everyone,
Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.
How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.
And again IMO
no where in the original word of God is Hell, as 99.9% of Christians believe it to be...
Lee Damboise II
lee,
whatever you want to call it..lake of fire..gehenna. whatever...its a place of eternal ruin and torment. The very definition of Eternal is: ageless: continuing forever or indefinitely;.....Not temporary.
:cloud9: Lee 100, have you ever considered the fact that if the dead were raised from Noah's day who died without Him, that if God did not do it again at the end of this age (yep, that's a pattern there), then He would be a respecter of person? Not only that, but we have a BETTER covenant, and for it to be better it must have MORE than what the old one had. Blessings....
Let's keep it sweet and simple: More literal translations use age-during, age-abiding where your translation uses eternal. That simple word gives the verse a whole different meaning.
And no, I do not mean it all be fun and joy. The destruction isn't eternal but it still will take place. And even being temporary it's something to avoid.
I'm curious to read a verse, or a parable perhaps, that shows that people in hell continue to sin (without an end).
Cardinal,
I don't follow you. Where in the bible in Noah's day were people raised dying unbelievers?
ww,
Rev 22:11 "The one acting unjustly let him act unjustly still, and the filthy (person) let him be made filthy still, and the righteous (person) let him practice righteousness still, and the holy( person) let him be holy still."
This is happening in the New Earth and the New Heavens.
Lee100,
The text says 'still' but not for ever. To be fair neither does it say that they don't stay filthy for ever.
But Revelation is not the end of the Bible.....
Below something you might like to read/study a bit.
I just want to pick out 3 words: "No more enemies"
Aren't sinners enemies of God?
If so where are those sinners?
IMO they are either annihilated or converted to the truth. (I go for the second option)
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"
ww,
you are missing the point. These unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy in the New Heavens and New Earth age or time or eternal whatever you want to call it. Its over.. All the believers the righteous and holy people are eternally with the Godhead and the unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy are with the devil and his cohorts in hell .
Quote from: lee100 on August 24, 2009, 10:35:30 PM
ww,
you are missing the point. These unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy in the New Heavens and New Earth age or time or eternal whatever you want to call it. Its over.. All the believers the righteous and holy people are eternally with the Godhead and the unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy are with the devil and his cohorts in hell .
No,
you're missing the point. WW just pointed out to you why. Revelation 20-22 is not the end. If there are no more enemies in 1 Cor. 15:22-28, then there can't be any more people doing what is described in Revelation.
That is the point.
Lee100,
You made your point very clear. I really didn't overlook it.
In another thread I mentioned that IMO "your" eternal actually means for an age.
Plus I don't believe (with a reason) that your version of hell/hades/gehenna/LoF/... does exist.
The dogs, liars etc are outside the gates. True. But for ever?
But lets skip that debate for now.
What about 1Co_15:22-28?
Those are real verses from a real Bible that seem to agree with my view and not yours.
ww,
what about it? I have to go to work. Be back tonight around 830 pm et.
We anxiously await your return 37/100! :laughing7:
Fitted For Destruction
HERE (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2210.0)
I have to go to bed soon. So this is likely our last message today.
"what about it"
Well I explained twice. Doc explained it also. I really don't know explain it otherwise but I give it another try.
Do you agree right now we have kingdoms?
Do you agree The Son will have His kingdom?
Do you agree The Son will hand over His kingdom to Father?
I hope for 3x yes
The fact that 1Co_15:22-28 speaks about no more kingdoms is 1 piece of proof it happens after Revelation.
In that same 1Co_15:22-28 is not only mentioned that there are no more kingdoms but also no more enemies.
What are God's enemies? Sinners -> Dogs, liars, and all the bad people that are outside the city as shown in the verses quoted by you.
But 1Co_15:22-28 that happens after Revelation states there are no more sinners/enemies.
If they would still be outside the city/in hell cursing God as you said then God still would have enemies.
But 1Co_15:22-28 says there are no enemies.
