Money and The Gospel-(Split From Another Topic)

[Seth]

We are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

DOESN'T YOUR BIBLE SAY THAT OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE?? THEN THEY ARE EMPHATICALLY NOT THE SAME BY ANY REMOTE STRETCH!!

You are misapplying that scripture.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

That is sacrifice BY obedience, not sacrifices resulting from disobedience, as in the case of Saul. Unless you think that Jesus was disobedient to God by offering himself a sacrifice for our sakes and that we ought not walk in his footsteps....

[sparrow]

I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

[SQ]

I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

All I can say to sparrows post is AMEN!  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

Some very good, inspiring points made, Sister Sparrow.  God's blessings of peace, joy, and love to you!

[Seth]

I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

WOW!

You singed my eyebrows with that one! Good word and amen

[sheila]

 Selling Doves in the TEMPLE

  and making MY FATHER'S HOUSE as merchandise.


  Babylon did this alot..sold spiritual things to make herself

  wealthy...commiting adultery with the Kings of the earth


   We know how Jesus Christ felt about this...HE OVERTURNED

  the tables in the temple..made a whip and drove them out...

   such ones,doing such things.


  a House of PRAYER or mankinds communion with GOD..being

commercialized into a money-making buisiness by scoundrels


   When our Father gives us gifts of His Holy spirit[doves]

it is for our edification in faith..and for all the body...we

are to share it freely.

   This,too, with anything materially we may have.

   Regarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.


  Trampling the GRACE of GOD Rev 11;2  But exclude the outer

court; do not measure it for it has been given to the gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months.


  Daniel 8;9,10  out of one of them grew a horn that started

small but grew in power  to the south and to the east and unto

the BEAUTIFUL LAND.

It grew until it reached the HOST OF HEAVENS, AND IT THREW

SOME OF THE STARRY HOST DOWN TO THE EARTH,AND

TRAMPLED ON THEM, IT SET ITSELF UP TO BE AS GREAT AS THE

PRINCE OF THE HOST.IT TOOK AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE

FROM HIM,AND THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS BROUGHT

LOW

  That is just how critical this matter is for the saints..


   Sell for any such  worldly profit of yourself and you are

  spiritually dead!!  Can you be resurrected from such a spiritual

state? Yes, for Christ is Lord of the dead and living.


   Follow Christ's example in regard to the temptation in the

wilderness, though satan offer all the kingdoms of the earth for

one act of worship in this manner. Mark 8;36  What good is it

if a man should gain the whole world,yet forfeit his soul.


   Now we know,,that...THAT GENERATION  DIED in the

wilderness..and did NOT enter the promised land.


  Pay very close attention to the three temptations presented to

  Jesus Christ in the wilderness. The Kindoms of the whole

earth,being one. For these same things are being offered to

the Sons of God ,over and over.And many have failed to enter

in,because of it.

  Now, Numbers 21;8,9  The Lord said to Moses,'Make a snake,

  and put it on a pole, anyone who is bitten can look at it and

  live"  So Moses made a  bronze snake and put it on a pole,

    Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the

bronze snake,he lived.


   Luke 10;19   I HAVE GIVEN YOU AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE

  ON SNAKES AND SCORPIONS AND TO OVERCOME ALL THE

POWER OF THE ENEMY,NOTHING WILL HARM YOU. HOWEVER,

DO NOT REJOICE THAT THE SPIRITS SUBMIT TO YOU,

BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN



   " I praise you,Father, Lord of Heaven and earth,because you

have hidden these things from the wise and learned

and revealed them to little children"

[Seth]

Amen

2 Corinthians 11:7-9
Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.

[peacemaker]

I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

"A fire insurance premium for filling their pockets of greed."

Eloquently expressed!


peacemaker

[Cardinal]

Selling Doves in the TEMPLE

  and making MY FATHER'S HOUSE as merchandise.


  Babylon did this alot..sold spiritual things to make herself

  wealthy...commiting adultery with the Kings of the earth


   We know how Jesus Christ felt about this...HE OVERTURNED

  the tables in the temple..made a whip and drove them out...

   such ones,doing such things.


  a House of PRAYER or mankinds communion with GOD..being

commercialized into a money-making buisiness by scoundrels


   When our Father gives us gifts of His Holy spirit[doves]

it is for our edification in faith..and for all the body...we

are to share it freely.

   This,too, with anything materially we may have.

   Regarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.


  Trampling the GRACE of GOD Rev 11;2  But exclude the outer

court; do not measure it for it has been given to the gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months.


  Daniel 8;9,10  out of one of them grew a horn that started

small but grew in power  to the south and to the east and unto

the BEAUTIFUL LAND.

