I have three questions.

[fullarmor2]

  1)  What is the difference between the coming of the Lord described in Revelation,  on the white horse,     and  the coming of the Lord described by Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4 ,  the coming in the air,  with the dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ,   rising and meeting the Lord in the air.   
2)    Was Joseph  the youngest son of Jacob?
3)   I've been taught that at physical death we sleep and wait for the resurrection.  So when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration,  I  don't understand ,  because I thought they were asleep(sheol) waiting to be raised  up with Jesus after his resurrection?  ("and many bodies of the saints which slept arose")  After Jesus' resurrection.   

[jabcat]

hey fa squared -

No definite conclusions here, some thoughts and scripture to consider.

I wonder about #1 myself, and have no idea on #2.

Regarding #3;  I saw Tony N make the interesting observation the other day that the appearance of Moses and Elija was a vision, otherwise, they would have beat Jesus to being the first risen/first-fruit. 

There's been much discussion on soul sleep.  Many reference Ecc. 9:5, "the dead know nothing", others state it's out of context and only has to do with the literal, present, physical realm  :dontknow:.  I read this scripture today and wanted to post it tonight.  Thanks for the opportunity; 

Psalm 6:5

For there is no mention of You in death;
         In Sheol who will give You thanks? NASV

For there is not in death Thy memorial, In Sheol, who doth give thanks to Thee? YLT

God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

[Molly]

Joseph is the oldest son of the most beloved wife.  His younger brother Benjamin is the youngest son.  Does this answer your question?  Not sure what you are asking...

22And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.


23And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:

24And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.

--Gen 30

[WhiteWings]

"rising and meeting the Lord in the air."
I have no real answer but something that might be part of the answer.
The following is just a unfinished thought. Not my solid and fixed view. Neither want I to trigger a tribulation thread.

Perhaps it's about the (ancient) Jewish wedding rites.
The couple engaged. -> Jesus was on earth
The groom goes home -> Jesus back to heaven
The groom starts preparing the bridal room -> Jesus preparing the mansions in heaven.
The father of the groom has to approve is the room looks good enough. Usually takes 1-2 years -> 1000-2000 years.
We are told to be prepared. The virgins and the lamps parable. The bride usally saved money whole her life to buy "make-up" And also needed a lamp ready. Why? To do her make-up.
After the 1-2 years the the groom + friends goes to the bride -> Jesus plus angels.
The custom is doing this at a weird unexpected moment (suprise) usually during the night -> lamp oil.
When the groom is near the house of his bride he stops and blow the shofar/ramshorn -> revelation trumpet?
Then the friends of the groom go to the brides house and 'steal' her. -> comes as a thief in the night?
They carry the bride above their heads to the waiting groom -> not exactly but Jesus doesn't touch the ground.
Then the bride and groom have 7 days of  :HeartThrob: in the locked bridal room. -> 7 years of tribulation?
After that the wedding supper begins.


So.... Bride=elect  Rest=wedding guests

Only 95% of this post was off=topic so I see some improvement  :laughing7:

lamps

[jabcat]

Yep, you're improving WW  :happygrin:.

Molly, YLT has the verse as "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets". 

The CLV has  "a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets)"

Interesting once again how different translations bring out different nuances;  these 2 being literal versions indicate more of a "they say it's so" rather than a "they are now observing".  That's what I see anyway. 

I'm still undecided though, because I also wonder about the "great cloud of witnesses".

[Molly]

these 2 being very literal versions indicate more of a "they say it's so" rather than a "they are now observing". 

"they say it's so"

That's what a witness is, Jab, you know, like a witness in court.

So we have Moses and Elijah flanking Jesus and testifying to us [bearing witness]--he's the Man.

"witnessed" [by the law and the prophets]

G3140
μαρτυρέω
martureō
mar-too-reh'-o
From G3144; to be a witness, that is, testify (literally or figuratively): - charge, give [evidence], bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.

[jabcat]

Yeah, I agree.  But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were - not necessarily that they're still literally standing there saying that today.  It's recorded.  It's more than history, it's scripture.  Or, they may be right here in this room.  I don't know.

I really lean toward the former, but like so many things, I'm still decidin'.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

The piece of your definition jumps out at me;  "literal or figuratively".  I know that's a manmade definition, but still interesting nonetheless.

[Molly]

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

--Mat 17


"vision"

G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.


G3708
ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.

[jabcat]

I've honestly pretty much always thought of a vision as being perhaps supernatural, yes, but not necessarily something "real", as in "this can be touched/literal flesh and blood".  :dontknow: 

I know we both believe all scripture reconciles, it's our understanding that falters.  So if we took the scripture from Romans you quoted to mean the prophets are literally still standing around witnessing (observing) what's happening, do you have thoughts on how to reconcile that with the Psalm scripture I quoted about God not getting praise from Sheol/the grave?

And again, we have the "great cloud of witnesses".  I need to really study that out.

[Molly]

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


You're talking to a literalist, Jab, [me].  So yes I think it was real, and the witness was witnessed to by the disciples.  When I first saw this [the transfiguration], it knocked me out of my socks.  I thought, whoa, nobody ever told me about this.  We have a very mystical religion, even for a literalist.


You see Paul says it is manifested now--the Son, the righteousness of God without the law--is now manifested--revealed.   That means it was always there, Jab, just not seen by the man in the street.  But, Moses and Elijah were never the man in the street.

If one believes in Jesus, he will never die--do you believe this?
Did Moses and Elijah?
My Father is the God of the living.


31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

--Mat 22

[WhiteWings]

Yep, you're improving WW  :happygrin:.

Rather long story to explain what 'meeting in the air' mean.
Lots of pieces of the puzzle missing but I can't shake the feeling the mentioned revelation verse is about the wedding  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

I know Jesus said that, and I believe it, but now what exactly does it mean?  Because scripture elsewhere states it is appointed unto man once to die.

I believe it means (at least) that my spirit won't die.  It returns to God Who gave it.  I won't be spiritually lost or dead.  It's a promise, but for me to literally live again, doesn't it involve a resurrection, mortality putting on immortality?  Jesus said it so it's true.  But what are the spiritual layers?  IMO, the questions are "when" and "what's the process", not "if". 

This is an interesting excerpt from E.W. Bullinger's book, "A Great Cloud of Witnesses";

"God said to our first parents "ye shall surely die" (Gen. ii.16). The old serpent said "ye shall not surely die " (Gen. iii.4). And all his "ministers" today with one voice repeat that lie, and teach it as God's truth. Their creed is expressed for them in the words --
"There is no death,
What seems so is transition."
Whom do we believe?
   The Prophetic word declares concerning the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" that they "lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. xx.5). Man declares they are alive all the time without any resurrection. Whom do we believe?" - E.W. Bullinger

Once again, another simple topic  :laughing7:.

[jabcat]

I'll think some more on the wedding, WW.

Edit*  I've looked at it some more.  Will you expound upon it?

[Molly]

Whom do we believe?"

Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?



26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

[jabcat]

I said I do believe Jesus.  Shouldn't I also believe when the Holy Spirit says in Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die..."?

If I look at Hebrews 9:27 completely literally, then I say "all men die".

If I look at John 11:26 completely literally, then I say "believers never die".

At face value, there appears a contadiction.  But there isn't.  So what's more to be understood?  I believe that also ties into the OP of Elijah and Moses.  Literal, figurative, spiritual?  :dontknow:

[Molly]

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.



Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

[Beloved Servant]

IN MY OPINION:

1. The two passages are distinctly different events.
Here is, in my opinion, a good study on the white horse: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev85.htm

2. Benjamin is the youngest son. Brought to his older brother because of the hidden silver cup!

3. At the transfiguration, Peter, James and John were shown the completed/finished work, the Glory of God in the man Jesus in the NOW.
It could be said, in my opinion, that all 6 men at that present moment in time, experienced the lack of it.
Cardinal spoke well of this topic just the other day.

[Doc]

Whom do we believe?"

Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?



26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.

[Seth]

But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were - not necessarily that they're still literally standing there saying that today. 

Hi James. Peace to you brother.

Now, all you got to do is apply the exact same reasoning to "the cloud of witnesses"

Checkout Hebrews 12:1 and compare it to the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11, and tell me what you see - in relation to: "But my saying "the prophets witness something" could mean the fact that they said it's so is still and will always be in effect, yet the actual prophets themselves may be "asleep in Jesus" as it were."

The word "witness" was translated from "martus" into three English words in the KJV: "witness" "record" and "martyr." The word "martus" can indeed be a reference to one who watches, but also as one who speaks:

Ac 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witness (the RECORD or the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected. You see what I mean?

[jabcat]

Hey Seth.  Peace back at'cha.  Alright, good points.  I'll think on it more.  Thanks. 

[Seth]

Oops, I added to the post after you replied. Sorry, sometimes things come to mind...

What I am getting at with the above is that it is not necessary for something to be conscious and alive to be a "witness" or a "record." It can be but not necessarily. What Hebrews 11 is saying is that the patriarchs all died in faith. THEY are the witness to us to LIVE by faith and that they will join us soon enough being asleep in Christ. Dying in faith was their witness to us. Heck, my blue t-shirt could be a witness that I like the color blue!

[jabcat]

Yep, that's OK Seth.  I think along the same lines with Mol on many, many things...seems you and I are thinking along the same lines on this topic, which may need to make us afraid  :happygrin:.  Just kidding.  I'm all over the grace topic with you :thumbsup:.

Good find on the John 11:26 verse in the CLV Doc.  Check this one out from The Christian Bible (a very literal translation to the Koine Greek);

"..and whoever is continually living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the begining of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]".  Translated here, as it sounds to me, it's saying "won't taste (or at least BE HURT BY) the second death", which seems to align with other scripture.  Not that they never stopped breathing and "died" ["appointed unto man once to die"], but that they remain spiritually alive/not hurt by the second death (now, whatever that is  :Sparkletooth:).

[Molly]

Whom do we believe?"

Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?



26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.

Fine.  I'll take it.  I'll be one of the clouds of witnesses.  How long is an eon?


"aion"

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

 
Wait--don't some other clauses kick in, like no second death?