1) What is the difference between the coming of the Lord described in Revelation, on the white horse, and the coming of the Lord described by Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4 , the coming in the air, with the dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ, rising and meeting the Lord in the air.
2) Was Joseph the youngest son of Jacob?
3) I've been taught that at physical death we sleep and wait for the resurrection. So when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration, I don't understand , because I thought they were asleep(sheol) waiting to be raised up with Jesus after his resurrection? ("and many bodies of the saints which slept arose") After Jesus' resurrection.
hey fa squared -
No definite conclusions here, some thoughts and scripture to consider.
I wonder about #1 myself, and have no idea on #2.
Regarding #3; I saw Tony N make the interesting observation the other day that the appearance of Moses and Elija was a vision, otherwise, they would have beat Jesus to being the first risen/first-fruit.
There's been much discussion on soul sleep. Many reference Ecc. 9:5, "the dead know nothing", others state it's out of context and only has to do with the literal, present, physical realm :dontknow:. I read this scripture today and wanted to post it tonight. Thanks for the opportunity;
Psalm 6:5
For there is no mention of You in death;
In Sheol who will give You thanks? NASV
For there is not in death Thy memorial, In Sheol, who doth give thanks to Thee? YLT
God's blessing, James.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Joseph is the oldest son of the most beloved wife. His younger brother Benjamin is the youngest son. Does this answer your question? Not sure what you are asking...
22And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.
23And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:
24And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.
--Gen 30
"rising and meeting the Lord in the air."
I have no real answer but something that might be part of the answer.
The following is just a unfinished thought. Not my solid and fixed view. Neither want I to trigger a tribulation thread.
Perhaps it's about the (ancient) Jewish wedding rites.
The couple engaged. -> Jesus was on earth
The groom goes home -> Jesus back to heaven
The groom starts preparing the bridal room -> Jesus preparing the mansions in heaven.
The father of the groom has to approve is the room looks good enough. Usually takes 1-2 years -> 1000-2000 years.
We are told to be prepared. The virgins and the lamps parable. The bride usally saved money whole her life to buy "make-up" And also needed a lamp ready. Why? To do her make-up.
After the 1-2 years the the groom + friends goes to the bride -> Jesus plus angels.
The custom is doing this at a weird unexpected moment (suprise) usually during the night -> lamp oil.
When the groom is near the house of his bride he stops and blow the shofar/ramshorn -> revelation trumpet?
Then the friends of the groom go to the brides house and 'steal' her. -> comes as a thief in the night?
They carry the bride above their heads to the waiting groom -> not exactly but Jesus doesn't touch the ground.
Then the bride and groom have 7 days of :HeartThrob: in the locked bridal room. -> 7 years of tribulation?
After that the wedding supper begins.
So.... Bride=elect Rest=wedding guests
Only 95% of this post was off=topic so I see some improvement :laughing7:
lamps
Yep, you're improving WW :happygrin:.
Molly, YLT has the verse as "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets".
The CLV has "a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets)"
Interesting once again how different translations bring out different nuances; these 2 being literal versions indicate more of a "they say it's so" rather than a "they are now observing". That's what I see anyway.
I'm still undecided though, because I also wonder about the "great cloud of witnesses".
Quotethese 2 being very literal versions indicate more of a "they say it's so" rather than a "they are now observing".
"they say it's so"
That's what a witness is, Jab, you know, like a witness in court.
So we have Moses and Elijah flanking Jesus and testifying to us [bearing witness]--he's the Man.
"witnessed" [by the law and the prophets]
G3140
μαρτυρέω
martureō
mar-too-reh'-o
From G3144;
to be a witness, that is,
testify (literally or figuratively): - charge,
give [evidence], bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.
Yeah, I agree. But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were - not necessarily that they're still literally standing there saying that today. It's recorded. It's more than history, it's scripture. Or, they may be right here in this room. I don't know.
I really lean toward the former, but like so many things, I'm still decidin'. :bigGrin:
The piece of your definition jumps out at me; "literal or figuratively". I know that's a manmade definition, but still interesting nonetheless.
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
--Mat 17
"vision"
G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.
G3708
ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.
I've honestly pretty much always thought of a vision as being perhaps supernatural, yes, but not necessarily something "real", as in "this can be touched/literal flesh and blood". :dontknow:
I know we both believe all scripture reconciles, it's our understanding that falters. So if we took the scripture from Romans you quoted to mean the prophets are literally still standing around witnessing (observing) what's happening, do you have thoughts on how to reconcile that with the Psalm scripture I quoted about God not getting praise from Sheol/the grave?
And again, we have the "great cloud of witnesses". I need to really study that out.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
You're talking to a literalist, Jab, [me]. So yes I think it was real, and the witness was witnessed to by the disciples. When I first saw this [the transfiguration], it knocked me out of my socks. I thought, whoa, nobody ever told me about this. We have a very mystical religion, even for a literalist.
You see Paul says it is manifested now--the Son, the righteousness of God without the law--is now manifested--revealed. That means it was always there, Jab, just not seen by the man in the street. But, Moses and Elijah were never the man in the street.
If one believes in Jesus, he will never die--do you believe this?
Did Moses and Elijah?
My Father is the God of the living.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
--Mat 22
Quote from: jabcat on September 01, 2009, 10:25:05 AM
Yep, you're improving WW :happygrin:.
Rather long story to explain what 'meeting in the air' mean.
Lots of pieces of the puzzle missing but I can't shake the feeling the mentioned revelation verse is about the wedding :dontknow:
I know Jesus said that, and I believe it, but now what exactly does it mean? Because scripture elsewhere states it is appointed unto man once to die.
I believe it means (at least) that my spirit won't die. It returns to God Who gave it. I won't be spiritually lost or dead. It's a promise, but for me to literally live again, doesn't it involve a resurrection, mortality putting on immortality? Jesus said it so it's true. But what are the spiritual layers? IMO, the questions are "when" and "what's the process", not "if".
This is an interesting excerpt from E.W. Bullinger's book, "A Great Cloud of Witnesses";
"God said to our first parents "ye shall surely die" (Gen. ii.16). The old serpent said "ye shall not surely die " (Gen. iii.4). And all his "ministers" today with one voice repeat that lie, and teach it as God's truth. Their creed is expressed for them in the words --
"There is no death,
What seems so is transition."
Whom do we believe?
The Prophetic word declares concerning the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" that they "lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. xx.5). Man declares they are alive all the time without any resurrection. Whom do we believe?" - E.W. Bullinger
Once again, another simple topic :laughing7:.
I'll think some more on the wedding, WW.
Edit* I've looked at it some more. Will you expound upon it?
QuoteWhom do we believe?"
Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? --John 11
I said I do believe Jesus. Shouldn't I also believe when the Holy Spirit says in Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die..."?
If I look at Hebrews 9:27 completely literally, then I say "all men die".
If I look at John 11:26 completely literally, then I say "believers never die".
At face value, there appears a contadiction. But there isn't. So what's more to be understood? I believe that also ties into the OP of Elijah and Moses. Literal, figurative, spiritual? :dontknow:
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
IN MY OPINION:
1. The two passages are distinctly different events.
Here is, in my opinion, a good study on the white horse: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev85.htm
2. Benjamin is the youngest son. Brought to his older brother because of the hidden silver cup!
3. At the transfiguration, Peter, James and John were shown the completed/finished work, the Glory of God in the man Jesus in the NOW.
It could be said, in my opinion, that all 6 men at that present moment in time, experienced the lack of it.
Cardinal spoke well of this topic just the other day.
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2009, 11:41:05 AM
QuoteWhom do we believe?"
Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.
Quote from: jabcat on September 01, 2009, 10:48:19 AM
But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were - not necessarily that they're still literally standing there saying that today.
Hi James. Peace to you brother.
Now, all you got to do is apply the exact same reasoning to "the cloud of witnesses"
Checkout Hebrews 12:1 and compare it to the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11, and tell me what you see - in relation to: "But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were."
The word "witness" was translated from "martus" into three English words in the KJV: "witness" "record" and "martyr." The word "martus" can indeed be a reference to one who watches, but also as one who speaks:
Ac 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witness (the RECORD or the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected. You see what I mean?
Hey Seth. Peace back at'cha. Alright, good points. I'll think on it more. Thanks.
Oops, I added to the post after you replied. Sorry, sometimes things come to mind...
What I am getting at with the above is that it is not necessary for something to be conscious and alive to be a "witness" or a "record." It can be but not necessarily. What Hebrews 11 is saying is that the patriarchs all died in faith. THEY are the witness to us to LIVE by faith and that they will join us soon enough being asleep in Christ. Dying in faith was their witness to us. Heck, my blue t-shirt could be a witness that I like the color blue!
Yep, that's OK Seth. I think along the same lines with Mol on many, many things...seems you and I are thinking along the same lines on this topic, which may need to make us afraid :happygrin:. Just kidding. I'm all over the grace topic with you :thumbsup:.
Good find on the John 11:26 verse in the CLV Doc. Check this one out from The Christian Bible (a very literal translation to the Koine Greek);
"..and whoever is continually living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the begining of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]". Translated here, as it sounds to me, it's saying "won't taste (or at least BE HURT BY) the second death", which seems to align with other scripture. Not that they never stopped breathing and "died" ["appointed unto man once to die"], but that they remain spiritually alive/not hurt by the second death (now, whatever that is :Sparkletooth:).
Quote from: Doc on September 01, 2009, 11:47:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2009, 11:41:05 AM
QuoteWhom do we believe?"
Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.
Fine. I'll take it. I'll be one of the clouds of witnesses. How long is an eon?
"aion"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age
Wait--don't some other clauses kick in, like no second death?
Molly I thought you believed in timeLESSness? Now you believe in an unbroken age? How long would that age last for you? An infinite age? The perpetuity of time?
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 01:09:53 AM
Molly I thought you believed in timeLESSness? Now you believe in an unbroken age? How long would that age last for you? An infinite age? The perpetuity of time?
Not to mention death being swallowed up in victory. I forgot that clause. (I like to read the fine print but I don't always understand it).
Hey, I think we're good to go--into eternity.
You didn't answer my question.
Molly you have said to me:
But don't you think it is possible tor us to be free from time some day?
That is, unbound from the linear nature of time.
Then Doc said: "Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations."
then you appealed to this definition saying:
"Fine. I'll take it. I'll be one of the clouds of witnesses. How long is an eon?
"aion"
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age "
So what I am saying is that it appears that you are now appealing to the "linear nature of time" which is what an aion is by definition, "the perpetuity of time" to suggest that John 11:26 means that we will not die. John 11:26 says that we will not die for the eon. To prove that the scripture says that we will "never die" I would be interested in your response to that regarding your belief in timelessness, not a span of time called an aion.
How does John 11:26 prove that we will NEVER die, especially in light of what the scripture says that it is appointed to all men to die at least once?
Thank you all very much.
QuoteSo what I am saying is that it appears that you are now appealing to the "linear nature of time" which is what an aion is by definition, "the perpetuity of time" to suggest that John 11:26 means that we will not die. John 11:26 says that we will not die for the eon. To prove that the scripture says that we will "never die" I would be interested in your response to that regarding your belief in timelessness, not a span of time called an aion.
How does John 11:26 prove that we will NEVER die, especially in light of what the scripture says that it is appointed to all men to die at least once?
Not sure what you are saying but my contract has so many coverings, that should one fail, another would kick in. Maybe I already died--and that is behind me--maybe this 'aion' is forever--but I am nevertheless promised eternity with my Saviour--
Romans 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote from: Doc on September 01, 2009, 11:47:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 01, 2009, 11:41:05 AM
QuoteWhom do we believe?"
Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.
But the effect can be the same.
Say the eon lasts 10 years. That eon is followed by an infinitly long eon in which nobody dies.
So those who 'survive' the first 10 years never die.
If I state I won't die this year I just stated I won't die this year. In no way I said I'll die in 2010. Never add to what you read. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 07:18:33 AM
Not sure what you are saying but my contract has so many coverings, that should one fail, another would kick in. Maybe I already died--and that is behind me--maybe this 'aion' is forever--but I am nevertheless promised eternity with my Saviour--
If this aion is forever, then time never ends. And if Jesus says that those who believe on him will not be dying for the eon, it doesn't mean that they will never die.
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.
Also, aren't some scriptures seemingly talking about spiritual life/death, while others seem to be addressing physical life/death - for instance, for an eon? Without going out and finding particular ones, that's what I think anyway.
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 08:01:19 AM
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.
You gotta read the fine print--
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death? 4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;
death hath no more dominion over him. --Rom 6
Agreed jabcat.
Seth also agreed.
I think the first thing to figure out when exactly the eons are.
If the mentioned eon was for example when sinners are cast in LoF (2nd death) the saints don't die.
Then the verse suddenly makes a lot more sense.
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 08:01:19 AM
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.
You gotta read the fine print--
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
--Rom 6
Well, I don't really consider that fine print. But if that is how you interpret Hebrews 9, not sure why you said you were undecided that everyone would be saved. :dontknow:
Hebrews 9:27-28
and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this -- judgment, so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!
It is appointed to all men once to die and AFTER this, judgment. The judgment he is talking about is the completion, AFTER people die because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That is why all men must die like Christ. There are no exceptions provided in Hebrews 9 as to the likeness of Christ's death. Everyone will both die to sin, and
because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God all mortals are appointed to die that they may become immortal AFTER their mortal death leads to resurrection. The judgment for us is our final completion.
21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord,if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." 23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."
28When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private, "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."
--John 11
I really think that Jesus didn't use the word aion there as meaning a finite period of time. Otherwise, Martha would have said, like I did--How long is that?
Neither do I think Jesus would say I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me will live until 2015 [the end of the age]. That doesn't even make sense in that context.
Therefore, he was most surely saying, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.
After all, it's not the first time Jesus makes such claims.
John 8
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
JOhn 6
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.
John 6
50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 08:57:27 AM
21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord,if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." 23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."
28When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private,(AG) "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."
--John 11
I really think that Jesus didn't use the word aion there as meaning a finite period of time. Otherwise, Martha would have said, like I did--How long is that?
Neither do I think Jesus would say I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me will live until 2015 [the end of the age]. That doesn't even make sense in that context.
Therefore, he was most surely saying, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.
After all, it's not the first time Jesus makes such claims.
John 8
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
JOhn 6
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.
John 6
50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
What was missing in Martha's understanding was the Promise of the Spirit.
She did not realize that the gift of the aion, which is aionios life is Christ within. That is why Jesus said those who believe in "shall not be dying for the eon." Martha was only thinking about resurrection to immortality, not deliverance from sin. That is what Jesus was adding.
BOTH deliverance from sin AND immortality are promised through the gospel.
Morals die.
Sinners are living in death.
Jesus destroy both deaths because he gives aionios life (not being dead in the eon) and immortality when we mortals die as are appointed to do.
Quote"shall not be dying for the eon."
How long is that?
appointed unto man to die:
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
after this death, is judgment:
What did you do with this knowledge?
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
believe on him and never die; at the upcoming judgment day.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.------->second death
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
fell not----->never die.
how many heard???
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
believe on him----->never die second death at the day of judment
turn away----------->die SECOND death.
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 08:01:19 AM
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.
:cloud9: Or you could die to self in this life and never die.........man was in bondage to the fear of death (to self) all of his days........perfect love casts out all fear.......perfect love is no greater love has any man than this, that he die for his friend(s)......die as He died, live as He lives.......Blessings......
I am jumping in here lol , on a leap of faith :HeartThrob:
since we are talking about these things
I have considered the New Testament to be the BOOK OF LIFE ..
and written in them are these three names and those names have meaning as we can be found also in the same [boat/ body mind set]
Kim a dear friend pointed out to me once why did Jesus say Martha , Martha twice ? was she being double minded ? I thought Yes! of course that must be why Jesus called it out for observation !!
its a principal thing just look and see if Martha was being in the world / this life
and also being spirital minded too ! that is why she got so stressed out and asked for sisterly help ...
see the name meanings and what is in the book of life and how it does apply to our lives the soul and spirit of every one
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Strong's G3136 - Martha Martha = "she was rebellious"
probably of Aramaic origin (meaning mistress)
1) was the sister of Lazarus and Mary of Bethany
Strong's G3137 - Maria
Μαρία
Transliteration
Maria
Pronunciation
mä-rē'-ä (Key)
Part of Speech
proper feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
of Hebrew origin H4813
TDNT Reference
n/a
Variant Spellings
Alternate spelling: Μαριάμ.[about]
Outline of Biblical Usage
Mary or Miriam = "their rebellion"
Bethany = "house of dates" or, "house of misery"
1) a village at the Mount of Olives, about two miles (3 km) from Jerusalem, on or near the normal road to Jericho
2) a town or village on the east bank of the Jordan, where John was baptising
Jhn 11:1 ¶ Now a certain [man] was sick, [named] Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Lazarus = "whom God helps" (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)
1) an inhabitant of Bethany, beloved by Christ and raised from the dead by him
2) a very poor and wretched person to whom Jesus referred to in Luke 16:20-25
there is soooooooooooo much more to speak about with just these two
chapters in Luke and in John :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 09:07:29 AM
Quote"shall not be dying for the eon."
How long is that?
It doesn't matter.
Quote from: Zeek on September 02, 2009, 02:25:34 PM
appointed unto man to die:
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
after this death, is judgment:
What did you do with this knowledge?
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
believe on him and never die; at the upcoming judgment day.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.------->second death
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
fell not----->never die.
how many heard???
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Yes, Molly, as I said BOTH
deliverance from sin AND
immortality are promised through the gospel.
Morals die.
Sinners are living in death.
Jesus destroy both deaths because he gives aionios life (not being dead in the eon) and immortality when we mortals die as are appointed to do.
Mark 10:30
who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the
age that is coming,
aionios life;
Aionios life is defined by John as being something that can be within us now, because it is knowledge of God. The age to come that Jesus was talking about began with Pentecost.
2 Tim 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought LIFE
and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel
Compare to:
John 11:26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me,
though he DIE,
yet shall he live, and everyone WHO LIVES
and believes in me shall not die
in the aion.
So Jesus is saying two things in that verse:
1) Whoever believes, THOUGH HE DIE (as everyone does), YET SHALL HE LIVE. (the promise of immortality to those who will die since they are mortal, yet they will live because except a seed go into the ground and die, it cannot live)
2) Whoever IS ALIVE and believes in Christ shall not die IN THE AION (the promise of the life of Christ by the spirit unto deliverance from sin)
That is why I repeat that both life and immorality are brought to light through the gospel. Jesus is confirming BOTH to Martha. That is why I say that it doesn't matter "how long" the aion is. Each person has an aion, in which they have aionios life provided that they are alive in their aion and able to believe.
Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God which is why, though Christ was spiritual in his mind, his perfection was in casting of the mortal flesh, which is what we look forward to. That is what Jesus is laying out for martha, the full process.
1) If people believe in Christ while they live, then they will be delivered from death in sin because they shall not be dying in the aion (aionios life)
2) ALSO, they will have immortality when the process is completed by dying in their mortality and being raised immortal ("though they die, yet shall they live")
Then they will be perfected.
2 Corinthians 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul had no doubt that he was clothed with the MIND of Christ. Yet he yearned to ALSO clothe himself with immortality, which he knew would not happen while in his mortal body. Paul knew that BOTH the life of Christ unto salvation of our minds and immortality are covered by the gospel. So, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.
QuoteSo, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.
I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics. When, then, would you say I receive immortality? When I physically die? Or when some event happens at the end of the age?
But I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ. Therefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ]. Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.
If you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.
Thus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now. It will be over with at physical death, and maybe even while we are still alive in this body. Thus, I don't expect to even experience a hiccup at my physical death, which I have also already experienced.
In other words, I am already immortal.
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. --Rom 8
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 08:11:04 PM
QuoteSo, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.
I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics. When, then, would you say I receive immortality? When I physically die? Or when some event happens at the end of the age?
But I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ. Therefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ]. Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.
If you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.
Thus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now. It will be over with at physical death, and maybe even while we are still alive in this body. Thus, I don't expect to even experience a hiccup at my physical death, which I have also already experienced.
In other words, I am already immortal.
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--Rom 8
Hi! Molly
Every once-an'-awhile someone posts a comment in here which simply elevates things to a most wonderful level of thought ... this is certainly one of them!
Thanks!
Hi Molly, peace to you. I have not said that enough to you. I hope our disagreements haven't caused a fracture with us. We may have disagreements but I respect and love you. I just felt I should say that and should have said it longer ago.
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2009, 08:11:04 PM
I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics. When, then, would you say I receive immortality? When I physically die? Or when some event happens at the end of the age?
Well, semantics is the branch of linguistics concerned with meaning. I don't think it has a negative reality people give it. We are discussing meaning. What I believe is that we receive immortality when we go down as a seed dead, and then are raised like a tree.
QuoteBut I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ.
If you were PHYSICALLY dead, then you would not be able to type on your keyboard. I also consider myself to be dead, but not physically yet. I consider my old self to have died, that is my old sinful way. However, I am still mortal because I look forward in hope to completion. That which is seen is not hope. If it is already done we do not hope for it (Romans 8).
QuoteTherefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ]. Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.
Christ was not perfected until he cast away the flesh he was lowered into. Same with us. We follow the same process: cleansed mind >>> casting away the literal flesh. Christ was dead twofold in that respect: He was dead to the body in his heart and mind, then he died physically on the cross, and was raised literally. We follow in his footsteps.
Being raised to newness of life is not the same as being perfected and immortal. I am raised from the dead to and, in this aion, will not die again as I continue to believe in Christ and he continues to be my aionios life.
QuoteIf you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.
Well here is the kicker, and why we probably do not need to hash it out, and why I usually don't talk about "sleep" or "soul sleep" because I realized this truth: NOBODY experiences sleep. NOBODY experiences death when they are dead. In the grave there is NO KNOWLEDGE. Being so, nobody realizes they are dead. The experience from mortal death to immortal life is experientially instantaneous.
So in this I totally agree: I do not expect to experience sleep.
QuoteThus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now.
Yes our perfection is happening now UNTIL we are made perfect. Like Christ said: "On the third day I will be perfected." What happened on the third day?
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. --Rom 8
Again, not meaning to beat a dead horse, but BOTH newness of life (aionios life - the life of the age) and immortality are promised through the Gospel. Contextually, the "law of sin and death" is experience of slavery to sin. You see, we are delivered from this body of death in that our minds are separated from its slave-pull. Yet as Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age.
We are in the first stage of perfecting: putting on Christ so that our minds will be changed and delivered from the law of sin and death. And yet while we are in these bodies we yearn to cast it away because these bodies disappoint us, as the apostle said. I have not PHYSICALLY died yet, otherwise I would have a hard time typing this. I would be in the grave. The death I have experienced now is death to sin.
The perfecting is when we physically die, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can corruption inherit incorruption.
So you and I agree that someday we will have new bodies after these are done with. Cool. You believe that you will recieve that immediately after your death. I do not. But we both agree that
experientially, it will be instant.
Seth said: "Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age."
Immortality, imo; doesn't have to be in relation to "physical death", but in receiving the "end of our faith"---->salvation.
Right, salvation. First we are saved from the body of this death by our minds be saved from slavery TO it. And because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God we must also die and be reborn as Christ died and was reborn.
Christ's death was two fold: he was always dead TO the body, and then his body actually died and he was raised three days later. By his own words, in so doing he was perfected.
Philippians 3:10-16
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded, and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Whatever we have already attained, and among those who are perfect or completed, you ought to be thus minded, you are not already perfect and have not already attained the resurrection of the dead. You see, in the sense of being resurrected to life from death in sin, that is the BEGINNING of the process of perfection.
Just like Paul, I count myself NOT already to have attained, and am NOT already perfect. I will be perfect when I no longer "groan in this tent" to "put on immortality."
Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
1 Corinthians 15:35-49
But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
If we are to bear the likeness of the man from heaven, HOW will we do that? By casting off the flesh. In that manner, we will be perfected, as it has begun by receiving the spirit, which is described as a foretaste of future glory. That is why, though we have aionios life, we still will attain the resurrection of the dead by being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.
That teaching applies to BOTH life of the ages AND immortality. Both are included. As long as we have mortality we are subject to a mortal death (being that such is the very definition of mortality), and WHEN we receive a new body THEN we will be clothed with immortality.
Well, i'm one who believes Paul received immortality the salvation of his soul, while alive physically. But I lean toward that "evil"preterist view, so to me; I don't believe physical death is in the equation. But, I'm at work; so haven't had time to look over your last post well. I'll take a better look tonight.
Well, there are lots of people who say "I have already attained" and are therefore NOT "thus minded" with Paul. But I agree with Paul, "I count myself not to have already attained."
If receiving the "foretaste of future glory" is the only manifestation, then Paul should have said "I DO count myself to have attained, and I AM already perfect." He didn't say that and neither do I because I know that the flesh - by it's very nature - lusts against the Spirit and will be sown dead to be raised in power.
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 10:58:56 PM
Well, there are lots of people who say "I have already attained." But I agree with Paul, "I count myself not to have already attained."
If receiving the "foretaste of future glory" is the only manifestation, then Paul should have said "I DO count myself to have attained, and I AM already perfect." He didn't say that and neither do I because I know that the flesh - by it's very nature - lusts against the Spirit and will be sown dead to be raised in power.
But when Paul wrote this, the "end hadn't come yet", but was soon, very soon.
Exactly, the end hadn't come yet, EVEN THOUGH he had already received the Holy Spirit. So even though having received "the foretaste of FUTURE glory" he counted himself NOT to have attained the resurrection of the dead. What I see people doing is saying that receiving the "foretaste" IS the final resurrection and that is evidenced by how they quote scripture.
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2009, 11:05:03 PM
Exactly, the end hadn't come yet, EVEN THOUGH he had already received the Holy Spirit. So even though having received "the foretaste of FUTURE glory" he counted himself NOT to have attained the resurrection of the dead. What I see people doing is saying that receiving the "foretaste" IS the final resurrection and that is evidenced by how they quote scripture.
I agree with this, but; I don't think it's "physical death" that is the "end" or means to resurrection. But I do understand what where u are coming from.
Quote from: Zeek on September 02, 2009, 10:35:54 PM
Seth said: "Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age."
Immortality, imo; doesn't have to be in relation to "physical death", but in receiving the "end of our faith"---->salvation.
Hi!
It may be the case that the term 'body' and also 'death' at various Scriptures requires closer examination to obtain proper comprenhension/definition.
For one thing, we have TWO 'bodies'.
Yeah, I can jus' 'bout hear groans of consternation over that idea.
The second thing is that we have to understand that 'death' is not merely confined to an event, it is also denoted as a spiritual power which is named (personified) as 'Death'.
Oh, oh! More groans to be heard.
:happygrin:
Presently, we dwell in a natural body; we call it a physical body because it is made of earthly elements which are visible in this physical dimension.
The invisible part of everyone (inner man and/or hidden man of the heart) is comprised of their soul and spirit which "DWELLS" or remains hidden in this their physical body.
But we also possess a heavenly body; the Bible names this as a 'spiritual' body because it is invisible and belongs to the spiritual/invisible realm.
The apostle Paul confirms this: "It
is sown a natural body; it
is raised a spiritual body. There
is a natural body, and there
IS a spiritual body."
So, we should not be surprised to learn that we are to have and obtain spiritual garments to clothe our spiritual bodies. This explains why Adam and Eve were found naked; they were naked spiritually. This also explains how it is that we have and weave our garments and why James speaks about "motheaten garments" and when reading Rev 3:4 and 16:15 speaking about, "keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame".
So, we should not be surprised to learn that we are to obtain spiritual garments to clothe our spiritual bodies. We should also not be surprised to learn that our spiritual body possesses similar counterparts as our physical body. This is why is speaks about our spiritual ears and of spiritual eyes. God too is a spiritual being possessing a spiritual body and thus it is also said of Him, "arm of God", "hand of God" and so forth.
Here is an admitted faulty parable to draw an illustration:
If a team of medical engineers were to place your physical body under a most powerful microscope, what would they find?
Would they find your soul? Your spirit? No. Would they find a thought? A remembering? Would they find a conscience? Of course not.
So, what would they really discover about you?
Well, to use an illustration, they would discover that you are functioning as something like a TV.
Oops! The echo of another groan can be heard. :bigGrin:
Why a TV?
Well, for the simple reason that your physical body essentially functions as a RECEIVER.
You would agree that every TV has the ability to RECEIVE signals from out of the air, right?
And, you would agree too that image being viewed on the TV screen depends entirely on which channel the TV tuned into set to 'listen' to.
Now, a question:
If you smashed your home TV into a million pieces, would you find your favorite song artist concealed amidst the wiring? Is your favorite news broadcaster hiding behind the wiring? No, of course not.
What would you find inside your the television apparatus which you tore apart into pieces?
Plain and simply: a receiver.
That's all.
So, now you and the medical engineering team are in the same boat.
Follow me so far?
Now, here's something intriguing to add to the illustration of the TV:
The Bible speaks of two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Light (God) and the Kingdom of Darkness (evil one). But it also mentions the Kingdom of Heaven.
What is the kingdom of heaven?
Well, again I remind you: we have to remember that we are addressing things here which defy both natural sight and natural explanation. The best that anyone can do is to try and explain things through the use of illustrations or 'parables'.
The kingdom of heaven can be hurriedly defined by the all encompassing term of the 'invisible world of the spirits'.
The kingdom of heaven could be said to be an umbrella of sorts (so to speak).
Within the kingdom of heaven are two distinct separate atmospheres and/or climates: these are namely the realm of light and darkness.
So, now back to the illustration of the TV and radio.
Every human body is pre-wired (so to speak) to connect to the kingdom of heaven; to connect to the 'invisible world of the spirits'. This is the primary function of the human spirit.
Every human spirit is able to tune into (so to speak) a spiritual atmosphere containing either the 'Channel Light' or 'Channel Darkness'.
So, using this frail parable of the TV, we could also say that our physical body can behave similar to a TV screen; it can broadcast the evidence of which kingdom you are tuned into or preoccupied with. Those tuned into the kingdom of light, ("whose minds are set on things above where Christ is"), experience joy, peace and righteousness and this oftentimes becomes visible for everyone to witness. In the case of those who are preoccupied with the kingdom of darkness, these too oftentimes broadcast the channel they have chosen; such as depression, fear, guilt and anxiety.
But the most important thing to realize is that what occurs 'invisibly' here on earth becomes 'visible' in the Kingdom of Heaven because it is revealed in your spiritual body.
And, now for fear of creating more than my fair share of groanings, I will end my comments. But I might later have opportunity to explain the term 'Death' at greater length if people here might be tolerant of me and invite me back. :happygrin:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Jesus literally died, yet this is a "spiritual baptism"
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Jesus was literally buried, we are "spiritually buried". Christ was literally raised, we are "raised in likeness"
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
likeness:
G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
hom-oy'-o-mah
From G3666; a form; abstractly resemblance: - made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.
Yet as the Bible shows, those who have attained a Spiritual baptism have not yet been perfected, and have not attained unto the resurrection of the dead. Even Paul could apply Romans 6 to himself, yet he knew that he had not been perfected either, and said that he did not "count himself to have obtained" the resurrection of the dead. This is why to say that upon receiving the Spirit, we have already been raised is not correct according to what the Bible says.
Do you know who else had the Spirit? JESUS! He had a whole lot of Spirit, just as he promised to give to us. Yet even as he said: he was not yet perfected. He would be perfected on the third day.
John 17:4-6
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This is why I said that Jesus' death was TWO fold. He was already dead to the flesh BEFORE he literally died.
Jesus had a baptism of the Spirit before he released his "flesh and blood" (signified when he was baptized with water) so why was he asking God to glorify him with the same glory he had before the world was? Because he was LOWERED into the flesh. That is why, EVEN with a Spiritual baptism we have not been fully raised and have not attained the completion and the perfection that occurs when we have cast away the flesh. What Romans 6 describes is not the end, but the beginning.
This is what it means to go "from glory to glory."
Quote from: Zeek on September 03, 2009, 01:57:05 AM
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Jesus literally died, yet this is a "spiritual baptism"
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Jesus was literally buried, we are "spiritually buried". Christ was literally raised, we are "raised in likeness"
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
likeness:
G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
hom-oy'-o-mah
From G3666; a form; abstractly resemblance: - made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.
Hi! Zeek
Jus' tuh hurriedly add sumthin' to your comments:
Speaking of 'spiritual' and 'literal':
It can be said that Jesus was crucified BOTH literally AND spiritually.
We are all in agreement that the crucifixion/death of Jesus occurred at Calvary.
However, the Bible also mentions that Jesus was crucified '
spiritually' too.
"And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified"
The natural life of Jesus was crucified in the visible world at Calvary, but his inner life was crucified in the invisible world ... in the 'city of darkness' and presided over by the realm of death.
I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.
The "body of death", imo wasnt' about the "physical body",
Paul spoke of not having attained the ressurrection yet, imo; not because he hadn't physically died; but because the "Ishmaels" were still in place, and the judgment was yet to come.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Paul wasnt' persecuting himself, ie: his "flesh" persecuting his "inner man", he wasn't himself "mixing the two",
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The establishing of the second, imo; is the resurrection. The end of your faith; the salvation of your soul. Imo, not physical death; but death of death
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Quote from: Zeek on September 03, 2009, 05:37:05 AM
I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.
Some sort of weird routing problem.
I'm at office and TM does not load at all. When I log to my home PC (from office) I can instantly open TM.
So at the same time its dead and fast.
:cloud9: There are two resurrections; one in the body, one by death to the body. Blessings....
Is there a relationship between these verses? A reversal of fortune? First separated [in death], then joined together [in death]? First one flesh, then [raised] one Spirit?
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
--Gen 2
"and he slept"
H3462
ישׁן
yâshên
yaw-shane'
A primitive root; properly to be slack or languid, that is, (by implication) sleep (figuratively to die); also to grow old, stale or inveterate: - old (store), remain long, (make to) sleep.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
--Rom 6
"we are buried" [with him]
G4916
συνθάπτω
sunthaptō
soon-thap'-to
From G4862 and G2290; to inter in company with, that is, (figuratively) to assimilate spiritually (to Christ by a sepulture as to sin): - bury with.
planted together "
G4854
σύμφυτος
sumphutos
soom'-foo-tos
From G4862 and a derivative of G5453; grown along with (connate), that is, (figuratively) closely united to: - planted together.
1 Corinthians 15:18
....those also who have fallen asleep in Christ ....
"fallen asleep" [in Christ]
G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
--John 11
Quote from: Zeek on September 03, 2009, 05:37:05 AM
I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.
The "body of death", imo wasnt' about the "physical body",
Paul spoke of not having attained the ressurrection yet, imo; not because he hadn't physically died; but because the "Ishmaels" were still in place, and the judgment was yet to come.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Paul wasnt' persecuting himself, ie: his "flesh" persecuting his "inner man", he wasn't himself "mixing the two",
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The establishing of the second, imo; is the resurrection. The end of your faith; the salvation of your soul. Imo, not physical death; but death of death
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Paul was actually pretty clear that he had been delivered from the law. He did not teach that he was both under Moses and under Grace. What Paul taught was that because our old man has died we HAVE been delivered from the law, which is why he was so angry with the Galatians for returning to it. What Paul was actually talking about in Galatians 5 was the difference between those who are in bondage to sin and the law, and how they were persecuting those who were telling them about their own Messiah.
1 Peter 2:7-9
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Receiving the Holy Spirit is what delivers us from the sinful man, and THAT is what makes being under the old covenant pass away,
YET, scripturally being baptized in the Spirit is the LIKENESS of the resurrection. Nobody can be perfected in the flesh. That is the point that the scripture is making. The flesh itself CANNOT inherit the Spirit. The flesh is doooooomed.
Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith,
not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us
so that only together with us would they be made perfect.To be made perfect requires that we be conformed to the Heavenly man.
Philippians 3:10-16
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any
means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
1) Paul knew that he had the Holy Spirit, and he knew that he had been made a new creature in Christ, and that he had put on Christ
2) Paul knew that such a thing is "the LIKENESS" of resurrection
3) Paul knew that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
3) Paul knew and confessed that he was not already perfect
4) Paul knew that he had not attained the resurrection of the dead
What is it called: "The resurrection OF THE DEAD." To attain the resurrection, Paul will be dead (asleep) to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD. The scriptures that pertain to the LIKENESS of the resurrection (aionios life) are not proof of themselves that the resurrection has already been attained.
1 Cor 15:39
All flesh is not the same:
Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;
but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and AFTER THAT the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
That is the resurrection of the DEAD. That is how we are to be made conformable to Christ's death BOTH in being set free from sin (which is the LIKENESS of the resurrection) and being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body so that we may bear the likeness of the man from heaven.....IN ALL WAYS.
The reason it is called the resurrection of the dead is because the dead are to be resurrected. To be resurrected we must be dead, because first what is natural, then AFTER THAT, the spiritual, to be sown and raised. But FIRST, to be in the likeness of the resurrection, we must be raised from sin (aionios life), which, again, is the likeness of the resurrection of the dead.
Paul attained the likeness, the "foretaste," but not the resurrection of the dead that he may be perfected.
BTW, you guys, this is just the way I see it. Not meaning to be argumentative. I actually don't usually discuss this much anyway as I have seen what discussions on so called "soul sleep" can turn into. I don't interpret the scripture from a Preterist viewpoint. There is a living word and a written word that testifies about the living. I interpret the word therefore from an "is was and will be" perspective, not just the "was" perspective. To me it has been a liberating way to see things because it brings fuller meaning to me, and does reflect the is, was, and will be character of the Living Word. So I just see that there was a resurrection, there is a resurrection, and there will be a resurrection. That is why I have the opinions I do regarding the scriptures that I see.
Much love to you all. :HeartThrob:
Hi Seth--
I'm wondering if you are taking this to a place it was not meant to go. You keep telling us flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as if that means I have to kill myself or die to inherit the kingdom of God. That is not what Paul is saying. I can live in this flesh and blood and still inherit the kingdom of God. But, it is my spirit which inherits it, not my flesh. It is my faith which inherits, not my works. Just trying to make that clear, lest we end up with more purple shrouds and koolaid of those wishing to 'inherit' before their time.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"at hand"
G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 07:38:25 PM
Hi Seth--
I'm wondering if you are taking this to a place it was not meant to go. You keep telling us flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as if that means I have to kill myself or die to inherit the kingdom of God. That is not what Paul is saying. I can live in this flesh and blood and still inherit the kingdom of God. But, it is my spirit which inherits it, not my flesh. It is my faith which inherits, not my works. Just trying to make that clear, lest we end up with more purple shrouds and koolaid of those wishing to 'inherit' before their time.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"at hand"
G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.
Well to me I think it is clear enough that receiving the Spirit does not mean that we have attained the resurrection of the dead. It means we have attained the LIKENESS of it, and that our perfection is in attaining the resurrection...of the dead. What I am saying is that Paul will attain the resurrection of the dead, by being resurrected from the dead.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
--Rom 8
This is saying to me that I can be called, justified, and glorified while in this body--right now. It's written in the past tense. Paul is always circumspect when talking about himself--and he even tells us as much when he says to a Jew he becomes a Jew and to a Gentile he becomes a Gentile. His purpose is not to discourage anyone, I believe, and not to lord it over anyone else. For this purpose, he calls himself a servant and the chief of sinners.
But, if my faith is Christ, if my spirit is Christ, if my mind is Christ--If Paul's greatest gospel to the saints is Christ in you the hope of glory, then all of this is available to me in this life and in this body, even without the glorified body of the better resurrection. And, I have access to plenty of company--a cloud of witnesses-- to help me achieve such perfection as is possible right now.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--12
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
Quote from: Seth on September 03, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
BTW, you guys, this is just the way I see it. Not meaning to be argumentative. I actually don't usually discuss this much anyway as I have seen what discussions on so called "soul sleep" can turn into. I don't interpret the scripture from a Preterist viewpoint. There is a living word and a written word that testifies about the living. I interpret the word therefore from an "is was and will be" perspective, not just the "was" perspective. To me it has been a liberating way to see things because it brings fuller meaning to me, and does reflect the is, was, and will be character of the Living Word. So I just see that there was a resurrection, there is a resurrection, and there will be a resurrection. That is why I have the opinions I do regarding the scriptures that I see.
Much love to you all. :HeartThrob:
how can there ever be a consumation, if the LIVING WORD is "will be"??
Death can never be fully destroyed, because of the "will be". Always a future resurrection??
Not sure I understand this??
Quote from: sparrow on September 03, 2009, 08:55:49 PM
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
hmmm...
Cardinal! :HeartThrob: Help me out here..
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 08:50:29 PM
This is saying to me that I can be called, justified, and glorified while in this body--right now. It's written in the past tense. Paul is always circumspect when talking about himself--and he even tells us as much when he says to a Jew he becomes a Jew and to a Gentile he becomes a Gentile. His purpose is not to discourage anyone, I believe, and not to lord it over anyone else. For this purpose, he calls himself a servant and the chief of sinners.
While in this body, we can be called, made righteous (justified), and glorified. However, we will move from glory to glory.
John 17:4-6
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Did Jesus not have the Holy Spirit already when he said this? Of course he did. He was called, justified, and glorified (Hebrews 2:7-8). But he also knew that he had been lowered into the flesh. So, to be glorified and "perfected on the third day" Jesus died and was resurrected, and thus was given the glory he had before the world was, that is before he was lowered into the flesh.
This why, though Paul knew that he was called, made righteous (justified), and glorified, though he "counted himself not to have attained (the resurrection of the dead) or was already perfect." The reason he said that is because, while in this body, we have attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection.
That is exactly, as Sparrow pointed out, why our bodies continue to decay and why we groan to be clothed, not with the mind of Christ (which we have indeed been blessed with according to the "foretaste of future glory"), but with his immortality and NON-decay as well.
QuoteWhile in this body, we can be called, made righteous (justified), and glorified. However, we will move from glory to glory.
Ok, we're making some progress here, but I think it's just a matter of that with God, things always get better and better.
QuoteThat is exactly, as Sparrow pointed out, why our bodies continue to decay and why we groan to be clothed, not with the mind of Christ (which we have indeed been blessed with according to the "foretaste of future glory"), but with his immortality and NON-decay as well.
Then, how did those patriarchs live hundreds of years with a 'decaying' body, some as long as 1000 years? What did they know, that we don't?
Actually they didn't know anything that we don't. The prophets did not minister to themselves but to us about better things. As to why mortals had a longer life, who knows? Some people die naturally at 60, and some people die naturally at 110. It's just the state of things, though I am sure it has some metaphoric meaning. Bodies are ALWAYS decaying, just not always at the same rate.
QuoteOk, we're making some progress here, but I think it's just a matter of that with God, things always get better and better.
I agree. I think there is an order and process as to how that happens.
The manifested Sons of God will have the glorified body of Christ in full measure of the Spirit.
We also will eat that piece of fish!
Ephesians - Weymouth
4:13 till we all of us arrive at oneness in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and at mature manhood and the stature of full-grown men in Christ.
mmmm....broiled fish. One of my all time favorites. :winkgrin:
It represents the victory of the Spirit.
Yes, I know. It represents a caught fish (men).
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: sparrow on September 03, 2009, 08:55:49 PM
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
hmmm...
Cardinal! :HeartThrob: Help me out here..
:cloud9: It is subject to decay, that's true. But there is a resurrection while still in the body, that Paul was speaking of. It is when Christ that is within, who is the INCORRUPTION, swallows up the corruption of this body without. This is why we received Christ within as our hope of glory, and why He prayed for the glory He had to be restored; as one with Him as His body, that means we get restored to the glory we had before the foundation of the world too, when we were one with Him.
The 'church' has sold a false glory to the people, with doctrines robbing Him of a body to be glorified IN, first with dying to go to heaven, which is a state of being we are in RIGHT NOW, but can't perceive it without the Spirit opening our eyes as He did Elijah's, and second, with their 'rapture' doctrines of flying away.
Our hope of glory is Christ IN US, period. Blessings....
PS. I see the fish also as attaining to be able to "throw our nets to the right (Spirit) side".
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 03:40:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: sparrow on September 03, 2009, 08:55:49 PM
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
hmmm...
Cardinal! :HeartThrob: Help me out here..
It is subject to decay, that's true.
Ok. I have to stop here.
Do we all agree that our
physical flesh bodies are in a state of decay and will one day die (as in the heart stops pounding, you stop breathing, etc.)?
Or do some of you think that your physical body of flesh and blood will not physically die?
I think this really needs to be clarified before we go any further.
We shall not all die!
1 Corinthians 15: 51 in particular.
Sparrow, do you read the scriptures?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:01:33 AM
1 Corinthians 15: 51 in particular.
Sparrow, do you read the scriptures?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
As in the other thread where you reprimanded me...I held my tongue.
Now I am asking you. Please refrain from treating me this way.
If you do not want to discuss things, then please just don't participate.
Thank you.
Just pointing out scriptures that answer your question should you choose to read them yourself sometime.
And I did not reprimand you, perhaps you took it that way, not my intention.
The Word is available to all, yea even the Gentiles.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:07:29 AM
Just pointing out scriptures that answer you question should you choose to read them yourself sometime.
No. I am asking someone what their beliefs are. I DO read the scriptures.
And to make it seem like I DO NOT is a terrible assumption on your part.
I am asking people what they BELIEVE.
This is what a discussion forum is for... to discuss things.
Share beliefs.
Again, as I pointed out in the other thread. I am asking for people to
clarify their beliefs.
Some believe that the lake of fire, for instance, is literal flames. Others do not.
If we didn't clarify our beliefs to each other, we know NOTHING about what other's believe.
We would only ASSume that they are on the same page as us when perhaps they are on a different page altogether.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:09:30 AM
And I did not reprimand you, perhaps you took it that way, not my intention.
The Word is available to all, yea even the Gentiles.
One question mark would have been sufficient.
WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE !
That's what I believe and why the body of Christ needs to come to the unity of the faith.
UNTIL is a big word in the scrips. Until... we do what is required — we rot.
However, the days will be cut short for the elect!
Praise God.
Get on board! The ship is sailing.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:17:54 AM
WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE !
That's what I believe and why the body of Christ needs to come to the unity of the faith.
UNTIL is a big word in the scrips. Until... we do what is required — we rot.
However, the days will be cut short for the elect!
Praise God.
Get on board! The ship is sailing.
Thank you for clarifying your beliefs.
:Peace:
Quote from: sparrow on September 04, 2009, 03:49:08 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 03:40:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: sparrow on September 03, 2009, 08:55:49 PM
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
hmmm...
Cardinal! :HeartThrob: Help me out here..
It is subject to decay, that's true.
Ok. I have to stop here.
Do we all agree that our physical flesh bodies are in a state of decay and will one day die (as in the heart stops pounding, you stop breathing, etc.)?
Or do some of you think that your physical body of flesh and blood will not physically die?
I think this really needs to be clarified before we go any further.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. --1 Cor 15
"sleep"G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep,
be dead.
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 04:26:17 AM
Quote from: sparrow on September 04, 2009, 03:49:08 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 03:40:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2009, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: sparrow on September 03, 2009, 08:55:49 PM
This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.
hmmm...
Cardinal! :HeartThrob: Help me out here..
It is subject to decay, that's true.
Ok. I have to stop here.
Do we all agree that our physical flesh bodies are in a state of decay and will one day die (as in the heart stops pounding, you stop breathing, etc.)?
Or do some of you think that your physical body of flesh and blood will not physically die?
I think this really needs to be clarified before we go any further.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
"sleep"
G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Ok, so that I don't assume... Are you also saying that you believe that some will not taste physical death?
(I don't have a problem with this belief, by the way...) I am just, I guess wondering about how far some take this belief. As in, do you believe that we don't NEED to die a physical death, but that there is something that we should be DOING in order to NOT die a physical death? This is the feeling I'm getting from a few on this thread and I'm trying to understand what it is that they are really saying here. I'm not talking spiritual here, I'm talking LITERAL physical death, heart stops beating, etc.
For instance, beloved is talking about "UNTIL..." and that we are not in unity of faith.
"until we do what is required" is what beloved said..
Thanks..
The only way that I could see people not dying physical death is if God's love finally permeated everyone's heart. That is what we need to be doing, is going out there and spreading LOVE. Showing everyone what God really is! LOVE. If Love permeated every single person's heart, than the curse would reverse itself, I'm thinking. It would be "heaven on earth". But is that something that is in the near future?
I can also see it in the way that some believe that Jesus will return. But some see this as He is returning amongst great calamity and then more calamity and some see it as once the gospel (the true good news) has been actually preached to the ends of the earth. (If the true gospel were preached and understood... then love WOULD start to permeate every heart.) That isn't even nearly completed. It seems it is only now just starting...!
I can understand these two views and am wondering if you all are talking about either one or both or something else altogether.
Thanks..
Sparrow, did you read 1 Corinthians 15 ?
That is the promise of God!
There is no opinion of belief, it is His truth.
QuoteOk, so that I don't assume... Are you also saying that you believe that some will not taste physical death?
(I don't have a problem with this belief, by the way...) I am just, I guess wondering about how far some take this belief. As in, do you believe that we don't NEED to die a physical death, but that there is something that we should be DOING in order to NOT die a physical death? This is the feeling I'm getting from a few on this thread and I'm trying to understand what it is that they are really saying here. I'm not talking spiritual here, I'm talking LITERAL physical death, heart stops beating, etc.
For instance, beloved is talking about "UNTIL..." and that we are not in unity of faith.
"until we do what is required" is what beloved said..
Thanks..
I'm not saying it. The scripture is saying it. We shall not all sleep....That's the same word that Jesus uses for Lazarus. He has that 'who's on first' discussion with the disciples where he says, Lazarus is asleep--let's go wake him up. And, they say, oh good, he's not dead yet. And, Jesus says Lazarus is dead. lol And, they are--huh? who's on first? He's dead?
So the scripture is saying we shall not all die...
But, more than that---our bodies are incredible healing machines--and there are many who have experienced supernatural healing, as well, [for which cause I called upon Cardinal]. I think we are too quick to assume death and decay of our physical bodies is our lot.
Good book I'm reading right now--Never be Sick Again.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:39:01 AM
Sparrow, did you read 1 Corinthians 15 ?
That is the promise of God!
There is no opinion of belief, it is His truth.
People interpret scriptures in different ways, Beloved.
Why do you think there are so many different demoninations...(oops denominations.) ?
It's because we are all at different places learning.
and having truth revealed to us.
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 04:39:14 AM
QuoteOk, so that I don't assume... Are you also saying that you believe that some will not taste physical death?
(I don't have a problem with this belief, by the way...) I am just, I guess wondering about how far some take this belief. As in, do you believe that we don't NEED to die a physical death, but that there is something that we should be DOING in order to NOT die a physical death? This is the feeling I'm getting from a few on this thread and I'm trying to understand what it is that they are really saying here. I'm not talking spiritual here, I'm talking LITERAL physical death, heart stops beating, etc.
For instance, beloved is talking about "UNTIL..." and that we are not in unity of faith.
"until we do what is required" is what beloved said..
Thanks..
I'm not saying it. The scripture is saying it. We shall not all sleep....That's the same word that Jesus uses for Lazarus. He has that 'who's on first' discussion with the disciples where he says, Lazarus is asleep--let's go wake him up. And, they say, oh good, he's not dead yet. And, Jesus says Lazarus is dead. lol And, they are--huh? who's on first? He's dead?
So the scripture is saying we shall not all die...
But, more than that---our bodies are incredible healing machines--and there are many who have experienced supernatural healing, as well, [for which cause I called upon Cardinal]. I think we are too quick to assume death and decay of our physical bodies is our lot.
Good book I'm reading right now--Never be Sick Again.
Ok. I guess we're on just different pages then.
I do not believe that this physical body is decaying because I am not doing something right.
Perhaps, but not when the Word says: We will not all die.
Quote from: sparrow on September 04, 2009, 04:41:10 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:39:01 AM
Sparrow, did you read 1 Corinthians 15 ?
That is the promise of God!
There is no opinion of belief, it is His truth.
People interpret scriptures in different ways, Beloved.
Why do you think there are so many different demoninations...(oops denominations.) ?
It's because we are all at different places learning.
and having truth revealed to us.
well, there aren't really two ways to interpret that statement--we shall not all sleep...since the word is used elsewhere to mean die. That's what the word means.
I suppose you could just ignore it.
Sorrow: "I do not believe that this physical body is decaying because I am not doing something right."
It's not. We can do nothing but avail ourselves to the faith of God.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:48:59 AM
Sparrow: "I do not believe that this physical body is decaying because I am not doing something right."
It's not. We can do nothing but avail ourselves to the faith of God.
But that's not to say we should remain ignorant of everything we could do correctly..
Amen, Amen, Amen.
He died so that we live.
We die so that He lives.
Amen, Amen, Amen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGsvbCH6nU
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 04:47:49 AM
Quote from: sparrow on September 04, 2009, 04:41:10 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 04:39:01 AM
Sparrow, did you read 1 Corinthians 15 ?
That is the promise of God!
There is no opinion of belief, it is His truth.
People interpret scriptures in different ways, Beloved.
Why do you think there are so many different demoninations...(oops denominations.) ?
It's because we are all at different places learning.
and having truth revealed to us.
well, there aren't really two ways to interpret that statement--we shall not all sleep...since the word is used elsewhere to mean die. That what the word means.
I suppose you could just ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it. But it could be interepreted differently.
The whole chapter.
How many have interepreted all the verses of destruction to mean human beings will be destroyed?
All I am doing, is asking people to clarify what it is exactly that they believe.I never said I agreed OR disagreed with what "not all shall sleep" means.
btw... beloved... the name is sparrow. NOT Sorrow. :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 04:39:14 AM
But, more than that---our bodies are incredible healing machines--and there are many who have experienced supernatural healing, as well, [for which cause I called upon Cardinal]. I think we are too quick to assume death and decay of our physical bodies is our lot.
Good book I'm reading right now--Never be Sick Again.
:cloud9: Absolutely, Molly. He dropped something into me when He healed me of terminal cancer in a week's time (from diagnosis) without ANY medical intervention. It was that if we keep walking in obedience to Him and He keeps healing/restoring our body, then what can kill us? Think about it. Blessings.....
Immortality is the children's bread. :Sparkletooth:
That was beautiful Martin, just beautiful!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUd4-dxAm-E
In the nick of time...
What is wrong with death? It is the doorway to life.
Further, while yes, God CAN heal if he so chooses.
But this is not the point of this life.
Afflictions bring us closer to Him.
Those who are not healed, are NOT lacking.
I'm not saying that anyone here is saying that.
But it IS what some DO say. And I feel that is a dangerous teaching.
Please read Joni's testimony (http://www.forgottenword.org/FWM/joni.html).
Good points Sparrow.
Maybe it's still my influence from mainstream (or maybe I'm right anyway :happygrin:). There may be other spiritual applications/layers somehow, but I think this scripture "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)." is describing Jesus' physical return, when we are literally in His physical prescence...you know, the Great White Throne Judgment, the beginnings of the next Age, eventually leading up to God being All in All...that believers living at that time will not sleep...they will be resurrected into immortality without tasting of death - perhaps the only group that "it is appointed unto man once to die" doesn't really apply to. IMO, striving to "be good enough/holy enough, etc." to earn immortality without either physically dying or being in the "last trumpet sounding" group, well, I'll just say, I'm not so sure about.
That's just how I see it right now. Maybe I'll see something further later.
DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
IT HAS NO PURPOSE IN LIFE!
IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DESTROY!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH DEATH????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Jesus physically died. He "gave up the ghost". His spirit left his mortal flesh and went to be with His Father. I understand His destroying death as doing so in many ways spiritually, and ultimately in the flesh, due to the resurrecton into immortality. After physically dying (unless in the "last trump" group).
HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE WILLFULLY AND TOOK IT BACK UP!
NO ONE TOOK IT FROM HIM !!!!!!!!!!
AMEN AND AMEN!
No one's arguing that. Did you see I said "He gave up the ghost"? That still doesn't mean He didn't physically die. It details that He did, as I understand it.
YES, FOR 3 DAYS, AND THE ALARM CLOCK IS RINGING, IT'S MIDNIGHT! GOD'S DAY STARTS AT NIGHT!
So dear BServ. My time on this thread for now is short, as I refuse to argue (much :bigGrin:). I've said what I see for now. People are free to believe what they believe. God teaches us all.
Just a quick note before I go friend. Do you believe this physical body will never stop working; that you will never stop breathing and your spirit will "return to God Who gave it"? Clarifying as the discussion continues (and anyone else as well). Thanks.
P.S. Further clarifying my own beliefs. I do believe in "living holy" as He empowers us to be able to be obedient, as He gives us the faith to believe. I also believe part of that is living thankfully, and taking good care of these tents of flesh He has chosen within which to dwell - and that He does heal in a million ways, including miraculously as suits His will. I just think this body's mortal, and as Paul said, that to be absent from this body is to be present with Christ.
The scriptures promise a living covenant.
Yes, absolutely. What do you think that means? And that's the clock's ringing midnight?
If I responded to those 2 statements, I would say a "living covenant" would mean we are spiritually made alive in Christ, and that He will resurrect us to immortality. Secondly, that the clock may be ringing midnight, and if so, there will in fact be some living now who are immediately raised to immortality at His physical presence. Are you thinking something else/further than that?
You know all this Jab! Why do you now doubt the promise of your Father that in the past you so believed?
The last enemy is death. Jesus killed it!
We now walk in the fullness of life!
Please back up and read my edit, and I'm disappointed you judge me of unbelief based on each of our understandings. I'm trying to understand and clarify what yours are. I'm being very transparent and clear about what I believe.
1 Corinthians 15
is my hope and expectation.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 06:17:27 AM
You know all this Jab! Why do you now doubt the promise of your Father that in the past you so believed?
The last enemy is death. Jesus killed it!
We now walk in the fullness of life!
Yes,
spiritually, BServ,
and by
resurrection following physical death. Again, I'm not saying there aren't more spiritual applications/layers.
OK, I'm backing out of this discussion with you for now. Back to moderating.
I'm no one's Sunday School Teacher. Carry on...we're still buds, I'll just get out of this one for now. Easy does it, OK? The Spirit will lead us into all truth. I just personally think it's pieces at a time - step by step.
Jab, we do not need to die, Jesus did it for us!
The myriads of Himself come from within and without.
He transforms us spiritually and physically in our most basic of being to our uttermost!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 05:50:36 AM
DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
Death is merely a doorway to life. I truly believe that.
But we know that what is seen is temporary and what is unseen is eternal.
Death can be an enemy to those on this side of the grave.
But it can also be a friend.
It is both.
Depending on your perspective.
I've had both perspectives in my life.
At the same time, even.
NO Sparrow, the Lord says it is an enemy NOT a doorway!
We MUST BELIEVE the Word of God.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 06:54:44 AM
NO Sparrow, the Lord says it is an enemy NOT a doorway!
We MUST BELIEVE the Word of God.
HEB 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their
humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of
death--that is, the devil--
15 and free those who all their lives
were held in slavery by their fear
of death.I do not fear death.
Jesus has shown me by His death and ressurrection that we are no longer to fear.
Not that we WON'T die...but that death is no longer the enemy in our minds. We see that now in a spiritual sense because we see the "unseen". We know that while we are separated from loved ones who have died, we will be reunited. This is why Jesus told us not to grieve as those without hope. We have HOPE! Because of Jesus. Jesus conquered death. He has freed us from the slavery of the fear of death. Death does not have power over us any longer in the sense that we should not fear it. Not that it won't happen, but that we not fear. And at the resurrection, it will come full circle and death will be destroyed forever.
Well this is just the way I see it. "not all shall sleep" that's fine! I don't doubt that. But it doesn't say "ALL should NOT DIE!" it says "not all shall sleep".
2CO 1:9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this
happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the
dead.
10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us.
On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have
a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do
not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so
that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and
at home with the Lord.
Well this is just where I'm at over here on my path and how I see it.
Perhaps we are just seeing things from different perspectives is all.
Sparrow, amen. :thumbsup:
Jesus conqured death through a process: First he died. THEN he was resurrected.
That is the defeat of death. And now because he defeated and destroyed death, he holds the key. That is why, when we have attained the resurrection of the dead (I know people will read that and try to convince me that I already did, and use "the likeness" of the resurrection as proof :thumbdown:) Christ will resurrect us as well.
Death is the enemy. That's clear.
But less clear is how exactly it's the enemy...
a] Just simply being dead? -> For many death is a blessing. The sick and lonely to mention just two groups.
b] The fear of death as Sparrow mentioned?
c] Ageing. The body gets weaker and weaker. Often more sick on the path to old age. The path to death.
Points b and c can be combined with Sparrows view "a doorway" or "shall not sleep"
And when you step to the doorway for you personally the "last enemy" is defeated.
:2c:
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:48:31 AMhe holds the key.
Key. Gates. Etc.
That kind of wording certainly doesn't debunk "a doorway"
:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
Phillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.
Also, that word CONFORMABLE there, comes from a word that means having the same form as another, to be fashioned like (as in like unto His glorious body) and has a root part of MORPHOO, which some of you no doubt will recognize from metaMORPHOO, which means to be transformed or transfigured, or changed. We see it used in these passages:
Mt 17:2 - And was TRANSFIGURED before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
and here:
Ro 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
and here:
2Co 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
:cloud9: Notice that NONE of the above say a word about dying to attain anything, and also note the pattern Son, was shown to have this glorious body BEFORE HE DIED.
Now let's look at the next place we see that word conformed, which is here:
Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
:cloud9: Now continuing with where we left off in Phillipians:
Phillipians 3:11- If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
3:12 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
3:13 - Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
:cloud9: We were not apprehended so we could go peacefully to the grave. Those things Paul was forgetting that were BEHIND, were the tenets of the old covenant, which included the law of sin and DEATH. The reason we are not under the law of sin and death anymore is because we are supposed to be IN CHRIST, in whom there is NO DEATH.
3:14 - I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
:cloud9: The mark for the prize of the high calling which is in Christ Jesus, is the mind of Christ by which we are marked in our FOREHEADS, and which is typed and shadowed by the gold mitre which was as a band that went around the High Priest's forehead when he went in the Holy of Holies once on the day of atonement, and which read "Holiness Unto the Lord".
This is the exact opposite from the present ruler of THIS AGE (not a time measurement but a state of being), the carnal mind, the "Satan" who sits in the temple (know ye not ye are the temple of God?) declaring that he is God. No wonder also then, that to be carnally minded IS DEATH.
We are told to come boldly to the throne of grace, in this covenant. The throne is the place of authority of the King, which in type and shadow, was the ark of the covenant. Christ IS our ark of the covenant.
The thing about the Holy of Holies, was it was a type and shadowing of the 7th day reality which we can walk in NOW, and DO walk in now, if so be it we are IN CHRIST, who IS the 7th day, IS the resurrection and the life and IS "heaven". The dimensions of it were 10 X 10 X 10 = 1000, and it speaks of the realm of ruling and reigning with Him, and not from a "heaven" that we literally died to enter into.
The other thing I want to point out, is the High Priest had to walk in there barefoot, which speaks of a people whose conversation is in "heaven" as Paul said, but whose feet are on the EARTH.
3:15- Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, BE THUS MINDED: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
:cloud9: Perfection is NOT a character trait, but rather a state of being found IN CHRIST. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2009, 12:33:57 PM
Death is the enemy. That's clear.
But less clear is how exactly it's the enemy...
a] Just simply being dead? -> For many death is a blessing. The sick and lonely to mention just two groups.
b] The fear of death as Sparrow mentioned?
c] Ageing. The body gets weaker and weaker. Often more sick on the path to old age. The path to death.
Points b and c can be combined with Sparrows view "a doorway" or "shall not sleep"
And when you step to the doorway for you personally the "last enemy" is defeated.
:2c:
Hi! WhiteWings
Hebrews 2:14-15 says that by His death Jesus delivered all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. Jesus did this by de-throning the devil.
Jesus said about the resurrection of the
inner man: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live", (John 5.25).
But to a Christian whose inner man is united with God's Spirit, it still applies that it is appointed to man to die once. The time comes when the spirit of life, which also keeps natural life, will no longer be able to resist the destructive powers of death. Then the moment has come when the inner man is separated from the body. Man then 'gives up the ghost'.
However, the inner man remains in the body of Christ, for all who have risen in soul and spirit and persevere until the end will not die but live for evermore. Man is immortal as far as his soul and spirit are concerned, but his body will pass away. The Lord said about the inner man: "He who believes in me shall never die".
Today, for instance, there are some who are busy over-emphasizing physical healing to the point that being without sickness becomes more important then being without sin. This is nothing to be amazed about, for the simple reason that health is more easily visible than spiritual maturity.
Does this mean that healing of the body is no longer important? The answer is that we have our treasure in an earthen vessel. The vessel preserves the treasure. The container may be damaged or grow old, wear and tear may leave it chipped, but only when it cracks will it lose its contents. Body and soul are closely related. We pray for physical healing when the illness interferes with the Kingdom of God.
The time will come when the spiritual man is resurrected with an immortal and imperishable body. This will be the completion of the total resurrection. Then the resurrected body will be perfectly controlled by the laws of the Spirit. Then the sons of God will be conformed to the image of the Son, and function accordingly. Then they will be perfect and fit to exercise God's power in the invisible and visible worlds. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the guarantee of this glory!
:cloud9: I think it's important here to continue on with what we are supposed to be attaining, so I'm going to take off on the last verse in my previous post and add some more thoughts. It was:
Phillipians 3:15 - Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, BE THUS MINDED: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
:cloud9: Let's examine what it means to be perfect, which I said in my previous post, is NOT a character trait, but a state of being IN CHRIST.
The Greek word used is telioo, which means:
1. to make perfect, complete (also to consecrate)
1. to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
2. to complete (perfect)
1. add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing FULL
2. to be found perfect
3. to bring to the end (goal) proposed
4. to accomplish
1. bring to a close or fulfillment BY EVENT
1. of the prophecies of the scriptures
:cloud9:.........AND; has a root word in it which also means to be mature, full grown, of adult age, ie. Sons of God, capable of bringing up Seed unto Him. I capped certain words in the meaning here for emphasis.
Now let's look at where we see these:
Lu 13:32 - And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be PERFECTED.
:cloud9: The first thing we need to know here, is that it has been 2 days or 2000 roughly since Christ, which, since God says a day is like a thousand years, means we are in the dawning of the 3rd day, and according to the Lord's own mouth, is the day of His perfection or completeness.
Now we know that He cannot be talking about Himself needing this as He was already perfected, so is talking about the perfection or completeness that is coming to His body in this day (which is accomplished by coming into COMPLETE union with the Head, which is Christ).
And the thing is, since this "day" of no part darkness IS CHRIST, which is Spirit, this same "day" was available to 1st century Christians, as is available to us now because it "overlaps" TIME, making the death that is contained in time (something has to die to create time, else there is nothing but life forever more), OF NONE EFFECT.
The other thing we need to know, is that this 3rd day is as the 7th day also, as the tabernacle pattern shows roughly 4000 years or 4 days from Adam to Jesus. So while it is the 3rd day since Christ, it is also the 7th day, which marks it as a SABBATH REST.
So when He was telling 1st century Christians to enter in His REST, His promised "land" of which the Israelite's was only a type and shadow, He was speaking of entering INTO CHRIST, the 7th day of no part darkness Genesis speaks of.
So how is the perfection process started by entering into Christ? Or another way to put it adding the meanings listed above is, what EVENT began to render us FULL?
Acts 2:4 - And they were all FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Mt 5:6 - Blessed are they which do hunger (bread/Word) and thirst (wine/Spirit) after righteousness: for they shall be FILLED.
Col. 2:9 - For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
John 1:6 And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace
:cloud9: This event, is what begins the sanctification process, which is literally that which is within, Christ in you, the hope of the glory (or put another way, the hope of your glorified body), becoming the IMMORTALITY that swallows up your MORTALITY.
We are saved, we are being saved and we shall be saved. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 04:30:48 PM
:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING.
I want to add: And by resurrection.
But that's not what that 'door' is about.
For those that stay behind the person looks dead. That's isn't true because the person is alive at the other side of the door.
I have to add that for me death is not about my body but my mind.
"Me" is my mind and personality.
:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...
Simply, does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing?
I think all believe in a resurrection, all believe in continuing life due to Jesus' gift (at some point, whether you believe in "soul sleep" for awhile, or instantly "alive" with the Lord); whichever, I don't believe any in this particular discussion believe in total annihilation, so that's not the question I'm asking. IMO, there are multiple ways to describe being made alive in Christ, different layers ot it. But clarifying, trying to make sure what people are saying.
It's a simple question. Does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing? It's a yes or no question. There's already been an amount of other expositions. With this question established, maybe other things will appear to "make more sense". I can buy a lot of other things that have been said, if put in proper perspective/rightly divided. But I'm afraid some of this isn't being made clear based on the lack of clarity of the bolded question.
Please don't make me need to do a poll on this. Poll numbers have been sliding pretty badly lately :bigGrin:.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 05:44:08 PM
:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...
Card, are you specifically talking of a SPIRITUAL resurrection then - the one while still in the body? Do you specifically believe this
body of flesh will one day stop breathing, i.e., die? All the aforementioned is what I personally believe.
It seems to me that some are confusing the terms physical and spiritual, and I think your answer to that question would help clarify this (or not :laughing7:). Thanks, James.
Quote from: jabcat on September 04, 2009, 06:58:30 PM
It's a simple question. Does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing? It's a yes or no question.
I think everyone stops breathing.
But.... sorry jabcat...if the body stops breathing because the spirit/mind is on the other side of the door things get more muddy.
As I wrote above: "Me" is my mind and personality.
So that would mean I won't stop breathing but my body does.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--1Cor 15
"be changed"
G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
al-las'-so
From G243; to make different: - change.
John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 04:30:48 PM
:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
I agree, nobody defeats death simply by dying.
Acts 2:23-29
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also
my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave
my soul in (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that
he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
I repeat, I never said that death is destroyed by dying. I said that resurrection destroys death, and that is proved by the likeness of the resurrection. What destroys our sinful flesh, the resurrected life with in us. That likeness sheds light on the fact that on the third day, Jesus was "loosed from the pains of death." It isn't that Jesus didn't die. He did die for our sins. It was that on the third day, he was raised and loosed from death.
This gave hope to David, who IS both DEAD and BURIED. This of course conforms with Hebrews 11 which states that the patriarchs died WITHOUT receiving the promise (which was Christ by the Spirit) that they WOULD NOT BE PERFECTED WITHOUT US.
Christ was clear that on the THIRD DAY he would be perfected, and Paul was also clear that he was not perfected either since he had not attained the resurrection of the dead. He certainly attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection, but until flesh and blood is cast away, he knew he was not perfected.
QuotePhillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.
Actually that is exactly what he says.
Phillipians 3:10-16
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow,
to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers,
I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
All of us who are mature
should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Our transformation from being the earthly man, to being conformed unto the Heavenly man REQUIRES a casting away of the flesh because it cannot receive heavenly things. In our flesh is no good thing, as Scripture says (Romans 7). The conforming to Christ's death is a PROCESS.
This process STARTS with what the Bible calls "the likeness of" Christ's resurrection. That is when the conforming process begins while we are alive and believe on Christ (not to "die in the aion"). Paul received that gift, the Holy Spirit. Yet he knew it was only the beginning.
As John said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." The reason we have sin is due to the body of this death. Now, we have been delivered of this body in our minds in the sense that we need not walk in slavery to it. However we still groan in this tent to be clothed of immortality and be delivered completely.
This is why Paul said "I am not already perfect" and why he said that he had not already attained the resurrection from the dead. The likeness of the resurrection (receiving the Holy Spirit) sheds light on the resurrection itself. The life of Christ resurrects us from death in sin. What does the resurrection do? Delivers us from death. If you don't die, you don't need resurrection. If Paul had already died, he didn't need to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD.
To attain the resurrection from the dead, one must BE DEAD. Otherwise it would be called "the resurrection of the already living." Paul knew that except a seed go into the earth and die, resurrection will not happen.
The full process of being conformed to Christ's death goes like this:
1) We are dead in sin even as we are animated and conscious
2) We receive the Holy Spirit and attain the likeness of Christ's resurrection delivering us from the body of death
3) We still have sin even though we now do not abide in it because we still have a body which by its own nature lusts against the spirit
4) To be perfected we will attain the resurrection of the dead, by going into the earth as a seed, and being raised in power....no more flesh
That is the full process and the conforming STARTS with the receiving of the Spirit and is COMPLETED at perfection through the resurrection of (not the already living) the dead.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.
Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.
I am one that believes that there is a generation that will experience this mystery. I believe there is a day coming that spiritual will merge with and overtake natural, perfecting death, removing the curse. Death is not absence of life as much as it is a separation. Adam's death was a separation from the spirit realm, which is invisible to this natural realm. It's only seen by faith.
But I do believe there will be a time when all things are restored to their original state, which for me is, back to a predominantly spiritual state.
We can't comprehend with our natural thinking what that will be like because we have no original template to refer back to other than before the fall of Adam. But I do believe that flesh follows spirit. What is complete in the spirit, will also be complete in the flesh. As Card was saying, this 7th day (Sabbath Day mentality) is emerging in us and in the world because not only is it the 7th Day we're experiencing, but the 3rd Day of Resurrection . . .both are the person of Christ.
Quote from: Nathan on September 04, 2009, 07:32:56 PM
I am one that believes that there is a generation that will experience this mystery. I believe there is a day coming that spiritual will merge with and overtake natural, perfecting death, removing the curse. Death is not absence of life as much as it is a separation.
Why isn't it both. Of course death IS the absence of life, and that is what makes it death, whether it be mortality or separation from God through evil works.
The reason it's not both is because you can be living but still be dead.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:32:24 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.
Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.
Yes, I agree. Now the question is when does this happen?
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,--Mat 27
Quote from: Nathan on September 04, 2009, 07:42:03 PM
The reason it's not both is because you can be living but still be dead.
Yes you can be living and dead, and also dead and dead.
"Let the dead bury the dead."
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:32:24 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.
Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.
Yes, I agree. Now the question is when does this happen?
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
--Mat 27
It does not say that they were raised to immortality.
"We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died"This was written AFTER the incident you quoted. David is both dead and buried, his flesh resting in hope because his soul will not be left in the grave. He will be perfected with us.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:49:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:32:24 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.
Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.
Yes, I agree. Now the question is when does this happen?
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
--Mat 27
It does not say that they were raised to immortality.
"We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died"
This was written AFTER the incident you quoted.
um...He did return. He went to the Father and returned...
The firstfruits are not the whole harvest...
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
He will return again to reveal himself to the world. His perfected saints with him.
As I said, Paul received the Spirit from the risen Christ, yet he knew he had not yet attained the resurrection of the dead. As it bears repeating, what Paul received was the likeness of the resurrection. Which is why he spoke about the future..
Still staring up at the clouds are we??
I've been involved with a WONDERFUL conversation on my face book concerning the question "If we believe that Jesus is still returning, then did the angels lie to those standing there watching Jesus leave?
Perhaps you could give your insigts to this as well here?
Quote from: Nathan on September 04, 2009, 08:01:00 PM
Still staring up at the clouds are we??
I've been involved with a WONDERFUL conversation on my face book concerning the question "If we believe that Jesus is still returning, then did the angels lie to those standing there watching Jesus leave?
Perhaps you could give your insigts to this as well here?
Nope not staring up at the clouds. Don't let your assumptions about what I believe run wild.
Jesus is ALWAYS returning in the sense that he is always with us through the "foretaste of future glory" the Spirit. However, upon the perfecting of his saints, he will have the perfected sons of his Father receive creation into their glorious liberty.
I never said Jesus would be returning in literal clouds from above did I?
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you
is this literal??
most would agree, no
so "flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God"
is that literal??
Well since we all agree that we will not be living in this mortal body forever, I don't see how it being literal would affect things, do you?
Can corruption inherit incorruption? Was Jesus perfected on the third day? Will the earthly man bear the image of the heavenly man?
Drinking Christ's flesh is Spiritual.
Being raised to immortality is also Spiritual.
NONE of it has to do with the flesh. I never said we would be raised with a new kind of flesh. Flesh has nothing to do with it. Our immortality will be completed in the Spirit. I never said it would all be visible to the earthly eye.
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
If we die so easily, why do 'they' have to work so hard to kill us--
with their phoney wars, tainted vaccines, poisoned food, foul air, phoney medicine, chemo-'therapy,' radiation, drugs, and on and on and on...
That's a rhetorical question...
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:14:31 PM
Well since we all agree that we will not be living in this mortal body forever, I don't see how it being literal would affect things, do you?
Can corruption inherit incorruption? Was Jesus perfected on the third day? Will the earthly man bear the image of the heavenly man?
Drinking Christ's flesh is Spiritual.
Being raised to immortality is also Spiritual.
NONE of it has to do with the flesh. I never said we would be raised with a new kind of flesh. Flesh has nothing to do with it. Our immortality will be completed in the Spirit. I never said it would all be visible to the earthly eye.
I thot u were referring to "flesh and blood" as literal "flesh and blood".
So that before a resurrection can occur, then "literal flesh and blood" has to be done away with.
Am i understanding u correctly??
and if so; then it seems to me you are mixing literal with spiritual??
probably just me, not understanding what u are saying.
Aren't u saying that literal "flesh and blood" death, has to occur before completed resurrection?
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:18:59 PM
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
Yes, but do we then have to literally die on a cross too??
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:22:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:18:59 PM
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
Yes, but do we then have to literally die on a cross too??
But how do you know he literally died if we can also speak about death in figurative terms? And how do you know he was literally raised if we can speak about resurrection in figurative terms?
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:22:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:18:59 PM
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
Yes, but do we then have to literally die on a cross too??
No. He did all that work for us.
We just have to pick up our cross and follow him.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:24:40 PM
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:22:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:18:59 PM
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
Yes, but do we then have to literally die on a cross too??
But how do you know he literally died if we can also speak about death in figurative terms? And how do you know he was literally raised if we can speak about resurrection in figurative terms?
?? i know u are trying to make a point with this question, but i'm not sure what u mean.
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:21:26 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:14:31 PM
Well since we all agree that we will not be living in this mortal body forever, I don't see how it being literal would affect things, do you?
Can corruption inherit incorruption? Was Jesus perfected on the third day? Will the earthly man bear the image of the heavenly man?
Drinking Christ's flesh is Spiritual.
Being raised to immortality is also Spiritual.
NONE of it has to do with the flesh. I never said we would be raised with a new kind of flesh. Flesh has nothing to do with it. Our immortality will be completed in the Spirit. I never said it would all be visible to the earthly eye.
I thot u were referring to "flesh and blood" as literal "flesh and blood".
So that before a resurrection can occur, then "literal flesh and blood" has to be done away with.
Am i understanding u correctly??
and if so; then it seems to me you are mixing literal with spiritual??
What I am saying is that there is what is called a LIKENESS of the resurrection, then there is called "the resurrection of the dead."
We are fitting into the likeness of Christ's resurrection in that our minds are being set free from sin.
What I am saying about flesh and blood is that NEITHER flesh-mindedness OR literal flesh can inherit the kingdom of God. I can determine what is literal and figurative from the context.
But since we all agree that our mortal bodies will be done away with, I don't see the problem in understanding that "flesh and blood" not inheriting the Kingdom can be both literal and figurative according to the full council of the NT, which proves that our literal flesh is earthly and that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
The context of "bearing the likeness of the heavenly man" is not limited to either figurative flesh (flesh mindedness) OR literal flesh. We will bear the likeness of the heavenly man IN ALL WAYS.
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:24:40 PM
Quote from: Zeek on September 04, 2009, 08:22:19 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:18:59 PM
Zeek, was Jesus literally raised from the dead? How do we know that he was literally raised if we can also speak of resurrection in figurative terms?
Yes, but do we then have to literally die on a cross too??
But how do you know he literally died if we can also speak about death in figurative terms? And how do you know he was literally raised if we can speak about resurrection in figurative terms?
?? i know u are trying to make a point with this question, but i'm not sure what u mean.
What I mean is this. You said that Christ was referring figuratively to drinking his blood and eating his flesh. So how can we be sure that "flesh and blood" is not figurative elsewhere? At the same time, with the same logic, if resurrection is spoken of figuratively, then how do we know that Christ was raised literally? What I am saying is, according to that logic, how do we know ANYTHING is literal?
Here is how I know:
The Bible tells us that fleshy things do not save people from sin. Therefore, I can determine that Christ has no interest in having us literally drink his actual literal flesh.
However, because I know we will bear the image of the heavenly man without exception provided, I can tell that BOTH our minds AND our mortal flesh will be changed to spritual minds and spiritual bodies (ie not fleshy bodies).
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Who was created on the 8th day? Oh yes, that would be Adam.
QuoteI can tell that BOTH our minds AND our mortal flesh will be changed to spritual minds and spiritual bodies (ie not fleshy bodies).
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: --John 20
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Who was created on the 8th day? Oh yes, that would be Adam.
Those who are born must also grow to maturity.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Who was created on the 8th day? Oh yes, that would be Adam.
Those who are born must also grow to maturity.
Yes, and then what will they look like?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:48:49 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Who was created on the 8th day? Oh yes, that would be Adam.
Those who are born must also grow to maturity.
Yes, and then what will they look like?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And Jesus was proving something to Timothy. If you need to see flesh and blood, blessed are those who believe without seeing.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:55:03 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:48:49 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Quoteand that we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The beginning and the end...
There is a beginning to our salvation... to the end. Christ is both. First to be saved from sin, and also to be delivered from the flesh entire: mortal putting on immortality.
Who was created on the 8th day? Oh yes, that would be Adam.
Those who are born must also grow to maturity.
Yes, and then what will they look like?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And Jesus was proving something to Timothy. If you need to see flesh and blood, blessed are those who believe without seeing.
Yes, but they all saw him, and witnessed to it, and we shall be like him.
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Will_We_Be_Resurrected_With_Physical_Bodies.php
Hi L____,
Thank you for your question.
You ask, "was Christ resurrected in a spiritual body, and can you go into more detail and cite some scripture? Also, please comment on Luke 24."
I will be happy to do that for you.
Here is the foundational scripture for the fact that a resurrected body is not a natural body:
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
So there it is plain and simple: "It is raised a spiritual body...made a quickening spirit." Now all we have to ask and answer is; what are the characteristics of a spiritual body? Can a spiritual body be seen? Can it be handled? Or is a spiritual body invisible like the wind which we cannot see or feel? What say the scriptures? What is Christ's own answer to this question?
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [physically] and of the Spirit[spiritually], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit .
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
"So is every one that is born of the Spirit... you can hear the sound of him but you cannot tell where he came from or where he goes." That is characteristic of a spiritual body. But there is another characteristic of a spiritual body which Christ did not mention here to Nicodemus, but which is demonstrated on many occasions after His resurrection. That characteristic is the fact that a spiritual body can manifest itself in many forms which appear to be "flesh and bone" which can actually eat food and be handled by those around it. But then when it wants or needs to it can again become what it is:
[like] the wind [which] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Those who read that Christ said "A spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see I have," are forgetting that "flesh...cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Truth to these folks is defined as the subtraction instead of the "sum of God's Word."
Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.
So we will never arrive at the Truth by declaring that one part of God's Word is not true. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" is true!
