Tentmaker Forum

I was sent this scripture recently: 2 Thess 2:10 ''....They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.'' 

There are many other verses where it seems that getting 'saved' is something that must be accomplished while you are alive (on the earth).  Never do any of these verses have a proviso added on the end: 'but those who are perishing or condemned (judged guilty) will be saved in the age to come or the age after that one', or 'don't worry if you don't get 'aionios life' now or in the age to come because it's still available after you die'.  'Being saved' equals 'aionios life'??   If you haven't got 'aionios life' then you aren't saved and no where does it say 'you are being saved whilst receiving 'aionios punishment'.  If the bible teaches that we are really dead when we die ie we don't exist, then how can we be in the process of being saved if we are dead?   :mshock:

Just changing the subject, I've been thinking about 'free will' and our being responsible for our actions.  It seems scientists are discovering that our behaviour and 'choices' are determined to a good extent (or possibly completely determined).  If that is so, why all the 'wasted lives' throughout the centuries?  Why try to change how people are, as they can't really change unless a supernatural act of God intervenes for them?  (which doesn't seem to happen for the majority of us)  Why not just sort it out at the beginning and not allow us to go on our collision courses?  If though, we do have some sort of limited control over our behaviour then this might suggest that God can't change certain people as we imagine He can do.  So that could explain why God does not grant aionios life to ALL humans.-   I must admit the UR position sounds far better, but that doesn't mean it's right.  We didn't used to exist, so if God decides to end our existence, that is up to Him as unfair as that may seem to us.

   

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PM
I was sent this scripture recently: 2 Thess 2:10 "....They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 

There are many other verses where it seems that getting 'saved' is something that must be accomplished while you are alive (on the earth).  Never do any of these verses have a proviso added on the end: 'but those who are perishing or condemned (judged guilty) will be saved in the age to come or the age after that one', or 'don't worry if you don't get 'aionios life' now or in the age to come because it's still available after you die'.  'Being saved' equals 'aionios life'??   If you haven't got 'aionios life' then you aren't saved and no where does it say 'you are being saved whilst receiving 'aionios punishment'.  If the bible teaches that we are really dead when we die ie we don't exist, then how can we be in the process of being saved if we are dead?   :mshock:

Just changing the subject, I've been thinking about 'free will' and our being responsible for our actions.  It seems scientists are discovering that our behaviour and 'choices' are determined to a good extent (or possibly completely determined).  If that is so, why all the 'wasted lives' throughout the centuries?  Why try to change how people are, as they can't really change unless a supernatural act of God intervenes for them?  (which doesn't seem to happen for the majority of us)  Why not just sort it out at the beginning and not allow us to go on our collision courses?  If though, we do have some sort of limited control over our behaviour then this might suggest that God can't change certain people as we imagine He can do.  So that could explain why God does not grant aionios life to ALL humans.-   I must admit the UR position sounds far better, but that doesn't mean it's right.  We didn't used to exist, so if God decides to end our existence, that is up to Him as unfair as that may seem to us.

Well, I don't know all the answers, but I know verses like this one in Zephaniah suggest that God's judgements bring purified lips and unite shoulders:

Zephaniah 3:8-9 (Young's Literal Translation)

Quote8Therefore, wait for Me -- an affirmation of Jehovah, For the day of My rising for prey, For My judgment [is] to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them Mine indignation, All the heat of Mine anger, For by the fire of My jealousy consumed is all the earth.

9For then do I turn unto peoples a pure lip, To call all of them by the name of Jehovah, To serve Him [with] one shoulder.

Zephaniah 3:8-9 (Amplified Bible)

Quote8Therefore [earnestly] wait for Me, says the Lord, [waiting] for the day when I rise up to the attack [as a witness, accuser, or judge, and a testimony]. For My decision and determination and right it is to gather the nations together, to assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them My indignation, even all [the heat of] My fierce anger; for [in that day] all the earth shall be consumed with the fire of My zeal and jealousy.

    9For then [changing their impure language] I will give to the people a clear and pure speech from pure lips, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one unanimous consent and one united shoulder [bearing the yoke of the Lord].

Furthermore, this next verse suggests that God's judgements have an allotted time period, to only last UNTIL God accomplishes the desire of his heart and mind:

Jeremiah 30:23-26 (Young's Literal Translation)

Quote23Lo, a whirlwind of Jehovah -- Fury hath gone forth -- a cutting whirlwind, On the head of the wicked it stayeth.

24The fierceness of the anger of Jehovah Doth not turn back till His doing, Yea, till His establishing the devices of His heart, In the latter end of the days we consider it!

Jeremiah 30:23-26 (Amplified Bible)

Quote23Behold, the tempest of the Lord has gone forth with wrath, a sweeping and gathering tempest; it shall whirl and burst upon the heads of the wicked.

    24The fierce anger and indignation of the Lord shall not turn back until He has executed and accomplished the thoughts and intents of His mind and heart. In the latter days you shall understand this.

Notice also what it says in Thess 2:10-11:

Quote10 and with every seduction of injustice among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation.
11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
12 that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice.

Now, look at THIS:

1 Timothy 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation):

Quote4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Now what's interesting about this? Well, either these two verses contradict because one says that God desires ALL MEN to be saved, and yet, he ALSO specifically allows certain individuals to be deceived; or God is too weak to save ALL men, even though he really wishes he could; or God doesn't wish all to be saved; OR God WILL save all men, but in their own time, and AFTER/THROUGH his judging them.

Well, we know it shouldn't be that they contradict each other (and for the sake of argument it shouldn't be included in this discussion). It's not that he's too weak, as the inhabitants of the Earth count as nothing to him (in comparison to his power):

Daniel 4:35 (Amplified Bible)

Quote35And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing. And He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand or say to Him, What are You doing?

Now, I suppose it could be argued that God doesn't really wish all men to be saved, but it says that he takes no delight in the death of the wicked. Thus, if he really didn't take delight in the death of the wicked, then he wouldn't forsake the wicked and judge them to an ultimate doom and gloom in Hell or to be annihilated. Also, considering he takes not delight in the death of the wicked he would not pre-plan them to be judged unto death. (Think about it: if he created certain individuals knowing that they would be annihilated/thrown into Hell forever, then he obviously planned for this fate to befall them. Otherwise he could have simply chosen not to create them.)

I think the only option is that God's judgements bring life to the wicked, as spoken of in Zephaniah, and he will vivify and bring all men to spiritual life (not simply resurrected) in Christ as spoken of in 1 Cor 15:22.

1 Cor. 15:22

Quote22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.

So will men be judged? I would assume so, based on the Thess. 2:12. But that doesn't mean they won't be saved/purified/vivified, what have you, in the end, when God is ALL in ALL.  :bigGrin:

***

If that means to be saved, then so be it. All men will be saved. But honestly, the whole reference in Thess could have been making reference to the judgement about to befall the wicked in 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem (and them not being saved from THAT). That's a shorter answer. lol

God bless ya, Cat!  :bigGrin:

Hi Tim,  thanks for your thoughts on this.  Those are good verses you have quoted.  I can't help thinking though, that the two aspects: 'judgment = destruction' and the 'change or restoration' are not for the same individual people, but for the 'nations' or groups.  The individual 'sinners' of each period where God 'destroys' e.g The Flood, various wars in the OT, destruction of the temples etc, are not the same individuals who are then later restored.  When God is talking about being reconciled to Him, He is (seems to) it is 'Israel' comprised of different people who are no longer doing what there predecessors did.  I don't get any impression from reading the OT or the NT that those who the wrath of God remains on, are to be restored along with those who repent and turn to Jesus etc.  When I listen to Jesus talking about two distinct groups of people (and I know He was referring to the imment destruction in 70 AD- but the same principles apply for us) those who receive aionios life and those who receive aionios punishment I don't get the impression that He was only referring to the disobedient ones ending up dead and dishonourably buried in Gehenna.  He doesn't go on to talk about after the aionios punishment.  This seems strange.  I'm still trying to understand the meaning of 'aionios'.  The way it is used of the life that Jesus offers means it must be a very important definition.  Surely Jerome, only 400 years later, wouldn't have deliberately mistranslated it!   :sigh:

However no matter how I look at it, UR makes the most sense all round.  Everything about it screams out 'truth'.  But I'm wary of our human reasoning being unreliable. 

