down the Web page to anywhere in time. He lives in the NOW.
We are living out that plan as characters on that page at a particular segment of our lifetime.
When God's plan is complete, the old heavens will roll up as a scroll leaving the New Heavens which is God all in all.
.
Hi Newcomer............boy do I remember all them questions?
First of all, dear, the word "sky" represents yours and mine's first
heavens........these are in our hearts and minds........and take us
on a journey into the last eternal heaven where only what is of God
is. That is why it is written, "heaven "and" earth" shall pass away
BUT MY WORD shall endure.
Read Hebrews 1 and you'll see that God speaks to all of us thru
various ways and thru prophets, etc. but at the last days, He speaks
thru His SON, the Highest Ministry there is. It comes directly from
heaven.
You can use a concordance and type in the word "scroll" and you'll
find this several times thruout the scriptures, I think.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
The first heavens too were the work of HIS Hands
but they are not eternal, next verse here says they'll perish.
They will, as His Work continues in His people....
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail
:cloud9: I actually had a night vision of the realm of the natural stars sort of being opened and curling back like the folds of a heavy drape. A brilliant light was coming thru the folds. I had this when I first turned to the Lord 23 years ago, BEFORE I had ever read that part of scripture. It was stunning. Blessings....
Quote from: pauperest
How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below? It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)
Isaiah 34:4 says,
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Revelation 6:14 contains a similar prophecy:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
When a scroll is rolled up, after it has been read, its spindles cease rotating, once they meet. That pictures what happened to man's concept of the heavens, at the time of the scientific revolution. The starry heavens were no longer seen to be rotating, as they had for thousands of years, once men began to believe and understand it is the earth that rotates, not the sky. Like a scroll rolled together, the imagined diurnal revolutions of the stars and the firmament suddenly stopped, in the scientific revolution, when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth instead of the heavens.
The reference to the host of heaven falling like figs from a fig tree suggests the principle expressed by Newton's law of universal gravitation. Voltaire, in a popular treatise about Newton's theory, said that the heavenly bodies fall like apples. Thousands of years before Newton, Isaiah had written that the stars fall like
figs.
Doug
great questions pauperest :thumbsup:
good answers Taff , Card , Doug , Beloved , and Redletter
we/a few done a scroll/roll study years ago , I cannot remember
most of it , but like Taff I believe it was between the two covenants
also seeing Jesus on the cross between the two liar and thief
here is one place in Zech
also in rev and Hebrews and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............
Zec 5:1 ¶ Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
Zec 5:4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.
Zec 5:5 ¶ Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
seeing this as BABYLON ..... :dontknow:
Quote from: rosered
here is one place in Zech
also in rev and Hebrews and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............
Zec 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
My Bible is about 5.25 in by 8.5 in. There are 944 pages in the OT and 289 in the NT. This works out to an area of about 55,000 square inches. Compare with the area of the scroll, using 1 cubit = 16 inches, roughly the distance from elbow to knuckle, the scroll Zechariah described is about 51,000 square inches. But Zechariah's scroll was written on both sides. My Bible has rather small type; a Bible with larger type could easily be about the same area as that given by Zechariah.
The scroll of Zechariah's prophecy could represent the scriptures, which have become known around the entire earth. The scriptures were distributed among the Gentiles since ancient times, probably as early as the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. They have been translated into every language. The scriptures include a curse, for breaking the law.
Notice that those affected are those who break the commandments against stealing and against swearing falsely in God's name. Evidently the scroll of Zechariah tells about sin. The NT tells about the remedy for this curse; it is the death of Christ on our behalf.
Doug
Hi Rosey :HeartThrob:
Hi Doug
Just maybe It was vision, and those numbers 20 [ Redemption]Aand Ten[ Testimony\law] are figurative.
Like Rose I see the roll as the Law [ curse], within is the witness unto Life but Not the Law itself , the law remaining the Shadow.
:icon_flower:
I wonder how often the disciples got together to discuss parables and lessons that Jesus would teach. There were several accounts where it was clear that Jesus would "say" one thing, but mean something totally different. Like when he said "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ." Now, we've read the story, we know how it ends. But imagine only reading the first half of that for the first time yourself. Would "you" have known that it had nothing to do with forgetting to bring bread to eat for the trip?
Or when Jesus told the religious croud "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up." We read it after the fact and we have the help of John to explain to us what temple he was referring to. But even so, sometimes it feels like much discussion here is on the same plain as the discussions over things Jesus said way back then. They tried to reason the fact that it litterally took decades to build those buildings and they banged their heads against the wall trying to get a hold of what was being said. And yet none of it helped.
Why? Because they lacked relationship. Have you ever been around a person that you really understood, but yet no one else seemed to? This person would always be backed into a corner because they offended someone again and as you hear the story unwind, you can quickly see what your friend really meant, but the person he said it to, didn't know him as well as you do, so instead of receiving it as constructive, they instead, became offended at him for saying it.
It's much the same here. So many of us are on so many different levels of relationship with the Father that we come away with entirely different points of view on things. There is a pattern though. Nothing Jesus spoke of was meant to be taken literally. He wasn't talking about eating literal bread, he wasn't talking about the Pharisees containing literal leven, he wasn't talking about literally rebuilding the physical temple, everything he said and did was dimensional. We call it either metephorical or allegorical, but either way, taking it literally wasn't the intent or the purpose.
So, when seeing these things in Scripture, we have to lay down the literal, physical and natural renditions and "let" the Father reveal the spiritual to us. Why? Because it is the spiritual that has authority over the natural. There are laws of God that are just that, they're laws. Spirit over flesh is just one of those unchangable laws he's established as Truth.
Calling us to walk in the spirit was not a ploy so that we would be seen as flakey, or peculiar, but it's because "that's" where our authority is. It's not in the literal, physical realm of things. So what is this flying scroll? It is what God reveals to you it is. These prophesies and revelations are always about the finished work of Christ in redeeming man back to the Father. And there are many dimensions to those revelations. I love the idea that it is dealing with the old covenant and the new.
I also love the idea that it's depicting all the accusations held against me and the "both sides" reflect things in my past, and things in my future that I've done. And that document is an accumulation of charges held against me that God is judging with Righteousness and Mercy. Because of the blood of the Lamb, those charges have been dropped. My accusations held against me are erased.
Have you ever been so in love with someone you just can't shut up about them? In every conversation, at every opportunity, you just "look" for a seque that you can somehow change the conversation over to that person that you're just so stricken with. For me, that's what the Bible is. God is so in love with his son, that in every story, in every event, with every subject, he always finds a way to illuminate the redeeming power of His Son as Jesus restored our relationship back to the Father.
The flying scroll is just another way for God to brag about the fact that we are guilty, but found innocent through the power of the blood of the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
Quote from: nathanGod is so in love with his son, that in every story, in every event, with every subject, he always finds a way to illuminate the redeeming power of His Son as Jesus restored our relationship back to the Father.
.
enjoyed the wording Nat :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Amen, Nathan....... :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Doug on September 10, 2009, 11:12:34 PM
Quote from: rosered
here is one place in Zech
also in rev and Hebrews and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............
Zec 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
My Bible is about 5.25 in by 8.5 in. There are 944 pages in the OT and 289 in the NT. This works out to an area of about 55,000 square inches. Compare with the area of the scroll, using 1 cubit = 16 inches, roughly the distance from elbow to knuckle, the scroll Zechariah described is about 51,000 square inches. But Zechariah's scroll was written on both sides. My Bible has rather small type; a Bible with larger type could easily be about the same area as that given by Zechariah.
The scroll of Zechariah's prophecy could represent the scriptures, which have become known around the entire earth. The scriptures were distributed among the Gentiles since ancient times, probably as early as the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. They have been translated into every language. The scriptures include a curse, for breaking the law.
Notice that those affected are those who break the commandments against stealing and against swearing falsely in God's name. Evidently the scroll of Zechariah tells about sin. The NT tells about the remedy for this curse; it is the death of Christ on our behalf.Doug
Doug, how interesting..........I do know that "if" the Bible is NOT
"word" AND Spirit revelation given by God, that it is certainly a mess.
ha I dreamed about it one time long ago, and it confused me "then"
because I heard myself saying "I sense an enemy around here" AND
ALL I could see at that time was the Bible." There is a thread right now
on one of the other forums calling "Christianity" convoluted....and I
had to laugh at all the "convoluted" replies. It's a wonder the Spirit
gets thru to any of us, but HE does! Nothing but what the Spirit does
last.........except the Lord build the house, they that labour do so in
vain. And man at his best state is altogether vain. For man to do any
building, He must first of all "get the LORD in him" .......then he will
hear the Lord saying "Go on up and build." Now one must be "sure"
about this, for God tears down all except what He Himself builds.
Remember Esau saying "We will just build again." Well, work yourself
to death then. ha There is a way that "seemeth" right, but the end
thereof is what? Do not wake my love til HE please.
I hope we are not confusing our new co hort here.
It is all this confusing stuff that will pass away. Thank 'God" it's a promise.
good thoughts guys! :thumbsup:
I sure enjoy reading more these days than writing lol...
I sure dont remember alot of things these days , but I do remember being so very blessed when in that scroll/roll study with friends
oh it was like being seated with Christ in the heavenlies for sure :cloud9:
love to you all :HeartThrob: rose
Quote from: rosered on September 10, 2009
Zec 5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
seeing this as BABYLON .....
What is an ephah? It is a container having a known volume, probably one used for grain.
Ruth 2:17
So she gleaned in the field until even, and beat out that she had gleaned: and it was about an ephah of barley.
Ezekiel 45:10
Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.
A talent is a unit of weight.
2 Chronicles 9:13
Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;
Ephah = Volume measurement
Talent = Weight measurement
Together, these seem to indicate commerce. Is it not wickedness that people have made merchandise of the gospel? Perhaps Zechariah's prophecy about the woman in an ephah means that the church is involved in buying and selling, trading the gospel, seeking a profit. That is the wickedness, surely.
The two women who come out carry the ephah to Shinar, the land of Babylon, where things of this world, such as buying and selling, trade, merchandise, etc., belong.
The ephah, and the talent of lead, may be symbolic of commerce, and trade. The woman inside probably represents the church. But the church should not be involved with worldly commerce and business.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
The apostles provided the gospel to people of their generation free of charge. Money making schemes belong in Shinar, not the temple of God. The two women who emerge from the ephah have wings like a stalk, big and powerful. Powerful wings of eagles picture the gift of prophecy, in other scriptures. The wings of a stalk are similar. The wind in their wings probably represents the spirit of God.
Doug
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 09, 2009, 08:48:37 PM
OK, I'll try, but there are many things at work in this scripture.
Symbolism is at play here so know that the heavens inhabit the sky over your head and the high realm of the spirit within you. They rule what they inhabit.
Also, think of Gods plan for creation as already finished.
God's plan is like one giant, 7,000-year long Web page on his computer, the page is already a finished document and He can scroll up and down the Web page to anywhere in time. He lives in the NOW.
We are living out that plan as characters on that page at a particular segment of our lifetime.
When God's plan is complete, the old heavens will roll up as a scroll leaving the New Heavens which is God all in all.
SWEET! :goodpost:
...willieH :thumbsup:
My favorite commentator on Isaiah, J. A. Alexander, wrote the following paragraph in his introduction to Isa. 34.
Rabbi Moses Haccohen applies all this to the desolation of Edom in the days of Isaiah. Grotius, who adopts the same hypothesis, supposes these judgments to have been provoked by the aid with which the Edomites afforded to the Assyrians in their invasion of Judea, and to have been executed by the Etheopians. Schmidius also applies the chapter to the literal desolation of Edom in the days of Isaiah. Eusebius applies it to the day of judgment and the end of the world. Cyril makes the same application of vs. 1-4, but applies the rest to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish commonwealth, mystically represented here by Edom. Theodoret extends this explanation to the whole, in which he is followed by Cocceius. The rabbinical interpreters, with one exception which has been already mentioned, explain Edom as a mystical or figurative name for Rome, a rather Christendom, of which Rome was once the representative, and understand the chapter as predicting the future downfall of the Christian powers in the days of the Messiah. On this same rabbinical bypothess Vitringa rears a Christian exposition, by making Edom the emblem not of Christian but of Antichristian (i. e. Papal) Rome. So J. H. Michaelis, Gill, and others, most of whom however give the prophecy a greater latitude of meaning, as a general threatening of destruction to the enemies of Zion, but especially to Antichrist here typified as Edom. J. D. Michaelis regards the prophecy as yet to be fulfilled, and thinks it possible that the ancient Idumea may hereafter be possessed by an antichristian power whose destruction is here foretold. Rosenmuller and the other recent German writers regard the whole as an extravagant expression of revengeful malice by a writer long posterior to Isaiah. This gratuitous assumption is sustained by the usual empirical criticism, which, as we have seen before, may be employed on either side of any question. Hitzig, while complaining of the writer's diffuseness and verbosity, heaps up tautological expressions of contempt in his own peculiar style. It is worthy of remark, too, that the spirit of this chapter is extremely shocking to these pious unbelievers. Leaving these prejudiced interpretations out of view, the reference of the prophecy to Antichrist may be objected to, upon the ground that the sense which it gives to Edom is a forced one, not sustained by any usage or authority, except certain parts of the book of Revelation, which the older writers used as a key to the ancient prophecies, whereas these alone afforded the key to it. The simplest and most satisfactory view of the whole passage is the one proposed by Calvin, who regards it as a general threatening of destruction to the enemies of Zion, Edom being particularly mentioned, as an enemy of ancient Israel peculiarly inveterate and malignant, and thence used to represent the whole class of such enemies. Thus understood, the prophecy extends both to the past and future, and includes many particular events to which interpreters have erroneously endeavoured to restrict it, not excepting the destruction of Antichrist, as the greatest event of this kind which is foretold in prophecy. Compare the note on ch. 11:4.
[The earlier prophecies of Isaiah, Volume 1. By Joseph Addison Alexander. p. 555-556.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=v2NuAAAAIAAJ
I think that Edom in the prophecy likely represents the enemies of Zion; however Zion is symbolic of the church, Heb. 12:22. A "sword" came down on the religious leaders in the Reformation, and another one fell during the eighteenth century. This was the scientific revolution, when the heavens were "rolled up like a scroll." They ceased their revolutions. It was the earth that rotated, not the heavens. All the planetary spheres, and the rigid firmament, the old geocentric cosmology which they embraced has been abandoned.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on September 12, 2009, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: rosered on September 10, 2009
Zec 5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
seeing this as BABYLON .....
What is an ephah? It is a container having a known volume, probably one used for grain.
Ruth 2:17
So she gleaned in the field until even, and beat out that she had gleaned: and it was about an ephah of barley.
Ezekiel 45:10
Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.
A talent is a unit of weight.
2 Chronicles 9:13
Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;
Ephah = Volume measurement
Talent = Weight measurement
Together, these seem to indicate commerce. Is it not wickedness that people have made merchandise of the gospel? Perhaps Zechariah's prophecy about the woman in an ephah means that the church is involved in buying and selling, trading the gospel, seeking a profit. That is the wickedness, surely.
The two women who come out carry the ephah to Shinar, the land of Babylon, where things of this world, such as buying and selling, trade, merchandise, etc., belong.
The ephah, and the talent of lead, may be symbolic of commerce, and trade. The woman inside probably represents the church. But the church should not be involved with worldly commerce and business.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
The apostles provided the gospel to people of their generation free of charge. Money making schemes belong in Shinar, not the temple of God. The two women who emerge from the ephah have wings like a stalk, big and powerful. Powerful wings of eagles picture the gift of prophecy, in other scriptures. The wings of a stalk are similar. The wind in their wings probably represents the spirit of God.