It grew until it reached the HOST OF HEAVENS, AND IT THREW

SOME OF THE STARRY HOST DOWN TO THE EARTH,AND

TRAMPLED ON THEM, IT SET ITSELF UP TO BE AS GREAT AS THE

PRINCE OF THE HOST.IT TOOK AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE

FROM HIM,AND THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS BROUGHT

LOW

  That is just how critical this matter is for the saints..


   Sell for any such  worldly profit of yourself and you are

  spiritually dead!!  Can you be resurrected from such a spiritual

state? Yes, for Christ is Lord of the dead and living.


   Follow Christ's example in regard to the temptation in the

wilderness, though satan offer all the kingdoms of the earth for

one act of worship in this manner. Mark 8;36  What good is it

if a man should gain the whole world,yet forfeit his soul.


   Now we know,,that...THAT GENERATION  DIED in the

wilderness..and did NOT enter the promised land.


  Pay very close attention to the three temptations presented to

  Jesus Christ in the wilderness. The Kindoms of the whole

earth,being one. For these same things are being offered to

the Sons of God ,over and over.And many have failed to enter

in,because of it.

  Now, Numbers 21;8,9  The Lord said to Moses,'Make a snake,

  and put it on a pole, anyone who is bitten can look at it and

  live"  So Moses made a  bronze snake and put it on a pole,

    Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the

bronze snake,he lived.


   Luke 10;19   I HAVE GIVEN YOU AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE

  ON SNAKES AND SCORPIONS AND TO OVERCOME ALL THE

POWER OF THE ENEMY,NOTHING WILL HARM YOU. HOWEVER,

DO NOT REJOICE THAT THE SPIRITS SUBMIT TO YOU,

BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN



   " I praise you,Father, Lord of Heaven and earth,because you

have hidden these things from the wise and learned

and revealed them to little children"

:cloud9: AMEN....... :thumbsup: Failure to see this principle is as PROSTITUTING the gifts, as a temple prostitute. Blessings....

[sparrow]

Cardinal, I think I'm not understanding you, possibly. Do you agree with my post as well?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree with the principals shown. What I can't do is select one group to apply them to, when those same principals apply to all our hearts in one way or another, as all sin is common to man(kind).

And also, as I said in my previous post, God is not offended by great wealth; just the heart that worships it over Him. Blessings....

[Molly]

we are to share it freely.

Exactly.

Oddly enough, the young people today seem to understand this principle.  They share everything--ideas, music, --like one big mind.  It just seems to come naturally to them. 

But, wait--it drives the old foggies crazy--hey, there is a copywrite on that idea, that tune! lol

When stopped, they just find another way to share it

If I share a song with you, for instance, we both have the whole song, and neither one of us is diminished by it--a principle of God.  It's only a matter of time before this principle is extended to things material--and that will be the end of money.


1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[sparrow]

:cloud9: I agree with the principals shown. What I can't do is select one group to apply them to, when those same principals apply to all our hearts in one way or another, as all sin is common to man(kind).

And also, as I said in my previous post, God is not offended by great wealth; just the heart that worships it over Him. Blessings....

I agree, those same principals apply to all our hearts in on way or another...that's why I prefaced it by saying  "It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said."

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is do you agree with the basic premise of the word of faith movement? I just like to know other's beliefs. It helps me when reading their posts to understand their perspective a little better. Or is word of faith too broad of a term? I'm not sure.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

[sparrow]

:cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

sort of, not really... :laughing7:

You "believe the word of faith".. what does that mean?

[martincisneros]

Regarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.

Actually, Ananias and Sapphira were DELIVERED.  Remember when Jesus cast a demon out of a young boy and everybody thought Jesus killed the kid??  Same exact scenario here!!  I've had that happen in my ministry beaucoup times!!  They fell under the power of God and were taken out and water baptized.  Their hypocrisy was exposed and the spirit driving their flesh to do it was cast out.  I've had more than my fair share of folks fall dead in front of me, and it's always the same exact ends when the Word of the Lord comes to me and exposes a liar -- ultimate deliverance, and water baptism according to Romans and 1Peter -- not the putting off of the flesh in death, but the answering of a good conscience to God as they're formally washed in front of everyone by water typifying the Blood of Jesus Christ. 

St. Paul talks about speaking in other tongues and receiving the interpretation by faith and as you're laying hold of the mysteries of God thru edification of yourself, in 1Corinthians 14, then the sinner falls on their knees acknowledging that God is truly among you -- either immediately, or after they're knocked on their rear by God as something is departing from them.  Carry 'em out, dump 'em in water, and they're let back into the Church as is the case with the person that was living in filth in 1Corinthians that was accepted back into the Church in 2Corinthians lest they should be overtaken in worldly sorrow, i.e. they were water baptized!  That was their version of "sinner's prayer" and "prayer of rededication" and simply signified a parting with the world and inheriting the glory in Christ that they had before the world was, with Him. (Romans 6:4)

[martincisneros]

You "believe the word of faith".. what does that mean?

