2 Thessalonians 1:9 is not up for us to take a vote on.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :grin:

[lee100]

tim,

relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).

[sparrow]

edited because I just repeated what sparrow just said  :laughing7:

:grin:

[Tim B]

tim,

relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).

You didn't answer my questions about the babies.

And my point still stands. Whatever "Children of wrath" means, it must only be figurative and not literal. We have only ONE Father.

[lee100]

tim,

whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so? 

Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.

[sparrow]

tim,

whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so? 

Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.

What do you think would be better:

a. a baby who is not aborted, and ends up becoming a child of wrath and lands in hell.

or

b. a baby who IS aborted and by DEFAULT ends up in heaven.

[jabcat]

TimB, what can be so hard to see is the END RESULT.  That God causes Col. 1:20 to happen, and that "all in their own order" occurs - eventually, all according to God's timing and plans of the Ages.  A good study is what is God's "purpose for the Ages" - not just here, now, then heaven or hell, that's it.  As you know, it's NOT all now.  I've done it myself, to get stuck on a temporal condition or situation, a punishment or judgment, forgetting that it all leads to our Father eventually being ALL in All.  Yes, after death, the judgment.  But then what?  The ages, God's purpose of the ages, culminating in every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Gr., openly proclaim, exclaim with joy) Jesus is Lord!  And only done IN the Holy Spirit (the king's version says 'by').

You're making good points for those with ears to hear and eyes to see, and they are good reminders for all  :thumbsup:.

[lee100]

sparrow,

Your questions are asked as if I'm the one making these decisions. God's call. not mine. (Romans 9:14-25)

[sparrow]

sparrow,

Your questions are asked as if I'm the one making these decisions. God's call. not mine. (Romans 9:14-25)

I figured you wouldn't be able to offer your opinion on that scenario.

[lee100]

sparrow,

MO does not matter. It is God's purpose and plan that matters. His plan is not up for vote.

[Tim B]

tim,

whatever child of wrath means? It's figurative? Really? How so? 

Yes, babies go to heaven IMO. No, abortionist are not doing the baby a favor..that is absurd. I don't know why God allows abortion to happen Tim. Whatever reasoning behind it... God is just.

Figurative in while their God's sons, that is, offspring, they are under his wrath. Remember, even his punishments are corrective, in the end:

41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

And, may I say it again: ANY ABORTIONIST who saves a baby from going to Hell, by killing them and sending them to Heaven, when they would have gone to Hell otherwise, IS doing the babies a favor. Actually, in such a view, it's rather an act of mercy: nothing wrong there. Such is the TRUE absurdity of reality with an actual Hell.

[lee100]

tim,

I would like to add.. SONSHIP is predicated on conduct. A son will manifest his father's characteristics ( Eph 5:1-2)

Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!

What translation are you using? Universalist translators. I guarantee it

[sparrow]

And, may I say it again: ANY ABORTIONIST who saves a baby from going to Hell, by killing them and sending them to Heaven, when they would have gone to Hell otherwise, IS doing the babies a favor. Actually, in such a view, it's rather an act of mercy: nothing wrong there. Such is the TRUE absurdity of reality with an actual Hell.

Exactly. The absurdity gets more and more and more absurd the more they try to justify it.
That's a clue. Confusion. God is not the AUTHOR of confusion.
But MANKIND sure is.

[sparrow]

Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!

I rest my case.

[lee100]

sparrow,

For you and Tim to agree that abortion is better than being born because you can't accept God's sovereignty over salvation..that is between you and God.

[Tim B]

tim,

I would like to add.. SONSHIP is predicated on conduct. A son will manifest his father's characteristics ( Eph 5:1-2)

Your abortion theory is outrageous and absurd!!

What translation are you using? Universalist translators. I guarantee it

Isn't it interesting that PLENTY of ATHEISTS, and NON-CHRISTIANS, act in a more lovingly conduct than many Christians? By your logic: they = children of God too.  :bigGrin: Just sayin.

And of course: the theory is absurd, because it's the truth if Hell is actually real.

And no, the translation isn't a "universalistic translation". One arrives at such a conclusion when the Greek word "kolasis" is translated correctly. The word, "kolasis," means to trim a tree so as to have the tree bear fruit, or to correctively punish. This is what Jesus used when he spoke in Matthew 25:46: "aionios kolasis"

The word by which our Lord describes punishment is the word kolasin, which is thus defined: "Chastisement, punishment." "The trimming of the luxuriant branches of a tree or vine to improve it and make it fruitful." "The act of clipping or pruning--restriction, restraint, reproof, check, chastisement." "The kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal is what the Greek philosopher called kolasis or chastisement." "Pruning, checking, punishment, chastisement, correction." "Do we want to know what was uppermost in the minds of those who formed the word for punishment? The Latin poena or punio, to punish, the root pu in Sanscrit, which means to cleanse, to purify, tells us that the Latin derivation was originally formed, not to express mere striking or torture, but cleansing. correcting, delivering from the stain of sin." 4 That it had this meaning in Greek usage, see Plato: "For the natural or accidental evils of others no one gets angry, or admonishes, or teaches, or punishes (kolazei) them, but we pity those afflicted with such misfortune * * * for if, O Socrates, if you will consider what is the design of punishing (kolazein) the wicked, this of itself will show you that men think virtue something that may be acquired; for no one punishes (kolazei) the wicked,

looking to the past only simply for the wrong he has done--that is, no one does this thing who does not act like a wild beast; desiring only revenge, without thought. Hence, he who seeks to punish (kolazein) with reason does not punish for the sake of the past wrong deed, * * * but for the sake of the future, that neither the man himself who is punished may do wrong again, nor any other who has seen him chastised. And he who entertains this thought must believe that virtue may be taught, and he punishes (kolazei) for the purpose of deterring from wickedness?"

[sparrow]

sparrow,

For you and Tim to agree that abortion is better than being born because you can't accept God's sovereignty over salvation..that is between you and God.

No. That is not what I am saying at all.

The abortion question  is an ABSURD question.
Because that scenario is ABSURD.
But that scenario is CREATED from your beliefs.

Don't you see?

[lee100]

tim,

Your the one getting excited not me. No, that isn't truth. Hell is real. You have a problem with God's sovereignty over salvation. That is between you and God..sir.  Read Romans 9:14-25.

[Beloved Servant]

ABORTION IS MURDER

[willieH]

willieH:  :sigh:

Well? ...lee100 -- Tell us the TRUTH...  :dontknow:

Are you going to ADMIT that you are COG37, ...lee100?  :dontknow:

I'm waiting!  :gamer:


More sorrow filled BAD NEWS... and carnal understanding, from the father of it:

everyone,

Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.

How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.

The word "HELL" does not appear in Rev 22:11 except by YOUR ADDITION of it, COG-LEE...

ALL have disobeyed the WORD and GOSPEL of GOD... The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST takes place IN ALL... it is the WORKS OF MEN that the WRATH of GOD comes against -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- Rom 1:18 --

Those WORKS shall come to ETERNAL RUIN... not the CHILDREN and WORLD that GOD SO LOVES...  The ETERNAL RUIN is in the LIVING of these things... for ALL SIN is TAKEN AWAY -- ETERNALLY -- and it is IN the SIN that lies the RUIN --

If your WORK abides, it abides because it was DONE ...IN CHRIST... if it abides NOT [ETERNAL RUIN], then it is LOST, but the one in which the RUIN took place is SAVED:

1 Cor 3:15 -- if ...ANY MAN's WORK shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS, but HE HIMSELF -- SHALL BE SAVED, yet SO AS BY FIRE

That "FIRE" is NOW... for we are IN the presence of GOD NOW -- Acts 17:28 -- Psalms 139:7-8 -- and we are being JUDGED -- NOW -- John 12:31

Since you have more than shown that you are unable to SEE the "FOREST", ...here are a few "TREES" forya:

SPEAKING of ALL MEN, God TWICE had THIS to say in His WORD [words in brackets, are mine]:

Psalm 14:1-3 -- 1 ...The fool hath SAID [past tense]there is no God. They are corrupt, they have DONE ABOMINABLE WORKS, there is ...NONE... that doeth GOOD -- 2  YHVH looked down from heaven [past tense] upon the CHILDREN of MEN [all MEN fall into this category] to see if there were ANY that did UNDERSTAND, and SEEK GOD -- ...3  they are ALL GONE ASIDE [ALL MEN] they are all TOGETHER [God looking upon MANKIND as a WHOLE]  become filthy; there is NONE that DOETH GOOD [present tense] ...NO ...NOT ...ONE

This Scripture is REPEATED by Paul in the NT -- Quoted in:

Rom 3:10-12 --- 10 ...As it IS WRITTEN, there is NONE ...RIGHTEOUS... NO, ...NOT, ...ONE -- 11 ...there is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seekth after God --  12 ...they are ALL GONE OUT of the ...WAY... they are ...TOGETHER... become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth Good, ...NO, ...NOT, ...ONE.

If you think you shall "parade" your "GOOD WORKS" and "OBEDIENCE" before God, lee100 -- THINK AGAIN!  You shall join your fellow brethren that bellow unto CHRIST of their INIQUITIOUS, and FALSE "work" offerings:  Matt 7:22-23

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Gilbert]

tim,

relax. The children of God ( John 1:12-13) and the Children of wrath (Eph 2:3) are not one happy family Tim. 2 types of children. Not the same. Issac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. One is children of the promise and the other children of the flesh( bond servant).

Something which you might find interesting and vaguely related to your comment, "children of God and children of wrath".
Quietly pull the blankets over your head tonight and conduct a discussion with yourself around these questions:
Everything visible to me has it's opposite, right?
Like, there is up AND down, light AND also darkness, right?
Everything we see here on the earth has a mirror image of itself in heaven too, right?
For instance, we have the physical sun and the moon of our visible universe, right?
Isn't there also a mirror image of this same sun and moon found in the invisible heavens?
Well, the short answer is yes.
For instance, our moon. It is indeed a visible picture of an invisible reality.
Actually, we would do well to say that the visible moon is a picture of the invisible Christ.
Why is this?
Well, the sun is a visible picture of the invisible God as being light.
The moon reflects the glory/light of the sun.
And, the moon is a light in the night and "the light shines in the darkness".
So, the moon is a 'parable' or picture of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Follow this so far?
Now, with this knowledge, go back and read those scriptures found in Revelation where it speaks about the moon adopting the color of blood; or where it speaks about the "sun and moon being darkened and the stars withdraw their shining".
Do you see the correlation?
A Christian who isn't a learned "scribe of the kingdom" and therefore largely blind to "the evidence of things unseen", will claim that the physical moon will turn blood red and that the physical sun will nearly extinguish.
It's this very kind of spiritually immature thinking is what's keeping countless sincere Christians 'asleep at the switch', so to speak.
Didn't our Lord Himself declare at the time after the Flood, "Neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."
Wouldn't God be violating this promise if He allowed the natural catastrophe resulting with the sun darkening and the moon turning blood red?
So, what does this REALLY mean when it speaks about the moon turning "blood red"?
This is a natural picture revealing a spiritual reality which will occur in the endtimes.
Blood is an image of natural life.
In the unfaithful church, the name, word and work of Jesus Christ are preoccupied with natural life. Joel already had prophesied about this. When the dark powers completely influence the unfaithful church, he said: "The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars with draw their shining", and: "The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes" (Joel 2:10-31).
But thankfully we also read where it says, "Then the moon will be confounded, and the sun ashamed; for the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before his elders he will manifest his glory" (Isaiah 24:23). When the darkening has taken place and the Spirit of God been poured out on the true children of God, the terrible and great day of the Lord follows.

But I got myself a little off-topic here.
I wanted to first show you that the visible things that we see and touch in everyday life are oftentimes used as 'parables' to reveal things invisible; spiritual things occurring in the kingdom of heaven.

Now, concerning the children of God and the children of wrath:
What exactly --- how did it happen? ---  allowing you to now testify that you are a child of God?
Well, the short answer is:
You were born anew of the Spirit; born from above.
In every sense, you were reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit which ushered you into the family of God as a child of God.
So, ask yourself this question:
What spirit dwells in those whom the Bible names as "children of wrath"? Who is their spiritual father?
What is the spiritual origin of these "sons of perdition"?
If you are a son of God, is it possible that there are also 'sons of the evil one"?
If it is the Spirit of Christ which dwells in the children of God, what spirit dwells in the children of wrath? Could it be something akin to the spirit of an anti-christ dwelling in the 'sons of perdition"?

Frankly, I don't pretend to know all the answers.
But I wanted to throw this at you to chew on and let you come back to me with some of your own ideas and thoughts about it all.

[lee100]

gilbert,

I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.

[willieH]

Well? Are you going to ADMIT that you are COG37, ...lee100?  :dontknow:

we're waiting!

[Tim B]

gilbert,

I appreciate your response. Tim and Sparrow and some others on this forum would like us to think that "the children of the devil" who have the spirit of the antichrist are the same as the Children of God that have the Spirit of Christ. Go figure. Excellent post.

Jesus said there is but ONE Father. By your conclusion: there MUST be TWO.

[lee100]

tim,

One Father to the ones that belong to Him ( believers). Read John 8:39-44

BTW, nice rabbit trail to take the focus off the scripture of the thread.