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Now if 1 Cor. 15:50 is true, then Christ's appearance as flesh and bone after His resurrection must have been a temporary condition for the sake of the apostles' lack of faith. And as it turns out this is exactly what our Savior tells us is the case:
John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe .
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This entire story is not for the purpose of showing us that we will be given visible bodies. It is rather for the exact opposite: "Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed."
This truth is demonstrated by the fact that Christ appeared in four different forms after His resurrection. One of those forms just happened to be the one you refer to in Luke 24.
The first form in which Christ appeared was that of the gardener at the tomb of Christ:
John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
The second time Jesus appeared "in another form." This took place the same day that He appeared to Mary as a gardener:
Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Mark 16:13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
"Another form" shows us that Christ appeared in several forms. Here is that same story in much more revealing detail:
Luke 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
Luke 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Luke 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
Luke 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:22 ...certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; ["that same day"-verse 13]
Luke 24:23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
Luke 24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Luke 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Luke 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
"They arose the same hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them" is the verse which precedes the verses you are asking about. This form, as Himself, is then the third form in which Jesus appears. In this particular form, He appears with his crucifixion wounds still intact. If the point of this story is that we are raised with a physical body; why is Christ still bearing His wounds which are not seen in any of His other appearances? Here is the story of Christ's appearance in His third form. Here is the story about which you inquire. It take place just as the men from Emmaus are finishing relating to the disciples that Jesus had appeared to them in "another form" (Mark 16:12).
Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luke 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luke 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luke 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Being Spirit, Christ simply materializes in a locked room as a hungry "flesh and bone" person whom Thomas could handle.
"A spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have" sounds as if Christ is denying what He Himself had affirmed to Nicodemas concerning being:
[like] the wind [which] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Was Christ not a resurrected body? Was He yet a natural body? No, He was not a natural body! And yes, He was a resurrected spiritual body. When we see only Luke 24:39...
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
...to the exclusion of John 3:8...
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
...and 1 Cor. 15: 44 and 45...
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
...and verse 50...
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
...we are missing the point. This is not speculation. This is true for every resurrected body:
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
When we forget these many verses which tell us that we will all be changed from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit, from which all the things which are seen are made, we are placed in the unenviable position of pitting one verse of God's word against a dozen other verses of God's word.
2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Christ's fourth form of appearing to His disciples is related to us in the gospel of John:
John 21:1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
John 21:2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the [sons] of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
John 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. [Sounds just like Mary in the garden]
John 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt [his] fisher's coat [unto him], (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
John 21:8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
John 21:9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
John 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
John 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
"They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes."
John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord..."
Two hundred cubits is just three hundred feet. Who does not recognize their own teacher's voice from a distance of three hundred feet? "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said 'It is the Lord," not because he recognized the voice, but because "they cast therefore and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes."
And then we are even told "And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. If Christ were standing there as Himself with His wounds still intact, then the words "no man durst ask Him, Who are you?" would be meaningless.
I hope this helps you to see that if indeed Christ were seen ("a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have") then "the things which are seen are temporal." Christ was therefore simply temporarily appearing to be "in another form" as flesh and bone, and we are specifically told why He appeared in this particular form:
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Always remember this verse when considering the "things of the spirit."
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
So it was necessary that Christ first appear as "the things that are made."But it is now necessary that we learn from His admonition to His disciples who had seen His crucifixion and burial:
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Quote from: jabcat on September 04, 2009, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 05:44:08 PM
:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...
Card, are you specifically talking of a SPIRITUAL resurrection then - the one while still in the body? Do you specifically believe this body of flesh will one day stop breathing, i.e., die? All the aforementioned is what I personally believe.
It seems to me that some are confusing the terms physical and spiritual, and I think your answer to that question would help clarify this (or not :laughing7:). Thanks, James.
:cloud9: I specifically believe that He is the resurrection and the life, and that if we believe that we'll never die, as He told the Samaritan woman. I also believe that this mortality is going to be swallowed up of immortality, if we believe the above. Blessings....
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 09:25:28 PM
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
The folly:
John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side,
I will not believe.
The answer according to the folly:
John 20:27-29
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas,
because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Why:
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
But for those who do not need to see:
1 Cor 15:44-45
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
He will return again to reveal himself to the world. His perfected saints with him.
As I said, Paul received the Spirit from the risen Christ, yet he knew he had not yet attained the resurrection of the dead. As it bears repeating, what Paul received was the likeness of the resurrection. Which is why he spoke about the future..
The reason I "assumed" what I assumed was because your statement is implying a future event, which for me isn't yet to come, but already has come. That's why I commented about still staring at the clouds. Your comments seem to indicate that Christ is coming in the future to reveal himself to the world . . .and perfected saints with him . . .
I'm seeing that he's already come to us and as we enter into that ascended place "now", we join in with those who've gone on before us. It's not the traditional coming of the Lord the church preaches about where it's a physical return and a physical revealing to an outer world. But it's an inner return to my inner man, revealing truth to the worldliness "in" me.
Sorry for the offense.
you have conflated physicality with future events. In the future God will be all in all, when comes the end. That something will happen in the future does not mean a PHYSICAL understanding of it. That was the assumption you made. There is nothing wrong with saying something will happen in the future and that DOES NOT indicate a physical expectation.
No offense was taken bro, I just wanted that to be clear. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 09:14:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on September 04, 2009, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 05:44:08 PM
:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...
Card, are you specifically talking of a SPIRITUAL resurrection then - the one while still in the body? Do you specifically believe this body of flesh will one day stop breathing, i.e., die? All the aforementioned is what I personally believe.
It seems to me that some are confusing the terms physical and spiritual, and I think your answer to that question would help clarify this (or not :laughing7:). Thanks, James.
:cloud9: I specifically believe that He is the resurrection and the life, and that if we believe that we'll never die, as He told the Samaritan woman. I also believe that this mortality is going to be swallowed up of immortality, if we believe the above. Blessings....
Death will be destroyed in the end, regardless of what man believes. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 07:27:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2009, 04:30:48 PM
:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
I agree, nobody defeats death simply by dying.
Acts 2:23-29
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
I repeat, I never said that death is destroyed by dying. I said that resurrection destroys death, and that is proved by the likeness of the resurrection. What destroys our sinful flesh, the resurrected life with in us. That likeness sheds light on the fact that on the third day, Jesus was "loosed from the pains of death." It isn't that Jesus didn't die. He did die for our sins. It was that on the third day, he was raised and loosed from death.
This gave hope to David, who IS both DEAD and BURIED. This of course conforms with Hebrews 11 which states that the patriarchs died WITHOUT receiving the promise (which was Christ by the Spirit) that they WOULD NOT BE PERFECTED WITHOUT US.
Christ was clear that on the THIRD DAY he would be perfected, and Paul was also clear that he was not perfected either since he had not attained the resurrection of the dead. He certainly attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection, but until flesh and blood is cast away, he knew he was not perfected.
QuotePhillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.
Actually that is exactly what he says.
Phillipians 3:10-16
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Our transformation from being the earthly man, to being conformed unto the Heavenly man REQUIRES a casting away of the flesh because it cannot receive heavenly things. In our flesh is no good thing, as Scripture says (Romans 7). The conforming to Christ's death is a PROCESS.
This process STARTS with what the Bible calls "the likeness of" Christ's resurrection. That is when the conforming process begins while we are alive and believe on Christ (not to "die in the aion"). Paul received that gift, the Holy Spirit. Yet he knew it was only the beginning.
As John said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." The reason we have sin is due to the body of this death. Now, we have been delivered of this body in our minds in the sense that we need not walk in slavery to it. However we still groan in this tent to be clothed of immortality and be delivered completely.
This is why Paul said "I am not already perfect" and why he said that he had not already attained the resurrection from the dead. The likeness of the resurrection (receiving the Holy Spirit) sheds light on the resurrection itself. The life of Christ resurrects us from death in sin. What does the resurrection do? Delivers us from death. If you don't die, you don't need resurrection. If Paul had already died, he didn't need to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD.
To attain the resurrection from the dead, one must BE DEAD. Otherwise it would be called "the resurrection of the already living." Paul knew that except a seed go into the earth and die, resurrection will not happen.
The full process of being conformed to Christ's death goes like this:
1) We are dead in sin even as we are animated and conscious
2) We receive the Holy Spirit and attain the likeness of Christ's resurrection delivering us from the body of death
3) We still have sin even though we now do not abide in it because we still have a body which by its own nature lusts against the spirit
4) To be perfected we will attain the resurrection of the dead, by going into the earth as a seed, and being raised in power....no more flesh
That is the full process and the conforming STARTS with the receiving of the Spirit and is COMPLETED at perfection through the resurrection of (not the already living) the dead.
:cloud9: Hi Seth.........one problem with that........if Paul was talking about literally dying to attain, would it not have been OBVIOUS and redundant to say to all those seeing him standing there in shoe leather in front of them that he had not attained yet? :winkgrin: He also said, "to reckon yourselves dead." Did he mean that literally, so they could "attain"?
If literal death to attain a resurrection was the best this covenant had to offer, then it would not be a BETTER covenant seeing how Elijah and Enoch didn't see death, and He would be a respecter of persons, to boot.
Also; when asked about divorce, the Lord told them that because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses allowed a bill of divorcement. Let me rephrase that according to what the words there mean. Hardness of heart means, "dull of hearing". So when we are dull of hearing what the Spirit has to say, "Moses", the letter understanding alone, will allow us to put away our "wife/flesh" = DIE.
Additionally, in Deut.7 the Israelites, our type and shadow people, were told that if they obeyed Him that He would put none of the curses of the Egyptians on them. Tenth curse; the death of the firstborn = first born of the FLESH (which makes it your firstborn), then of the Spirit.
Notice that it is the 10TH curse.....a tenth is a tithe. We are told to make ourselves a LIVING sacrifice on the "altar", ie. reckon ourselves dead, for the purpose of attaining the resurrection while still in the body (ie. LIVING). Blessings....
QuoteHi Seth.........one problem with that........if Paul was talking about literally dying to attain, would it not have been OBVIOUS and redundant to say to all those seeing him standing there in shoe leather in front of them that he had not attained yet? He also said, "to reckon yourselves dead." Did he mean that literally, so they could "attain"?
Hi Card, peace and blessings to you. What he meant was this: That recieving the Holy Spirit is an attaining. Paul said that whatever you have attained, be so minded. We have attained the likeness of Christ's resurrection. Even so, Paul, RECOKING himself dead according to attaining the Spirit unto growth and perfect, knew that he was not perfected yet. He had not yet attained the resurrection of the dead.
What that means is that salvation from the flesh is as much two fold as as it was with Christ:
1) To be raised in the likeness of the resurrection, which is to be set free from abiding in sin. That is how we reckon ourselves dead.
2) To attain the resurrection of the dead (even though #1 is realized). That means that recieving the foretaste of future glory is NOT the resurrection of the dead. Therefore AS our minds were set free, we also shall be set free from mortality even as we now groan in this tent.
Paul did not say he hoped to attain the resurrection of the already living. So, because EVERYTHING he wrote concerning recieving the Spirit can be applied to Paul, that cancels out text-proofs of salvation from sin and receiving the Holy Spirit as mortals, as proofs also that we have already attained the resurrection.
In other words: since resurrection destroys death, Paul will attain the resurrection OF the dead, because he will be dead and then resurrected FROM the dead, DESPITE the scriptures which speak of a metaphoric resurrection from sin.
QuoteLet God be true and every man a liar.
have you ever considered Seth, That This verse speaks after MAN, born of flesh , that which enmity, therefore carnally dead?
ALL liars are Cast into the LOF...tis the place for all flesh for mine. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 09:34:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 09:25:28 PM
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
The folly:
John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
The answer according to the folly:
John 20:27-29
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Why:
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
But for those who do not need to see:
1 Cor 15:44-45
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
There is a natural body [carnal] and a spiritual body [spiritual].
The last Adam was made a quickening spirit. I have looked at that scripture a long time. Quickening means to make alive.
"quickening"G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): -
make alive, give life, quicken.
Wow --so the second Adam [which we will be, like our brother] is a quickening spirit. But what does that spirit quicken? How about--his own body?
John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[that]
"I might take" [it again]
G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses;
to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or
active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).
Seen that word before anywhere?
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --John 1
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 10:15:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 04, 2009, 09:34:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2009, 09:25:28 PM
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
The folly:
John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
The answer according to the folly:
John 20:27-29
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Why:
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
But for those who do not need to see:
1 Cor 15:44-45
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
There is a natural body [carnal] and a spiritual body [spiritual].
The last Adam was made a quickening spirit. I have looked at that scripture a long time. Quickening means to make alive.
"quickening"
G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
Wow --so the second Adam [which we will be, like our brother] is a quickening spirit. But what does that spirit quicken? How about--his own body?
Quickening Spirit does not mean to be raised a natural body. Quickening means to give life. Our bodies ARE CHANGED from natural to spiritual according to resurrection.
Sown natural, RAISED spiritual.
We are not taking natural bodies with us. We are being changed over from natural to spiritual.
Quote from: Taffy on September 04, 2009, 10:03:17 PM
QuoteLet God be true and every man a liar.
have you ever considered Seth, That This verse speaks after MAN, born of flesh , that which enmity, therefore carnally dead?
Absolutely.
QuoteQuickening Spirit does not mean to be raised a natural body. Quickening means to give life. Our bodies ARE CHANGED from natural to spiritual according to resurrection.
Sown natural, RAISED spiritual.
We are not taking natural bodies with us. We are being changed over from natural to spiritual.
No one said anything about being raised a natural body. The natural body is changed. That's what the scripture says, we all shall be changed. This could happen in any way--on the cellular level, dna, whatever....
Now wait--the spiritual body is raised out of the natural body, right? It's not coming out of nowhere. Why do you need a natural body to raise up a spiritual body?
When Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, isn't he talking about spiritually dead in the first case? The natural body, then, is spiritually dead.
But, that's our starting point, not where we end up.
What does a natural body look like? Or a spiritual body? Jesus has shown us both, hasn't he?
Thomas touched him. I heard what you had to say about that--that it was essentially a 'magic trick.' But, that's not what is going on there.
What does it mean to be a quickening spirit? What does it mean to be a spirit that can give life? Give life to what? A natural body which is dead?
This is not a spirit which is made alive--this is a spirit which makes alive.
Life works against death. It is the only thing in the universe that works against death and decay. And, what is our Lord, if not Life? If we have him, do we not also have the resurrection and the life? Do we not also have the quickening spirit? And, what does that spirit quicken?
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
QuoteNow wait--the spiritual body is raised out of the natural body, right?
No the Spiritual body is not raised OUT of the natural, rather it comes from heaven. It replaces the natural which is what the change from natural to spiritual is.
QuoteWhen Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, isn't he talking about spiritually dead in the first case? The natural body, then, is spiritually dead.
No he is talking about the carnally minded burying the mortally sleeping.
QuoteWhat does a natural body look like? Or a spiritual body? Jesus has shown us both, hasn't he?
No he has shown us a Spiritual body in CONTRAST to a natural body which is able to answer a fool according to his folly.
The Bible says that to be raised in a spiritual body is to be raised in power. Would that include the power to appear MADE in order to bring understanding of that which is invisible? Of course.
Christ is shown to have been raised Spiritual IN CONTRAST to natural, and we know it is because there is an earthly body and a spiritual body. Where does Paul say the Spiritual body is? In heaven. Those bodies REPLACE our bodies, hence the change.
The Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural. When the spirit raises the dead it shows that the dead body has no spirit. Jesus gave up his spirit and died and remained dead for three days until God's spirit brought him back to life so that Christ could raise himself up and walk.
It just so happens that Spiritual bodies have the power to appear flesh so that the faithless can understand the invisible.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 05:50:36 AM
DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
IT HAS NO PURPOSE IN LIFE!
IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DESTROY!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH DEATH??????????????????????????????
Amen, when Universalists cherish death as much as life, that's when I jump off the bandwaggon and say I'm not a Universalist 'cause my Bible calls it the enemy of my soul, of my God, the enemy of all I am, of all I've loved or ever will love, et. al. Death is the enemy that all Christians are called to exercise their faith in cultivating the Written Word with and abolish alongside their Champion, Head, and Lord. Death isn't cute and it's not unchallengeable because of what Christ has accomplished in the New Birth. I didn't even know this thread was going on when I posted to facebook last night:
"Death is optional, irresponsible, unnecessary, and completely voluntary."
QuoteThe Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.
But, he says it is.
We're talking farmer language, here.
The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.
No squash seed, no squash.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. --1 Cor 15
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 12:12:53 AM
QuoteThe Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.
But, he says it is.
We're talking farmer language, here.
The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.
No squash seed, no squash.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
--1 Cor 15
A Spiritual body is not raised out of the NATURAL body. Jesus Christ was in the EARTH as a dead seed. The spiritual body FROM HEAVEN (aka NOT from within the natural body) was given to him to replace the natural body, so that he was able to raise himself out of the earth.
Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:15:17 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 12:12:53 AM
QuoteThe Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.
But, he says it is.
We're talking farmer language, here.
The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.
No squash seed, no squash.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
--1 Cor 15
A Spiritual body is not raised out of the NATURAL body. Jesus Christ was in the EARTH as a dead seed. The spiritual body FROM HEAVEN (aka NOT from within the natural body) was given to him to replace the natural body, so that he was able to raise himself out of the earth.
well...Let me put it this way. Without a natural body, would anything have been raised?
No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.
The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.
So it seems to me some are saying that without a) the physical body dying and b) being in the group at the last trump - that their current, physical body will never stop breathing. I'm NOT discounting that our spirit immediately returns to God as Ecclesiastes states, that Christ has conquered the grave [He holds the keys], that He will resurrect us, and that we are newborn spiritually (resurrected) in this life (and the life to come) through belief, grace, and His blood. That's what I believe. Maybe there's more to see :dontknow:.
No one other than WW has directly answered the direct, simple question whether or not they believe this current, mortal body will never stop breathing. Interesting. I'm trying to cut through the SEMANTICS of this conversation - it appears many are being quite creative, but to me, not altogether clear.
P.S. I agree with a lot of what others are saying, but Seth, you're saying much of what I would say if I had the time, ability, and patience. Good job.
Molly, I get a tickle out of your "we're talking farmer language here" :smile: :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on September 05, 2009, 12:33:35 AM
So it seems to me some are saying that without a) the physical body dying and b) being in the group at the last trump - that their current, physical body will never stop breathing. I'm NOT discounting that our spirit immediately returns to God as Ecclesiastes states, that Christ has conquered the grave [He holds the keys], that He will resurrect us, and that we are newborn spiritually (resurrected) in this life (and the life to come) through belief, grace, and His blood. That's what I believe. Maybe there's more to see :dontknow:.
No one other than WW has directly answered the direct, simple question whether or not they believe this current, mortal body will never stop breathing. Interesting. I'm trying to cut through the SEMANTICS of this conversation - it appears many are being quite creative, but to me, not altogether clear.
P.S. I agree with a lot of what others are saying, but Seth, you're saying much of what I would say if I had the time, ability, and patience. Good job.
Don't hold your breath. :laughing7:
Thanks bro. :hihat:
Did anyone see last Sunday night
the I survived series on TV? It was I survived... death and back
3 people spoke of being ''raised up out of the natural body'' and in the spirit realm/body and life after a literal physical death , for sure it is certain .. I was excited about all
and just confirmation , because we do at times even now experience the spiritual realm as we breath and go on ..
it is sooo cool ... if you get a chance check it out
maybe a second showing of that particular '' I survived ''series will be cast on TV again
:HeartThrob: Rose
Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:40:16 AM
Thanks bro. :hihat:
You're welcome. Ah, deep breath. Good. Thanks :bigGrin:.
OK, in my admittedly limited view, I understand 3 ways to be resurrected to life.
1) this physical body die, be resurrected to immortality.
2) be in the last trump group that will not taste death at Jesus' physical, literal return
3) be resurrected
spiritually while in this tent of flesh through believing on Him, receiving salvation (new creation, all things becom
ing new)
No mystical, elusive, one-liner rhetoric, please. Not semantics or clever verbiage.
Does someone believe there's another way besides the above 3 means of resurrection, and if so, CLEARLY based on what (scriptural much preferred :winkgrin:)?
If not just for me,
I think this thread needs to clear up for others who may be passing through the Tent. Being creative/letting our imaginations loose may be one thing within the fam, but little eyes are watching :cool:.
EDIT: Is being a "supernatural" Manifest Son of God what some of you are getting at as a "4th category"? A relatively small group that may take on immortality outside the "natural" process? Again, just please get clear and succinct here - that's what I'm asking. Believe what you will, just please clarify so everyone knows what's actually being discussed.
Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:27:01 AM
No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.
The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.
The 'water' comes from the quickening spirit.
Not sure what you mean about a freak hybrid mixture, lol, although I 've been called worse.
You are going to raise what you plant. You don't plant a squash seed expecting to raise tomatoes.
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:27:01 AM
No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.
The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.
The 'water' comes from the quickening spirit.
Not sure what you mean about a freak hybrid mixture, lol, although I 've been called worse.
You are going to raise what you plant. You don't plant a squash seed expecting to raise tomatoes.
Well, I wasn't calling you that personally.
You don't raise a seed. The seed BECOMES something else.
You don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!
Paul's illustration of farmer's language shows that the one is CHANGED to be different from the other according to the body which comes from above and CHANGES the seed to a plant. Seeds are not plants and plants are not seeds. And plants are not combinations of seed and plant. The one replaces the other through the change.
QuoteDoes someone believe there's another way besides the above 3 means of resurrection, and if so, CLEARLY based on what (scriptural much preferred )?
I think there might be things we don't know about, don't believe on, knowledge that has been suppressed, that gives a fourth option.
You are assuming the last trump happens at the same time for everyone.
We are given examples of people who have not died in the Old Testament. How much more should that be possible in the New? There is no doubt saints have been already raised from the dead and this is documented in the New Testament.
Seth wants to argue they are not immortal--but, how does he know?
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:--1 Cor 15
"in a moment"G823
ἄτομος
atomosat'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G5114; uncut, that is, (by implication)
indivisible (an
"atom" of time): - moment.
"a mystery"G3466
μυστήριον
mustērionmoos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō
(to shut the mouth);
a secret or "mystery"
(through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
QuoteYou don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!
Actually, you do get tomato seeds along with the tomato. That's why--
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.Our God runs a very orderly universe.
Plant a tomato seed, get a tomato.
And, He's a farmer. :icon_king:
Mol, if "assuming" is taken to mean "to take as granted or true", yes, that's what I believe Paul was describing - THE literal, physical return of Jesus into our presence. Now, I could be wrong, I have been millions of other times, so we'll see. Time tells.
As far as the OT saints that didn't die, I would think they had taken on immortality. I'm not expert on this, but they weren't just back here on earth then, going about their everyday lives were they? Which brings me to the NT folks being raised from the dead. They apparently were back here on earth, going about their everyday lives (though I would think still very changed, energized, enlightened) weren't they? So I'd think they were still mortal, and they still (physically) died at some point :dontknow:. I'm not swearing to it, just thinking it. IF all I just said is correct, that in itself doesn't totally disprove anything, because as far as I understand, without breaking His own Word or will, God can do anything He chooses to do. I do look to a belief to be in line ("proveable") with scripture though (at least, not against it).
I can't prove it, but I guess Paul's body stopped breathing when they cut off his head. AKA, dying. He also said "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." II Corinthians 5:8.
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 01:22:40 AM
QuoteYou don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!
Actually, you do get tomato seeds along with the tomato. That's why--
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Our God runs a very orderly universe.
Plant a tomato seed, get a tomato.
And, He's a farmer. :icon_king:
LOL I KNEW you were going to say that.
The point though is that you don't plant a tomato and expect to get a hybrid tomato/seed thing. Seeds become plants. When I plant a tomato seed, I don't expect for a GIANT tomato seed to come out of earth. I expect for a green plant with leaves and tomatoes to come out of the earth. A tomato plant may BEAR seeds, but they are not THE seeds unto themselves.
You see the fruit born of the life given to the dead seed is the PLANT.
That is why Paul does not say "it is sown a natural body and raised a natural/spiritual body."
rather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."
There is no MIXTURE of natural and spiritual. The "likeness" of Christ's resurrection shows that the natural mind is being REPLACED by the Spiritual mind, not mixed with it. To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. No mixture.
What is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit and the flesh does NOT inherit the kingdom. No mixture: rather, carnal REPLACED with spiritual.
Quote from: martincisneros on September 05, 2009, 12:11:32 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 04, 2009, 05:50:36 AM
DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
IT HAS NO PURPOSE IN LIFE!
IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DESTROY!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH DEATH??????????????????????????????
Amen, when Universalists cherish death as much as life, that's when I jump off the bandwaggon and say I'm not a Universalist 'cause my Bible calls it the enemy of my soul, of my God, the enemy of all I am, of all I've loved or ever will love, et. al. Death is the enemy that all Christians are called to exercise their faith in cultivating the Written Word with and abolish alongside their Champion, Head, and Lord. Death isn't cute and it's not unchallengeable because of what Christ has accomplished in the New Birth. I didn't even know this thread was going on when I posted to facebook last night:
"Death is optional, irresponsible, unnecessary, and completely voluntary."
Again, another
PROFOUND and beautiful post, thank you Brother Martin.
(note: my bold, green)
Quoterather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."
Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit.
The seed dies, so that something inside of it can produce abundant life.
You are saying that the tomato plant is different from the seed; but, it's not different.
It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 02:17:21 AM
It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.
Wonderful, Molly! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2009, 02:17:21 AM
Quoterather, he says "it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body."
Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit.
The seed dies, so that something inside of it can produce abundant life.
You are saying that the tomato plant is different from the seed; but, it's not different.
It's the....what's the right word lol....consummation of the seed.
There is no mixture of spiritual and earthy. To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. Death and life do not mix.
"Yes, because the natural body has a dead spirit; its engine is the carnal mind, whereas the engine of the spiritual body is a quickening spirit."
The carnal mind is replaced with a spiritual mind. The natural body is replaced with a spiritual body.
Do you see the parallel? What is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit. No mixture. That is a sound Biblical principle which you violate with each response contrary to it by saying that the earthy and the spiritual are to be a mixed hybrid. :thumbdown:
1 Corinthians 15:53-55 (Amplified Bible)
53
For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature, and this mortal part of us,
this nature that is capable of dying must put on immortality (freedom from death).
54 And when this
perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on
freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up utterly vanquished forever in and
unto victory.
55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?
O death, where is your sting?
this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death
Martin, Cardinal, Beloved and Molly...
Do you believe that your body will not die and fade back into the dust?
I'm not talking about your spirit/soul/mind etc.
I'm talking your physical body. Your bones, blood, cartilage, veins, muscular system, nervous system, etc.
Yes.
Or
No.
Please just YES. or NO.
No bible verses.
No commentary. :winkgrin:
Just.... yes or no.
PHYSICAL body. Not the "you". Not your spirit...
Your skin, blood, bones, cartilage, veins, etc.
And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?
Again. PLEASE do not quote bible verses or start talking about spiritual things.
I am only talking about your veins, blood, cartilage, hair, bones, etc....
This has GOT to be clarified.
Thank you. :happy3:
Quote from: sparrow on September 05, 2009, 03:44:38 AM
Martin, Cardinal, Beloved and Molly...
Do you believe that your body will not die and fade back into the dust?
I'm not talking about your spirit/soul/mind etc.
I'm talking your physical body. Your bones, blood, cartilage, veins, muscular system, nervous system, etc.
Yes.
Or
No.
Please just YES. or NO.
No bible verses.
No commentary. :winkgrin:
Just.... yes or no.
PHYSICAL body. Not the "you". Not your spirit...
Your skin, blood, bones, cartilage, veins, etc.
And if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?
Again. PLEASE do not quote bible verses or start talking about spiritual things.
