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Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.

Started by lee100, August 22, 2009, 05:27:49 PM

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WhiteWings

#25
August 22, 2009, 08:22:27 PM
Lee100,

Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.

Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?

The answers to those questions are important for my understanding.
It seems to say that every nation that ever existed had at least 1 saved person in it. Correct?
I have a hard time believing that because there where and are lots of pagan nations.
And because belief in Jesus is the only way/gate to salvation  it gets even more problematic to understand.
Pagan nations 3000 years before Jesus was born had pagan religions plus they impossibly could have heard of Jesus because He wasn't born yet.

Can I conclude that only people in the nations that lived after the Gospel was spread have a chance for salvation?
But then it are not all nations. Before Jesus was born many nations just disappear.
I'm sure God didn't overlook the above so please explain how at least 1 person of a long gone nation 3000BC can recieve salvation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

Shadow

#26
August 22, 2009, 08:27:05 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
paul,

LOL. Bless your heart.   I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.

On the contrary, I've seen the opposite, I've personally seen your POV being successfully challenged and debunked by quite a few posters on there

From what I've personally seen, you've tried to find any loophole and means possible to try make your doctrine stick and your fallacious reasoning and arguments have been shot down one by one, if fact I was closer to the conditionalist position before you came on board to challenge the UR position, the arguments you've started and the points you've made which have successfully debunked have actually inclined myself further towards the UR position than ever :icon_flower:

lee100

#27
August 22, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
bobr,

Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

lee100

#28
August 22, 2009, 08:32:46 PM
whitewings,

Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.

Answer: Meaning men of every people and nation. not all people from all nations.


Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?

Answer: these men were chosen from the foundation of the world. ( Eph 1:3-6)

gregoryfl

#29
August 22, 2009, 08:34:49 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Ron,

This has become you and others denying the truth of the scriptures given to you. Then, when the light of those scriptures shines in your eyes.. you want the Light to be turned off.

Who is welcome here? Quote:"You will find us tolerant to your views so long as you do not feel it is your destiny/calling to convert/save us from your eternal hell or accuse us of leading others astray."

It is clear that you are doing this very thing, and as per this board, such is NOT welcome here.

bobf

#30
August 22, 2009, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
bobr,

Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Are you calvinist?  Are you trying to say that Rev 5:9 means that Christ did not die for all mankind?

  • Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Even if Revelation 5:9 is a subset of humanity, please quote the part that says Christ only redeemed these people.

  • Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
<br>
  • Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
<br>

WhiteWings

#31
August 22, 2009, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:32:46 PM
whitewings,

Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.

Answer: Meaning men of every people and nation. not all people from all nations.


Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?

Answer: these men were chosen from the foundation of the world. ( Eph 1:3-6)
Good verse. But that doesn't really answer my questions.
What about the long gone pagan nations? Their religion was pagan. So they didn't believe in the Son. Neither in Father or HS. Jesus is the only way to salvation. But those people didn't believe in the Saviour that would be born 3000 years after they died. They worshipped tree, animals and the sun among other things.
So how can at least one of them be "chosen from the foundation of the world" if they never did the required worship/believing in Jesus. Can you explain that contradiction?
Plus like I asked in a previous post "How about Noach (and other great ones)" God loved Noach. But Noach didn't worship Jesus (because he never heard of Him); is Noach now burning in hell?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

FineLinen

#32
August 22, 2009, 10:13:15 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
bobr,

Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

"All men" radically means all!

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Revelation 5:13 Robertson New Testament Word Pictures

Every created thing= pan ktisma.

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).

No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

WhiteWings

#33
August 22, 2009, 11:10:19 PM
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

Cardinal

#34
August 22, 2009, 11:44:16 PM
 :cloud9: Excellent post FineLinen, as was your other one. His reasoning leads one to question just who was it His blood was insufficient to purchase?

The answer of course, has to be none, since the whole idea of redemption is to redeem or purchase back from being "sold" into slavery to sin, which ALL MEN were. It is spitting on the blood of the covenant with which we were bought to disallow ANY.

As for your "light shining in our eyes" Cog/lee, take care that your light be not darkness. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor
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