I have three questions.

[jabcat]

Mol, if "assuming" is taken to mean "to take as granted or true", yes, that's what I believe Paul was describing - THE literal, physical return of Jesus into our presence.  Now, I could be wrong, I have been millions of other times, so we'll see.  Time tells.

As far as the OT saints that didn't die, I would think they had taken on immortality.  I'm not expert on this, but they weren't just back here on earth then, going about their everyday lives were they?  Which brings me to the NT folks being raised from the dead.  They apparently were back here on earth, going about their everyday lives (though I would think still very changed, energized, enlightened) weren't they?  So I'd think they were still mortal, and they still (physically) died at some point  :dontknow:.  I'm not swearing to it, just thinking it.  IF all I just said is correct, that in itself doesn't totally disprove anything, because as far as I understand, without breaking His own Word or will, God can do anything He chooses to do.  I do look to a belief to be in line ("proveable") with scripture though (at least, not against it).

I can't prove it, but I guess Paul's body stopped breathing when they cut off his head.  AKA, dying.  He also said "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." II Corinthians 5:8.

[Seth]

You don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!

Actually, you do get tomato seeds along with the tomato.  That's why--

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Our God runs a very orderly universe.

Plant a tomato seed, get a tomato.

And, He's a farmer.  :icon_king:

LOL I KNEW you were going to say that.

The point though is that you don't plant a tomato and expect to get a hybrid tomato/seed thing. Seeds become plants. When I plant a tomato seed, I don't expect for a GIANT tomato seed to come out of earth. I expect for a green plant with leaves and tomatoes to come out of the earth. A tomato plant may BEAR seeds, but they are not THE seeds unto themselves.

You see the fruit born of the life given to the dead seed is the PLANT.

That is why Paul does not say "it is sown a natural body and raised a natural/spiritual body."

rather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."

There is no MIXTURE of natural and spiritual. The "likeness" of Christ's resurrection shows that the natural mind is being REPLACED by the Spiritual mind, not mixed with it. To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. No mixture.

What is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit and the flesh does NOT inherit the kingdom. No mixture: rather, carnal REPLACED with spiritual.

[Beloved Servant]

DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
IT HAS NO PURPOSE IN LIFE!
IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DESTROY!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH DEATH??????????????????????????????

Amen, when Universalists cherish death as much as life, that's when I jump off the bandwaggon and say I'm not a Universalist 'cause my Bible calls it the enemy of my soul, of my God, the enemy of all I am, of all I've loved or ever will love, et. al.  Death is the enemy that all Christians are called to exercise their faith in cultivating the Written Word with and abolish alongside their Champion, Head, and Lord.  Death isn't cute and it's not unchallengeable because of what Christ has accomplished in the New Birth.  I didn't even know this thread was going on when I posted to facebook last night:

"Death is optional, irresponsible, unnecessary, and completely voluntary."

Again, another PROFOUND and beautiful post, thank you Brother Martin.

(note: my bold, green)

[Molly]

rather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."

Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit.

The seed dies, so that something inside of it can produce abundant life.

You are saying that the tomato plant is different from the seed; but, it's not different.

It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.

[Beloved Servant]

It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.

Wonderful, Molly!  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

rather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."

Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit.

The seed dies, so that something inside of it can produce abundant life.

You are saying that the tomato plant is different from the seed; but, it's not different.

It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.

There is no mixture of spiritual and earthy. To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. Death and life do not mix.

"Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit."

The carnal mind is replaced with a spiritual mind. The natural body is replaced with a spiritual body.

Do you see the parallel? What is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit. No mixture. That is a sound Biblical principle which you violate with each response contrary to it by saying that the earthy and the spiritual are to be a mixed hybrid.  :thumbdown:

[Beloved Servant]

1 Corinthians 15:53-55 (Amplified Bible)

    53 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature, and this mortal part of us, this nature that is capable of dying must put on immortality (freedom from death).

    54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up utterly vanquished forever in and unto victory.

    55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?

O death, where is your sting?
this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death



   

[sparrow]

Martin, Cardinal, Beloved and Molly...

Do you believe that your body will not die and fade back into the dust?

I'm not talking about your spirit/soul/mind etc.

I'm talking your physical body. Your bones, blood, cartilage, veins, muscular system, nervous system, etc.


Yes.
Or
No.

Please just YES. or NO.

No bible verses.
No commentary.  :winkgrin:

Just.... yes or no.

PHYSICAL body. Not the "you". Not your spirit...
Your skin, blood, bones, cartilage, veins, etc.



And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?

Again. PLEASE do not quote bible verses or start talking about spiritual things.
I am only talking about your veins, blood, cartilage, hair, bones, etc....


This has GOT to be clarified.

Thank you.  :happy3:

[Taffy]

Martin, Cardinal, Beloved and Molly...

Do you believe that your body will not die and fade back into the dust?

I'm not talking about your spirit/soul/mind etc.

I'm talking your physical body. Your bones, blood, cartilage, veins, muscular system, nervous system, etc.


Yes.
Or
No.

Please just YES. or NO.

No bible verses.
No commentary.  :winkgrin:

Just.... yes or no.

PHYSICAL body. Not the "you". Not your spirit...
Your skin, blood, bones, cartilage, veins, etc.



And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?

Again. PLEASE do not quote bible verses or start talking about spiritual things.
I am only talking about your veins, blood, cartilage, hair, bones, etc....


This has GOT to be clarified.

Thank you.  :happy3:

For mine Sparrow...