I am only talking about your veins, blood, cartilage, hair, bones, etc....
This has GOT to be clarified.
Thank you. :happy3:
For mine Sparrow...
NO :icon_flower:
YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 03:50:44 AM
YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
so thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower: just checkin :icon_king:
Quote from: Taffy on September 05, 2009, 03:58:11 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 03:50:44 AM
YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
so thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower: just checkin :icon_king:
THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 04:00:36 AM
Quote from: Taffy on September 05, 2009, 03:58:11 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 03:50:44 AM
YES, PRAISE THE EVERLASTING, YES, YES, YES!!!
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
so thats a Yes BL...lol :icon_flower: just checkin :icon_king:
THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!
Nice One Bud..just sought to Clarify :icon_jokercolor: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 04:00:36 AM
THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!
Thank you for answering!
Now...
QuoteAnd if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?
Quote from: sparrow on September 05, 2009, 04:05:42 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 04:00:36 AM
THAT'S A YES, TAFFY!
Thank you for answering!
Now...
QuoteAnd if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?
I answered too :sigh:
THANK YOU for answering TAFFY!!!!
LOVE YA!!! :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Lol... :laughing7:
Rejoice Taffy! The Lord has his hand on us as we speak! His rest is our reward!
Quote from: sparrow on September 05, 2009, 04:09:31 AM
THANK YOU for answering TAFFY!!!!
LOVE YA!!! :icon_flower:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Lol... :laughing7:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
love you too girl.... :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
but- the flesh [ our bodies]is the forerunner , the shadow , not the reality, for mine the scriptures dont gel by stating Flesh to spirit back to Flesh again..love to read it if someone can show where... :dontknow:
I knew a minister once who prayed that we NOT be taken and raptured Until he was married, of course his motive wasnt selfish ..lol .....I often wonder where and what he thinks now :icon_flower:
Blessings Siss :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 05, 2009, 04:10:03 AM
Rejoice Taffy! The Lord has his hand on us as we speak! His rest is our reward!
YES :icon_flower: definately so BL
Thesedays BL..Scriptual Arm wrestling isnt [praise HIM] where Im at.... :HeartThrob:
Nor I, Taffy, I'm not cut out to cater to the soul.
What have we learned most recently in our human history? That we can take a piece of our body so small it cannot be seen with the human eye, and recreate the whole body from it.
So what if it turns to dust? I could say that much, first of all, and it's no surprise to anyone who believes in the resurrection of the [physically] dead--how God could take the tiniest atom of you and recreate the whole thing. Man can do it, too, now.
That would have been science fiction 50 years ago--how quickly we forget!
Now life itself is so mysterious. No one really knows how it works. They really don't. They have some ideas...but that's all.
Modern medicine is taught like case history in law, and usually, what goes wrong falls into a few cases and is recognized. But, if it is not, modern medicine can quickly fail.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
What does that spirit quicken? Does it bring the seed to life? No one has answered this for me, yet. Because if it brings the seed to life, what can kill it? And, if that seed becomes a quickening spirit, itself, isn't death swallowed up in victory?
A new babe quickens in his mother's womb--he comes to life--but, we are born from above--while still in this body of corruption. Is that the end of it? Because if we receive that quickening spirit in this life, what do you think that will do to the [physical] body?
On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
--Rev 22
By the way, I'm not asking these questions in order to "debate".
I just want to know where people stand so that I can read their posts correctly.
So..with that said...
If anyone would like to answer the questions/follow up questions, that would be great!
peace.
Then the answer is Yes.
QuoteAnd if the answer is "yes"....
What will prevent your physical body from going back to the dust?
Because Jesus will return before your body goes back to dust?
OR because of some other reason.
And if some other reason... WHAT?
You become the second Adam--a quickening spirit.
:cloud9: I don't know how much plainer I could make it than what I've already shared, aside from what Beloved Servant or Martin said......... :dontknow:.........as the saying goes, I didn't stutter :laughing7:........and again......
1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
And........
2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
In addition to what I said earlier today........has it dawned on anyone yet that Moses, who is the premiere type and shadow, so much so that it was said that God would raise up ANOTHER LIKE UNTO MOSES, and the descendants of Jacob, ESCAPED THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN?
Paul said above we already know that if this tabernacle were dissolved (ie. put off/die) that we ALREADY have a "house" eternal (which is CHRIST in you, the hope of glory, or a glorious body) in heaven, which would be sort of like Him being received into heaven until the time of the RESTITUTION of all things. Restitution means to be restored, and ties in with Jubilee, when every man's POSSESSION was RESTORED to him.
People, we are in a far better covenant than they had, and further we are joined to the Head as His body and He died SO WE DON'T HAVE TO. Think about the pattern here for a second.
In the outer court pattern, it is our spirit that is saved; in the inner court, it is the soul that gets saved, but in the Holy of Holies, it's the BODY that is redeemed. What did He tell them if they would not redeem the firstborn of an ass, which speaks of our stubborn carnal ass nature, of which our natural body is a part of? BREAK IT'S NECK.
When Eli the priest no longer attended to the Lord, no longer heard his voice, because he grew full of flesh and blind (my people perish without a vision), it said he feel backwards and BROKE HIS NECK. The neck speaks of submission to His Spirit, whose yoke is light/revelation.
Every revelation walked out, every thing laid on the altar, every sacrifice of praise, every good work done thru the Spirit of God, brings us one step closer to this redemption which is our RIGHT under the new covenant. He's not been doing cures and casting out devils for the last 2 days of Pentecost, just so we can have a "good looking corpse"! Blessings....
QuotePeople, we are in a far better covenant than they had, and further we are joined to the Head as His body and He died SO WE DON'T HAVE TO. Think about the pattern here for a second.
In the outer court pattern, it is our spirit that is saved; in the inner court, it is the soul that gets saved, but in the Holy of Holies, it's the BODY that is redeemed.
So... Those whose physical hearts have stopped beating and they have been buried in the ground.... ?? What of these people? What did they do that was not enough? Did they not have enough faith? or not have the right kind of faith? Is that what you are saying?
I really have no idea.
Or are you saying that that it doesn't MATTER that their physical bodies have been put in the ground, turned to dust, etc. Now THAT, I can understand. But I don't think you guys are saying that.
:cloud9: Hi Sis.........there are two resurrections mentioned. One is while still in the body, available in the 7th day of which we have entered, and another "general" one ensuring that none be "left out" in the end of this age, which is ending now. God always deals with a firstfruits before He does anything else. That is what He is doing now, ie. dealing with a firstfruits, just like Joshua and Caleb, ect. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2009, 06:04:37 AM
:cloud9: Hi Sis.........there are two resurrections mentioned. One is while still in the body, available in the 7th day of which we have entered, and another "general" one ensuring that none be "left out" in the end of this age, which is ending now. God always deals with a firstfruits before He does anything else. That is what He is doing now, ie. dealing with a firstfruits, just like Joshua and Caleb, ect. Blessings.....
ok, so are you saying that those whose bodies have already perished/put in a coffin and buried... that THOSE people are part of the "general" resurrection?
and for others... they won't even die physically and have their bodies put in a coffin and buried... but that their bodies will be instantly glorified "changed in the twinkling of an eye"...
Is that what you mean?
Again, the ONLY reason I am asking is to clarify what you believe.
I'm not here to debate.
I know what I believe, I'm just trying to understand what it is that YOU beleive.
That's all.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Just clarification.
:cloud9: You got it! Blessings....
Ok!! :grin:
Now we're getting close.
So... do you believe in a millenial reign that is about to start..(in your lifetime)?
So people will continue to physically die, but not those who are the elect?
Perhaps this question seems to have come out of left field, I don't know...
but this is maybe the only scenario I can think of that aligns with what I think you are saying.
peace.
thanks!
:cloud9: Have you noticed how natural and spiritual even in the context of linear time, line up, which the pattern of the Tabernacle also bears witness to? So having said that, yes I do believe in a literal dispensation, but the spiritual dispensation of that 7th day, by virtue of being not bound by time, which IS CHRIST, has always been.
Our eyes are just being opened to spiritual realities that were first revealed to the disciples of the Lord, but as men out of season, they could not walk in it, but rather laid down their lives as seed to bring forth what was revealed to them, for THIS GENERATION.
Blessings....
This has been a pretty exciting discussion.
I hope the three questions got answered... :laughing7:
:cloud9: I don't even remember what the three questions, WERE, LOL.........hope I didn't derail the thread :mblush: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2009, 06:55:26 AM
:cloud9: I don't even remember what the three questions, WERE, LOL.........hope I didn't derail the thread :mblush: Blessings....
This thread is the highway to heaven.
Nothing could derail it.
7 The burning sand will become a pool,
the thirsty ground bubbling springs.
In the haunts where jackals once lay,
grass and reeds and papyrus will grow.
8 And a highway will be there;
it will be called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not journey on it;
it will be for those who walk in that Way;
wicked fools will not go about on it.
9 No lion will be there,
nor will any ferocious beast get up on it;
they will not be found there.
But only the redeemed will walk there,
--Isa 35
Well...
I have no problem with dying a physical death.
I suppose we just have different beliefs.
I can't make sense of what you all are saying and I think my questions and you guys' answers is making it even LESS clear.
So...perhaps another time this topic will come up again.
But for now...
I guess I'll just say peace to ya and have a nice night.
:HeartThrob:
:cloud9: And I thought I WAS helping to make it more clear...... :dontknow: Nite........Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2009, 07:05:33 AM
:cloud9: And I thought I WAS helping to make it more clear...... :dontknow: Nite........Blessings....
Sorry no... :sigh:
Just being honest.
peace to ya, Cardinal.
Dear Sparrow, look to Jesus. As I've contemplated this thread, that's what He's impressed upon me. Look unto Him.
...LOOKING UNTO JESUS, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH..." Hebrews 12:2
God's blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on September 05, 2009, 07:25:10 AM
Dear Sparrow, look to Jesus. As I've contemplated this thread, that's what He's impressed upon me. Look unto Him.
...LOOKING UNTO JESUS, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH..." Hebrews 12:2
God's blessings, James.
:HeartThrob:
God bless you guys :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 07:55:00 PM
God bless you guys :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
What about the gals?
Oh yeah, oh yeah. God bless you too "gals."
I thought the gals were covered in my figure of speech. :laughing7:
(http://www.hellocrazy.com/reserved/cards/200410221213310.baciotrecceT.gif)
eeeeeeeewwwwwwww!
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 12:04:35 AM
(http://www.hellocrazy.com/reserved/cards/200410221213310.baciotrecceT.gif)
:cloud9: WW, I'll have you know I resemble that remark! :mrflo:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2009, 06:04:37 AM
:cloud9: Hi Sis.........there are two resurrections mentioned. One is while still in the body, available in the 7th day of which we have entered, and another "general" one ensuring that none be "left out" in the end of this age, which is ending now. God always deals with a firstfruits before He does anything else. That is what He is doing now, ie. dealing with a firstfruits, just like Joshua and Caleb, ect. Blessings.....
The Bible does speak of a first resurrection, so naturally,
there is a second.
It seems that spiritually speaking that the "manchild" was caught up
to the throne, before the "woman" who brought him forth, or gave
"birth" to him.
The manchild rules the nations with a rod of iron.
When the "woman" is reunited, does she rule with LOVE? Just a
question, and for sure, she has to be reunited with that. Is all
that spiritual?
That and 1st Peter one nine which says "receiving the END of your
faith, even the salvation of your SOULS, seems to take care of
the "soul and body" .......
Now we got one more thing to know, Lord!!! That is the "redemption
of the BODY" Romans 8. So that would be the LAST thing, right?
How is the "body" redeemed? And where is that "body" which is
"changed" seen?
Is that body, which is "changed" the one that does not SLEEP?
We shall not all sleep, but we shall be "changed."
Being "changed" is not necessarily putting on the NEW BODY reserved
in heaven for us, is it? Not necessarily the "tabernacle" eternal?
Is there a difference here?
Now when it comes to the thousand year stuff, I have NEVER been
told a thing on that.........so I really don't know. And when I get this'
BODY thing figured out, I'll say more. ha
Quote from: sparrow on September 05, 2009, 07:02:06 AM
Well...
I have no problem with dying a physical death.
I suppose we just have different beliefs.
I can't make sense of what you all are saying and I think my questions and you guys' answers is making it even LESS clear.
So...perhaps another time this topic will come up again.
But for now...
I guess I'll just say peace to ya and have a nice night.
:HeartThrob:
I am glad you brought this up, cause I am a little confused by some of the posts also.
I can't imagine no physical death we have to die to get to where we are going, is what I believed.
This is a great thread regardless of my lack of understanding. :cloud9:
Quote from: Redlettervoice on September 06, 2009, 02:45:28 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 05, 2009, 06:04:37 AM
:cloud9: Hi Sis.........there are two resurrections mentioned. One is while still in the body, available in the 7th day of which we have entered, and another "general" one ensuring that none be "left out" in the end of this age, which is ending now. God always deals with a firstfruits before He does anything else. That is what He is doing now, ie. dealing with a firstfruits, just like Joshua and Caleb, ect. Blessings.....
The Bible does speak of a first resurrection, so naturally,
there is a second.
It seems that spiritually speaking that the "manchild" was caught up
to the throne, before the "woman" who brought him forth, or gave
"birth" to him.
The manchild rules the nations with a rod of iron.
When the "woman" is reunited, does she rule with LOVE? Just a
question, and for sure, she has to be reunited with that. Is all
that spiritual?
That and 1st Peter one nine which says "receiving the END of your
faith, even the salvation of your SOULS, seems to take care of
the "soul and body" .......
Now we got one more thing to know, Lord!!! That is the "redemption
of the BODY" Romans 8. So that would be the LAST thing, right?
How is the "body" redeemed? And where is that "body" which is
"changed" seen?
Is that body, which is "changed" the one that does not SLEEP?
We shall not all sleep, but we shall be "changed."
Being "changed" is not necessarily putting on the NEW BODY reserved
in heaven for us, is it? Not necessarily the "tabernacle" eternal?
Is there a difference here?
Now when it comes to the thousand year stuff, I have NEVER been
told a thing on that.........so I really don't know. And when I get this'
BODY thing figured out, I'll say more. ha
Hi! RedLetterVoice
Not surprisingly, your observations are correct concerning the reality of a first and second resurrection.
Things can get somewhat confusing because oftentimes a Bible translation can improperly assign a word which was not intended in the original manuscript.
This becomes apparent with the term 'spiritual body' and 'glorified body' too.
These are subjects best approached collectively; by that I mean: neither the resurrection nor the substance of the spiritual body can be understood separately ... they must be woven into a single scripturally consistent thread.
The same can be said about 'Hell' and 'Hades' and 'Death'. If these terms are studied independent of one another, it can become rather confusing.
For instance, yesterday I was busy drafting a study concerning the spiritual body. Where did I begin? Well, it wasn't the obvious 1Cor 15:44. No, I had to go back to the beginning; back to Genesis.
Why begin there? Insight into the beginning is extremely important; it is in Genesis where we first read of man being invested with a spiritual body.
If you wish, we can together study these things and maybe arrive at some better understandings.
IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE
Our change from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible is a promise of God that can no more fail or pass away than any other of God's promises. "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:51-53).
I want to show you one of the hidden secrets of God, that only the Spirit of Truth can bring forth. After saying, "but we shall all be changed," the next words read, "in a moment." The Greek word used here for "moment" is ATOMOS. This passage is the only place in the Greek New Testament where this word is used. ATOMOS is the word from which is derived our English word "atom." The word carried the meaning in the Greek of that which is UNCUTTABLE or INDIVISIBLE because the Greeks believed that the atom was the smallest particle of matter that existed, therefore it could not be divided, cut, split, or reduced in any way. The translators have taken this to mean that our bodies shall be changed in "an atom of time," that is, in an instant of time so brief that you could not make it any quicker, or reduce the time in any measure. I can understand their reasoning, but it seems to me far afield from the facts. There are other Greek words that do mean moment, an infinitesimal period of time. If the Spirit intended this to be - in a moment - then why did He use the word ATOMOS instead of the word that actually means Moment. For instance, in II Cor. 4:17 we find the statement, "For our light afflictions which are but for a moment..." This word "moment" comes from the Greek word PARAUTIKA which means instant or momentary. So why did the Spirit use the word ATOMOS instead of the word PARAUTIKA when He said, "We shall all be changed, in a moment ... if He meant moment? And why do the translators persist in translating it "moment"? There must have been a reason for the Holy Spirit to use the word ATOMOS, that God has kept hidden from the translators. Does not this word ATOMOS indicate that we shall be changed in the ATOMS of our bodies, in the very structure and substance of our outer house, in the ATOMICAL STRUCTURE of our bodies? "We shall be changed in ATOMS, in ATOMICAL STRUCTURE, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump!" Certainly this is much more in harmony with the subject: "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" I Cor. 15:44,49). Certainly this involves a change in our atomical structure!
Following these words the apostle hastily adds this enigmatical phrase, "in the twinkling of any eye." "Twinkling" is from the Greek word RHIPE meaning "a jerk" of the eyes. RHIPE is from the root RHIPTO, a word which indicates a sudden motion; to hurl with a rapid movement; a stroke; to toss; to fling. The twinkling of an eye relates not so much to time as it does to the ACTION and MOTION involved. It is not a question of how quickly the eyelids flutter, but the fact of a movement, a jerk, a change of direction, a SUDDEN REFOCUSING OR LOOKING AWAY. If I were reading a book and I heard the door open, I would swiftly dart my eyes in the direction of the door to see who is entering. I would LOOK AWAY from the book and quickly REFOCUS my sight on the person coming through the door. This abrupt motion, this sudden refocusing of vision, this rapid change of eye contact is what is indicated by the Greek word RHIPE.
When our attention is unexpectedly attracted by a sudden burst of revelation and spiritual understanding there is that instantaneous "turning away" from our former concepts, beliefs, actions and ways, to behold and embrace the truth and glory of God disclosed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This sudden change in perspective, this immediate transformation of consciousness satisfies precisely the meaning of the Greek phrase - "in the twinkling of an eye." It bespeaks vision, illumination, understanding, perception and perspective. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with a so called "rapture of the saints," or the "second coming of Jesus." Plainly and unquestionably it concerns O-U-R CHANGE, O-U-R TRANSFORMATION into the image of Christ. It says nothing about us being "raptured" in the twinkling of an eye; what it does say is that "WE SHALL BE CHANGED in a moment (in atoms), in the twinkling (re-focused vision) of an eye." Yet the preachers loudly proclaim on the basis of this verse that Jesus will return in a split second, and the saints will in a flash of time travel a trillion miles cf miracle at the Rapture. It is as pure a myth as ever entered the brain of man!
My heart leaps within me as I contemplate this wonderful reality - being CHANGED! From the distant mountain peaks of faith comes a sound as clear as morning chimes. It is the voice of the inspired apostle sounding out from centuries past, "BEHOLDING as in a glass the glory of the Lord, WE ARE CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Cor. 3:18). Beholding - we are changed! It is the same message - "We shall be changed ... in the twinkling of an eye!" We are changed by a beholding, by a looking, by A LOOK. Betimes it takes a lot to turn us. The Psalmist cries out, "Turn us, O Lord. Cause Thy face to shine and we shall be saved" (Ps. 8O:3,7,19). It is only as we turn in the direction of the present glory that we can know transformation! You can read the history of revivals, you can study the exploits of men of faith in centuries past, you can reminisce about the great visitations of God yesteryear. There is not enough power in such things to transform you. And there no need to cry, "Lord, do it again!" for our God is ever progressive in His dealings and the outworking of His purposes, and He doesn't retrogress to "do it again." This is a New Day and God will do a New Thing! Transformation comes only in the light of the present glory and revelation of Jesus Christ. We must turn, to behold Him as He is, not as He was. There is a multitude of people today whose experience goes no further than small measure of knowledge about the historical Jesus they read of in the Gospels. Countless thousands more know Him only in the light of yesterday's revelation. Oh! we need to turn to Him today by the Spirit. Seeing and knowing Him involves an on-going unveiling of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
— Preston Eby
LOOKING FOR HIS APPEARING, Part 36
Kingdombiblestudies.org
:Sparkletooth:
Gilbert!! Let's do.
If you wish, we can together study these things and maybe arrive at some better understandings.
You first.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 06, 2009, 03:32:30 AM
IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE
Our change from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible is a promise of God that can no more fail or pass away than any other of God's promises. "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:51-53).
I want to show you one of the hidden secrets of God, that only the Spirit of Truth can bring forth. After saying, "but we shall all be changed," the next words read, "in a moment." The Greek word used here for "moment" is ATOMOS. This passage is the only place in the Greek New Testament where this word is used. ATOMOS is the word from which is derived our English word "atom." The word carried the meaning in the Greek of that which is UNCUTTABLE or INDIVISIBLE because the Greeks believed that the atom was the smallest particle of matter that existed, therefore it could not be divided, cut, split, or reduced in any way. The translators have taken this to mean that our bodies shall be changed in "an atom of time," that is, in an instant of time so brief that you could not make it any quicker, or reduce the time in any measure. I can understand their reasoning, but it seems to me far afield from the facts. There are other Greek words that do mean moment, an infinitesimal period of time. If the Spirit intended this to be - in a moment - then why did He use the word ATOMOS instead of the word that actually means Moment. For instance, in II Cor. 4:17 we find the statement, "For our light afflictions which are but for a moment..." This word "moment" comes from the Greek word PARAUTIKA which means instant or momentary. So why did the Spirit use the word ATOMOS instead of the word PARAUTIKA when He said, "We shall all be changed, in a moment ... if He meant moment? And why do the translators persist in translating it "moment"? There must have been a reason for the Holy Spirit to use the word ATOMOS, that God has kept hidden from the translators. Does not this word ATOMOS indicate that we shall be changed in the ATOMS of our bodies, in the very structure and substance of our outer house, in the ATOMICAL STRUCTURE of our bodies? "We shall be changed in ATOMS, in ATOMICAL STRUCTURE, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump!" Certainly this is much more in harmony with the subject: "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" I Cor. 15:44,49). Certainly this involves a change in our atomical structure!
Following these words the apostle hastily adds this enigmatical phrase, "in the twinkling of any eye." "Twinkling" is from the Greek word RHIPE meaning "a jerk" of the eyes. RHIPE is from the root RHIPTO, a word which indicates a sudden motion; to hurl with a rapid movement; a stroke; to toss; to fling. The twinkling of an eye relates not so much to time as it does to the ACTION and MOTION involved. It is not a question of how quickly the eyelids flutter, but the fact of a movement, a jerk, a change of direction, a SUDDEN REFOCUSING OR LOOKING AWAY. If I were reading a book and I heard the door open, I would swiftly dart my eyes in the direction of the door to see who is entering. I would LOOK AWAY from the book and quickly REFOCUS my sight on the person coming through the door. This abrupt motion, this sudden refocusing of vision, this rapid change of eye contact is what is indicated by the Greek word RHIPE.
When our attention is unexpectedly attracted by a sudden burst of revelation and spiritual understanding there is that instantaneous "turning away" from our former concepts, beliefs, actions and ways, to behold and embrace the truth and glory of God disclosed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This sudden change in perspective, this immediate transformation of consciousness satisfies precisely the meaning of the Greek phrase - "in the twinkling of an eye." It bespeaks vision, illumination, understanding, perception and perspective. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with a so called "rapture of the saints," or the "second coming of Jesus." Plainly and unquestionably it concerns O-U-R CHANGE, O-U-R TRANSFORMATION into the image of Christ. It says nothing about us being "raptured" in the twinkling of an eye; what it does say is that "WE SHALL BE CHANGED in a moment (in atoms), in the twinkling (re-focused vision) of an eye." Yet the preachers loudly proclaim on the basis of this verse that Jesus will return in a split second, and the saints will in a flash of time travel a trillion miles cf miracle at the Rapture. It is as pure a myth as ever entered the brain of man!
My heart leaps within me as I contemplate this wonderful reality - being CHANGED! From the distant mountain peaks of faith comes a sound as clear as morning chimes. It is the voice of the inspired apostle sounding out from centuries past, "BEHOLDING as in a glass the glory of the Lord, WE ARE CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Cor. 3:18). Beholding - we are changed! It is the same message - "We shall be changed ... in the twinkling of an eye!" We are changed by a beholding, by a looking, by A LOOK. Betimes it takes a lot to turn us. The Psalmist cries out, "Turn us, O Lord. Cause Thy face to shine and we shall be saved" (Ps. 8O:3,7,19). It is only as we turn in the direction of the present glory that we can know transformation! You can read the history of revivals, you can study the exploits of men of faith in centuries past, you can reminisce about the great visitations of God yesteryear. There is not enough power in such things to transform you. And there no need to cry, "Lord, do it again!" for our God is ever progressive in His dealings and the outworking of His purposes, and He doesn't retrogress to "do it again." This is a New Day and God will do a New Thing! Transformation comes only in the light of the present glory and revelation of Jesus Christ. We must turn, to behold Him as He is, not as He was. There is a multitude of people today whose experience goes no further than small measure of knowledge about the historical Jesus they read of in the Gospels. Countless thousands more know Him only in the light of yesterday's revelation. Oh! we need to turn to Him today by the Spirit. Seeing and knowing Him involves an on-going unveiling of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
— Preston Eby
LOOKING FOR HIS APPEARING, Part 36
Kingdombiblestudies.org
:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN.........there are a people who are going to overcome the last enemy while in their body, just as the Lord did while in His. When He said no man takes my life, I lay it down, He was speaking out of the reality of Him ALREADY having overcome death.
Divine healing worked within Him and came out without measure, so if He couldn't die from disease, and no man could take His life, then the only way He COULD die was to lay it down, and He proved He had mastery over death when HE took His life back up, the life or POWER of the resurrection that Paul said he wanted to know. The power of the resurrection is His LOVE known as intimately as one who lays his head upon His bosom.
Those that are going thru even life threatening illnesses this day, understand it is not to wipe you out, but for Him to raise up in you in power so that you KNOW that sickness CANNOT kill you, and is the first measure of overcoming death. This is what the Lord told me when I faced terminal cancer 12 years ago, and He healed me within a week of diagnosis. The giants in the land right now, they are bread for you, and that's all. Be GLORIFIED, Lord, in Your people this day. Blessings....
Quote from: fullarmor2 on September 01, 2009, 05:06:58 AM1) What is the difference between the coming of the Lord described in Revelation, on the white horse, and the coming of the Lord described by Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4 , the coming in the air, with the dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ, rising and meeting the Lord in the air.
I posted this article last October on the boards. Unsure if the accompanying link is still any good. Computer's been acting up 'cause of facebook visits and not wanting to chance clicking on extra links right now, 'til I've done a reboot:
Farewell to the Rapture
By: N.T. Wright
Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus' second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.
The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre
1. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal "rapture" in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been "left behind." This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.
This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?
It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event
2. The gospel passages about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus' vindication, his "coming" to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.
The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines
3, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won't in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which "heaven" is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.
The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).
Paul's description of Jesus' reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus' "coming" or "appearing," those who are still alive will be "changed" or "transformed" so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what's been going on in his absence.
Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which "the people of the saints of the Most High" (that is, the "one like a son of man") are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul's image of the people "meeting the Lord in the air" should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul's mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
Paul's misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul's, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God's world on the grounds that it's all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn't this be overturned if we recaptured Paul's wholistic vision of God's whole creation?
1Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, Left Behind (Cambridge, UK: Tyndale House Publishing, 1996). Eight other titles have followed, all runaway bestsellers.
2See my Jesus and the Victory of God (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1996); the discussions in Jesus and the Restoration of Israel: A Critical Assessment of N.T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God, ed. Carey C. Newman (Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999); and Marcus J. Borg and N.T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), chapters 13 and 14.
3Douglas Farrow, Ascension and Ecclesia: On the Significance of the Doctrine of the Ascension for Ecclesiology and Christian Cosmology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999).
