QUESTIONS FOR ChosenofGod37 (Cog)

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

That God does exist or you just flat out denying predestination and election exists in the bible.

How do you interpret Matthew 10:32-33?

You did not include the main point,  of course that God could exist, but if He does then your election is not secure and He is a liar.

You also posture the greatest religious fallacy ever.   That is if I deny someones interpretation it is equal to denying God and that is also a lie.

[claypot]

 

Paul,

That God does exist or you just flat out denying predestination and election exists in the bible.

How do you interpret Matthew 10:32-33?

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. mt1032-33

cog, how do these verses deny predestination and election?

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

That God does exist or you just flat out denying predestination and election exists in the bible.

How do you interpret Matthew 10:32-33?

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. mt1032-33

cog, how do these verses deny predestination and election?

cp

COG was implying that I was denying God because I denied COGs view of God. 

[Beloved Servant]

That was a sad statement Paul.
You see what he has done?

[Paul Hazelwood]

That was a sad statement Paul.
You see what he has done?

Well, not sure what you see.   I see that rather than accept that I do not share his view of God he has taken it upon himself to be the judge of my standing with God and stated indirectly that I am condemned.

I only point out the logic of certain views of God,  any one is free to continue to believe them, the true God will not forsake them.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

No Paul, I simply want your interpretation of Mt 10:32-33.

[peacemaker]

Below is a fantastic commentary of the interpretation of 1 Tim 4:1O

realize the "usual" translation invites a "universalist" interpretation,

    Does it? We don't think so. The word μάλιστα is singling out "those who believe" (Greek "πιστῶν") as the specific portion of "all men". He is the savior of all humanity, the Apostle is saying, but then he modifies the term "all humanity" by adding a modifier, which is that Jesus is the savior to the benefit of a "very high point on a scale of extent" — in other words, to the benefit of a SUBSET of "all men". That subset is the group that believes. Given the narrowness of the scale of intent demonstrated by this superlative adverb, we didn't feel that using the adverb "especially" suited the context of μάλιστα especially well (uh, pardon the pun...). So we used "that is" instead.

but doesn't the choice you've made amount to "taking sides" theologically?

    Quite the opposite. Since we don't think μάλιστα implies any universalism, but rather is specifically REFUTING universalism (since Jesus is called the savior of those who believe[!] and not just of all humanity), we're attempting to remove the taking sides that takes place if one renders μάλιστα as "especially" in 1 Timothy 4:10. Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).

"False religion and doctrine are created by taking a verse out of context, lifting it up and saying it means this." -- cog

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

No Paul, I simply want your interpretation of Mt 10:32-33.

ok, certainly.

It is a statement of assurance that Jesus will not forsake anyone.

It is proof that the confession that Jesus is Lord through the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God the Father will be honored and affirmed for all mankind in the most positive sense.

Salvation.

[Beloved Servant]

Paul,
He's a spider with a sticky web.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,
He's a spider with a sticky web.

I see your point.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

Jesus says if you confess Him before PEOPLE I will confess you before my Father...but whoever DENIES ME OR DISOWNS ME BEFORE PEOPLE, I ALSO WILL DENY him BEFORE MY FATHER.

Its meaning is clear and I'm mean CRYSTAL...This describes a soul-damning denial of Christ- not the sort of temporary wavering Peter was guilty of (LK 22:56-62)- but the sin of those who through fear, shame, neglect, delay, or love of the WORLD reject all evidence and revelation and decline to confess Christ as Lord and King, until it is too late.

[claypot]

Hey Paul, cog has been good for anyone seeking God IMO. He or she has a bit of a crush on you it seems (according to cogs own words a while back) so could you ask him or her ....

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. mt1032-33

cog, how do these verses deny predestination and election?

cp

[claypot]

Paul,

Jesus says if you confess Him before PEOPLE I will confess you before my Father...but whoever DENIES ME OR DISOWNS ME BEFORE PEOPLE, I ALSO WILL DENY him BEFORE MY FATHER.

Its meaning is clear and I'm mean CRYSTAL...This describes a soul-damning denial of Christ- not the sort of temporary wavering Peter was guilty of (LK 22:56-62)- but the sin of those who through fear, shame, neglect, delay, or love of the WORLD reject all evidence and revelation and decline to confess Christ as Lord and King, until it is too late.

cog, you say until it's too late. I read in the Good Book that His mercy endures forever while His anger lasts but a moment yet you seem to believe the opposite of what Scripture says concerning the majority of His creation (people wise anyway).