Doug
good evaluation Doug !! :thumbsup: see that too .
the Lords warns many times of the gospel for profit schemes :sigh:
God bless ya bro ..... rose :icon_flower:
The way I see it is. The heavens are the transition between time, the realm we walk in, and eternity, the realm our spirits are tied into, which is outside of time, transcends time. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and had a vision. The higher the heaven, the further out of time and the further into eternity, transcending time and outside of time- like say Enoch, who was not, anymore, in time, after being caught up. Our father who art in heaven. The bride, coming down out of heaven, is the reality of the bride which is firm and substantial outside of time(Heb 12), thru the veil, becoming manifest due to the the overflowing revelation of God and restoration of heavenly Zion(Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven), filling the tabernacle of the Spirit with glory, which is His people, fitly joined together as living stones.
When the heavens roll back like a scroll, the veils will be rent for the whole kosmos (every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him) from the depths of the grave to the highest heaven..... all consciousness in every being will be awakened to His "appearing". Some will rejoice at the sight some will cry out for the proverbial rocks and caves to fall on them....as Adam and Eve did when God came around after they ate the fruit. Like so many disputes, the coin has two sides, the literal and the figurative fulfilled at one time, both true in eternity always in the I AM, TODAY, DAY, NOW of God but also having "times of fulfillment or fulness of times" administration according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
In the same way, the ages are the transition between time and eternity, those things which are "forever settled in heaven" and "foreknown from the foundation" manifesting according to the administration of the times, until all the times are fulfilled and thrown away like a garment.
"He that believes in me has passed from death unto life" "The time is coming AND NOW IS when the dead(all those who are not alive through believing) will hear the voice of the son of God and live"[in the now, present I AM(dawn)- and its manifestation at the end of this age, first resurrection(full noon)]. The time is coming when ALL THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND COME FORTH FROM THEIR GRAVES; those who did good to a ressurection of life, those who did evil to a ressurection of judgment(second resurrection GWT tribunal)(John 5:24-29).
The first resurrection is not automatic, it must be attained to (Phil 3:10-11, the exanastasis out-resurrection from amongst the dead) it is for the overcomers, who hear, wake up and stay awake until the end(of their time). We are to walk in the day and not let the thief(death)catch us sleeping or surfeiting.
If we walk(abide) in it(John 15)..... we already have this open heaven, as the veil is taken away "in Christ"(2 cor 3 15-18) and our "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:20-39 Our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water) through the veil, which is the veil of His flesh, torn for us at Calvary, having always been torn in eternity, but manifesting in time at the appointed time(in the fulness of time God sent forth His son(gal 4:4); foreknown from the foundation but manifest in these last time for you 1Pe1:20 Now, Once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself He 9:26)
But is is received as a seed and grows through sanctification of the Spirit when we,"Fix our eyes on Jesus", "Set not our affections on things below, but rather on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God" so that we can "experience" being "seated in Christ in the heavenly realms far above all principality and power" and "know the hope of our calling and the riches of His inheritance in the saints and the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe" and "taste the powers of the age to come" and "move onto maturity". Most of us are too busy splitting coins and arguing about things to do any of that tho.
So when He appears, in the fulness of time, which he will, most of us who are alive and remain will be foolish virgins without enough oil, because if you are not awake and loaded with oil "Today", in the "Now", having "entered into His rest" and the "finished work", you are not seeing, in the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the true knowledge of God, His "appearing" which is always upon us.
You wont rejoice to see it most likely, because you are calling on the rocks and caves to hide you already. Hiding from one another and hiding from koinonea(oneness, brotherly love, fellowship). Koinonea is the new garden. "If we walk in the light(wake up O sleepers) AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT (Arise from amongst the dead) then we have KOINONEA and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin(and the light of Christ will shine on you).
Those who sleep, sleep in the night, they will not hear the thief when he comes. The thief is death, and you have no idea when he will come, so you have to endure to the end, in walking in the light. The, as a child of light the day cannot take you as a thief.
Quote from: pauperest on September 09, 2009, 07:17:25 PM
How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below? It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)
Thank you
Obviously if our war is in the heavenlies per Ephesians 6 with the demonic strongholds that are holding men's minds in bondage and we're to be casting those down per 2Corinthians 10, then obviously this sky rolling back is the gates of Hell not prevailing and the Church advancing towards Revelation chpts 1, 11, 22, Romans 5, Ephesians 2, et. al., when the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, of His Christ, of His saints, and we reign between, to, within, from, encompassing, throughout, and above the ages of ages that we're creating with the Words of our mouths as the Word of Christ dwells in us richly in all wisdom and everything we're saying and everything we're doing is in the Name of Jesus, giving thanks to God the father thru Him per Colossians 3:12-17 so that we're the fullness of Him that filleth all in all per Ephesians 1:23, if we're obeying the Biblical principles that force the conformity with His image scenario of Romans 8 and Philippians 3 by practicing Luke 6:40, 1Corinthians 4:16, 1Corinthians 11:1, Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 5:1, Philippians 3:17, the book of Philemon, 1John 2:5-6, and I'll shut up. :HeartThrob:
Jeremiah 33:9 :bgdance:
Its quite simple: when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles stop rotating. And the heavens, in the old geocentric cosmology, revolved around the earth, but after the scientific revolution, those revolutions stopped; it was the earth that rotated instead.
This seems such an easy explanation, it is a wonder people have so much trouble understanding Isa. 34:4 and Rev. 6:14. Here are a few examples of the speculations.
Henry Madison Morris commented on Rev. 6:14,
The departing of the heavens like a scroll is more difficult to understand. There seem to be two possibilities. One is that the clouds of dust will gradually spread across the sky, making it appear that the sky is being "rolled up." However, the use of the graphic term "departed," seems to indicate something more spectacular even than this. The other possibility is that the earth's crust, highly unstable ever since the great Flood, will be so disturbed by the impacting asteroids, the volcanic explosions, and the worldwide earthquakes, that great segments of it will actually begin to slip and slide over the earth's deep plastic mantle.
Henry Madison Morris, The Revelation record p. 122-123.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=inbeiIub460C
John F. Walvoord wrote:
Revelation 6:12-17. After observing these stirring scenes, John next recorded observing the opening of the sixth seal, "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to the earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who can stand?'" (vv. 12-17)
It would be difficult to paint a scene more dramatic, more awful than that which is described in these verses. All the elements of catastrophic judgment are present: a great earthquake, the sun turning black, the moon becoming as blood, the stars of heaven falling like ripe figs, the heavens demonstrating major movements departing as a scroll, and on the earth every mountain and island moving. The picture of God's judgment on the world at this time is so dramatic that some recoil from it and attempt to interpret it in a less than literal sense. They would hold that this simply refers to political and social instability that will characterize the end time. However, the objections to a symbolic interpretation for which there is no norm or guiding principle are such that it is far better to interpret it in its literal sense.
John F. Walvoord, Every Prophecy of the Bible p. 557.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=BNxHnhfQIosC
The editors of The Quarterly Christian spectator in 1837 wrote on Isa. 34:4,
4. And all the host of heaven. The word host, Heb. tsau-bau, army, is often applied to the constellations of heaven--the stars as marshalled or arrayed in military array. (Comp. Job xxxviii. 32.) The heavenly bodies are often used to represent kings and princes. (Comp. ch. xxiv. 21.)--Shall melt away, venaumakoo. This figure, Vitringa supposes, is taken from the vulgar prejudice by which the stars of heaven appear to be crystals, or gems set in the azure vault of heaven, which may dissolve, or melt, and flow down by the application of heat. The word maukak, means to melt, to pine away; and means here, as Vitringa has supposed, to become liquid, and flow down. The sense is, that there should be great changes and destruction, that the princes and nobles, who had opposed God and his people, should be destroyed, as if the sparkling stars, like gems, should melt in the heavens, and flow down to the earth, and all should be extinguished.--And the heavens shall be rolled up as a scroll. The word scroll, here Sepher, means a roll, or a book. Books were made of parchment, leaves, &.c., and were rolled together, instead of being bound, as they are with us. The idea here is evidently figurative. The figure is taken from the vulgar notion, from what strikes the eye, that the heaven above us is an expanse, raukeea, (Gen. i. 8; Psa. civ. 2,) which is spread out, and which might be rolled together, and thus pass away, or the expanse cease to exist. It is possible, that there may be a reference here also to the fact, that in a storm, when the sky is filled with dark rolling clouds, the heavens seem to be rolled together, and to be passing away. The sense is, that there would be great destruction and ruin among those high in office and in power,-- a destruction, that would be represented only by the rolling up of the expanse over the head, and the destruction of the visible heavens, and their host, and by leaving the world to ruin, and to night.--And all their host shall fall down. That is, their stars; either by being as it were melted, or by the fact, that the expanse in which they are apparently located, should be rolled up and removed, and there being no fixtures for them, they should fall. In the violent concussion and agitations of rolling up the expanse, they would be shaken out of their places and fall to the earth. This is a most striking and beautiful figure. The same image here employed, occurs in Rev. vi. 13. One somewhat similar occurs in Virgil. Georg. I. 365, seq. The sense is, that there should be vast commotion among the nations which were the objects of the divine displeasure; that they should be consigned to ruin--ruin as certain, conspicuous, and as awful as if the stars of heaven were to fall, and vast commotion were seen in the sky, and all the vast expanse in which the stars are set, should be wrapped together and pass away.--As the falling of leaves off from the vine, &c. That is, in a storm, or when violently shaken. This too, indicates great commotion and agitation.
5. For my sword rushes intoxicated from heaven. A sword is an instrument of punishment, or vengeance, and is often so used in the scriptures, because it was often employed in capital punishments. This passage has given much perplexity to commentators, on account of the apparent want of meaning of the expression, that the sword should be bathed in heaven. Lowth reads it,
For my sword is made bare in the heavens;
following in this the Chaldee, which reads tithnallee, shall be revealed, or shall be made manifest, or bare. But there is no authority from MSS. for this change in the Hebrew text.
The Quarterly Christian spectator, June 1837. p. 224-226
http://books.google.ca/books?pg=PA230
J. Dwight Pentecost takes a similar approach. He wrote:
The 6th [seal] speaks of the great convulsions that will shake the whole earth. This may signify the condition in which every authority and power loses its control over men and anarchy reigns. Kelly says: "The persecuting powers and those subject to them will be visited judicially, and there will ensue a complete disruption of authority on the earth."
Things to come: a study in Biblical eschatology
By J. Dwight Pentecost
http://books.google.ca/books?id=2k6jJ12en1cC&pg=PA359
Charles Taze Russell said:
It will be of little consequence then that the ecclesiastical heavens (the religious powers, Papal and Protestant) will have rolled together as a scroll. (Isa. 34:4; Rev. 6:14) The combined religious power of Christendom will be utterly futile against the rising tide of anarchy when the dread crisis is reached. Before that great army "all the host of heaven [the church nominal] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll [the two great bodies which constitute the ecclesiastical heavens; viz., Papacy and Protestantism, as the two distinct ends of the scroll are even now rapidly approaching one another, rolling together, s we have shown]; and all their host shall fall down [fall off, drop out; not all at once, but gradually, yer rapidly] as the leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from a fig tree" (Isa. 34:4)...
The Battle of Armageddon
By Charles Taze Russell
http://books.google.ca/books?id=87JeIY4Cdu8C
Charles D. Alexander:
THE SIXTH SEAL
The description is not of the end of the world (though all judgments point to that final Assize) but the successive visitation of the divine vengeance on earth as God cleaves a path through history for His redeemed.
...
As usual John borrows his figures from the Old Testament. The dimming of sun and moon, the falling of stars, the removal of mountains and islands, the cry of the wicked for the hills to cover them - these are familiar Old Testament figures of the dissolution of empires, and the passing away of systems, powers, tyrannies.
Hengstenberg writes, "The shining of the heavenly lights is the symbol and the visible reflection of the grace of God. Hence its extinguishment by the sun and moon becoming dark, in storms and earthquakes, etc., is regarded as a prelude of severe judgments".
For the darkening of sun and moon as a figure of the eclipse or passing away of kingdoms, nations, or even churches, see Isaiah 24:23; "The moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed when the Lord shall reign in mount Zion ...." - a prophecy of the superior light of the gospel dimming into obscurity the lesser light of the Law.
...
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind" - v.13.
The fundamental passage from which these words are taken is Isaiah 34:4-5:
...
In chapter 34, the dissolution of the heavens and the falling of the stars is associated with the judgment of God on Jacob's traditional enemy, Esau, here presented under his prophetic name of Idumea (Edom- 'red' - symbolic of his career of murder and blasphemy against the people of God). (See verses 5-8). As usual however, Edom does not stand exclusively for itself, but as the representative of all that worldly power which hates the people of the Lord wherever it finds them.
...
The Book of Revelation is full of the symbolism of 'stars' - falling or otherwise. Christ is the bright and morning star (Rev. 22:16); He is the star which Balaam prophesied should arise out of Jacob (Num. 24:17); He holds in His right hand the seven stars which are the angels of the Seven Churches (Rev. 1:20); a star falls from heaven to the earth (Rev. 9:1) and is discovered to be none other than Satan (v.11). The Church is represented in chapter 12 as a woman with a crown of twelve stars. A great star falls in chapter 8 verses 10-11. Its name is Wormwood, and its function is to make bitter all rivers and fountains of water - no doubt meaning that false doctrine which poisons the sources of light, life and truth upon which the soul of man depends, even the preaching of the Word of God. We are seeing not a little of that today.
...
"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." - v.14
The rolling up of the heaven is a continuation of the symbolism of the preceding verse. The stars of heaven having fallen to the earth, that is, the rulers and tyrants of this world's system, the heaven itself, their region of power and dominance over the world comes to an end. The mountains and islands being moved out of their places represent the consequent disorder among the nation as the central, controlling power for the time being is destroyed.
How often in history could those words be spoken (as spoken they were by a great British statesman at the time of the Napoleonic wars)- "Roll up that map of Europe: It will not be needed again in our time"? How much of the world has been fundamentally changed since the 20th century came in, by two world wars, and the fall of great powers which only a short time ago controlled the whole world the rise of other nations and powers - as in Africa and Asia - never before known as significant territories on the face of the earth. As oft as this upheaval takes place on the face of the globe, so the principle of this Seal comes into action.
Charles D. Alexander
Revelation Spiritually Understood
http://www.allbygrace.com/alexrev047-06.html
Clarence Larkin wrote:
In Isa. 34:4 we read--"All the host of heaven (the stars) shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth from the vibe, and as falling fig from the fig tree," This corresponds to the "stars of heaven" of this "SEAL," and probably refers not to the constellations and heavenly bodies (stars), they are too far away to be affected by judgments on the earth, but to our own atmosphere, and to "meteors" and "shooting stars," similar to the "shooting stars" of November 13th, 1833, when they fell for 3 hours during the evening, and so terrified the people that they thought the end of the world had come.
The Book of Revelation: A Study of the Last Prophetic Book of Holy Scripture
By Clarence Larkin
http://books.google.ca/books?id=wdznQLc7EWAC
What a variety of opinions! :Sparkletooth:
Doug
Hi, I was given an 'understanding' just yesterday about the identity of the two women who carried off 'wickedness' to the Land of Shinar. Imgine my surprise to read these posts,today.
these two women were Elizabeth and Mary..Mothers of John the Baptist and Jesus...through the Holy spirit they were likened like Sarah,who birthed through the PROMISE and said,
send that woman away..her son shall not inherit. Typing those born from Jerusalem above and Hagar/bondage. Of men born of women..there was none more righteous than John who testified to the Lamb that takes away the sin [dross/evil]..And the call
come out of her my people..bespeaks the purifying and removal of dross by Jesus Christ[or the aving from sin/wickednes.
:2c:
:cloud9: I like it! Blessings..... :thumbsup:
The NASA picture of the day (for Sun 13 Sep) shows a colorful pattern that seems meaningless at first, but reveals a 3D teapot suspended in air, a few inches above a table top, when viewed in a certain way.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0909/teapotsirds_winfree.gif
The picture illustrates, I think, how prophecies of the Bible may at first seem meaningless, but their meaning may become clear when viewed with the right perspective. In this case, the eyes need to focus on a point behind the image. There is a similar image, revealing a shark, at this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stereogram_Tut_Random_Dot_Shark.png
Some explanation is provided here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram
In Rev. 6:14, John says "every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
Most interpreters try to explain this as some sort of cataclysmic event, such as a world-wide earthquake.
Jesus connected mountains with faith. He spoke of faith that could move mountains. [Mat. 17:20; 21:21]
I suggest that the mountains and islands referred to in John's prophecy are symbolic; they represent things that we can have faith in: God's promises. David compared God's righteousness to great mountains.
Psalm 36:6
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.
The prophecy of Rev. 6:14 says every mountain was moved out of its place; this suggests the promises of God are misinterpreted; many of the promises made to the church have been wrongly applied to unbelieving Jews! That is an example of the "mountains" being displaced from their proper positions.
Prophecies are also represented by mountains. The promises of God are prophecies! The gospel itself is a prophecy! And sure enough, most prophecies have been misinterpreted. This prophecy in Rev. 6:14 is an example; several failed interpretations were already noted.
Here is an interpretation of the prophecy by Peter Clarkin in 1849, that speaks of men moving "every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places," and so comes close to what I have suggested above.
Verse 14: "And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Such are the fatal effects when mankind fall into error, they have no pleasure in contemplating heavenly objects -- their ideas concerning the great work of creation are gross and absurd, and so are their notions of redeeming love. Converse with such on the providential care and goodness of God, they will admit it, but it affords them no comfort. Speak to them on the subject of justifying faith in Jesus Christ, the influence of the Holy Spirit, the new birth, and they have no conception of such things. Such conversation is insipid to them. Such knowledge is to them like a scroll, or sheet of paper, when it is rolled together.
The application of the latter clause of the verse, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places, may be understood when it is considered that the principles of popery removed by degrees every obstacle in its way, and as it grew in power, it set up kings and dethroned them; it absolved subjects from their allegiance, and granted pardon to the rebellious; it changed even the commandments of God, by leaving out the second, to make way for image worship, and divided the tenth into two, to preserve the number; it made the scriptures of truth of no effect by its traditions; it made the canon or decree of a general council of more validity than any gospel authority; it set up the pope's infalibility in opposition to Him who is Supreme Judge; it condemned the righteous and justified the ungodly; it put the Redeemer into lymbus patrum, when the avaricious road to purgatory was discovered; it substituted the sacrifice of the mass in the room of that atoning sacrifice which was to take away the sins of the world; and thus it gradually removed every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places, and placed man's salvation in the merits of the church.
Reflections on Revelations
By Peter Clarkin. Geo. C. Rand, Boston. 1849. p. 50.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ggYOAAAAYAAJ
Saying of the ritualistic Catholic worship, "it gradually removed every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places" is quite perceptive, and captures the true meaning of John's prophecy, IMO. During the flood, the tops of the mountains appeared as islands; they must have inspired hope to those on the ark. Every island is a submerged mountain. :Sparkletooth:
Doug
wow!
Good posts Doug, Thanks for sharing! Blessed me.
Sheila
Revelation 6:14-16
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
If the mountains are promises in the Bible, what are the dens and rocks people hide in?
These are dens and rocks in mountains that have been moved from their places. They are displaced from their true positions.
Mountains represent promises of God. People want to be included in the promises of God, which they don't understand. Thus they say, "fall on us," to the rocks of displaced mountains. They want to wear the label of Christian, without living as Jesus taught, and doing what Jesus said.
Some trust in their baptism as an infant. Is not this a "displaced mountain"? The waters of baptism picture the death of the old man, and rising up to a new life in Christ. Baptism was never intended for infants. John the Baptist told Jews to repent, and bring forth fruits of repentance. Can infants repent?
In the NT, the Mosaic covenant was associated with Mount Sinai; the Olivet Discourse of Jesus is associated with the Mount of Olives. The temple is associated with Mount Zion, and since the church is the new temple of God, it too is called Mount Zion (or Sion), in Hebrews 12:22.
Zechariah said the Mount of Olives will be cleaved in the midst, and half of it moves to the north, and half to the south, forming a valley between. [Zech. 14:4] IMO, the two halves of the mountain represent preterism and dispensationalism, which misinterpret the prophecy Jesus gave to his disciples on the Mount of Olives. This is an example of a mountain being figuratively moved out of its position. And John's book of Revelation was written when he was on the Island of Patmos, Rev. 1:9, so perhaps the island of Patmos could represent the prophecies of the book of Revelation. It too has been figuratively moved from its position; for example, dispensationalists deny that most of the prophecies in Revelation apply to the church in the present age. They claim that from Rev. 4 to the end of chapter 18 applies to Jews, in a future tribulation.
Notice how dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside interpreted the prophecy about the heavens being rolled up as a scroll, in Rev. 6:14:
After the true church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, there will be a vast host of unconverted ecclesiastics left behind; thousands of church dignitaries, both Protestant and Romanist, who, though looked upon as guides in things spiritual, shall be manifested as utterly bereft of divine life--professional clergymen who, despite their pretentions and exalted calling, are simply natural men intruding into spiritual things, like the Philistines of old who dwelt in the land of Canaan and gave their name, Palestine, to the whole thing as though it belonged of right to them, while all the time they were unwarrented intruders of Egyptian descent. These are the stars who will be hurled from their places of power and eminence in that awful day of the wrath of the Lamb, and who, apostatizing from the last vestiges of Christianity, will soon become leaders in the worship of Antichrist.
Thus the heavens, the ecclesiastical powers of every description, will depart as a scroll when it is rolled up. The whole fabric of Christendom will be wound up as something obsolete and out of date.
Lectures on the Book of Revelation, By H. A. Ironside. 1919. p. 117-118.
http://rarebooks.dts.edu/viewbook.aspx?bookid=1481
Ironside supposed that the events in Rev. 6 apply to a future era. These teachings rob the church of the light that prophecy provides, which reveals how God's plan has been working out in history. I suggest the heavens departing as a scroll that is rolled together applies to the rise of modern science, and the demise of the old cosmology in which the rigid sky revolved around the earth each day. A scroll that is rolled together stops rotating, and that is precisely what happened; the revolutions of the heavens ceased, and the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth.
Dispensationalists like Ironside move the "mountains" and "islands" of prophecy; they misinterpret the prophecies meant for the church today, and apply them to Jews in the future! And IMO, preterists make a similar mistake. They move mountains and islands out of their positions too, when they say those prophecies refer to Jews in the first century AD!
Doug
:cloud9: OR........as the heavens represent Christ's "celestial" flesh/understanding, which is also represented as the second set of curtains or veil that is between the inner court and Holy of Holies (cherubim, which were woven into the veil, were heavenly creatures), this "scroll" was "rolled up" because it was rent.
This "scroll" that had no beginning and no end, is/was the "garment" of life, that was rent, that was SHED forth (as a garment was dropped, ie. like Elijah) from Him on the day of Pentecost, and on every "day" of Pentecost since, ie. when someone receives His garment. He has life to give, but the Father has life everlasting.
This "garment" too is destined to be rent because it is in part, designed to bring us to the Father, that where He is, we might be also, not figuratively by dispensation, but literally by appropriation. God the Father is IN Christ, who is IN us, reconciling all men unto Himself. Christ acts as veil or covering for the Father. He is the mediator between God and man, ie. the covering that both keeps from seeing the Father, and shows us the Father, in due season.
Which is why all those that are not bondslaves of His LOVE (firstfruits) want to be hid from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, which is in the Holy of Holies, where the Father sits, and which is/will be visible once the veil is completely rent again in a people, a firstfruits company.
The dens, ie. something hollowed out (by His hand) to contain something (inner court; ones of the now spiritual priesthood/Pentecost). The rocks/letter (outer court; ones still in Passover/literal understanding of the letter only). Neither will be able to provide excuse in that day, as once those who have NOT put off THEIR garments (our flesh is the garment of His Spirit within), but instead have been swallowed up of immortality, it will be evident who has gone on unto perfection (to know the Father).
And so it was written, to rend your hearts (Christ in your heart, the hope of glory) and not your garments (natural bodies thru death).
How is He rent? By the Father's hand as we have been obedient to lay down the titles, giftings, offices, that we gained thru Christ and come out into the wilderness to die/be rent/made of no reputation/take on the image of sinful flesh. No man can come to the Father, except the Father call him. Blessings....
How wonderful He is to His faithful Cardinal.
Come out of her my people.
He brings us out so he can bring us in.
For the mantle of God is no longer upon man but within.
When we see Him we shall be like Him.
Card! It's amazing!
:cloud9: AMEN Beloved Servant :myahoo:
Paul understood the heavens rolling up as a scroll as when he stated WHEN THAT WHAT IS PERFECT IS COME THAT WHAT IS IMPERFECT IS DONE AWAY WITH.
The key to this is in the OT where we see the dimensions of the roll (10x20) that duplicate the imperfect Holy Room of the tabernacle where we see in part versus as a child in the outer-court with no vision
However when that what is perfect is come (The Holiest 10x10) that what is imperfect (10x20) is done away with
The 10x20 room is where Satan still presents himself with the sons of God (see Job) but the Holiest is where God appears and anything less than perfect such as the flesh that is not under linen (righteousness) with the mind of Christ (the High Priest head piece) is destroyed .........
The 10x20 is a picture of today and the church where Satan gets his authority over the masses from the voices coming from the pulpits who make up the tail of the dragon and are the prophets who teach lies also described in the OT.
All of the "revelation revealed" from the Book of Revelations are somewhere in the OT between the Law, Exodus the Prophets and the Psalms
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Amen Doug......perfect there and complete are the same. The in-part realm is incomplete because they do not yet have the Father, which is why it says you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son. This is why the in-part realm is to end. It's Jesus/outer court, Christ/inner court, and Lord/Holy of Holies.
Also, Noah was 600 when the end of all flesh came before Him/Father. It's been 6000 years from Adam and the end of all flesh has come before Him before in the inner court before the veil, as we've progressed during the 2 days or 2000 years assigned to the inner court realm. When the sons of God came before God and Satan was among them, it's the same pattern as all flesh coming before Him (who is "in" the Holy of Holies in the pattern).
Jesus said, tell Herod that fox that today and tomorrow (2 days/2000 years) I will do cures and cast out devils, but the 3rd day I will be perfected/completed. Blessings....
A great variety of interpretations has been proposed for John's prophecy of the heavens rolling up as a scroll, all of which "move the mountains and islands out of their places," as they misinterpret the prophecies that the mountains and islands represent. Here are some more examples.
Thomas Rawson Birks
The following clauses may be compared with Isaiah xxxiv. 4. Rev. vi. 12.
"And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll, and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig-tree.
"And lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig-tree casteth her untimely figs when it is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heavens departed as a scroll, when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
These passages throw equal light upon the meaning of the terms used by St. Peter, whether they refer to literal, or figurative and political changes. The heaven, which is rolled together like a sheet of parchment, cannot denote the starry spaces, but the visible firmament, the blue expanse, which is spread out "as a tent to dwell in." When the stars fall to the earth, as a fig-tree casteth her figs in a mighty wind; the words must denote an atmospheric convulsion, in which the lights of the sky seem to be dashed violently to and fro, till they disappear; for no one will suppose that all the suns and planets of science can be precipitated upon the earth. The elements, in 2 Peter iii. 10, 12, answer to "the host of heaven" in Isaiah; and their melting with fervent heat implies the sudden disappearance of these landmarks of the sky from the senses of mankind, amidst the lurid gloom or fiery splendour that will seize on the lower firmament.
But what meaning are we to assign to the statement, that "the earth and the works therein shall be burned up?" The earth, Mr. Brown argues, as distinguished from the works therein, doubtless means the body of the globe, in contrast with all that adorns its surface. "If this is burnt up, it must be something more searching and fundamental than that process of burning, to which some would debase this magnificent prediction." But the words really prove just the reverse, that the solid substance of the globe is not spoken of, but its surface only. The works therein, not thereupon, are to be burned. We may infer that the earth is viewed as an extended surface. This indeed is the constant usage of Scripture, both in the Old and New Testament. Hence the threefold division of the universe--things in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth. It is plainly regarded as a visible expanse, capable of being inhabited by man, with its hemisphere of light above, and of darkness below. The universal language of our senses is borrowed, to express a moral and spiritual truth, no less comprehensive and universal. To introduce the notion of the globular and solid substance of the earth, interpolates an idea, plainly foreign from the scope of the texts, which destroys all the force and symmetry of the description. The burning of the earth below, the rolling up of the heavens like a vesture, and the falling of the stars from heaven to earth, are three consistent parts of one sublime picture, and exclude all reference to the solid substance of our planet, or to the heavens of science. The earth means that habitable surface, spread out for the use of man, of which the figurative foundations have been laid firmly by the hand of God, in those laws which regulate the human senses, and the structure of the solar system.
Outlines of unfulfilled prophecy, an inquiry into the Scripture testimony respecting the 'good things to come'.
Thomas Rawson Birks, 1854. p. 254.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CJYCAAAAQAAJ
Robert H. Mounce
Isaiah spoke of the starry host falling like withered leaves from the vine (Isa 34:4). It is one of the signs that immediately precede the coming of the Son of man (Matt 13:25-26). The falling of stars upon the earth could mean but one thing to the ancient--the end had come. The sky will recede like an unrolled papyrus scroll that, should it break in the middle, would roll quickly back on either side. The removing of every mountain and island from its place has no parallel in apocalyptic writing. It may have been suggested by Nah 1:5 ("the hills melt away") or Jer 4:24 ("the mountains ... were quaking; all the hills were swaying").
We need not expect that these cataclysmic events will take place in a completely literal sense, although whatever they depict is sufficient to drive people in terror to the mountains, where they plead for death rather than face the wrath of the Lamb (vv. 15-17)--an unlikely consequence if they symbolize no more than social and political upheavals. Elsewhere in Revelation people are pictured as so adamant in pursuing their own goals that neither demonic plague (9:20) not scorching heat is sufficient to make them repent. Nothing short of the awesome dissolution of the world itself will strike terror to the heart of people in the last days.
The Book of Revelation
By Robert H. Mounce p. 151.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=6FAookts4MUC
Peter Pett
For 'the heaven removed as a scroll' and 'as a fig tree casts its unripe figs' see 'all the host of heaven shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll, and all their host shall fade away as the leaf fades from the vine, and as a fading leaf from a fig tree' (Isaiah 34.4). This latter specifically refers to God's judgment on Edom and their neighbours, so that it was not seen as literally happening, and did not refer to the end times. It was metaphorical for the devastation they would suffer.
The apocalyptic language in Ezekiel 32 (especially compare verses 7 and 8 with 9 and 10) has specifically in mind the downfall of Pharaoh and of Egypt at the hands of the Babylonians, including the surrounding nations. It is then followed by a description of the fate of other nations. There is nothing to indicate that it is specifically related to 'the day of the Lord' or to a period called 'the end times'. These nations did suffer these fates historically and we must hesitate before we assume that fulfilment in history is so irrelevant that we must push everything into the context of the 'end times'.
Isaiah 13 - 14 (see 13.10, 13) refers to the downfall of Babylon, and while the language is extravagant it is specifically said to be by the Medes (13.17) which was historically correct, but in this case there is a movement on to the end times for in 13.19-22 the prophet 'sees' beyond the times in which he lives to the final destruction of Babylon, when it will be destroyed to rise no more. From its earliest history (Genesis 11.9) Babylon was a symbol greater than itself, (like Rome later), and therefore its final doom was to be total. In the end the prophet knew that this was what must happen. What he did not know was when or how.
