So, WHY Exactly Is Abortion SO Wrong?? The Absurdity of ET and Annihilation

[Tim B]

Given the doctrines of ET and annihilation (Eternal Death) abortion is suddenly seen as the kindest thing a person can do for his or her child.

ET: abort your child and you get them a free pass to Heavenly bliss and a "get out of Hell free" card.

Annihilation: abort your child and you get them a free pass to Heavenly bliss and a "get out of annihilation in Hell free" card.

I mean, seriously, who could, given the circumstances, NOT abort their child??

However, given UR, suddenly everything changes. Considering Christ is the Savior of ALL men, there's no "getting out of Hell" cards and greater reason, I think, for NOT aborting your child.

Note: some people might say, why don't we abort them, even with a belief in UR, if it will buy them a quicker ticket into "Heaven"? But honestly, I'm not so sure aborted babies automatically "go" to "Heaven" from a UR perspective. It seems to me, for abortion to honestly be wrong, it cannot be so easy for a baby to be whisked away "into" Heaven. I mean, why should we not abort babies, if we can relieve them of this life, if they go straight to Heaven, even without any threat of Hell or annihilation?

My two theories, at least, the ones that sound reasonable: babies are reincarnated into another baby which is actually born into this world, or babies are "taught" in the "Heavenly realm" before being brought to be with God. (So abortion wouldn't be a "get into Heaven quick" card.) (Please don't be angry with any of these theories. After all, there just ideas.)

Besides the main point of this thread: mainly, the absurdity of calling abortion wrong given ET or annihilation doctrines, why do you think abortion is wrong (if you believe that, at least, certain abortions are wrong) given UR?

[WhiteWings]

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KsfyiiY5kTxuSM:http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm248/lunamag/et.jpg)
- If the baby wasn't one of the elect it goes to hell; abortion or not.
- It wasn't baptised.
- It didn't worship Jesus.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3Le6N8ABIWqG6M:http://www.thaimokit.com/photo/VinylModel/Vinyl-Robocop-ED209.jpg)
- It wasn't baptised.
- It didn't worship Jesus.

Note: some people might say, why don't we abort them, even with a belief in UR, if it will buy them a quicker ticket into "Heaven"? But honestly, I'm not so sure aborted babies automatically "go" to "Heaven" from a UR perspective.

All knees shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord.
I wonder how an fetus/embryo is going to do that.

or babies are "taught" in the "Heavenly realm" before being brought to be with God.

That's what I've read in a NDE.
But with abortion we aren't really speaking about a baby. I'm not denying it's life because it is. I'm just saying that life has a long way to go to understand even one verse.

why do you think abortion is wrong

I would be a liar if I wrote I'm really against abortion (bad bad me) but doesn't life belong to God? So abortion is like stealing life from God....?

[Raggedy Anne]

Tim,

You might not want to call it ED which has been emblazoned on our poor minds via television as the letters that stand for Erectile Dysfunction.

Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.........

Anne

[Beloved Servant]

Dear Anne,
I did not make that connection; watch few television commercials; do not consider myself of "poor mind."

[Raggedy Anne]

Dear Anne,
I did not make that connection; watch few television commercials; do not consider myself of "poor mind."

I don't watch much TV either - but my family does and the computer I use is in the family room where the T.V. is usually running.   Sometimes the blaring of the television with all the ads does wear on my mind, making it feel poor.  There must be hundreds of ads about ED!

anne

[Beloved Servant]

Please stop Anne.

[Raggedy Anne]

Please stop Anne.

Huh?

I have no idea what you are talking about.  But since you are in an apparent ill mood, I will refrain from posting in this thread again.

Anne

***Apologies to Tim that your thread was turned ugly.  Perhaps a moderator can clean up the mess.

[Beloved Servant]

Not in an ill mood at all.
The television commercial topic is ill.

[Tim B]

Tim,

You might not want to call it ED which has been emblazoned on our poor minds via television as the letters that stand for Erectile Dysfunction.

Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.........

Anne

xD There we go. I fixed the "ED" parts. Thanks for notifying me. I didn't think of it myself, even after posting it, but your post to me was a fair suggestion. lol

[Raggedy Anne]

Tim

In truth, my original comment was  just  kind of a little bit of goofing off said with tongue in cheek.  I didn't know anyone would be upset by it.    When I see ET - I always remember that alien movie called ET - even though I know in certain company it stands for 'Eternal Torment', not 'Extra-Terrestrial'.

Once again, sorry for fouling up your discussion. 

As for the abortion question - I think abortion is sad, but not as evil as the right wing makes it out to be.  The same group of people who use abortion as a political battering ram turn right around and condone all manner of war and bombs and toting guns around.   It is painfully easy to become a hypocrite.  Had my mother aborted me, I'd not have known it.  And I'd not have been a living soul.  That's the way I look at it.   I'm not "pro" abortion, but I am pro- reality and I am for keeping political and religious hypocrites out of the wombs of adult women.

Anne

[Beloved Servant]

ABORTION IS MURDER, BLOODY-GRUESOME MURDER


JUST MY OPINION


Raggedy ANNE, YOU MAY HAVE YOURS.

[Beloved Servant]

"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

[Tim B]

"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

Dude, the thoughts contained in that verse are creepy. Sounds like something from a horror film.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've shared this before but I was caught up by the Spirit in my sleep once, to "awaken" in the heavens, in the stars. I saw round orbs of light coming down with faces on them, from the heavenly realm. I was given to understand they were souls being sent to inhabit bodies that were being prepared for them. They were aware, and had joy, which I got from "hearing" their communications via the Spirit.

The scriptures say He formed us in our mother's womb. What He is forming is literally a vessel to dwell in. It's no different, in one respect, than Churchianity's doctrine of the best God has for any of us, is to die and go to "heaven", which ALSO robs Him of a vessel to dwell in. Both come short of the glory, which is CHRIST IN US, not Christ "up there" somewhere, and both have at their root, a murdering spirit.

But; the bottom line is, if they are not alive, then why do they have to kill them? Blessings....

[Cardinal]

"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10).

Dude, the thoughts contained in that verse are creepy. Sounds like something from a horror film.

:cloud9: Yeah, it is. The life is in the blood, ie. the life of unredeemed man is his soul. So his blood, his soul was crying out from the ground. Adam was a living soul. Blessings....

[Raggedy Anne]

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST:
The Blood That Speaks of Better Things

Hebrews - Chapter 12

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.  25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

[Raggedy Anne]

Been a whole lotta blood crying out from the ground since the American military machine has been murdering people by the millions too.   I sure am glad that our God is going to have mercy on us all, otherwise, we'd be up a creek without a paddle. 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isaiah 64: 6

[Tim B]

:cloud9: I've shared this before but I was caught up by the Spirit in my sleep once, to "awaken" in the heavens, in the stars. I saw round orbs of light coming down with faces on them, from the heavenly realm. I was given to understand they were souls being sent to inhabit bodies that were being prepared for them. They were aware, and had joy, which I got from "hearing" their communications via the Spirit.

The scriptures say He formed us in our mother's womb. What He is forming is literally a vessel to dwell in. It's no different, in one respect, than Churchianity's doctrine of the best God has for any of us, is to die and go to "heaven", which ALSO robs Him of a vessel to dwell in. Both come short of the glory, which is CHRIST IN US, not Christ "up there" somewhere, and both have at their root, a murdering spirit.

But; the bottom line is, if they are not alive, then why do they have to kill them? Blessings....

Nice! I like that story about the vision you had.  :bigGrin:

Churchianity seems to rob this world of a lot of things: one of them including hope. Atheism might be completely void of any hope, but the belief system of Churchianity is even less appealing (from an ET perspective): where you get the few happy saints in Heaven and the billions and billions forever damned to endless torment in Hell. It seems completely surrounded by so much pain, misery and death, as can be seen by the "Fruits of Hell" page that's located on Tentmaker. Is it not ironic that the very message Churchianity announces to the world, instead of bringing (very much) hope or peace, really makes things such as abortion more appealing? (As I stated in the OP.)

Part of mankind's problem, like you said, is looking for Christ somewhere, when he's really in US and in the HERE and NOW. Also, I think, followers of Jesus should focus more on LOVE rather than the (in perspective) tininess of sin.  :boyheart:

[HappyBoy!]

The points in the original post are very good ones.  I was the stereotypical fundamentalist right winger until a couple of years ago when I learned of UR.

The irony of being opposed to abortion while also believing in ET and that all babies go to heaven was inescapable.  Instinctively I knew abortion to be wrong, but the "greater good" would result from abortion if you assume 95%+ of all people go to hell forever as many fundamentalists (the ones I know anyway) do.  It seemed to me that abortion, not to mention all the miscarriages, was much more effective at winning souls than proclaiming the gospel.  Very ironic indeed.

Over the last two years since believing UR my views on abortion have been reinforced while my views on war have been changing.

I do find it easier to understand opposing views than I used to.

Thanks for the good points.

[Shadow]

Although I personally don't mind the doctrine of annihilation, as this IMO opinion would be my own personal preference, I'd rather cease to exist rather than live forever anyway, if I had been granted the opportunity I'd have chosen to never have come into existence in the first place  :HeartThrob:

Taking the logic of the hardcore fundamentalist ETers that claim it true love that God forces a persons to come into existence and has the misfortune of living past the age of accountability, they say something like "God loves you so much that he has given you a free will, so that you can choose where you want to spend eternity, if you decide you don't want to spend it with him, he is so loving he will honour your decision." which is being tortured in an eternal torture pit, just for having the misfortune of being born, something you had no say in


OH REALLY

I've got an even better one

If God really, really loved you, he would have never created you in the first place, he would have honoured your decision for non-existence if you could so choose, now THATS REAL LOVE  :HeartThrob:

I will never become a mother and have no regrets, as unlike many I grasped exactly what the preachers/teachers were getting at with their doctrines, I wasn't prepared to take a chance if there was the remotest chance a child of mine could end up in ET, I only wish my own parent had heeded the preachers message as well, as I've been a disappointment to them anyway

The total irony of this all is...even although I'm not dear to my parents...they wouldn't dream of torturing me forever even if it lay in their power to be able to do so....I know this as fact

Yet christendom claims an all loving God had the sole intention of creating people, just so his wrath could be shown to show his glory, then wonders why people cannot embrace and love such a God

I suppose it's because they think it doesn't apply to them, it's fine when it applies to someone else, yet they are selfish enough to procreate, not caring whether the child they are bringing into the world may be an object of their loving God's wrath, they will still go ahead anyway

[Raggedy Anne]

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

[Shadow]

Shadow,

My heart goes out to you.   :HeartThrob: I'm glad you exist.  Does that count?  I know exactly how you feel.  Fortunately, I don't feel that level of sadness all the time.    Have you ever listened to any of Ekhart Tolle's audio teachings called "The Power of Now"?  I ask because he goes deeply into how our minds, unable to rest, can cause so much needless suffering.  I think that is very true and even Jesus spoke of the need to bring our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.    I "get" that you don't want to be forced to fight the good fight of faith -- even the scriptures says that we were subjected UNWILLINGLY to futility/mortality, which I find comforting  -- that the scriptures at least admit that we are here suffering against our will. 

Well, I hope I have not said anything to make you feel worse.   I hope you are filled with joy a.s.a.p.

Anne

Thanks for your post, Anne, it has made me feel better

I will try those teachings of Eckart Tolle, I just get so disillusioned by the so called "good news" gospel of the fundamentalists and their mindset is so depressing  :dontknow: , their only hope is for themselves

I also hope I can be filled with joy, it's an emotion I'm not familiar with

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know :mshock:

[Molly]

My main problem is that I am unable to see the all loving God that many on here seem to know

I think you might be able to see Him.  Those little kittens that you have dressed up with bells and buttons and bows to celebrate them--He made them for you, because he knew the pleasure they would bring you, and because he loves you and created it all for you [his Christ].  It's just a matter of believing what you know to be true. 


19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

--Gen 2

[sven]

I think most believers in annihilation believe in conditional immortality and that an aborted child had no soul yet.

so if you abort a child, it will never life in any case, if it would be born, there is at least the chance to get saved and it would at least live it's normal life.

I don't think that "conditional immortalists" believe the souls of babies go to heaven, so it makes sense for me from an annihilationist point of view to reject abortion.

[WhiteWings]

so if you abort a child, it will never life in any case

Depends on when you call something "alive" and "child"
I've seen opinion ranging from several minutes to several weeks.