Hmmmmmmmmm.

cp

[Seth]

Paul,

Jesus says if you confess Him before PEOPLE I will confess you before my Father...but whoever DENIES ME OR DISOWNS ME BEFORE PEOPLE, I ALSO WILL DENY him BEFORE MY FATHER.

Its meaning is clear and I'm mean CRYSTAL...This describes a soul-damning denial of Christ- not the sort of temporary wavering Peter was guilty of (LK 22:56-62)- but the sin of those who through fear, shame, neglect, delay, or love of the WORLD reject all evidence and revelation and decline to confess Christ as Lord and King, until it is too late.

Actually it only shows a judgment. Jesus said to Paul YOU SHALL DENY ME THREE TIMES.

It is YOU CoG37 in all your scripture twisting ways who assert "not the sort of temporary wavering...." It is YOU who judge the TYPE of denial Peter was guilty of, and the scripture simply says that Peter denied Christ. Temporary wavering? Nice try at a euphemism. Peter DENIED Christ before men. Done. No need for me to insert "wavering" where it says "deny."

So when I see that Peter denied Christ, rather than to try to determine what sort or type of denial it was, when the scripture DOES NOT SAY what type, just that Peter denied Christ, then I conform my mind to the scripture rather than asserting my own beliefs.

To wit: "but whoever DENIES ME OR DISOWNS ME BEFORE PEOPLE, I ALSO WILL DENY him BEFORE MY FATHER." This does not denote a denial of anyone forever, just like Peter's denial of Christ did not receive an eternal denial from Christ. All I have to do is take the scripture for what it says and ignore your additions.

It is amazing to watch you break your own rules.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

Jesus says if you confess Him before PEOPLE I will confess you before my Father...but whoever DENIES ME OR DISOWNS ME BEFORE PEOPLE, I ALSO WILL DENY him BEFORE MY FATHER.

Its meaning is clear and I'm mean CRYSTAL...This describes a soul-damning denial of Christ- not the sort of temporary wavering Peter was guilty of (LK 22:56-62)- but the sin of those who through fear, shame, neglect, delay, or love of the WORLD reject all evidence and revelation and decline to confess Christ as Lord and King, until it is too late.

There is no scriptural basis for   "until it is too late"  so again as in many replies from you, you have offered me nothing I have to consider scripturally.

But you are free to believe in that illusion of God if you like.  

[Paul Hazelwood]

There are too many in the faith that believe in a God that they must appease as if the slightest waiver will cause retribution and fury upon them.

So much so that people deceive themselves into a place where they feel safe from a monster.  Yep that's right, I'm tired of screwing around.  Your not safe from such a God no matter how many songs you sing, no matter how many verses you post, no matter how many people you try to convince otherwise.


CoG the God you present is a monster, plain and simple, and of course it may be true that a monster rules the universe and no one can do a thing about it, but, I do not have to worship such a God.

The truth is that human nature has the truth already, human nature understands LOVE but our humanity makes it hard to see where it is.

Our nature also has fear, and we have to be taught to fear God in horror, we do not naturally believe that such a monsterous force exists it must be forced upon us through constant fallacy and lies.   

We know that humans have been almost unimaginably cruel, but we also know that there is a nature within humanity that seeks to STOP it.

So if us little puny humans will sacrifice and DIE to stop a torturous human being, then the proof of the REAL God is contained in that image.

And the real God does not choose to do that which is worse than the most evil human could do to another.


This will be my last comment to  COG,  COG you can have the last word back to me


Make it count.   

[lookingup]

cog:

So according to your answer He won't, even though He has the Power and the ability to bring each one of His children to the knowledge of the truth.

          I am glad that i don't know and worship the monster you do.

  If the god that you praise is in fact the supreme being that creates the untold billions of children of which the vast majority are doomed from the beginning of his creation for eternal torture and he COULD have brought them to the knowledge of the truth but just WOULD not, i do not want anything to do with him.

i KNOW He is not the monster you think He is.

I have read a declaration on another website here is just part of this individuals' declaration and i have the same attitude as he:

Why is it that, ALL of HUMANITY must, be set free?
Well, consider this--


It is because NONE of HUMANITY were ever ASKED or given a CHOICE.... in the following:

- to be conceived or created in the first place......
- if they would want to be born at all......
- as to whom their parents might be....
- to have a body of flesh and blood.......
- about their physical characteristics and even what sex to be.....
- about birth defects, mental illness, or retardation that they may have....
- to have "inherited" a weak and fallen nature of sin.......
- to be condemned by sin, from birth......
- to be bound onto disobedience......
- to be made sinners, ------because, the angels were not......
- to be under the penalty of death, from the very beginning of their life.......
- to be made, - liken unto sheep, constantly going astray.......
- to be an enemy of God......
- to be bound in stubbornness.......
- to be tested by evil spirits.......
- to be enticed with numerous temptations.......
- for the many trials to tests them……
- to live under a curse of sickness and sin.......
- for a life of pain, sorrows, troubles and tears.......
- for life on this earth at all.......

So why, is MANKIND being told by PREACHERS that they will be held ACCOUNTABLE for their SINS, - when they RECEIVED against their WILL,… and most definitely not by their CHOOSING, an INHERITED SIN NATURE from the first MAN ADAM?

--------------------------------------------------------------

So let it be known this day,
that if the LORD JESUS CHRIST, the son of the living God, who was put to death, was buried and rose from the grave:

- if He ISN’T the savior of the world, all men, as He says He is.....
1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14.
- if He DOESN’T save all mankind to the utmost, as He states that He will......
Heb 7:25.
- if He DOESN’T reconcile all that are lost, as He the Bible states that He will......
Col 1:10.
- if He DOESN’T make all things new, as He says He will.....
Rev 21:5.
- if He DOESN’T draw all men unto Himself, as He said He would do.....
John 12:32.
- if He DOESN’T ransom all men, as He states he already has....
1 Tim 2:6.
- if He DOESN’T justify all men, as He proclaims he already has....
Rom 5:18.
- if He DIDN’T taste death for every man, as the Scriptures declares He has....
2 Cor 5:15.
- if He DOESN’T make everyone alive, as He says he will....
Rom 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22-28.
- if He DOESN’T destroy all the works of the devil, as He says He will....
1 John 3:8.
- if all the iniquity of men, was NOT laid on Him, as the Scriptures says it was.....
Isa 53:6
- if He did NOT take away the 'sin' of the world, as the Bible says He did....
John 1:29.
- if He did NOT die for all, as the scriptures says He did....
2 Cor 5:15.
- if every knee will NOT bow unto Christ Jesus, as the Bible says they will….
Phil 2:9.
- if every tongue will NOT confess righteousness and strength in the Lord, as He says will happen….
Phil 2:9.
- if He will NOT have mercy on all men, as He said He has…..
Rom 11:32.
- if every creature in heaven and on earth will NOT say, blessing and honor be unto Him, the Lamb…..
Rev 5:3.
- if He DOESN’T abolish all death and sorrows, as He says He will do…..
1 John 3:8 and Rev 21:5 and Isa 25:8.
- if all the ends of the earth will NOT turn to Him and worship Him, as the Bible says will happen….
Psa 22:27.
- if God will NOT restore everything, as He says He is going to do….
Act 3:21.
- if there is NOT a renewal of all things when Christ sits on His throne, as the Bible says there will be…..
Matt18:28.
- if it ISN’T God’s will for all men to be saved, and His will cannot be thwarted, as the Scriptures declare…
1 Tim 2:4 and Isa 46:10.
- if He ISN’T the Good Shepherd, who seeks and saves every lost lamb, as the Bible portraits Him to be….
John 10:2.
-if He ISN’T the propitiation (covering) for the sins of the whole world, as He says He is….
1 John 2:2.

----------------------------------

Then, herein is my DECLARATION unto the UNIVERSE:

“ ……because the Savior of the World, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, does have the keys of HELL and DEATH…..
and if He WILL NOT deliver ALL mankind from their fallen predicament, which was instilled upon them not by their CHOOSING….

Therefore…..if eternal torment and torture for souls who die as lost is true, then….


I hereby state on - 10 October 2002 - that I DO NOT want any part of Jesus Christ whatsoever.
And - I hereby request that my name be removed from the BOOK of LIFE.
And - I hereby request that I be ACCURSED.”


My name is Allen J. Steinhauer, ….at Eau Claire, Wisc.


If anyone cares to read the full thought it can be found here:

     http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/1999         

[ChosenofGod37]

Looking up

You assume all God's creatures are His children..this is not so. You have to be born into the family Of God( Jn3:3)to be His children. There are 2 kinds of people in the bible: Children of God and Children of wrath (Eph 2:3)

[peacemaker]

"For God so loves the inhabitants ...."  (John 3:16)

"It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

I have seen his love for ALL, open your eyes and heart to him.

peacemaker

[claypot]

Looking up

You assume all God's creatures are His children..this is not so. You have to be born into the family Of God( Jn3:3)to be His children. There are 2 kinds of people in the bible: Children of God and Children of wrath (Eph 2:3)

A cog, I mean dog, will always return to its vomit. To them there is safety and security in it.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

I hereby state on - 10 October 2002 - that I DO NOT want any part of Jesus Christ whatsoever.
And - I hereby request that my name be removed from the BOOK of LIFE.
And - I hereby request that I be ACCURSED."


