I have three questions.

[Beloved Servant]

Jab, we do not need to die, Jesus did it for us!
The myriads of Himself come from within and without.
He transforms us spiritually and physically in our most basic of being to our uttermost!

[sparrow]

DEATH IS THE ENEMY! THAT WHAT"S WRONG WITH IT!

Death is merely a doorway to life. I truly believe that.
But we know that what is seen is temporary and what is unseen is eternal.

Death can be an enemy to those on this side of the grave.
But it can also be a friend.
It is both.
Depending on your perspective.
I've had both perspectives in my life.
At the same time, even.

[Beloved Servant]

NO Sparrow, the Lord says it is an enemy NOT a doorway!
We MUST BELIEVE the Word of God.

[sparrow]

NO Sparrow, the Lord says it is an enemy NOT a doorway!
We MUST BELIEVE the Word of God.

HEB 2:14  Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their
humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of
death--that is, the devil--

15  and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear
of death.

I do not fear death.
Jesus has shown me by His death and ressurrection that we are no longer to fear.
Not that we WON'T die...but that death is no longer the enemy in our minds. We see that now in a spiritual sense because we see the "unseen". We know that while we are separated from loved ones who have died, we will be reunited. This is why Jesus told us not to grieve as those without hope. We have HOPE! Because of Jesus. Jesus conquered death. He has freed us from the slavery of the fear of death. Death does not have power over us any longer in the sense that we should not fear it. Not that it won't happen, but that we not fear. And at the resurrection, it will come full circle and death will be destroyed forever.
Well this is just the way I see it. "not all shall sleep" that's fine! I don't doubt that. But it doesn't say "ALL should NOT DIE!" it says "not all shall sleep".

2CO 1:9  Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this
happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the
dead.

10  He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us.
On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,

5:1  Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have
a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

2  Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

4  For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do
not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so
that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

8  We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and
at home with the Lord.

Well this is just where I'm at over here on my path and how I see it.

Perhaps we are just seeing things from different perspectives is all.

[Seth]

Sparrow, amen.  :thumbsup:

Jesus conqured death through a process: First he died. THEN he was resurrected.

That is the defeat of death. And now because he defeated and destroyed death, he holds the key. That is why, when we have attained the resurrection of the dead (I know people will read that and try to convince me that I already did, and use "the likeness" of the resurrection as proof   :thumbdown:) Christ will resurrect us as well.

[WhiteWings]

Death is the enemy. That's clear.
But less clear is how exactly it's the enemy...
a] Just simply being dead? -> For many death is a blessing. The sick and lonely to mention just two groups.
b] The fear of death as Sparrow mentioned?
c] Ageing. The body gets weaker and weaker. Often more sick on the path to old age. The path to death.

Points b and c can be combined with Sparrows view "a doorway" or "shall not sleep"
And when you step to the doorway for you personally the "last enemy" is defeated.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

he holds the key.

Key. Gates. Etc.
That kind of wording certainly doesn't debunk "a doorway"

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.

Phillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.

Also, that word CONFORMABLE there, comes from a word that means having the same form as another, to be fashioned like (as in like unto His glorious body) and has a root part of MORPHOO, which some of you no doubt will recognize from metaMORPHOO, which means to be transformed or transfigured, or changed. We see it used in these passages:

Mt 17:2 - And was TRANSFIGURED before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

and here:

Ro 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

and here:

2Co 3:18 -   But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

:cloud9: Notice that NONE of the above say a word about dying to attain anything, and also note the pattern Son, was shown to have this glorious body BEFORE HE DIED.

Now let's look at the next place we see that word conformed, which is here:

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

:cloud9: Now continuing with where we left off in Phillipians:


Phillipians 3:11- If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

3:12 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13 - Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

:cloud9: We were not apprehended so we could go peacefully to the grave. Those things Paul was forgetting that were BEHIND, were the tenets of the old covenant, which included the law of sin and DEATH. The reason we are not under the law of sin and death anymore is because we are supposed to be IN CHRIST, in whom there is NO DEATH.

3:14 - I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

:cloud9: The mark for the prize of the high calling which is in Christ Jesus, is the mind of Christ by which we are marked in our FOREHEADS, and which is typed and shadowed by the gold mitre which was as a band that went around the High Priest's forehead when he went in the Holy of Holies once on the day of atonement, and which read "Holiness Unto the Lord".

This is the exact opposite from the present ruler of THIS AGE (not a time measurement but a state of being), the carnal mind, the "Satan" who sits in the temple (know ye not ye are the temple of God?) declaring that he is God. No wonder also then, that to be carnally minded IS DEATH.

We are told to come boldly to the throne of grace, in this covenant. The throne is the place of authority of the King, which in type and shadow, was the ark of the covenant. Christ IS our ark of the covenant.

The thing about the Holy of Holies, was it was a type and shadowing of the 7th day reality which we can walk in NOW, and DO walk in now, if so be it we are IN CHRIST, who IS the 7th day, IS the resurrection and the life and IS "heaven". The dimensions of it were 10 X 10 X 10 = 1000, and it speaks of the realm of ruling and reigning with Him, and not from a "heaven" that we literally died to enter into.

The other thing I want to point out, is the High Priest had to walk in there barefoot, which speaks of a people whose conversation is in "heaven" as Paul said, but whose feet are on the EARTH.

3:15- Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, BE THUS MINDED: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

:cloud9: Perfection is NOT a character trait, but rather a state of being found IN CHRIST. Blessings....

[Gilbert]

Death is the enemy. That's clear.
But less clear is how exactly it's the enemy...
a] Just simply being dead? -> For many death is a blessing. The sick and lonely to mention just two groups.
b] The fear of death as Sparrow mentioned?
c] Ageing. The body gets weaker and weaker. Often more sick on the path to old age. The path to death.

Points b and c can be combined with Sparrows view "a doorway" or "shall not sleep"
And when you step to the doorway for you personally the "last enemy" is defeated.
:2c:

Hi! WhiteWings

Hebrews 2:14-15 says that by His death Jesus delivered all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. Jesus did this by de-throning the devil.

Jesus said about the resurrection of the inner man: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live", (John 5.25).

But to a Christian whose inner man is united with God's Spirit, it still applies that it is appointed to man to die once. The time comes when the spirit of life, which also keeps natural life, will no longer be able to resist the destructive powers of death. Then the moment has come when the inner man is separated from the body. Man then 'gives up the ghost'.

However, the inner man remains in the body of Christ, for all who have risen in soul and spirit and persevere until the end will not die but live for evermore. Man is immortal as far as his soul and spirit are concerned, but his body will pass away. The Lord said about the inner man: "He who believes in me shall never die".

Today, for instance, there are some who are busy over-emphasizing physical healing to the point that being without sickness becomes more important then being without sin. This is nothing to be amazed about, for the simple reason that health is more easily visible than spiritual maturity.

Does this mean that healing of the body is no longer important? The answer is that we have our treasure in an earthen vessel. The vessel preserves the treasure. The container may be damaged or grow old, wear and tear may leave it chipped, but only when it cracks will it lose its contents. Body and soul are closely related. We pray for physical healing when the illness interferes with the Kingdom of God.

The time will come when the spiritual man is resurrected with an immortal and imperishable body. This will be the completion of the total resurrection. Then the resurrected body will be perfectly controlled by the laws of the Spirit. Then the sons of God will be conformed to the image of the Son, and function accordingly. Then they will be perfect and fit to exercise God's power in the invisible and visible worlds. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the guarantee of this glory!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think it's important here to continue on with what we are supposed to be attaining, so I'm going to take off on the last verse in my previous post and add some more thoughts. It was:

Phillipians 3:15 - Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, BE THUS MINDED: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 :cloud9: Let's examine what it means to be perfect, which I said in my previous post, is NOT a character trait, but a state of being IN CHRIST.

The Greek word used is telioo, which means:

  1.  to make perfect, complete (also to consecrate)
        1. to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
  2. to complete (perfect)
        1. add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing FULL
        2. to be found perfect
  3. to bring to the end (goal) proposed
  4. to accomplish
        1. bring to a close or fulfillment BY EVENT
              1. of the prophecies of the scriptures

:cloud9:.........AND; has a root word in it which also means to be mature, full grown, of adult age, ie. Sons of God, capable of bringing up Seed unto Him. I capped certain words in the meaning here for emphasis.

Now let's look at where we see these:

Lu 13:32 -   And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be PERFECTED.

:cloud9: The first thing we need to know here, is that it has been 2 days or 2000 roughly since Christ, which, since God says a day is like a thousand years, means we are in the dawning of the 3rd day, and according to the Lord's own mouth, is the day of His perfection or completeness.

Now we know that He cannot be talking about Himself needing this as He was already perfected, so is talking about the perfection or completeness that is coming to His body in this day (which is accomplished by coming into COMPLETE union with the Head, which is Christ).

And the thing is, since this "day" of no part darkness IS CHRIST, which is Spirit, this same "day" was available to 1st century Christians, as is available to us now because it "overlaps" TIME, making the death that is contained in time (something has to die to create time, else there is nothing but life forever more), OF NONE EFFECT.

The other thing we need to know, is that this 3rd day is as the 7th day also, as the tabernacle pattern shows roughly 4000 years or 4 days from Adam to Jesus. So while it is the 3rd day since Christ, it is also the 7th day, which marks it as a SABBATH REST.

So when He was telling 1st century Christians to enter in His REST, His promised "land" of which the Israelite's was only a type and shadow, He was speaking of entering INTO CHRIST, the 7th day of no part darkness Genesis speaks of.

So how is the perfection process started by entering into Christ? Or another way to put it adding the meanings listed above is, what EVENT began to render us FULL?

Acts 2:4 - And they were all FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Mt 5:6 - Blessed are they which do hunger (bread/Word) and thirst (wine/Spirit) after righteousness: for they shall be FILLED.

Col. 2:9 - For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:6 And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace

:cloud9: This event, is what begins the sanctification process, which is literally that which is within, Christ in you, the hope of the glory (or put another way, the hope of your glorified body), becoming the IMMORTALITY that swallows up your MORTALITY.

We are saved, we are being saved and we shall be saved. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING.

I want to add: And by resurrection.
But that's not what that 'door' is about.
For those that stay behind the person looks dead. That's isn't true because the person is alive at the other side of the door.

I have to add that for me death is not about my body but my mind.
"Me" is my mind and personality.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...

[jabcat]

Simply, does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing?

I think all believe in a resurrection, all believe in continuing life due to Jesus' gift (at some point, whether you believe in "soul sleep" for awhile, or instantly "alive" with the Lord);  whichever, I don't believe any in this particular discussion believe in total annihilation, so that's not the question I'm asking.  IMO, there are multiple ways to describe being made alive in Christ, different layers ot it.  But clarifying, trying to make sure what people are saying. 

It's a simple question.  Does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing?  It's a yes or no question.  There's already been an amount of other expositions.  With this question established, maybe other things will appear to "make more sense".  I can buy a lot of other things that have been said, if put in proper perspective/rightly divided.  But I'm afraid some of this isn't being made clear based on the lack of clarity of the bolded question.

Please don't make me need to do a poll on this.  Poll numbers have been sliding pretty badly lately :bigGrin:.

[jabcat]

:cloud9: Amen WW.........and again.........there is a resurrection attained WHILE STILL IN THE BODY, and it is this resurrection that I am speaking of, as did Paul. Blessings...

Card, are you specifically talking of a SPIRITUAL resurrection then - the one while still in the body?  Do you specifically believe this body of flesh will one day stop breathing, i.e., die?  All the aforementioned is what I personally believe.

It seems to me that some are confusing the terms physical and spiritual, and I think your answer to that question would help clarify this (or not  :laughing7:).  Thanks, James.

[WhiteWings]

It's a simple question.  Does anyone believe this body of flesh will never stop breathing?  It's a yes or no question.

I think everyone stops breathing.

But.... sorry jabcat...if the body stops breathing because the spirit/mind is on the other side of the door things get more muddy.
As I wrote above: "Me" is my mind and personality.
So that would mean I won't stop breathing but my body does.

[Molly]

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--1Cor 15


"be changed"
G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
al-las'-so
From G243; to make different: - change.


John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

[Seth]

:cloud9: Death is NOT defeated by dying, it is defeated by NOT DYING. The Lord defeated death BEFORE He ever went to the cross, ELSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.

I agree, nobody defeats death simply by dying.

Acts 2:23-29
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


I repeat, I never said that death is destroyed by dying. I said that resurrection destroys death, and that is proved by the likeness of the resurrection. What destroys our sinful flesh, the resurrected life with in us. That likeness sheds light on the fact that on the third day, Jesus was "loosed from the pains of death." It isn't that Jesus didn't die. He did die for our sins. It was that on the third day, he was raised and loosed from death.

This gave hope to David, who IS both DEAD and BURIED. This of course conforms with Hebrews 11 which states that the patriarchs died WITHOUT receiving the promise (which was Christ by the Spirit) that they WOULD NOT BE PERFECTED WITHOUT US.

Christ was clear that on the THIRD DAY he would be perfected, and Paul was also clear that he was not perfected either since he had not attained the resurrection of the dead. He certainly attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection, but until flesh and blood is cast away, he knew he was not perfected.

Phillipians 3:10 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

:cloud9: Now I want to point out something here in this first verse, and that is the order of the wording. Notice that Paul is saying here that He wants to know Him and the power of his resurrection, and being conformable to His death. He is not saying He wants to know the power of His resurrection AFTER he dies; far from it, as the rest of the chapter goes on.

Actually that is exactly what he says.

Phillipians 3:10-16
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Our transformation from being the earthly man, to being conformed unto the Heavenly man REQUIRES a casting away of the flesh because it cannot receive heavenly things. In our flesh is no good thing, as Scripture says (Romans 7). The conforming to Christ's death is a PROCESS.

This process STARTS with what the Bible calls "the likeness of" Christ's resurrection. That is when the conforming process begins while we are alive and believe on Christ (not to "die in the aion"). Paul received that gift, the Holy Spirit. Yet he knew it was only the beginning.

As John said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." The reason we have sin is due to the body of this death. Now, we have been delivered of this body in our minds in the sense that we need not walk in slavery to it. However we still groan in this tent to be clothed of immortality and be delivered completely.

This is why Paul said "I am not already perfect" and why he said that he had not already attained the resurrection from the dead. The likeness of the resurrection (receiving the Holy Spirit) sheds light on the resurrection itself. The life of Christ resurrects us from death in sin. What does the resurrection do? Delivers us from death. If you don't die, you don't need resurrection. If Paul had already died, he didn't need to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD.

To attain the resurrection from the dead, one must BE DEAD. Otherwise it would be called "the resurrection of the already living." Paul knew that except a seed go into the earth and die, resurrection will not happen.

The full process of being conformed to Christ's death goes like this:

1) We are dead in sin even as we are animated and conscious
2) We receive the Holy Spirit and attain the likeness of Christ's resurrection delivering us from the body of death
3) We still have sin even though we now do not abide in it because we still have a body which by its own nature lusts against the spirit
4) To be perfected we will attain the resurrection of the dead, by going into the earth as a seed, and being raised in power....no more flesh

That is the full process and the conforming STARTS with the receiving of the Spirit and is COMPLETED at perfection through the resurrection of (not the already living) the dead.

[Seth]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.

Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.

[Nathan]

I am one that believes that there is a generation that will experience this mystery.  I believe there is a day coming that spiritual will merge with and overtake natural, perfecting death, removing the curse.  Death is not absence of life as much as it is a separation.  Adam's death was a separation from the spirit realm, which is invisible to this natural realm.  It's only seen by faith.

But I do believe there will be a time when all things are restored to their original state, which for me is, back to a predominantly spiritual state.  

We can't comprehend with our natural thinking what that will be like because we have no original template to refer back to other than before the fall of Adam.  But I do believe that flesh follows spirit.  What is complete in the spirit, will also be complete in the flesh.  As Card was saying, this 7th day (Sabbath Day mentality) is emerging in us and in the world because not only is it the 7th Day we're experiencing, but the 3rd Day of Resurrection . . .both are the person of Christ.

[Seth]

I am one that believes that there is a generation that will experience this mystery.  I believe there is a day coming that spiritual will merge with and overtake natural, perfecting death, removing the curse.  Death is not absence of life as much as it is a separation.  

Why isn't it both. Of course death IS the absence of life, and that is what makes it death, whether it be mortality or separation from God through evil works.

[Nathan]

The reason it's not both is because you can be living but still be dead.

[Molly]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.

Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.

Yes, I agree.  Now the question is when does this happen?


50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

--Mat 27

[Seth]

The reason it's not both is because you can be living but still be dead.

Yes you can be living and dead, and also dead and dead.

"Let the dead bury the dead."

[Seth]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.

Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.

Yes, I agree.  Now the question is when does this happen?


50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

--Mat 27

It does not say that they were raised to immortality.

"We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died"

This was written AFTER the incident you quoted. David is both dead and buried, his flesh resting in hope because his soul will not be left in the grave. He will be perfected with us.

[Molly]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15 is the same testimony.

Not everyone will be dead when Christ comes to perfect his saints. But those who are still alive WILL NOT meet him ahead of those who are asleep. That is what it means when it says "we shall not all sleep." He is talking about those who are still alive when the Lord comes to perfect the saints.

Yes, I agree.  Now the question is when does this happen?


50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

--Mat 27

It does not say that they were raised to immortality.

"We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died"

This was written AFTER the incident you quoted.

um...He did return.  He went to the Father and returned...

The firstfruits are not the whole harvest...


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.