Hey all my UR pals,
Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 05:27:49 PM
Hey all my UR pals,
Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.
More translative difficulties I see.
In the hebrew that word also means "populous" which would be all mankind because that is the context of the biblical story. But of course an english translation is where you rest your case with a word of your choosing to fit your doctrine rather than a word that fits scripture.
paul,
You have to twist the word of God and say " populous means all mankind". You are reaching in desperation because you refuse to accept the truth. Any biblical scholar will tell you that the "many" in this passage does not mean all people who ever lived. Read Rev 5:9.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 05:42:46 PM
paul,
You have to twist the word of God and say " populous means all mankind". You are reaching in desperation because you refuse to accept the truth. Any biblical scholar will tell you that the "many" in this passage does not mean all people who ever lived. Read Rev 5:9.
No twisting, that is the biblical message as a whole, not your piece meal arrogance.
paul,
2 Peter 1:20 " Know this first of all, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."
1 Corinthians 2:14 " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised or discerned."
100/37: The same mass of mankind "made sinners", are the mass of mankind made righteous! And, the same all who die in Adam 1 are made alive in the Last Adam!
LINK (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=462.0)
The insertion of the definite article, which the Authorized Version unwarrantably leaves out before the word "many" in each case, emphasizes the fact for which it was originally placed there, viz.-- that the company of the righteous is identical in person and number with the company of the sinners to which the passage refers.
"Of the travail of his soul, shall he see He shall be satisfied with his knowledge, A setting right when set right himself, shall my Servant win for the Many, Since of their iniquities, he, taketh the burden."
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 05:53:39 PM
paul,
2 Peter 1:20 " Know this first of all, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."
1 Corinthians 2:14 " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised or discerned."
Hi Lee I see you have made a personal confession by using those verses. Baby steps.
finelinen,
Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth? Is that were true then why does Jesus say this:
John 10:16
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
Notice Jesus does not say "All people" and "Every unbeliever" are His sheep. Just the ones that hear His voice. Otherwise he could not distinguish unbelievers as GOATS in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus does not say the Sheep and the Goats will become one flock, eventually. If "all people", including the GOATS, would eventually become His sheep this would be the time to say so, but Jesus does not. Hmmmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe this. I think I will trust Jesus.
Matthew 7:14 " For the gate is SMALL AND the WAY is narrow that leads to life, and there ARE FEW WHO FIND IT."
Notice that Jesus says "FEW" who find this life. If "All" find this life eventually, Jesus would say so, but He does not. Jesus is very clear "Few" find it. But the UR wants you to believe "All" will find this life. Hmmmmm. I think I will trust Jesus.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:08:26 PM
Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth?
A baseless assertion.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.
Lee,
Your answer is right here. Unless you believe that there were any who were not made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then many can mean all, as it does in this case. And that same all will be made righteous.
paul,
LOL. Bless your heart. I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 22, 2009, 06:17:35 PM
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.
Lee,
Your answer is right here. Unless you believe that there were any who were not made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then many can mean all, as it does in this case. And that same all will be made righteous.
CogLee believes that God created some for the sole purpose of being damned to hell therefore they never ever had any hope from the start.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
paul,
LOL. Bless your heart. I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.
No, you just posture this in your own arrogance. You have to defy your own expectations to make the case for your beliefs. While you expect us to refrain from empty rhetoric you use it right here. While you want specific scriptures based upon your own phrases of words, you use scriptures with explanations that use words that are not in those same scriptures.
You sir are a liar.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
paul,
LOL. Bless your heart. I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.
Indeed you have dropped many bombs. But never had the guts to stick around and see if the bomb did some damage.
Lee100, if you are really here to guide us to the light your aproach is completly wrong.
Just drop 2 or 3 or your bombs and then discuss the damage done. And by discussing I don't mean starting another thread or drop more bombs. Afterall you have full sight. We are blinded so we can't run like you. So help us by making small steps...
But that's not really your aim is it? You are here to destroy not to build.
I will just say for any moderators, in my opinion he is breaking the rules of conduct and should be handled appropriately. I think the evidence speaks for itself as to what this has become.
Ron
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
paul,
LOL. Bless your heart. I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.
Indeed you have dropped many bombs. But never had the guts to stick around and see if the bomb did some damage.
Lee100, if you are really here to guide us to the light your aproach is completly wrong.
Just drop 2 or 3 or your bombs and then discuss the damage done. And by discussing I don't mean starting another thread or drop more bombs. Afterall you have full sight. We are blinded so we can't run like you. So help us by making small steps...
But that's not really your aim is it? You are here to destroy not to build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:08:26 PM
finelinen,
Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth? Is that were true then why does Jesus say this:
John 10:16
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
Notice Jesus does not say "All people" and "Every unbeliever" are His sheep. Just the ones that hear His voice. Otherwise he could not distinguish unbelievers as GOATS in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus does not say the Sheep and the Goats will become one flock, eventually. If "all people", including the GOATS, would eventually become His sheep this would be the time to say so, but Jesus does not. Hmmmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe this. I think I will trust Jesus.
Matthew 7:14 " For the gate is SMALL AND the WAY is narrow that leads to life, and there ARE FEW WHO FIND IT."
Notice that Jesus says "FEW" who find this life. If "All" find this life eventually, Jesus would say so, but He does not. Jesus is very clear "Few" find it. But the UR wants you to believe "All" will find this life. Hmmmmm. I think I will trust Jesus.
:cloud9: What you don't realize is that neither talks of two types of people but of two types of NATURES within all men, and our response is what determines our nature. Which one we surrender ourselves to and how much "tribulation" it takes to get us there, determines the circumstances of our deliverance.
The word for goat runs into a word that means, to keep going in circles.
Unlike the sheep nature,which is our measure of faith to receive Him, that once spoken to will respond to His voice when He calls (I know you think YOU "decided" to turn to the Lord) them, going up over the mountain of flesh.
By surrendering to the goat nature of carnal man, the "goat" will go around and around the mountain of flesh until he wears a rut so deep, it takes Him going after the one that was lost, to pull him out of the "pit" he created for himself.
And again; if you would study the Tabernacle, you would realize that the "gate" and the "narrow way", are both references to the openings of the Tabernacle pattern, which get progressively smaller as you pass thru the 3 courts, effectively making sort of an arrow pointing the way into the holiest of all, the Most Holy Place.
The reason "few there be that find it", is because what is at the end of it is the high calling in Christ Jesus Paul spoke about, and only a remnant will find it initially, as God always deals with a firstfruits, first. It has NOTHING to do with the salvation of the others that don't initially find it, as you understand salvation.
What you do not yet realize is that these letters were written to a primarily JEWISH audience as they were brought into the Kingdom FIRST. Over the centuries, their "Jewishness" content of meaning has been lost to those of "gentile" backgrounds who do not know of nor understand the references therein. Therefore without bothering to study the pattern shown Moses in the mount, error abounds in Babylon, and THEY are your "teachers". Blessings....
"scripture bombs"
Lol, thats funny!
Scripture duds is the accurate metaphor.
For not one detonated.
There is no life in them.
Just dead letters.
Fifteen Bombs That Sank My Theological Ship
HERE (http://www.godfire.net/fifteen_bombs.htm)
BS,
They did detonate.
But the fact is that Lee100 uses hand grendes and still isn't aware he throws the pins at us :laughing7:
Good post FineLinen.
And WW, that's why "Christianity" consists of so many walking-wounded.
Ron,
This has become you and others denying the truth of the scriptures given to you. Then, when the light of those scriptures shines in your eyes.. you want the Light to be turned off.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 05:27:49 PM
Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.
No, UR does not want you to believe that "many" means "all". "Many" means "multitudes". It can and does refer to all mankind in some places while in other places it refers to fewer than all. Where "many" does refer to all, that would be based on the context, not on the word "many". Never seen anyone in UR argue that "many" inherently means "all". So what did you prove? Nothing.
bobf,
Many, is an innumerable number of people made up of all nations.(Rev 5:9) Right, in this case it means fewer than all.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:04:28 PM
bobf,
Many, is an innumerable number of people made up of all nations.(Rev 5:9) Right, in this case it means fewer than all.
"Many" is not always "an innumerable number of people made up of all nations".
