Where does it say you can be saved even though you have not gained aionios life?

[Gilbert]

He created us so that WE could live ,gain and be happy ,not because we should lick His a**S
It was about creation from the beginning .
How can you say that it was about Him when He has all He needs. What do we bring in forth to Him that He should even need to create us for Himself ?
He created us ,because He is good and ,because WE should be alive and be gods ,and beautifull beings.

Hi! VID

That's a very intriguing comment you have made here.
There are four basic questions which every man should strive to answer for himself:
1. Does God exist?
2. Who is God and what is He like?
3. What is man?
4. What is the ultimate intention/purpose of God for man?

Your comments evidently deal with #4. David posed a similar question: "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or a son of man that thou carest for him?", (Hebrews 2:6-8).

So, let's try an' give it something of an answer, shall we?

The whole of creation expresses this single thought: God wanted to give from Himself.

Scripture does not say in vain, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which He has made to dwell in us', (James 4:5). In His thoughts He prepared the greatest work possible. It is a perfect work and a grand godly creation. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny.

God wasn't thinking of a second God; rather, He thought of a worthy partner that would fit Him perfectly and harmoniously.

Since the beginning, God had us envisioned. God desired a partner to whom He could give Himself completely in love and in whom He could rejoice until eternity. This partner would be able to return His love and have an enormous amount of possibilities. This partner would be able to be an active participant with all of God's plans.

God pictured Himself a being that would fulfill all His desires; a being created after His image and likeness. We could describe it as "complementary" to God; completely belonging to one another in being and works. God wanted to acquire His partner. If He would have created it ready-made, there wouldn't have been anything to "acquire". Through the growth and development of talents that were created by God, man could enter into a close relationship with God and evolve into a mature independent being. This independent being could volunteer to follow after God's intentions and needs with all that is in him through free will and love. God worked this out in His infinite wisdom.

God conceived in His heart and mind a being with unimaginable, never ending possibilities; a being with a heart that could love Him, that could develop in many respects and both in quality and quantity. He desired a being that would manifest itself in infinite variations and in many personalities so God would be able to manifest Himself completely in him; a being in whom God could be "all in all", (1Cor 15:28).

This sum total of personalities would live together as one; each individually and collectively forming a unity in a love relationship with God. Such was the splendid motivation and substance of God and to which everything visible and invisible evolved. It would all come forth from Him to be created by Him and exist for the glory of His blessedness.

God knew what exactly He started when He began creating the heaven and the earth. This would be the setting, in which God would fulfill His plan with man, mankind. It is for this very purpose that God created the heaven and the earth: to acquire a partner and co-worker. From that very moment until now, God still hasn't changed and neither will He ever change.

All of God's plans and purposes are based on God's longing for man. God was thinking of you and me!

The partner, of whom God was thinking, would be on His level. A partner able to live in an atmosphere of pure love and who would, from out of their free will, dedicate all their created abilities and talents to a relationship in complete dependence on God.

It was man who would be created as 'God's son'; born from God, and to God, and would grow and develop into a mature adult son. Man, with his (by God) created potential would mature into a mankind who, as God's wife, would live with Him until eternity. Our God continues to work firmly on a complete realization of all that was with Him in the beginning. In you and me at this very moment, God sees that potential candidate, -that unique being-, which is destined to mature and develop and to be revealed as the bride of God and in whom God is all things in all.

God desires of us a relationship that is based on love and not on service. He will never force us into a relationship with himself; rather, He waits patiently for us to come to Him. In the meantime he presents himself desirably to us. He shows us His love, His goodness, His compassion and all His other attributes in their fullness. If we were created to be will-less slaves there would be no hope for us nor any incentive to live. We would always be under a pressure to perform our 'duties' for God and unable to enjoy life as it can and should be enjoyed.

For this reason God waits for us to make a free will decision to come into a true and lasting love relationship with him; a relationship from the heart. When we build our relationship with him and share our innermost feelings and desires with him, He is able share His life in us. Therefore it says, "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart" (Psalms 37:4). "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you", (James 4:8).

[V.I.D.]

There is no freedom in what you say .


If i dont wanna be with someone ,but he makes everything in such a way that in the end i would still CHOSE him ,then this someone has controled me and i was not free . If i say to God ..Leave  me and He doesnt leave me ALONE and doesnt stop making me suffer ,then He doesnt want to leave me and is not letting me have my choice .

Your point is a mix between UR's no freedome doctrine and O.Christianity's freedome doctrine .

In the desire to be free ,you want freedome ,but in the desire to see mankind saved you say that all will choose God in the end and mix things together .

BTW : I never said that i thought that people should be like God . I said that i thought that they should be gods and that i had the idea that God didnt desire us to be bound by Him ,but to be free happy and flourishing creatures ,and that i believe ,that our spirits are such creatures !

There is just something so wrong with UR and Orthodox Christianity .

In UR you are nothing more than a clay pot that some god is molding the way He likes.This is not good ,because not only you are not free ,but it also makes you think of your self as something low and uncabable . It ruins the belief in your own capabilities as a person in life and makes you unhapy deeply .
In OC the views about freedome differ from person to person ,but many people are sent to a life of misery and pain in a place called hell .

I hate ALL religions ,because they make me feel either a slave either unhapy for many reasons .
I wish i could think of something better than them .

Nothing here is too close to truth . I feel it in my soul ,but i dont know why cant i make a better thought than all of those people . Its just that misery making me think stupid stuff many times and its hard to make something new and better than the old .Boy you have no idea how i hate those things .

[Doc]

Hi Doc,  good to chat to you again.  I don't know if I follow your thoughts clearly on this.  I'm wondering if this 'quality' definition of 'aionios' is misleading and proveable?  If we take 'olam', I don't recall it being used to denote 'quality' of a situation.  The examples I've looked at, all seem to relate to 'duration' ie a length of time that is unmeasurable to a human perspective.  Now if the life that Jesus talks of is 'aionios', we straightaway think of everlasting life, or life that stretches on and on out of sight because we know that 'olam' means this.  The same applies to the punishment (I'm not for a minute saying this is conscious punishment).  Are there scriputures in the OT where 'olam' is being used, that suggest 'quality' rather than 'duration'?  If so, then this would lend support to 'aionios' being able to have 'both' meanings.  If not, then maybe 'aionios' is just a 'duration of unkown time' word.   As we assume the 'life' we receive goes on and on, it follows we assume the punishment (cutting off from life) goes on and on.

Hi Cat. I think you're right, that Olam has the sense of time (even if it is unknowable), as does its Greek equivalent, aion. Aionios is contextually (in scripture)  in places applied to things that have a quality to them "independently" of any quantity (time) to them, unless we force it into the text. My point was that aionios can be used of indefinite, but ending time OR can be used to describe a quality of life, or both. Saying something is aionios doesn't necessarily imply a time statement, though. That was my point there.

[Cat]

Hi Doc, thanks for clarifying.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the equivalent of 'olam': 'aionios', rather than 'aion'.  We know that 'aion' can mean a period of time, ie a finite period of time, so that word isn't the problem.  I'm having major problems with 'aionios'.   If we put aside for a minute, it's relationship to 'aion' and look at how it's used in the Greek Septuagint to replace the time word 'olam', then, doesn't this usuage 'prove', what 'aionios' means?  I think we've established that 'olam' is a mystery time word, but it seems to always denote an unknowable length of time.  I can't recall seeing 'olam' used to denote a quality of something.  I may be wrong and please correct me if I am.  So, when you (and others) say that 'aionios' is used to denote 'quality' of something as well as 'time', then what proof do you have for that?  If I read the famous scriputure: Matt 25:46, how can I be sure Jesus isn't just speaking of 'mystery time'?  Jerome used a 'time' word in the Latin translation.  I see no reason why we should read more meaning into this word than we have for 'olam'.  Now, if this is the case, then the comparison of the 'aionios life' and the 'aionios punishment' do seem to point towards a 'time' understanding, and just as we know the 'life' is going to be without end (other scriptures else where tell us this of course), it follows the punishment will be of similar duration.  I hope you can see where I'm coming from. :dontknow:

[Nathan]

There is no freedom in what you say .


If i dont wanna be with someone ,but he makes everything in such a way that in the end i would still CHOSE him ,then this someone has controled me and i was not free . If i say to God ..Leave  me and He doesnt leave me ALONE and doesnt stop making me suffer ,then He doesnt want to leave me and is not letting me have my choice .

Your point is a mix between UR's no freedome doctrine and O.Christianity's freedome doctrine .

In the desire to be free ,you want freedome ,but in the desire to see mankind saved you say that all will choose God in the end and mix things together .

BTW : I never said that i thought that people should be like God . I said that i thought that they should be gods and that i had the idea that God didnt desire us to be bound by Him ,but to be free happy and flourishing creatures ,and that i believe ,that our spirits are such creatures !

There is just something so wrong with UR and Orthodox Christianity .

In UR you are nothing more than a clay pot that some god is molding the way He likes.This is not good ,because not only you are not free ,but it also makes you think of your self as something low and uncabable . It ruins the belief in your own capabilities as a person in life and makes you unhapy deeply .
In OC the views about freedome differ from person to person ,but many people are sent to a life of misery and pain in a place called hell .

I hate ALL religions ,because they make me feel either a slave either unhapy for many reasons .
I wish i could think of something better than them .

Nothing here is too close to truth . I feel it in my soul ,but i dont know why cant i make a better thought than all of those people . Its just that misery making me think stupid stuff many times and its hard to make something new and better than the old .Boy you have no idea how i hate those things .

There are only two options here V.I.D.  Either you're "for" Christ, or you're "against" him.  To have the nature of Christ manifesting in you, is to have his humility and servanthood.  He didn't come to be served, he came to serve.  Yet much of your comments are about you "being" served.

UR, for me, isn't about me conforming to yet another set of regulations and rules.  It's realizing that whether people follow them now or not, it has no bearing on their final destination.  So, looking at it from "that" standpoint, you're safe in doing what ever your mind desires to do.  You can believe in Christ, or you can reject Christ, because in the end, it's not your faitfulness that matters.  It's God's faithfulness in his redemption for all. 

To be frank with you, I don't thoroughly read every post on a thread.  I read with ears more than I do with eyes.  I listen for sounds apart from the noise.  There is much religious noise in all of us from time to time.  Even me.  Sometimes it takes me a couple paragraphs before I feel life and light flowing out of me.  Sometimes it's right there, and some times, I want to write, I pull up the little white box and I watch the little curser flashing . . as if saying "I don't have all day here, you gonna write something or not?"  And many times, I just back out and say nothing. 

I'm sharing all of that to say that to let you know that we're all on the same road.  We all have our frustrations.  But the road gets a lot rougher when we choose to think that we can live however we choose without experiencing the consequences of those decisions.  As I said, my choices have no affect on my final destination, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those same choices "do" affect the level of peace in me when the storms hit.  They affect my ability to reproduce Christ's nature into others.  And they greatly affect my ability to "see" his truth in every experience in my life, as well as every Word written and spoken.

So, yeah, I "can" live however I want.  But if I choose to live apart from the Father who called me into being, I'm choosing a heck of a lot tougher road, than I am if I acknowledge the fact that I was called forth in love so that I could manifest love to others.  It really isn't about me.  No one is trying to pin any religious crap on you when they say that.  It's simply the Word coming out of us when we say stuff like that.  Jesus said, apart from him, we are nothing.  He's not condemning or rebuking.

It'd be no different than if I went to my 4-year old sons and told them that without me unlocking the car, they can't get in.  It's not a condemnation, it's just letting them know that they'll spare scraping their knuckles or bending their fingernails over backwards, trying to open a locked door.

If we don't acknowledge Christ, the door to that unspeakable joy simply remains locked.  Spiritual vision remains veiled, and freedom, true freedom remains hidden.  No condemnation, just friendly advice.

[Doc]

Hi Doc, thanks for clarifying.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the equivalent of 'olam': 'aionios', rather than 'aion'.  We know that 'aion' can mean a period of time, ie a finite period of time, so that word isn't the problem.  I'm having major problems with 'aionios'.   If we put aside for a minute, it's relationship to 'aion' and look at how it's used in the Greek Septuagint to replace the time word 'olam', then, doesn't this usuage 'prove', what 'aionios' means?  I think we've established that 'olam' is a mystery time word, but it seems to always denote an unknowable length of time.  I can't recall seeing 'olam' used to denote a quality of something.  I may be wrong and please correct me if I am.  So, when you (and others) say that 'aionios' is used to denote 'quality' of something as well as 'time', then what proof do you have for that?  If I read the famous scriputure: Matt 25:46, how can I be sure Jesus isn't just speaking of 'mystery time'?  Jerome used a 'time' word in the Latin translation.  I see no reason why we should read more meaning into this word than we have for 'olam'.  Now, if this is the case, then the comparison of the 'aionios life' and the 'aionios punishment' do seem to point towards a 'time' understanding, and just as we know the 'life' is going to be without end (other scriptures else where tell us this of course), it follows the punishment will be of similar duration.  I hope you can see where I'm coming from. :dontknow:

Hi Cat:

My understanding is that aion (singular) is the equivalent of olam, an indeterminate period of time that has a beginning and an ending. Other forms, such as aionion and aionios mean applying to an aion or aions period of time.

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it?

I'm not saying aionios can't be used in the way you suggest, I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily have to always denote time. Make sense?

[V.I.D.]

There are only two options here V.I.D.  Either you're "for" Christ, or you're "against" him.  To have the nature of Christ manifesting in you, is to have his humility and servanthood.  He didn't come to be served, he came to serve.  Yet much of your comments are about you "being" served.

UR, for me, isn't about me conforming to yet another set of regulations and rules.  It's realizing that whether people follow them now or not, it has no bearing on their final destination.  So, looking at it from "that" standpoint, you're safe in doing what ever your mind desires to do.  You can believe in Christ, or you can reject Christ, because in the end, it's not your faitfulness that matters.  It's God's faithfulness in his redemption for all.

To be frank with you, I don't thoroughly read every post on a thread.  I read with ears more than I do with eyes.  I listen for sounds apart from the noise.  There is much religious noise in all of us from time to time.  Even me.  Sometimes it takes me a couple paragraphs before I feel life and light flowing out of me.  Sometimes it's right there, and some times, I want to write, I pull up the little white box and I watch the little curser flashing . . as if saying "I don't have all day here, you gonna write something or not?"  And many times, I just back out and say nothing.

I'm sharing all of that to say that to let you know that we're all on the same road.  We all have our frustrations.  But the road gets a lot rougher when we choose to think that we can live however we choose without experiencing the consequences of those decisions.  As I said, my choices have no affect on my final destination, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those same choices "do" affect the level of peace in me when the storms hit.  They affect my ability to reproduce Christ's nature into others.  And they greatly affect my ability to "see" his truth in every experience in my life, as well as every Word written and spoken.

So, yeah, I "can" live however I want.  But if I choose to live apart from the Father who called me into being, I'm choosing a heck of a lot tougher road, than I am if I acknowledge the fact that I was called forth in love so that I could manifest love to others.  It really isn't about me.  No one is trying to pin any religious crap on you when they say that.  It's simply the Word coming out of us when we say stuff like that.  Jesus said, apart from him, we are nothing.  He's not condemning or rebuking.

It'd be no different than if I went to my 4-year old sons and told them that without me unlocking the car, they can't get in.  It's not a condemnation, it's just letting them know that they'll spare scraping their knuckles or bending their fingernails over backwards, trying to open a locked door.

If we don't acknowledge Christ, the door to that unspeakable joy simply remains locked.  Spiritual vision remains veiled, and freedom, true freedom remains hidden.  No condemnation, just friendly advice.

When you give me only two options in life ,you condemn me ,because life is not limited by options .


I know just love . Its not ,christ ,buddha ,or enything else.Its just love and i want it for everybody .Yes i am an antichrist thank GOD !I dont name good and love by eny figures ,or beliefs .
And i love all those antichrists there that strugle in that harsh world ,most not knowing what they are doing ,but all wanting deeply the same thing -love .

I dont want Christs ,buddhas ,or others to make it look that without them i am nothing ,or I loose something .
Nice trying to make it look as if i want to be served ,but i allways wanted to achieve my things in life with my own two hands and also wanted to be loved .I never for once did ask from others to lick my b**t and that is the truth . I studied alone ,tried to learn to do things and achieve since i was a small child and that is why i now know things that my other friends do not even understand .

Desiring the imposible and believing that they can achieve ,is the way people can do good for themselves and others and not by staying humbly and reading the Bible all day .Love is the key in every relationship do .

My rebutal to teligion and to universalism just shows what dangers do they keep in their doctrinal thought and nothing more . I do not say do i love God or hate Christ ,or enything .Sometimes i am very mad at God for all the evil in this world and i regect Him ,but sometimes i am so happy because of the beauty and good.

The dualistic thought of * you either accept Christ ,or you are against Him * makes me feel sick .
I have a soul and it wants and gives the same thing ,because GOD made me to be this way Now what and who He is maybe i will be the only one to say that He might be too much of a religion to be known by my mind because ,He MIGHT be bigger than it .

I dont dislike the people that were not humble like your Christs . Because of them now Bulgaria is still here . We were 500 years under Otoman rule and we still have our people and culture as one of the most unique in the world and we are totaly different from Turkey. We gave the Russians their alphabet and ours aswell and what would have happened if we were humble ?Were we gonna free ourselves ?
Nope ,not gonna be humble like it or not !

[V.I.D.]

Sorry for us going a bit off topic . I will not post eny more in this thread.

[Nathan]

There seems to be a theme to your posts bro.  You have an indoctrination in you, even though you see yourself to be "anti" Christ.  I want to look at the bigger picture and see that there's more to life than the tiny little span of time I'm on this earth.  I find it fascinating that you've hung around here for over a year and a half, but yet you choose to believe in no God at all?  Why are you here?  I'm not rebuking you, I'm just curious.

You apparently have some level of belief in God, you'd stated that you get mad at God for all the evil that is on the earth, but you're also happy with God for all the beauty.  Those are not the words of someone who doesn't beleive in God.  But then, maybe it's not God you have the problem with, but it's Jesus. 

Look, God "is" love.  Man is flesh.  Man has an image of love, but love has so many dimensions to it that man just can't fathom but only what's on the surface.  So God goes inward and simply starts "revealing" to man what love is.  And that causes us to make choices.  Either to accept or reject the unveiling.  And we have that ability. 

I find it interesting that even though I tried to emphasize that Jesus wasn't rebuking people when he said without him we are nothing, but yet that's the one thing you chose to identify with.  If you have this love you wish so badly for others to have also, then how is it there is still this negative response to a positive reality?

Do you really "want" your mind to be in control of all things around you?  Do you really think your mind can live forever, but never truly knowing what life and light is?  Believing in Jesus is not a conforming thing at all.  It's a liberating one.  His message was all about breaking from the bondage of our "self" be it through religious avenues or other areas we choose to identify with that causes us to become short-sighted in seeing his nature.  His yoke is easy, his burden is light.  He calls us to cast EVERYTHING upon him because he's taken care of the price required for us to have any kind of life at all.

God isn't "allowing" this evil to happen around us at all.  The power to control evil, he gave to US.  And "this" is what we've done with it.  He didn't do it . . .we did.  People that also rejected him and chose to live life as they pleased.  Not ever wanting to have discipline or boundaries.  I hate religion, I always have and I always will.  Religion is the result of blind men trying to make a path to God.

I for one, know how my mind works.  I know that I get big-headed when I think I've got everything figured out.  I know I'm no fun to be around when I get that way.  I know that I forget more than I learn.  I know that I misunderstand more than I think I have figured out.  I know my love is conditional.  I'll love you so long as you and I are compatible.  But if you smell, both outwardly and inwardly, it won't be long, I'll be looking elsewhere for someone else to pet my ego.  I know how I work and Jesus was right, I'm a nobody.  And if you give me enough rope, I'll hang myself on even that much.