NO :icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

[Taffy]

YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

so  thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower:  just checkin :icon_king:

[Beloved Servant]

YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

so  thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower:  just checkin :icon_king:

THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!

[Taffy]

YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

so  thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower:  just checkin :icon_king:

THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!

Nice One Bud..just sought to Clarify :icon_jokercolor:   :icon_flower:

[sparrow]

THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!

Thank you for answering!

Now...

And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?

[Taffy]

THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!

Thank you for answering!

Now...

And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?

I answered too  :sigh:

[sparrow]

THANK YOU for answering TAFFY!!!!
LOVE YA!!!  :icon_flower:

:HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:


Lol... :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

Rejoice Taffy! The Lord has his hand on us as we speak! His rest is our reward!

[Taffy]

THANK YOU for answering TAFFY!!!!
LOVE YA!!!  :icon_flower:

:HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:


Lol... :laughing7:

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

love you too girl.... :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:

but- the flesh [ our bodies]is the forerunner , the shadow , not the reality, for mine the scriptures dont gel by stating Flesh to spirit back to Flesh again..love to read it if someone can show where... :dontknow:

I knew a minister once who prayed  that we NOT be taken and raptured Until he was married, of course his motive wasnt selfish ..lol .....I often wonder where and what he thinks now :icon_flower:

Blessings Siss :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Rejoice Taffy! The Lord has his hand on us as we speak! His rest is our reward!

YES    :icon_flower:   definately so BL

Thesedays BL..Scriptual Arm wrestling isnt  [praise HIM] where Im at.... :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

Nor I, Taffy, I'm not cut out to cater to the soul.

[Molly]

What have we learned most recently in our human history?  That we can take a piece of our body so small it cannot be seen with the human eye, and recreate the whole body from it.

So what if it turns to dust?  I could say that much, first of all, and it's no surprise to anyone who believes in the resurrection of the [physically] dead--how God could take the tiniest atom of you and recreate the whole thing.  Man can do it, too, now.

That would have been science fiction 50 years ago--how quickly we forget!

Now life itself is so mysterious.  No one really knows how it works.  They really don't.  They have some ideas...but that's all.

Modern medicine is taught like case history in law, and usually, what goes wrong falls into a few cases and is recognized.  But, if it is not, modern medicine can quickly fail.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


What does that spirit quicken?  Does it bring the seed to life?  No one has answered this for me, yet.  Because if it brings the seed to life, what can kill it?  And, if that seed becomes a quickening spirit, itself, isn't death swallowed up in victory?

A new babe quickens in his mother's womb--he comes to life--but, we are born from above--while still in this body of corruption.  Is that the end of it?  Because if we receive that quickening spirit in this life, what do you think that will do to the [physical] body?


On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

--Rev 22

[sparrow]

By the way, I'm not asking these questions in order to "debate".
I just want to know where people stand so that I can read their posts correctly.


So..with that said...
If anyone would like to answer the questions/follow up questions, that would be great!

peace.

[Molly]

Then the answer is Yes.

And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?

You become the second Adam--a quickening spirit.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't know how much plainer I could make it than what I've already shared, aside from what Beloved Servant or Martin said......... :dontknow:.........as the saying goes, I didn't stutter  :laughing7:........and again......

1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

And........

2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

In addition to what I said earlier today........has it dawned on anyone yet that Moses, who is the premiere type and shadow, so much so that it was said that God would raise up ANOTHER LIKE UNTO MOSES, and the descendants of Jacob, ESCAPED THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN?

Paul said above we already know that if this tabernacle were dissolved (ie. put off/die) that we ALREADY have a "house" eternal (which is CHRIST in you, the hope of glory, or a glorious body) in heaven, which would be sort of like Him being received into heaven until the time of the RESTITUTION of all things. Restitution means to be restored, and ties in with Jubilee, when every man's POSSESSION was RESTORED to him.

People, we are in a far better covenant than they had, and further we are joined to the Head as His body and He died SO WE DON'T HAVE TO. Think about the pattern here for a second.

In the outer court pattern, it is our spirit that is saved; in the inner court, it is the soul that gets saved, but in the Holy of Holies, it's the BODY that is redeemed. What did He tell them if they would not redeem the firstborn of an ass, which speaks of our stubborn carnal ass nature, of which our natural body is a part of? BREAK IT'S NECK.

When Eli the priest no longer attended to the Lord, no longer heard his voice, because he grew full of flesh and blind (my people perish without a vision), it said he feel backwards and BROKE HIS NECK. The neck speaks of submission to His Spirit, whose yoke is light/revelation.

Every revelation walked out, every thing laid on the altar, every sacrifice of praise, every good work done thru the Spirit of God, brings us one step closer to this redemption which is our RIGHT under the new covenant. He's not been doing cures and casting out devils for the last 2 days of Pentecost, just so we can have a "good looking corpse"! Blessings....

[sparrow]

People, we are in a far better covenant than they had, and further we are joined to the Head as His body and He died SO WE DON'T HAVE TO. Think about the pattern here for a second.

In the outer court pattern, it is our spirit that is saved; in the inner court, it is the soul that gets saved, but in the Holy of Holies, it's the BODY that is redeemed.

So... Those whose physical hearts have stopped beating and they have been buried in the ground.... ?? What of these people? What did they do that was not enough? Did they not have enough faith? or not have the right kind of faith? Is that what you are saying?
I really have no idea.

Or are you saying that that it doesn't MATTER that their physical bodies have been put in the ground, turned to dust, etc. Now THAT, I can understand. But I don't think you guys are saying that.