I have three questions.

[Nathan]

He will return again to reveal himself to the world. His perfected saints with him.

As I said, Paul received the Spirit from the risen Christ, yet he knew he had not yet attained the resurrection of the dead. As it bears repeating, what Paul received was the likeness of the resurrection. Which is why he spoke about the future..

The reason I "assumed" what I assumed was because your statement is implying a future event, which for me isn't yet to come, but already has come.  That's why I commented about still staring at the clouds.  Your comments seem to indicate that Christ is coming in the future to reveal himself to the world . . .and perfected saints with him . . .

I'm seeing that he's already come to us and as we enter into that ascended place "now", we join in with those who've gone on before us.  It's not the traditional coming of the Lord the church preaches about where it's a physical return and a physical revealing to an outer world.  But it's an inner return to my inner man, revealing truth to the worldliness "in" me.

Sorry for the offense.

[Seth]

you have conflated physicality with future events. In the future God will be all in all, when comes the end. That something will happen in the future does not mean a PHYSICAL understanding of it. That was the assumption you made. There is nothing wrong with saying something will happen in the future and that DOES NOT indicate a physical expectation.

No offense was taken bro, I just wanted that to be clear.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...

Card, are you specifically talking of a SPIRITUAL resurrection then - the one while still in the body?  Do you specifically believe this body of flesh will one day stop breathing, i.e., die?  All the aforementioned is what I personally believe.

It seems to me that some are confusing the terms physical and spiritual, and I think your answer to that question would help clarify this (or not  :laughing7:).  Thanks, James.

:cloud9: I specifically believe that He is the resurrection and the life, and that if we believe that we'll never die, as He told the Samaritan woman. I also believe that this mortality is going to be swallowed up of immortality, if we believe the above.  Blessings....

Death will be destroyed in the end, regardless of what man believes. Let God be true and every man a liar.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.

I agree, nobody defeats death simply by dying.

Acts 2:23-29
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


I repeat, I never said that death is destroyed by dying. I said that resurrection destroys death, and that is proved by the likeness of the resurrection. What destroys our sinful flesh, the resurrected life with in us. That likeness sheds light on the fact that on the third day, Jesus was "loosed from the pains of death." It isn't that Jesus didn't die. He did die for our sins. It was that on the third day, he was raised and loosed from death.

This gave hope to David, who IS both DEAD and BURIED. This of course conforms with Hebrews 11 which states that the patriarchs died WITHOUT receiving the promise (which was Christ by the Spirit) that they WOULD NOT BE PERFECTED WITHOUT US.

Christ was clear that on the THIRD DAY he would be perfected, and Paul was also clear that he was not perfected either since he had not attained the resurrection of the dead. He certainly attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection, but until flesh and blood is cast away, he knew he was not perfected.

Phillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.

Actually that is exactly what he says.

Phillipians 3:10-16
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Our transformation from being the earthly man, to being conformed unto the Heavenly man REQUIRES a casting away of the flesh because it cannot receive heavenly things. In our flesh is no good thing, as Scripture says (Romans 7). The conforming to Christ's death is a PROCESS.

This process STARTS with what the Bible calls "the likeness of" Christ's resurrection. That is when the conforming process begins while we are alive and believe on Christ (not to "die in the aion"). Paul received that gift, the Holy Spirit. Yet he knew it was only the beginning.

As John said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." The reason we have sin is due to the body of this death. Now, we have been delivered of this body in our minds in the sense that we need not walk in slavery to it. However we still groan in this tent to be clothed of immortality and be delivered completely.

This is why Paul said "I am not already perfect" and why he said that he had not already attained the resurrection from the dead. The likeness of the resurrection (receiving the Holy Spirit) sheds light on the resurrection itself. The life of Christ resurrects us from death in sin. What does the resurrection do? Delivers us from death. If you don't die, you don't need resurrection. If Paul had already died, he didn't need to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD.

To attain the resurrection from the dead, one must BE DEAD. Otherwise it would be called "the resurrection of the already living." Paul knew that except a seed go into the earth and die, resurrection will not happen.

The full process of being conformed to Christ's death goes like this:

1) We are dead in sin even as we are animated and conscious
2) We receive the Holy Spirit and attain the likeness of Christ's resurrection delivering us from the body of death
3) We still have sin even though we now do not abide in it because we still have a body which by its own nature lusts against the spirit
4) To be perfected we will attain the resurrection of the dead, by going into the earth as a seed, and being raised in power....no more flesh

That is the full process and the conforming STARTS with the receiving of the Spirit and is COMPLETED at perfection through the resurrection of (not the already living) the dead.

:cloud9: Hi Seth.........one problem with that........if Paul was talking about literally dying to attain, would it not have been OBVIOUS and redundant to say to all those seeing him standing there in shoe leather in front of them that he had not attained yet?  :winkgrin: He also said, "to reckon yourselves dead." Did he mean that literally, so they could "attain"?

If literal death to attain a resurrection was the best this covenant had to offer, then it would not be a BETTER covenant seeing how Elijah and Enoch didn't see death, and He would be a respecter of persons, to boot.

Also; when asked about divorce, the Lord told them that because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses allowed a bill of divorcement. Let me rephrase that according to what the words there mean. Hardness of heart means, "dull of hearing". So when we are dull of hearing what the Spirit has to say, "Moses", the letter understanding alone, will allow us to put away our "wife/flesh" = DIE.

Additionally, in Deut.7 the Israelites, our type and shadow people, were told that if they obeyed Him that He would put none of the curses of the Egyptians on them. Tenth curse; the death of the firstborn = first born of the FLESH (which makes it your firstborn), then of the Spirit.

Notice that it is the 10TH curse.....a tenth is a tithe. We are told to make ourselves a LIVING sacrifice on the "altar", ie. reckon ourselves dead, for the purpose of attaining the resurrection while still in the body (ie. LIVING). Blessings....  

[Seth]

 

Hi Seth.........one problem with that........if Paul was talking about literally dying to attain, would it not have been OBVIOUS and redundant to say to all those seeing him standing there in shoe leather in front of them that he had not attained yet?   He also said, "to reckon yourselves dead." Did he mean that literally, so they could "attain"?

Hi Card, peace and blessings to you. What he meant was this: That recieving the Holy Spirit is an attaining. Paul said that whatever you have attained, be so minded. We have attained the likeness of Christ's resurrection. Even so, Paul, RECOKING himself dead according to attaining the Spirit unto growth and perfect, knew that he was not perfected yet. He had not yet attained the resurrection of the dead.

What that means is that salvation from the flesh is as much two fold as as it was with Christ:

1) To be raised in the likeness of the resurrection, which is to be set free from abiding in sin. That is how we reckon ourselves dead.

2) To attain the resurrection of the dead (even though #1 is realized). That means that recieving the foretaste of future glory is NOT the resurrection of the dead. Therefore AS our minds were set free, we also shall be set free from mortality even as we now groan in this tent.

Paul did not say he hoped to attain the resurrection of the already living. So, because EVERYTHING he wrote concerning recieving the Spirit can be applied to Paul, that cancels out text-proofs of salvation from sin and receiving the Holy Spirit as mortals, as proofs also that we have already attained the resurrection.

In other words: since resurrection destroys death, Paul will attain the resurrection OF the dead, because he will be dead and then resurrected FROM the dead, DESPITE the scriptures which speak of a metaphoric resurrection from sin.

[Taffy]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

have you ever considered Seth, That This verse speaks after MAN, born of flesh , that which enmity, therefore carnally dead?
ALL liars are Cast into the LOF...tis the place for all flesh for mine. :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Mark 16:14  Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

The folly:

John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

The answer according to the folly:

John 20:27-29
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Why:

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But for those who do not need to see:

1 Cor 15:44-45
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

There is a natural body [carnal] and a spiritual body [spiritual].

The last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  I have looked at that scripture a long time.  Quickening means to make alive.

"quickening"

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.


Wow --so the second Adam [which we will be, like our brother] is a quickening spirit.  But what does that spirit quicken?  How about--his own body?

John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.


[that] "I might take" [it again]


G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).



Seen that word before anywhere?



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

[Seth]

Mark 16:14  Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

The folly:

John 20:25
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

The answer according to the folly:

John 20:27-29
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Why:

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But for those who do not need to see:

1 Cor 15:44-45
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

There is a natural body [carnal] and a spiritual body [spiritual].

The last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  I have looked at that scripture a long time.  Quickening means to make alive.

"quickening"

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.


Wow --so the second Adam [which we will be, like our brother] is a quickening spirit.  But what does that spirit quicken?  How about--his own body?

Quickening Spirit does not mean to be raised a natural body. Quickening means to give life. Our bodies ARE CHANGED from natural to spiritual according to resurrection.

Sown natural, RAISED spiritual.

We are not taking natural bodies with us. We are being changed over from natural to spiritual.

[Seth]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

have you ever considered Seth, That This verse speaks after MAN, born of flesh , that which enmity, therefore carnally dead?

Absolutely.

[Molly]

Quickening Spirit does not mean to be raised a natural body. Quickening means to give life. Our bodies ARE CHANGED from natural to spiritual according to resurrection.

Sown natural, RAISED spiritual.

We are not taking natural bodies with us. We are being changed over from natural to spiritual.

No one said anything about being raised a natural body.  The natural body is changed.   That's what the scripture says, we all shall be changed.  This could happen in any way--on the cellular level, dna, whatever....

Now wait--the spiritual body is raised out of the natural body, right?  It's not coming out of nowhere.  Why do you need a natural body to raise up a spiritual body?

When Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, isn't he talking about spiritually dead in the first case?  The natural body, then, is spiritually dead.

But, that's our starting point, not where we end up.

What does a natural body look like?  Or a spiritual body?  Jesus has shown us both, hasn't he?

Thomas touched him.  I heard what you had to say about that--that it was essentially a 'magic trick.'   But, that's not what is going on there.

What does it mean to be a quickening spirit?  What does it mean to be a spirit that can give life?  Give life to what?   A natural body which is dead?

This is not a spirit which is made alive--this is a spirit which makes alive.

Life works against death.  It is the only thing in the universe that works against death and decay.  And, what is our Lord, if not Life?  If we have him, do we not also have the resurrection and the life?  Do we not also have the quickening spirit?  And, what does that spirit quicken?



John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[Seth]

Now wait--the spiritual body is raised out of the natural body, right? 

No the Spiritual body is not raised OUT of the natural, rather it comes from heaven. It replaces the natural which is what the change from natural to spiritual is.

When Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, isn't he talking about spiritually dead in the first case?  The natural body, then, is spiritually dead.

No he is talking about the carnally minded burying the mortally sleeping.

What does a natural body look like?  Or a spiritual body?  Jesus has shown us both, hasn't he?

No he has shown us a Spiritual body in CONTRAST to a natural body which is able to answer a fool according to his folly.

The Bible says that to be raised in a spiritual body is to be raised in power. Would that include the power to appear MADE in order to bring understanding of that which is invisible? Of course.

Christ is shown to have been raised Spiritual IN CONTRAST to natural, and we know it is because there is an earthly body and a spiritual body. Where does Paul say the Spiritual body is? In heaven. Those bodies REPLACE our bodies, hence the change.

The Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural. When the spirit raises the dead it shows that the dead body has no spirit. Jesus gave up his spirit and died and remained dead for three days until God's spirit brought him back to life so that Christ could raise himself up and walk.

It just so happens that Spiritual bodies have the power to appear flesh so that the faithless can understand the invisible.

[martincisneros]

DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!
IT HAS NO PURPOSE IN LIFE!
IT IS WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DESTROY!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH DEATH??????????????????????????????

Amen, when Universalists cherish death as much as life, that's when I jump off the bandwaggon and say I'm not a Universalist 'cause my Bible calls it the enemy of my soul, of my God, the enemy of all I am, of all I've loved or ever will love, et. al.  Death is the enemy that all Christians are called to exercise their faith in cultivating the Written Word with and abolish alongside their Champion, Head, and Lord.  Death isn't cute and it's not unchallengeable because of what Christ has accomplished in the New Birth.  I didn't even know this thread was going on when I posted to facebook last night:

"Death is optional, irresponsible, unnecessary, and completely voluntary."

[Molly]

The Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.

But, he says it is.

We're talking farmer language, here.

The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.

No squash seed, no squash.


42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

--1 Cor 15

[Seth]

The Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.

But, he says it is.

We're talking farmer language, here.

The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.

No squash seed, no squash.


42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

--1 Cor 15

A Spiritual body is not raised out of the NATURAL body. Jesus Christ was in the EARTH as a dead seed. The spiritual body FROM HEAVEN (aka NOT from within the natural body) was given to him to replace the natural body, so that he was able to raise himself out of the earth.

[Molly]

The Spiritual is not raised up OUT of the natural.

But, he says it is.

We're talking farmer language, here.

The squash that comes from the squash seed would not be produced without the seed.

No squash seed, no squash.


42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

--1 Cor 15

A Spiritual body is not raised out of the NATURAL body. Jesus Christ was in the EARTH as a dead seed. The spiritual body FROM HEAVEN (aka NOT from within the natural body) was given to him to replace the natural body, so that he was able to raise himself out of the earth.

well...Let me put it this way.  Without a natural body, would anything have been raised?

[Seth]

No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.

The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.

[jabcat]

So it seems to me some are saying that without a) the physical body dying and b) being in the group at the last trump - that their current, physical body will never stop breathing.  I'm NOT discounting that our spirit immediately returns to God as Ecclesiastes states, that Christ has conquered the grave [He holds the keys], that He will resurrect us, and that we are newborn spiritually (resurrected) in this life (and the life to come) through belief, grace, and His blood.  That's what I believe.  Maybe there's more to see  :dontknow:.

No one other than WW has directly answered the direct, simple question whether or not they believe this current, mortal body will never stop breathing.  Interesting.  I'm trying to cut through the SEMANTICS of this conversation - it appears many are being quite creative, but to me, not altogether clear. 

P.S.  I agree with a lot of what others are saying, but Seth, you're saying much of what I would say if I had the time, ability, and patience.  Good job.

[jabcat]

Molly, I get a tickle out of your "we're talking farmer language here"  :smile:   :thumbsup:.

[Seth]

So it seems to me some are saying that without a) the physical body dying and b) being in the group at the last trump - that their current, physical body will never stop breathing.  I'm NOT discounting that our spirit immediately returns to God as Ecclesiastes states, that Christ has conquered the grave [He holds the keys], that He will resurrect us, and that we are newborn spiritually (resurrected) in this life (and the life to come) through belief, grace, and His blood.  That's what I believe.  Maybe there's more to see  :dontknow:.

No one other than WW has directly answered the direct, simple question whether or not they believe this current, mortal body will never stop breathing.  Interesting.  I'm trying to cut through the SEMANTICS of this conversation - it appears many are being quite creative, but to me, not altogether clear. 

P.S.  I agree with a lot of what others are saying, but Seth, you're saying much of what I would say if I had the time, ability, and patience.  Good job.

Don't hold your breath.  :laughing7:

Thanks bro.  :hihat:

[rosered]

  Did  anyone see   last Sunday night
  the I survived  series on   TV?  It was I survived... death   and  back

  3 people  spoke of  being  ''raised up out of the natural   body'' and   in the spirit realm/body    and life   after a  literal physical death ,  for sure  it is  certain .. I was excited about  all
  and just confirmation , because  we do at times even now experience the spiritual realm  as we breath  and go on ..
it is sooo cool ...  if you get a chance check it out
maybe a  second showing of that  particular '' I survived  ''series  will be cast on TV again

:HeartThrob: Rose

[jabcat]

Thanks bro.  :hihat:

You're welcome.  Ah, deep breath.  Good.  Thanks  :bigGrin:.

OK, in my admittedly limited view, I understand 3 ways to be resurrected to life.

1) this physical body die, be resurrected to immortality.

2) be in the last trump group that will not taste death at Jesus' physical, literal return

3) be resurrected spiritually while in this tent of flesh through believing on Him, receiving salvation (new creation, all things becoming new)

No mystical, elusive, one-liner rhetoric, please.  Not semantics or clever verbiage.  Does someone believe there's another way besides the above 3 means of resurrection, and if so, CLEARLY based on what (scriptural much preferred  :winkgrin:)?  

If not just for me, I think this thread needs to clear up for others who may be passing through the Tent.  Being creative/letting our imaginations loose may be one thing within the fam, but little eyes are watching  :cool:. 

EDIT:  Is being a "supernatural" Manifest Son of God what some of you are getting at as a "4th category"?  A relatively small group that may take on immortality outside the "natural" process?  Again, just please get clear and succinct here - that's what I'm asking.  Believe what you will, just please clarify so everyone knows what's actually being discussed.   

[Molly]

No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.

The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.

The 'water' comes from the quickening spirit.

Not sure what you mean about a freak hybrid mixture, lol, although I 've been called worse.

You are going to raise what you plant.  You don't plant a squash seed expecting to raise tomatoes.

[Seth]

No, for as the process goes: it is sown a natural body > it is raised a spiritual body.

The water does not come from the seed. It comes from above the ground. Then the seed is changed from seed to plant, not into a freak hybrid mixture of seed and plant.

The 'water' comes from the quickening spirit.

Not sure what you mean about a freak hybrid mixture, lol, although I 've been called worse.

You are going to raise what you plant.  You don't plant a squash seed expecting to raise tomatoes.

Well, I wasn't calling you that personally.

You don't raise a seed. The seed BECOMES something else.

You don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!

Paul's illustration of farmer's language shows that the one is CHANGED to be different from the other according to the body which comes from above and CHANGES the seed to a plant. Seeds are not plants and plants are not seeds. And plants are not combinations of seed and plant. The one replaces the other through the change.

[Molly]

Does someone believe there's another way besides the above 3 means of resurrection, and if so, CLEARLY based on what (scriptural much preferred  )?  

I think there might be things we don't know about, don't believe on, knowledge that has been suppressed, that gives a fourth option.

You are assuming the last trump happens at the same time for everyone.

We are given examples of people who have not died in the Old Testament.  How much more should that be possible in the New?  There is no doubt saints have been already raised from the dead and this is documented in the New Testament.

Seth wants to argue they are not immortal--but, how does he know?


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

--1 Cor 15


"in a moment"

G823
ἄτομος
atomos
at'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G5114; uncut, that is, (by implication) indivisible (an "atom" of time): - moment.



"a mystery"


G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.

[Molly]

You don't plant tomato seed, expecting to raise ....tomato seeds! You plant tomato seeds to get tomatoes!

Actually, you do get tomato seeds along with the tomato.  That's why--

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Our God runs a very orderly universe.

Plant a tomato seed, get a tomato.

And, He's a farmer.  :icon_king: