I have three questions.

[Seth]

Hi Molly, peace to you. I have not said that enough to you. I hope our disagreements haven't caused a fracture with us. We may have disagreements but I respect and love you. I just felt I should say that and should have said it longer ago.

I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics.  When, then, would you say I receive immortality?  When I physically die?  Or when some event happens at the end of the age?

Well, semantics is the branch of linguistics concerned with meaning. I don't think it has a negative reality people give it. We are discussing meaning. What I believe is that we receive immortality when we go down as a seed dead, and then are raised like a tree.

But I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ.

If you were PHYSICALLY dead, then you would not be able to type on your keyboard. I also consider myself to be dead, but not physically yet. I consider my old self to have died, that is my old sinful way. However, I am still mortal because I look forward in hope to completion. That which is seen is not hope. If it is already done we do not hope for it (Romans 8).

Therefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ].  Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.

Christ was not perfected until he cast away the flesh he was lowered into. Same with us. We follow the same process: cleansed mind >>> casting away the literal flesh. Christ was dead twofold in that respect: He was dead to the body in his heart and mind, then he died physically on the cross, and was raised literally. We follow in his footsteps.

Being raised to newness of life is not the same as being perfected and immortal. I am raised from the dead to and, in this aion, will not die again as I continue to believe in Christ and he continues to be my aionios life.

If you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.

Well here is the kicker, and why we probably do not need to hash it out, and why I usually don't talk about "sleep" or "soul sleep" because I realized this truth: NOBODY experiences sleep. NOBODY experiences death when they are dead. In the grave there is NO KNOWLEDGE. Being so, nobody realizes they are dead. The experience from mortal death to immortal life is experientially instantaneous.

So in this I totally agree: I do not expect to experience sleep.

Thus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we  already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now. 

Yes our perfection is happening now UNTIL we are made perfect. Like Christ said: "On the third day I will be perfected." What happened on the third day?




1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8


Again, not meaning to beat a dead horse, but BOTH newness of life (aionios life - the life of the age) and immortality are promised through the Gospel. Contextually, the "law of sin and death" is experience of slavery to sin. You see, we are delivered from this body of death in that our minds are separated from its slave-pull. Yet as Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we  long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age.

We are in the first stage of perfecting: putting on Christ so that our minds will be changed and delivered from the law of sin and death. And yet while we are in these bodies we yearn to cast it away because these bodies disappoint us, as the apostle said. I have not PHYSICALLY died yet, otherwise I would have a hard time typing this. I would be in the grave. The death I have experienced now is death to sin.

The perfecting is when we physically die, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither can corruption inherit incorruption.

So you and I agree that someday we will have new bodies after these are done with. Cool. You believe that you will recieve that immediately after your death. I do not. But we both agree that experientially, it will be instant.

[Zeek]

Seth said:  "Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we  long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age."


Immortality, imo; doesn't have to be in relation to "physical death", but in receiving the "end of our faith"---->salvation. 

[Seth]

Right, salvation. First we are saved from the body of this death by our minds be saved from slavery TO it. And because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God we must also die and be reborn as Christ died and was reborn.

Christ's death was two fold: he was always dead TO the body, and then his body actually died and he was raised three days later. By his own words, in so doing he was perfected.

Philippians 3:10-16
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded, and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.


Whatever we have already attained, and among those who are perfect or completed, you ought to be thus minded, you are not already perfect and have not already attained the resurrection of the dead. You see, in the sense of being resurrected to life from death in sin, that is the BEGINNING of the process of perfection.

Just like Paul, I count myself NOT already to have attained, and am NOT already perfect. I will be perfect when I no longer "groan in this tent" to "put on immortality."

Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

1 Corinthians 15:35-49
But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

If we are to bear the likeness of the man from heaven, HOW will we do that? By casting off the flesh. In that manner, we will be perfected, as it has begun by receiving the spirit, which is described as a foretaste of future glory. That is why, though we have aionios life, we still will attain the resurrection of the dead by being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

That teaching applies to BOTH life of the ages AND immortality. Both are included. As long as we have mortality we are subject to a mortal death (being that such is the very definition of mortality), and WHEN we receive a new body THEN we will be clothed with immortality.

[Zeek]

Well, i'm one who believes Paul received immortality the salvation of his soul, while alive physically.  But I lean toward that "evil"preterist view, so to me; I don't believe physical death is in the equation.   But, I'm at work; so haven't had time to look over your last post well.  I'll take a better look tonight.

[Seth]

Well, there are lots of people who say "I have already attained" and are therefore NOT "thus minded" with Paul. But I agree with Paul, "I count myself not to have already attained."

If receiving the "foretaste of future glory" is the only manifestation, then Paul should have said "I DO count myself to have attained, and I AM already perfect." He didn't say that and neither do I because I know that the flesh - by it's very nature - lusts against the Spirit and will be sown dead to be raised in power.

[Zeek]

Well, there are lots of people who say "I have already attained." But I agree with Paul, "I count myself not to have already attained."

If receiving the "foretaste of future glory" is the only manifestation, then Paul should have said "I DO count myself to have attained, and I AM already perfect." He didn't say that and neither do I because I know that the flesh - by it's very nature - lusts against the Spirit and will be sown dead to be raised in power.

But when Paul wrote this, the "end hadn't come yet", but was soon, very soon. 

[Seth]

Exactly, the end hadn't come yet, EVEN THOUGH he had already received the Holy Spirit. So even though having received "the foretaste of FUTURE glory" he counted himself NOT to have attained the resurrection of the dead. What I see people doing is saying that receiving the "foretaste" IS the final resurrection and that is evidenced by how they quote scripture.

[Zeek]

Exactly, the end hadn't come yet, EVEN THOUGH he had already received the Holy Spirit. So even though having received "the foretaste of FUTURE glory" he counted himself NOT to have attained the resurrection of the dead. What I see people doing is saying that receiving the "foretaste" IS the final resurrection and that is evidenced by how they quote scripture.

I agree with this, but; I don't think it's "physical death" that is the "end" or means to resurrection.  But I do understand what where u are coming from. 
 

[Gilbert]

Seth said:  "Paul said "While we are in this tent we groan" because we  long to "be clothed with immortality." It isn't that our minds haven't been clothed with Christ now, because as I have said, we are promised life in the age."


Immortality, imo; doesn't have to be in relation to "physical death", but in receiving the "end of our faith"---->salvation. 

Hi!
It may be the case that the term 'body' and also 'death' at various Scriptures requires closer examination to obtain proper comprenhension/definition.
For one thing, we have TWO 'bodies'.
Yeah, I can jus' 'bout hear groans of consternation over that idea.
The second thing is that we have to understand that 'death' is not merely confined to an event, it is also denoted as a spiritual power which is named (personified) as 'Death'.
Oh, oh! More groans to be heard.
:happygrin:
Presently, we dwell in a natural body; we call it a physical body because it is made of earthly elements which are visible in this physical dimension.
The invisible part of everyone (inner man and/or hidden man of the heart) is comprised of their soul and spirit which "DWELLS" or remains hidden in this their physical body.
But we also possess a heavenly body; the Bible names this as a 'spiritual' body because it is invisible and belongs to the spiritual/invisible realm.
The apostle Paul confirms this: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there IS a spiritual body."
So, we should not be surprised to learn that we are to have and obtain spiritual garments to clothe our spiritual bodies. This explains why Adam and Eve were found naked; they were naked spiritually. This also explains how it is that we have and weave our garments and why James speaks about "motheaten garments" and when reading Rev 3:4 and 16:15 speaking about, "keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame".
So, we should not be surprised to learn that we are to obtain spiritual garments to clothe our spiritual bodies. We should also not be surprised to learn that our spiritual body possesses similar counterparts as our physical body. This is why is speaks about our spiritual ears and of spiritual eyes. God too is a spiritual being possessing a spiritual body and thus it is also said of Him, "arm of God", "hand of God" and so forth.
Here is an admitted faulty parable to draw an illustration:
If a team of medical engineers were to place your physical body under a most powerful microscope, what would they find?
Would they find your soul? Your spirit? No. Would they find a thought? A remembering? Would they find a conscience? Of course not.
So, what would they really discover about you?
Well, to use an illustration, they would discover that you are functioning as something like a TV.
Oops! The echo of another groan can be heard.  :bigGrin:
Why a TV?
Well, for the simple reason that your physical body essentially functions as a RECEIVER.
You would agree that every TV has the ability to RECEIVE signals from out of the air, right?
And, you would agree too that image being viewed on the TV screen depends entirely on which channel the TV tuned into set to 'listen' to.
Now, a question:
If you smashed your home TV into a million pieces, would you find your favorite song artist concealed amidst the wiring? Is your favorite news broadcaster hiding behind the wiring? No, of course not.
What would you find inside your the television apparatus which you tore apart into pieces?
Plain and simply: a receiver.
That's all.
So, now you and the medical engineering team are in the same boat.
Follow me so far?
Now, here's something intriguing to add to the illustration of the TV:
The Bible speaks of two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Light (God) and the Kingdom of Darkness (evil one). But it also mentions the Kingdom of Heaven.
What is the kingdom of heaven?
Well, again I remind you: we have to remember that we are addressing things here which defy both natural sight and natural explanation. The best that anyone can do is to try and explain things through the use of illustrations or 'parables'.
The kingdom of heaven can be hurriedly defined by the all encompassing term of the 'invisible world of the spirits'.
The kingdom of heaven could be said to be an umbrella of sorts (so to speak).
Within the kingdom of heaven are two distinct separate atmospheres and/or climates: these are namely the realm of light and darkness.
So, now back to the illustration of the TV and radio.
Every human body is pre-wired (so to speak) to connect to the kingdom of heaven; to connect to the 'invisible world of the spirits'. This is the primary function of the human spirit.
Every human spirit is able to tune into (so to speak) a spiritual atmosphere containing either the 'Channel Light' or 'Channel Darkness'.
So, using this frail parable of the TV, we could also say that our physical body can behave similar to a TV screen; it can broadcast the evidence of which kingdom you are tuned into or preoccupied with. Those tuned into the kingdom of light, ("whose minds are set on things above where Christ is"), experience joy, peace and righteousness and this oftentimes becomes visible for everyone to witness. In the case of those who are preoccupied with the kingdom of darkness, these too oftentimes broadcast the channel they have chosen; such as depression, fear, guilt and anxiety.
But the most important thing to realize is that what occurs 'invisibly' here on earth becomes 'visible' in the Kingdom of Heaven because it is revealed in your spiritual body.

