2 Thessalonians 1:9 is not up for us to take a vote on.....

[lee100]

everyone,

Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.

How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

And again IMO

no where in the original word of God is Hell, as 99.9% of Christians believe it to be...

Lee Damboise II

[lee100]

lee,

whatever you want to call it..lake of fire..gehenna. whatever...its a place of eternal ruin and torment. The very definition of Eternal is: ageless: continuing forever or indefinitely;.....Not temporary.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Lee 100, have you ever considered the fact that if the dead were raised from Noah's day who died without Him, that if God did not do it again at the end of this age (yep, that's a pattern there), then He would be a respecter of person? Not only that, but we have a BETTER covenant, and for it to be better it must have MORE than what the old one had. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Let's keep it sweet and simple: More literal translations use age-during, age-abiding where your translation uses eternal. That simple word gives the verse a whole different meaning.
And no, I do not mean it all be fun and joy. The destruction isn't eternal but it still will take place. And even being temporary it's something to avoid.

I'm curious to read a verse, or a parable perhaps, that shows that people in hell continue to sin (without an end).

[lee100]

Cardinal,

  I don't follow you. Where in the bible in Noah's day were people raised dying unbelievers?

[lee100]

ww,

Rev 22:11 "The one acting unjustly let him act unjustly still, and the filthy (person) let him be made filthy still, and the righteous (person) let him practice righteousness still, and the holy( person) let him be holy still."

This is happening in the New Earth and the New Heavens.

[WhiteWings]

Lee100,

The text says 'still' but not for ever. To be fair neither does it say that they don't stay filthy for ever.
But Revelation is not the end of the Bible.....
Below something you might like to read/study a bit.
I just want to pick out 3 words: "No more enemies"
Aren't sinners enemies of God?
If so where are those sinners?
IMO they are either annihilated or converted to the truth. (I go for the second option)


"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

[lee100]

ww,

you are missing the point. These unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy in the New Heavens and New Earth age or time or eternal whatever you want to call it. Its over.. All the believers the righteous and holy people are eternally with the Godhead and the unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy are with the devil and his cohorts in hell .

[Doc]

ww,

you are missing the point. These unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy in the New Heavens and New Earth age or time or eternal whatever you want to call it. Its over.. All the believers the righteous and holy people are eternally with the Godhead and the unbelievers are acting unjust and filthy are with the devil and his cohorts in hell .

No, you're missing the point. WW just pointed out to you why. Revelation 20-22 is not the end. If there are no more enemies in 1 Cor. 15:22-28, then there can't be any more people doing what is described in Revelation. That is the point.

[WhiteWings]

Lee100,

You made your point very clear. I really didn't overlook it.
In another thread I mentioned that IMO "your" eternal actually means for an age.
Plus I don't believe (with a reason) that your version of hell/hades/gehenna/LoF/... does exist.
The dogs, liars etc are outside the gates. True. But for ever?
But lets skip that debate for now.

What about 1Co_15:22-28?
Those are real verses from a real Bible that seem to agree with my view and not yours.

[lee100]

ww,

what about it? I have to go to work. Be back tonight around 830 pm et.

[FineLinen]

We anxiously await your return 37/100!  :laughing7:

Fitted For Destruction

HERE

[WhiteWings]

I have to go to bed soon. So this is likely our last message today.

"what about it"
Well I explained twice. Doc explained it also. I really don't know explain it otherwise but I give it another try.

Do you agree right now we have kingdoms?
Do you agree The Son will have His kingdom?
Do you agree The Son will hand over His kingdom to Father?
I hope for 3x yes

The fact that 1Co_15:22-28 speaks about no more kingdoms is 1 piece of proof it happens after Revelation.
In that same 1Co_15:22-28 is not only mentioned that there are no more kingdoms but also no more enemies.
What are God's enemies? Sinners -> Dogs, liars, and all the bad people that are outside the city as shown in the verses quoted by you.
But 1Co_15:22-28 that happens after Revelation states there are no more sinners/enemies.
If they would still be outside the city/in hell cursing God as you said then God still would have enemies.
But 1Co_15:22-28 says there are no enemies.
How can that be?
My answer is: The are purified/converted/reborn/... and now inside the city.
Your answer is: .....