Quote from: Cat on July 24, 2009, 04:21:10 PM
Hi Tim,  thanks for your thoughts on this.  Those are good verses you have quoted.  I can't help thinking though, that the two aspects: 'judgment = destruction' and the 'change or restoration' are not for the same individual people, but for the 'nations' or groups.  The individual 'sinners' of each period where God 'destroys' e.g The Flood, various wars in the OT, destruction of the temples etc, are not the same individuals who are then later restored.  When God is talking about being reconciled to Him, He is (seems to) it is 'Israel' comprised of different people who are no longer doing what there predecessors did.  I don't get any impression from reading the OT or the NT that those who the wrath of God remains on, are to be restored along with those who repent and turn to Jesus etc.  When I listen to Jesus talking about two distinct groups of people (and I know He was referring to the imment destruction in 70 AD- but the same principles apply for us) those who receive aionios life and those who receive aionios punishment I don't get the impression that He was only referring to the disobedient ones ending up dead and dishonourably buried in Gehenna.  He doesn't go on to talk about after the aionios punishment.  This seems strange.  I'm still trying to understand the meaning of 'aionios'.  The way it is used of the life that Jesus offers means it must be a very important definition.  Surely Jerome, only 400 years later, wouldn't have deliberately mistranslated it!   :sigh:

However no matter how I look at it, UR makes the most sense all round.  Everything about it screams out 'truth'.  But I'm wary of our human reasoning being unreliable. 

Hi Cat, the destruction happens to everyone.  The Lord sits as a refiners fire and as fullers soap:

Mal 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

A refiners fire is used to remove the dross from the metal so that what emerges from the fire is precious.  Fuller's soap is used to make a Garment white.   Those are wonderful things. 

God's WRATH actually works GOOD unto those that receive it.  It will help lower the mountain of their pride so that when they become a valley of humbleness they were revere the Lord and understand His Goodness.

Paul

Just some thoughts:

"aionios" life does not mean eternal life, or salvation (although it is part of being saved).  "aionios" life means to know God:

John 17:3 Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So if you don't know God, you probably aren't saved, because you are still living for your carnal self.  But one day all will know God - when they are bowing and confessing to Him.  And the knowledge of the Lord shall fill the earth (Isa 11:9, Hab 2:14).  Therefore all will know God - all will have life.

Part of the problem is the confusing teachings of churchianity that have been ingrained into us.

Quote from: Cat on July 24, 2009, 04:21:10 PM
However no matter how I look at it, UR makes the most sense all round.  Everything about it screams out 'truth'.  But I'm wary of our human reasoning being unreliable. 

That's where the faith, prayer, and trust in God comes in.  That is part of "knowing God", and "knowing God" is aionios life.

Hi trettep,  thanks for your reply.  I can see how God uses 'killings' or 'wiping out' to refine His People, but I still can't see how the 'dross' is separated from the 'wicked' person.  It's as if the 'wicked' person is the dross being removed (killed off) in order for the whole (Israel back then, the Church now), to be refined.  I can't see how it did Ananias and Saphhira any good being killed when they lied to the Holy Spirit if its purpose was to refine them.  They'll 'wake' up in Judgment and still have to face what he did??  If they'd gone through a period of being punished by the apostles or by God, surely they would have then been corrected and realised what they'd done?  I get scared when I read that particular account, as it shows the seriousness and severity of God's judgments.   David went through a period of depression and pain due to his sin.  During this time he was corrected and restored.  See how the two types of people are treated differently?  The only time it speaks of a person being refined by fire in the NT, is in relation to believers, not those perishing.

Legoman, I've been pondering and pondering the meaning of 'aionios' (with much prayer).  The most certain way to understand its meaning is if we understand its Hebrew counterpart 'olam'.  As the Septuagint was written around the time of Christ, we can be sure that the word chosen for 'olam' is the correct one.  I've discovered that olam is a 'time' word and denotes mystery time or time that stretches back or forward, that we can't comprehend.  This is very close then to the Greek concept of 'eternal'.  If something goes on indefinately and we can't see the 'end' of it, that's pretty much the same as eternal, I would say.  It has been suggested that 'aionios' isn't a 'time' word at all, but a word denoting 'belonging' or 'pertaining' to the aion.  I can see how that makes sense when you compare words like 'Christian'- belonging to Christ, Edwardian- of the period of King Edward, etc etc.  However, 'olam' does not have that 'belonging' meaning, but a 'time' meaning.  This would explain why Jerome would translate it as 'eternal' in the Latin.  Here's a short excerpt from an article I found on aionios:

''the essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God.''

http://www.word-gems.com/time.aionios.html

That article seems to make a lot of sense. 

Quote from: Cat on July 24, 2009, 08:46:20 PM
"the essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God."

I'm not sure what the entire article states, but this suggestion simply can't be true. Josephus (the famous Jewish scholar) used the word "aionios" in reference to how long a man (John) was within jail. That doesn't have anything to do with God.

Hi Tim B.  That particular quote isn't the whole 'explanation' so you do need to read the article to see what it is saying.  It makes some good points but that particular 'claim' as I quoted, may be taking it a bit too far.  As you rightly note, it can be used of 'earthly' things, to convey 'unseen' time, as in the case of the man John.  His jail term is not necessarily known to Josephus at the time of his writing about it, so it would have stretched on indefinately.  (So I am reliably told).

Quote from: Cat on July 24, 2009, 08:46:20 PM
Hi trettep,  thanks for your reply.  I can see how God uses 'killings' or 'wiping out' to refine His People, but I still can't see how the 'dross' is separated from the 'wicked' person.  It's as if the 'wicked' person is the dross being removed (killed off) in order for the whole (Israel back then, the Church now), to be refined.  I can't see how it did Ananias and Saphhira any good being killed when they lied to the Holy Spirit if its purpose was to refine them.  They'll 'wake' up in Judgment and still have to face what he did??  If they'd gone through a period of being punished by the apostles or by God, surely they would have then been corrected and realised what they'd done?  I get scared when I read that particular account, as it shows the seriousness and severity of God's judgments.   David went through a period of depression and pain due to his sin.  During this time he was corrected and restored.  See how the two types of people are treated differently?  The only time it speaks of a person being refined by fire in the NT, is in relation to believers, not those perishing.

Legoman, I've been pondering and pondering the meaning of 'aionios' (with much prayer).  The most certain way to understand its meaning is if we understand its Hebrew counterpart 'olam'.  As the Septuagint was written around the time of Christ, we can be sure that the word chosen for 'olam' is the correct one.  I've discovered that olam is a 'time' word and denotes mystery time or time that stretches back or forward, that we can't comprehend.  This is very close then to the Greek concept of 'eternal'.  If something goes on indefinately and we can't see the 'end' of it, that's pretty much the same as eternal, I would say.  It has been suggested that 'aionios' isn't a 'time' word at all, but a word denoting 'belonging' or 'pertaining' to the aion.  I can see how that makes sense when you compare words like 'Christian'- belonging to Christ, Edwardian- of the period of King Edward, etc etc.  However, 'olam' does not have that 'belonging' meaning, but a 'time' meaning.  This would explain why Jerome would translate it as 'eternal' in the Latin.  Here's a short excerpt from an article I found on aionios:

"the essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God."

http://www.word-gems.com/time.aionios.html

That article seems to make a lot of sense. 

Hi Cat, we all have a spirit.  A spirit is that part of you that is your "being" it is what makes YOU, YOU.  Some might call it your "personality".  God's personality is definately a different personality then ours.  What ours have in common is that we naturally seek to satisfy #1 - our SELF. 

God gives us His Spirit - THE HOLY SPIRIT.  The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father in Heaven.  It is His own. Recall I said that a spirit is "being".  Since our Spirit is contrary to God's since His is NOT self centered then our spirit will be destroyed as we put on His Spirit.  For example, the self would say no I'm not going to give my last dime to help someone else whereas His Spirit in us would do so.

So this is where the destruction is.  It is the destruction of OUR Carnal Self-centered - Flesh serving spirit.  That is the dross, that is the filth that stains the Garment.  We need a washing of this filth from us, NEVER to return, we need a annihilation of this evil self-centered spirit in order to be PURE and HOLY. 

The death of Ananias and Saphhira was GOOD for THEM!  It was good because if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit (which they did) then they have to pay for those sins.  Had they continued in such blasphemy they would have reaped even greater recompense.  They would have most likely continued in that evil nature and continued to reap upon them more wrath.  In the parable of the unforgiving servant we learn that he would be punished ONLY until he payed all that was OWED.  Then he would no longer be under wrath once that which was owed was paid.  So their death was GOOD for them. 

Regarding aionios, it means "age-enduring".  It doesn't give a reference to the end point for we don't know what the end point is.  The end point is actually CONCEALED from us.  Therefore, it only means a CONTINUING point.  So if something is aionios it CONTINUES BEYOND the AGE (aion).  So it doesn't necessarily mean a duration that is infinite or finate.  It doesn't answer to that.  It simply tells us that it continues beyond.  But if something can continue beyond this age then it probably does exhibit qualities that not essential to this age.

Hope this all helps.

Paul

Most people probably don't think being handed over to the devil helps anything either. But, apparently, it does! Paul had two people turned over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. It's almost like the devil is used for disciplinary purposes (kind of like God's spanking "rod").

'Being handed over to the Devil' seems to be for people who are 'alive' and doing something contrary to what God wants.  They will learn by this experience hopefully, as in the case of the man who was with his father's wife.  By 'shunning' him, or treating him in a way that showed him what he was doing was wrong, would hopefully bring him to his senses, which I'm pretty certain it did do.  The account of Ananias and Saphhira seems to be quite different.  They were judged instantly guilty of something that could not be made up for in their human life.   There are no words of comfort for a future time when they will be restored and forgiven.   They are not given an opportunity to 'realise' what they have done and then ask for forgiveness:mshock:  So, bad as what they did was, it seems a waste of their lives, if they will be forgiven and shown the error of their ways in the future.  But, I'm using my human reasonings again, and God's ways are so different to ours.  If God can forgive David for scheming to have a man murdered and steal his wife, then I'm sure God can sort these two out for keeping back a bit of money.   :grin:

Quote from: Cat on July 24, 2009, 08:46:20 PM
Hi trettep,  thanks for your reply.  I can see how God uses 'killings' or 'wiping out' to refine His People, but I still can't see how the 'dross' is separated from the 'wicked' person.  It's as if the 'wicked' person is the dross being removed (killed off) in order for the whole (Israel back then, the Church now), to be refined.  I can't see how it did Ananias and Saphhira any good being killed when they lied to the Holy Spirit if its purpose was to refine them.  They'll 'wake' up in Judgment and still have to face what he did??  If they'd gone through a period of being punished by the apostles or by God, surely they would have then been corrected and realised what they'd done?  I get scared when I read that particular account, as it shows the seriousness and severity of God's judgments.   David went through a period of depression and pain due to his sin.  During this time he was corrected and restored.  See how the two types of people are treated differently?  The only time it speaks of a person being refined by fire in the NT, is in relation to believers, not those perishing.

Legoman, I've been pondering and pondering the meaning of 'aionios' (with much prayer).  The most certain way to understand its meaning is if we understand its Hebrew counterpart 'olam'.  As the Septuagint was written around the time of Christ, we can be sure that the word chosen for 'olam' is the correct one.  I've discovered that olam is a 'time' word and denotes mystery time or time that stretches back or forward, that we can't comprehend.  This is very close then to the Greek concept of 'eternal'.  If something goes on indefinately and we can't see the 'end' of it, that's pretty much the same as eternal, I would say.  It has been suggested that 'aionios' isn't a 'time' word at all, but a word denoting 'belonging' or 'pertaining' to the aion.  I can see how that makes sense when you compare words like 'Christian'- belonging to Christ, Edwardian- of the period of King Edward, etc etc.  However, 'olam' does not have that 'belonging' meaning, but a 'time' meaning.  This would explain why Jerome would translate it as 'eternal' in the Latin.  Here's a short excerpt from an article I found on aionios:

"the essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God."

http://www.word-gems.com/time.aionios.html

That article seems to make a lot of sense. 

However, if you look back at the Latin "Aeternum" definition, you will see that even it did not originally have the definition of our modern "eternity". This was a meaning added later by theologians who were frankly making assumptions. When aion and its derivatives pertain to time, it's clear from the context. When they pertain to quality, rather than quantity, it's also fairly clear from the context (or at least some context somewhere in the scripture). The primary meaning of aion is a time reference, so it cannot be applied directly to mean strict eternity. But there may be an eternal (outside of time) quality to things that may or may not apply to things with any time (quantity) reference at all. They are two separate things that may be coincidental, yet at the same time mutually exclusive. Just because something has an aionios quality doesn't mean it necessarily has or doesn't have an aionios "duration". This is a large part of why the Augustinian argument that "if aionios life is unending, then so is the punishment", fails so miserably.

Hi Doc,  good to chat to you again.  I don't know if I follow your thoughts clearly on this.  I'm wondering if this 'quality' definition of 'aionios' is misleading and proveable?  If we take 'olam', I don't recall it being used to denote 'quality' of a situation.  The examples I've looked at, all seem to relate to 'duration' ie a length of time that is unmeasurable to a human perspective.  Now if the life that Jesus talks of is 'aionios', we straightaway think of everlasting life, or life that stretches on and on out of sight because we know that 'olam' means this.  The same applies to the punishment (I'm not for a minute saying this is conscious punishment).  Are there scriputures in the OT where 'olam' is being used, that suggest 'quality' rather than 'duration'?  If so, then this would lend support to 'aionios' being able to have 'both' meanings.  If not, then maybe 'aionios' is just a 'duration of unkown time' word.   As we assume the 'life' we receive goes on and on, it follows we assume the punishment (cutting off from life) goes on and on.

willieH: Hi Cat! :hithere:

So glad you are joining in discussion here at TM!  I haven't read the responses to your OP, but here's mine:

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PM
I was sent this scripture recently: 2 Thess 2:10 "....They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 

"Saved" from what is the question.  If --

(1) JESUS "took away" the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- then what "SIN" remains to "condemn" us? -- and,

(2) GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- How can ANY PERISH, if SALVATION is ENTIRELY ...HIS work?  :dontknow: ...and,

(3) JESUS "tasted DEATH" for EVERY Man -- Heb 2:9 -- what "death" did He "taste" if not that which is REQUIRED to atone for SIN... and,

(4) SALVATION (as in "saved" or "redeemed" from SIN -- which He "took AWAY") is NOT performed in ANY portion by US -- Eph 2:8-9 -- So the work of SALVATION from SIN is ...ENTIRELY... performed by GOD...

Then IMO this particular "saved", is not talking about SALVATION (as in "saved" from SIN)...  :dontknow:

Notice the verse says THEY PERISH, ...NOT... they WILL or SHALL PERISH... It is stated in PRESENT TENSE...

I believe this is a wonderful clue as to what "perish" is being spoken of in this passage... which is remaining "DEAD" while IN ...THIS LIFE... by SOWING to the flesh, reaping its corruptions... and it is THAT which those who "love the TRUTH", are "SAVED" from...

About the "saved" portion... Rev 3:18 -- IMHO speaks of what this particular "saved" is speaking of... which is the SHAME of NAKEDNESS (unclothed of CHRIST)... And shall they suffer the EXPOSURE of their SIN, (not "pay" for it, in some never-ending scenario that the Christian RELIGION proposes)

IOW... let us take YOU for instance Cat... YOU have confessed the name of CHRIST, and BELIEVED upon Him as the Son of GOD... which is the beginning of putting on the "clothing" of CHRIST... there is more to it than that... We must be about GIVING HIM the "credit" and "glory" for any and ALL things which bring others to HIM...

The "CLOTHING" of CHRIST is HIM doing things IN and THROUGH you, ...you do not "do" them, for YOU are DEAD to yourself, and thereby ALIVE ...IN HIM... therefore HE is "doing" the "doing"...  :dontknow:

MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- shall note these "righteousnesses" things as having been done BY THEM (even though their "clothing" is Scripturally noted as FILTHY RAGS), which shall DENY them the "CLOTHING", being INIQUITOUS in their SELF ADORNMENT... NAKED in their "filthy rags" which thought to have done these deeds of "righteousness" themselves... :shrug: (JMHO)

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PMThere are many other verses where it seems that getting 'saved' is something that must be accomplished while you are alive (on the earth).  Never do any of these verses have a proviso added on the end: 'but those who are perishing or condemned (judged guilty) will be saved in the age to come or the age after that one', or 'don't worry if you don't get 'aionios life' now or in the age to come because it's still available after you die'.

CHRIST was SENT -- NOT to CONDEMN -- which means THREE THINGS (and anyone can accept them or not):

(1) -- the SENDER (who is an UNCHANGING entity) YHVH -- made A condition of NON-CONDEMNATION... so the INNOVATOR (and SENDER) of the MISSION of CHRIST, requires NO CONDEMNATION be done -- John 3:17

(2) -- There is not ONE instance in CHRIST's ministry where HE CONDEMNED anyone... so He FULFILLED the WILL of YHVH, and did NOT condemn...

(3) -- If YHVH does NOT condemn, and JESUS does NOT condemn... wherein is CONDEMNATION?  I'll tell you where:  IN the SELFISHLY oriented and contrived, RELIGIONS of MEN...

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PM'Being saved' equals 'aionios life'??   If you haven't got 'aionios life' then you aren't saved and no where does it say 'you are being saved whilst receiving 'aionios punishment'.  If the bible teaches that we are really dead when we die ie we don't exist, then how can we be in the process of being saved if we are dead?   :mshock:

The same question can be asked in reverse, Cat...

ALL shall be RESURRECTED... "resurrection" is unto LIFE... Where does it say that we CANNOT be "SAVED" in Resurrection and judgment?  :dunno:

Also, where does it say that you are "SAVED" ONLY in THIS LIFETIME?  :dontknow:

QuoteJust changing the subject, I've been thinking about 'free will' and our being responsible for our actions.  It seems scientists are discovering that our behaviour and 'choices' are determined to a good extent (or possibly completely determined).  If that is so, why all the 'wasted lives' throughout the centuries?

I have a good answer for this, but you are welcome to disagree with it!  :happygrin:

CREATION is about GOD... GOD is not about "CREATION"... What I am saying is that IT is NOT "ABOUT us" -- that is selfishness... it IS ...ABOUT HIM!

Religion is about ALWAYS making this whole thing, ABOUT US -- When did YOU get saved?  -- When did YOU "find" CHRIST? -- How many people have YOU led to Him? -- What have YOU done for GOD?  How often do YOU go to church?  What positions do YOU hold in the church?  Is it YOUR church that has the TRUTH? How much TRUTH do YOU know? --  :rolleye:

Failing to realize that it is NOT about ANY of that!  It is about being RAISED to the CONSCIOUSNESS that GOD is EVERYTHING!  And all WE are IN TOTAL... is NOTHING,  ...to which HE very GRACIOUSLY and GENEROUSLY, ...GIVES of HIMSELF...

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PMWhy try to change how people are, as they can't really change unless a supernatural act of God intervenes for them? (which doesn't seem to happen for the majority of us)  Why not just sort it out at the beginning and not allow us to go on our collision courses?

I guess this is trying to wrangle into "free will" versus "sovereignty"... but I believe our courses are MEANT to be as they are... It is the LIVING portrayal of GOOD versus EVIL, in which we ALL play a part... which, at its conclusion, is meant to MAGNIFY GOD as -- the GOOD, LOVING, MERCIFUL and COMPASSIONATE being that He ...IS... It is NOT about US... It is ALL ABOUT HIM! -- That's my opinion...

I don't ever seek to change anyone... I seek to be a tool in His hand, to be used BY HIM, if HE so chooses, according to HIS WILL and HIS Working of ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- Giving HIM ALL the credit due for ANYTHING postive which might be seen occuring within the history of my life...  :mblush:

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PMIf though, we do have some sort of limited control over our behaviour then this might suggest that God can't change certain people as we imagine He can do.  So that could explain why God does not grant aionios life to ALL humans.-   I must admit the UR position sounds far better, but that doesn't mean it's right.  We didn't used to exist, so if God decides to end our existence, that is up to Him as unfair as that may seem to us.

Do we think even for a moment, that that which WE DO, dictates to the one which holds ALL POWER? -- Rom 13:1 --  Can the CLAY have the audacity to think it FORMS ITSELF?

If we have ANY "power" to do either good OR evil... then that "power" was given by, and emerges from, ...HIS HAND, and is for the good of ALL... which is to satisfy HIS PURPOSE...

However it all works out... it is HIS WILL... and He claims He is LOVE... I for one, am quite confident in the AGENDA of LOVE... as is outlined in 1 Cor 13

peace sis... :Peace:

Hi WillieH,  good to chat to you again.  I'll ponder all your points more thoroughly over the weekend and come back to you if I have any questions. 

God bless  Cat.

Quote from: Cat on July 22, 2009, 11:41:35 PM
I was sent this scripture recently: 2 Thess 2:10 "....They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 

There are many other verses where it seems that getting 'saved' is something that must be accomplished while you are alive (on the earth).  Never do any of these verses have a proviso added on the end: 'but those who are perishing or condemned (judged guilty) will be saved in the age to come or the age after that one', or 'don't worry if you don't get 'aionios life' now or in the age to come because it's still available after you die'.  'Being saved' equals 'aionios life'??   If you haven't got 'aionios life' then you aren't saved and no where does it say 'you are being saved whilst receiving 'aionios punishment'.  If the bible teaches that we are really dead when we die ie we don't exist, then how can we be in the process of being saved if we are dead?   :mshock:

Just changing the subject, I've been thinking about 'free will' and our being responsible for our actions.  It seems scientists are discovering that our behaviour and 'choices' are determined to a good extent (or possibly completely determined).  If that is so, why all the 'wasted lives' throughout the centuries?  Why try to change how people are, as they can't really change unless a supernatural act of God intervenes for them?  (which doesn't seem to happen for the majority of us)  Why not just sort it out at the beginning and not allow us to go on our collision courses?  If though, we do have some sort of limited control over our behaviour then this might suggest that God can't change certain people as we imagine He can do.  So that could explain why God does not grant aionios life to ALL humans.-   I must admit the UR position sounds far better, but that doesn't mean it's right.  We didn't used to exist, so if God decides to end our existence, that is up to Him as unfair as that may seem to us.

Indeed Cat,

Just as WillieH went into great detail.

You need to ask Why? Why do they refuse to love the truth and so be saved? What saith the scriptures?

Mar 4:10  And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of thekingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest theyshould turn and be forgiven."

Blinded lest they should turn and be forgiven?

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking.  The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,  8  as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

What does this mean? You do not have the "free will" to decide, as it's been made for you as scripture shows...

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

ESV 2Th 2:13  But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

The Chosen are the firstfruits.



Paul

Joh 12:40  `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

2Co 4:4  in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

''The Chosen are the firstfruits.''

Well, this does make a lot of sense.  I just wish Jesus, or Paul could have added ''but eventually everyone will be 'unhardened', and be reconciled to God, even those who perish in Gehenna or Hades''.  Life would be so much easier............ :dontknow:

Quote from: Cat on September 05, 2009, 07:18:28 PM
"The Chosen are the firstfruits."

Well, this does make a lot of sense.  I just wish Jesus, or Paul could have added "but eventually everyone will be 'unhardened', and be reconciled to God, even those who perish in Gehenna or Hades".  Life would be so much easier............ :dontknow:

Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel doth seek after, this it did not obtain, and the chosen did obtain, and the rest were hardened,

Rom 11:8  according as it hath been written, `God gave to them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear,' --unto this very day,

Rom 11:10  let their eyes be darkened--not to behold, and their back do Thou always bow down.'

Rom 11:12  and if the fall of them is the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them?

Rom 11:15  for if the casting away of them is a reconciliation of the world, what the reception--if not life out of the dead?

Rom 11:16  and if the first-fruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, the branches also.

Rom 11:26  and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Thanks Zeek.  Some good points to ponder......... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cat on September 05, 2009, 07:18:28 PM
"The Chosen are the firstfruits."