Isaiah 34 (see verse 4) refers to the downfall of Edom and 'all the nations' i.e. the nations around Edom who have troubled Israel, specifically the people of His 'curse', assigned to destruction (34.5) as is evidenced by the fact that the rest of 'the nations' do not take part but are called in to witness the event - 34.1. While it refers to the day of the Lord's vengeance it is revenge on Edom for their behaviour towards Israel (34.8). It is not said to be in the end times, nor is there any reason for suggesting that it is (except to those who quite unreasonably put ALL prophecy in the last days).
Commentary on the Book of Revelation
By Peter Pett
http://www.geocities.com/revelationofjohn/index.html
Joseph A. Seiss
5. "And the heaven recoiled as a scroll rolling itself together." We have here the same particular heaven. With the prodigiess already named, the sky folds upon itself. The fastenings which held it outstretched, are loosed in the general convulsion, and it rolls up. Great, massive, rotary motion in the whole visible expanse, is signified, as if it were folding itself up to pass away forever. Some tell us that this never can literally happen, and that we are not therefore to expect it to be fulfilled in any physical fact. But why not? Does not Peter, in a plainly literal passage, tell us of just such commotions in the aerial heavens? Does he not say, in so many words, that they shall be loosed (***) and move with such a noisy rushing, after the manner of a tempest? And so significant and awful is to be the nature of the fact, that nearly all the prophets have taken notice of it, and foretell the same in language which we must monstrously pervert to understand in any other than a literal sense.
The Apocalypse: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation
By Joseph A. Seiss, p. 155.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=xHlNR_Pj7vUC
Uriah Smith
And the Heaven Departed as a Scroll. In this event our minds are turned to the future. From looking at the past and beholding the word of God fulfilled, we are now called to look at events before us, which are no less sure to come. Here is our position unmistakably defined. We stand between the 13th and 14th verses of this chapter. We wait for the heavens to depart as a scroll when it is rolled together. And these are times of unparalleled solemnity and importance; for how near we may be to the fulfillment of these things we know not.
This departing of the heaven as a scroll is what the evangelists call in the same series of events, the shaking of the powers of the heavens. Other scriptures give us further particulars concerning this prediction. From Heb. 12:25-27, Joel 3:16, Jer. 25 : 30-33, Rev. 16:17, we learn that it is the voice of God as he speaks in terrible majesty from his throne in Heaven, that causes this fearful commotion in earth and sky. Once the Lord spoke, when, with an audible voice, he declared to his creatures the precepts of his eternal law; and the earth shook. He is to speak again, and not only the earth will shake, but the heavens also. Then will the earth "reel to and fro like a drunkard;" it will be "disolved," and "clean broken down;" Isa. 24; mountains will move from their firm bases; islands will suddenly change their location in the midst of the sea; from the level plain will arise the precipitous mountain; and rocks will thrust up their ragged forms from earth's broken surface; and while the voice of God is reverberating through the earth, the direst confusion will reign over the face of nature.
Then will the world's dream of carnal security be effectually broken. Kings who, intoxicated with their own earthly authority, have never dreamed of a higher power than themselves, now realize that there is One who reigns King of kings; and the great men behold the vanity of all earthly pomp, for there is a greatness above that of earth; and the rich men throw their silver and gold to the moles and bats, for it cannot save them in that day; and the chief captains forget their little brief authority and the mighty men their might; and every bondman, who is in the still worse bondage of sin, and every freeman, all classes of the wicked, from the highest to the lowest, join in the general wail of consternation and despair. They who never prayed to Him whose arm could bring salvation, now raise an agonizing prayer to rocks and mountains to bury them forever from his presence. Fain would they now avoid reaping what they by a life of lust and sin had sown. Fain would they now shun the fearful treasure of wrath which they have been heaping up for themselves against this day. Fain would they bury themselves and their'catalogue of crimes in everlasting darkness. And so they fly to the rocks, caves, caverns, and fissures which the broken surface of the earth now presents before them. But it is too late. They cannot conceal their guilt nor escape the long-delayed vengeance.
"It will be in vain to call,
Rocks and mountains on us fall,
For His hand will find out all,
In that day."
The day which they thought never would come, has at last taken them as in a snare; and the involuntary language of their anguished hearts, is, "The great day of his wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand?" Before it is called out by the fearful scenes of this time, we pray you, reader, give your most serious and candid attention to this subject.
Many now affect to despise the institution of prayer. But at one time or another all men will pray. Those who will not now pray to God in penitence, will then pray to the rotks and mountains in despair. And this will be the largest prayer-meeting ever held. As you read these lines think whether you would like to have a part therein.
Adventists are now in the minority; but they will then be in the majority; for all the world will be Adventists. But alas! with the great mass their belief will come too late to do them any good.
Thoughts, critical and practical, on the book of Revelation
By Uriah Smith p. 150.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=pYUYAAAAYAAJ
Two of the authors quoted above, Birks and Seiss, connect Isaiah's prophecy of the heavens departing as a scroll to the apostle Peter's prophecy about the heavens passing away "with great noise." [2 Pet. 3:10] The heavens passing away with a great noise cannot refer to the heavenly bodies literally passing away, because there is no noise in space. It is completely silent up there, because there is no air. Peter, I think, refers to the demise of the old geocentric cosmology. That was accompanied by great commotion, and the rise of skepticism. Many abandoned their faith, because they supposed the Bible supported the flawed cosmology. The church was discredited because it had opposed Galileo and the heliocentric theory.
Doug
.
Doug, I can't "explain" it but He has given us an "understanding"
........the "great noise" is a "mature word" .....it will happen in
us as God takes us from that which "passes away" to that which
does not.
Quote from: Redlettervoice
Doug, I can't "explain" it but He has given us an "understanding"
........the "great noise" is a "mature word" .....it will happen in
us as God takes us from that which "passes away" to that which
does not.
The "great noise" in 2 Peter 3:10 is the word "rhoizédon" in Greek.
Original Word: ῥοιζηδόν
Transliteration: rhoizédon
Phonetic Spelling: (hroyd-zay-don')
Short Definition: crashing
Some translations put "roar."
It can be compared, I think, with the noise mentioned by Joel. In Joel's prophecy of the locusts, the noise of the locusts is compared to the noise of chariots. "Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array." [Joel 2:5]
Chariots in Joel's time were probably quite noisy. Their wheels and axles, and the sound of horses, would make a loud, clattering sound, along with squeaking noises. The point is, there is no intelligence in it. This is how the apostle Peter describes the "noise" and the controversy about the Bible that was generated following the scientific revolution. People thought the Bible supported the geocentric cosmology, with its rigid firmament revolving around the earth. In the "enlightenment" men embraced science and abandoned faith. They failed to notice that the cosmology of the OT had become corrupted in the 2nd century BC.
Doug
2 Kings 6;17
Then Elisha prayed 'O'Lord open his eyes that he may see."
Then the Lord opened the servants eyes; and he looked
and saw..the hills full of horses and chariots of fire
all around Elisha
Hosea 11 They will follow the Lord, He will roar like a lion.
when He roars the children will come trembling from the west
:cloud9: Amen Sheila......surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses he was.....the Lord utters His voice, who shall hear it? Some said it thundered, ie. things shaking the heavens, too. Blessings....
In John's prophecy, the events of the sixth seal occur on "the great day," that elsewhere is called the "day of the Lord."
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The events of the sixth seal include the heaven departing "as a scroll when it is rolled together."
The events referred to in the prophecy of the apostle Peter, that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise," also occur in the day of the Lord.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
In the previous verses, Peter said that a "day" with God is as a thousand years, and "a thousand years" is as a day [2 Peter 3:8].
Since these events both occur on the day of the Lord, it is an excellent reason for supposing these prophecies refer to the same event.
Another prophecy that may refer to these same events is the prophecy of the 2,300 days, in Daniel 8:14. The angelic messenger in this verse says that after this period of time, the sanctuary would be "cleansed." The sanctuary, in the context, refers to heaven, the "place of God's sanctuary." The little horn of the goat grows tall, up to the stars, and casts stars to the earth, and the host of heaven, and tramples them.
The prophecy of the heavens being cleansed or "made right" after 2,300 days describes the scientific revolution. The rigid firmament, and planetary spheres of the ancient cosmology were swept away like old cobwebs, and men everywhere understood that the earth revolves on its axis, not the sky.
Daniel's vision was given in the third year of Belshazzar, probably around 550 BC. The time specified in Dan. 8:14 was 2,300 days, or "evening mornings," which are best interpreted as years. They began when the words were spoken, as the angel said "Unto 2,300 days, ... " No other start date is valid. Counting 23 centuries from the date of the vision, the period ends in the mid-eighteenth century. This was the very time when the old geocentric cosmology was abandoned; the work of Isaac Newton was translated into English and French about that time. That period is called the "Enlightenment" by philosophers. It was perhaps the most significant event in the history of man, since the resurrection of Jesus!
As Peter said, the day of the Lord comes like "a thief in the night." A thief in the night works when no one is aware of it; he escapes with his loot, without anyone noticing his presence. That is how the day of the Lord has come. It is here already, and spans several centuries!
Doug
2Co 3:14-18 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. (15) But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; (16) but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (18) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
I think there are many layers of veils. The carnal mind. Traditions of men. The lusts of the flesh. The arrogance of gnostic(knowledge based) religion. The foreskin of the heart that must be circumcised before we can receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God.
We have a new and living way within the veil having "Our hearts sprinkled clean(a type of repentance and faith...purge me with hyssop and I will be clean, the bitter herb of Psalm 51 was the way they applied the blood to the door post so that the death angel passed over) and our bodies washed with pure water (the washing of the water with the word, progressive sanctification). Even as the water actually parted for them, and they were sanctified(set apart...let my people go that they may worship me). In that sanctification they were able to move on toward the "rest" of God. yet they were sanctified again in the wilderness before they could "enter His rest", i.e. the "finished work" and the "promised possession."
Going with the type of the tabernacle, when the glory spilled out at the dedication by Solomon all the Levites fell out under the weight of glory, like Daniel and Ezekiel fell in the presence of the glory. At the appearing/coming of the Lord when the veil is rent, I believe the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea. All the veils that cover all the nations and peoples will be rent, an administration suitable to the fulness of time.
Isa 25:7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
We who are abiding "in Christ", in the "new and living way" of repentance and faith and progressive sanctification by grace through faith in the power of the Spirit -are already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms and will be revealed as sons at the Day of the Age. Knowing it doesn't qualify anyone for it tho. It is for the overcomers. Those who endure to the end "in Christ", which is simply the meekness, love, holiness, forgiveness and humility of the Lord.
Hello eaglesway
I liked your post a lot :thumbsup:
Knowing that the Word made flesh 2000 years ago will be no different than the Word that becomes flesh first sown by Jesus into our hearts manifested again just as it was the first time does that not mean that the same knowledge of the Scriptures known by Jesus will be known by us?......... if not would we not have a contradiction instead being in agreement with God as Jesus always was?
That being said what about all those likenesses of spirt such as the eagle that many Christians like to identify themselves with........ when we have the same knowledge as the Lord will we still see ourselves as flesh tearing fowls whose young drink blood?
Or will we do away with all ego in order to be prepared to be shepherds whom will both care and love the sheep that will graze in the promised land while the wolves get carried away by "wings of a great eagle" to the wilderness to die?
I remember fathers of our faith such as Bill Britton who was so far ahead at his time that he like some here was an outcast with a bad label yet today if he looked back would probably shake his head and wonder how he managed to write his "eagle saints arise".
Do we really want to be the one to carry the woman (church) off to the wilderness where she is fed doctrines of lies by the serpent or do we want to be separated and caught up to righteousness?
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on September 16, 2009, 11:22:27 AM
Hello eaglesway
I liked your post a lot :thumbsup:
Knowing that the Word made flesh 2000 years ago will be no different than the Word that becomes flesh first sown by Jesus into our hearts manifested again just as it was the first time does that not mean that the same knowledge of the Scriptures known by Jesus will be known by us?......... if not would we not have a contradiction instead being in agreement with God as Jesus always was?
That being said what about all those likenesses of spirt such as the eagle that many Christians like to identify themselves with........ when we have the same knowledge as the Lord will we still see ourselves as flesh tearing fowls whose young drink blood?
Or will we do away with all ego in order to be prepared to be shepherds whom will both care and love the sheep that will graze in the promised land while the wolves get carried away by "wings of a great eagle" to the wilderness to die?
I remember fathers of our faith such as Bill Britton who was so far ahead at his time that he like some here was an outcast with a bad label yet today if he looked back would probably shake his head and wonder how he managed to write his "eagle saints arise".
Do we really want to be the one to carry the woman (church) off to the wilderness where she is fed doctrines of lies by the serpent or do we want to be separated and caught up to righteousness?Blessings
Doug
Doug! Doug! Doug! "Where did you get "that?" Explain it will ya?
Isn't she "nourished"
from the "face" of the serpent? ............she brought forth the "manchild."
Now the manchild rules with a "rod" of "iron" ..........
Think with me a moment..........does the ROD of Iron lead to "the love
of God?"
What think ye of this? ............
The church does bring forth the manchild who goes on into the promise land while the the church goes back into the wilderness where she is nourished (fed) from the face of the serpent (satan) who does so by speaking through his tail who are the prophets that teach lies (false prophets, teachers, pastors etc )......THE CHURCH GOING BACK INTO THE WILDERNESS IS THE SAME THING AS THE PRIESTS WHO FALL BACK TO THE OUTER COURT BECAUSE THEY WENT ASTRAY!!!!!!
Tell me sis....... would you rather go to the wilderness or to the promise land (heaven) ????? ....... the same thing with the man child going to heaven is seen with the son of the ass that Jesus rides back BECAUSE JESUS IS DIRECTING HIS STEPS into Jerusalem VERSUS the mother who is the church that even though she was loosed IS to stubborn, proud and cannot be taught CONSEQUENTLY SHE WAS NOT taken by Jesus back into Jerusalem
Ezekiel 39:17
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
This is just like eagles who tear flesh to feed their young who drink blood (that is a sin ) mouth to mouth and are unclean animals who we are not to touch let alone be fed by
You have heard something that is a lie for so long that you have accepted it as truth :thumbdown:.............. you need to reconsider your position here sis....... if you do not believe me at this time go study the law because drinking blood is a sin !!!!!
If you first heard it in the church it is probably a lie !!!
Blessings
Doug
Hi Doug , the only exception to the rule is this , Jesus born of woman under the Law / Mary symbolic of that and concieved by the Holy Spirit
this is bringing in the first Man Child / Fristfruits to God in Rev :thumbsup:
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
the hard saying stumbled many Jesus is the the rock of offence and stumbling block for many born as slaves under the law of moses / servitude
it was the declaring of the New and living way , by the Spriit
the blood /life in the blood is the NEW WINE of the new covenant .. and the flesh of Christ is the Bread of heaven , turning the hearts of stone to bread / Jesus Flesh /heart
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
just helping sista Red out here .. :icon_flower: hope you dont mind
Amen Rosered........ the life (spirit) is in the blood and the soul is of the body (why Paul said there are celestial bodies (souls) and terrestrial bodies (our "earth suits")
That is exactly why we are not to drink any other blood (life) than that of Jesus.
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: I can see what you're saying Doug; the 'church' IS going back into the outer court, if they do not press in AT THIS TIME to go into the Holy of Holies presence of the Father. He has shown me this too. Blessings.....
:cloud9: I can see what you're saying Doug; the 'church' IS going back into the outer court, if they do not press in AT THIS TIME to go into the Holy of Holies presence of the Father. He has shown me this too. Blessings.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSIs1MHdFQY
:cloud9: Amen, and the way of the Lord IS being prepared as His Spirit moves the stones away from our hearts........Blessings....
Does heaven represent "rulers," and earth a "nation" in Isaiah?
In an article available at: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/som/5_18.htm (http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/som/5_18.htm)
on "Heaven & Earth and the Law Have Passed Away," David B. Curtis says,
In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:
Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;
The verses cited don't support the claims made about them by Curtis. Instead, God proclaims, for the whole universe to hear, that his own children have rebelled against him! "Heaven and earth" simply means "everyone," or "all things;" the world. There is no indication at all that rulers and people are meant by heaven and earth.
Later in the article, Curtis quotes Isaiah 24:3-6 and 19-20, and says:
What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. ... Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.
Neither do those verses support his claims, IMHO. It is not at all clear that "earth" refers to Israel in these verses. The chapter follows a prophecy about the judgment of Tyre, and may simply be a continuation of the previous prophecy.
Curtis quotes Isaiah 34:4-5, which is from a chapter about the judgment of Edom.
All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
Curtis comments:
This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally. God says, "His sword will be bathed in heaven," then explains what He means by saying, "It shall come down on Edom." The NIV puts it this way, "My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed." So, God speaks of His sword being bathed in heaven, meaning the nation Edom, not the literal heaven. Edom shall be rolled up like a scroll.
So, from these statements by Curtis, Israel is represented by the earth, and Edom is represented by heaven. But why would Edom be represented by heaven? That would be very strange!
These conclusions by Curtis contradict his previous claim that heaven represents "rulers" and earth a "nation."
In the journeys of the Israelites after they came out of Egypt, the nation of Edom was a barrier to them, on their way to the promised land. The king of Edom refused to allow the Israelites to pass through their land. After that, the people of Edom were traditional enemies of Israel. [Numbers 20:14-21]
In chapter 34, Isaiah refers to Edom in a figurative way, as representing the enemies of the church; those who hinder Christians from obtaining their promised inheritance. The sword of God comes down on them!
Preterism and dispensationalism, along with other "isms" that hinder Christians from discovering the truth about Bible prophecy, may be represented by "Edom" symbolically in Isaiah's prophecy. In the scientific revolution in the eighteenth century, the sword of God came down on those who taught the geocentric cosmology, whether within, or out of the church. The papacy was discredited, as the Roman Catholic Church had opposed the heliocentric theory, and had put Galileo under arrest for teaching it.
Doug
With all due respect and with no desire to create an ongoing debate.....I would like to say that my perspective on the woman is that she is clothed with the sun (full of glory, clothed in the manifest presence, Filled with the Spirit) and gives birth to the manchild. I believe she is the fulfillment of Ephesisns 4.....Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Son of God.
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
The harlot church rides on the beast in Babylon. The Bride unites with the groom and gives birth.She is carried into the wilderness on the wings of a great eagle.
Psa 91:1-4 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
She is nourished(perhaps by teaching, even as the 120 were taught in preparation for the new age born at pentecost), perhaps, "made ready", for her King and Betrothed is coming. A chaste virgin without spot wrinkle or blemish.
Hos 2:16-23 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi(Husband); and shalt call me no more Baali (Master). .........
(19) And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD......
Hos 6:1-3 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning (2 Pet 1:19); and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth(James 5:7; Jn 15:1; Hos 2:22,23).
Also, I think that there are many mountains that typify many different manifestations of babylon. Edom is the mountain of Esau(Mt. Seir Gen 36:8,9), who sold his birthright for a morsel of pottage, representing those who teach godliness as a means of gain and any who have "sold out" the truth of the gospel, which is, being conformed to the image of Christ, partakers of the divine nature, Sons of God (Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest). There is also Mt Sinai, the mountain of Ishmael and Hagar, representing those who have a supernatural birth but reproduce through union with the flesh, and law and are in bondage(not set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God)and whose sons are always in conflict(Gal 4; Gen 16:12). There is wisdom from above, (our "mother" the Jerusalem from above is free) full of mercy and good fruit, sown in peace by peacemakers(sons)... There is wisdom from below, earthly, soulical, demonic (full of selfish ambition and bitter jealousy)
The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.
Mic 4:1-4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
The deliverers shall ascend Mt Zion to judge the mountain of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord's Ob 1:21
Quote from: eaglesway on September 16, 2009
Also, I think that there are many mountains that typify many different manifestations of babylon. Edom is the mountain of Esau(Mt. Seir Gen 36:8,9), who sold his birthright for a morsel of pottage, representing those who teach godliness as a means of gain and any who have "sold out" the truth of the gospel, which is, being conformed to the image of Christ, partakers of the divine nature, Sons of God (Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest). There is also Mt Sinai, the mountain of Ishmael and Hagar, representing those who have a supernatural birth but reproduce through union with the flesh, and law and are in bondage(not set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God)and whose sons are always in conflict(Gal 4; Gen 16:12). There is wisdom from above, (our "mother" the Jerusalem from above is free) full of mercy and good fruit, sown in peace by peacemakers(sons)... There is wisdom from below, earthly, soulical, demonic (full of selfish ambition and bitter jealousy)
The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.
Mountains is prophecy are often symbolic, and just as Zion and Jerusalem are symbolic of the church, in many prophecies, Edom is symbolic of the church's enemies.
The prophecies about Edom:
The sword of God will come down on Edom [Isaiah 34:5]; they were taken captive by Babylon [Jeremiah 25:21]; their wisdom will perish [Jeremiah 49:7-22]; they took vengeance against Judah [Ezekiel 25:12-14]; their cities will be desolate [Ezekiel 35:1-15]; they uttered blasphemies against the mountains of Israel, and claimed them for a possession [Ezekiel 35:12]; they committed violence against Judah, and shed innocent blood [Joel 3:19]; they participated in the destruction of Jerusalem; they cut off the way of escape for Jews; they delivered up those that remained to their enemies [Obadiah].
J. A. Alexander suggested in his comments on Isa:34, that Edom is symbolic: "Edom being particularly mentioned, as an enemy of ancient Israel peculiarly inveterate and malignant, and thence used to represent the whole class of such enemies."
[The earlier prophecies of Isaiah, Volume 1. By Joseph Addison Alexander. p. 556.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=v2NuAAAAIAAJ (http://books.google.ca/books?id=v2NuAAAAIAAJ)
In my view, Edom in prophecies such as Isa. 34 does not necessarily refer to Edomites after the flesh, just as Jerusalem and Judah in prophecy does not always mean the literal Jerusalem, but often applies to the church. In the second century BC, John Hyrcanus conquered Edom, and forced them to become Jews.
John Hyrcanus was the Hasmonean high priest of the Jews, 134 BC - 104 BC. He was the son of Simon Maccabaeus. In the first year of his reign, Jerusalem was besieged by the Seleucid king Antiochus VII Sidetes. The siege lasted for a year, and the outcome was a negotiated truce, which required payment of a tribute and participation by the Jews in the Seleucid war against the Parthians. When Antiochus was killed in battle, John Hyrcanus took advantage of the unrest in Seleucia to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, assert Judean independence, and expand his territory.
Wikipedia says: "Hyrcanus also initiated a military campaign against the Idumeans in Negev near Eilat. During this campaign Hyrcanus conquered Adora, Marisa and other Idumean towns (Ant.13.257). Hyrcanus then instituted forced conversions on the Idumeans. This was an unprecedented move for a Judean ruler."
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews IX, 2 says: "Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."
The Herodian Dynasty that ruled Judea after the Roman conquest in 37 BC was Edomite. Edomites joined with Jews in the rebellion of 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. After that, their nation disappeared. Later Jewish writings identify Edom with Rome.
I suggest, the prophetic symbolism of Edom is no longer the ancient enmity of those people to Jews, as they eventually became Jews (who opposed the apostles and the early church). Rather, Edom is symbolic of enemies of the saints, who hinder them from possessing the promises.
Doug
:cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my :2c:. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 17, 2009, 06:40:43 PM
:cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my :2c:. Blessings....
I agree
And while they represent the descendants by flesh from Abraham they also regarding future prophecies represent the church of the flesh who do not worship in spirit and in truth
They are the ones of the sanctuary who do not have the mark of the Cross on their foreheads that is the mountain provided by Jesus for us to ascend unto in order to be within the Holiest and the presence of the Lord
We all deal with our flesh and past....... and I pray that you folks are tormented far less than I am.
However our Father in His unending mercy has offered his pure and sinless flesh in place of my filthy rags so that I too can depart from the realm of earthly flesh and ascend to sit in heavenly places where I may be both comforted from my flesh and hear the things of God.
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Amen, I agree........ :thumbsup: Blessings.....
I agree 3 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :icon_flower:
So do I !! Heb 123 'Edom from H122'adom 1) red, ruddy (of man, horse, heifer, garment, water, lentils)
Edom = "red"
1) Edom
2) Edomite, Idumean - descendants of Esau
3) land of Edom, Idumea - land south and south east of Palestine
h6215 `Esav
Esau = "hairy"
1) eldest son of Isaac and Rebecca and twin brother of Jacob; sold the birthright for food when he was hungry and the divine blessing went to Jacob; progenitor of the Arab peoples
seeing a'' hairy red man as the carnal wrath of man /flesh as well :thumbsup: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: rose
Quote from: Doug on September 17, 2009, 06:00:22 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 16, 2009
Rather, Edom is symbolic of enemies of the saints, who hinder them from possessing the promises.
Doug
Quote from: Cardinal on September 17, 2009, 06:40:43 PM
:cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my :2c:. Blessings....
I see similarities here.
Quote from: Livelystone
And while they represent the descendants by flesh from Abraham they also regarding future prophecies represent the church of the flesh who do not worship in spirit and in truth
Interesting comments.
There is a book by Ernest L. Martin,
The People That History Forgot, that discusses the Edomites of the Bible, and their history.
http://www.askelm.com/people/ (http://www.askelm.com/people/)
Martin pointed out that more is said about them in prophecy than any other (non-Israelite) nation.
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p060701.htm (http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p060701.htm)
Dr. Martin believed that the people of Tyre were descended from Edom. Many of these people eventually migrated or were taken as slaves to Rome, and some of the Roman emperors were Edomites. He suggested the descendants of Edom were involved in establishing the major world religions.
Doug
Even tho the blood on the doorpost, and Red Sea parting, and the pillar of cloud and fire are images of our salvation by blood through water and in Spirit.....They actually happened. Even tho the eight souls saved from the kosmos that was created out of water then destroyed with water are a type of our deliverance- the flood actually happened. The spiritual realities behind the visible occurrences are more real than the occurrences in the sense that what is unseen is greater than that which is seen, yet, there must be a literal outpouring of the Spirit into our hearts in order to realize the promises made. The saints must "actually pray", hear His voice and seek His face to enter His rest. The veil will actually be rent in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, the dead shall actually be raised. I think disassociating the symbology(or spiritual reality) from the historic outworking only creates confusion and gnostic elitism. The distinguishing of the principles behind the events, such as His appearing, was easy enough to make in the scriptures by the writers- to the church and among themselves, so I really don t see it as all that big an issue. The veil is rent for us already, but only in part. A Day is coming is when we shall know as we are known, but not all will know as we will at that time, until later on...for them the veil will remain, in part. Eventually all rule power and authority will be abolished and there will be no veils at all anywhere for anyone. We are in time, in order to be reasonable, it seems to me, we have to deal with time event horizons and aionios realities as the writers of scripture did......together.
Also, My 2cents, again. There is a specificity about Esau that I think is real, yea, I agree he is the flesh hairy man etc.-
but Hebrews 12:16 refers to his selling out of the inheritance for a morsel of food. It was for this cause he lost the birthright altho he later "earnestly" sought it with bitter tears, he could not.
Our birthright is sonship, maturity in Christs nature leads to placement over the inheritance. I see little evidence of placed sons, leading me to believe many veils remain.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Heb 4:1-6 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest,........ Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
Although Edom later warred against Israel, as did Samaria and Ishmael and Ephraim in particular against his own brothers....there is something in that sellout of Esau's that is worthy of note(by the Holy Spirit in Hebrews at least) in regards to inheriting the promises. Hebrews is about the rending of the veil, and about the preisthood, sonship and how we enter it. They are all related, as he who is our high priest entered in before us, having been perfected by suffering, leading many sons to glory along the same path to a shared priesthood.
Quote from: eaglesway
I think disassociating the symbology(or spiritual reality) from the historic outworking only creates confusion and gnostic elitism.
Did you find my suggestion that Edom represents the enemies of the church confusing?
Quote from: eaglesway on September 16, 2009
The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.
How do you understand this, without interpreting? Is the "little stone" a literal stone? Does Mt. Zion literally grow taller than Mount Everest?
Quote from: eaglesway on September 16, 2009
for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
In your opinion, is Zion in this prophecy literal, and is Jerusalem the earthly city, or does it mean the church as suggested by Heb. 12:22?
Will people go back to fighting with swords and spears? At present, those weapons are out of fashion, while guns are in.
Doug
Doug
I think you misunderstood that my post was to you specifically. I was just restating some things in relation to my previous posts as well as all the other posts in the thread including yours. I have no desire to engage in a point by point debate with you. But I will answer briefly. The statements I made about Edom and Esau did not exclude and were not to the exclusion of your statements about it, or anyone elses. Simply a point I was making regarding a specific aspect of Esau I find prophetically important, and that the Holy Spirit testifies to in the word. There may be more than one or two aspects of Esau worthy of consideration.....I do not see what I said as all inclusive.
As far as the little stone. When I was speaking about the general subject of reconciling prophetic realities with the literal events (in my last post)that sometimes accompany them- I was referring primarily to the sky(oraunos heavens) being rolled back as a scroll, which is in Isaiah 34:4 and Rev 6:14. I was speaking about this, in the line of the general discussion, because I believe this refers to the second coming of Christ....which is a historical event to come- fulfilling a spiritual reality we have received already in part. This is like the flood and the exodus.....not purely symbolic, but accompanied by historic manifestation. This is a different type of vision than for instance, Zechariahs lampstand or Jeremiahs good and bad figs.
As I explained in my view of the woman clothed with the sun, we compare spiritual terms with spiritual realities. We may not see them all alike. I obviously do not look for a mountain larger than Everest (did you read my post before you responded?) because I stated clearly that the many mountains represented various prophetic principles, such as Mt. Sinai, being compared with the law and Ishmael. I do not understand your attitude. If I find it troubling to say the least, but lest this go any further I ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in some way.
If I have, please send me a private message and we can hash it out. I cannot know whose doctrinal views I may be stepping on when I share, and I assume when we disagree we can discuss it respectfully, in the spirit of midrash.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
Jas 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Grace and peace,John
Some more thoughts on veils, wheels within wheels, layers of the onion, We all stumble in many ways
Even as a veil separates the light from the darkness - we are children of the light, not children of darkness, or offspring of "this present evil aion"Gal 1:4. If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the "god of this aion" has blinded the minds of them 2 Cor. 4:4
Gen 1:2-4 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I have been seeing a relationship between aion and kosmos, because of the way Peter talks of the "earth" being created "out of water" and destruction of that "kosmos" by water(the flood) in 2 Peter 3. It would seem possible that the life of a "kosmos" could correspond to an "aion" even as the life of a man can be measured by "aion". The use of earth(ghay), world (kosmos), "heavens" (oraunos) and "heavens and earth"(ouranos, ghay) seem interlaced in these following verses.
2Pe 3:4-8 and saying,"Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. (5) For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, (6) by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. (7) But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hemera) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8) Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now(in the moment that is, "Today") and for ever (eis hemera aion [strongs]- unto the day of the age). Amen.
The day of the age?
Peter uses the word hemera-day repeatedly: let the day dawn, day of judgment and perdition, day of God, day of the Lord, day of the age, a day as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day- interesting, this thousand year day. Peter says, "Be not ignorant of this one thing", like, as Paul would say, Behold I show you a mystery.
The "heavens and earth which are now", compared with, "the world(kosmos) that was then". If heavens and earth is somewhat interchangeable with "kosmos", it has some interesting applications.
Also, altho it says "the kosmos that was, then perished", but obviously the physical earth did not perish. It seems similarly then that the heavens and the earth that are now reserved for fire, is the "kosmos" and the elements of it, and that the "new heavens and the new earth" will be the renewed kosmos(Behold, I make all things new) transformed by the presence of God who is a consuming fire, death swallowing up mortality and creation set free from futility eh, wot? A thousand year day....the day of the age, a day of fiery transition from what is to a new kosmos "in which tabernacles righteousness'. Our day of deliverance and fulfillment is their day of perdition until all be redeemed.
Rev 11:18-19 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time(kiaros-appointed time) came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." (19) And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened(sky rolled back as a scroll); and the ark of His covenant(sign of the son of man) appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away(sky roll back as a scroll) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This compares with the heavens and earth, the kosmos that was then being "destroyed" by the flood
2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hamerah) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Every man's work will be tested by fire, for the day shall reveal it 1 Cor 3:12-15)
In 1 Thess 4 and in 1 Cor 15 Paul ties these things to the event of the physical resurrection of the dead and the Lord descending from heaven.....the first resurrection.
Of course, only "the children of the day" will take part in it. The sleeping ones and the surfeiting ones will be taken as a thief. Therefore "walk in the light as He is in the light". For this reason Paul sought by any means to attain to the "out resurrection from amongst the dead" (exanastasis)Phil 3:8-16. He did not feel he had attained to it yet because as long as we are in the body we must overcome to remain in that hope of "escaping the hour of trial that is to come upon all them that dwell on the earth, which is not the tribulation, it is the Great White Throne.
Rom 2:5-7 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day(hemera) of wrath and revelation(apokalupsis) of the righteous judgment(tribunal) of God; (6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(aionios) life:
We, in the Bride, are like the Betrothed of the Lord, our veil is taken away in Christ, yet only in part now, the day star has risen, the day dawns....we must pursue unto the full noon. Those who endure to the end (waiting on the Lord while they live, to the end of their trial) will receive the purchased possession. Now we have only the pledge(down payment, dowry). We have an "anchor within the veil", having "not seen yet believing". At the marriage supper, which is begun now but will be consummated at the end of this age, our veil will be fully removed and we will enter the bed chamber for unbroken fellowship with the Lord(thus shall we ever be with the Lord).
1Jn 5:19-20 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world(kosmos) lieth in wickedness. (20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal(aionios) life.
Hello again EW
I can see the love of Christ in your words and that is good........ real good as love does cover a lot of our "missing the mark' while we still struggle with seeing in part because of the flesh that still hinders our spiritual vision. IMO our shortcoming of only seeing in part is more often than not brought about by us following the letter of the word therfore we miss the Spirit of the Word
Maybe that is why so many things are written as how an onion is formed rather than just sum it up as Christ the seed with the hope of glory being Him the seed becoming a fully mature fruit baring tree within us because believe me when I say ........That is the "second coming of Christ" and not the man Jesus walking on earth again. :thumbsup:
2 Pet 3. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
We need to go to and fro with a little here and a little there to have our understanding of these passages increased minus the veil that Moses wore in order to see what the spirit is saying here
Considering the things of old (seeing in part) the earth (we are earthen vessels) standing in the water (believing in the Word) yet standing out of the water (we are still an uncompleted work because we only see in part) but when fully covered with water (us fully in the Word as our understanding increases) just as how the water that covered the earth in the flood that saved (sanctified) eight souls
I believe the Lord would have me to stop at this point
Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on September 18, 2009, 12:07:25 PM
Considering the things of old (seeing in part) the earth (we are earthen vessels) standing in the water (believing in the Word) yet standing out of the water (we are still an uncompleted work because we only see in part) but when fully covered with water (us fully in the Word as our understanding increases) just as how the water that covered the earth in the flood that saved (sanctified) eight souls
I believe the Lord would have me to stop at this point
Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus
Doug
:cloud9: He might, but I sure wouldn't.......... :winkgrin: Blessings.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway
Doug
I think you misunderstood that my post was to you specifically. I was just restating some things in relation to my previous posts as well as all the other posts in the thread including yours.
Thanks for your responses. I was not offended; my questions were asking for some clarity, as the comment by you that I quoted mentioned "confusion" and "gnostic elitism."
It may be true that some of the ideas that have been presented have a "gnostic" character. And there is certainly plenty of confusion. I have quoted the views of several authors, all of them having different opinions on the meaning of the heavens rolling together as a scroll, and certainly the variety of opinions demonstrates confusion. But I aim for clarity, and for truth. We have a promise from the Lord that the Spirit will guide us to the truth. I have a suggestion; it would be helpful in the discussion, when labels like "gnostic" and "confusion" are used for the views of others, to quote the statements that those labels apply to, or identify the post or the author you are referring to. Otherwise those terms seem like an attempt smear other views, and no one can be sure whether their posts were the target or not. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: eaglesway
As far as the little stone. When I was speaking about the general subject of reconciling prophetic realities with the literal events (in my last post)that sometimes accompany them- I was referring primarily to the sky(oraunos heavens) being rolled back as a scroll, which is in Isaiah 34:4 and Rev 6:14. I was speaking about this, in the line of the general discussion, because I believe this refers to the second coming of Christ....which is a historical event to come- fulfilling a spiritual reality we have received already in part. This is like the flood and the exodus.....not purely symbolic, but accompanied by historic manifestation.
Can you explain this a little more? I think the 6th seal, when this event occurs, is before the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the saints, which occur at the "last trump," the seventh. But the heavens rolling together as a scroll is certainly in the "day of the Lord."
Doug
Quote from: eaglesway
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away(sky roll back as a scroll) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This compares with the heavens and earth, the kosmos that was then being "destroyed" by the flood
2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day(hamerah) of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Every man's work will be tested by fire, for the day shall reveal it 1 Cor 3:12-15)
The heavens Peter is referring to here certainly must be the starry heavens. I think Peter refers to the creation account in Genesis which describes the earth as created "standing out of the water and in the water."
The waters breaking forth from within the earth's interior caused the flood, according to Peter. The heavens of Peter's time, "which are now," (as he said), refers to the cosmology of the ancient world. People in those days thought the stars were fixed in a rigid heavenly firmament, that revolved around the earth every day. The planets and sun and moon were thought to be attached to invisible spheres revolving around the earth. This view dominated the thinking of men for thousands of years.
That is what has "passed away." The "great noise" is the commotion that arose, after men realized there is no rigid firmament up there, because of the scientific revolution. The church had been foremost in promoting the flawed cosmology of the ancient Greeks. Many of the great cathedrals of the world feature domes that when constructed, were supposed to represent the rigid heavenly firmament. And the church had vigorously defended the geocentric cosmology against astronomers such as Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler and others who supported the heliocentric view. The church's scholars claimed the geocentric view was the one supported in scripture.
Peter foretold the scientific revolution, in 2 Pet. 3:10, IMO. The "great noise" continues today. Many people today would deny the geocentric cosmology is supported in scripture. I think it is, but only because of corruptions introduced in hellenistic times. There was a systematic revision of the cosmology of the OT in the time of Antiochus IV.
The heavens being rolled together as a scroll makes sense only because this prophecy represents the end of the supposed revolutions of the heavens, which ceased in the scientific revolution. I suggest everyone could easily demonstrate this to themselves, by making a model of a scroll, using some cardboard rolls from the kitchen, a spent roll from package of plastic wrap for example. Cut it in two, and tape a strip of newspaper to each roll, and roll them together. When they meet, it is impossible to roll the spindles together any more. That is the essence of Isaiah's prophecy. It is what the scientific revolution is about. The heaven does not revolve round the earth, but the earth revolves instead.
(http://www.sentex.net/%7Etcc/scroll1.gif)
This discovery changed the course of history in a profound way. It is one of the most significant events in all of the history of man. Why should the Bible not have predicted it? I say it does, in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4. However, the skeptics refuse to acknowledge that such a prophecy could be in the Bible. Their minds are prejudiced against it. Let's not be like them! We are supposed to be "children of light," not of darkness!
Doug
Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)
Quote from: WhiteWings
Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)
I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on September 18, 2009, 04:32:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Funny thing is that the 'noise' occured on a Sabbath year ( as most major prophesies)
I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.
Doug
First of all, those men who brought about this change were Christians--Newton, Keppler--most of what they wrote was on theology. These early giants of science were searching for God.
But, today, science has been perverted by men who lie about it in schools and newspapers and books, and hidden from the general public for over 100 years. Is that part of any prophecy, too?
Quote from: MollyQuote from: Doug on Today at 09:32:56 AM
I think the "noise" has been going on for centuries. It was called "The Enlightenment." The church was held in contempt by the philosophers, because it had promoted the flawed cosmology; that has not abated.
First of all, those men who brought about this change were Christians--Newton, Keppler--most of what they wrote was on theology. These early giants of science were searching for God.
But, today, science has been perverted by men who lie about it in schools and newspapers and books, and hidden from the general public for over 100 years. Is that part of any prophecy, too?
Things would be different if people knew about Isaiah's prediction of the scientific revolution, don't you think? The misinformation you refer to would be included in the "noise." But there are other prophecies, that refer to the spiritual "darkness" of our age:
Isaiah 60:2
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Joel 2:2 describes the day of the Lord as "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness." Also Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Peter spoke of
prophecy as a "light that shineth in a dark place," implying we are living in the spiritual "night," and the "day" is yet to dawn.
2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Jesus also said "the night cometh" referring to the spiritual darkness that was to come upon the world. His ministry and the gospel were a "great light," and he called it "day."
John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
There are many others...
Doug
Don't shoot the messenger Molly :robinhood:
I've been looking but can find my notes :sigh:
A OT prophesy points to a event in the near past where a new model for the cosmos was accepted by science.
It fell on a Sabbath or even Jubilee year. Vague. Yes. But all I have right now.
In case it intrests someone:
Daniels prophesy Jubilee year
70 year desolation of Jerusalem ends on a Sabbath year
Jerusalem rebuild on Jubilee year.
Jesus starts ministry on a Sabbath year.
Gospel to Gentiles ends on a Jubelee year.
Temple destroyed on a Sabbath year
End of flood Jubilee year
Exodus ends on a Jubilee year.
etc
Just a sample of what I waste my time on :eeew:
Quote from: DougPeter spoke of prophecy as a "light that shineth in a dark place," implying we are living in the spiritual "night," and the "day" is yet to dawn.
2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Jesus also said "the night cometh" referring to the spiritual darkness that was to come upon the world. His ministry and the gospel were a "great light," and he called it "day."
John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Yes, it's odd. When Jesus walked the earth he seemed to keep implying that this was a moment of great light that was going to revert to darkness--where we [the followers of Christ] would be the only light available to the world. We are still living in the age of darkness, but now it is punctured by some bright lights.
Right now, we are in another dark age as dark as anything in the middle ages. The Renaissance was quickly snuffed out by the god of this world. People are uneducated, afraid, asleep, the walking dead. They are buried alive and don't know which way is up. And, it's getting darker by the minute.
I'm thinking about the timing of all of this. I don't know prophecy well enough to determine it. Without the arrival of Jesus 2000 years ago, we would not even talk about dark ages because we would never have seen the light.
Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
Quote from: Molly
Yes, it's odd. When Jesus walked the earth he seemed to keep implying that this was a moment of great light that was going to revert to darkness--where we [the followers of Christ] would be the only light available to the world. We are still living in the age of darkness, but now it is punctured by some bright lights.
Right now, we are in another dark age as dark as anything in the middle ages. The Renaissance was quickly snuffed out by the god of this world. People are uneducated, afraid, asleep, the walking dead. They are buried alive and don't know which way is up. And, it's getting darker by the minute.
I'm thinking about the timing of all of this. I don't know prophecy well enough to determine it. Without the arrival of Jesus 2000 years ago, we would not even talk about dark ages because we would never have seen the light.
Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
In my view, the day of the Lord includes the scientific revolution, and spans all the time since then. The scientific revolution in the mid-eighteenth century was when the heavens were "cleansed," [Dan. 8:14] which fulfilled Daniel's prophecy of the 2,300 days. That was 23 centuries after Daniel saw the vision of Dan. 8.
The prophecy of the heavens rolling up as a scroll in Isa. 34:4 pictures the scientific revolution in astronomy. The Ptolemaic system was swept away to oblivion, once men realized the earth rotates about its axis. Isaiah's prophecy that "all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree" foretold Newton's discovery of universal gravitation. What else is universal gravitation but a statement that "all their host falls down"? Every particle in the universe "falls" towards every other mass.
Newton compared the moon's orbit of the earth to the fall of an apple from a tree; Isaiah compares it to figs.
Daniel wrote:
Daniel 12:3-4
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.In our age, both travel and knowledge have increased.
Zechariah said it would be a time of "neither dark nor light."
Zechariah 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.We have a great deal of technological knowledge, and scientific knowledge, so our age is not completely dark. The deficiency is in our spiritual understanding. That's why we need to look into prophecy.
Doug
Quote from: DougZechariah said it would be a time of "neither dark nor light."
Zechariah 14:6-7
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
We have a great deal of technological knowledge, and scientific knowledge, so our age is not completely dark. The deficiency is in our spiritual understanding. That's why we need to look into prophecy.
So are you saying we are in the day of the Lord now? for 1000 years from the time of the enlightenment? Then we need to stand up and take hold of the great advances in science that have been hidden from us, and doled out like cookies by a stringent nanny. The cell phone was invented in the 1890's-- when did you see it? Everything we know as history and politics is complete lies, but there are other clear voices telling the truth--and even going to jail for it, even dying for it. This gives us a day that is neither clear nor dark. But, the prophet says that as that day turns to night, the light will shine.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth... Most of the world is in darkness now, not by accident, but by design. I would love to think that suddenly the light of God would come on full force.
24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.--Acts 4
Quote from: Molly
So are you saying we are in the day of the Lord now? for 1000 years from the time of the enlightenment?
The "day of the Lord" includes the enlightenment, and the scientific revolution, if I understand 2 Peter 3:10 correctly, when he said "the heavens will pass away the great noise." The old heavens, of Peter's day, has disappeared.
The scientific revolution "cleansed" or "set right" man's view of the heavens, and this fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the 2,300 days, Dan 8:14. It was when modern astronomy replaced the old geocentric cosmology. About 1750 AD, 23 centuries after Daniel's vision, the rigid heavenly firmament, and the planetary spheres were abolished forever. Look at the events of that period, that combined to fulfill Daniel's prophecy:
In 1720, Jacob van 'sGravesande published his
Mathematical elements of natural philosophy confirmed by experiments, or an introduction to Sir Isaac Newton's philosophy.
In 1725 James Bradley discovered the aberration of light, thus proving the earth's motion.
The third edition of Newton's
Principia was published in 1726, when Newton was 80 years old.
In 1736 Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis led an expedition to Lapland to measure the length of a degree along the meridian. The results verified Newton's concept of gravity, which required that the earth is an oblate spheroid, flattened in polar regions.
Francesco Algarotti published his '
Il newtonianismo per le dame' [
Newtonianism for the Ladies] in 1736, on Newton's optics. It became one of the most popular accounts of Newton's philosophy.
Voltaire (Francios Marie Arounet) and Madame du Chatelet (Emilie de Breteuil) wrote a popular exposition of Newton's discoveries, "
Elements of Sir Isaac Newton's Philosophy". Both French and English editions were published in 1738.
In 1743 Alexis Claude Clairaut explained the figure of the earth by his theorem connecting gravity at points on the surface of a rotating ellipsoid with the centrifugal force at the equator.
In 1747 Claurault wrote about a "great revolution in physics" caused by Newton's '
Principia'. The idea that a scientific revolution in astronomy was underway became prevalent in the second half of the eighteenth century. It was the basis for Kant's description of the time as "the age of enlightenment."