My name is Allen J. Steinhauer, ....at Eau Claire, Wisc.[/color]

I choose to be with the ones that God abandons.

[Shadow]

Then, herein is my DECLARATION unto the UNIVERSE:

" ......because the Savior of the World, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, does have the keys of HELL and DEATH.....
and if He WILL NOT deliver ALL mankind from their fallen predicament, which was instilled upon them not by their CHOOSING....

Therefore.....if eternal torment and torture for souls who die as lost is true, then....


I hereby state on - 10 October 2002 - that I DO NOT want any part of Jesus Christ whatsoever.
And - I hereby request that my name be removed from the BOOK of LIFE.
And - I hereby request that I be ACCURSED."


My name is Allen J. Steinhauer, ....at Eau Claire, Wisc.

I also agree with this, I could not love a "saviour" that would only save few....what has happened to me...it all started when I could not live with or accept the concept of eternal torture for anyone....it's so ironic, when I identified as christian I didn't really care about what happened to anyone else, although I was more guilty of indifference than cold hearted callousness, I was just happy that possibly I was secure...when I looked to the church for answers, the one given to me that we can't worry too much about others, we have to work out and worry about our own salvation became totally unsatisfactory (and somewhat selfish) to me...worse yet, when a christian councilor told me that the only reason they preach the gospel is because they don't know who God has chosen before the dawn of time (this was about 15 months ago before I was aware of the UR concept, I found that answer totally burdensome and depressing to say the least) :thumbdown: :mshock:

I confess I do still dislike people now and again, however I find the thought of people I dislike being tortured forever a total and unspeakable nightmare, just imagine how bad it is if I picture people I love being tortured forever...the thought of my worst enemy being tortured forever with no merciful pause is enough to actually make me begin to love them

It just cannot be true that God could save the world and never had no intention of doing so for anyone, let alone the vast majority of humanity ever created, that would make this life an utter travesty, not to mention a cruel farce and utter sham

I don't think it's an accident that I found this website, I didn't even know that there was such a thing as UR just over a year ago, all I do know is that I could never ever again be indifferent and unconcerned about others, like I once was

BTW I think "christian" is just a label anyway, one I prefer not to use myself anyway

Thank and praise God for the internet, if this had happened 10 years ago, I honestly don't know where I would be, I have noticed that the ETers arguments are starting to make less and less sense to me and I'm no easy pushover, I tried hard not to accept UR just because it actually makes sense and because my heart wanted it to be true, I had to be sure it was right

[Molly]

There are too many in the faith that believe in a God that they must appease as if the slightest waiver will cause retribution and fury upon them.

If that were so, this world would be a nicer place to live.  So it must not be so.

I think they could care less, myself.



Micah 6:8
He hath shewn thee, O man, what is good: and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with thy God?

[ChosenofGod37]

Shadow,

you said:
BTW I think "christian" is just a label anyway, one I prefer not to use myself anyway.

COG: Really? What do you prefer to be called? Being a Christian is being Christ-like, being a genuine disciple of his teachings and following in His footsteps. Maybe it is just a lable and doesn't mean anything to you because you are not one spiritually( Jn3:3), just one naturally( religious, by name only). If Christian was "just a label" why did God put it in the bible? ( Acts 11:26)  No offense, but your loosy goosy liberal thinking brings reproach to the body of Christ.

[Cardinal]

Looking up

You assume all God's creatures are His children..this is not so. You have to be born into the family Of God( Jn3:3)to be His children. There are 2 kinds of people in the bible: Children of God and Children of wrath (Eph 2:3)

:cloud9: They ARE all His children, CoG........there were two trees in the midst of the garden.........the tree of life (represented by the golden candlestick), and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (represented by the table of shewbread).

Therefore, according to the pattern shown Moses in the mount, which we are told is the pattern of heavenly things in Hebrews 10, then if the inner court is the MIDST of His garden, then the WHOLE THING is His garden. That means the outer court in which EVEN STRANGERS were permitted to enter, IS HIS GARDEN.

We all are the planting of the Lord, in which He has 'planted' a measure of faith to receive Him. His 'wrath' is poured out to push us into finding that measure of faith within to turn to Him, NOT to destroy the man, but the bondages holding the man.

Your problem is you have had the revelation yet that God speaks 'fractionally', ie. not to men only, but to PARTS of men. We are a spirit, who has a soul, who lives in a body. Ask Him to open your eyes. It is not a coincidence you are here. Blessings.....