Sky receding like a scroll

[pauperest]

How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below?  It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)

Thank you

[Taffy]

How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below?  It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)

Thank you

I thought Revelation was a Book Of symbols revealing the LIFE of Christ? 


Briefly ,Could It be the passing of the Old Covenant , Heavens can be likened to Mind or that which rules over it...

Heaven and Earth shall NOT pass away Until all BE fufilled , a shaking in the Heavens,= The End of the Old , The Begininng of the New


Youll may find the moon stars were the patriarchs of the nation of ISRAEL. Gen 37:9

The Sun shall Rule BY DAY , ( NC)
The Moon By Night  (OC)

The moon blood COVERED is symbolic of Christ spilt Blood, Death No longer reigns , as the Ministry of Death is NO more

:icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

OK, I'll try, but there are many things at work in this scripture.
Symbolism is at play here so know that the heavens inhabit the sky over your head and the high realm of the spirit within you. They rule what they inhabit.
Also, think of Gods plan for creation as already finished.
God's plan is like one giant, 7,000-year long Web page on his computer, the page is already a finished document and He can scroll up and down the Web page to anywhere in time. He lives in the NOW.
We are living out that plan as characters on that page at a particular segment of our lifetime.
When God's plan is complete, the old heavens will roll up as a scroll leaving the New Heavens which is God all in all.

[Redlettervoice]

.


Hi Newcomer............boy do I remember all them questions?

First of all, dear, the word "sky" represents yours and mine's first
heavens........these are in our hearts and minds........and take us
on a journey into the last eternal heaven where only what is of God
is.  That is why it is written, "heaven "and" earth" shall pass away
BUT MY WORD shall endure.

Read Hebrews 1 and you'll see that God speaks to all of us thru
various ways and thru prophets, etc. but at the last days, He speaks
thru His SON, the Highest Ministry there is.  It comes directly from
heaven.

You can use a concordance and type in the word "scroll" and you'll
find this several times thruout the scriptures, I think. 

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


The first heavens too were the work of HIS Hands
but they are not eternal, next verse here says they'll perish.
They will, as His Work continues in His people....
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I actually had a night vision of the realm of the natural stars sort of being opened and curling back like the folds of a heavy drape. A brilliant light was coming thru the folds. I had this when I first turned to the Lord 23 years ago, BEFORE I had ever read that part of scripture. It was stunning. Blessings....

[Doug]

How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below?  It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)

Isaiah 34:4 says,
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14 contains a similar prophecy:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

When a scroll is rolled up, after it has been read, its spindles cease rotating, once they meet. That pictures what happened to man's concept of the heavens, at the time of the scientific revolution. The starry heavens were no longer seen to be rotating, as they had for thousands of years, once men began to believe and understand it is the earth that rotates, not the sky. Like a scroll rolled together, the imagined diurnal revolutions of the stars and the firmament suddenly stopped, in the scientific revolution, when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth instead of the heavens.

The reference to the host of heaven falling like figs from a fig tree suggests the principle expressed by Newton's law of universal gravitation. Voltaire, in a popular treatise about Newton's theory, said that the heavenly bodies fall like apples. Thousands of years before Newton, Isaiah had written that the stars fall like figs. 

Doug

[rosered]

  great questions pauperest  :thumbsup:

good answers   Taff , Card , Doug , Beloved , and Redletter 

  we/a few  done a scroll/roll study years ago , I cannot remember

  most of it  , but like Taff I believe it was  between the  two covenants

  also seeing Jesus  on the cross   between the two  liar and thief 

  here is one place  in Zech
   also in rev and  Hebrews  and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............



Zec 5:1 ¶ Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. 

Zec 5:2   And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. 


Zec 5:3   Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it. 


Zec 5:4   I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. 


Zec 5:5 ¶ Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth. 
Zec 5:6   And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth. 


Zec 5:7   And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 


Zec 5:8   And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 
Zec 5:9   Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 


Zec 5:10   Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 


Zec 5:11   And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base. 

  seeing this as BABYLON ..... :dontknow:

[Doug]

  here is one place  in Zech
   also in rev and  Hebrews  and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............



Zec 5:1  Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

Zec 5:2   And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.


Zec 5:3   Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

My Bible is about 5.25 in by 8.5 in. There are 944 pages in the OT and 289 in the NT. This works out to an area of about 55,000 square inches. Compare with the area of the scroll, using 1 cubit = 16 inches, roughly the distance from elbow to knuckle, the scroll Zechariah described is about 51,000 square inches. But Zechariah's scroll was written on both sides. My Bible has rather small type; a Bible with larger type could easily be about the same area as that given by Zechariah.

The scroll of Zechariah's prophecy could represent the scriptures, which have become known around the entire earth. The scriptures were distributed among the Gentiles since ancient times, probably as early as the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. They have been translated into every language. The scriptures include a curse, for breaking the law.