So for me, I'm just flippin ecstatic that God is blind to all of that because I've chosen to say yes to his Son.  He was blind to all of that anyway because of what his Son has already done.  The Jesus you choose to reject . . .doesn't matter one bit to God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  That may make you snicker cuz you've heard many a preachers tell you the same thing.  But I'm not looking to slip my hand in your wallet.  I'm saying it because I've experienced that love.  I'm no more perfect than I was before.  But that's the beauty of it.  He's not looking for perfection, just reception.  And it changed my life.

[V.I.D.]

I dont see myself as an antichrist ,i just said it figuratively.

You have an indoctrination in you, even though you see yourself to be "anti" Christ.

know just love . Its not ,christ ,buddha ,or enything else.
Get it ?
Many people ,because of not believing in religion are named antichrists ,but they strugle and want the same as everyone.

"Man is flesh."
Something in me never liked that idea . I allways thought that we are more than this body and have something precious within us .I never saw myself and others as flesh ,but as living ,feeling beings that do have souls.

negative response to a positive reality?

Reality didnt seem to me too positive .Even if i have love ,people still suffer . Love may be in me ,but all that pain ,evil and so many bad things ,just cant make you close eyes if you do have love .Real love .Even for a moment ,even for this life ,I dont want enybody to be tortured .

because he's taken care of the price required for us to have ANY KIND OF LIFE AT ALL.

I have never seen people as dead ,or wanted to see them this way ,so that i may think some other being needs to give me life .

The power to control evil, he gave to US.

Its not US only. We are not all powerfull here . We have power ,but IN THE flesh its somewhat limited ,by many things ,but i do try to believe that we can ,because if i dont there will be no progress.

I for one, know how my mind works.  I know that I get big-headed when I think I've got everything figured out.  I know I'm no fun to be around when I get that way.  I know that I forget more than I learn.  I know that I misunderstand more than I think I have figured out.  I know my love is conditional.  I'll love you so long as you and I are compatible.  But if you smell, both outwardly and inwardly, it won't be long, I'll be looking elsewhere for someone else to pet my ego.  I know how I work and Jesus was right, I'm a nobody.  And if you give me enough rope, I'll hang myself on even that much.

So for me, I'm just flippin ecstatic that God is blind to all of that because I've chosen to say yes to his Son.  He was blind to all of that anyway because of what his Son has already done.  The Jesus you choose to reject . . .doesn't matter one bit to God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  That may make you snicker cuz you've heard many a preachers tell you the same thing.  But I'm not looking to slip my hand in your wallet.  I'm saying it because I've experienced that love.  I'm no more perfect than I was before.  But that's the beauty of it.  He's not looking for perfection, just reception.  And it changed my life.

If He loves me ,he would not ask me to chose Him in order to be good to me and forgive me for my mistakes.I apreciate when someone forgives without me asking him.This atleast in my eyes makes him be a higher person .
thought i understand what you are saying .

I like you do . You are open ,ask alot and think . That is good.
The more you ask the more you want to see.

[gregoryfl]

About the Hebrew word having the idea of quality, I happened to address that very thing on another message board earlier today, so will repost it here. What I attempt to show is that the word, while it can have the idea of a period of time, when prefixed by the lamed, meaning "to", it is primarily describing the state of being, or quality, that characterizes anything that is hazy, and not clearly known to the natural eye.

What would it have meant to them?

The Hebrew word is OULaM. The picture is of the eyes being led out over the water, to the horizon. What was on the other side was unknown, and what was on the horizon was hazy, unclear to the naked eye.

In speaking of something as LaOULaM, (to the horizon) such as is used most times in the OT, whether it was 3 days and nights, as in Jonah's case, or thousands of years, as in the various aspects of the Law Covenant, the length of time is not the focus, but the quality of the time. It is unknown, indefinate, hazy to the naked eye.

When used as an adjective, as in the case of ChII OULaM, as I understand it, the focus again is not on the length of life, but on the quality of it, namely again, that which pertains to OULaM; unknown, hazy to the naked eye.

The life we have in Christ is indeed that. When one is born again you cannot tell that there is another life that is ours now, that of our Lord. Physically we look like anyone else. But hidden and spiritual indeed is the life that is ours, and that life is characteristic of the one who is life himself, Jesus. For he too is no more to be seen by the world, nor by us, yet we do see him, although with different eyes.

[Cat]

Hi Cat:

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?  No!  The 'quality' element is already a 'given' in that 'eternal' life is all the things that Jesus conveyed (being with Him in His Father's house etc).   If we know Jesus and God then it follows we love them and will be with Them 'forever' (or stretching on over the horizon and outside of our view and comprehension), having been granted 'aionios life'.   If we don't know Jesus and God, then we receive the punishment, not the life

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it? Yes and no. It is a 'time' statement and the fact that the life is 'without end' comforts the believers.  Actually it is a quality statement too ie the life is going to stretch on past the horizon and out of human view.  I'm struggling to get over to you what I mean.  I'll ponder what you've said some more. 

[Cat]

About the Hebrew word having the idea of quality, I happened to address that very thing on another message board earlier today, so will repost it here. What I attempt to show is that the word, while it can have the idea of a period of time, when prefixed by the lamed, meaning "to", it is primarily describing the state of being, or quality, that characterizes anything that is hazy, and not clearly known to the natural eye.

What would it have meant to them?

The Hebrew word is OULaM. The picture is of the eyes being led out over the water, to the horizon. What was on the other side was unknown, and what was on the horizon was hazy, unclear to the naked eye.

In speaking of something as LaOULaM, (to the horizon) such as is used most times in the OT, whether it was 3 days and nights, as in Jonah's case, or thousands of years, as in the various aspects of the Law Covenant, the length of time is not the focus, but the quality of the time. It is unknown, indefinate, hazy to the naked eye. Surely, it's the 'time' factor that is 'unknown' and 'hazy'.  Jonah didn't know how long he would be in the fish. I'm pretty sure he had an idea what life in the fish would be like.  I'm really struggling to see how the word 'owlam' is meaning more than the 'mystery time'.  Mountains that are 'eternal' (owlam) are first and foremost enduring.  We can surmise why they are enduring but the word 'owlam' does not explain that.  Surely it's just a time word.

When used as an adjective, as in the case of ChII OULaM, as I understand it, the focus again is not on the length of life, but on the quality of it, namely again, that which pertains to OULaM; unknown, hazy to the naked eye.

The life we have in Christ is indeed that. When one is born again you cannot tell that there is another life that is ours now, that of our Lord. Physically we look like anyone else. But hidden and spiritual indeed is the life that is ours, and that life is characteristic of the one who is life himself, Jesus. For he too is no more to be seen by the world, nor by us, yet we do see him, although with different eyes.

[Doc]

Hi Cat:

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?  No!  The 'quality' element is already a 'given' in that 'eternal' life is all the things that Jesus conveyed (being with Him in His Father's house etc).   If we know Jesus and God then it follows we love them and will be with Them 'forever' (or stretching on over the horizon and outside of our view and comprehension), having been granted 'aionios life'.   If we don't know Jesus and God, then we receive the punishment, not the life

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it? Yes and no. It is a 'time' statement and the fact that the life is 'without end' comforts the believers.  Actually it is a quality statement too ie the life is going to stretch on past the horizon and out of human view.  I'm struggling to get over to you what I mean.  I'll ponder what you've said some more. 

Cat, I think you're still stuck on the meaning of eternal in the modern sense vs. olam/ aion/ aionion/ aionios in the Hebrew and Greek. The meaning of the modern English 'eternal' is literally forever, without end (and usually without beginning as well). Olam and aion did not include this concept. We know this because of how they're actually used in scripture. The Greek in particular has completely different words that we translate as immortal and incorruptible, which actually convey the sense of unending. Length of time and quality are completely different concepts, and I think you're having trouble separating them, because of ideas we've had traditionally associated with "eternity". Perhaps it's simpler to keep the definitions of aionion and aionios on the time side of things, by simply stating it as pertaining to an aion or aions.

[Cat]

Hi Doc,  thank you for your patience in this matter. I've found some old correspondence regarding this.  So I'll re-read it and see if it sinks in this time.  I'll come back to you on this.