And, now for fear of creating more than my fair share of groanings, I will end my comments. But I might later have opportunity to explain the term 'Death' at greater length if people here might be tolerant of me and invite me back.  :happygrin:

[Zeek]

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Jesus literally died, yet this is a "spiritual baptism"

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Jesus was literally buried, we are "spiritually buried".  Christ was literally raised, we are "raised in likeness"

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


likeness:

G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
hom-oy'-o-mah
From G3666; a form; abstractly resemblance: - made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.

[Seth]

Yet as the Bible shows, those who have attained a Spiritual baptism have not yet been perfected, and have not attained unto the resurrection of the dead. Even Paul could apply Romans 6 to himself, yet he knew that he had not been perfected either, and said that he did not "count himself to have obtained" the resurrection of the dead. This is why to say that upon receiving the Spirit, we have already been raised is not correct according to what the Bible says.

Do you know who else had the Spirit? JESUS! He had a whole lot of Spirit, just as he promised to give to us. Yet even as he said: he was not yet perfected. He would be perfected on the third day.

John 17:4-6
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is why I said that Jesus' death was TWO fold. He was already dead to the flesh BEFORE he literally died.

Jesus had a baptism of the Spirit before he released his "flesh and blood" (signified when he was baptized with water) so why was he asking God to glorify him with the same glory he had before the world was? Because he was LOWERED into the flesh. That is why, EVEN with a Spiritual baptism we have not been fully raised and have not attained the completion and the perfection that occurs when we have cast away the flesh. What Romans 6 describes is not the end, but the beginning.

This is what it means to go "from glory to glory."

[Gilbert]

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Jesus literally died, yet this is a "spiritual baptism"

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Jesus was literally buried, we are "spiritually buried".  Christ was literally raised, we are "raised in likeness"

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


likeness:

G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
hom-oy'-o-mah
From G3666; a form; abstractly resemblance: - made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.

Hi! Zeek

Jus' tuh hurriedly add sumthin' to your comments:
Speaking of 'spiritual' and 'literal':
It can be said that Jesus was crucified BOTH literally AND spiritually.
We are all in agreement that the crucifixion/death of Jesus occurred at Calvary.
However, the Bible also mentions that Jesus was crucified 'spiritually' too.
"And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified"
The natural life of Jesus was crucified in the visible world at Calvary, but his inner life was crucified in the invisible world ... in the 'city of darkness' and presided over by the realm of death.

[Zeek]

I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.



The "body of death", imo wasnt' about the "physical body",


Paul spoke of not having attained the ressurrection yet, imo; not because he hadn't physically died; but because the "Ishmaels" were still in place, and the judgment was yet to come. 


Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul wasnt' persecuting himself, ie: his "flesh" persecuting his "inner man",  he wasn't himself "mixing the two",

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The establishing of the second, imo; is the resurrection.  The end of your faith; the salvation of your soul.  Imo, not physical death; but death of death 


2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[WhiteWings]

I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.