It's the perspective and Biblical discipleship disciplines some ministries and Churches hold to with regards to walking by faith and not by sight until every single need in this life is met and every body is healed, every demon is cast out, and every soul is saved.  There is no greater message on the planet.  It's simply needing an official public divorce from ET and "left behind" NONSENSE, since logically UR and the triumphant view of the Church in world history that some theologians would call "Postmillenialism" is the most Biblically consistent complements/condiments and necessary perspectives with regards to the future of a world inhabited by people who speak as Jesus speaks and do what Jesus does, and receive greater results than He ever did per John 14:12 and countless other Scriptures to that very effect! 

I'll publicly say it here, I am not a Universalist.  I am a Word of Faith preacher 'cause to me UR isn't THE MESSAGE, but is a necessary foundational truth for going forth to raise the dead, figuratively and literally, cast out the devil in His Name, literally and figuratively, and to heal every body and receive our Garden of Eden back NOW IN THIS TIME, AND IN THE WORLD TO COME EONIAN LIFE -- THOUGH OF COURSE WITH PERSECUTIONS 'CAUSE MANY FOLKS INCLUDING SOME AMONG US AIN'T GOING TO LIKE IT, HOWEVER....

WE'RE TO COUNT IT ALL JOY, KNOWING THAT THE TRYING OF OUR FAITH WORKETH PATIENCE, AND THEREBY WE'RE TO LET PATIENCE HAVE HER PERFECT WORK SO THAT WE'LL BE PERFECT AND ENTIRE AND WANTING NOTHING, BECAUSE THE LORD IS OUR SHEPHERD AND GOODNESS AND MERCY FOLLOW US ALL OF THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES!!!

We're taking this world over, in His Name; all judgment is committed to the saints over the world, the saints, the angels, the animals, and life elsewhere because AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD :bgdance:

[Cardinal]

I'll publicly say it here, I am not a Universalist.  I am a Word of Faith preacher 'cause to me UR isn't THE MESSAGE, but is a necessary foundational truth for going forth to raise the dead, figuratively and literally, cast out the devil in His Name, literally and figuratively, and to heal every body and receive our Garden of Eden back NOW IN THIS TIME, AND IN THE WORLD TO COME EONIAN LIFE -- THOUGH OF COURSE WITH PERSECUTIONS 'CAUSE MANY FOLKS INCLUDING SOME AMONG US AIN'T GOING TO LIKE IT, HOWEVER....

:cloud9: Neither am I, Martin.........interesting point about Ananais and Sapphira I never considered before. Blessings....

[sparrow]

 :laughing7: Ok you two. I'm getting more confused.  :laughing7:


Do you guys mean that the teaching of "reconciliation of all mankind" just isn't your main focus, then right? Meaning, you believe that all mankind will be reconciled back to God, but that that truth is just a basic truth, but not the main message?

Or are you saying that you don't believe that the reconciliation of all mankind is truth?

thanks guys..

[martincisneros]

I first noticed that about Ananias and Sapphira in my NASB, and my mouth fell open when hearing someone preach the traditional view of that.  When I got home, I went for my KJV that I had at the time, thinking I'd suddenly gotten my hands on a trick Bible, but reread it after rereading what I said about it above.  It's not there that anybody died over the ministry of righteousness/reconciliation that St. Paul says is emphatically different from the Mosaic ministry of damnation!

[jabcat]

Sorry Sparrow, don't mean to interrupt.  I'll say this quickly, get out, and let Martin and Card respond regarding the UR thing.  (Personally, I am a believer, a Christian that believes in the ultimate reconciliation of all - the Victorious Gospel"...that's my title  :laughing7:.)

:cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

Amen Card.  I really like your statement "but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness"...I believe that's the key, along with "THY kingdom come THY will be done".  I don't believe we can manipulate God by simply "naming it and claiming it", especially to heap things upon our own lust/lusts of the flesh.  I really think that may be where some of the "Word of Faith" camp has lost much respect, why so many see them in such a negative light.  For example, please don't try to con me into giving your "ministry" $1000 "and I'll send you this one of a kind gold eagle statue", and such similar things that are going on.

If God provides to an honest, wholesome, holy endeavor, IMO that's one thing...HIS blessing, HIS will, and even perhaps part of HIS process of establishing His government upon the earth.  But if it's just a con man conning, makes little difference to me if they have a cross over their door or CEO on their desk plate.  

[SQ]

Has anyone heard Mike Murdocks word of faith?
Everywhere he goes people are giving him expensive clothes watches cars and cash.
That is his message, I watch him in awe wondering why he maniupalates people, when he says it pains him to give.  :dontknow:

[martincisneros]

Do you guys mean that the teaching of "reconciliation of all mankind" just isn't your main focus, then right? