2 Thessalonians 1:9 is not up for us to take a vote on.....

[Gilbert]

gilbert,

I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.

Jesus said there is but ONE Father. By your conclusion: there MUST be TWO.

Jesus, was saying there was but ONE Father ... this much is true.

Which father was Jesus addressing when he declared: "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Unbelievable how some people can read something and still need sunlight pumped down to them to get a clue.

[peacemaker]

... nice rabbit trail to take the focus off the scripture of the thread.

"Not a rabbit trail, just a path to the truth."

Which you have neglected, having little regard for it.
And for those on this forum.

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

Lee100,

Your translations were done by people who believed in ET. Bias. Thanks.
So this type of reasoning won't get us anyware. You say yes. We say no. Repeat 1000x and still nothing is solved.

It's almost impossible to overlook discussions on that word Tony mentioned I'm sure you will find them. If you are interested an are prepared to spend several hours on the subject then I would suggest you read some stuff from the scholars corner on the main page of this site. I think you assume we just accepeted UR because it sounds good. And we possibly assume wrongly you oppose us after having read all 'our' arguments. One-liners never will do justice to either side.

[jabcat]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

Lee100,

Your translations were done by people who believed in ET. Bias. Thanks.
So this type of reasoning won't get us anyware. You say yes. We say no. Repeat 1000x and still nothing is solved.

It's almost impossible to overlook discussions on that word Tony mentioned I'm sure you will find them. If you are interested an are prepared to spend several hours on the subject then I would suggest you read some stuff from the scholars corner on the main page of this site. I think you assume we just accepeted UR because it sounds good. And we possibly assume wrongly you oppose us after having read all 'our' arguments. One-lines never will do justice to both side.

And that's a winner.  Just spewing dogma, without taking the time for an open heart in prayer before the Father, IMO, only reinforces any of our inability to see.  Even though God can certainly get our attention, even in our stubbornness.  He's certainly done it with me.

Ask God for guidance, lee.  He'll give it to us if we ask.  But if any of us just continue to blunder headlong into darkness, "if the light in us is darkness, how great is that darkness".  Ask and you shall receive.

[jabcat]

And that bias thing is really funny.  Like the King James' men had no biases  :goodone:.  Wow.

[WhiteWings]

Forgot to cut and paste the following into the previous message. The translation of KJV might be corrupt due to denominational views but it's fair to say that they just didn't have all the resources we have today.
Can we after this message go back to: What happens first 2Cor or Rev? part of this thread.
This thread now is going in more and more directions and that will no good to anyone.


The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the
Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle;
rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which
was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First
Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman
Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to
one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this
Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used,
instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other
Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered. As late as 1886 Joseph Henry
Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no
known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of
recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99%
of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other
Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the
syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New
Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek. This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known
as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New
Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different
from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first
published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary
documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he
was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the
Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was
studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters,
personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc.
However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished.
In translating the original words of God's Pure Spirit, we have taken
great care to find those exact English words that tell God's Message both
simply and precisely. Also, because some traditional "religious" words
do not teach the root meanings of the original Greek text, a special effort
was made to translate these terms into exact expressions which can be
understood by everyone, especially by those who have never read the
Bible.
This Bible may seem quite revolutionary and radical because of its
many improvements over the KJV and the other Bible translations; and
yet, when these numerous improvements are taken individually, they
each have substantial acceptance among reliable Greek Scholars who
have thoroughly researched these individual items. While there are
"experts" who will hold to their traditions from the "Dark Ages," and
who would disagree with some of these improvements, none of these
improvements are far-out ideas that have been dreamed up by a group
of misguided scatterbrains.
While translating from one language to another is not a pure science
but is also-;n art, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to do it as
scientifically or analytically as possible! A purely artistic translator is
most concerned with what is"beautiful and tasteful to him as he produces
what he has preconceived in his mind. As he merrily translates along, he
will paraphrase or interpret the original to meet his preconceived notions.
If while translating he comes across the exact same sentence separated
by several pages, he will likely translate the two slightly different. The

[Molly]

Hi ww, can you give a link to what you just posted on Koine Greek?  I would like to see what Bible that is referring to.  Thanks.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

lee the sad fact of your statement above is that most translations you use is a person with an agenda. And if you want to know Gods true meaning, go to His original language, like the literal versions do, the king james is really a very poor book to call the "word of God". And don't even go to the N.I.V. here because I have many examples of how they destroy Gods word.

Lee Damboise

[WhiteWings]

Hi ww, can you give a link to what you just posted on Koine Greek?  I would like to see what Bible that is referring to.  Thanks.

I can't Molly. It's OCRed from a Bible I only have in print.
Christian Bible.
But you might like some of the info found on their site
http://christianbiblesociety.org/bestt.shtml
http://christianbiblesociety.org/ntest.shtml

If it is of use to you/anyone I can scan and post a few pages to give you an impression of the translation.
Just give me a verse and I'll post the whole page containing that verse.

Note: This Bible is NT only.

[Tony N]

Tony wrote:
lee100, please get a better translated Bible.

(CLV) who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"

(GNT)  οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ,

(YLT)  who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

The destruction is eonian or pertaining to that eon. It is impossible to be eternal. The disciples were encouraged to destroy their souls so they would get them later.

Besides, how could it be eternal destruction? Especially when God is going to save all mankind as He promised in 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11. Or do you just love contradictions?

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

Tony's reply:
Well, thanks for proving our point that the ones who wrote the original New Testament in Greek believed in universalism!

As for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.

I don't think Young of Young's Literal was a Universalist. It is possible he became one but I don't recall.

[sven]

As for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.

I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method

[WhiteWings]

That's even more beautiful Sven.
Trying to make a biased ET translation and end up with UR.
Such translators must have a indentity crisis at some point...

[Tim B]

As for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.

I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method

Is A. E. Knoch a universalist now?

Because, if that's true, it's awesome! lol

[WhiteWings]

He sure is because he debunked ETs.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted1.htm

Plus some material on the main TM site.

[Tony N]

As for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.

I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method

Is A. E. Knoch a universalist now?

Because, if that's true, it's awesome! lol

Knoch died some time ago. He became a believe in God saving all when he began to properly translate the bible, especially the words aion and aionios.

[Raggedy Anne]

Answer this: if Hell is true, and babies do not go to Hell, then why the HELL are abortionists in THE WRONG in KILLING CHILDREN? At least they'll can be saved from HELL. And if they aren't: then God is even MORE of a monster. Torturing for ETERNITY INNOCENT CHILDREN!!

Answer this: how LOVING is it for two parents to have a CHILD with even a 50% chance that their child will go to Hell for ETERNITY??

Answer this: if a "loving" father had 10 children and decided to be nice to two of them, but was exceedingly cruel to the other 8: whipping and beating them all of their days, WOULD THAT be LOVING??

And after that, after you have NO RATIONAL ANSWERS (if Hell were actually true), go find yourself a conscience.

Ditto.... X 3   :winkgrin: :ty: Tim for cutting to the chase, getting down to brass tacks (if you will).   Theology never saved anyone.  Bad theology has destroyed a lot of God's children though.    Some are twice dead, plucked up by the roots and full of dead men's bones.   I'm suddenly reminded of that movie, "Night of the Living Dead" where the dead are wandering around frightening others, trying to kill them with fear. 

Sigh....

Anne