Well, this does make a lot of sense.  I just wish Jesus, or Paul could have added "but eventually everyone will be 'unhardened', and be reconciled to God, even those who perish in Gehenna or Hades".  Life would be so much easier............ :dontknow:

Cat,

If there are firstfruits they can only be the first if something follows. 2nd, 3rd fruits.
Firstfruits is the first harvest of the year. It's a small harvest (few elect). The harvest in the fall is the largest.
God is a farmer. Seeds. Wheat. Tars. Chaff. Firstfruits. Prune. Water. etc etc.
It's no coincidence that the day Jesus rose from the dead on or moments before the Jewis firstfruits spring harvest feast.

IMO it's not unscriptual to compare normal harvesting with 'harvesting of souls'

Quote from: Zeek on September 05, 2009, 08:43:32 PM

Quote from: Cat on September 05, 2009, 07:18:28 PM
"The Chosen are the firstfruits."

Well, this does make a lot of sense.  I just wish Jesus, or Paul could have added "but eventually everyone will be 'unhardened', and be reconciled to God, even those who perish in Gehenna or Hades".  Life would be so much easier............ :dontknow:

Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel doth seek after, this it did not obtain, and the chosen did obtain, and the rest were hardened,

Rom 11:8  according as it hath been written, `God gave to them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear,' --unto this very day,

Rom 11:10  let their eyes be darkened--not to behold, and their back do Thou always bow down.'

Rom 11:12  and if the fall of them is the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them?

Rom 11:15  for if the casting away of them is a reconciliation of the world, what the reception--if not life out of the dead?

Rom 11:16  and if the first-fruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, the branches also.

Rom 11:26  and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If Paul believes in the ENTIRE salvation of ALL of Israel based off of the above highlighted verse, does it not follow, quite easily, that Jesus is the Savior of THE WHOLE WORLD and that ALL the world will be saved, because He is "the savior of the world" (1 John 4:13-14) who "takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29)?

The same promise made to Israel seems also to be made to the WHOLE world. To compare:

There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob = ALL Israel being saved
There shall come forth out of Sion he who is [the savior of the world], and he [takes away the sin of the world] = ALL the world being saved

"Just changing the subject, I've been thinking about 'free will' and our being responsible for our actions.  It seems scientists are discovering that our behaviour and 'choices' are determined to a good extent (or possibly completely determined).  If that is so, why all the 'wasted lives' throughout the centuries?

I have a good answer for this, but you are welcome to disagree with it!  happygrin

CREATION is about GOD... GOD is not about "CREATION"... What I am saying is that IT is NOT "ABOUT us" -- that is selfishness... it IS ...ABOUT HIM!"

What you say makes God look selfish . I would like to think that He is not .
He created us so that WE could live ,gain and be happy ,not because we should lick His a**S
It was about creation from the beginning .
How can you say that it was about Him when He has all He needs. What do we bring in forth to Him that He should even need to create us for Himself ?
He created us ,because He is good and ,because WE should be alive and be gods ,and beautifull beings .

This is not what the Bible is saying ,but what my soul is saying .

I will not use the Bible to prove ,or need to  know what is truly good eny longer .

In this world we are not free in the flesh . That is how it is .
This is why when we make a mistake we suffer for it in the flesh,but our Spirit is free and good no matter where we are .Because of it we reach for the better.
Freedom means that you can make a choice and not be killed ,tortured ,or stopped ,because of it .
Our dreams and choices are important and not bad ,just that some cant be achieved here and be truly good ,because this fleshy world has some limitations of its nature .

Achieving heaven is stupid .Its in us .

Stop being religious please .Stop being afraid and stop trying to save yourself .Look to your soul and know it better . Love helps too .

Quote from: Cat on September 06, 2009, 09:50:48 PM
Thanks Zeek.  Some good points to ponder......... :thumbsup:

I agree  :thumbsup:

Quote from: V.I.D. on September 07, 2009, 03:39:47 PM

He created us so that WE could live ,gain and be happy ,not because we should lick His a**S
It was about creation from the beginning .
How can you say that it was about Him when He has all He needs. What do we bring in forth to Him that He should even need to create us for Himself ?
He created us ,because He is good and ,because WE should be alive and be gods ,and beautifull beings.

Hi! VID

That's a very intriguing comment you have made here.
There are four basic questions which every man should strive to answer for himself:
1. Does God exist?
2. Who is God and what is He like?
3. What is man?
4. What is the ultimate intention/purpose of God for man?

Your comments evidently deal with #4. David posed a similar question: "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or a son of man that thou carest for him?", (Hebrews 2:6-8).

So, let's try an' give it something of an answer, shall we?

The whole of creation expresses this single thought: God wanted to give from Himself.

Scripture does not say in vain, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which He has made to dwell in us', (James 4:5). In His thoughts He prepared the greatest work possible. It is a perfect work and a grand godly creation. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny.

God wasn't thinking of a second God; rather, He thought of a worthy partner that would fit Him perfectly and harmoniously.

Since the beginning, God had us envisioned. God desired a partner to whom He could give Himself completely in love and in whom He could rejoice until eternity. This partner would be able to return His love and have an enormous amount of possibilities. This partner would be able to be an active participant with all of God's plans.

God pictured Himself a being that would fulfill all His desires; a being created after His image and likeness. We could describe it as "complementary" to God; completely belonging to one another in being and works. God wanted to acquire His partner. If He would have created it ready-made, there wouldn't have been anything to "acquire". Through the growth and development of talents that were created by God, man could enter into a close relationship with God and evolve into a mature independent being. This independent being could volunteer to follow after God's intentions and needs with all that is in him through free will and love. God worked this out in His infinite wisdom.

God conceived in His heart and mind a being with unimaginable, never ending possibilities; a being with a heart that could love Him, that could develop in many respects and both in quality and quantity. He desired a being that would manifest itself in infinite variations and in many personalities so God would be able to manifest Himself completely in him; a being in whom God could be "all in all", (1Cor 15:28).

This sum total of personalities would live together as one; each individually and collectively forming a unity in a love relationship with God. Such was the splendid motivation and substance of God and to which everything visible and invisible evolved. It would all come forth from Him to be created by Him and exist for the glory of His blessedness.

God knew what exactly He started when He began creating the heaven and the earth. This would be the setting, in which God would fulfill His plan with man, mankind. It is for this very purpose that God created the heaven and the earth: to acquire a partner and co-worker. From that very moment until now, God still hasn't changed and neither will He ever change.

All of God's plans and purposes are based on God's longing for man. God was thinking of you and me!

The partner, of whom God was thinking, would be on His level. A partner able to live in an atmosphere of pure love and who would, from out of their free will, dedicate all their created abilities and talents to a relationship in complete dependence on God.

It was man who would be created as 'God's son'; born from God, and to God, and would grow and develop into a mature adult son. Man, with his (by God) created potential would mature into a mankind who, as God's wife, would live with Him until eternity. Our God continues to work firmly on a complete realization of all that was with Him in the beginning. In you and me at this very moment, God sees that potential candidate, -that unique being-, which is destined to mature and develop and to be revealed as the bride of God and in whom God is all things in all.

God desires of us a relationship that is based on love and not on service. He will never force us into a relationship with himself; rather, He waits patiently for us to come to Him. In the meantime he presents himself desirably to us. He shows us His love, His goodness, His compassion and all His other attributes in their fullness. If we were created to be will-less slaves there would be no hope for us nor any incentive to live. We would always be under a pressure to perform our 'duties' for God and unable to enjoy life as it can and should be enjoyed.

For this reason God waits for us to make a free will decision to come into a true and lasting love relationship with him; a relationship from the heart. When we build our relationship with him and share our innermost feelings and desires with him, He is able share His life in us. Therefore it says, "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart" (Psalms 37:4). "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you", (James 4:8).

There is no freedom in what you say .


If i dont wanna be with someone ,but he makes everything in such a way that in the end i would still CHOSE him ,then this someone has controled me and i was not free . If i say to God ..Leave  me and He doesnt leave me ALONE and doesnt stop making me suffer ,then He doesnt want to leave me and is not letting me have my choice .

Your point is a mix between UR's no freedome doctrine and O.Christianity's freedome doctrine .

In the desire to be free ,you want freedome ,but in the desire to see mankind saved you say that all will choose God in the end and mix things together .

BTW : I never said that i thought that people should be like God . I said that i thought that they should be gods and that i had the idea that God didnt desire us to be bound by Him ,but to be free happy and flourishing creatures ,and that i believe ,that our spirits are such creatures !

There is just something so wrong with UR and Orthodox Christianity .

In UR you are nothing more than a clay pot that some god is molding the way He likes.This is not good ,because not only you are not free ,but it also makes you think of your self as something low and uncabable . It ruins the belief in your own capabilities as a person in life and makes you unhapy deeply .
In OC the views about freedome differ from person to person ,but many people are sent to a life of misery and pain in a place called hell .

I hate ALL religions ,because they make me feel either a slave either unhapy for many reasons .
I wish i could think of something better than them .

Nothing here is too close to truth . I feel it in my soul ,but i dont know why cant i make a better thought than all of those people . Its just that misery making me think stupid stuff many times and its hard to make something new and better than the old .Boy you have no idea how i hate those things .

Quote from: Cat on September 04, 2009, 10:11:40 PM
Hi Doc,  good to chat to you again.  I don't know if I follow your thoughts clearly on this.  I'm wondering if this 'quality' definition of 'aionios' is misleading and proveable?  If we take 'olam', I don't recall it being used to denote 'quality' of a situation.  The examples I've looked at, all seem to relate to 'duration' ie a length of time that is unmeasurable to a human perspective.  Now if the life that Jesus talks of is 'aionios', we straightaway think of everlasting life, or life that stretches on and on out of sight because we know that 'olam' means this.  The same applies to the punishment (I'm not for a minute saying this is conscious punishment).  Are there scriputures in the OT where 'olam' is being used, that suggest 'quality' rather than 'duration'?  If so, then this would lend support to 'aionios' being able to have 'both' meanings.  If not, then maybe 'aionios' is just a 'duration of unkown time' word.   As we assume the 'life' we receive goes on and on, it follows we assume the punishment (cutting off from life) goes on and on.

Hi Cat. I think you're right, that Olam has the sense of time (even if it is unknowable), as does its Greek equivalent, aion. Aionios is contextually (in scripture)  in places applied to things that have a quality to them "independently" of any quantity (time) to them, unless we force it into the text. My point was that aionios can be used of indefinite, but ending time OR can be used to describe a quality of life, or both. Saying something is aionios doesn't necessarily imply a time statement, though. That was my point there.

Hi Doc, thanks for clarifying.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the equivalent of 'olam': 'aionios', rather than 'aion'.  We know that 'aion' can mean a period of time, ie a finite period of time, so that word isn't the problem.  I'm having major problems with 'aionios'.   If we put aside for a minute, it's relationship to 'aion' and look at how it's used in the Greek Septuagint to replace the time word 'olam', then, doesn't this usuage 'prove', what 'aionios' means?  I think we've established that 'olam' is a mystery time word, but it seems to always denote an unknowable length of time.  I can't recall seeing 'olam' used to denote a quality of something.  I may be wrong and please correct me if I am.  So, when you (and others) say that 'aionios' is used to denote 'quality' of something as well as 'time', then what proof do you have for that?  If I read the famous scriputure: Matt 25:46, how can I be sure Jesus isn't just speaking of 'mystery time'?  Jerome used a 'time' word in the Latin translation.  I see no reason why we should read more meaning into this word than we have for 'olam'.  Now, if this is the case, then the comparison of the 'aionios life' and the 'aionios punishment' do seem to point towards a 'time' understanding, and just as we know the 'life' is going to be without end (other scriptures else where tell us this of course), it follows the punishment will be of similar duration.  I hope you can see where I'm coming from. :dontknow:

Quote from: V.I.D. on September 08, 2009, 09:11:45 PM
There is no freedom in what you say .


If i dont wanna be with someone ,but he makes everything in such a way that in the end i would still CHOSE him ,then this someone has controled me and i was not free . If i say to God ..Leave  me and He doesnt leave me ALONE and doesnt stop making me suffer ,then He doesnt want to leave me and is not letting me have my choice .

Your point is a mix between UR's no freedome doctrine and O.Christianity's freedome doctrine .

In the desire to be free ,you want freedome ,but in the desire to see mankind saved you say that all will choose God in the end and mix things together .

BTW : I never said that i thought that people should be like God . I said that i thought that they should be gods and that i had the idea that God didnt desire us to be bound by Him ,but to be free happy and flourishing creatures ,and that i believe ,that our spirits are such creatures !

There is just something so wrong with UR and Orthodox Christianity .

In UR you are nothing more than a clay pot that some god is molding the way He likes.This is not good ,because not only you are not free ,but it also makes you think of your self as something low and uncabable . It ruins the belief in your own capabilities as a person in life and makes you unhapy deeply .
In OC the views about freedome differ from person to person ,but many people are sent to a life of misery and pain in a place called hell .

I hate ALL religions ,because they make me feel either a slave either unhapy for many reasons .
I wish i could think of something better than them .

Nothing here is too close to truth . I feel it in my soul ,but i dont know why cant i make a better thought than all of those people . Its just that misery making me think stupid stuff many times and its hard to make something new and better than the old .Boy you have no idea how i hate those things .

There are only two options here V.I.D.  Either you're "for" Christ, or you're "against" him.  To have the nature of Christ manifesting in you, is to have his humility and servanthood.  He didn't come to be served, he came to serve.  Yet much of your comments are about you "being" served.

UR, for me, isn't about me conforming to yet another set of regulations and rules.  It's realizing that whether people follow them now or not, it has no bearing on their final destination.  So, looking at it from "that" standpoint, you're safe in doing what ever your mind desires to do.  You can believe in Christ, or you can reject Christ, because in the end, it's not your faitfulness that matters.  It's God's faithfulness in his redemption for all. 

To be frank with you, I don't thoroughly read every post on a thread.  I read with ears more than I do with eyes.  I listen for sounds apart from the noise.  There is much religious noise in all of us from time to time.  Even me.  Sometimes it takes me a couple paragraphs before I feel life and light flowing out of me.  Sometimes it's right there, and some times, I want to write, I pull up the little white box and I watch the little curser flashing . . as if saying "I don't have all day here, you gonna write something or not?"  And many times, I just back out and say nothing. 

I'm sharing all of that to say that to let you know that we're all on the same road.  We all have our frustrations.  But the road gets a lot rougher when we choose to think that we can live however we choose without experiencing the consequences of those decisions.  As I said, my choices have no affect on my final destination, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those same choices "do" affect the level of peace in me when the storms hit.  They affect my ability to reproduce Christ's nature into others.  And they greatly affect my ability to "see" his truth in every experience in my life, as well as every Word written and spoken.

So, yeah, I "can" live however I want.  But if I choose to live apart from the Father who called me into being, I'm choosing a heck of a lot tougher road, than I am if I acknowledge the fact that I was called forth in love so that I could manifest love to others.  It really isn't about me.  No one is trying to pin any religious crap on you when they say that.  It's simply the Word coming out of us when we say stuff like that.  Jesus said, apart from him, we are nothing.  He's not condemning or rebuking.

It'd be no different than if I went to my 4-year old sons and told them that without me unlocking the car, they can't get in.  It's not a condemnation, it's just letting them know that they'll spare scraping their knuckles or bending their fingernails over backwards, trying to open a locked door.

If we don't acknowledge Christ, the door to that unspeakable joy simply remains locked.  Spiritual vision remains veiled, and freedom, true freedom remains hidden.  No condemnation, just friendly advice.

Quote from: Cat on September 08, 2009, 11:42:16 PM
Hi Doc, thanks for clarifying.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the equivalent of 'olam': 'aionios', rather than 'aion'.  We know that 'aion' can mean a period of time, ie a finite period of time, so that word isn't the problem.  I'm having major problems with 'aionios'.   If we put aside for a minute, it's relationship to 'aion' and look at how it's used in the Greek Septuagint to replace the time word 'olam', then, doesn't this usuage 'prove', what 'aionios' means?  I think we've established that 'olam' is a mystery time word, but it seems to always denote an unknowable length of time.  I can't recall seeing 'olam' used to denote a quality of something.  I may be wrong and please correct me if I am.  So, when you (and others) say that 'aionios' is used to denote 'quality' of something as well as 'time', then what proof do you have for that?  If I read the famous scriputure: Matt 25:46, how can I be sure Jesus isn't just speaking of 'mystery time'?  Jerome used a 'time' word in the Latin translation.  I see no reason why we should read more meaning into this word than we have for 'olam'.  Now, if this is the case, then the comparison of the 'aionios life' and the 'aionios punishment' do seem to point towards a 'time' understanding, and just as we know the 'life' is going to be without end (other scriptures else where tell us this of course), it follows the punishment will be of similar duration.  I hope you can see where I'm coming from. :dontknow:

Hi Cat:

My understanding is that aion (singular) is the equivalent of olam, an indeterminate period of time that has a beginning and an ending. Other forms, such as aionion and aionios mean applying to an aion or aions period of time.

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it?

I'm not saying aionios can't be used in the way you suggest, I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily have to always denote time. Make sense?

QuoteThere are only two options here V.I.D.  Either you're "for" Christ, or you're "against" him.  To have the nature of Christ manifesting in you, is to have his humility and servanthood.  He didn't come to be served, he came to serve.  Yet much of your comments are about you "being" served.

UR, for me, isn't about me conforming to yet another set of regulations and rules.  It's realizing that whether people follow them now or not, it has no bearing on their final destination.  So, looking at it from "that" standpoint, you're safe in doing what ever your mind desires to do.  You can believe in Christ, or you can reject Christ, because in the end, it's not your faitfulness that matters.  It's God's faithfulness in his redemption for all.

To be frank with you, I don't thoroughly read every post on a thread.  I read with ears more than I do with eyes.  I listen for sounds apart from the noise.  There is much religious noise in all of us from time to time.  Even me.  Sometimes it takes me a couple paragraphs before I feel life and light flowing out of me.  Sometimes it's right there, and some times, I want to write, I pull up the little white box and I watch the little curser flashing . . as if saying "I don't have all day here, you gonna write something or not?"  And many times, I just back out and say nothing.

I'm sharing all of that to say that to let you know that we're all on the same road.  We all have our frustrations.  But the road gets a lot rougher when we choose to think that we can live however we choose without experiencing the consequences of those decisions.  As I said, my choices have no affect on my final destination, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those same choices "do" affect the level of peace in me when the storms hit.  They affect my ability to reproduce Christ's nature into others.  And they greatly affect my ability to "see" his truth in every experience in my life, as well as every Word written and spoken.

So, yeah, I "can" live however I want.  But if I choose to live apart from the Father who called me into being, I'm choosing a heck of a lot tougher road, than I am if I acknowledge the fact that I was called forth in love so that I could manifest love to others.  It really isn't about me.  No one is trying to pin any religious crap on you when they say that.  It's simply the Word coming out of us when we say stuff like that.  Jesus said, apart from him, we are nothing.  He's not condemning or rebuking.

It'd be no different than if I went to my 4-year old sons and told them that without me unlocking the car, they can't get in.  It's not a condemnation, it's just letting them know that they'll spare scraping their knuckles or bending their fingernails over backwards, trying to open a locked door.

If we don't acknowledge Christ, the door to that unspeakable joy simply remains locked.  Spiritual vision remains veiled, and freedom, true freedom remains hidden.  No condemnation, just friendly advice.

When you give me only two options in life ,you condemn me ,because life is not limited by options .


I know just love . Its not ,christ ,buddha ,or enything else.Its just love and i want it for everybody .Yes i am an antichrist thank GOD !I dont name good and love by eny figures ,or beliefs .
And i love all those antichrists there that strugle in that harsh world ,most not knowing what they are doing ,but all wanting deeply the same thing -love .

I dont want Christs ,buddhas ,or others to make it look that without them i am nothing ,or I loose something .
Nice trying to make it look as if i want to be served ,but i allways wanted to achieve my things in life with my own two hands and also wanted to be loved .I never for once did ask from others to lick my b**t and that is the truth . I studied alone ,tried to learn to do things and achieve since i was a small child and that is why i now know things that my other friends do not even understand .

Desiring the imposible and believing that they can achieve ,is the way people can do good for themselves and others and not by staying humbly and reading the Bible all day .Love is the key in every relationship do .

My rebutal to teligion and to universalism just shows what dangers do they keep in their doctrinal thought and nothing more . I do not say do i love God or hate Christ ,or enything .Sometimes i am very mad at God for all the evil in this world and i regect Him ,but sometimes i am so happy because of the beauty and good.

The dualistic thought of * you either accept Christ ,or you are against Him * makes me feel sick .
I have a soul and it wants and gives the same thing ,because GOD made me to be this way Now what and who He is maybe i will be the only one to say that He might be too much of a religion to be known by my mind because ,He MIGHT be bigger than it .

I dont dislike the people that were not humble like your Christs . Because of them now Bulgaria is still here . We were 500 years under Otoman rule and we still have our people and culture as one of the most unique in the world and we are totaly different from Turkey. We gave the Russians their alphabet and ours aswell and what would have happened if we were humble ?Were we gonna free ourselves ?
Nope ,not gonna be humble like it or not !

Sorry for us going a bit off topic . I will not post eny more in this thread.

There seems to be a theme to your posts bro.  You have an indoctrination in you, even though you see yourself to be "anti" Christ.  I want to look at the bigger picture and see that there's more to life than the tiny little span of time I'm on this earth.  I find it fascinating that you've hung around here for over a year and a half, but yet you choose to believe in no God at all?  Why are you here?  I'm not rebuking you, I'm just curious.

You apparently have some level of belief in God, you'd stated that you get mad at God for all the evil that is on the earth, but you're also happy with God for all the beauty.  Those are not the words of someone who doesn't beleive in God.  But then, maybe it's not God you have the problem with, but it's Jesus. 

Look, God "is" love.  Man is flesh.  Man has an image of love, but love has so many dimensions to it that man just can't fathom but only what's on the surface.  So God goes inward and simply starts "revealing" to man what love is.  And that causes us to make choices.  Either to accept or reject the unveiling.  And we have that ability. 

I find it interesting that even though I tried to emphasize that Jesus wasn't rebuking people when he said without him we are nothing, but yet that's the one thing you chose to identify with.  If you have this love you wish so badly for others to have also, then how is it there is still this negative response to a positive reality?

Do you really "want" your mind to be in control of all things around you?  Do you really think your mind can live forever, but never truly knowing what life and light is?  Believing in Jesus is not a conforming thing at all.  It's a liberating one.  His message was all about breaking from the bondage of our "self" be it through religious avenues or other areas we choose to identify with that causes us to become short-sighted in seeing his nature.  His yoke is easy, his burden is light.  He calls us to cast EVERYTHING upon him because he's taken care of the price required for us to have any kind of life at all.

God isn't "allowing" this evil to happen around us at all.  The power to control evil, he gave to US.  And "this" is what we've done with it.  He didn't do it . . .we did.  People that also rejected him and chose to live life as they pleased.  Not ever wanting to have discipline or boundaries.  I hate religion, I always have and I always will.  Religion is the result of blind men trying to make a path to God.

I for one, know how my mind works.  I know that I get big-headed when I think I've got everything figured out.  I know I'm no fun to be around when I get that way.  I know that I forget more than I learn.  I know that I misunderstand more than I think I have figured out.  I know my love is conditional.  I'll love you so long as you and I are compatible.  But if you smell, both outwardly and inwardly, it won't be long, I'll be looking elsewhere for someone else to pet my ego.  I know how I work and Jesus was right, I'm a nobody.  And if you give me enough rope, I'll hang myself on even that much.

So for me, I'm just flippin ecstatic that God is blind to all of that because I've chosen to say yes to his Son.  He was blind to all of that anyway because of what his Son has already done.  The Jesus you choose to reject . . .doesn't matter one bit to God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  That may make you snicker cuz you've heard many a preachers tell you the same thing.  But I'm not looking to slip my hand in your wallet.  I'm saying it because I've experienced that love.  I'm no more perfect than I was before.  But that's the beauty of it.  He's not looking for perfection, just reception.  And it changed my life.

I dont see myself as an antichrist ,i just said it figuratively.

QuoteYou have an indoctrination in you, even though you see yourself to be "anti" Christ.

know just love . Its not ,christ ,buddha ,or enything else.
Get it ?
Many people ,because of not believing in religion are named antichrists ,but they strugle and want the same as everyone.

"Man is flesh."
Something in me never liked that idea . I allways thought that we are more than this body and have something precious within us .I never saw myself and others as flesh ,but as living ,feeling beings that do have souls.

Quotenegative response to a positive reality?

Reality didnt seem to me too positive .Even if i have love ,people still suffer . Love may be in me ,but all that pain ,evil and so many bad things ,just cant make you close eyes if you do have love .Real love .Even for a moment ,even for this life ,I dont want enybody to be tortured .

Quotebecause he's taken care of the price required for us to have ANY KIND OF LIFE AT ALL.

I have never seen people as dead ,or wanted to see them this way ,so that i may think some other being needs to give me life .

QuoteThe power to control evil, he gave to US.

Its not US only. We are not all powerfull here . We have power ,but IN THE flesh its somewhat limited ,by many things ,but i do try to believe that we can ,because if i dont there will be no progress.

QuoteI for one, know how my mind works.  I know that I get big-headed when I think I've got everything figured out.  I know I'm no fun to be around when I get that way.  I know that I forget more than I learn.  I know that I misunderstand more than I think I have figured out.  I know my love is conditional.  I'll love you so long as you and I are compatible.  But if you smell, both outwardly and inwardly, it won't be long, I'll be looking elsewhere for someone else to pet my ego.  I know how I work and Jesus was right, I'm a nobody.  And if you give me enough rope, I'll hang myself on even that much.

So for me, I'm just flippin ecstatic that God is blind to all of that because I've chosen to say yes to his Son.  He was blind to all of that anyway because of what his Son has already done.  The Jesus you choose to reject . . .doesn't matter one bit to God.  He loves you just as much as he loves me.  That may make you snicker cuz you've heard many a preachers tell you the same thing.  But I'm not looking to slip my hand in your wallet.  I'm saying it because I've experienced that love.  I'm no more perfect than I was before.  But that's the beauty of it.  He's not looking for perfection, just reception.  And it changed my life.

If He loves me ,he would not ask me to chose Him in order to be good to me and forgive me for my mistakes.I apreciate when someone forgives without me asking him.This atleast in my eyes makes him be a higher person .
thought i understand what you are saying .

I like you do . You are open ,ask alot and think . That is good.
The more you ask the more you want to see.

About the Hebrew word having the idea of quality, I happened to address that very thing on another message board earlier today, so will repost it here. What I attempt to show is that the word, while it can have the idea of a period of time, when prefixed by the lamed, meaning "to", it is primarily describing the state of being, or quality, that characterizes anything that is hazy, and not clearly known to the natural eye.

What would it have meant to them?

The Hebrew word is OULaM. The picture is of the eyes being led out over the water, to the horizon. What was on the other side was unknown, and what was on the horizon was hazy, unclear to the naked eye.

In speaking of something as LaOULaM, (to the horizon) such as is used most times in the OT, whether it was 3 days and nights, as in Jonah's case, or thousands of years, as in the various aspects of the Law Covenant, the length of time is not the focus, but the quality of the time. It is unknown, indefinate, hazy to the naked eye.

When used as an adjective, as in the case of ChII OULaM, as I understand it, the focus again is not on the length of life, but on the quality of it, namely again, that which pertains to OULaM; unknown, hazy to the naked eye.

The life we have in Christ is indeed that. When one is born again you cannot tell that there is another life that is ours now, that of our Lord. Physically we look like anyone else. But hidden and spiritual indeed is the life that is ours, and that life is characteristic of the one who is life himself, Jesus. For he too is no more to be seen by the world, nor by us, yet we do see him, although with different eyes.

Quote from: Doc on September 09, 2009, 01:25:02 AM

Hi Cat:

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?  No!  The 'quality' element is already a 'given' in that 'eternal' life is all the things that Jesus conveyed (being with Him in His Father's house etc).   If we know Jesus and God then it follows we love them and will be with Them 'forever' (or stretching on over the horizon and outside of our view and comprehension), having been granted 'aionios life'.   If we don't know Jesus and God, then we receive the punishment, not the life

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it? Yes and no. It is a 'time' statement and the fact that the life is 'without end' comforts the believers.  Actually it is a quality statement too ie the life is going to stretch on past the horizon and out of human view.  I'm struggling to get over to you what I mean.  I'll ponder what you've said some more. 

Quote from: gregoryfl on September 09, 2009, 04:59:06 AM
About the Hebrew word having the idea of quality, I happened to address that very thing on another message board earlier today, so will repost it here. What I attempt to show is that the word, while it can have the idea of a period of time, when prefixed by the lamed, meaning "to", it is primarily describing the state of being, or quality, that characterizes anything that is hazy, and not clearly known to the natural eye.

What would it have meant to them?

The Hebrew word is OULaM. The picture is of the eyes being led out over the water, to the horizon. What was on the other side was unknown, and what was on the horizon was hazy, unclear to the naked eye.

In speaking of something as LaOULaM, (to the horizon) such as is used most times in the OT, whether it was 3 days and nights, as in Jonah's case, or thousands of years, as in the various aspects of the Law Covenant, the length of time is not the focus, but the quality of the time. It is unknown, indefinate, hazy to the naked eye. Surely, it's the 'time' factor that is 'unknown' and 'hazy'.  Jonah didn't know how long he would be in the fish. I'm pretty sure he had an idea what life in the fish would be like.  I'm really struggling to see how the word 'owlam' is meaning more than the 'mystery time'.  Mountains that are 'eternal' (owlam) are first and foremost enduring.  We can surmise why they are enduring but the word 'owlam' does not explain that.  Surely it's just a time word.

When used as an adjective, as in the case of ChII OULaM, as I understand it, the focus again is not on the length of life, but on the quality of it, namely again, that which pertains to OULaM; unknown, hazy to the naked eye.

The life we have in Christ is indeed that. When one is born again you cannot tell that there is another life that is ours now, that of our Lord. Physically we look like anyone else. But hidden and spiritual indeed is the life that is ours, and that life is characteristic of the one who is life himself, Jesus. For he too is no more to be seen by the world, nor by us, yet we do see him, although with different eyes.

Quote from: Cat on September 09, 2009, 10:03:28 PM

Quote from: Doc on September 09, 2009, 01:25:02 AM

Hi Cat:

The proof that you requested...

John 17:3 "Now this is [aionios] (eternal) life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This was a scripture that legoman posted earlier in the thread that I had in mind.

Is it clear to you that this meaning of aionios is a quality statement, and not necessarily a time statement? If I were to ask the question, "what does this verse say aionios life is?" You wouldn't say, "a period of time", you'd say "knowing God and Jesus Christ". Right?  No!  The 'quality' element is already a 'given' in that 'eternal' life is all the things that Jesus conveyed (being with Him in His Father's house etc).   If we know Jesus and God then it follows we love them and will be with Them 'forever' (or stretching on over the horizon and outside of our view and comprehension), having been granted 'aionios life'.   If we don't know Jesus and God, then we receive the punishment, not the life

It's kind of like the modern English phrase, "Ah, this is the life!" That's not referring to the duration of life, it's referring to the current quality of that life, regardless of how long that quality actually lasts. That is the sense in which aionios is used in John 17:3. Can you also see how reading a "time" statement into that verse is actually just that; reading it into it? Yes and no. It is a 'time' statement and the fact that the life is 'without end' comforts the believers.  Actually it is a quality statement too ie the life is going to stretch on past the horizon and out of human view.  I'm struggling to get over to you what I mean.  I'll ponder what you've said some more. 

Cat, I think you're still stuck on the meaning of eternal in the modern sense vs. olam/ aion/ aionion/ aionios in the Hebrew and Greek. The meaning of the modern English 'eternal' is literally forever, without end (and usually without beginning as well). Olam and aion did not include this concept. We know this because of how they're actually used in scripture. The Greek in particular has completely different words that we translate as immortal and incorruptible, which actually convey the sense of unending. Length of time and quality are completely different concepts, and I think you're having trouble separating them, because of ideas we've had traditionally associated with "eternity". Perhaps it's simpler to keep the definitions of aionion and aionios on the time side of things, by simply stating it as pertaining to an aion or aions.

Hi Doc,  thank you for your patience in this matter. I've found some old correspondence regarding this.  So I'll re-read it and see if it sinks in this time.  I'll come back to you on this.