Maybe someone else can help me here. As you all are aware/know English isn't my first language so I simply can't write down the small details in a clear way. Thanks.

[Pierac]

 Lee,

Again let's review... 2 Thess 1:9 is is refering to the Kingdom of God, not salvation as you understand.

For example Jesus said in Luke 4:43... But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

and continued this very preaching but added His twelve.... Luk 9:1  And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.

Yes, for years they healed the sick, fed the poor and preached the Gospel of the kingdom...Yet the twelve were missing some vital information... Luke 18:31  Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. Luk 18:32  "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33  and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34  But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

John 20:9  For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

You see Lee, Jesus was sent to preach the kingdom of God, and so he did with His twelve. All the while being slient about dying on the cross for the sins of the world, as noted by Luke 18:31-34.

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] : Dialogue with Trypho:

Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"

Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points  are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."

Lee, any one who dies in their sins, will miss out on the Kingdom reign, yet shall be resurrected in the end...

Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Read it again lee... 2Th 1:9  These will pay the penalty of eternal (Aionian) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10  when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

Lee, the eternal (Aionian) destruction ends at the second resurrection when "the rest of the dead come to life when the thousand years are complete"


You are confusing the salvation of all, with the Kingdom reign of His Christ.

Peace brother,
Paul

[claypot]

everyone,

Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.

How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.2thes1.7.....

I'm in the mood........ Some of my favorite words, those above.

I see a war within my very essence. Some 30 years ago something Divine was revealed to me. I see this as the Lord Jesus being revealed from Heaven as it says in the words above.

  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,  16  To reveal his Son in me,gal1.15

This Divine was revealed and mighty thoughts (angels) were created within me. These thoughts started destroying all that was not of God within me, all that did not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Divine.

These thoughts and beliefs are being and will be destroyed forever when the Christ is glorified within all my being.

I like to think Scripture is alive and relevant each moment of all of our lives. I know God is not talking a physical natural language in His Holy Word. It is a divine spiritual language that is telling us who and what we are and what our relationship is to Him. Every Word in the Good Book screams this out to me.

coglee, who will suffer eternal ruin, you ask? All that is not of God within you and I and all. So much in Scripture is personified and it seems to me that which is in me that is ungodly are 'those' who suffer 'eternal' ruin.

My two cents.

cp

[Tony N]

everyone,

Who will suffer divine justice, ETERNAL RUIN, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength.

How unfair I feel about this scripture does not matter. My vote does not count. Neither does yours. This is not up to be voted upon. God has spoken clearly. Who are the ones who will suffer divine justice and ETERNAL RUIN? The ones REJECTING THE GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST. THEY DON"T WANT IT NOW OR WHEN THEY WILL BE IN HELL.The heart does not change because of death. They will continue to sin and blaspheme God's name in Hell.( Rev 22:11) It is what it is. Rather you think its fair or not. Everything God does is just, nothing He does is unfair.

lee100, please get a better translated Bible.

(CLV) who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"

(GNT)  οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ,

(YLT)  who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

The destruction is eonian or pertaining to that eon. It is impossible to be eternal. The disciples were encouraged to destroy their souls so they would get them later.

Besides, how could it be eternal destruction? Especially when God is going to save all mankind as He promised in 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11. Or do you just love contradictions?

[lee100]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

[Tim B]

lee,

whatever you want to call it..lake of fire..gehenna. whatever...its a place of eternal ruin and torment. The very definition of Eternal is: ageless: continuing forever or indefinitely;.....Not temporary.

Would you actually go and do some research? Your arrogance and general lack of research is exceedingly frustrating. Another good idea: try to philosophize about what you believe. You insist on believing in an insane and absurdly sickening amount of garbage. Don't you dare pull the "God's ways are higher than our ways" excuse. God, in such an instance, anyway, was talking to the wicked, and Himself asked them to REASON together. Even God knows the WICKED can REASON. (Not saying you're wicked, but you can certainly reason.)

Try and rationalize Hell. Come on: DO IT! I dare you!

Answer this: if Hell is true, and babies do not go to Hell, then why the HELL are abortionists in THE WRONG in KILLING CHILDREN? At least they'll can be saved from HELL. And if they aren't: then God is even MORE of a monster. Torturing for ETERNITY INNOCENT CHILDREN!!

Answer this: how LOVING is it for two parents to have a CHILD with even a 50% chance that their child will go to Hell for ETERNITY??

Answer this: if a "loving" father had 10 children and decided to be nice to two of them, but was exceedingly cruel to the other 8: whipping and beating them all of their days, WOULD THAT be LOVING??

And after that, after you have NO RATIONAL ANSWERS (if Hell were actually true), go find yourself a conscience.

I don't expect you to find this message loving, but honestly, I don't know that, while I care about you, I can keep my deep disgust for your general attitude, "kind."

[Tim B]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

Completely opposite. Go do some research.

[jabcat]

tony,

Those translations were done by people who believed in universalism. Bias. Thanks.

Completely opposite. Go do some research.

Good posts Tony and TimB, and good suggestions, but.....

I'm afraid there's a problem; 

Hebrews 5:11-14   About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,  for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.  But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

[lee100]

tim,

1) Babies do not go to hell. Abortion is wrong because it is murder.

2) You assume all creation are God's children. This is false. You have to be re- born into God's family.( Jn3:3) Children and Creation are not the same.

3) Again you assume all creation are God's children. Not true.

4) my conscience is fine. Hell is not my call Tim. I wish no one would go there. God's call.

[Tim B]

tim,

1) Babies do not go to hell. Abortion is wrong because it is murder.

2) You assume all creation are God's children. This is false. You have to be re- born into God's family.( Jn3:3) Children and Creation are not the same.

3) Again you assume all creation are God's children. Not true.

4) my conscience is fine. Hell is not my call Tim. I wish no one would go there. God's call.

Do babies go to Heaven then? Because, if they do, then the abortionists are doing babies a favor: they get out of THIS life AND get to go to HEAVEN! At least, the abortionists are a lot more caring then their supposed loving "Heavenly" father. (Or, if they don't care for the baby, they're still doing he/she a favor.)

Oh, and Acts 17:29:

"29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;"

Offspring = Children
Children = Having a Father
Father = God (as Paul spoke of)

John 3:3 speaks of reigning with God, as Sons of God, but this is, if I understand correctly, only in the sense of being Sons of God as being the title of those that REIGN with God. But this doesn't mean that non-believers are not God's children.

This is even what Jesus said:

Matthew 23

"1Then Jesus spake to the multitudes, and [[not just]] to his disciples, ... 9and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens,"

Since there is ONE Father, anybody referred to as "Children of the Devil" can ONLY be in a figurative, but NON-LITERAL sense. Jesus is ALL MANKIND'S true Father (as Jesus said). Perhaps, Jesus could have said it like this, "You ACT as children of the Devil". Otherwise, if Jesus really meant they were the Devil's TRUE children, he would be contradicting himself when he spoke unto the multitude saying: ONE is YOUR FATHER.

And thank you: I'm glad you actually said you do not like the idea of Hell. That means your conscious (actually, I would say the Holy Spirit) is SPEAKING to you!  :bigGrin:

Seriously man, you should go do the research.

[sparrow]

edited because I just repeated what Tim just said.

[jabcat]

edited because I just repeated what sparrow just said  :laughing7: