Sky receding like a scroll

[Doug]

Revelation 6:14-16   
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
   
If the mountains are promises in the Bible, what are the dens and rocks people hide in?

These are dens and rocks in mountains that have been moved from their places. They are displaced from their true positions.

Mountains represent promises of God. People want to be included in the promises of God, which they don't understand. Thus they say, "fall on us," to the rocks of displaced mountains. They want to wear the label of Christian, without living as Jesus taught, and doing what Jesus said.
   
Some trust in their baptism as an infant. Is not this a "displaced mountain"? The waters of baptism picture the death of the old man, and rising up to a new life in Christ. Baptism was never intended for infants. John the Baptist told Jews to repent, and bring forth fruits of repentance. Can infants repent?
   
In the NT, the Mosaic covenant was associated with Mount Sinai; the Olivet Discourse of Jesus is associated with the Mount of Olives. The temple is associated with Mount Zion, and since the church is the new temple of God, it too is called Mount Zion (or Sion), in Hebrews 12:22.

Zechariah said the Mount of Olives will be cleaved in the midst, and half of it moves to the north, and half to the south, forming a valley between. [Zech. 14:4] IMO, the two halves of the mountain represent preterism and dispensationalism, which misinterpret the prophecy Jesus gave to his disciples on the Mount of Olives. This is an example of a mountain being figuratively moved out of its position. And John's book of Revelation was written when he was on the Island of Patmos, Rev. 1:9, so perhaps the island of Patmos could represent the prophecies of the book of Revelation. It too has been figuratively moved from its position; for example, dispensationalists deny that most of the prophecies in Revelation apply to the church in the present age. They claim that from Rev. 4 to the end of chapter 18 applies to Jews, in a future tribulation.

Notice how dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside interpreted the prophecy about the heavens being rolled up as a scroll, in Rev. 6:14:

After the true church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, there will be a vast host of unconverted ecclesiastics left behind; thousands of church dignitaries, both Protestant and Romanist, who, though looked upon as guides in things spiritual, shall be manifested as utterly bereft of divine life--professional clergymen who, despite their pretentions and exalted calling, are simply natural men intruding into spiritual things, like the Philistines of old who dwelt in the land of Canaan and gave their name, Palestine, to the whole thing as though it belonged of right to them, while all the time they were unwarrented intruders of Egyptian descent. These are the stars who will be hurled from their places of power and eminence in that awful day of the wrath of the Lamb, and who, apostatizing from the last vestiges of Christianity, will soon become leaders in the worship of Antichrist.

Thus the heavens, the ecclesiastical powers of every description, will depart as a scroll when it is rolled up. The whole fabric of Christendom will be wound up as something obsolete and out of date.

Lectures on the Book of Revelation, By H. A. Ironside. 1919. p. 117-118.
http://rarebooks.dts.edu/viewbook.aspx?bookid=1481

Ironside supposed that the events in Rev. 6 apply to a future era. These teachings rob the church of the light that prophecy provides, which reveals how God's plan has been working out in history. I suggest the heavens departing as a scroll that is rolled together applies to the rise of modern science, and the demise of the old cosmology in which the rigid sky revolved around the earth each day. A scroll that is rolled together stops rotating, and that is precisely what happened; the revolutions of the heavens ceased, and the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth.

Dispensationalists like Ironside move the "mountains" and "islands" of prophecy; they misinterpret the prophecies meant for the church today, and apply them to Jews in the future! And IMO, preterists make a similar mistake. They move mountains and islands out of their positions too, when they say those prophecies refer to Jews in the first century AD!

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: OR........as the heavens represent Christ's "celestial" flesh/understanding, which is also represented as the second set of curtains or veil that is between the inner court and Holy of Holies (cherubim, which were woven into the veil, were heavenly creatures), this "scroll" was "rolled up" because it was rent.

This "scroll" that had no beginning and no end, is/was the "garment" of life, that was rent, that was SHED forth (as a garment was dropped, ie. like Elijah) from Him on the day of Pentecost, and on every "day" of Pentecost since, ie. when someone receives His garment. He has life to give, but the Father has life everlasting.

This "garment" too is destined to be rent because it is in part, designed to bring us to the Father, that where He is, we might be also, not figuratively by dispensation, but literally by appropriation. God the Father is IN Christ, who is IN us, reconciling all men unto Himself. Christ acts as veil or covering for the Father. He is the mediator between God and man, ie. the covering that both keeps from seeing the Father, and shows us the Father, in due season.

Which is why all those that are not bondslaves of His LOVE (firstfruits) want to be hid from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, which is in the Holy of Holies, where the Father sits, and which is/will be visible once the veil is completely rent again in a people, a firstfruits company.

The dens, ie. something hollowed out (by His hand) to contain something (inner court; ones of the now spiritual priesthood/Pentecost). The rocks/letter (outer court; ones still in Passover/literal understanding of the letter only). Neither will be able to provide excuse in that day, as once those who have NOT put off THEIR garments (our flesh is the garment of His Spirit within), but instead have been swallowed up of immortality, it will be evident who has gone on unto perfection (to know the Father).

And so it was written, to rend your hearts (Christ in your heart, the hope of glory) and not your garments (natural bodies thru death).

How is He rent? By the Father's hand as we have been obedient to lay down the titles, giftings, offices, that we gained thru Christ and come out into the wilderness to die/be rent/made of no reputation/take on the image of sinful flesh. No man can come to the Father, except the Father call him. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

How wonderful He is to His faithful Cardinal.


Come out of her my people.
He brings us out so he can bring us in.
For the mantle of God is no longer upon man but within.
When we see Him we shall be like Him.
Card! It's amazing!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN Beloved Servant  :myahoo:

[Livelystone]

Paul understood the heavens rolling up as a scroll as when he stated WHEN THAT WHAT IS PERFECT IS COME THAT WHAT IS IMPERFECT IS DONE AWAY WITH.

The key to this is in the OT where we see the dimensions of the roll (10x20) that duplicate the imperfect Holy Room of the tabernacle where we see in part versus as a child in the outer-court with no vision

However when that what is perfect is come (The Holiest 10x10) that what is imperfect (10x20) is done away with

The 10x20 room is where Satan still presents himself with the sons of God (see Job) but the Holiest is where God appears and anything less than perfect such as the flesh that is not under linen (righteousness) with the mind of Christ (the High Priest head piece) is destroyed .........

The 10x20 is a picture of today and the church where Satan gets his authority over the masses from the voices coming from the pulpits who make up the tail of the dragon and are the prophets who teach lies also described in the OT.

All of the "revelation revealed" from the Book of Revelations are somewhere in the OT between the Law, Exodus the Prophets and the Psalms

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Doug......perfect there and complete are the same. The in-part realm is incomplete because they do not yet have the Father, which is why it says you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son. This is why the in-part realm is to end. It's Jesus/outer court, Christ/inner court, and Lord/Holy of Holies.

Also, Noah was 600 when the end of all flesh came before Him/Father. It's been 6000 years from Adam and the end of all flesh has come before Him before in the inner court before the veil, as we've progressed during the 2 days or 2000 years assigned to the inner court realm. When the sons of God came before God and Satan was among them, it's the same pattern as all flesh coming before Him (who is "in" the Holy of Holies in the pattern).

Jesus said, tell Herod that fox that today and tomorrow (2 days/2000 years) I will do cures and cast out devils, but the 3rd day I will be perfected/completed. Blessings....

[Doug]

A great variety of interpretations has been proposed for John's prophecy of the heavens rolling up as a scroll, all of which "move the mountains and islands out of their places," as they misinterpret the prophecies that the mountains and islands represent. Here are some more examples.

Thomas Rawson Birks

The following clauses may be compared with Isaiah xxxiv. 4. Rev. vi. 12.

"And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll, and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig-tree.

"And lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig-tree casteth her untimely figs when it is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heavens departed as a scroll, when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

These passages throw equal light upon the meaning of the terms used by St. Peter, whether they refer to literal, or figurative and political changes. The heaven, which is rolled together like a sheet of parchment, cannot denote the starry spaces, but the visible firmament, the blue expanse, which is spread out "as a tent to dwell in." When the stars fall to the earth, as a fig-tree casteth her figs in a mighty wind; the words must denote an atmospheric convulsion, in which the lights of the sky seem to be dashed violently to and fro, till they disappear; for no one will suppose that all the suns and planets of science can be precipitated upon the earth. The elements, in 2 Peter iii. 10, 12, answer to "the host of heaven" in Isaiah; and their melting with fervent heat implies the sudden disappearance of these landmarks of the sky from the senses of mankind, amidst the lurid gloom or fiery splendour that will seize on the lower firmament.

But what meaning are we to assign to the statement, that "the earth and the works therein shall be burned up?" The earth, Mr. Brown argues, as distinguished from the works therein, doubtless means the body of the globe, in contrast with all that adorns its surface. "If this is burnt up, it must be something more searching and fundamental than that process of burning, to which some would debase this magnificent prediction." But the words really prove just the reverse, that the solid substance of the globe is not spoken of, but its surface only. The works therein, not thereupon, are to be burned. We may infer that the earth is viewed as an extended surface. This indeed is the constant usage of Scripture, both in the Old and New Testament. Hence the threefold division of the universe--things in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth. It is plainly regarded as a visible expanse, capable of being inhabited by man, with its hemisphere of light above, and of darkness below. The universal language of our senses is borrowed, to express a moral and spiritual truth, no less comprehensive and universal. To introduce the notion of the globular and solid substance of the earth, interpolates an idea, plainly foreign from the scope of the texts, which destroys all the force and symmetry of the description. The burning of the earth below, the rolling up of the heavens like a vesture, and the falling of the stars from heaven to earth, are three consistent parts of one sublime picture, and exclude all reference to the solid substance of our planet, or to the heavens of science. The earth means that habitable surface, spread out for the use of man, of which the figurative foundations have been laid firmly by the hand of God, in those laws which regulate the human senses, and the structure of the solar system.

Outlines of unfulfilled prophecy, an inquiry into the Scripture testimony respecting the 'good things to come'.
Thomas Rawson Birks, 1854. p. 254.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CJYCAAAAQAAJ

Robert H. Mounce

Isaiah spoke of the starry host falling like withered leaves from the vine (Isa 34:4). It is one of the signs that immediately precede the coming of the Son of man (Matt 13:25-26). The falling of stars upon the earth could mean but one thing to the ancient--the end had come. The sky will recede like an unrolled papyrus scroll that, should it break in the middle, would roll quickly back on either side. The removing of every mountain and island from its place has no parallel in apocalyptic writing. It may have been suggested by Nah 1:5 ("the hills melt away") or Jer 4:24 ("the mountains ... were quaking; all the hills were swaying").

We need not expect that these cataclysmic events will take place in a completely literal sense, although whatever they depict is sufficient to drive people in terror to the mountains, where they plead for death rather than face the wrath of the Lamb (vv. 15-17)--an unlikely consequence if they symbolize no more than social and political upheavals. Elsewhere in Revelation people are pictured as so adamant in pursuing their own goals that neither demonic plague (9:20) not scorching heat is sufficient to make them repent. Nothing short of the awesome dissolution of the world itself will strike terror to the heart of people in the last days.

The Book of Revelation
By Robert H. Mounce p. 151.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=6FAookts4MUC

Peter Pett

For 'the heaven removed as a scroll' and 'as a fig tree casts its unripe figs' see 'all the host of heaven shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll, and all their host shall fade away as the leaf fades from the vine, and as a fading leaf from a fig tree' (Isaiah 34.4). This latter specifically refers to God's judgment on Edom and their neighbours, so that it was not seen as literally happening, and did not refer to the end times. It was metaphorical for the devastation they would suffer.

The apocalyptic language in Ezekiel 32 (especially compare verses 7 and 8 with 9 and 10) has specifically in mind the downfall of Pharaoh and of Egypt at the hands of the Babylonians, including the surrounding nations. It is then followed by a description of the fate of other nations. There is nothing to indicate that it is specifically related to 'the day of the Lord' or to a period called 'the end times'. These nations did suffer these fates historically and we must hesitate before we assume that fulfilment in history is so irrelevant that we must push everything into the context of the 'end times'.

Isaiah 13 - 14 (see 13.10, 13) refers to the downfall of Babylon, and while the language is extravagant it is specifically said to be by the Medes (13.17) which was historically correct, but in this case there is a movement on to the end times for in 13.19-22 the prophet 'sees' beyond the times in which he lives to the final destruction of Babylon, when it will be destroyed to rise no more. From its earliest history (Genesis 11.9) Babylon was a symbol greater than itself, (like Rome later), and therefore its final doom was to be total. In the end the prophet knew that this was what must happen. What he did not know was when or how.

Isaiah 34 (see verse 4) refers to the downfall of Edom and 'all the nations' i.e. the nations around Edom who have troubled Israel, specifically the people of His 'curse', assigned to destruction (34.5) as is evidenced by the fact that the rest of 'the nations' do not take part but are called in to witness the event - 34.1. While it refers to the day of the Lord's vengeance it is revenge on Edom for their behaviour towards Israel (34.8). It is not said to be in the end times, nor is there any reason for suggesting that it is (except to those who quite unreasonably put ALL prophecy in the last days). 

Commentary on the Book of Revelation
By Peter Pett
http://www.geocities.com/revelationofjohn/index.html

Joseph A. Seiss

5. "And the heaven recoiled as a scroll rolling itself together." We have here the same particular heaven. With the prodigiess already named, the sky folds upon itself. The fastenings which held it outstretched, are loosed in the general convulsion, and it rolls up. Great, massive, rotary motion in the whole visible expanse, is signified, as if it were folding itself up to pass away forever. Some tell us that this never can literally happen, and that we are not therefore to expect it to be fulfilled in any physical fact. But why not? Does not Peter, in a plainly literal passage, tell us of just such commotions in the aerial heavens? Does he not say, in so many words, that they shall be loosed (***) and move with such a noisy rushing, after the manner of a tempest? And so significant and awful is to be the nature of the fact, that nearly all the prophets have taken notice of it, and foretell the same in language which we must monstrously pervert to understand in any other than a literal sense.

The Apocalypse: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation
By Joseph A. Seiss, p. 155.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=xHlNR_Pj7vUC

Uriah Smith

And the Heaven Departed as a Scroll. In this event our minds are turned to the future. From looking at the past and beholding the word of God fulfilled, we are now called to look at events before us, which are no less sure to come. Here is our position unmistakably defined. We stand between the 13th and 14th verses of this chapter. We wait for the heavens to depart as a scroll when it is rolled together. And these are times of unparalleled solemnity and importance; for how near we may be to the fulfillment of these things we know not.

This departing of the heaven as a scroll is what the evangelists call in the same series of events, the shaking of the powers of the heavens. Other scriptures give us further particulars concerning this prediction. From Heb. 12:25-27, Joel 3:16, Jer. 25 : 30-33, Rev. 16:17, we learn that it is the voice of God as he speaks in terrible majesty from his throne in Heaven, that causes this fearful commotion in earth and sky. Once the Lord spoke, when, with an audible voice, he declared to his creatures the precepts of his eternal law; and the earth shook. He is to speak again, and not only the earth will shake, but the heavens also. Then will the earth "reel to and fro like a drunkard;" it will be "disolved," and "clean broken down;" Isa. 24; mountains will move from their firm bases; islands will suddenly change their location in the midst of the sea; from the level plain will arise the precipitous mountain; and rocks will thrust up their ragged forms from earth's broken surface; and while the voice of God is reverberating through the earth, the direst confusion will reign over the face of nature.

Then will the world's dream of carnal security be effectually broken. Kings who, intoxicated with their own earthly authority, have never dreamed of a higher power than themselves, now realize that there is One who reigns King of kings; and the great men behold the vanity of all earthly pomp, for there is a greatness above that of earth; and the rich men throw their silver and gold to the moles and bats, for it cannot save them in that day; and the chief captains forget their little brief authority and the mighty men their might; and every bondman, who is in the still worse bondage of sin, and every freeman, all classes of the wicked, from the highest to the lowest, join in the general wail of consternation and despair. They who never prayed to Him whose arm could bring salvation, now raise an agonizing prayer to rocks and mountains to bury them forever from his presence. Fain would they now avoid reaping what they by a life of lust and sin had sown. Fain would they now shun the fearful treasure of wrath which they have been heaping up for themselves against this day. Fain would they bury themselves and their'catalogue of crimes in everlasting darkness. And so they fly to the rocks, caves, caverns, and fissures which the broken surface of the earth now presents before them. But it is too late. They cannot conceal their guilt nor escape the long-delayed vengeance.

"It will be in vain to call,
Rocks and mountains on us fall,
For His hand will find out all,
In that day."

The day which they thought never would come, has at last taken them as in a snare; and the involuntary language of their anguished hearts, is, "The great day of his wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand?" Before it is called out by the fearful scenes of this time, we pray you, reader, give your most serious and candid attention to this subject.

Many now affect to despise the institution of prayer. But at one time or another all men will pray. Those who will not now pray to God in penitence, will then pray to the rotks and mountains in despair. And this will be the largest prayer-meeting ever held. As you read these lines think whether you would like to have a part therein.

Adventists are now in the minority; but they will then be in the majority; for all the world will be Adventists. But alas! with the great mass their belief will come too late to do them any good.

Thoughts, critical and practical, on the book of Revelation
By Uriah Smith p. 150.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=pYUYAAAAYAAJ

Two of the authors quoted above, Birks and Seiss, connect Isaiah's prophecy of the heavens departing as a scroll to the apostle Peter's prophecy about the heavens passing away "with great noise." [2 Pet. 3:10] The heavens passing away with a great noise cannot refer to the heavenly bodies literally passing away, because there is no noise in space. It is completely silent up there, because there is no air. Peter, I think, refers to the demise of the old geocentric cosmology. That was accompanied by great commotion, and the rise of skepticism. Many abandoned their faith, because they supposed the Bible supported the flawed cosmology. The church was discredited because it had opposed Galileo and the heliocentric theory.

Doug

[Redlettervoice]

.
Doug, I can't "explain" it but He has given us an "understanding"
........the "great noise" is a "mature word" .....it will happen in
us as God takes us from that which "passes away" to that which
does not. 

[Doug]

Doug, I can't "explain" it but He has given us an "understanding"
........the "great noise" is a "mature word" .....it will happen in
us as God takes us from that which "passes away" to that which
does not. 

The "great noise" in 2 Peter 3:10 is the word "rhoizédon" in Greek.

Original Word: ῥοιζηδόν
Transliteration: rhoizédon
Phonetic Spelling: (hroyd-zay-don')
Short Definition: crashing

Some translations put "roar."

It can be compared, I think, with the noise mentioned by Joel. In Joel's prophecy of the locusts, the noise of the locusts is compared to the noise of chariots. "Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array." [Joel 2:5]

Chariots in Joel's time were probably quite noisy. Their wheels and axles, and the sound of horses, would make a loud, clattering sound, along with squeaking noises. The point is, there is no intelligence in it. This is how the apostle Peter describes the "noise" and the controversy about the Bible that was generated following the scientific revolution. People thought the Bible supported the geocentric cosmology, with its rigid firmament revolving around the earth. In the "enlightenment" men embraced science and abandoned faith. They failed to notice that the cosmology of the OT had become corrupted in the 2nd century BC.

Doug

[sheila]

2 Kings 6;17   

  Then Elisha prayed 'O'Lord open his eyes that he may see."

     Then the Lord opened the servants eyes; and he looked

   and saw..the hills full of horses and chariots of fire

   all around Elisha


   Hosea 11  They will follow the Lord, He will roar like a lion.

when He roars the children will come trembling from the west

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Sheila......surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses he was.....the Lord utters His voice, who shall hear it? Some said it thundered, ie. things shaking the heavens, too. Blessings....

[Doug]

In John's prophecy, the events of the sixth seal occur on "the great day," that elsewhere is called the "day of the Lord."

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The events of the sixth seal include the heaven departing "as a scroll when it is rolled together."

The events referred to in the prophecy of the apostle Peter, that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise," also occur in the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In the previous verses, Peter said that a "day" with God is as a thousand years, and "a thousand years" is as a day [2 Peter 3:8].

Since these events both occur on the day of the Lord, it is an excellent reason for supposing these prophecies refer to the same event.

Another prophecy that may refer to these same events is the prophecy of the 2,300 days, in Daniel 8:14. The angelic messenger in this verse says that after this period of time, the sanctuary would be "cleansed." The sanctuary, in the context, refers to heaven, the "place of God's sanctuary." The little horn of the goat grows tall, up to the stars, and casts stars to the earth, and the host of heaven, and tramples them.

The prophecy of the heavens being cleansed or "made right" after 2,300 days describes the scientific revolution. The rigid firmament, and planetary spheres of the ancient cosmology were swept away like old cobwebs, and men everywhere understood that the earth revolves on its axis, not the sky.

Daniel's vision was given in the third year of Belshazzar, probably around 550 BC. The time specified in Dan. 8:14 was 2,300 days, or "evening mornings," which are best interpreted as years. They began when the words were spoken, as the angel said "Unto 2,300 days, ... " No other start date is valid. Counting 23 centuries from the date of the vision, the period ends in the mid-eighteenth century. This was the very time when the old geocentric cosmology was abandoned; the work of Isaac Newton was translated into English and French about that time. That period is called the "Enlightenment" by philosophers. It was perhaps the most significant event in the history of man, since the resurrection of Jesus!

As Peter said, the day of the Lord comes like "a thief in the night." A thief in the night works when no one is aware of it; he escapes with his loot, without anyone noticing his presence. That is how the day of the Lord has come. It is here already, and spans several centuries! 

Doug

[eaglesway]

2Co 3:14-18  But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.  (15)  But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;  (16)  but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.  (17)  Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.  (18)  But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

I think there are many layers of veils. The carnal mind. Traditions of men. The lusts of the flesh. The arrogance of gnostic(knowledge based) religion. The foreskin of the heart that must be circumcised before we can receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God.

We have a new and living way within the veil having "Our hearts sprinkled clean(a type of repentance and faith...purge me with hyssop and I will be clean, the bitter herb of Psalm 51 was the way they applied the blood to the door post so that the death angel passed over) and our bodies washed with pure water (the washing of the water with the word, progressive sanctification). Even as the water actually parted for them, and they were sanctified(set apart...let my people go that they may worship me). In that sanctification they were able to move on toward the "rest" of God. yet they were sanctified again in the wilderness before they could "enter His rest", i.e. the "finished work" and the "promised possession."

Going with the type of the tabernacle, when the glory spilled out at the dedication by Solomon all the Levites fell out under the weight of glory, like Daniel and Ezekiel fell in the presence of the glory. At the appearing/coming of the Lord when the veil is rent, I believe the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea. All the veils that cover all the nations and peoples will be rent, an administration suitable to the fulness of time.

Isa 25:7  And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

We who are abiding "in Christ", in the "new and living way" of repentance and faith and progressive sanctification by grace through faith in the power of the Spirit -are already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms and will be revealed as sons at the Day of the Age. Knowing it doesn't qualify anyone for it tho. It is for the overcomers. Those who endure to the end "in Christ", which is simply the meekness, love, holiness, forgiveness and humility of the Lord.

[Livelystone]

Hello eaglesway

I liked your post a lot  :thumbsup:

Knowing that the Word made flesh 2000 years ago will be no different than the Word that becomes flesh first sown by Jesus into our hearts manifested again just as it was the first time does that not mean that the same knowledge of the Scriptures known by Jesus will be known by us?......... if not would we not have a contradiction instead being in agreement with God as Jesus always was?

That being said what about all those likenesses of spirt such as the eagle that many Christians like to identify themselves with........ when we have the same knowledge as the Lord will we still see ourselves as flesh tearing fowls whose young drink blood?

Or will we do away with all ego in order to be prepared to be shepherds whom will both care and love the sheep that will graze in the promised land while the wolves get carried away by "wings of a great eagle" to the wilderness to die?

I remember fathers of our faith such as Bill Britton who was so far ahead at his time that he like some here was an outcast with  a bad label yet today if he looked back would probably shake his head and wonder how he managed to write his "eagle saints arise".

Do we really want to be the one to carry the woman (church) off to the wilderness where she is fed doctrines of lies by the serpent or do we want to be separated and caught up to righteousness?

Blessings

Doug

[Redlettervoice]

Hello eaglesway

I liked your post a lot  :thumbsup:

Knowing that the Word made flesh 2000 years ago will be no different than the Word that becomes flesh first sown by Jesus into our hearts manifested again just as it was the first time does that not mean that the same knowledge of the Scriptures known by Jesus will be known by us?......... if not would we not have a contradiction instead being in agreement with God as Jesus always was?

That being said what about all those likenesses of spirt such as the eagle that many Christians like to identify themselves with........ when we have the same knowledge as the Lord will we still see ourselves as flesh tearing fowls whose young drink blood?

Or will we do away with all ego in order to be prepared to be shepherds whom will both care and love the sheep that will graze in the promised land while the wolves get carried away by "wings of a great eagle" to the wilderness to die?

I remember fathers of our faith such as Bill Britton who was so far ahead at his time that he like some here was an outcast with  a bad label yet today if he looked back would probably shake his head and wonder how he managed to write his "eagle saints arise".

Do we really want to be the one to carry the woman (church) off to the wilderness where she is fed doctrines of lies by the serpent or do we want to be separated and caught up to righteousness?Blessings

Doug

Doug! Doug! Doug!  "Where did you get "that?" Explain it will ya?
   Isn't she "nourished"
from the "face" of the serpent? ............she brought forth the "manchild."

Now the manchild rules with a "rod" of "iron" ..........

Think with me a moment..........does the ROD of Iron lead to "the love
of God?"

What think ye of this? ............

[Livelystone]

The church does bring forth the manchild who goes on into the promise land while the the church goes back into the wilderness where she is nourished (fed) from the face of the serpent (satan) who does so by speaking through his tail who are the prophets that teach lies  (false prophets,  teachers, pastors etc )......THE CHURCH GOING BACK INTO THE WILDERNESS IS THE SAME THING AS THE PRIESTS WHO FALL BACK TO THE OUTER COURT BECAUSE THEY WENT ASTRAY!!!!!!

Tell me sis....... would you rather go to the wilderness or to the promise land (heaven) ????? ....... the same thing with the man child going to heaven is seen with the son of the ass that Jesus rides back BECAUSE JESUS IS DIRECTING HIS STEPS into Jerusalem VERSUS the mother who is the church that even though she was loosed IS to stubborn, proud and cannot be taught CONSEQUENTLY SHE WAS NOT taken by Jesus back into Jerusalem

Ezekiel 39:17
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

This is just like eagles who tear flesh to feed their young who drink blood (that is a sin ) mouth to mouth and are unclean animals who we are not to touch let alone be fed by

You have heard something that is a lie for so long that you have accepted it as truth  :thumbdown:.............. you need to reconsider your position here sis....... if you do not believe me at this time go study the law because drinking blood is a sin !!!!!

If you first heard it in the church it is probably a lie !!!

Blessings

Doug

[rosered]

 

Hi Doug , the only exception to the rule is this ,  Jesus born of woman under the Law / Mary symbolic  of that and concieved by the Holy Spirit 
this is bringing in the  first Man Child / Fristfruits to God in  Rev  :thumbsup:

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.   

  the hard saying stumbled many Jesus is the   the rock of offence and stumbling block for many  born as slaves under the law of moses / servitude 

  it was the declaring of the New and living way , by the Spriit 
   the blood /life in the blood   is the NEW WINE  of the new covenant  .. and the   flesh of Christ is the  Bread of heaven   , turning the  hearts of stone to bread   /   Jesus Flesh /heart

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. 

  just helping sista Red out here ..  :icon_flower:   hope you dont mind

[Livelystone]

Amen Rosered........ the life (spirit) is in the blood and the soul is of the body (why Paul said there are celestial bodies (souls) and terrestrial bodies (our "earth suits")

That is exactly why we are not to drink any other blood (life) than that of Jesus.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I can see what you're saying Doug; the 'church' IS going back into the outer court, if they do not press in AT THIS TIME to go into the Holy of Holies presence of the Father. He has shown me this too. Blessings.....

[Beloved Servant]

 
:cloud9: I can see what you're saying Doug; the 'church' IS going back into the outer court, if they do not press in AT THIS TIME to go into the Holy of Holies presence of the Father. He has shown me this too. Blessings.....


                                                www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSIs1MHdFQY

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, and the way of the Lord IS being prepared as His Spirit moves the stones away from our hearts........Blessings....

[Doug]

Does heaven represent "rulers," and earth a "nation" in Isaiah?

In an article available at: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/som/5_18.htm
on "Heaven & Earth and the Law Have Passed Away," David B. Curtis says,

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;

The verses cited don't support the claims made about them by Curtis. Instead, God proclaims, for the whole universe to hear, that his own children have rebelled against him! "Heaven and earth" simply means "everyone," or "all things;" the world. There is no indication at all that rulers and people are meant by heaven and earth.

Later in the article, Curtis quotes Isaiah 24:3-6 and 19-20, and says:

What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. ... Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.

Neither do those verses support his claims, IMHO. It is not at all clear that "earth" refers to Israel in these verses. The chapter follows a prophecy about the judgment of Tyre, and may simply be a continuation of the previous prophecy.

Curtis quotes Isaiah 34:4-5, which is from a chapter about the judgment of Edom.

All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

Curtis comments:

This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally. God says, "His sword will be bathed in heaven," then explains what He means by saying, "It shall come down on Edom." The NIV puts it this way, "My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed." So, God speaks of His sword being bathed in heaven, meaning the nation Edom, not the literal heaven. Edom shall be rolled up like a scroll.

So, from these statements by Curtis, Israel is represented by the earth, and Edom is represented by heaven. But why would Edom be represented by heaven? That would be very strange!

These conclusions by Curtis contradict his previous claim that heaven represents "rulers" and earth a "nation."

In the journeys of the Israelites after they came out of Egypt, the nation of Edom was a barrier to them, on their way to the promised land. The king of Edom refused to allow the Israelites to pass through their land. After that, the people of Edom were traditional enemies of Israel. [Numbers 20:14-21]

In chapter 34, Isaiah refers to Edom in a figurative way, as representing the enemies of the church; those who hinder Christians from obtaining their promised inheritance. The sword of God comes down on them!

Preterism and dispensationalism, along with other "isms" that hinder Christians from discovering the truth about Bible prophecy, may be represented by "Edom" symbolically in Isaiah's prophecy. In the scientific revolution in the eighteenth century, the sword of God came down on those who taught the geocentric cosmology, whether within, or out of the church. The papacy was discredited, as the Roman Catholic Church had opposed the heliocentric theory, and had put Galileo under arrest for teaching it.
   
Doug

[eaglesway]

With all due respect and with no desire to create an ongoing debate.....I would like to say that my perspective on the woman is that she is clothed with the sun (full of glory, clothed in the manifest presence, Filled with the Spirit) and gives birth to the manchild. I believe she is the fulfillment of Ephesisns 4.....Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Son of God.

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

The harlot church rides on the beast in Babylon. The Bride unites with the groom and gives birth.She is carried into the wilderness on the wings of a great eagle.

Psa 91:1-4  He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

She is nourished(perhaps by teaching, even as the 120 were taught in preparation for the new age born at pentecost), perhaps, "made ready", for her King and Betrothed is coming. A chaste virgin without spot wrinkle or blemish.

Hos 2:16-23  And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi(Husband); and shalt call me no more Baali (Master). .........
(19)  And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.  I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD......

Hos 6:1-3  Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning (2 Pet 1:19); and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth(James 5:7; Jn 15:1; Hos 2:22,23).

    Also, I think that there are many mountains that typify many different manifestations of babylon. Edom is the mountain of Esau(Mt. Seir Gen 36:8,9), who sold his birthright for a morsel of pottage, representing those who teach godliness as a means of gain and any who have "sold out" the truth of the gospel, which is, being conformed to the image of Christ, partakers of the divine nature, Sons of God (Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest). There is also Mt Sinai, the mountain of Ishmael and Hagar, representing those who have a supernatural birth but reproduce through union with the flesh, and law and are in bondage(not set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God)and whose sons are always in conflict(Gal 4; Gen 16:12). There is wisdom from above, (our "mother" the Jerusalem from above is free) full of mercy and good fruit, sown in peace by peacemakers(sons)... There is wisdom from below, earthly, soulical, demonic (full of selfish ambition and bitter jealousy)

   The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.

     Mic 4:1-4  But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

The deliverers shall ascend Mt Zion to judge the mountain of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord's Ob 1:21

[Doug]

    Also, I think that there are many mountains that typify many different manifestations of babylon. Edom is the mountain of Esau(Mt. Seir Gen 36:8,9), who sold his birthright for a morsel of pottage, representing those who teach godliness as a means of gain and any who have "sold out" the truth of the gospel, which is, being conformed to the image of Christ, partakers of the divine nature, Sons of God (Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest). There is also Mt Sinai, the mountain of Ishmael and Hagar, representing those who have a supernatural birth but reproduce through union with the flesh, and law and are in bondage(not set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God)and whose sons are always in conflict(Gal 4; Gen 16:12). There is wisdom from above, (our "mother" the Jerusalem from above is free) full of mercy and good fruit, sown in peace by peacemakers(sons)... There is wisdom from below, earthly, soulical, demonic (full of selfish ambition and bitter jealousy)

   The mountain of the Lord(mt Zion) will be exalted above all the other mountains, the "little stone" will fill the earth, and the sons will be a preisthood to the nations.

Mountains is prophecy are often symbolic, and just as Zion and Jerusalem are symbolic of the church, in many prophecies, Edom is symbolic of the church's enemies.

The prophecies about Edom:

The sword of God will come down on Edom [Isaiah 34:5]; they were taken captive by Babylon [Jeremiah 25:21]; their wisdom will perish [Jeremiah 49:7-22]; they took vengeance against Judah [Ezekiel 25:12-14]; their cities will be desolate [Ezekiel 35:1-15]; they uttered blasphemies against the mountains of Israel, and claimed them for a possession [Ezekiel 35:12]; they committed violence against Judah, and shed innocent blood [Joel 3:19]; they participated in the destruction of Jerusalem; they cut off the way of escape for Jews; they delivered up those that remained to their enemies [Obadiah].

J. A. Alexander suggested in his comments on Isa:34, that Edom is symbolic: "Edom being particularly mentioned, as an enemy of ancient Israel peculiarly inveterate and malignant, and thence used to represent the whole class of such enemies."

[The earlier prophecies of Isaiah, Volume 1. By Joseph Addison Alexander. p. 556.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=v2NuAAAAIAAJ

In my view, Edom in prophecies such as Isa. 34 does not necessarily refer to Edomites after the flesh, just as Jerusalem and Judah in prophecy does not always mean the literal Jerusalem, but often applies to the church. In the second century BC, John Hyrcanus conquered Edom, and forced them to become Jews.

John Hyrcanus was the Hasmonean high priest of the Jews, 134 BC - 104 BC. He was the son of Simon Maccabaeus. In the first year of his reign, Jerusalem was besieged by the Seleucid king Antiochus VII Sidetes. The siege lasted for a year, and the outcome was a negotiated truce, which required payment of a tribute and participation by the Jews in the Seleucid war against the Parthians. When Antiochus was killed in battle, John Hyrcanus took advantage of the unrest in Seleucia to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, assert Judean independence, and expand his territory.

Wikipedia says: "Hyrcanus also initiated a military campaign against the Idumeans in Negev near Eilat. During this campaign Hyrcanus conquered Adora, Marisa and other Idumean towns (Ant.13.257). Hyrcanus then instituted forced conversions on the Idumeans. This was an unprecedented move for a Judean ruler."

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews IX, 2 says: "Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."

The Herodian Dynasty that ruled Judea after the Roman conquest in 37 BC was Edomite. Edomites joined with Jews in the rebellion of 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. After that, their nation disappeared. Later Jewish writings identify Edom with Rome.

I suggest, the prophetic symbolism of Edom is no longer the ancient enmity of those people to Jews, as they eventually became Jews (who opposed the apostles and the early church). Rather, Edom is symbolic of enemies of the saints, who hinder them from possessing the promises.

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Edom and Esau represent the flesh.....my  :2c:. Blessings....