Notice that those affected are those who break the commandments against stealing and against swearing falsely in God's name. Evidently the scroll of Zechariah tells about sin. The NT tells about the remedy for this curse; it is the death of Christ on our behalf.

Doug

[Taffy]

Hi Rosey :HeartThrob:

Hi Doug
Just maybe It was vision, and those numbers 20 [ Redemption]Aand Ten[ Testimony\law] are figurative.

Like Rose I see the roll as the Law [ curse], within is the witness unto Life but Not the Law itself , the law remaining the Shadow.

:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I wonder how often the disciples got together to discuss parables and lessons that Jesus would teach.  There were several accounts where it was clear that Jesus would "say" one thing, but mean something totally different.  Like when he said "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ."  Now, we've read the story, we know how it ends.  But imagine only reading the first half of that for the first time yourself.  Would "you" have known that it had nothing to do with forgetting to bring bread to eat for the trip?

Or when Jesus told the religious croud "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up."  We read it after the fact and we have the help of John to explain to us what temple he was referring to.  But even so, sometimes it feels like much discussion here is on the same plain as the discussions over things Jesus said way back then.  They tried to reason the fact that it litterally took decades to build those buildings and they banged their heads against the wall trying to get a hold of what was being said.  And yet none of it helped. 

Why?  Because they lacked relationship.  Have you ever been around a person that you really understood, but yet no one else seemed to?  This person would always be backed into a corner because they offended someone again and as you hear the story unwind, you can quickly see what your friend really meant, but the person he said it to, didn't know him as well as you do, so instead of receiving it as constructive, they instead, became offended at him for saying it.

It's much the same here.  So many of us are on so many different levels of relationship with the Father that we come away with entirely different points of view on things.  There is a pattern though.  Nothing Jesus spoke of was meant to be taken literally.  He wasn't talking about eating literal bread, he wasn't talking about the Pharisees containing literal leven, he wasn't talking about literally rebuilding the physical temple, everything he said and did was dimensional.  We call it either metephorical or allegorical, but either way, taking it literally wasn't the intent or the purpose.

So, when seeing these things in Scripture, we have to lay down the literal, physical and natural renditions and "let" the Father reveal the spiritual to us.  Why?  Because it is the spiritual that has authority over the natural.  There are laws of God that are just that, they're laws.  Spirit over flesh is just one of those unchangable laws he's established as Truth.

Calling us to walk in the spirit was not a ploy so that we would be seen as flakey, or peculiar, but it's because "that's" where our authority is.  It's not in the literal, physical realm of things.  So what is this flying scroll?  It is what God reveals to you it is.  These prophesies and revelations are always about the finished work of Christ in redeeming man back to the Father.  And there are many dimensions to those revelations.  I love the idea that it is dealing with the old covenant and the new. 

I also love the idea that it's depicting all the accusations held against me and the "both sides" reflect things in my past, and things in my future that I've done.  And that document is an accumulation of charges held against me that God is judging with Righteousness and Mercy.  Because of the blood of the Lamb, those charges have been dropped.  My accusations held against me are erased. 

Have you ever been so in love with someone you just can't shut up about them?  In every conversation, at every opportunity, you just "look" for a seque that you can somehow change the conversation over to that person that you're just so stricken with.  For me, that's what the Bible is.  God is so in love with his son, that in every story, in every event, with every subject, he always finds a way to illuminate the redeeming power of His Son as Jesus restored our relationship back to the Father.

The flying scroll is just another way for God to brag about the fact that we are guilty, but found innocent through the power of the blood of the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

[Taffy]

God is so in love with his son, that in every story, in every event, with every subject, he always finds a way to illuminate the redeeming power of His Son as Jesus restored our relationship back to the Father.

.

enjoyed the wording Nat :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, Nathan....... :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Redlettervoice]

  here is one place  in Zech
   also in rev and  Hebrews  and one of the parables Jesus taught in the gospels ...............



Zec 5:1  Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

Zec 5:2   And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.


Zec 5:3   Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

My Bible is about 5.25 in by 8.5 in. There are 944 pages in the OT and 289 in the NT. This works out to an area of about 55,000 square inches. Compare with the area of the scroll, using 1 cubit = 16 inches, roughly the distance from elbow to knuckle, the scroll Zechariah described is about 51,000 square inches. But Zechariah's scroll was written on both sides. My Bible has rather small type; a Bible with larger type could easily be about the same area as that given by Zechariah.

The scroll of Zechariah's prophecy could represent the scriptures, which have become known around the entire earth. The scriptures were distributed among the Gentiles since ancient times, probably as early as the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. They have been translated into every language. The scriptures include a curse, for breaking the law.