Revelation 5:9 could be fewer than all, but not clear. Rev 5:9 has redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people, nation. Rev 14:7 has gospel preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, people.
Lee100,
Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.
Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?
The answers to those questions are important for my understanding.
It seems to say that every nation that ever existed had at least 1 saved person in it. Correct?
I have a hard time believing that because there where and are lots of pagan nations.
And because belief in Jesus is the only way/gate to salvation it gets even more problematic to understand.
Pagan nations 3000 years before Jesus was born had pagan religions plus they impossibly could have heard of Jesus because He wasn't born yet.
Can I conclude that only people in the nations that lived after the Gospel was spread have a chance for salvation?
But then it are not all nations. Before Jesus was born many nations just disappear.
I'm sure God didn't overlook the above so please explain how at least 1 person of a long gone nation 3000BC can recieve salvation.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
paul,
LOL. Bless your heart. I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.
On the contrary, I've seen the opposite, I've personally seen your POV being successfully challenged and debunked by quite a few posters on there
From what I've personally seen, you've tried to find any loophole and means possible to try make your doctrine stick and your fallacious reasoning and arguments have been shot down one by one, if fact I was closer to the conditionalist position before you came on board to challenge the UR position, the arguments you've started and the points you've made which have successfully debunked have actually inclined myself further towards the UR position than ever :icon_flower:
bobr,
Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
whitewings,
Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.
Answer: Meaning men of every people and nation. not all people from all nations.
Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?
Answer: these men were chosen from the foundation of the world. ( Eph 1:3-6)
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Ron,
This has become you and others denying the truth of the scriptures given to you. Then, when the light of those scriptures shines in your eyes.. you want the Light to be turned off.
Who is welcome here? Quote:
"You will find us tolerant to your views so long as you do not feel it is your destiny/calling to convert/save us from your eternal hell or accuse us of leading others astray."It is clear that you are doing this very thing, and as per this board, such is NOT welcome here.
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
bobr,
Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Are you calvinist? Are you trying to say that Rev 5:9 means that Christ did not die for all mankind?
- Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Even if Revelation 5:9 is a subset of humanity, please quote the part that says Christ only redeemed these people.
- Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
<br>
- Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
<br>
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:32:46 PM
whitewings,
Question #1:
Ok a selection out of all nations.
Does "all nations" means "100% of the nations"?
Note: I mean 100% of the nations. Not 100% of the people in those nations.
Answer: Meaning men of every people and nation. not all people from all nations.
Question #2:
Is it about nations at a certain date? Or all the nations that existed since the beginning of time?
Answer: these men were chosen from the foundation of the world. ( Eph 1:3-6)
Good verse. But that doesn't really answer my questions.
What about the long gone pagan nations? Their religion was pagan. So they didn't believe in the Son. Neither in Father or HS. Jesus is the only way to salvation. But those people didn't believe in the Saviour that would be born 3000 years after they died. They worshipped tree, animals and the sun among other things.
So how can at least one of them be "chosen from the foundation of the world" if they never did the
required worship/believing in Jesus. Can you explain that contradiction?
Plus like I asked in a previous post "How about Noach (and other great ones)" God loved Noach. But Noach didn't worship Jesus (because he never heard of Him); is Noach now burning in hell?
Quote from: lee100 on August 22, 2009, 08:27:18 PM
bobr,
Rev 5:9 is very clear. Jesus purchased with His blood "men" from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Not "all men". meaning all kinds of men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
"All men" radically means all!
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."Revelation 5:13 Robertson New Testament Word PicturesEvery created thing= pan ktisma.
Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).
No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.
If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
Quote from: FineLinen on August 22, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
More lost ones. Especially #5
http://top-vijf.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=61 (http://top-vijf.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=61)
:cloud9: Excellent post FineLinen, as was your other one. His reasoning leads one to question just who was it His blood was insufficient to purchase?
The answer of course, has to be none, since the whole idea of redemption is to redeem or purchase back from being "sold" into slavery to sin, which ALL MEN were. It is spitting on the blood of the covenant with which we were bought to disallow ANY.
As for your "light shining in our eyes" Cog/lee, take care that your light be not darkness. Blessings....