In 1744 the Roman Catholic Church allowed the printing of Galileo's
Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. It still remained on the
Index of Prohibited Books, and inclusion of Galileo's recantation of Copernican theory was required in the same volume.
In 1747 Emilie de Breteuil and Alexis Clairaut began translating Newton's
Principia into French; the work was published in 1759.
In 1749 Clairaut showed that Newton's theory of gravity was confirmed by observations of the motion of the moon.
Mikhail Vasilyevich Lomonosov, who had studied at Freiberg, introduced the new astronomy and the Copernican theory at the Academy of St. Petersburg in Russia, beginning about 1750. In 1755 he founded Moscow University.
In 1750 Thomas Wright published
An Original Theory and New Hypothesis of the Universe in which he proposed that the Sun and stars form a giant system rotating around a common center, thus describing the modern view of the Milky Way.
In 1755 Immanuel Kant suggested that nebulae are large star systems like the Milky Way.
In 1757, the
Congregation of the Index "secretly allowed the ideas of Copernicus to be tolerated." Also, Lutheran theologians in Germany opposed the Copernican theory during the first part of the eighteenth century, claiming it was opposed to scripture, "yet at the middle of the century we find some of the clearest-headed of them aware of the fact that their cause was lost." [A. D. White,
Warfare of Science with Theology, Chapter III: Astronomy.]
http://www.santafe.edu/~shalizi/White/astronomy/results-of-victory.html
In 1757, musician William Herschel of Hanover migrated to England, where he became interested in astronomy. His improved telescope design led to many discoveries.
The return of Halley's comet, which reached perihelion on March 12, 1759, was regarded as a great triumph for the Newtonian theory. Its reappearance in 1758 had been predicted by Edmund Halley.
French mathematician Jean Lerond d'Alembert wrote in 1759: "Our century is called ... the century of philosophy par excellence ... The discovery and application of a new method of philosophizing, the kind of enthusiasm which accompanies discoveries, a certain exaltation of ideas which the spectacle of the universe produces in us - all these causes have brought about a lively fermentation of minds, spreading through nature in all directions like a river which has burst its dams."
[Quoted in: Hankins, Thomas L. 1985.
Science and the Enlightenment. Cambridge University Press, p. 1.]
Doug
Wow lotsa posts since this morning :o). My whole point was that I see many folks trying to separate the wheels within wheels. For instance, with the little stone. As the spiritual reality presented in the vision is worked out over time(within time) there will be many "noises" and many "lightnings" (His judgments flash like lightnings from His right hand; Habbakuk 3:4). When I hear folks disassociating these "in time" events, which are important, and always have been, or God would not notify us prophetically before hand and explain and define them prophetically after the fact, as if the "history past" and the "history to come" are unimportant, I think they are missing some important parts of the revelation. The way I see it is that some of these spiritual realities actually find fulfilment in time-for instance, the full birth of the lamb slain is expressed in the crucifixion.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Other spiritual realities have their consummation at different points in history. Prophecy is the event horizon.
Also, I believe the water the Noah was saved through was not the same as the washing of the water of the word in that it destroyed the existing kosmos, and everyone in it. Even as the water of the Red Sea destroyed the Horse and Rider(strong man and his armies). Even as the water in baptism is the earth into which we are buried, finishing the judgment of the old man and destroying our old kosmos and bringing us into the new....a veil that all must pass through in order to receive sonship. Altho on the flipside I do see that all things are of God and in a sense everything flows from Him, but the Logos is making distinctions and I agree with those distinctions. For the present evil age is under judgment, and their is a distinction till all be redeemed. Out of time, back later.
Quote from: DougThe "day of the Lord" includes the enlightenment, and the scientific revolution, if I understand 2 Peter 3:10 correctly, when he said "the heavens will pass away the great noise." The old heavens, of Peter's day, has disappeared.
The scientific revolution "cleansed" or "set right" man's view of the heavens, and this fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the 2,300 days, Dan 8:14. It was when modern astronomy replaced the old geocentric cosmology. About 1750 AD, 23 centuries after Daniel's vision, the rigid heavenly firmament, and the planetary spheres were abolished forever. Look at the events of that period, that combined to fulfill Daniel's prophecy:
Well, yes, it was certainly a glorious time. This is what happens when an exceptional number of geniuses, [as were our own founders], are floating around at the same time. And, all of this was growing out of two great events: the Protestant Reformation and the invention of the printing press.
The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
But, look what happened to the enlightenment. It devolved into the Jacobin reign of terror during the French Revolution. Could things get any darker? Yes, they could--out of the ashes rose Napoleon to wreck havoc on all the enemies of the church--an Emperor? The Roman Empire reviving it's ugly head?
Does it ever end?
Today we have the ability to be the most informed generation in the history of mankind. The internet--one big mind--google anything and you will find the answer. No longer can a few rich men control the flow of information. No longer can a few be the arbitrers of truth, as if truth were negotiable. And, what do they want to do? Shut it down!
It is a constant battle that never lets up. :msealed:
Rev 12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Not by Might, Not by Power, But by My Spirit, Says the Lord!
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked
As I see Revelations, the sealed book of Daniel(Dn12:4) is the same sealed book in the hands of the one who sits on the throne. The breaking of the seals are not historical, they are the opening for John, of that portion of Daniels revelation he was commanded to "seal up" until the time of the end. They are the unfolding of Johns vision as he sees it(breaking news :o). The things he sees are spiritual pictures of things in the heavens (unseen realities), all of which are active from then till now(at hand), but some of which will be "consummated" at the second advent. John was told at the end of his vision "do not seal up the book for the time is at hand." The breaking of each seal represents an opening of the formerly sealed revelation. The whole vision from the opening of the first seal onward is like a wheel with spokes to the center, which is, "the day of the Lord", or second coming, parousia, etc.
It is a wheel, not a line. the sealed book is the rim of the wheel, the spokes all lead to the second coming which is revealed in four different places in Revelations. The day of the Lord is the hub of the wheel, which i believe(loosely) is Peters thousand year day,the day of the ages, beginning at the second coming and ending at the great white throne. JP Dake drew the conclusion that there where 4 appearings through the tribulation period, because he thought that Johns vision was chronological , as most folks do. If you note the similarities between the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl, you might see that the bowls and the trumpets are occuring alongside each other, each culminating at the "Last trumpet", (Rev ch 10 I think...when the 7th angel (trumpet) sounds the mystery of God which He preached by His apostle aand prophets is finished) and then, when it sounds(rev 11) "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ; and then when the 7th bowl is poured out "It is done". The seals break, revealing separate simultaneoulsy occuring timelines and revelations of eternal heavenly realities, almost all of which I believe are consummated (fully manifested)at the 2nd advent. Thats a very brief view of my perspective on revelations and the seals trumpets bowls etc. I can go further, but I don't want to go further unless this is ringing a bell for someone.
:cloud9: I'm listening....... :happygrin: Blessings....
I hear a bell!
Quote from: Molly
Well, yes, it was certainly a glorious time. This is what happens when an exceptional number of geniuses, [as were our own founders], are floating around at the same time. And, all of this was growing out of two great events: the Protestant Reformation and the invention of the printing press.
Also, the Royal Society, and similar societies elsewhere, provided the environment for the sharing and development of ideas.
Some of the individuals who preceded Newton, and contemporaries, who contributed to the scientific revolution are included in the list below. Newton said that he saw further because he "stood on the shoulders of giants."
Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543)
- proposed a heliocentric cosmology, and a rotating earth
- published
De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (
On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres) in the year of his death, 1545
- The Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index banned '
De revolutionibus' in 1616, and also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun
Tycho Brahe (1546-1601)
- made accurate observations of planets
- catalogue of stars
- Tychonic System
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
- experimental method
- inductive reasoning
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
- studied uniform acceleration
- improved telescope
- observed sunspots, satellites of Jupiter
- championed Copernicanism
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
- used astronomical observations made by Brahe
- derived 3 laws of planetary motion
René Descartes (1596-1650)
- connected plane geometry and algebra
- founded analytic geometry
- developed the Cartesian coordinate system
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
- developed probability theory
- invented a mechanical calculator
- principles of hydrodynamics
- hydraulic press
- reasoning based on definitions
Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
- practiced the principles advocated by Bacon
- described experiments so others could repeat them
- propagation of sound
- Boyle's Law
- chemistry of combustion
- expansion of water upon freezing
Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695)
- invented pendulum clock
- discovered ring of Saturn
- organised
Academie des Sciences, Paris 1666.
- developed the wave theory of light
Isaac Newton (1643-1727)
- theory of universal gravitation
- laws of motion
- classical mechanics
- conservation of momentum
- reflecting telescope
- theory of colour
- differential and integral calculus
-
Principia Mathematica, 1687
Ole Christensen Rømer (1644-1710)
- finite speed of light
- explained discrepancy in the period of eclipses of the moons of Jupiter
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646-1716)
- differential and integral calculus
- binary math
- said the universe is the best one possible
Edmund Halley (1656-1742)
- encouraged Newton to write his
Principia Mathematica, and financed its publication
- he proposed that the parabolic trajectory of a comet was an elongated ellipse, and that comets may return at regular intervals. On the basis of records of comet sightings in 1456, 1531, 1607 and 1682, he predicted its return in 1758. When his prediction came true, it was seen as confirming the Newtonian system. The comet was named Halley's Comet. It was seen again in 1835, 1910 and 1987.
- discovered the proper motion of the "fixed" stars
James Bradley (1693-1762)
- investigated parallax
- discovered aberration of light, proving the earth's motion
Daniel Bernoulli (1700-1782)
- fluid mechanics
- kinetic theory of gases
The scientific revolution, that fulfilled the prophecies of Isaiah 34:4, and Daniel 8:14, and 2 Peter 3:10, occurred on schedule because of their contributions.
Doug
"their contributions"
I argue: In His Wisdom!
We are forever established in present truth.
Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
This is telling us about God's "sword," which is symbolic of the scriptures. Paul said the scriptures are a "sword" in Eph. 6:17; "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"
The author of Hebrews wrote:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Isaiah said God's sword is "bathed in heaven." The sword is "steeped" or "soaked" in heaven, as this prophecy about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll demonstrates the effectiveness of God's word. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished.
This is an excellent proof of God's word, but it was not recognized by the Bible scholars and critics, or by the clergy, who all missed this amazing fulfillment of prophecy!
Paul says the warfare of the church is not against flesh and blood. So who are the ones who are slain in Isaiah's prophecy? Are they people? The armies of the nations? Or are these enemies spiritual?
Rev. 12:7-8 depicts a spiritual warfare:
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Angels or spirits at war suggest this is not referring to a flesh and blood struggle. But the saints are involved in it.
Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The saints need to overcome the deceptions of Satan, and discover the truth.
Perhaps the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy are the doctrines and theories that Christ makes war against, by His word, and flawed interpretations of prophecy, that the saints eventually overcome. The "mountains" that are "melted with blood" are the battlegrounds. These mountains represent the promises of God to the church, and prophecies of the Bible. I suggest failed interpretations of prophecy, and delusions, are the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy.
Doug
(http://www.sentex.net/%7Etcc/scroll1.gif)
Amen Doug and Beloved Servant--
2Pe 3:10 But1161 the3588 day2250 of the Lord2962 will come2240 as5613 a thief2812 in1722 the night;3571 in1722 the which3739 the3588 heavens3772 shall pass away3928 with a great noise,4500 and1161 the elements4747 shall melt3089 with fervent heat,2741 the earth1093 also2532 and2532 the3588 works2041 that are therein1722, 846 shall be burned up.2618
[the heavens] "shall pass away"
G3928
παρέρχομαι
parerchomai
par-er'-khom-ahee
From G3844 and G2064; to come near or aside, that is, to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causatively) avert: - come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.
"with a great noise"
G4500
ῥοιζηδόν
rhoizēdon
hroyd-zay-don'
Adverb from a derivative of ῥοῖζος rhoizos (a whir); whizzingly, that is, with a crash: - with a great noise.
"the elements"
G4747
στοιχεῖον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.
"shall melt"
G3089
λύω
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.
...the earth and the works therein
"shall be burnt up"
G2618
κατακαίω
katakaiō
kat-ak-ah'ee-o
From G2596 and G2545; to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).
I'm comfortable with that Doug.
What discomforts me is your insistence.
Frankly, who cares?
We all know the Father needs no help.
We're His.
I care. It's exciting. :bigGrin:
And, yes, he does need help.
ok molly,
GOD NEEDS OUR HELP?
God forbid!
we are garbage without Him.
lol
we do not even exist without HIM HIM HIM HIM
HIM HIM HIM HIM
Quote from: Molly on September 19, 2009, 06:05:28 AM
I care. It's exciting. :bigGrin:
And, yes, he does need help.
I'm sick about that.
Not a thought, a reaction.
Those inclined, then, Go HELP God.
Let me know how you do.
I'm sure He needs some fresh ideas from you on how to finish up.
I just get a kick how two "spirit filled believers" can believe/hear two different messages, yet earlier you said this "...When the Lord has something to say He will speak through you beyond your ability."
So, who is the deceived one and which one of you has heard the truth??
lol
and which are you?
both and neither
lukewarm.
just a revelation.
:Urock: :grin: :thumbsup:
my bad. :hijacked:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 19, 2009, 06:07:56 AM
ok molly,
GOD NEEDS OUR HELP?
God forbid!
we are garbage without Him.
lol
we do not even exist without HIM HIM HIM HIM
HIM HIM HIM HIM
It's just what I believe...And, what I was taught by my mother--so there! :laughing7:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. --Mat 25
Quote from: Molly on Today at 12:03:40 AM
It's just what I believe...And, what I was taught by my mother--so there! :laughing7:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
--Mat 25
It is possible for Christians to be spiritually naked, and in need of new clothing from God.
Paul spoke of having our "loins girt about with truth." This implies to be deceived, or ignorant, is to be naked.
Ephesians 6:14
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;Unless we realize our need for understanding, why would we ask God for answers?
Jesus said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." [Mat. 5:6]
IMO, the prophecy of Isaiah 34 shows that God brought about the scientific revolution, and explains how the heavens were rolled together as a scroll, and eventually ceased their revolutions. This discredits both dispensationalism and preterism. If the explanation I suggested is right, both those views of prophecy are flawed. But most dispensationalists and preterists are unaware that their views are obsolete, like clothes that are dowdy, and torn, and need to be replaced.
Isaiah's amazing prophecy about the scientific revolution is like a
new garment, that we can wear to cover up our naked condition.
When Jesus said "flee to the mountains," he did not mean literal ones. He meant the promises of God to his church, and the understanding of prophecy that He gives to us.
That's why He tells us: "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." [Mat. 24:16-18]
We need to put on the new clothes He provides, and leave the old ones behind. IMO.
Doug
Some of the early church fathers, of whom we have record, admired the geocentric cosmology of the pagan world. They apparently eschewed the 2nd epistle of Peter, perhaps because it contains the prophecy about the heavens passing away with great noise. [2 Pet. 3:10] Scholars say there is no mention of 2 Peter, till about the 4th century. The early scholars of the church completely ignored Peter's epistle in their writing. Some modern scholars infer from this that Peter was not the author of that epistle, and it must have been written by later author. But Peter's epistle also speaks of false teachers, who would "bring in damnable heresies," so it is little wonder that those who were guilty would choose to ignore it.
In the first century AD, it was generally believed the heavens revolved around the earth every day.
Clement of Rome said, "the heavens are moved by his direction and obey him in peace." Likewise the sun and moon "according to his appointment circle in harmony within the bounds appointed to them."
The pagans identified heaven with Zeus, but Christian writers often identified God with Aristotle's "Prime Mover."
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-212) accepted the system of Ptolemy, with whom he was a contemporary, and used it as a basis for allegory. He related cosmology to the tabernacle of Moses.
Origen (c. 185-254) introduced the "heavenly waters" of Scripture into cosmology, and interpreted them allegorically as referring to "good angels." In a letter to Gregory, later bishop of Caesarea, Origen calls the philosophy and astronomy of the Greeks helpful for the interpretation of scripture:
"And I would wish that you should take with you on the one hand those parts of the philosophy of the Greeks which are fit, as it were, to serve as general or preparatory studies for Christianity, and on the other hand so much of Geometry and Astronomy as may be helpful for the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. The children of the philosophers speak of geometry and music and grammar and rhetoric and astronomy as being ancillary to philosophy; and in the same way we might speak of philosophy itself as being ancillary to Christianity."
Porphyry the pagan wrote that Origen "associated himself at all times with Plato."
Lactantius (c. 250-325) denied that the earth has a spherical shape, on the basis of a literal interpretation of the Bible, and ridiculed the idea that antipodes could exist, because he couldn't understand how people could live on the other side of the earth "with their feet higher than their heads."
Basil (329-379) studied at the Philosophical Academy at Athens, and was Bishop of Caesarea for the last ten years of his life. Whereas Aristotle had taught the heavens were eternal, Basil argued in his Homilies on the Hexaemeron that they had been created by God, who he identified with Plato's Demiurge.
[David C. Lindberg, 1986. Science and the Early Church. In: David C. Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers, eds. God and Nature. University of California Press. Berkeley. p. 33]
Basil supposed the Creation account in Genesis spoke of two heavens, one created on the first day, and another on the second. The heavenly waters were in between. On Basil's thoughts about the waters above the firmament, Nebelsick wrote:
The heavenly waters, that touchstone of the created nature of the heavens, caused Basil a problem but it was not insuperable. There was no doubt in Basil's mind that there were waters above the firmament as attested by the biblical account of creation. However, since the firmament appeared to be curved, the heavenly waters were likely to pour off a dome-like surface and fall to the earth. With admirable ingenuity Basil suggested that the firmament, which appears hemispherical on the underside, may, like a building enclosing a dome-shaped bath, have a flat roof.
Although the argument for the presence of and the description of the waters may seem somewhat far-fetched to us, it indicates both the seriousness with which the early Christian theologians treated the biblical account of creation and the way they used the account to break with the unacceptable idea of the division of the world into an eternal and immutable heavenly sphere and a corruptible earthly realm.
Basil supposed that since Moses gave no discussion concerning the shape of the earth and did not say, for example, that its circumference contains one hundred and eighty thousand stades, such knowledge was quite unnecessary.
[Nebelsick, Harold P. 1985. Circles of God, Theology and Science from the Greeks to Copernicus. Scottish Academy Press, Edinburgh. p. 94]
Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. after 408) lacked appreciation of the cosmology of the philosophers, and depended upon Scripture instead. Nebelsick wrote:
The heaven which God created on the first day is a two-storied structure. There are waters above the heavens. The storeys themselves are divided by a ceiling in between them. The upper storey consists of fire without matter which was analogous to an angel, a spirit without a body. The lower storey is composed of fire and matter. Providence has arranged things in such a way that the heat of the fire moves downwards in order to warm the earth rather than moving upwards as is the case with fires on earth. The heaven we see is the lower heaven which was created on the second day. It is in the form of an envelope or bladder, the outside "skin" of which was composed of crystalline, congealed water to resist the fire of the sun, the moon, and the stars. The inside of the crystalline, congealed water structure is occupied by fire. For the present and until the eschaton, the water protects the heaven from dissolving or burning in the heat. On the last day, it will be used to quench the sun, moon, and stars.
[Nebelsick, p. 97-98]
On Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus (d. 394) Nebelsick wrote:
Like Severian, Diodore relied on Scripture for his supposition that there must be two heavens. The lower heaven subsists with the earth and forms the roof of the earth. The roof of the lower heaven forms the floor of the upper one. Heaven, therefore, could not be a sphere surrounding the earth but is rather a tent or vault above it.
[Nebelsick, p. 99]
Eusebius Hieronymus, better known as St. Jerome, (391-406) translated the Bible into Latin, producing the standard text known as the Vulgate, which had a great influence in Europe in later centuries.
Before Jerome's translation appeared, several Latin versions of the scriptures were in circulation. The books of the O.T. had been translated from the Septuagint. There were major discrepancies between the various versions.
Jerome was educated in Rome, and studied under the grammmarian Aelius Donatus. He became a priest, and was secretary to Pope Damasus I from 382-385. In the year 383 Pope Damascus asked Jerome to produce a new, uniform edition of the Bible. Jerome's work was distinguished by his use of the Hebrew text, but he also had the LXX and earlier Latin versions available to him. The prefaces to his work show he was as much an editor of the earlier texts as a translator and adapter. Jerome's version of the scriptures was widely used after about the sixth century.
An ascetic, who favoured monasticism, and celibacy, he worked in a monastery in Bethlehem. Apparently, Jerome supposed that the sun and moon were living beings, and he thought biblical geography required that Jerusalem was at the center of the earth.
When it came to translating Genesis 1:8, Jerome needed a word other than "caelum" for the sky; to say "And God called the caelum caelum" would not do. The word he selected was "firmamentum," which was a reasonable translation of the Greek word "stereoma." But in Old Latin, firmamentum was not used for the sky at all. In Classical Latin, such as that of Julius Caesar, for example, "firmamentum" meant "a support", and could refer to "the strong point in an argument".
Augustine (354-430) thought the study of astronomy was secondary to theology. He introduced an imaginative explanation for the heavenly waters. They were there, he said, to cool the fast moving sphere of Saturn!
The worship of the traditional pagan gods was generally abandoned in the late 4th century AD and the pagan temples demolished, statues of the gods disfigured, and the priesthoods disappeared. Some temple sites were converted to Christian shrines, and idols of various Hellenistic gods were renamed as Christian saints and martyrs.
The church fathers mentioned above chose to support a flawed cosmology, which today is completely discredited. Their writings on the subject are viewed today as quaint curiosities. No one believes them. This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, in chapter 34, when he wrote "For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood." [Isa. 34:2-3]
I suggest the opinions of men such as those cited above about cosmology are the "slain" in Isaiah's prophecy. They embraced the pagan philosophy which Paul warned against.
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
What credibility is there in what they wrote about the natural world? They followed a "vain deceit." The "sword" of God's word fell upon them, in the scientific revolution, and destroyed their imaginary universe.
Doug
Rev 5:1-2 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
As I said before, I believe the sealed book in the hand of the one sitting on the throne is the book that Daniel was instructed to seal up....
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
......so that the Revelation of John is the opening of the sealed book. The opening of each subsequent seal is like the turning of pages in the vision. Notice, at the end of the revelation ...
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book(biblio -"roll" as in a scroll, writing): for the time is at hand.
If you line up the trumpets and the bowls, you see that several line up, alternately (Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up(teleo-finished/completed) the wrath of God.
Trumpet #2 a third of the seas turned to blood - initiated
Bowl #2 all of the seas turn to blood - completed
Trumpet#2 a third of the rivers and fountains turned to blood - initiated
Bowl #3 all the rivers and fountains turned to blood - completed
Trumpet #7 Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever
Bowl #7 Rev 16:15-18 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Notice also that immediately before the seventh trumpet sounds a voice from heaven shouts "Come up here" and the two witnesses are raised and ascend "in a cloud"(the dead in Christ rise first). Then it says this is the second woe, the third(which is the 7th trump) cometh "quickly"(tachu" immediately, suddenly)
Rev 11:12-14 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
So, I believe that the trumpets, the bowls, the vision of the two witnesses, the vision of the sun clothed woman and the dragon, and the vision of the towering messenger are all parallel(simultaneously occurring timelines...stories happening alongside and with each other). They are also age-during realities that consummate at the second coming and glorious appearing of Jesus.
At the "last trumpet" (7th) the mystery of God is finished. Why? No More Mystery. Christ in you the hope of glory is declared to the entire universe by the resurrection of those who are "His at his appearing" - the revelation of the sons of God. The open authority of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of priests restoring the creation from futility and ushering in the just(meted out in measure as deserved) punishments of God begins. The restitution of all things will be the openly declared will and work of God, as all the enemies are being made subject to His feet by the rod of iron.
The 7th bowl is introduced with the words, "Behold I come as a thief" and the words "It is done"(It hath come! YLT)
Other stuff:
The two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years
The two witesses call down plagues as often as they like (perhaps 7 trumpets and 7 bowls), and when the beast that comes up from the pit overcomes them they lay in the streets for 3.5 days, until a voice cries out "Come up Here"(the voice of the arch angel) and they ascend into heaven in a cloud( He will come with ten thousands upon ten thousands of His saints) Notice then it says
(Rev 11:14,15) The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Then the seventh angel sounded(This is the last trumpet); and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
Quote from: eaglesway on September 19, 2009
So, I believe that the trumpets, the bowls, the vision of the two witnesses, the vision of the sun clothed woman and the dragon, and the vision of the towering messenger are all parallel(simultaneously occurring timelines...stories happening alongside and with each other). They are also age-during realities that consummate at the second coming and glorious appearing of Jesus.
At the "last trumpet" (7th) the mystery of God is finished. Why? No More Mystery. Christ in you the hope of glory is declared to the entire universe by the resurrection of those who are "His at his appearing" - the revelation of the sons of God. The open authority of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of priests restoring the creation from futility and ushering in the just(meted out in measure as deserved) punishments of God begins. The restitution of all things will be the openly declared will and work of God, as all the enemies are being made subject to His feet by the rod of iron.
The 7th bowl is introduced with the words, "Behold I come as a thief" and the words "It is done"(It hath come! YLT)
Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Why would Christ warn us about "keeping our garments"? Especially in this context of the battle of Armageddon?
Obviously, the "garments" mentioned here are not literal garments, but symbolic, and represent the righteousness and truth that comes from Christ. Paul spoke of "having your loins girt about with
truth." If we defend false theories and interpretations, we may end up on the wrong side! That is what the battle of Armageddon is about. It is a spiritual struggle. Armageddon is mentioned in the very next verse.
Clothes are also what Christ refers to in Mat. 24:17-18. Evidently, the battle of Armageddon is about clothes! Are we going to go down to our house to get our old clothes, or receive new ones from Christ?
Doug
Doug, mostly, I agree with you. If you read my earlier posts in the thread, you will see that I have been saying that we are "in the day" and we must "walk in the light as children of the day". Yet, many of these prophecies are eternally true in "heaven" but also significant in time- not all, but some. To ignore the in time relevance of prophecy almost denies the prophecies of the old testament and their being symbolis AND historical prophecy. Obviously the revelation of John was not written for the saints of the last generation alone but for all the children of the day in this age. However, understanding the seals and the trumpets and the bowls is about the construction of the prophetic scroll and its revelation. In the apocalypse of God there is the "was, the is and the will be" which are like wheels within wheels in understanding. There are prophecies in the old testament that look through the current event straight throu the revelation of Christ and on to the end of the ages in a matter of a few verses. Always in every "Now" there is a "Today, if you hear My voice" revelation that grants access to His rest, the finished work. The finished work in our generation is "to be and to do" what His voice is saying. (Let Him who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit IS SAYING to the churches). There are literal and historic aspects of the gospel to be fulfilled in the outworking of the ages which Paul calls in Ephesians THE ADMINISTRATION OF thE FULNESS OF TIMES. To deny the connection between the ages and the progressive revelation of the mystery - "His kind intention which He purposed in Himself"- is not revelation, it is a failure to understand several key aspects of the revelation of God which is in eternity/ainios and also in earth forming the purposes of EACH UNFOLDING GENERATION. The fact of whether you think the day is historicly connected to certain scientific discoveries in the 1700s and I think it is historicly connected to a wider spiritual event- well thats a difference we probably won't agree on. :dontknow:
Peace in Jesus
Example, In every generation the Bride is coming down out of heaven. In every generation the "one new man" stands, feet on the land and the sea, Scroll of the eternal good news in hand, clothed with the clouds (surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses), a rainbow surrounding the "head" in heaven. In every generation the woman(mature Bride) clothed with the sun(Christ in you the hope of glory) is birthing a manchild(till we all attain to the unity of the faith unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ) as the dragon sends out a flood (tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,craftiness of men in deceitful scheming) to consume her "seed" (overcomers) who destroy the works of the devil, and are caught up to His throne (seated with Christ in the heavenly realms above all principality and power). I happen to believe at the end of this age there will be an open fulfillment of these prophecies as the body rises to meet the Lord at the "DAY" which will be consummated in history, even as Jesus was "foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you."
As the dawn was born in a manger in Bethlehem and shone from a cross outside Jerusalem and was raised from the dead on the THIRD DAY. I believe the full noon will shine at the end of this age. This in no way limits the importance of the message of "being clothed", because as you said, the day will come upon those who sleep in the darkness and take them unaware. In the unfolding moment of God called "Now", in the unfolding Day called "Today, on the day when the reaper catches unaware(no man knows the day of his demise), or on the day (if we are awake in the day) when we shall receive the balance on the pledge of our inheritance, the redemption of our bodies and the revelation of the sons of God.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2009
In every generation the woman(mature Bride) clothed with the sun(Christ in you the hope of glory)
The woman in Rev. 12 is the church, and her location is in heaven, as the church consists of all the saints, who are represented by the stars. [Dan. 12:3]. Her crown of 12 stars represents the apostles, and also identifies her as the Israel of God. Paul said that believers "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.In this prophecy, heaven and earth are symbolic; heaven is God's throne; [Isa. 66:1] earth represents the world. A third of the stars are drawn by the tail of the dragon, and cast to the earth; they represent those believers who abandon their faith, and return to the world. The sun which clothes the woman in heaven represents the gospel; the sun is called a
great light in Genesis 1; the gospel of Jesus was also called a
great light.Matthew 4:16-17
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Other prophecies that say the sun will be turned to darkness, before the day of the Lord [Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20] which pictures the gospel becoming obscured by false teaching. Early in the church's history, the pure gospel taught by the apostles was merged with pagan philosophy, and superstitions, such as the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, which fulfilled the prophecy of Joel about the sun turning to darkness. Jesus said, when the "tares" are taken away at the end of the age, the saints will "shine forth as the sun."
Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.The role of the church is to be the light of the world, especially at the end of the age, which is a time of gloominess, and clouds, and darkness.
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.Quote from: eaglesway
is birthing a manchild(till we all attain to the unity of the faith unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ)
The male child of the woman in Rev. 12:5 is caught up to heaven, from where he rules all nations with a rod of iron. From Psalm 2, we can see that this male child is Christ.
Psalm 2:8-10
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.Jesus said all power, in heaven and earth, had been given to him. [Mat. 28:18] Some dispute this, and say the church could not be "the mother of Jesus." J. N. Darby and his followers, for example, deny that the woman in Rev. 12 is the church. Instead, they claim the woman represents Israel after the flesh. In Gal. 4:24-27, there is a contrast between the earthly Jerusalem (represented by Hagar the bondwoman in Abraham's house, Sarah's handmaid) and the heavenly Jerusalem (represented by Sarah, the freewoman). The dispensationalists say that the church did not give birth to Christ. But Jesus himself identified those who "do the will of my Father which is in heaven" as his brethren, and his mother.
Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. The scripture shows the church is the spiritual "mother of us all." The saints are brethren of Jesus. We all have the same mother, the church.
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Quote from: eaglesway
as the dragon sends out a flood (tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,craftiness of men in deceitful scheming) to consume her "seed" (overcomers) who destroy the works of the devil, and are caught up to His throne (seated with Christ in the heavenly realms above all principality and power).
A torrent of conflicting interpretations of prophecy is spewed forth from the mouth of the serpent. Some of it is misinterpretation of this prophecy of the woman in heaven. The prophecy depicts Satan in heaven, but there is great spiritual warfare, and eventually he is cast out of heaven to the earth, and all his angels with him.
Doug