Some sort of weird routing problem.
I'm at office and TM does not load at all. When I log to my home PC (from office) I can instantly open TM.
So at the same time its dead and fast.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: There are two resurrections; one in the body, one by death to the body. Blessings....

[Molly]

Is there a relationship between these verses?  A reversal of fortune?  First separated [in death], then joined together [in death]?  First one flesh, then [raised] one Spirit?




21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

--Gen 2

"and he slept"

H3462
ישׁן
yâshên
yaw-shane'
A primitive root; properly to be slack or languid, that is, (by implication) sleep (figuratively to die); also to grow old, stale or inveterate: - old (store), remain long, (make to) sleep.





4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
--Rom 6



"we are buried" [with him]

G4916
συνθάπτω
sunthaptō
soon-thap'-to
From G4862 and G2290; to inter in company with, that is, (figuratively) to assimilate spiritually (to Christ by a sepulture as to sin): - bury with.




planted together "

G4854
σύμφυτος
sumphutos
soom'-foo-tos
From G4862 and a derivative of G5453; grown along with (connate), that is, (figuratively) closely united to: - planted together.




1 Corinthians 15:18
....those also who have fallen asleep in Christ ....

"fallen asleep" [in Christ]

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.




11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

--John 11

[Seth]

I give up, either my puter is messed up; or tentmaker is having some serious problems, but running very slooooooow.



The "body of death", imo wasnt' about the "physical body",


Paul spoke of not having attained the ressurrection yet, imo; not because he hadn't physically died; but because the "Ishmaels" were still in place, and the judgment was yet to come. 


Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul wasnt' persecuting himself, ie: his "flesh" persecuting his "inner man",  he wasn't himself "mixing the two",

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The establishing of the second, imo; is the resurrection.  The end of your faith; the salvation of your soul.  Imo, not physical death; but death of death 


2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Paul was actually pretty clear that he had been delivered from the law. He did not teach that he was both under Moses and under Grace. What Paul taught was that because our old man has died we HAVE been delivered from the law, which is why he was so angry with the Galatians for returning to it.  What Paul was actually talking about in Galatians 5 was the difference between those who are in bondage to sin and the law, and how they were persecuting those who were telling them about their own Messiah.

1 Peter 2:7-9
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is what delivers us from the sinful man, and THAT is what makes being under the old covenant pass away, YET, scripturally being baptized in the Spirit is the LIKENESS of the resurrection. Nobody can be perfected in the flesh. That is the point that the scripture is making. The flesh itself CANNOT inherit the Spirit. The flesh is doooooomed.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

To be made perfect requires that we be conformed to the Heavenly man.

Philippians 3:10-16
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1) Paul knew that he had the Holy Spirit, and he knew that he had been made a new creature in Christ, and that he had put on Christ
2) Paul knew that such a thing is "the LIKENESS" of resurrection
3) Paul knew that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
3) Paul knew and confessed that he was not already perfect
4) Paul knew that he had not attained the resurrection of the dead

What is it called: "The resurrection OF THE DEAD." To attain the resurrection, Paul will be dead (asleep) to attain the resurrection OF THE DEAD. The scriptures that pertain to the LIKENESS of the resurrection (aionios life) are not proof of themselves that the resurrection has already been attained.

1 Cor 15:39
All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and AFTER THAT the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

That is the resurrection of the DEAD. That is how we are to be made conformable to Christ's death BOTH in being set free from sin (which is the LIKENESS of the resurrection) and being sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body so that we may bear the likeness of the man from heaven.....IN ALL WAYS.

The reason it is called the resurrection of the dead is because the dead are to be resurrected. To be resurrected we must be dead, because first what is natural, then AFTER THAT, the spiritual, to be sown and raised. But FIRST, to be in the likeness of the resurrection, we must be raised from sin (aionios life), which, again, is the likeness of the resurrection of the dead.

Paul attained the likeness, the "foretaste," but not the resurrection of the dead that he may be perfected.

[Seth]

BTW, you guys, this is just the way I see it. Not meaning to be argumentative. I actually don't usually discuss this much anyway as I have seen what discussions on so called "soul sleep" can turn into. I don't interpret the scripture from a Preterist viewpoint. There is a living word and a written word that testifies about the living. I interpret the word therefore from an "is was and will be" perspective, not just the "was" perspective. To me it has been a liberating way to see things because it brings fuller meaning to me, and does reflect the is, was, and will be character of the Living Word. So I just see that there was a resurrection, there is a resurrection, and there will be a resurrection. That is why I have the opinions I do regarding the scriptures that I see.

Much love to you all.  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Hi Seth--

I'm wondering if you are taking this to a place it was not meant to go.  You keep telling us flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as if that means I have to kill myself or die to inherit the kingdom of God.   That is not what Paul is saying.  I can live in this flesh and blood and still inherit the kingdom of God.  But, it is my spirit which inherits it, not my flesh.  It is my faith which inherits, not my works.  Just trying to make that clear, lest we end up with more purple shrouds and koolaid of those wishing to 'inherit' before their time.



Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


"at hand"


G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

[Seth]

Hi Seth--

I'm wondering if you are taking this to a place it was not meant to go.  You keep telling us flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as if that means I have to kill myself or die to inherit the kingdom of God.   That is not what Paul is saying.  I can live in this flesh and blood and still inherit the kingdom of God.  But, it is my spirit which inherits it, not my flesh.  It is my faith which inherits, not my works.  Just trying to make that clear, lest we end up with more purple shrouds and koolaid of those wishing to 'inherit' before their time.



Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


"at hand"


G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

Well to me I think it is clear enough that receiving the Spirit does not mean that we have attained the resurrection of the dead. It means we have attained the LIKENESS of it, and that our perfection is in attaining the resurrection...of the dead. What I am saying is that Paul will attain the resurrection of the dead, by being resurrected from the dead.

[Molly]

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

--Rom 8


This is saying to me that I can be called, justified, and glorified while in this body--right now. It's written in the past tense. Paul is always circumspect when talking about himself--and he even tells us as much when he says to a Jew he becomes a Jew and to a Gentile he becomes a Gentile.  His purpose is not to discourage anyone, I believe, and not to lord it over anyone else.  For this purpose, he calls himself a servant and the chief of sinners.

But, if my faith is Christ, if my spirit is Christ, if my mind is Christ--If Paul's greatest gospel to the saints is Christ in you the hope of glory, then all of this is available to me in this life and in this body, even without the glorified body of the better resurrection.  And,  I have access to plenty of company--a cloud of witnesses-- to help me achieve such perfection as is possible right now.




22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--12

[sparrow]

This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.

[Zeek]

BTW, you guys, this is just the way I see it. Not meaning to be argumentative. I actually don't usually discuss this much anyway as I have seen what discussions on so called "soul sleep" can turn into. I don't interpret the scripture from a Preterist viewpoint. There is a living word and a written word that testifies about the living. I interpret the word therefore from an "is was and will be" perspective, not just the "was" perspective. To me it has been a liberating way to see things because it brings fuller meaning to me, and does reflect the is, was, and will be character of the Living Word. So I just see that there was a resurrection, there is a resurrection, and there will be a resurrection. That is why I have the opinions I do regarding the scriptures that I see.

Much love to you all.  :HeartThrob:

how can there ever be a consumation, if the LIVING WORD is "will be"??  

Death can never be fully destroyed, because of the "will be".  Always a future resurrection??

Not sure I understand this??  

[Molly]

This physical shell we are now housed in, is still subject to decay.

hmmm...

Cardinal! :HeartThrob:  Help me out here..

[Seth]

This is saying to me that I can be called, justified, and glorified while in this body--right now. It's written in the past tense. Paul is always circumspect when talking about himself--and he even tells us as much when he says to a Jew he becomes a Jew and to a Gentile he becomes a Gentile.  His purpose is not to discourage anyone, I believe, and not to lord it over anyone else.  For this purpose, he calls himself a servant and the chief of sinners.

While in this body, we can be called, made righteous (justified), and glorified. However, we will move from glory to glory.

John 17:4-6
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Did Jesus not have the Holy Spirit already when he said this? Of course he did. He was called, justified, and glorified (Hebrews 2:7-8). But he also knew that he had been lowered into the flesh. So, to be glorified and "perfected on the third day" Jesus died and was resurrected, and thus was given the glory he had before the world was, that is before he was lowered into the flesh.

This why, though Paul knew that he was called, made righteous (justified), and glorified, though he "counted himself not to have attained (the resurrection of the dead) or was already perfect." The reason he said that is because, while in this body, we have attained the LIKENESS of the resurrection.

That is exactly, as Sparrow pointed out, why our bodies continue to decay and why we groan to be clothed, not with the mind of Christ (which we have indeed been blessed with according to the "foretaste of future glory"), but with his immortality and NON-decay as well.