This message was taken from a page at this site: http://www.ntwrightpage.com
Yes, Martin, the link works.
QuoteWe might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology?
It's a doctrine of demons. I realized this when I heard Hagee take it to its logical conclusion--Let's start armageddon ourselves so we can usher in the return of Jesus and leave the mess behind. No thought for the rest of us unraptured souls who would be left behind in Hell. I put myself in that group instead of Hagee's group because what he is declaring is one of the most evil things I have ever heard. I'll stay behind in the Hell he is hoping to create, thank you, rather than follow him anywhere.
Satan, however you perceive it, could have no greater wish than that all the people of God be dead and gone from this world. It is a force of death, which works tirelessly to dominate, subjugate, and destroy everything that is pure, everything that is good, everything that is of God.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. That's Satan's vision of the future.
So let's marginalize the people of God by telling them they are all going to be leaving this place soon anyway, and recruit them in the process to do the work of the Devil. It's just the same old story --deja vu all over again.
(http://www.offthemarkcartoons.com/cartoons/2001-07-28.gif)
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 06:08:59 AM
QuoteWe might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology?
It's a doctrine of demons. I realized this when I heard Hagee take it to its logical conclusion--Let's start armageddon ourselves so we can usher in the return of Jesus and leave the mess behind. No thought for the rest of us unraptured souls who would be left behind in Hell. I put myself in that group instead of Hagee's group because what he is declaring is one of the most evil things I have ever heard. I'll stay behind in the Hell he is hoping to create, thank you, rather than follow him anywhere.
Satan, however you perceive it, could have no greater wish than that all the people of God be dead and gone from this world. It is a force of death, which works tirelessly to dominate, subjugate, and destroy everything that is pure, everything that is good, everything that is of God.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
That's Satan's vision of the future.
So let's marginalize the people of God by telling them they are all going to be leaving this place soon anyway, and recruit them in the process to do the work of the Devil. It's just the same old story --deja vu all over again.
Hi! Molly
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments you expressed about the 'Left Behind' Series.
But after reading your comments, a question came to my mind like this: "Is the 'Left Behind' Series any less damaging or disarming to the Christian than, say, those who claim that Jesus' return has Him first coming to the earth?".
The Bible says in 1Th 4:17: "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".
What is the air? The air is a region or realm belonging to the prince of this world. In Ephesians 2:2, Paul says: the ruler of the kingdom of the air.
Think about Barak.
He descended the mountain of Tabor, remember?. He went down the mountain. Why? He had to capture Sisera. Sisera himself was unable to go up the mountain. When Barak realized this, he decided to descend the mountain.
The Lord descends the mountain; to the region where the ruler of the air is, the territory of the evil one. As it states in Revelation 12:10, the accuser of the brothers had been hurled down.
Now if you take a look at what happened in the Tower of Babel, the people climbed up to the highest temple, so that they could execute their occult practices. And then it says: and the Lord came down. God came down. Why? To see what they were doing and; and to do something about it.
God comes down and the enemy wants to go up. And the Lord says, that the air, which is the territory of the ruler of the world, will be the last battle field. This is where the last encounter will take place.
We are talking here about the struggle, about Armageddon. The Lord is gathering His armies. He is gathering them from among those who have fallen asleep and He is gathering them from those who will still be alive on the earth. And these two groups He will bring together in the region belonging to the evil one in the air.
That is the resurrection.
Quote from: martincisneros on September 06, 2009, 05:43:44 AM
[The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines3, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.
Doc Cis, I've stated a couple of times that I believe there will be those instantly changed when Jesus is again literally in our presence. They will not taste death. The "last trump group". But
as I understand, that's a group that's alive when HE chooses to be again literally, physically present with us. And I believe scripture states no one knows the day nor hour (Mt. 25:13).
I'm not sure J.Preston, in the earlier post, is saying a whole lot different than that - perhaps
mainly other than he doesn't believe a "rapture" is involved and that
these bodies will be changed to immortality - (still seemingly though "at Jesus' return/a look"?) :dontknow:.
Unless one is alive when Jesus physically returns to us, how do you believe death is optional? Thanks, James.
(ANYONE ELSE FEEL FREE TO RESPOND - Martin's busy and may not get to this :thumbsup:.)
QuoteAnd the Lord says, that the air, which is the territory of the ruler of the world, will be the last battle field. This is where the last encounter will take place.
Hi Gilbert,
Where does it say the air will be the last battlefield?
Is this talking about the army of the Lord of hosts who carry on the battle in the air?
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. --Eph 6
Is this where he is outfitting this army for the battle in the air?--
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
--Eph 6
And, is this the Lord's army [host] fighting the final battle in the air ?
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.--Rev 19
Quote from: jabcat on September 06, 2009, 07:22:51 AM
Quote from: martincisneros on September 06, 2009, 05:43:44 AM
[The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines3, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.
NOT JUST FOR MARTIN, but for anyone kind enough to directly address my questions; I've stated a couple of times that I believe there will be those instantly changed when Jesus is again literally in our presence. They will not taste death. The "last trump group". But as I understand, that's a group that's alive when HE chooses to be again literally, physically present with us. And I believe scripture states no one knows the day nor hour (Mt. 25:13). I may be wrong, but it seems some believe there will be a group that reach some sort of perfection outside the "last trump/twinkling of an eye change" group. Is that right, or are we finding multiple ways to say the above, that when Jesus literally appears those who are alive and remain will be instantly changed?
I'm not sure I really see J.Preston saying a whole lot different than that - mainly other than that he doesn't believe a "rapture"'s involved and that these bodies will be changed to immortality (I don't understand exactly WHEN or HOW he believes this occurs other than a "look") :dontknow:.
So are we generally saying that the last trump group won't taste death, or that there's some other way? How does that make death optional, unless one is alive when Jesus physically returns to us? If I'm not seeing something that's being said other than what I've noted , please clearly edumacate me :thumbsup:.
Call me a dumb guy, but I keep trying to nail this down to a few clear bullet points. Call it "Resurrection For Dummies". :laughing7:
Hi! JabCat
First of all, I jus' laffed aloud when reading your comment saying, "Resurrection For Dummies".
Secondly, I am not much familiar with JPreston's teachings; having only read a few of his articles last week.
Now, about the Resurrection:
While I will try and make the as simple as possible, I should warn you that my writing style oftentimes is oblique and disjointed, so bear with me, huh?
The first step you have to take in order to be on the way of true resurrection life is your repentance. The gospel of Jesus Christ starts with the call: "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", (Matt 4:17). A change of heart is required; a complete renewal of your unseen, inner man. Only then can you enter into the Kingdom of God, where you will find "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit", (Romans 14:17). In your old, unrepentant condition you are dead before God because of your sins. No one can serve two masters. No one can have contact with the evil one and real life at the same time, for genuine life is from God.
'To be dead' means to have contact with the realm of darkness; to be a servant of the powers of darkness and sin. When you obey these evil inspirators, they reward you with death; meaning alienation from God. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death", and in Isaiah 59:2 we read: "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God". When you repent you disengage yourself from the enemy. You refuse to obey him further and you turn away from this violator who leads you towards death. Inwardly you tear away from your escorts and oppressors and cease to listen to the falsehoods of these evil powers. You disengage your tired and guilt-laden human spirit from darkness and look at Jesus Christ, the bringer of salvation and the restorative power of your life.
Some might ask: But isn't man dead in transgressions and sin? How can a dead person repent? Death in this sense means that in spirit and soul man has lost fellowship with God who is life. Even if man is spiritually dead, he is still able to walk, eat, hear, think and feel, and to gather knowledge through faith. By his spirit he can even influence others. Moreover, man's spirit is immortal. Jesus said that the spiritually dead would hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear would live, that is, have fellowship with God, (John 5:25).
This transportation from darkness to light, this translation from the power of Satan to God, the bible calls man's regeneration. Just as at his birth a child emerges from his secret place and starts a new phase of life, likewise the inner man after being born again takes up his place in the spiritual world, which is called the Kingdom of heaven. Henceforth this Christian not only lives in the visible or natural world, but first and foremost he functions in the lighter side of the spiritual world, that is, in the Kingdom of God. Thus, it is necessary for his thoughts, (previously only occupied with the things of the earth), to be directed to heavenly matters. This requires a total change or renewal of the mind.
This process of change, by which a person is born again as a spiritual man, takes place in the Christian's inner man. It begins in his spirit and then continues in his soul and even in his body. Although it does not happen all at once in its full totality, (the renewal is a daily increase), it is God's wish that even at the start the Christian should testify of his faith in this complete regeneration or re-creation. He not only does so in words, but also symbolizes it through his baptism in water.
In Mark 16.16 Jesus said: 'He who believes and is baptized will be saved.' The word 'saved' means that the believer will be enabled to completely fulfill God's purpose with man, not only that he will be justified and born again, but also continuing on the road of salvation, that he will partake of the glory of sonship. This salvation culminates in a Christian's perfection and maturity. For he is an heir of God and a co-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17). He partakes of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4), and is predestined to reign on the throne of God over all the works of his hands (2Tim 2:12 and Rev 5:10). Jesus Christ came to 'bring many sons to glory' (Heb 2:10).
In his baptism the believer testifies that he has entered into the 'narrow gate,' Jesus Christ and that he has put his feet on the road which leads upward in the Kingdom of God (Matt 7:13). The biblical order is: He who believes and is baptized! The bible further mentions 'the washing of regeneration', (Titus 3:5). This means that the word of God is active as a cleansing bath in water. For that reason the bible speaks of 'the washing of water with the word' (Eph 5:27). As in natural life water cleanses a person from dirt, so the inner man is purified or cleansed of the guilt of his sins by a spiritual immersion in the words of God. These words wash him, and he is resurrected as a new man in righteousness. The Lord said to his disciples: 'You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you', (John 15:3).
By the words which God spoke to us we know that as the Lamb of God, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29). When the inner man, that is soul and spirit, takes his position in the shelter of these words and accepts them, he partakes of this cleansing, and a new life begins. The baptism in water symbolizes this 'washing of regeneration.'
The bible also says that with Jesus we were buried by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life, (Romans 6:4). Here again there is a spiritual event, there is a 'baptism in his death,' a partaking in Jesus' death for our sins. Because Jesus died God takes it that we have died with Him, that is that in our existence a separation has come into being between the life as we knew it before, directed and inspired by the things of this earth and the powers of darkness, and the life which we now live under the guidance and influence of the words of God.
The way in which the believer functioned and reacted before, was of the earth, sometimes even from the devil. The believer disengages himself from this way of life. He puts off the old nature which is corrupt through deceitful lusts (Eph 4:29), and focuses his attention on the things which God has said to him. He desires to function and react in obedience to the ways of the Kingdom of God. He puts on the new nature which is created after the likeness of God (Eph 4:4). The 'glory of the Father' has raised Jesus from the dead, that is, his power or his Holy Spirit. This 'glory' also raises the believer to a newness of life in which even his mortal body shares, as it too experiences God's saving and healing power.
It is clear that this change from the old to the completion of the new takes much time. Baptism in water symbolizes the death of the old as well as the resurrection of the new man. When the baptismal candidate surrenders himself to be immersed he relinquishes his old nature in the water grave. Emerging from the water he confesses his justification and the newness which has started. He forgets the things which are behind and presses onward for the things to come, for 'no one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God' (Luke 9:62). And, what is more wonderful still: God Himself forgets the things that happened in the past and accepts the baptized Christian as his justified child.
In our days many people migrate to another country. In the new land they start a completely new life under new laws. Thus baptism also symbolizes the inner man's migration from the world, and his naturalization in the heavenly places: the believer becomes a citizen of heaven (Phil 3:20).
The doctrine of the resurrection of the dead may be called the most important pillar of fundamental Christianity (1Cor 15:13-14). Our inner as well as our outer man is concerned in the resurrection of the dead; it is the restoration of soul, spirit and body. It is a process of renewal starting at repentance and regeneration and for those who are in Christ, finishing with a physical return to life at the Lord's coming. We are speaking of those who share in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6). The first resurrection starts when man's life is restored on the new foundation of God, it is completed in the physical resurrection. The temple of God is complete when the Christian has been restored in soul, spirit and body, when he is completely filled with the Spirit of God.
The resurrection of the dead draws our attention to the fact that man lives forever and ever. The bible teaches that man's visible life is transient, but his unseen life is eternal. (2Cor 4:18). Soul and spirit belong to the spiritual world and so make man's inner life indestructible Just as the celestials. Ephesians 2:1 says that we were dead through our trespasses and sins, which does not mean that our inner man did not exist before, but was alienated from real life with his Creator, not functioning after his laws, a prey of evil powers. Therefore it continues: 'In which you once walked, following the course of this world (which is ruled by the evil one), following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.'
The inner man being dead means that he is in the power of the evil spirits. Death of the outward man is the separation of the inner man and the body. A dead body does not remain unchanged, it is subjected to the influences of negative and destructive forces. A person who is inwardly dead is subject to the destructive forces of hate, jealousy, lies, uncleanness, depression, etc. He functions after the law of powers of sin and death. In the body, death manifests itself in decomposition, a return to dust. Life after the laws of God, life in righteousness, manifests itself in joy, peace, and strength in the inner man and Health for the outward man.
Resurrection is the change from death into life, from darkness into light, deliverance from the power of Satan and return to God. In the case of the prodigal son resurrection started when he said: 'I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' His resurrection became a fact when the Father accepted him, put the best robe on him, and provided a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. Then the Father said about his son: 'He was dead, and is alive again.' (Luke 15:11-32). Jesus described the spiritual resurrection in these words: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live' (John 5:24-25).
When he is baptized in water a Christian testifies that his old ways of thinking, his old man, is buried and that a new life has started which is nourished from the heavenly places. Many Christians think that a believer goes to heaven only after he dies. If so, how can his ways and citizenship be in heaven? How will he be able to fight and conquer in the heavenlies if he is not present there? It says: 'And raised us up with him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus' (Eph 2:6).
He who is in Christ, that is, he who belongs to his spiritual body of which He is the Head, is in heaven, in the Kingdom of God, which is the good part of the Kingdom of heaven. In him our Lord's prayer is fulfilled: 'Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory' (John 17:24). Our life there is in faith, and we see with eyes that are opened spiritually. Natural feet cannot tread in the spiritual world, physical eyes cannot see it hands of flesh cannot touch it. There we hear God's voice in the inner man and express ourselves in images derived from natural life, to create a picture of the unseen, unheard and untouched reality. Jesus spoke of this world in parables. He started his parables with these words: 'The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to ...'
Jesus said: 'I am the resurrection and the life.' We are resurrected with Him when we adopt his ways of thinking, for then we will speak and act as He did. Then we view earthly circumstances from the heavenly places, from 'above.'
There are Christians who lack insight in the world of the Kingdom of heaven and so are unable to live and develop there. Their life is based on the Old Testament. Their knowledge is related to the natural world and this world does not go beyond the grave. The things that lie beyond the grave are a closed book to them. They like to quote the words of Moses: 'The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever' (Deut 29:29). But in the new covenant Paul says: 'For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths (the deepest thoughts) of God' (1Cor 2:10). We rejoice in having received this Spirit!
A well-loved text of those who teach the so-called 'sleep of the soul' is Psalm 115:16: 'The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of man. The dead do not praise the Lord.' They fail to see that this verse shows the tremendous difference between the Old and the New Covenant. For the Lord says to his followers: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given', (Matt 13:11). Ecclesiastes says: 'The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost,' but of Christians who live at the Old Testament level it may be said that they do have knowledge of the things happening on earth, but know nothing of that which is related to the unseen Kingdom of heaven and do not share in the body of the Lord which is formed there.
When we bury somebody he is dead for us but he lives for God who dwells in the unseen world, (Luke 20:38). The so-called doctrine of the sleep of the soul is based on the assumption that at his death the entire person dies. He is assumed to cease existing in body, soul and spirit. This error is in flat contradiction with the things the New Testament teaches about the Kingdom of heaven. Just think of Abraham's discussion with Lazarus and the rich man. Revelation 6:9 tells us of the crying of the souls that were slain for the Word of God. These dead are capable of crying even though they do not have a physical body. God Himself, and the host of spirits, are capable of calling, sometimes even with a loud voice (Rev 14:5).
A sleeping person is not dead but moves in the unseen world only. In the spirit he is able to walk, to struggle, to have fear, even to make long journeys, traveling in the spirit. When a Christian dies he ceases to be able to function on earth. He falls asleep but lives on in the unseen Kingdom of God.
When he is born again a true Christian he rises to a new life. To him applies: 'Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead.' This should make it clear that this unseen man, the inner man, does not die a second time to be resurrected a second time at the coming of Jesus. Jesus said to the faithful of the New Covenant they would never see or taste death, (John 8:51-52), and those who believe in Him shall live, even though they die, and whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, (John 11:25-26).
Once we have risen from spiritual death, and persevere in faith, we will not die to fall victim to death and Hades. We belong to the body of Christ and have, just as that body, eternal life only. When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9). On earth he lived m the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead, He who is united with such a Spirit will not enter death, and that Spirit will not abandon man when he dies. Timothy 1:10 says that Christ Jesus abolished death and has brought to light life and immortality through the gospel. That means He has done away with death.
God said to Adam: 'In the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall die.' For us, however, there is a tree of life, and those who eat of it will live forever. 'I am the bread of life. If any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever, and those who eat it shall not die', (John 6:48-51). The doctrine of the sleep of the soul interferes with the foundation, that is with Jesus Christ. It says that the spiritually resurrected will die again. This is a natural religion occupying itself with the visible world and not with the Kingdom of God, and of course in the natural world dead is dead.
The most well-known text in the bible is John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' Because of this eternal life the inner man is able to go on, to persevere for ever. This life cannot be damaged by death, for it is sustained by the Holy Spirit. It is life of a high quality.
In 2Cor 5:1-10 Paul compares our death with the destruction of the earthly tent. He shows that even then the faithful have a building from God in heaven, an eternal house. The apostle longed for the moment of taking up a dwelling place in that heavenly house. It is a heavenly home, that is, a purely spiritual body. It functions in the unseen world only.
What is now the resurrection of the dead? Does it mean that the graves are opened and the tombstones lifted and dead people suddenly arise? But then how about those who died ages ago whose graves have vanished? How about the martyrs who were burned, their ashes strewn out in the river? The answer is in 1Cor 15:35-49: 'But some one will ask, 'How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as He has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.'
The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.
In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that were hidden in it. From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some kind of corn or any other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual house. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, picture of the natural body, but the plant itself develops in another atmosphere where there is light and air and sun.
When the Lord returns those who slept in Christ will be raised, they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body has long returned to dust and will not be raised.
Resurrection is a new life and work in the unseen world. Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to ;hat of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.
Life in the body of resurrection is a mystery but I will try to draw you a weak comparison:
We know that water vapor is invisible. It is subject to the physical laws for gases. Water vapor is even able to penetrate walls. Under certain circumstances, however, it is transformed and becomes visible as water, fog, snow or hail, which are all subjected to the laws for solids or liquids. The Lord's immortal body was able to penetrate doors but at the same time Jesus said: 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24:39). When Jesus ascended to heaven a cloud 'took Him out of their sight.' Now He is in the heavenly places only, although the possibility exists for our Lord to appear in a visible shape (Mark 16:12). This is what happened to John at Patmos, and to Paul, who is told that he is appointed 'to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth' (Acts 22:14).
During his life on earth a Christian moves in two worlds. In his physical body he is on earth, 'away from the Lord' in a foreign country but his spiritual body (spirit and soul) is in Christ, that is in Christ's body. When he dies he is detached from the natural sphere and dwells with the Lord only. When Jesus returns to earth He is accompanied by the saints who have fallen asleep. When He appears they will appear with Him. The Christians who are alive left until the coming of the Lord. will be changed in a moment, 'in the twinkling of an eye,' and their perishable bodies will be transformed into immortal and glorified bodies. In these bodies they will be caught up to meet the Lord to join the saints who have already risen (1Thess 4:16-17). Then the time has come that the 'planting of the Lord' will be functioning anew and bear new fruit. These 'trees of life,' the bible says, will bear fruit twelve times, yielding it each month, and their leaves (the gifts of the spirit) are for the healing of the nations.
I have only addressed the First Resurrection. I will not include the Last Resurrection in this discussion here; (where the dead, small and great, will stand before the throne of God). I suspect that I am near exceeding the Post size of this Forum.
Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?
Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...
Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
We are encompassed with a GREAT CLOUD of "witnesses." HE is
coming to "us" in this CLOUD, I believe. Spirits
of Just Men made perfect.........gathered on Mt. Zion. He is coming
with this HEAVENLY HOST. To me, it is a personal coming. I am of
the mind that He is come, has come, and will come. I'm not sure
I believe in a bunch at one time, maybe so, but God shows me the
"bunch" is on MT. Zion known as the HOST of Heaven. The HEAVENLY
HOST. We will be reunited with "them", are being even NOW .......in the air, means in the
Spirit. What goes on in the Spirit is NOT Seen by mortal eyes.
What God is going to show to mortal eyes, I do not know, but I know
some about in the Spirit because I have "experienced" some of it...and
so have you.
The rapture thingy and the left behind stuff, like this remind me of the "multitude" that followed the Lord "afar off." Reminds me of a man
with only ONE LITTLE EWE Lamb.
When the Word from the Lord says "Return unto ME, it means we listen
to no other VOICE but the Spirit that God put in us. This is honoring
HIM, this is being "still" and knowing that "HE" is God, not Tim LaHaye
or any other, but this is a PROCESS, this is a "growing up" ...what
PAUL prayed for when he said "OH, that I might be found IN HIM,'
not having mine own righteousness, ....etc." We have to lay or put
our own righteousness down.......so that we will have the POWER to
pick up HIS. The bible states that we "wait" for that righteousness.Righteousness is "something revealed" ......Romans 1
Unrighteousness is also "revealed" ........Romans 1But we do find it, the righteousness of God, because it comes when God sends it, remember that God works on a perfect timetable for OUR sakes....God brings this right righteousness to us and clothes us with HIS.
Jesus grew in "stature" ....at one point He said plainly, "My FATHER
is GREATER than I." Later, after [/b] He grew some more, He said
[color=In my Father's House are many mansions,maroon]MY FATHER and I are ONE[/color]!~
......."He" knew at this point that He was IN the Father,
and the Father was in Him, and He in us." And He said, "we'd KNOW."
Now how does this come about? It comes thru the "annointing to
KNOW" .....1st John wrote you have an annointing to "KNOW" all things.
I believe that is about oneself........your own life. Jesus said, when
they asked Him about those mansions, He said "WE Will come to you."
This is how YOU will "know" but the "world" will not. These people had
not "died" a "casket" death at this point, nevertheless, it is God's word. Check out
the words in this section of scripture. Enough of this manifesting of
what Jesus spoke of is bound to change the body atoms. Nothing
is too hard for the Lord. Nothing.
GILBERT: When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9).
RLV: Not only at "casket" death, are we to KNOW that "death has no more dominion over HIM"
but we are told in that section of scripture, to NOW recon ourselves "dead" ........and NOW "death" has no more dominion over us. The realm of "blessing AND cursing" has no more dominion. Jesus said, "I" am come that ye may have LIFE!!! All who came before me, were
theives and robbers. What is HE and we robbed of? LIFE! How so? By a deathly mindset brought about "by the abuse of the law"....Jesus didn't come to "do away" with the LAW, but
to "fulfill" it. Love is the fulfilling. When we go from the "death" realm to the LIFE realm.
Again, Hebrews 9.
RLV: We shall not "all" sleep.
'That' plainly says some will what? "AWAKE." How do you do that?
And what do you "awaken" to?
Righteousness. The true righteousness.
AWAKE unto righteousness, for some do not have the knowledge of God.
So awakening to His Righteousness imputed to give us "belief" has to do with what?
The KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
For some shall not sleep. But shall be "changed" ............must be thru the knowledge of God!That will bring us to the realm of death that now has NO MORE DOMINION over us, so how
can you not conquer all that God intends for you to? You will. Read that close what I just said.
The knowledge of God is NOT the knowledge of the tree of knowledge, that will not awaken us.
But the knowledge of God is the "WATER" that will cover the earth, promised. The HEAVENLY
WATER that comes from where? ABOVE. From a HEAVENLY Priest sitting on the right hand
of the Father, henceforth .........expecting ..........
1st Cor. 15 - check me out on that, for that is where it is.
What "is" the true righteousness?
Well it is NOT having mine own.........will have to LAY "that" down!EBY: His words were music to my ears.
So were "Cardinals" .......So were YOURS.
RLV: When I contemplate the "change" that is goi
to happen in a twinkling of an eye........I do believe
it is the change of the atoms. I have grown right
here in this study. Thank you all.
Remember JOB "Yet in this flesh, shall I see God.
And he spake of his C H A N G E.
Molly: I think Gilbert is right about the "last" overcoming.
We are all wrestling to overcome by strength the princapalities,
powers, rulers of darkness, and last spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.
That is in the heavens.
But really, we are just waiting...........for when things come to a point,
God Himself does "come down" to destroy that which says it is God and
is not. And HE Himself "speaks" to and thru us to do that.
RLV: One more aspect. When Jesus said, "A "body" thou hast prepared
me.......is it connected to "I go away to prepare a place for you, that
where I am, there may ye be...." "And to each SEED, His own BODY,
.........somebody speak up here.
Quote from: Redlettervoice on September 06, 2009, 03:22:23 PM
We are encompassed with a GREAT CLOUD of "witnesses." HE is
coming to "us" in this CLOUD, I believe. Spirits
of Just Men made perfect.........gathered on Mt. Zion. He is coming
with this HEAVENLY HOST. To me, it is a personal coming. I am of
the mind that He is come, has come, and will come. I'm not sure
I believe in a bunch at one time, maybe so, but God shows me the
"bunch" is on MT. Zion known as the HOST of Heaven. The HEAVENLY
HOST. We will be reunited with "them", are being even NOW .......in the air, means in the
Spirit. What goes on in the Spirit is NOT Seen by mortal eyes.
What God is going to show to mortal eyes, I do not know, but I know
some about in the Spirit because I have "experienced" some of it...and
so have you.
The rapture thingy and the left behind stuff, like this remind me of the "multitude" that followed the Lord "afar off." Reminds me of a man
with only ONE LITTLE EWE Lamb.
When the Word from the Lord says "Return unto ME, it means we listen
to no other VOICE but the Spirit that God put in us. This is honoring
HIM, this is being "still" and knowing that "HE" is God, not Tim LaHaye
or any other, but this is a PROCESS, this is a "growing up" ...what
PAUL prayed for when he said "OH, that I might be found IN HIM,'
not having mine own righteousness, ....etc." We have to lay or put
our own righteousness down.......so that we will have the POWER to
pick up HIS. The bible states that we "wait" for that righteousness.Righteousness is "something revealed" ......Romans 1
Unrighteousness is also "revealed" ........Romans 1But we do find it, the righteousness of God, because it comes when God sends it, remember that God works on a perfect timetable for OUR sakes....God brings this right righteousness to us and clothes us with HIS.
Jesus grew in "stature" ....at one point He said plainly, "My FATHER
is GREATER than I." Later, after [/b] He grew some more, He said
[color=In my Father's House are many mansions,maroon]MY FATHER and I are ONE[/color]!~
......."He" knew at this point that He was IN the Father,
and the Father was in Him, and He in us." And He said, "we'd KNOW."
Now how does this come about? It comes thru the "annointing to
KNOW" .....1st John wrote you have an annointing to "KNOW" all things.
I believe that is about oneself........your own life. Jesus said, when
they asked Him about those mansions, He said "WE Will come to you."
This is how YOU will "know" but the "world" will not. These people had
not "died" a "casket" death at this point, nevertheless, it is God's word. Check out
the words in this section of scripture. Enough of this manifesting of
what Jesus spoke of is bound to change the body atoms. Nothing
is too hard for the Lord. Nothing.
GILBERT: When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9).
RLV: Not only at "casket" death, are we to KNOW that "death has no more dominion over HIM"
but we are told in that section of scripture, to NOW recon ourselves "dead" ........and NOW "death" has no more dominion over us. The realm of "blessing AND cursing" has no more dominion. Jesus said, "I" am come that ye may have LIFE!!! All who came before me, were
theives and robbers. What is HE and we robbed of? LIFE! How so? By a deathly mindset brought about "by the abuse of the law"....Jesus didn't come to "do away" with the LAW, but
to "fulfill" it. Love is the fulfilling. When we go from the "death" realm to the LIFE realm.
Again, Hebrews 9.
RLV: We shall not "all" sleep.
'That' plainly says some will what? "AWAKE." How do you do that?
And what do you "awaken" to?
Righteousness. The true righteousness.
AWAKE unto righteousness, for some do not have the knowledge of God.
So awakening to His Righteousness imputed to give us "belief" has to do with what?
The KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
For some shall not sleep. But shall be "changed" ............must be thru the knowledge of God!That will bring us to the realm of death that now has NO MORE DOMINION over us, so how
can you not conquer all that God intends for you to? You will. Read that close what I just said.
The knowledge of God is NOT the knowledge of the tree of knowledge, that will not awaken us.
But the knowledge of God is the "WATER" that will cover the earth, promised. The HEAVENLY
WATER that comes from where? ABOVE. From a HEAVENLY Priest sitting on the right hand
of the Father, henceforth .........expecting ..........
1st Cor. 15 - check me out on that, for that is where it is.
What "is" the true righteousness?
Well it is NOT having mine own.........will have to LAY "that" down!EBY: His words were music to my ears.
So were "Cardinals" .......So were YOURS.
RLV: When I contemplate the "change" that is goi
to happen in a twinkling of an eye........I do believe
it is the change of the atoms. I have grown right
here in this study. Thank you all.
Remember JOB "Yet in this flesh, shall I see God.
And he spake of his C H A N G E.
Molly: I think Gilbert is right about the "last" overcoming.
We are all wrestling to overcome by strength the princapalities,
powers, rulers of darkness, and last spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.
That is in the heavens.
But really, we are just waiting...........for when things come to a point,
God Himself does "come down" to destroy that which says it is God and
is not. And HE Himself "speaks" to and thru us to do that.
RLV: One more aspect. When Jesus said, "A "body" thou hast prepared
me.......is it connected to "I go away to prepare a place for you, that
where I am, there may ye be...." "And to each SEED, His own BODY,
.........somebody speak up here.
Hi! RedLetterVoice
Whew! Yuh shure made alot of pertinent points here.
Here are some additional items that might be helpful to consider:
The "inner man" or the "hidden man of the heart" is what the Bible terms the 'spiritual body'. The "inner man" consists of soul and spirit.
With the creation of man, God created something which is similar to His own being. Because man is created in the image of God; we should not be surprised to learn that the existence/form of man is similar to God. Because God is a person with a spiritual body, man also has a spiritual body. Because God has a spiritual heart, man also has one. Man can speak, see, and hear, (in both the visible and invisible world), because God can do this.This not only goes for the spiritual body of man, but also for his natural body. The visible is connected to the invisible and is an image of it.
While man has God's likeness, he is not equal to God. Man is not a being which is identical to God; rather, one who fitted God harmoniously in every aspect. God has laid a unique principle of growth, development and evolution in this human being so that, by and in relationship with God, he could grow into both a natural and spiritual adulthood. Man would enjoy a life on a level worthy to God and in a loving and working relationship with God. So it is that the Psalmist sings: "For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet",(Psalm 8:5,6). This does not point to the imperfect man (nature), but to the still immature man (stature).
Because we possess a spiritual body, (because we possess a spirit and soul), there resides deeply within every man a concept of eternity and of the eternal God. Within everyone is a need to understand and live from out of our attachment to the unseen world. This is why an awareness of God, a need for eternity and a longing for God yearns to develop and mature within us. At the start, we follow our awareness and proclaim: God is. He is the beginning of all things. All things came of Him, for Him, and to Him. Later, this confession has the potential to lead us to a complete and true perception of God. Afterwards, we begin to exchange the tiresome shout of, "This is what I believe!", for "This is what I have seen and heard".
God is (a) spirit, (John 4:24). God is immaterial. God knows no growth, no evolution, God is eternal. These same characterizations are also found in the beings that God called into being with the creation of the heaven: the angels. They are immaterial; they know no growth, no evolution. They will exist until eternity. Hebrews 1:14 tells us they are ministering spirits.
In the spiritual world we should not think in terms of place and space. In the spiritual world there are no locations; only situations. In the spiritual world, the matter of 'time' also has a different meaning. It is always attached to the continuance of a particular process. God does not think in terms of hours, days or months. Rather, only the stage of a certain process is normative to Him.
However, with the creation of earth, God used other principles. He formed the matter, substance, and built an entire material world with it. In this world, (similar to the spiritual world), God created unique possibilities of growth and development too. In this world God created centers of growth through which God's "intentions" would be revealed through a process of development. On the earth we think in terms of place, space and time; transitionary instead of eternity.
We might be inclined to think that the visible world and invisible worlds cannot be united; two worlds which are so utterly different. But the exact opposite is true. The visible, material world does not exist independently. It is influenced, carried and controlled from the spiritual world. Heaven exists for earth; earth exists for heaven. They 'belong' to each other and are complementary to each other. God is not only King of heaven, but also of earth. God created two worlds which, at first glance, seem completely different from each other, but on closer examination, reveal themselves as completely belonging to each other.
God created these two worlds especially with regard to man. In His infinite wisdom and grandness, God considered this combination as the correct one for man. An angel is created only for the spiritual world and therefore has an existence in one world only. Plants and animals were created for the natural world and they live only on the earth. Because God would create man for one life in two worlds at the same time, all the laws of the spiritual world and all the eternal within that world flow together forming the unique principle of growth and development which is the very basis of the natural world.
Thus, it can justly be said that man is the crown of God's creation; in man all 'different parts' combine. In man is both the material and the immaterial; growth and eternity are clenched together in one being. Consequently, man would be able to mature and develop into God's partner and to live eternally in a relationship based on love with God. Man, together with God, could and would be able to rule the heaven and the earth. That's how God thought of it. Everything that was created in heaven and on earth could contribute to that ultimate purpose and plan of God. That is how God had intended it to be; it was with this intent that God created everything.
The heaven and the earth exist for us. That's how God originally intended it to be. From the very original plan of God everything has its individual task and destiny; all focused on an abundance that characterizes God: generous, full, and overflowing. As such there could be life and abundance for everything and all. Therefore, it is exceedingly important for us to obtain an insight in God's original plan with man. We want to get to know Him, 'who is from the beginning', (1John 2:13). We want to love God; that is love His plan with our lives. In this way God will be able to reveal and give Himself more and more to us; so that the heaven and the earth, with all in it, including man(kind) shall be as God intended 'in the beginning'.
I'd like to talk a little more about what ww pointed out.
The tomb of Jesus is empty! The body is risen from death.
Look what acts says, isn't it is at the moment of resurrection [of the physical body] that God says he is 'begotten'?
More so, even though his physical body is dead, it is not allowed to be corrupted by death.
Therefore, death never touches him.
That word, 'begotten' is an important one: it's different from the word used in John 3:16.
[today I have] "begotten" [you]
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
26"Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. 27For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem,who are now his witnesses to the people. 32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
"'You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.'
34And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
"'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'
35Therefore he says also in another psalm,
"'You will not let your Holy One see corruption.'
--Acts 13
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 11:26:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?
Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...
I know Molly. Naugthy me was just baiting the trap :winkgrin:
Part of this thread was about the question if we really die. Soul sleep. The body is transformed or a totally new body.
The body of Jesus was gone. If we can assume it wasn't stolen or taken away by God then the body Jesus appeared in after His death was not a new body but a transformed body.
So if Jesus needed His old body to get ressurected doesn't that mean He stopped breathing. Doesn't it also mean all the dead bodies that are in the grave right now aren't resurrected yet. Maybe there soul sleeps or is awake somewhere; but there bodies are still here and most of the bodies have seen lots of corruption. Actually the majority has turned to dust.
So I think it's very important to understand the meaning of the empty tomb.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 07:33:35 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 11:26:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?
Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...
I know Molly. Naugthy me was just baiting the trap :winkgrin:
Part of this thread was about the question if we really die. Soul sleep. The body is transformed or a totally new body.
The body of Jesus was gone. If we can assume it wasn't stolen or taken away by God then the body Jesus appeared in after His death was not a new body but a transformed body.
So if Jesus needed His old body to get ressurected doesn't that mean He stopped breathing. Doesn't it also mean all the dead bodies that are in the grave right now aren't resurrected yet. Maybe there soul sleeps or is awake somewhere; but there bodies are still here and most of the bodies have seen lots of corruption. Actually the majority has turned to dust.
So I think it's very important to understand the meaning of the empty tomb.
Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born [gennao], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --John 1
The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 07:48:57 PM
Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?
The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!
It doesn't may any sense to me. I not sure what you are trying to say.
Let's start with a simple question.
When is the resurrection of the body?
Shortly after death or a unknown moment is the (far) future.
Note:I'm speaking
only the body of flesh and blood.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 07:54:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 07:48:57 PM
Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?
The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!
It doesn't may any sense to me. I not sure what you are trying to say.
Let's start with a simple question.
When is the resurrection of the body?
Shortly after death or a unknown moment is the (far) future.
Note:I'm speaking only the body of flesh and blood.
The resurrection of the body happens *when* we are begotten of God--
*when* we become the second Adam--a quickening spirit.
Do we have to wait for death for that to happen? Not necessarily. Not all will sleep.
That's what makes the most sense to me...
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
"firstborn" [of many brothers]
G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokospro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): -
firstbegotten (-born).
That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 08:15:13 PM
That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?
As far as I know--so far, no--with some exceptions, as already mentioned.
But no man knows the time--and these things are happening in stages.
And, the resurrection of the body, first seen in Jesus, is the last stage--
This is actually talked about as a birth...
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.--Rom 8
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 08:15:13 PM
That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?
WW, here is my answer as I understand it. A believer dies. He sleeps in Christ (without knowledge that he is dead for as the scripture says, there is no knowledge in the grave). Because those who are alive shall not go before those who are dead, and because the patriarchs died having not received the promise that they will not be perfected without us, the entire church will be perfected together all at once. That means, when that happens when you open the graves there will be nothing there. The bodies will be clothed with Christ, even as Christ (who already had the Holy Spirit) prayed to God to clothe him with with Himself. It is all one Spirit.
The reason the graves will be empty is NOT because God has to do it that way. God can do anything he wants. It just so happens that he reveals victory over death THROUGH resurrection OF the dead. So empty graves reveal that victory to the world even as Christ's empty grave revealed that victory to his disciples and to those who believe though they do not see. This doesn't mean that I believe in some cataclysmic event whereby the resurrection will be visible, but that the visibly empty graves show that death is destroyed.
Jesus Christ is the resurrection, both in terms of the way we are raised in the likeness of the resurrection, and how we attain the resurrection of the dead. First we are to be clothed with Christ in that our minds are renewed, and then we are to be clothed with his immortality so that death (that is ALL death) shall be destroyed by resurrection, all of it is "himself."
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2009, 08:15:13 PM
That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?
As far as I know--so far, no--with some exceptions, as already mentioned.
But no man knows the time--and these things are happening in stages.
And, the resurrection of the body, first seen in Jesus, is the last stage--
This is actually talked about as a birth...
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--Rom 8
Hi! Molly and WhiteWings
If you don't mind, I would like to insert a comment to this discussion, because it has peeked my curiosity much. There are many ideas concerning this subject; so I might as well contribute my own to mess things up even more, huh?
Remember this Scripture found in Matthew 27:51-53?
"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"
In the telling the story of Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection the popular evangelists of our day mainly address themselves to what takes place in the visible world. They speak about the betrayer, about the garden of Gethsemane, and about Jesus' suffering there, which became almost unbearable and turned his sweat into drops of blood falling down upon the ground. They also tell how Jesus was given up into the hands of sinners, how He was mocked, beaten, injured and crucified by them. We also read that His dead body was put in a grave and we are given much information about the events taking place after the resurrection.
Only occasionally, here an' there is a corner lifted of the veil which hides from sight the tremendous events which were happening in the kingdom of heaven at the same time.
Matthew mentions the tombs that were opened and the dead who were then raised in the moment when Jesus gave up the ghost.
From the moment when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, the Holy Spirit had withdrawn and Jesus was forsaken by God. Before He gave up the ghost, His last words were a loud cry to the Father to be united again with His 'hand'; meaning to say: with the Holy Spirit. His last thoughts here on earth are contained in this cry: "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit". Then Jesus entered the realm of the dead.
In Isaiah 14 we read how the king of Babylon once caused a great tumult in the realm of the dead when he made his entrance there. The kings of the nations were amazed and rose from their thrones when this mighty king descended to the place where they were. But, lest we fail to comprehend: how much greater was the commotion when the Prince of life, united with the Spirit of life, made an appearance in the realm of the dead!
The story of Matthew is a representation of the events which took place in the world of the spirits. The curtain between the outer and the inner sancturary was torn in two. This veil symbolized the fact that, in the Old Covenant, access to the heavenly sanctuary and the throne of God was closed. Now the way to the Father was opened. Henceforth, the inner man would be able to enter the Kingdom of God. Man was enabled to depart the kingdom of darkness and find life in the kingdom of God.
But the possibility was also created that those who were in the tombs, that is, in the realm of death, could be placed into the Paradise of God. All of this took place with great tumult and commotion, not only in heaven, but also on earth; for the earth reacted in earthquakes and the splitting of rocks. The visible as well as the unseen things were shaken, as it says: "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven".
It hardly makes sense if we believe that the tombs around Jerusalem were opened to let the dead come out of their graves. Even for Jesus it was not necessary that the stone be removed from in front of His grave, for He was able to move through closed doors. Neither is the resurrection described here limited to the small number of righteous people of all ages who happened to be buried in the burial caves and tombs geographically around Jerusalem. No, we are not speaking here about a regional resurrection.
Who are the dead saints who were raised, and in what kind of body did they arise?
I believe they were the righteous who during their life looked forward to the day of Christ. They knew they were strangers and sojourners on earth, and they looked forward to a better country, that is, a heavenly one. For them too God had prepared a dwelling place: the holy city, the new Jerusalem.
By the arrival of Jesus in the realm of death many saints were raised. Many who were in the tombs, that is, who dwelled in the realm of death, heard the voice of the Lord, and this was the sign for them to prepare to enter the Holy City with Jesus. To them too applied that a natural body was sown but a spiritual body raised. Their inner man, their soul and spirit, was clothed with the garment of righteousness which the Lord now gave them, and then they arose.
These spiritual people remained in the realm of death until Jesus left it and manifested Himself on earth in His glorified body. His humiliated but not decayed body in the grave of Joseph of Arimathea was changed in a point of time and taken up, swallowed up, in His spiritual body. Thus He became the example for all who will remain alive until the Day, whose bodies will be tranformed in a point of time.
As the Lord manifested Himself, so the resurrected saints also appeared with Him to many brothers on earth. This shows that we should not think that the Holy City is the old Jerusalem. Jerusalem was a city which killed the prophets and stoned those God sent to her. This city is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt. The resurrected saints did not go into the geographical holy city to appear there to many. Rather they went into the Holy City in heaven and appeared to many on earth; for instance to the crowd of believers on the mountain in Galilee. They left the realm of death for good and now live in the Kingdom of God, just like all of us who are born again and thus have gone from death to life.
1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
--John 20
We first witness the risen Christ when it is still dark. All we see is the empty tomb. There is nothing there. We don't quite comprehend what has happened. Where is the body? Did they take it somewhere? Was it stolen? hidden?
Later, we still see dimly. We still can't recognize or comprehend what we are seeing.
11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.
14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
--John 20
When do we know. then? When do we really believe? When he finally calls our name and we turn and truly see him as he is, the resurrected Christ.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
--John 20
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFdGbdlyzI
.
Gilbert wrote:In his baptism the believer testifies that he has entered into the 'narrow gate,' Jesus Christ and that he has put his feet on the road which leads upward in the Kingdom of God (Matt 7:13). The biblical order is: He who believes and is baptized! The bible further mentions 'the washing of regeneration', (Titus 3:5). This means that the word of God is active as a cleansing bath in water. For that reason the bible speaks of 'the washing of water with the word' (Eph 5:27). As in natural life water cleanses a person from dirt, so the inner man is purified or cleansed of the guilt of his sins by a spiritual immersion in the words of God. These words wash him, and he is resurrected as a new man in righteousness. The Lord said to his disciples: 'You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you', (John 15:3).
RLV: The Lord washes us with his word because He is like
a husband to present us unto Himself without spot, He washes all
the spots out. That is what is meant by w/o spot or blemish.
In Hebrews the last part, it speaks of us "entering" in thru the veil,
and I believe that it is LOVE that penetrates the veil so that we can
go thru ........actually expericening what Jesus has provided.......
and that veil is HIS BODY, or HIS Flesh, not man's flesh, but HIS
Flesh, and we are told to "boldly" enter, having our "BODIES"
w a s h e d..........bodies washed? .......that seems to be a very
important point.
anyone want to comment? on that washing of the body?
Here is one more thing I noticed that I wanted to point out.......
Henceforth, the inner man would be able to enter the Kingdom of God. Man was enabled to depart the kingdom of darkness and find life in the kingdom of God.
John 9:
7 And He said to him, Go, wash in the Pool of Siloam--which means Sent. So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
8 When the neighbors and those who used to know him by sight as a beggar saw him, they said, Is not this the man who used to sit and beg?
9 Some said, It is he. Others said, No, but he looks very much like him. But he said, Yes, I am the man.
10 So they said to him, How were your eyes opened?
11 He replied, The Man called Jesus made mud and smeared it on my eyes and said to me, Go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and I obtained my sight!
Quote from: RLVIn Hebrews the last part, it speaks of us "entering" in thru the veil,
and I believe that it is LOVE that penetrates the veil so that we can
go thru ........actually expericening what Jesus has provided.......
and that veil is HIS BODY, or HIS Flesh, not man's flesh, but HIS
Flesh, and we are told to "boldly" enter, having our "BODIES"
w a s h e d..........bodies washed? .......that seems to be a very
important point.
anyone want to comment? on that washing of the body?
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Yes, it's not our flesh, but his flesh. It's not our spirit, but his Spirit.
As God created Eve out of the side of Adam, so are we created [restored] out of the side of Christ.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. --Gen 2
Through his flesh we are able to walk into the most holy place, through the veil, to the throne of God himself.
It is through complete union with him that we will be saved, body, mind, and soul.
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--Hebrews 12
"general assembly"G3831
πανήγυρις
panēgurispan-ay'-goo-ris
From G3956 and a derivative of G58; a mass meeting, that is, (figuratively)
universal companionship: - general assembly.
"church" [of the firstborn]
G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsiaek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564;
a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
[just men]
"made perfect"G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046;
to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
:omg: I better limit my questions to one or two next time!
:cloud9: Amen, Molly and RLV..........and don't you dare, fullarmor2, LOL! Blessings.....
Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Our hearts are 'sprinkled' but our bodies are 'washed'--
"washed"
G3068
λούω
louō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to bathe (the whole person; whereas G3538 means to wet a part only, and G4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively): - wash.
This word--louo--refers to the whole body being made wet...
with pure water...
"water"
G5204
ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.
G5205
ὑετός
huetos
hoo-et-os'
From a primary word ὕω huō (to rain); rain, especially a shower: - rain.
James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Thanks Gilbert for clearly stating what you believe and for taking the time to let me know. Thanks for trying to help clarify, WW and Sparrow.
Am I the only one here aware of the huge spiritual warfare going on right now?
It's like watching the clash of giants--on both sides.
To which end, I am praying ceaselessly for the Lord Jesus to raise up his brothers.
Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels...
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2009, 07:17:07 PM
Am I the only one here aware of the huge spiritual warfare going on right now?
Likely not. But I'm not one of that group.
What makes you conclude that there is a spiritual wafare going on; and how is it different from before?
Plz no verses but your own wording I can understand. Type slowly :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2009, 08:02:13 AM
QuoteAnd the Lord says, that the air, which is the territory of the ruler of the world, will be the last battle field. This is where the last encounter will take place.
Hi Gilbert,
Where does it say the air will be the last battlefield?
Is this talking about the army of the Lord of hosts who carry on the battle in the air?
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
--Eph 6
Is this where he is outfitting this army for the battle in the air?--
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
--Eph 6
And, is this the Lord's army [host] fighting the final battle in the air ?
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
--Rev 19
Hi! Molly
I am not quite sure about the point you seem to be asking; whether you managed to find agreement with my comments or not concerning "the air".
Anyways, now that I am here reading your reply, how 'bout I throw some more ideas into the mix?
The Bible repeatedly mentions 'Death' as if it were a person. Revelation 20:14 mentions that 'Death' and the kingdom of Death who are flung in the lake of fire. In Revelation 9:11, Death is named as 'Abaddon' and 'Apollyon', who is the angel of the Abyss and king of the locusts and scorpions. In Rev 6:8 'Death' appears riding a horse with his followers close behind him.
The personification of Death does not denote Satan. Instead, Satan is called the commander of the powers of the air, (Eph 2:2), whose army we shall have to conquer in the 'air' or in the 'heavenly realms', (Eph 6:12).
After all, Death is still present after the devil is thrown in the 'abyss of fire', (Rev 20:10,14)). He is called the 'last enemy'. (Gen 2:15-17).
The devil an 'accomplice' of Death because he desires to work death by seducing man to sin, (Gen 2:15-17).
2Timothy 1:10: says that after the victory on the cross the Lord also stripped Death of his power and revealed imperishable life through the gospel of life and light. The 'power of Death' is the death of the inner man because of sin. With the stupendous victory of our Lord Jesus on Golgotha, the devil who was hitherto the 'ruler of the world' is now dethroned. The Son of Man could call aloud: 'It is done'. With His victory, He stripped Death of its power (sin) and which for ages had robbed man of the possibility to reach his true destiny of eternal life which, from the beginning, the Creator had ordained.
Jesus came not only to atone for sin, but also to rule. Jesus came to take away from Satan the sceptre of rulership which He had confiscated from Adam and then to establish His kingdom on earth. From the very beginning of His ministry, Jesus cast out devils. Every miracle was proof of Jesus' power over Satan. It was a demonstration of Christ's right to establish His rule on earth.
In Colossians 2:15 we find a confirmation of this: it says there that on the cross Jesus disarmed the powers and principalities and made a public example of them. Until the cross, Satan was able to demand full control of the world. He had made himself the prince of the powers of the air and the god of this age, and this meant that his power on earth was virtually unlimited.
Even during Jesus' ministry in Palestine, Satan's rule had already been violated by the miracles and healings Jesus did. However, on the cross Satan's power was broken for good. Jesus' death and resurrection were proof that henceforth the enemy had lost all rights to authority and power. Therefore, the cross is the sign of full deliverance from all power of Satan. Paul wrote about this: "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father", (Phil 2. 9- 11). The same idea is expressed in Ephesians 1:19-22 where Paul prays that the faithful may discover, "what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, for above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all".
After reading Matthew 16:22-23, I suspect that it was perhaps this experience which Peter had in mind when in his letter he exhorted the faithful to be watchful and to resist the enemy in faith, (1Peter 5:8-9). The word 'resist' has an intriguing meaning here; it indicates agressive attack rather than mere defence. This the basic principle of God's method in dealing with the devil: always the attack, an active resistance. In James 4.7, we find the similar thought counter offensive., "Resist the devil and he will flee from you". But what is also important to import from the above mentioned scriptures is that each of us experiences their own 'personal armageddon' in preparation for the 'final armageddon'.
Consequently, we should always distinguish between the 'powers of sin' that seduce people or force them to sin, and the 'powers of Death' (occult powers) which entirely interfere with the potential eternal destination of man. In this respect IJohn 5:16, 17 makes a distinction between 'sin leading to death' and 'sin not leading to death'. With 'sin leading to death' it is not enough to pray for forgiveness. The only way to break the claim of 'Death' is deliverance in the Name of Jesus.
Now about 'Armageddon':
Armageddon is situated in the invisible world (aka: the heavenlies).
Armageddon means the mountain of 'Megiddo'. This 'mountain' symbolizes the spirit of antichrist, the beast from the bottomless pit.
It is the scene of the decisive battle which, according to the apostle, will be against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual host of wickedness in the heavenly places, (Eph 6:12). From the heavens these terrible armies will be thrown
onto the earth. This means that Satan will launch his entire army in an all-out attempt to demonize man, for he knows that his days are numbered.
In the bible two cities form each other's counterpart: Babylon and Jerusalem. The tower of Babel and the temple of Jerusalem are pictures of two irreconcilable opposites in the spiritual world.
Let's keep in mind that a temple of God can never be erected in Babylon. That is why the Lord tells His people who still live in that city to abandon it. They have to turn back from their erroneous ways and walk on the living way, the high road that will take them to the top of Mount Zion, where the Lamb is and the hundred and forty four thousand, the great multitude which no man can number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues.
On the day of Pentecost the spiritual man received his potential and the natural significance of these cities ceased to exist. Just as Jesus pictured the truths of the Kingdom of heaven in parables, so the histories of these biblical nations also hide spiritual realities. Similarly, the Lord transposed the meaning of the manna in the desert, the water from the rock, the pillar of cloud and of fire, and the temple and its sacrifices. The man of God is not concerned with the archeology of Babel; neither is he concerned with geographical Jerusalem, for his citizenship is now in heaven.
On Pentecost emerged the first-born of a people who have visions, dreams and prophesies which are all evidence of moving and functioning in the unseen world of the spirits.
In Babylon a tower is being built by means of spiritual abilities to keep the divided and confused people together, (aka: apostate church). In the same way, Jesus Christ in these latter days is building a temple of conquerors, a house of God in the heavenly Jerusalem.
It should be noted however, that the tower of Babel is a very unstable edifice becuase its foundation is a ruin and its structure is after the ideas of Satan whose intention is to lead the Christians astray and to suffocate the work of God. On the contrary, God's temple is based on a solid and strong foundation, namely on the work and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Its structure is in accordance with God's eternal counsel, after the working of the Holy Spirit, and its purpose is to restore the entire creation.
The time is drawing near when the temple of God will be finished, when the large columns will be put in place. When the sons of God have reached the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, they will have become the pillars of the house of God, for: "He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it", (Rev 3:12). By the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells in them, the conquerors will have become invulnerable for the powers of sin, sickness and falsehood. That is why they will never go out of the sanctuary, for they are a blameless priesthood.
When the faithful have achieved their fulness, this promise will be fulfilled: "We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet". The harvest of the earth, fully ripened, will then be gathered, that is, detached from the earth. The mortal, perishable body will be swallowed up in the immortal, imperishable, spiritual body (1Cor 15:50-58). Then the congregation will completely be in the heavenly places with her Lord and King.
But the tower of Babel is rapidly approaching its completion too, and its top will soon reach the heavens, (Gen 11:4). About the builders of the tower it also says: "Nothing that they propose to do will be impossible for them", (Gen 11:6). Jesus said that for those who believe, nothing will be impossible as far as their struggle in the heavenly places is concerned. Any man who is led by a spirit and completely surrenders to the guidance of that spirit, is capable of super-human (supernatual) things. In the endtime the sons of perdition, (those who are filled with the spirit of antichrist), will be opposed by the sons of God who are filled with the Holy Spirit.
In the battle of Armageddon the sons of God will defeat the armies of antichrist in the heavenly places. Then the Scripture will be fulfilled: "In that day the Lord, (by means of His Church), with His hard and great and strong sword, (His word), will punish Leviathan, the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent and will slay the dragon that is in the sea", (Isaiah 27:1).
Hey Yall.........
Gilbert quote: Every miracle was proof of Jesus' power over Satan. It was a demonstration of Christ's right to establish His rule on earth.
In Colossians 2:15 we find a confirmation of this: it says there that on the cross Jesus disarmed the powers and principalities and made a public example of them. Until the cross, Satan was able to demand full control of the world. He had made himself the prince of the powers of the air and the god of this age, and this meant that his power on earth was virtually
RLV:
You know, "we" are the "earth" you are describing up there......it is
"we" in whom the Christ in us, constantly takes over our "territory"
that "has been" under the influence of satan. Jesus takes "full control"
of US. The last enemy in us being the carnal mind
we were given in being born after adam. Not even a "thought" of that
mindset that wars the Spirit will be left when Jesus says over US, "It
is finished."
Concerning satan not being given control of the "whole" world, he sure
has not been..........one place in the old testament, says this: "other
lords have had dominion of our bodies." And so
Romans 8 says we wait for the "redemption of our bodies". Now
a "vile body" mentioned in the scripture is one that is vile......corruptible.
But 1st Cor. says to me plainly that not "all" shall sleep to the reality
that "change" shall come to some. I think I am beginning to see that
"change" as something other than the "new body" but the "changed
body" while still here on earth. I believe we already have, all of us,
a "reserved body." An inner man body. Paul wrote of the experiences
he had and said he didn't know if he was "in the body" or "out of it"
only God knew.
Well, anyway I am in line for mine. ha
Why wouldn't God do it? He has done so much, I do not believe anything impossible with God. So he has a good subject out of ME
to show forth His Glory. But it must be sought for HIS Glory and not
just for "me." Probably. This "change" is gonna happen in a moment,]
in a twinkling of an eye.
Now, MOLLY I will say a word on the last battle of
that carnal mind......some call it Armageddon, and for sure that mindset
whispers lies in us, which we have to PUT DOWN and with God's help,
every bit of it will be PUT down in God's Time. Work "with" Him! When
we see things in the Spirit, God has brought them down before our face
and that is the time to "work with HIM." It is a sure sign God has given
"us" authority to "drive them out". . I used to visualize the principalities,
powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness as that last one
being UP higher than others. God shows those whatever they are...ha
and "us" ......His Triumph over all things. I think there is a verse of
scripture that says "and now unto the princapalities, be known, might
be known, by the church" etc. Well, that's us in our imperfect state.
When we reach full perfection, by the Grace of God, I don't think there
will ever be another battle. And we shall enter His glorious REST.
Blessings.........
Quote from: Redlettervoice on September 07, 2009, 09:09:09 PM
Hey Yall.........
Gilbert
RLV:
Hi! RedLetterVoice
I'm goin' tuh tell yuh sumthin' dat yuh jus' won't beleev:
See this? RLV:
I had seen it used occasionally in here and I just assumed it was some kinna' abbreviated reference to a Bible translation of some sort ... yuh know? Like KJV 'er NAV 'er whatever.
So, today when RLV showed up yet again, I thought that I should at least make an effort to GoogleSearch 'er whatever to find that particular RLV Translation to better grasp what you were meaning to say in the Thread.
But I first swirled the letters around in my head trying to figure out what RLV could possibly infer. I sortta' guessed that the letter V was meaning VERSION ... but the RL had me stumped.
Suddenly, it dawned on me, dunno why I had not disciphered it before.
Much to my chagrin, I have to say that this entire story is true.
I think Old-Zymers might be catchin' up to me; now past sixty years, my mind is not as alert as before.
Quote from: Gilbert on September 08, 2009, 02:44:33 AM
Quote from: Redlettervoice on September 07, 2009, 09:09:09 PM
Hey Yall.........
Gilbert
RLV:
Hi! RedLetterVoice
I'm goin' tuh tell yuh sumthin' dat yuh jus' won't beleev:
See this? RLV:
I had seen it used occasionally in here and I just assumed it was some kinna' abbreviated reference to a Bible translation of some sort ... yuh know? Like KJV 'er NAV 'er whatever.
So, today when RLV showed up yet again, I thought that I should at least make an effort to GoogleSearch 'er whatever to find that particular RLV Translation to better grasp what you were meaning to say in the Thread.
But I first swirled the letters around in my head trying to figure out what RLV could possibly infer. I sortta' guessed that the letter V was meaning VERSION ... but the RL had me stumped.
Suddenly, it dawned on me, dunno why I had not disciphered it before.
Much to my chagrin, I have to say that this entire story is true.
I think Old-Zymers might be catchin' up to me; now past sixty years, my mind is not as alert as before.
Thats funny, especially the Old Zymers catching up... :laughing7:
Well I know about that too........ha. "Other lords beside thee have
had dominion over what? our "bodies." Well, it is in line to be "changed"
........the corruptible part is going to "change" in a twinkling of an eye.
And the veil cast over us called the fleshly carnal mind passed down
to us thru the dna of a first adam, will be GONE!!!! No more Alzhemiers.
No more scar tissue in the head from brain surgery. No more cholestrol.
No more emotions being rattled. PEACE like a river. Flowing ever.
It shall "flow" like a River, ...........God is not done, yet, except just as
He was done, before the foundation of the world. He sees it, and is
showing it to "us."
And I pray that YOUR bodies, soul, and spirit. be preserved unto the
coming of the Lord. 1st Pet. 1:9 '"receiving the END of your faith,
even the salvation of your soul."
Ok.........there's the soul and spirit.
Next: The body.
Well, hang in there with me and "believe." It is written.
Quote from: SQ on September 08, 2009, 02:50:58 AM
Quote from: Gilbert on September 08, 2009, 02:44:33 AM
Quote from: Redlettervoice on September 07, 2009, 09:09:09 PM
Hey Yall.........
Gilbert
RLV:
Hi! RedLetterVoice
I'm goin' tuh tell yuh sumthin' dat yuh jus' won't beleev:
See this? RLV:
I had seen it used occasionally in here and I just assumed it was some kinna' abbreviated reference to a Bible translation of some sort ... yuh know? Like KJV 'er NAV 'er whatever.
So, today when RLV showed up yet again, I thought that I should at least make an effort to GoogleSearch 'er whatever to find that particular RLV Translation to better grasp what you were meaning to say in the Thread.
But I first swirled the letters around in my head trying to figure out what RLV could possibly infer. I sortta' guessed that the letter V was meaning VERSION ... but the RL had me stumped.
Suddenly, it dawned on me, dunno why I had not disciphered it before.
Much to my chagrin, I have to say that this entire story is true.
I think Old-Zymers might be catchin' up to me; now past sixty years, my mind is not as alert as before.
Thats funny, especially the Old Zymers catching up... :laughing7:
Hi! SQ
Well, at leest I didn't try an' blame it on duh 'Carnal Mind', ay? :grin:
I've noticed that the phrase 'carnal mind' can jus' 'bout explain everything these days; it seems to have become the ultimate catch-phrase for all things remaining incomprehensible.
The confession of those in here who explain every kind of frailty as the 'carnal mind' is like that of Saul of Tarsis who, when he was unregenerate, had great diligence for God but afterwards had to admit that he didn't do the good (which he wanted) but rather the evil (which he didn't want). Quite incorrectly, some people continue to think that this confession of impotence can also be applied to a regenerate reborn Christian.
Their 'old nature' and/or 'carnal mind' is in their way, these folks keep trying to tell us.
But Paul says that he who is in Christ has become a new creation, that everything old has passed away, and the new has come.
Our old nature is dead . . . crucified with Christ, dead and buried.
So, every time that I hear these people moaning about having to deal with their old nature and 'carnal mind', I want to ask them: why it is that you continue to have contact with a dead person?
The Bible only uses the term Christian for the man in Christ; the spiritual man. Consequently, a so-called carnal Christian does not exist.
But 'ordinary' men of 'the flesh' do exist; and some of these are choosing to name themselves as 'carnal Christians'. The apostle said to the Corinthians: 'For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men?' (1Cor 3:3). The carnal Corinthians were those who refused set their mind on the things above. Instead, they occupied themselves with earthly matters and earthly solutions.
Where in the Bible does it say that it's quite alright to know ourselves or anyone else after the flesh? There is no way in which we still share in our old, natural stature; because the new has come and it leaves no room for the old whatsoever.
But, some might insist: if the old, carnal nature has really been crucified with Christ, can't it possibly ever rear its ugly head again? My answer is: of course it can't.
When a Christian reacts in the flesh, it is not that he is troubled by his old nature. After all, the unregenerate, natural life has ceased to exist. No, the truth is that he is being intimidated by the old serpent, the father of lies. This master of falsehood and deceit will always try to convince these people that their old nature has somehow re-appeared and re-invented itself and become too strong for them; a supposed carnal mind has inexplicably become predominant.
For the devil, this cuts two ways:
First, he convinces the person of having a carnal disposition and at the same time he succeeds in making for himself a very effective camouflage. Lacking the necessary scriptural discernment, such persons accept the deceit and fall back into the old ways of thinking and living: manifesting themselves as unchanged persons.
As such, they begin in the Spirit and end up in the flesh.
Let's dispose of any thought that the body in itself, of itself, inherently, harbours anything that is against the plans and purposes of God. Although death has entered the human body, the human body did not become the originator of sinful behavior. In Romans 7:15-25, Paul uses the word 'I' to refer to several different aspects of his personality, all in the same breath, but he does not blame himself for his problems. He blames the powers of sin dwelling within himself, (verses 17, 20 and 23).
Since the Fall, Satan has had mankind as his toy. He is 'the god of this world'. Powers of darkness have been accustomed to perverting proper human needs and appetites. Before we met Christ we had an equilibrium of comfort in this system. We regarded all kinds of awful things as being normal, natural, unavoidable.
But now we are walking in another direction and under new management. Satan does not sit back with a philosophical sigh and say, 'Ah well, too bad, another one taken from my kingdom'. Satan fights tooth and nail. He uses scriptural ignorance, partial knowledge, pride, fear, etc. etc. Whom he cannot kill, he seeks to cripple.
And so it ends up that people are confessing all sorts of self-accusing ideas, (such as having a carnal mind and a depraved nature), and are blaming themselves for the things which the evil one is doing to and through them.
Quote from: RLVNow, MOLLY I will say a word on the last battle of
that carnal mind......some call it Armageddon, and for sure that mindset
whispers lies in us, which we have to PUT DOWN and with God's help,
every bit of it will be PUT down in God's Time. Work "with" Him! When
we see things in the Spirit, God has brought them down before our face
and that is the time to "work with HIM." It is a sure sign God has given
"us" authority to "drive them out".
I have thought about what you said for a while, and I have concluded that this is what truth does. Whenever we tell the truth about something [whistleblowers] or learn the truth, and face and accept it, we are winning the battle in the heavenlies.
Why, then, do people reject and avoid truth so aggressively [i.e. denial]?
This is a characteristic of the human mind that Satan can count on.
They have to count the cost.
But, God is always on our side, thus he will keep bringing the truth before our face, as you put it, until we see it clearly and are unafraid to act.
And, this battle today, between truth and lies, is as great as I've ever seen it.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2009, 05:07:40 PM
Quote from: RLVNow, MOLLY I will say a word on the last battle of
that carnal mind......some call it Armageddon, and for sure that mindset
whispers lies in us, which we have to PUT DOWN and with God's help,
every bit of it will be PUT down in God's Time. Work "with" Him! When
we see things in the Spirit, God has brought them down before our face
and that is the time to "work with HIM." It is a sure sign God has given
"us" authority to "drive them out".
I have thought about what you said for a while, and I have concluded that this is what truth does. Whenever we tell the truth about something [whistleblowers] or learn the truth, and face and accept it, we are winning the battle in the heavenlies.
Why, then, do people reject and avoid truth so aggressively [i.e. denial]?
This is a characteristic of the human mind that Satan can count on.
They have to count the cost.
But, God is always on our side, thus he will keep bringing the truth before our face, as you put it, until we see it clearly and are unafraid to act.
And, this battle today, between truth and lies, is as great as I've ever seen it.
Hi! Molly
I was reading your comments here and was struck by the straight forward manner of you saying, "this battle today, between truth and lies".
Yes, as you correctly stated: it's a battle ... a war.
We can learn from the story of the destruction of Jericho that, in the battle between truth and falsehood, we often have to surround such a city to make it collapse: this means having to directly confront the lies to gain the victory.
Quote from: Gilbert on September 08, 2009, 05:47:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2009, 05:07:40 PM
Quote from: RLVNow, MOLLY I will say a word on the last battle of
that carnal mind......some call it Armageddon, and for sure that mindset
whispers lies in us, which we have to PUT DOWN and with God's help,
every bit of it will be PUT down in God's Time. Work "with" Him! When
we see things in the Spirit, God has brought them down before our face
and that is the time to "work with HIM." It is a sure sign God has given
"us" authority to "drive them out".
I have thought about what you said for a while, and I have concluded that this is what truth does. Whenever we tell the truth about something [whistleblowers] or learn the truth, and face and accept it, we are winning the battle in the heavenlies.
Why, then, do people reject and avoid truth so aggressively [i.e. denial]?
This is a characteristic of the human mind that Satan can count on.
They have to count the cost.
But, God is always on our side, thus he will keep bringing the truth before our face, as you put it, until we see it clearly and are unafraid to act.
And, this battle today, between truth and lies, is as great as I've ever seen it.
Hi! Molly
I was reading your comments here and was struck by the straight forward manner of you saying, "this battle today, between truth and lies".
Yes, as you correctly stated: it's a battle ... a war.
We can learn from the story of the destruction of Jericho that, in the battle between truth and falsehood, we often have to surround such a city to make it collapse: this means having to directly confront the lies to gain the victory.
Yes! And, those walls come down when the seven trumpets are blown on the seventh day. And guess who blows the trumpets? The priests in the Old Testament, the angels in the New--and that would be us--prophets, priests, and kings. O Lord Jesus, raise up your brothers!
Let us blow the trumpets with a great shout!
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
PS what is the trumpet?
It is the voice of God.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
--Rev 1
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2009, 06:46:25 PM
PS what is the trumpet?
It is the voice of God.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
--Rev 1
I would like to quote something from a WebSite which I think basically sums it all up:
God's Spirit is at work with great power --- and who can stem the tide!
God desires to bring about real renewal, genuine freedom and the bold songs of triumph in our lives.
We find ourselves alive in a generation where the key of knowledge has been lost from among the Christian community. To triumph over sin and and the powers of death it is necessary to have a knowledge of the kingdom of heaven and its laws. Jesus supplied the insights needed for this. Often He did it by means of parables; not because the parables always made things instantly clear to everybody who heard them; for the unspiritual man 'would indeed hear but never understand', and 'indeed see but never perceive.' On the other hand, Jesus said to his spiritually-minded hearers, "blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear". This teaching of Jesus is to be found in Matthew 13:11 .
In the eighth chapter of Romans Paul writes that the Law of the Spirit of Life has made us free from the Law of Sin and Death. Since this is so, it is no longer necessary for us to learn the ten commandments by heart but it is utterly essential for us to discover the laws of the spiritual world. How can we do battle in the heavenly places unless we know what weapons need to be used there? How can we defend ourselves spiritually unless we are aware of the ghostly armor which gives protection against the fiery arrows of the enemy? How can we hope to bring about the healing and deliverance of others if we ourselves are not aware of the rules of that Kingdom of God and the righteousness upon which those rules are based?
An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules", writes the apostle Paul in 2Timothy. It is a principle to which Paul was no stranger, for he writes again in 1Corinthians: "I do not run aimlessly - I do not box as one who beats the air." The individual disciple cannot fight against sin on the spiritual battlefield unless he first discovers how the spirits of darkness work and the manner in which God's Spirit and the angels work together with him as a child of God in the battle for restoration. Paul declared that the Spirit of God searches out all things, even the depths of God Himself, and that this same Spirit is He who dwells in us.
As far as the kingdom of darkness is concerned, the apostle made the observation that the thoughts of Satan were not unknown to him. 'For we have received the Spirit of God so that we can understand the gifts which God has bestowed upon us.' It is the Holy Spirit Himself who gives us insight and develops within us the gift of knowledge of the unseen world and the ability to discern between good and evil. If we, as disciples of Jesus Christ in these difficult times, desire to be a spiritual people we need an acute knowledge of the world of the spirits. Our own spirits must learn to take their place in the heavenly places and to regard the situations in which we find ourselves from the vantage point of this position.
If we have as yet little or no knowledge or insight in the spiritual world we should not fall into the trap of camouflaging this lack by pretending that it is a part of our Christian simplicity. On the contrary, we must become enthusiastic for the spiritual gifts and endeavor to gain more spiritual knowledge from the word of God. Long ago the Old Testament prophet had complained: "My people are being destroyed (succomb to darkness) through their lack of knowledge", (Hos 4:6).
Spiritual life is not a matter of intense seriousness and devotion, emotion or concentration or getting up early, going to bed late, after long prayer meetings. It is rather the matter of realizing a citizenship in the heavenly places, a walk there, and also a thought life which has the constant habit of occupying itself with things that are above; the battle and victory in the heavenly places.
Yes, that's why God takes our manchild to heaven--to keep him safe, and pure--to keep us with the Lord.
This is how we walk in the heavenlies with God and fight the spiritual battle as angels of the Lord of hosts.
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
--Rev 12
God catches up her child to his throne--
Guess what that word is?--the same word used for the rapture in 1Th4.
"was caught up" [unto God]
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
The 'rapture'
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--1 Thess 4
"shall be caught up" [together with them in the clouds]
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
We are walking in two countries at the same time, citizen of one, ambassador to another.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Rev 12
Hey Gilbert, I've finally caught up with you on this thread . . .whew!
I did want to throw out a couple thoughts as to where I am with the "carnal mind". As I'm seeing things a bit differently in that particular arena. For me, it's understanding that we have all been given the authority to bring life or death to ourselves, the body, and outside the body of Christ. The power of the tongue. Our words can resurrect, and they can destroy. Our thoughts can do the same. We have the image of Christ in our very being. What image is Chirst to me? Resurrection.
He didn't come to die, he came to bring resurrection. But to do so, he first had to die. What good is it to die for someone if there is no life to manifest as a result? So what in me dies? My flesh? my carnality? If it's dead, then how can I still be tempted by it? If it is truly dead, then how does Paul still have this battle going on within him? Sounds to me like the carnality is still alive.
For me, I have the power in Chirst to call my "self" into order. Into God's order. My mind of carnality is to fall into submission to my spirit. It's still alive, but it's power is what has lost it's punch. The only way the carnality in me can influence me, is when I give it back it's power.
Death, hell, and the grave are all cast into the lake of fire in the end. Are we in the end? I believe we are "of" the end, but the end is not yet complete in us. We are given dominion over it, we see it as dead, but only in faith. What is faith? Believing in what you can't see, accepting things you don't understand. Why am I not to lean on my own undertstanding? Because when my mind is left to it's own devices, it will only lead to sin and death all over again.
In Revelation, there is a dragon with seven heads. The dragon is the serpent of old, the devil, and it's satan . . .all of which are within every one of us. It's representive of our minds. Our mind is the craftiest beast in all the earth, our minds are always the adversary (definition of satan) to spiritual matters, and our minds must always find the blame in someone or something as a conclusion of reasoning. It's as science states, there is a scientific reason why everything happens. Why? That's how the mind works. It's how it was created to work. It thrives on proof rather than faith.
So, this dragon with seven heads . . .seven is the number of completion, the "head" again, is the central station of where the mind resides. You put that all together, the dragon is the nature of the carnal man, the head is the mind of man and seven is the full completion of the carnality of man. Yet one of the heads was, then was not, but now is.
When was the beast overthrown? At the cross. When Jesus died, the power of sin died with him. But then religious men, misusing the power of resurrection, turned around and resurrected that which was to remain dead. In the end, all things return to God who created them, including the beast, the dragon, death, the grave . . .all of it. But the key here is, that we be careful what we resurrect in ourselves.
it's like being delivered from Alcoholism. You can be free from it for years, but then, you choose to go back and have a beer and that which was dead, comes alive all over again. The key is not bringing death to all things. The key is to coming into spiritual order in all things.
QuoteThe dragon is the serpent of old, the devil, and it's satan . . .all of which are within every one of us. It's representive of our minds. Our mind is the craftiest beast in all the earth, our minds are always the adversary (definition of satan) to spiritual matters, and our minds must always find the blame in someone or something as a conclusion of reasoning. It's as science states, there is a scientific reason why everything happens. Why? That's how the mind works. It's how it was created to work. It thrives on proof rather than faith.
no. There is a true science and a fake science, a sound mind and an insane mind--but, people are often confused which is which.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
So Molly, are you then saying there is a natural explanation to a miraculous healing?
Some excellent things spoken here. Thanks Nathan.
When you think about the "govenor" ruling the IMAGInations,
our minds, you can see that He is taking it over
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2009, 08:59:34 PM
For me, it's understanding that we have all been given the authority to bring life or death to ourselves, the body, and outside the body of Christ. The power of the tongue. Our words can resurrect, and they can destroy
Our thoughts can do the same. We have the image of Christ in our very being. What image is Christ to me? Resurrection.
He didn't come to die, he came to bring resurrection. But to do so, he first had to die. What good is it to die for someone if there is no life to manifest as a result? So what in me dies? My flesh? my carnality? If it's dead, then how can I still be tempted by it? If it is truly dead, then how does Paul still have this battle going on within him? Sounds to me like the carnality is still alive.
For me, I have the power in Chirst to call my "self" into order. Into God's order. My mind of carnality is to fall into submission to my spirit. It's still alive, but it's power is what has lost it's punch. The only way the carnality in me can influence me, is when I give it back it's power.
Death, hell, and the grave are all cast into the lake of fire in the end. Are we in the end? I believe we are "of" the end, but the end is not yet complete in us. We are given dominion over it, we see it as dead, but only in faith.
.
In Revelation, there is a dragon with seven heads. .
It thrives on proof rather than faith.So, this dragon with seven heads . . .seven is the number of completion, the "head" again, is the central station of where the mind resides. You put that all together, the dragon is the nature of the carnal man, the head is the mind of man and seven is the full completion of the carnality of man. Yet one of the heads was, then was not, but now is.
When was the beast overthrown?
At the cross.
Quote from: NathanSo Molly, are you then saying there is a natural explanation to a miraculous healing?
I didn't say that, although I could probably argue that actually. In other words, I could argue that is it dis-ease which is unnatural, not health.
What I said is--there is real science and there is a sound mind, two things which I think you denied, and for that matter, the two are completely compatible.
I've been reading that article put out on another thread about men as trees walking . . . a super read.
I kinda wanted to clarify just a bit to my last post in dealing with the part of us that we're supposed to kill. As I mentioned, I don't think we're the ones that kill carnality. And I don't think God has brought it to it's death either. I think it remains alive for his use to strengthen us in his power and authority. What I believe actually dies in us is not our carnality, but our carnal "nature". What's the difference?
My mind not only is a womb, but it's also a reflection of who's in control in "me". You can't keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep it from making a nest in your hair. For me, the birds are thoughts. I can't keep all negative, dark, or carnal thoughts from entering my mind, but I can keep those thoughts from taking up residence in my thinking. The latter is by choice. I can choose to dwell on the darkness, or I can choose to override it with more constructive thoughts. I have the God-given authority to aim my spiritual eye (eyes are the windows to my soul/mind) toward any given activity as I so choose.
It's as Paul states, I can do anything I want. It's just that not everything I choose is beneficial. In other words, there are consequences for the descisions I make, both good consequences and bad. Whatever I choose to observe is what I begin to reflect on to others.
In this analogy aligning with Eve being my mind and Adam being my spirit, Scripture states that Eve will desire after Adam . . .in other words, my mind will always want control. I'll always want the hard proof. I don't want to receive anything from you in faith, I want you to post at least 10 Scriptures before I'll accept what you have to say as truth. That's not faith, that's knowledge. My Eve desires after my Spirit. My mind longs to control "me". But God immediately follows that up with "But he shall rule over you".
Which is not saying physically men are to be dominant over their wives, as much as it's saying my spirit has authority and power over my mind. So what happened with Adam? If he had that authority, how did Eve get his attention? Taf had posted this on my facebook the other day . . .blew me away . .. still does when I meditate on it.
Proverbs 18:21
Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Adam ate the fruit not because he was duped into doing so, but because he turned his affections toward it, and it changed him. Instead of subduing his earth, which God gives all of us power over, "our" earth (inwardly speaking) is our flesh, it is the carnality that attempts to deceive our minds. We've been given power over that craving, but we need to exercise it . . .Adam didn't. The next chapter we see the same language used with Cain. God told him that sin was at the door "desiring" after him but he shall "rule" over it. Obviously, Cain didn't fare any better than Adam did.
But the point to all of this is, I have the power, not to put carnality to death, but to put my own nature to death and as I turn my attention toward Christ, he aligns and empowers me to bring those thoughts into captivity. 2 Corinthians 10. Having a renewed mind is not something I can do of my own power. I can do only what I'm empowered to do. I can submit myself before the Father, and I can take captive carnality, and put to death the old man, my old carnal nature. But again, if I turn away from Christ, I'm resurrecting the old man all over again. Adam had power to bring life and death, he chose death and God honored his decision.
I have that same ability to bring life, death, and if I can bring life to something, that means i have the power of resurrection in me. I just need to be aware that I can be just as destructive by resurrecting things that should be left dead, than I can by putting things to death that should never be experiencing life in me in the first place.
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2009, 11:17:06 PM
Quote from: NathanSo Molly, are you then saying there is a natural explanation to a miraculous healing?
I didn't say that, although I could probably argue that actually. In other words, I could argue that is it dis-ease which is unnatural, not health.
What I said is--there is real science and there is a sound mind, two things which I think you denied, and for that matter, the two are completely compatible.
I don't see myself denying either of these, but I'll not argue this any further. I'm not seeing any benefit in the dissection of it.
Quote from: Nathan on September 08, 2009, 11:33:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2009, 11:17:06 PM
Quote from: NathanSo Molly, are you then saying there is a natural explanation to a miraculous healing?
I didn't say that, although I could probably argue that actually. In other words, I could argue that is it dis-ease which is unnatural, not health.
What I said is--there is real science and there is a sound mind, two things which I think you denied, and for that matter, the two are completely compatible.
I don't see myself denying either of these, but I'll not argue this any further. I'm not seeing any benefit in the dissection of it.
Ok, then, maybe we agree, after all. As you say above, the mind is the arena where we can be tricked by satan. Eve was deceived. She believed his lies. But we are given the tools to protect our minds, as you said, the helmet of salvation, the ability to take every thought captive [and compare it to Christ], and the illumination of Spirit. We are the children of the light. We are able to have sound minds, and are given such by God.
I don't believe, myself, that this is something satanic which is inside of us. The Bible always shows it coming from the outside. It can enter into us, but from the outside, even describing the Devil throwing fiery darts at us to penetrate. Because we are in these flesh bodies, we have a weakness, called the 'carnal mind.' The 'carnal mind' is literally the purposes and inclinations of the flesh--or what one could call the ' mind of the flesh.'
Carnal mind= sarx phronema [Rom 8:7]
But we have been given a sound mind by God.
Sound mind= sōphronismos [2 Tim 1:7]
Yeah, we've been "given" a sound mind, but it's up to us to exercise that. Adam had authority, but he didn't use it. I have a sound mind, we all have sound minds, but having one, and walking in one are two separate issues. I find that certain areas of my everyday life actually accomodate the exercising, and other areas in my everyday life seem to hinder me exercising it. It's a process of maturity I guess.
1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
"mind" [of Christ]
G3563
νοῦς
nous
nooce
Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding. Compare G5590.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
--Phil 3
"reaching forth" [unto those things which are before]
G1901
ἐπεκτείνομαι
epekteinomai
ep-ek-ti'-nom-ahee
Middle voice from G1909 and G1614; to stretch (oneself) forward upon: - reach forth.