Notice that those affected are those who break the commandments against stealing and against swearing falsely in God's name. Evidently the scroll of Zechariah tells about sin. The NT tells about the remedy for this curse; it is the death of Christ on our behalf.Doug

Doug, how interesting..........I do know that "if" the Bible is NOT
"word" AND Spirit revelation given by God, that it is certainly a mess.
ha  I dreamed about it one time long ago, and it confused me "then"
because I heard myself saying "I sense an enemy around here" AND
ALL I could see at that time was the Bible."  There is a thread right now
on one of the other forums calling "Christianity" convoluted....and I
had to laugh at all the "convoluted" replies.  It's a wonder the Spirit
gets thru to any of us, but HE does!  Nothing but what the Spirit does
last.........except the Lord build the house, they that labour do so in
vain. And man at his best state is altogether vain.  For man to do any
building, He must first of all "get the LORD in him" .......then he will
hear the Lord saying "Go on up and build."  Now one must be "sure"
about this, for God tears down all except what He Himself builds.
Remember Esau saying "We will just build again."  Well, work yourself
to death then. ha  There is a way that "seemeth" right, but the end
thereof is what?  Do not wake my love til HE please.

I hope we are not confusing our new co hort here.

It is all this confusing stuff that will pass away.  Thank 'God" it's a promise.

[rosered]

good thoughts guys!  :thumbsup:
I sure enjoy reading more these days  than writing lol...

  I sure dont remember  alot of things these days , but I do remember being so very blessed   when in that  scroll/roll study with friends
oh it was like being seated  with Christ  in the heavenlies  for sure  :cloud9:
love to you all  :HeartThrob:  rose

[Doug]

Zec 5:5  Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6   And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.


Zec 5:7   And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.


Zec 5:8   And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9   Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.


Zec 5:10   Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?


Zec 5:11   And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

  seeing this as BABYLON .....

What is an ephah? It is a container having a known volume, probably one used for grain.

Ruth 2:17
So she gleaned in the field until even, and beat out that she had gleaned: and it was about an ephah of barley.

Ezekiel 45:10
Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.

A talent is a unit of weight.

2 Chronicles 9:13
Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;

Ephah = Volume measurement
Talent = Weight measurement

Together, these seem to indicate commerce. Is it not wickedness that people have made merchandise of the gospel? Perhaps Zechariah's prophecy about the woman in an ephah means that the church is involved in buying and selling, trading the gospel, seeking a profit. That is the wickedness, surely.

The two women who come out carry the ephah to Shinar, the land of Babylon, where things of this world, such as buying and selling, trade, merchandise, etc., belong.

The ephah, and the talent of lead, may be symbolic of commerce, and trade. The woman inside probably represents the church. But the church should not be involved with worldly commerce and business.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

The apostles provided the gospel to people of their generation free of charge. Money making schemes belong in Shinar, not the temple of God. The two women who emerge from the ephah have wings like a stalk, big and powerful. Powerful wings of eagles picture the gift of prophecy, in other scriptures. The wings of a stalk are similar. The wind in their wings probably represents the spirit of God.

Doug

[willieH]

OK, I'll try, but there are many things at work in this scripture.
Symbolism is at play here so know that the heavens inhabit the sky over your head and the high realm of the spirit within you. They rule what they inhabit.
Also, think of Gods plan for creation as already finished.
God's plan is like one giant, 7,000-year long Web page on his computer, the page is already a finished document and He can scroll up and down the Web page to anywhere in time. He lives in the NOW.
We are living out that plan as characters on that page at a particular segment of our lifetime.
When God's plan is complete, the old heavens will roll up as a scroll leaving the New Heavens which is God all in all.

SWEET!  :goodpost:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[Doug]

My favorite commentator on Isaiah, J. A. Alexander, wrote the following paragraph in his introduction to Isa. 34.

Rabbi Moses Haccohen applies all this to the desolation of Edom in the days of Isaiah. Grotius, who adopts the same hypothesis, supposes these judgments to have been provoked by the aid with which the Edomites afforded to the Assyrians in their invasion of Judea, and to have been executed by the Etheopians. Schmidius also applies the chapter to the literal desolation of Edom in the days of Isaiah. Eusebius applies it to the day of judgment and the end of the world. Cyril makes the same application of vs. 1-4, but applies the rest to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish commonwealth, mystically represented here by Edom. Theodoret extends this explanation to the whole, in which he is followed by Cocceius. The rabbinical interpreters, with one exception which has been already mentioned, explain Edom as a mystical or figurative name for Rome, a rather Christendom, of which Rome was once the representative, and understand the chapter as predicting the future downfall of the Christian powers in the days of the Messiah. On this same rabbinical bypothess Vitringa rears a Christian exposition, by making Edom the emblem not of Christian but of Antichristian (i. e. Papal) Rome. So J. H. Michaelis, Gill, and others, most of whom however give the prophecy a greater latitude of meaning, as a general threatening of destruction to the enemies of Zion, but especially to Antichrist here typified as Edom. J. D. Michaelis regards the prophecy as yet to be fulfilled, and thinks it possible that the ancient Idumea may hereafter be possessed by an antichristian power whose destruction is here foretold. Rosenmuller and the other recent German writers regard the whole as an extravagant expression of revengeful malice by a writer long posterior to Isaiah. This gratuitous assumption is sustained by the usual empirical criticism, which, as we have seen before, may be employed on either side of any question. Hitzig, while complaining of the writer's diffuseness and verbosity, heaps up tautological expressions of contempt in his own peculiar style. It is worthy of remark, too, that the spirit of this chapter is extremely shocking to these pious unbelievers. Leaving these prejudiced interpretations out of view, the reference of the prophecy to Antichrist may be objected to, upon the ground that the sense which it gives to Edom is a forced one, not sustained by any usage or authority, except certain parts of the book of Revelation, which the older writers used as a key to the ancient prophecies, whereas these alone afforded the key to it. The simplest and most satisfactory view of the whole passage is the one proposed by Calvin, who regards it as a general threatening of destruction to the enemies of Zion, Edom being particularly mentioned, as an enemy of ancient Israel peculiarly inveterate and malignant, and thence used to represent the whole class of such enemies. Thus understood, the prophecy extends both to the past and future, and includes many particular events to which interpreters have erroneously endeavoured to restrict it, not excepting the destruction of Antichrist, as the greatest event of this kind which is foretold in prophecy. Compare the note on ch. 11:4.

[The earlier prophecies of Isaiah, Volume 1. By Joseph Addison Alexander. p. 555-556.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=v2NuAAAAIAAJ

I think that Edom in the prophecy likely represents the enemies of Zion; however Zion is symbolic of the church, Heb. 12:22. A "sword" came down on the religious leaders in the Reformation, and another one fell during the eighteenth century. This was the scientific revolution, when the heavens were "rolled up like a scroll." They ceased their revolutions. It was the earth that rotated, not the heavens. All the planetary spheres, and the rigid firmament, the old geocentric cosmology which they embraced has been abandoned. 

Doug

[rosered]

Zec 5:5  Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what [is] this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6   And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.


Zec 5:7   And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.


Zec 5:8   And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9   Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.


Zec 5:10   Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?


Zec 5:11   And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

  seeing this as BABYLON .....

What is an ephah? It is a container having a known volume, probably one used for grain.

Ruth 2:17
So she gleaned in the field until even, and beat out that she had gleaned: and it was about an ephah of barley.

Ezekiel 45:10
Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.

A talent is a unit of weight.

2 Chronicles 9:13
Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;

Ephah = Volume measurement
Talent = Weight measurement

Together, these seem to indicate commerce. Is it not wickedness that people have made merchandise of the gospel? Perhaps Zechariah's prophecy about the woman in an ephah means that the church is involved in buying and selling, trading the gospel, seeking a profit. That is the wickedness, surely.

The two women who come out carry the ephah to Shinar, the land of Babylon, where things of this world, such as buying and selling, trade, merchandise, etc., belong.

The ephah, and the talent of lead, may be symbolic of commerce, and trade. The woman inside probably represents the church. But the church should not be involved with worldly commerce and business.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

The apostles provided the gospel to people of their generation free of charge. Money making schemes belong in Shinar, not the temple of God. The two women who emerge from the ephah have wings like a stalk, big and powerful. Powerful wings of eagles picture the gift of prophecy, in other scriptures. The wings of a stalk are similar. The wind in their wings probably represents the spirit of God.

Doug

good  evaluation Doug !! :thumbsup:  see that too .
the Lords warns many times of  the gospel for profit schemes  :sigh:

  God bless ya bro ..... rose  :icon_flower:

[eaglesway]

   The way I see it is. The heavens are the transition between time, the realm we walk in, and eternity, the realm our spirits are tied into, which is outside of time, transcends time. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and had a vision. The higher the heaven, the further out of time and the further into eternity, transcending time and outside of time- like say Enoch, who was not, anymore, in time, after being caught up. Our father who art in heaven. The bride, coming down out of heaven, is the reality of the bride which is firm and substantial outside of time(Heb 12), thru the veil, becoming manifest due to the the overflowing revelation of God and restoration of heavenly Zion(Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven), filling the tabernacle of the Spirit with glory, which is His people, fitly joined together as living stones.