How can that be?
My answer is: The are purified/converted/reborn/... and now inside the city.
Your answer is: .....
Maybe someone else can help me here. As you all are aware/know English isn't my first language so I simply can't write down the small details in a clear way. Thanks.
Lee,
Again let's review... 2 Thess 1:9 is is refering to the Kingdom of God, not salvation as you understand.
For example Jesus said in Luke 4:43... But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
and continued this very preaching but added His twelve.... Luk 9:1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.
Yes, for years they healed the sick, fed the poor and preached the Gospel of the kingdom...Yet the twelve were missing some vital information... Luke 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. Luk 18:32 "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.
John 20:9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
You see Lee, Jesus was sent to preach the kingdom of God, and so he did with His twelve. All the while being slient about dying on the cross for the sins of the world, as noted by Luke 18:31-34.
Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] : Dialogue with Trypho:
Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"
Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."
Lee, any one who dies in their sins, will miss out on the Kingdom reign, yet shall be resurrected in the end...
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Read it again lee... 2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal (Aionian) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
Lee, the eternal (Aionian) destruction ends at the second resurrection when "the rest of the dead come to life when the thousand years are complete"
You are confusing the salvation of all, with the Kingdom reign of His Christ.
Peace brother,
Paul
Quote from: lee100 on August 24, 2009, 09:46:20 PM
everyone,
Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.
How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.2thes1.7.....
I'm in the mood........ Some of my favorite words, those above.
I see a war within my very essence. Some 30 years ago something Divine was revealed to me. I see this as the Lord Jesus being revealed from Heaven as it says in the words above.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me,gal1.15
This Divine was revealed and mighty thoughts (angels) were created within me. These thoughts started destroying all that was not of God within me, all that did not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Divine.
These thoughts and beliefs are being and will be destroyed forever when the Christ is glorified within all my being.
I like to think Scripture is alive and relevant each moment of all of our lives. I know God is not talking a physical natural language in His Holy Word. It is a divine spiritual language that is telling us who and what we are and what our relationship is to Him. Every Word in the Good Book screams this out to me.
coglee, who will suffer eternal ruin, you ask? All that is not of God within you and I and all. So much in Scripture is personified and it seems to me that which is in me that is ungodly are 'those' who suffer 'eternal' ruin.
My two cents.
cp
Quote from: lee100 on August 24, 2009, 09:46:20 PM
everyone,
Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.
How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.
lee100, please get a better translated Bible.
(CLV) who shall incur the justice of
eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"
(GNT) οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον
αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ,
(YLT) who shall suffer justice--destruction
age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
The destruction is eonian or pertaining to that eon. It is impossible to be eternal. The disciples were encouraged to destroy their souls so they would get them later.
Besides, how could it be eternal destruction? Especially when God is going to save all mankind as He promised in 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11. Or do you just love contradictions?
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Quote from: lee100 on August 24, 2009, 09:59:25 PM
lee,
whatever you want to call it..lake of fire..gehenna. whatever...its a place of eternal ruin and torment. The very definition of Eternal is: ageless: continuing forever or indefinitely;.....Not temporary.
Would you actually go and do some research? Your arrogance and general lack of research is exceedingly frustrating. Another good idea: try to philosophize about what you believe. You insist on believing in an insane and absurdly sickening amount of garbage. Don't you dare pull the "God's ways are higher than our ways" excuse. God, in such an instance, anyway, was talking to the wicked, and Himself asked them to REASON together. Even God knows the WICKED can REASON. (Not saying you're wicked, but you can certainly reason.)
Try and rationalize Hell. Come on: DO IT! I dare you!
Answer this: if Hell is true, and babies do not go to Hell, then why the HELL are abortionists in THE WRONG in KILLING CHILDREN? At least they'll can be saved from HELL. And if they aren't: then God is even MORE of a monster. Torturing for ETERNITY INNOCENT CHILDREN!!
Answer this: how LOVING is it for two parents to have a CHILD with even a 50% chance that their child will go to Hell for ETERNITY??
Answer this: if a "loving" father had 10 children and decided to be nice to two of them, but was exceedingly cruel to the other 8: whipping and beating them all of their days, WOULD THAT be LOVING??
And after that, after you have NO RATIONAL ANSWERS (if Hell were actually true), go find yourself a conscience.
I don't expect you to find this message loving, but honestly, I don't know that, while I care about you, I can keep my deep disgust for your general attitude, "kind."
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Completely opposite. Go do some research.
Quote from: Tim B on August 25, 2009, 04:42:52 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Completely opposite. Go do some research.
Good posts Tony and TimB, and good suggestions, but.....
I'm afraid there's a problem;
Hebrews 5:11-14 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
tim,
1) Babies do not go to hell. Abortion is wrong because it is murder.
2) You assume all creation are God's children. This is false. You have to be re- born into God's family.( Jn3:3) Children and Creation are not the same.
3) Again you assume all creation are God's children. Not true.
4) my conscience is fine. Hell is not my call Tim. I wish no one would go there. God's call.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:54:17 AM
tim,
1) Babies do not go to hell. Abortion is wrong because it is murder.
2) You assume all creation are God's children. This is false. You have to be re- born into God's family.( Jn3:3) Children and Creation are not the same.
3) Again you assume all creation are God's children. Not true.
4) my conscience is fine. Hell is not my call Tim. I wish no one would go there. God's call.
Do babies go to Heaven then? Because, if they do, then the abortionists are doing babies a favor: they get out of THIS life AND get to go to HEAVEN! At least, the abortionists are a lot more caring then their supposed loving "Heavenly" father. (Or, if they don't care for the baby, they're still doing he/she a favor.)
Oh, and Acts 17:29:
"29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;"
Offspring = Children
Children = Having a Father
Father = God (as Paul spoke of)
John 3:3 speaks of reigning with God, as Sons of God, but this is, if I understand correctly, only in the sense of being Sons of God as being the title of those that REIGN with God. But this doesn't mean that non-believers are not God's children.
This is even what Jesus said:
Matthew 23
"1Then Jesus spake to the
multitudes, and [[not just]] to his disciples, ... 9and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for
one is your Father, who is in the heavens,"
Since there is ONE Father, anybody referred to as "Children of the Devil" can ONLY be in a figurative, but NON-LITERAL sense. Jesus is ALL MANKIND'S true Father (as Jesus said). Perhaps, Jesus could have said it like this, "You ACT as children of the Devil". Otherwise, if Jesus really meant they were the Devil's TRUE children, he would be contradicting himself when he spoke unto the multitude saying:
ONE is
YOUR FATHER.
And thank you: I'm glad you actually said you do not like the idea of Hell. That means your conscious (actually, I would say the Holy Spirit) is SPEAKING to you! :bigGrin:
Seriously man, you should go do the research.
edited because I just repeated what Tim just said.
edited because I just repeated what sparrow just said :laughing7:
:cloud9: :grin:
tim,
relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).
Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2009, 05:45:49 AM
edited because I just repeated what sparrow just said :laughing7:
:grin:
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 05:54:25 AM
tim,
relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).
You didn't answer my questions about the babies.
And my point still stands. Whatever "Children of wrath" means, it must only be figurative and not literal. We have only ONE Father.
tim,
whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so?
Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:18:06 AM
tim,
whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so?
Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.
What do you think would be better:
a. a baby who is not aborted, and ends up becoming a child of wrath and lands in hell.
or
b. a baby who IS aborted and by DEFAULT ends up in heaven.
TimB, what can be so hard to see is the END RESULT. That God causes Col. 1:20 to happen, and that "all in their own order" occurs - eventually, all according to God's timing and plans of the Ages. A good study is what is God's "purpose for the Ages" - not just here, now, then heaven or hell, that's it. As you know, it's NOT all now. I've done it myself, to get stuck on a temporal condition or situation, a punishment or judgment, forgetting that it all leads to our Father eventually being ALL in All. Yes, after death, the judgment. But then what? The ages, God's purpose of the ages, culminating in every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Gr., openly proclaim, exclaim with joy) Jesus is Lord! And only done IN the Holy Spirit (the king's version says 'by').
You're making good points for those with ears to hear and eyes to see, and they are good reminders for all :thumbsup:.
sparrow,
Your questions are asked as if I'm the one making these decisions. God's call. not mine. (Romans 9:14-25)
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:29:01 AM
sparrow,
Your questions are asked as if I'm the one making these decisions. God's call. not mine. (Romans 9:14-25)
I figured you wouldn't be able to offer your opinion on that scenario.
sparrow,
MO does not matter. It is God's purpose and plan that matters. His plan is not up for vote.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:18:06 AM
tim,
whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so?
Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.
Figurative in while their God's sons, that is, offspring, they are under his wrath. Remember, even his punishments are corrective, in the end:
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me,
you cursed,
into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into
chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
And, may I say it again: ANY ABORTIONIST who saves a baby from going to Hell, by killing them and sending them to Heaven, when they would have gone to Hell otherwise, IS doing the babies a favor. Actually, in such a view, it's rather an act of mercy: nothing wrong there. Such is the TRUE absurdity of reality with an actual Hell.
tim,
I would like to add.. SONSHIP is predicated on conduct. A son will manifest his father's characteristics ( Eph 5:1-2)
Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!
What translation are you using? Universalist translators. I guarantee it
Quote from: Tim B on August 25, 2009, 06:36:44 AM
And, may I say it again: ANY ABORTIONIST who saves a baby from going to Hell, by killing them and sending them to Heaven, when they would have gone to Hell otherwise, IS doing the babies a favor. Actually, in such a view, it's rather an act of mercy: nothing wrong there. Such is the TRUE absurdity of reality with an actual Hell.
Exactly. The absurdity gets more and more and more absurd the more they try to justify it.
That's a clue. Confusion. God is not the AUTHOR of confusion.
But MANKIND sure is.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:37:53 AM
Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!
I rest my case.
sparrow,
For you and Tim to agree that abortion is better than being born because you can't accept God's sovereignty over salvation..that is between you and God.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:37:53 AM
tim,
I would like to add.. SONSHIP is predicated on conduct. A son will manifest his father's characteristics ( Eph 5:1-2)
Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!
What translation are you using? Universalist translators. I guarantee it
Isn't it interesting that PLENTY of ATHEISTS, and NON-CHRISTIANS, act in a more lovingly conduct than many Christians? By your logic: they = children of God too. :bigGrin: Just sayin.
And of course: the theory is absurd, because it's the truth if Hell is actually real.
And no, the translation isn't a "universalistic translation". One arrives at such a conclusion when the Greek word "kolasis" is translated correctly. The word, "kolasis," means to trim a tree so as to have the tree bear fruit, or to correctively punish. This is what Jesus used when he spoke in Matthew 25:46: "aionios kolasis"
QuoteThe word by which our Lord describes punishment is the word kolasin, which is thus defined: "Chastisement, punishment." "The trimming of the luxuriant branches of a tree or vine to improve it and make it fruitful." "The act of clipping or pruning--restriction, restraint, reproof, check, chastisement." "The kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal is what the Greek philosopher called kolasis or chastisement." "Pruning, checking, punishment, chastisement, correction." "Do we want to know what was uppermost in the minds of those who formed the word for punishment? The Latin poena or punio, to punish, the root pu in Sanscrit, which means to cleanse, to purify, tells us that the Latin derivation was originally formed, not to express mere striking or torture, but cleansing. correcting, delivering from the stain of sin." 4 That it had this meaning in Greek usage, see Plato: "For the natural or accidental evils of others no one gets angry, or admonishes, or teaches, or punishes (kolazei) them, but we pity those afflicted with such misfortune * * * for if, O Socrates, if you will consider what is the design of punishing (kolazein) the wicked, this of itself will show you that men think virtue something that may be acquired; for no one punishes (kolazei) the wicked,
looking to the past only simply for the wrong he has done--that is, no one does this thing who does not act like a wild beast; desiring only revenge, without thought. Hence, he who seeks to punish (kolazein) with reason does not punish for the sake of the past wrong deed, * * * but for the sake of the future, that neither the man himself who is punished may do wrong again, nor any other who has seen him chastised. And he who entertains this thought must believe that virtue may be taught, and he punishes (kolazei) for the purpose of deterring from wickedness?"
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 06:54:12 AM
sparrow,
For you and Tim to agree that abortion is better than being born because you can't accept God's sovereignty over salvation..that is between you and God.
No. That is not what I am saying at all.
The abortion question is an ABSURD question.
Because that scenario is ABSURD.
But that scenario is CREATED from your beliefs.
Don't you see?
tim,
Your the one getting excited not me. No, that isn't truth. Hell is real. You have a problem with God's sovereignty over salvation. That is between you and God..sir. Read Romans 9:14-25.
ABORTION IS MURDER
willieH: :sigh:
Well? ...lee100 -- Tell us the TRUTH... :dontknow:
Are you going to ADMIT that you are COG37, ...lee100? :dontknow:I'm waiting! :gamer:
More sorrow filled
BAD NEWS... and carnal understanding, from the father of it:
Quote from: lee100 on August 24, 2009, 09:46:20 PM
everyone,
Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.
How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.
The word "HELL" does not appear in
Rev 22:11 except by YOUR ADDITION of it, COG-LEE...
ALL have disobeyed the
WORD and
GOSPEL of GOD... The REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST takes place IN ALL... it is the
WORKS OF MEN that the WRATH of GOD comes against -- 1
Cor 3:11-15 -- Rom 1:18 --
Those
WORKS shall come to ETERNAL RUIN... not the CHILDREN and WORLD that GOD SO
LOVES... The ETERNAL RUIN is in the LIVING of these things... for ALL SIN is TAKEN AWAY -- ETERNALLY -- and it is IN the SIN that lies the RUIN --
If your WORK abides, it abides because it was DONE ...IN CHRIST... if it abides NOT [ETERNAL RUIN], then it is LOST, but the one in which the RUIN took place is SAVED:
1 Cor 3:15 --
if ...ANY MAN's WORK shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS, but HE HIMSELF -- SHALL BE SAVED, yet SO AS BY FIREThat "
FIRE" is NOW... for we are IN the presence of GOD NOW --
Acts 17:28 -- Psalms 139:7-8 -- and we are being JUDGED -- NOW --
John 12:31Since you have more than shown that you are unable to SEE the "FOREST", ...here are a few "TREES" forya:
SPEAKING of ALL MEN, God
TWICE had THIS to say in His
WORD [words in brackets, are mine]:
Psalm 14:1-3 -- 1 ...The fool hath SAID [past tense]
there is no God. They are corrupt, they have DONE ABOMINABLE WORKS, there is ...NONE... that doeth GOOD -- 2 YHVH looked down from heaven [past tense]
upon the CHILDREN of MEN [all MEN fall into this category]
to see if there were ANY that did UNDERSTAND, and SEEK GOD -- ...3 they are ALL GONE ASIDE [ALL MEN]
they are all TOGETHER [God looking upon MANKIND as a WHOLE]
become filthy; there is NONE that DOETH GOOD [present tense]
...NO ...NOT ...ONE This Scripture is REPEATED by Paul in the NT -- Quoted in:
Rom 3:10-12 ---
10 ...As it IS WRITTEN, there is NONE ...RIGHTEOUS... NO, ...NOT, ...ONE -- 11 ...there is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seekth after God -- 12 ...they are
ALL GONE OUT of the ...WAY... they are ...TOGETHER... become unprofitable; there is
NONE that doeth Good, ...NO, ...NOT, ...ONE.
If you think you shall "parade"
your "GOOD WORKS" and "OBEDIENCE" before God, lee100 -- THINK AGAIN! You shall join your fellow brethren that bellow unto
CHRIST of their INIQUITIOUS, and FALSE "work" offerings:
Matt 7:22-23...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 05:54:25 AM
tim,
relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).
Something which you might find interesting and vaguely related to your comment, "children of God and children of wrath".
Quietly pull the blankets over your head tonight and conduct a discussion with yourself around these questions:
Everything visible to me has it's opposite, right?
Like, there is up AND down, light AND also darkness, right?
Everything we see here on the earth has a mirror image of itself in heaven too, right?
For instance, we have the physical sun and the moon of our visible universe, right?
Isn't there also a mirror image of this same sun and moon found in the invisible heavens?
Well, the short answer is yes.
For instance, our moon. It is indeed a visible picture of an invisible reality.
Actually, we would do well to say that the visible moon is a picture of the invisible Christ.
Why is this?
Well, the sun is a visible picture of the invisible God as being light.
The moon reflects the glory/light of the sun.
And, the moon is a light in the night and "the light shines in the darkness".
So, the moon is a 'parable' or picture of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Follow this so far?
Now, with this knowledge, go back and read those scriptures found in Revelation where it speaks about the moon adopting the color of blood; or where it speaks about the "sun and moon being darkened and the stars withdraw their shining".
Do you see the correlation?
A Christian who isn't a learned "scribe of the kingdom" and therefore largely blind to "the evidence of things unseen", will claim that the physical moon will turn blood red and that the physical sun will nearly extinguish.
It's this very kind of spiritually immature thinking is what's keeping countless sincere Christians 'asleep at the switch', so to speak.
Didn't our Lord Himself declare at the time after the Flood, "Neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."
Wouldn't God be violating this promise if He allowed the natural catastrophe resulting with the sun darkening and the moon turning blood red?
So, what does this REALLY mean when it speaks about the moon turning "blood red"?
This is a natural picture revealing a spiritual reality which will occur in the endtimes.
Blood is an image of natural life.
In the unfaithful church, the name, word and work of Jesus Christ are preoccupied with natural life. Joel already had prophesied about this. When the dark powers completely influence the unfaithful church, he said: "The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars with draw their shining", and: "The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes" (Joel 2:10-31).
But thankfully we also read where it says, "Then the moon will be confounded, and the sun ashamed; for the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before his elders he will manifest his glory" (Isaiah 24:23). When the darkening has taken place and the Spirit of God been poured out on the true children of God, the terrible and great day of the Lord follows.
But I got myself a little off-topic here.
I wanted to first show you that the visible things that we see and touch in everyday life are oftentimes used as 'parables' to reveal things invisible; spiritual things occurring in the kingdom of heaven.
Now, concerning the children of God and the children of wrath:
What exactly --- how did it happen? --- allowing you to now testify that you are a child of God?
Well, the short answer is:
You were born anew of the Spirit; born from above.
In every sense, you were reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit which ushered you into the family of God as a child of God.
So, ask yourself this question:
What spirit dwells in those whom the Bible names as "children of wrath"? Who is their spiritual father?
What is the spiritual origin of these "sons of perdition"?
If you are a son of God, is it possible that there are also 'sons of the evil one"?
If it is the Spirit of Christ which dwells in the children of God, what spirit dwells in the children of wrath? Could it be something akin to the spirit of an anti-christ dwelling in the 'sons of perdition"?
Frankly, I don't pretend to know all the answers.
But I wanted to throw this at you to chew on and let you come back to me with some of your own ideas and thoughts about it all.
gilbert,
I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.
Well? Are you going to ADMIT that you are COG37, ...lee100? :dontknow:
we're waiting!
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 07:14:41 AM
gilbert,
I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.
Jesus said there is but ONE Father. By your conclusion: there MUST be TWO.
tim,
One Father to the ones that belong to Him ( believers). Read John 8:39-44
BTW, nice rabbit trail to take the focus off the scripture of the thread.
Quote from: Tim B on August 25, 2009, 07:26:06 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 07:14:41 AM
gilbert,
I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.
Jesus said there is but ONE Father. By your conclusion: there MUST be TWO.
Jesus, was saying there was but ONE Father ... this much is true.
Which father was Jesus addressing when he declared: "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Unbelievable how some people can read something and still need sunlight pumped down to them to get a clue.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 07:29:47 AM
... nice rabbit trail to take the focus off the scripture of the thread.
"Not a rabbit trail, just a path to the truth."
Which you have neglected, having little regard for it.
And for those on this forum.
peacemaker
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Lee100,
Your translations were done by people who believed in ET. Bias. Thanks.
So this type of reasoning won't get us anyware. You say yes. We say no. Repeat 1000x and still nothing is solved.
It's almost impossible to overlook discussions on that word Tony mentioned I'm sure you will find them. If you are interested an are prepared to spend several hours on the subject then I would suggest you read some stuff from the scholars corner on the main page of this site. I think you assume we just accepeted UR because it sounds good. And we possibly assume wrongly you oppose us after having read all 'our' arguments. One-liners never will do justice to either side.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2009, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Lee100,
Your translations were done by people who believed in ET. Bias. Thanks.
So this type of reasoning won't get us anyware. You say yes. We say no. Repeat 1000x and still nothing is solved.
It's almost impossible to overlook discussions on that word Tony mentioned I'm sure you will find them. If you are interested an are prepared to spend several hours on the subject then I would suggest you read some stuff from the scholars corner on the main page of this site. I think you assume we just accepeted UR because it sounds good. And we possibly assume wrongly you oppose us after having read all 'our' arguments. One-lines never will do justice to both side.
And that's a winner. Just spewing dogma, without taking the time for an open heart in prayer before the Father, IMO, only reinforces
any of our inability to see. Even though God can certainly get our attention, even in our stubbornness. He's certainly done it with me.
Ask God for guidance, lee. He'll give it to us if we ask. But if any of us just continue to blunder headlong into darkness, "if the light in us is darkness, how great is that darkness". Ask and you shall receive.
And that bias thing is really funny. Like the King James' men had no biases :goodone:. Wow.
Forgot to cut and paste the following into the previous message. The translation of KJV might be corrupt due to denominational views but it's fair to say that they just didn't have all the resources we have today.
Can we after this message go back to: What happens first 2Cor or Rev? part of this thread.
This thread now is going in more and more directions and that will no good to anyone.
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the
Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle;
rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which
was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First
Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman
Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to
one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this
Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used,
instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other
Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered. As late as 1886 Joseph Henry
Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no
known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of
recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99%
of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other
Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the
syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New
Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek. This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known
as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New
Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different
from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first
published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary
documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he
was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the
Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was
studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters,
personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc.
However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished.
In translating the original words of God's Pure Spirit, we have taken
great care to find those exact English words that tell God's Message both
simply and precisely. Also, because some traditional "religious" words
do not teach the root meanings of the original Greek text, a special effort
was made to translate these terms into exact expressions which can be
understood by everyone, especially by those who have never read the
Bible.
This Bible may seem quite revolutionary and radical because of its
many improvements over the KJV and the other Bible translations; and
yet, when these numerous improvements are taken individually, they
each have substantial acceptance among reliable Greek Scholars who
have thoroughly researched these individual items. While there are
"experts" who will hold to their traditions from the "Dark Ages," and
who would disagree with some of these improvements, none of these
improvements are far-out ideas that have been dreamed up by a group
of misguided scatterbrains.
While translating from one language to another is not a pure science
but is also-;n art, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to do it as
scientifically or analytically as possible! A purely artistic translator is
most concerned with what is"beautiful and tasteful to him as he produces
what he has preconceived in his mind. As he merrily translates along, he
will paraphrase or interpret the original to meet his preconceived notions.
If while translating he comes across the exact same sentence separated
by several pages, he will likely translate the two slightly different. The
Hi ww, can you give a link to what you just posted on Koine Greek? I would like to see what Bible that is referring to. Thanks.
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
lee the sad fact of your statement above is that most translations you use is a person with an agenda. And if you want to know Gods true meaning, go to His original language, like the literal versions do, the king james is really a very poor book to call the "word of God". And don't even go to the N.I.V. here because I have many examples of how they destroy Gods word.
Lee Damboise
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 10:09:28 AM
Hi ww, can you give a link to what you just posted on Koine Greek? I would like to see what Bible that is referring to. Thanks.
I can't Molly. It's OCRed from a Bible I only have in print.
Christian Bible.
But you might like some of the info found on their site
http://christianbiblesociety.org/bestt.shtml
http://christianbiblesociety.org/ntest.shtml
If it is of use to you/anyone I can scan and post a few pages to give you an impression of the translation.
Just give me a verse and I'll post the whole page containing that verse.
Note: This Bible is NT only.
Tony wrote:
lee100, please get a better translated Bible.
(CLV) who shall incur the justice of
eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"
(GNT) οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον
αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ,
(YLT) who shall suffer justice--destruction
age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
The destruction is eonian or pertaining to that eon. It is impossible to be eternal. The disciples were encouraged to destroy their souls so they would get them later.
Besides, how could it be eternal destruction? Especially when God is going to save all mankind as He promised in 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11. Or do you just love contradictions?
Quote from: lee100 on August 25, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
tony,
Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.
Tony's reply:
Well, thanks for proving our point that the ones who wrote the original New Testament in Greek believed in universalism!
As for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.
I don't think Young of Young's Literal was a Universalist. It is possible he became one but I don't recall.
QuoteAs for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.
I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method
That's even more beautiful Sven.
Trying to make a biased ET translation and end up with UR.
Such translators must have a indentity crisis at some point...
Quote from: sven on August 26, 2009, 08:35:05 PM
QuoteAs for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.
I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method
Is A. E. Knoch a universalist now?
Because, if that's true, it's awesome! lol
He sure is because he debunked ETs.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/InDefense/UniversalismRefuted/refuted1.htm
Plus some material on the main TM site.
Quote from: Tim B on August 26, 2009, 10:18:39 PM
Quote from: sven on August 26, 2009, 08:35:05 PM
QuoteAs for the Concordant Literal New Testament, when it was originally being done A.E. Knoch believed in eternal torment.
I have even heard, that A. E. Knoch wanted to prove that hell is doubtlessly real according to the bible when he began the concordant method
Is A. E. Knoch a universalist now?
Because, if that's true, it's awesome! lol
Knoch died some time ago. He became a believe in God saving all when he began to properly translate the bible, especially the words aion and aionios.
Quote
Answer this: if Hell is true, and babies do not go to Hell, then why the HELL are abortionists in THE WRONG in KILLING CHILDREN? At least they'll can be saved from HELL. And if they aren't: then God is even MORE of a monster. Torturing for ETERNITY INNOCENT CHILDREN!!
Answer this: how LOVING is it for two parents to have a CHILD with even a 50% chance that their child will go to Hell for ETERNITY??
Answer this: if a "loving" father had 10 children and decided to be nice to two of them, but was exceedingly cruel to the other 8: whipping and beating them all of their days, WOULD THAT be LOVING??
And after that, after you have NO RATIONAL ANSWERS (if Hell were actually true), go find yourself a conscience.
Ditto.... X 3 :winkgrin: :ty: Tim for cutting to the chase, getting down to brass tacks (if you will). Theology never saved anyone. Bad theology has destroyed a lot of God's children though. Some are twice dead, plucked up by the roots and full of dead men's bones. I'm suddenly reminded of that movie, "Night of the Living Dead" where the dead are wandering around frightening others, trying to kill them with fear.
Sigh....
Anne