    When the heavens roll back like a scroll, the veils will be rent for the whole kosmos (every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him) from the depths of the grave to the highest heaven..... all consciousness in every being will be awakened to His "appearing". Some will rejoice at the sight some will cry out for the proverbial rocks and caves to fall on them....as Adam and Eve did when God came around after they ate the fruit. Like so many disputes, the coin has two sides, the literal and the figurative fulfilled at one time, both true in eternity always in the I AM, TODAY, DAY, NOW of God but also having "times of fulfillment or fulness of times" administration according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
       In the same way, the ages are the transition between time and eternity, those things which are "forever settled in heaven" and "foreknown from the foundation" manifesting according to the administration of the times, until all the times are fulfilled and thrown away like a garment.
         "He that believes in me has passed from death unto life" "The time is coming AND NOW IS when the dead(all those who are not alive through believing) will hear the voice of the son of God and live"[in the now, present I AM(dawn)- and its manifestation at the end of this age, first resurrection(full noon)]. The time is coming when ALL THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND COME FORTH FROM THEIR GRAVES; those who did good to a ressurection of life, those who did evil to a ressurection of judgment(second resurrection GWT tribunal)(John 5:24-29).
          The first resurrection is not automatic, it must be attained to (Phil 3:10-11, the exanastasis out-resurrection from amongst the dead) it is for the overcomers, who hear, wake up and stay awake until the end(of their time). We are to walk in the day and not let the thief(death)catch us sleeping or surfeiting.
     If we walk(abide) in it(John 15)..... we already have this open heaven, as the veil is taken away "in Christ"(2 cor 3 15-18) and our "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:20-39 Our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water) through the veil, which is the veil of His flesh, torn for us at Calvary, having always been torn in eternity, but manifesting in time at the appointed time(in the fulness of time God sent forth His son(gal 4:4); foreknown from the foundation but manifest in these last time for you 1Pe1:20 Now, Once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself He 9:26)
       But is is received as a seed and grows through sanctification of the Spirit when we,"Fix our eyes on Jesus", "Set not our affections on things below, but rather on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God" so that we can "experience" being "seated in Christ in the heavenly realms far above all principality and power" and "know the hope of our calling and the riches of His inheritance in the saints and the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe" and "taste the powers of the age to come" and "move onto maturity". Most of us are too busy splitting coins and arguing about things to do any of that tho.
     So when He appears, in the fulness of time, which he will, most of us who are alive and remain will be foolish virgins without enough oil, because if you are not awake and loaded with oil "Today", in the "Now", having "entered into His rest" and the "finished work", you are not seeing, in the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the true knowledge of God, His "appearing" which is always upon us.
     You wont rejoice to see it most likely, because you are calling on the rocks and caves to hide you already. Hiding from one another and hiding from koinonea(oneness, brotherly love, fellowship). Koinonea is the new garden. "If we walk in the light(wake up O sleepers) AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT (Arise from amongst the dead) then we have KOINONEA and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin(and the light of Christ will shine on you).
       Those who sleep, sleep in the night, they will not hear the thief when he comes. The thief is death, and you have no idea when he will come, so you have to endure to the end, in walking in the light. The, as a child of light the day cannot take you as a thief.

[martincisneros]

How will sky recede like a scroll when there is not material sky above or below?  It is just void all the way. can some one enlighten me? (Revelation 6:14)

Thank you

Obviously if our war is in the heavenlies per Ephesians 6 with the demonic strongholds that are holding men's minds in bondage and we're to be casting those down per 2Corinthians 10, then obviously this sky rolling back is the gates of Hell not prevailing and the Church advancing towards Revelation chpts 1, 11, 22, Romans 5, Ephesians 2, et. al., when the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, of His Christ, of His saints, and we reign between, to, within, from, encompassing, throughout, and above the ages of ages that we're creating with the Words of our mouths as the Word of Christ dwells in us richly in all wisdom and everything we're saying and everything we're doing is in the Name of Jesus, giving thanks to God the father thru Him per Colossians 3:12-17 so that we're the fullness of Him that filleth all in all per Ephesians 1:23, if we're obeying the Biblical principles that force the conformity with His image scenario of Romans 8 and Philippians 3 by practicing Luke 6:40, 1Corinthians 4:16, 1Corinthians 11:1, Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 5:1, Philippians 3:17, the book of Philemon, 1John 2:5-6, and I'll shut up. :HeartThrob:

Jeremiah 33:9 :bgdance:

[Doug]

Its quite simple: when a scroll is rolled together, the spindles stop rotating. And the heavens, in the old geocentric cosmology, revolved around the earth, but after the scientific revolution, those revolutions stopped; it was the earth that rotated instead.

This seems such an easy explanation, it is a wonder people have so much trouble understanding Isa. 34:4 and Rev. 6:14. Here are a few examples of the speculations.

Henry Madison Morris commented on Rev. 6:14,

The departing of the heavens like a scroll is more difficult to understand. There seem to be two possibilities. One is that the clouds of dust will gradually spread across the sky, making it appear that the sky is being "rolled up." However, the use of the graphic term "departed," seems to indicate something more spectacular even than this. The other possibility is that the earth's crust, highly unstable ever since the great Flood, will be so disturbed by the impacting asteroids, the volcanic explosions, and the worldwide earthquakes, that great segments of it will actually begin to slip and slide over the earth's deep plastic mantle.

Henry Madison Morris, The Revelation record p. 122-123.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=inbeiIub460C

John F. Walvoord wrote:

Revelation 6:12-17. After observing these stirring scenes, John next recorded observing the opening of the sixth seal, "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to the earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who can stand?'" (vv. 12-17)

It would be difficult to paint a scene more dramatic, more awful than that which is described in these verses. All the elements of catastrophic judgment are present: a great earthquake, the sun turning black, the moon becoming as blood, the stars of heaven falling like ripe figs, the heavens demonstrating major movements departing as a scroll, and on the earth every mountain and island moving. The picture of God's judgment on the world at this time is so dramatic that some recoil from it and attempt to interpret it in a less than literal sense. They would hold that this simply refers to political and social instability that will characterize the end time. However, the objections to a symbolic interpretation for which there is no norm or guiding principle are such that it is far better to interpret it in its literal sense.

John F. Walvoord, Every Prophecy of the Bible p. 557.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=BNxHnhfQIosC

The editors of The Quarterly Christian spectator in 1837 wrote on Isa. 34:4,

4. And all the host of heaven. The word host, Heb. tsau-bau, army, is often applied to the constellations of heaven--the stars as marshalled or arrayed in military array. (Comp. Job xxxviii. 32.) The heavenly bodies are often used to represent kings and princes. (Comp. ch. xxiv. 21.)--Shall melt away, venaumakoo. This figure, Vitringa supposes, is taken from the vulgar prejudice by which the stars of heaven appear to be crystals, or gems set in the azure vault of heaven, which may dissolve, or melt, and flow down by the application of heat. The word maukak, means to melt, to pine away; and means here, as Vitringa has supposed, to become liquid, and flow down. The sense is, that there should be great changes and destruction, that the princes and nobles, who had opposed God and his people, should be destroyed, as if the sparkling stars, like gems, should melt in the heavens, and flow down to the earth, and all should be extinguished.--And the heavens shall be rolled up as a scroll. The word scroll, here Sepher, means a roll, or a book. Books were made of parchment, leaves, &.c., and were rolled together, instead of being bound, as they are with us. The idea here is evidently figurative. The figure is taken from the vulgar notion, from what strikes the eye, that the heaven above us is an expanse, raukeea, (Gen. i. 8; Psa. civ. 2,) which is spread out, and which might be rolled together, and thus pass away, or the expanse cease to exist. It is possible, that there may be a reference here also to the fact, that in a storm, when the sky is filled with dark rolling clouds, the heavens seem to be rolled together, and to be passing away. The sense is, that there would be great destruction and ruin among those high in office and in power,-- a destruction, that would be represented only by the rolling up of the expanse over the head, and the destruction of the visible heavens, and their host, and by leaving the world to ruin, and to night.--And all their host shall fall down. That is, their stars; either by being as it were melted, or by the fact, that the expanse in which they are apparently located, should be rolled up and removed, and there being no fixtures for them, they should fall. In the violent concussion and agitations of rolling up the expanse, they would be shaken out of their places and fall to the earth. This is a most striking and beautiful figure. The same image here employed, occurs in Rev. vi. 13. One somewhat similar occurs in Virgil. Georg. I. 365, seq. The sense is, that there should be vast commotion among the nations which were the objects of the divine displeasure; that they should be consigned to ruin--ruin as certain, conspicuous, and as awful as if the stars of heaven were to fall, and vast commotion were seen in the sky, and all the vast expanse in which the stars are set, should be wrapped together and pass away.--As the falling of leaves off from the vine, &c. That is, in a storm, or when violently shaken. This too, indicates great commotion and agitation.
   
5. For my sword rushes intoxicated from heaven. A sword is an instrument of punishment, or vengeance, and is often so used in the scriptures, because it was often employed in capital punishments. This passage has given much perplexity to commentators, on account of the apparent want of meaning of the expression, that the sword should be bathed in heaven. Lowth reads it,

For my sword is made bare in the heavens;

following in this the Chaldee, which reads tithnallee, shall be revealed, or shall be made manifest, or bare. But there is no authority from MSS. for this change in the Hebrew text.

The Quarterly Christian spectator, June 1837. p. 224-226
http://books.google.ca/books?pg=PA230

J. Dwight Pentecost takes a similar approach. He wrote:

The 6th [seal] speaks of the great convulsions that will shake the whole earth. This may signify the condition in which every authority and power loses its control over men and anarchy reigns. Kelly says: "The persecuting powers and those subject to them will be visited judicially, and there will ensue a complete disruption of authority on the earth."

Things to come: a study in Biblical eschatology
By J. Dwight Pentecost
http://books.google.ca/books?id=2k6jJ12en1cC&pg=PA359

Charles Taze Russell said:

It will be of little consequence then that the ecclesiastical heavens (the religious powers, Papal and Protestant) will have rolled together as a scroll. (Isa. 34:4; Rev. 6:14) The combined religious power of Christendom will be utterly futile against the rising tide of anarchy when the dread crisis is reached. Before that great army "all the host of heaven [the church nominal] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll [the two great bodies which constitute the ecclesiastical heavens; viz., Papacy and Protestantism, as the two distinct ends of the scroll are even now rapidly approaching one another, rolling together, s we have shown]; and all their host shall fall down [fall off, drop out; not all at once, but gradually, yer rapidly] as the leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from a fig tree" (Isa. 34:4)...

The Battle of Armageddon
By Charles Taze Russell
http://books.google.ca/books?id=87JeIY4Cdu8C

Charles D. Alexander:

THE SIXTH SEAL
The description is not of the end of the world (though all judgments point to that final Assize) but the successive visitation of the divine vengeance on earth as God cleaves a path through history for His redeemed.
...

As usual John borrows his figures from the Old Testament. The dimming of sun and moon, the falling of stars, the removal of mountains and islands, the cry of the wicked for the hills to cover them - these are familiar Old Testament figures of the dissolution of empires, and the passing away of systems, powers, tyrannies.

Hengstenberg writes, "The shining of the heavenly lights is the symbol and the visible reflection of the grace of God. Hence its extinguishment by the sun and moon becoming dark, in storms and earthquakes, etc., is regarded as a prelude of severe judgments".

For the darkening of sun and moon as a figure of the eclipse or passing away of kingdoms, nations, or even churches, see Isaiah 24:23; "The moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed when the Lord shall reign in mount Zion ...." - a prophecy of the superior light of the gospel dimming into obscurity the lesser light of the Law.
...

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind" - v.13.

The fundamental passage from which these words are taken is Isaiah 34:4-5:
...

In chapter 34, the dissolution of the heavens and the falling of the stars is associated with the judgment of God on Jacob's traditional enemy, Esau, here presented under his prophetic name of Idumea (Edom- 'red' - symbolic of his career of murder and blasphemy against the people of God). (See verses 5-8). As usual however, Edom does not stand exclusively for itself, but as the representative of all that worldly power which hates the people of the Lord wherever it finds them.
...

The Book of Revelation is full of the symbolism of 'stars' - falling or otherwise. Christ is the bright and morning star (Rev. 22:16); He is the star which Balaam prophesied should arise out of Jacob (Num. 24:17); He holds in His right hand the seven stars which are the angels of the Seven Churches (Rev. 1:20); a star falls from heaven to the earth (Rev. 9:1) and is discovered to be none other than Satan (v.11). The Church is represented in chapter 12 as a woman with a crown of twelve stars. A great star falls in chapter 8 verses 10-11. Its name is Wormwood, and its function is to make bitter all rivers and fountains of water - no doubt meaning that false doctrine which poisons the sources of light, life and truth upon which the soul of man depends, even the preaching of the Word of God. We are seeing not a little of that today.
...

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." - v.14

The rolling up of the heaven is a continuation of the symbolism of the preceding verse. The stars of heaven having fallen to the earth, that is, the rulers and tyrants of this world's system, the heaven itself, their region of power and dominance over the world comes to an end. The mountains and islands being moved out of their places represent the consequent disorder among the nation as the central, controlling power for the time being is destroyed.

How often in history could those words be spoken (as spoken they were by a great British statesman at the time of the Napoleonic wars)- "Roll up that map of Europe: It will not be needed again in our time"? How much of the world has been fundamentally changed since the 20th century came in, by two world wars, and the fall of great powers which only a short time ago controlled the whole world the rise of other nations and powers - as in Africa and Asia - never before known as significant territories on the face of the earth. As oft as this upheaval takes place on the face of the globe, so the principle of this Seal comes into action.

Charles D. Alexander
Revelation Spiritually Understood
http://www.allbygrace.com/alexrev047-06.html

Clarence Larkin wrote:

In Isa. 34:4 we read--"All the host of heaven (the stars) shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth from the vibe, and as falling fig from the fig tree," This corresponds to the "stars of heaven" of this "SEAL," and probably refers not to the constellations and heavenly bodies (stars), they are too far away to be affected by judgments on the earth, but to our own atmosphere, and to "meteors" and "shooting stars," similar to the "shooting stars" of November 13th, 1833, when they fell for 3 hours during the evening, and so terrified the people that they thought the end of the world had come.

The Book of Revelation: A Study of the Last Prophetic Book of Holy Scripture
By Clarence Larkin
http://books.google.ca/books?id=wdznQLc7EWAC

What a variety of opinions!  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

[sheila]

 Hi, I was given an 'understanding' just yesterday about the identity of the two women who carried off 'wickedness' to the Land of Shinar. Imgine my surprise to read these posts,today.

  these two women were Elizabeth and Mary..Mothers of John the Baptist and Jesus...through the Holy spirit they were likened like Sarah,who birthed through the PROMISE and said,

send that woman away..her son shall not inherit. Typing those born from Jerusalem above and Hagar/bondage. Of men born of women..there was none more righteous than John who testified to the Lamb that takes away the sin [dross/evil]..And the call

come out of her my people..bespeaks the purifying and removal of dross by Jesus Christ[or the aving from sin/wickednes.

:2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I like it! Blessings..... :thumbsup:

[Doug]

The NASA picture of the day (for Sun 13 Sep) shows a colorful pattern that seems meaningless at first, but reveals a 3D teapot suspended in air, a few inches above a table top, when viewed in a certain way.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0909/teapotsirds_winfree.gif

The picture illustrates, I think, how prophecies of the Bible may at first seem meaningless, but their meaning may become clear when viewed with the right perspective. In this case, the eyes need to focus on a point behind the image. There is a similar image, revealing a shark, at this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stereogram_Tut_Random_Dot_Shark.png

Some explanation is provided here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram

In Rev. 6:14, John says "every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Most interpreters try to explain this as some sort of cataclysmic event, such as a world-wide earthquake.

Jesus connected mountains with faith. He spoke of faith that could move mountains. [Mat. 17:20; 21:21]

I suggest that the mountains and islands referred to in John's prophecy are symbolic; they represent things that we can have faith in: God's promises. David compared God's righteousness to great mountains.

Psalm 36:6
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.

The prophecy of Rev. 6:14 says every mountain was moved out of its place; this suggests the promises of God are misinterpreted; many of the promises made to the church have been wrongly applied to unbelieving Jews! That is an example of the "mountains" being displaced from their proper positions.

Prophecies are also represented by mountains. The promises of God are prophecies! The gospel itself is a prophecy! And sure enough, most prophecies have been misinterpreted. This prophecy in Rev. 6:14 is an example; several failed interpretations were already noted.

Here is an interpretation of the prophecy by Peter Clarkin in 1849, that speaks of men moving "every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places," and so comes close to what I have suggested above.

Verse 14: "And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Such are the fatal effects when mankind fall into error, they have no pleasure in contemplating heavenly objects -- their ideas concerning the great work of creation are gross and absurd, and so are their notions of redeeming love. Converse with such on the providential care and goodness of God, they will admit it, but it affords them no comfort. Speak to them on the subject of justifying faith in Jesus Christ, the influence of the Holy Spirit, the new birth, and they have no conception of such things. Such conversation is insipid to them. Such knowledge is to them like a scroll, or sheet of paper, when it is rolled together.

The application of the latter clause of the verse, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places, may be understood when it is considered that the principles of popery removed by degrees every obstacle in its way, and as it grew in power, it set up kings and dethroned them; it absolved subjects from their allegiance, and granted pardon to the rebellious; it changed even the commandments of God, by leaving out the second, to make way for image worship, and divided the tenth into two, to preserve the number; it made the scriptures of truth of no effect by its traditions; it made the canon or decree of a general council of more validity than any gospel authority; it set up the pope's infalibility in opposition to Him who is Supreme Judge; it condemned the righteous and justified the ungodly; it put the Redeemer into lymbus patrum, when the avaricious road to purgatory was discovered; it substituted the sacrifice of the mass in the room of that atoning sacrifice which was to take away the sins of the world; and thus it gradually removed every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places, and placed man's salvation in the merits of the church.

Reflections on Revelations
By Peter Clarkin. Geo. C. Rand, Boston. 1849. p. 50.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ggYOAAAAYAAJ

Saying of the ritualistic Catholic worship, "it gradually removed every mountain and island of hope and security offered to us in the gospel out of their places" is quite perceptive, and captures the true meaning of John's prophecy, IMO. During the flood, the tops of the mountains appeared as islands; they must have inspired hope to those on the ark. Every island is a submerged mountain.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

[sheila]

wow!

   Good posts Doug, Thanks for sharing! Blessed me.

                           Sheila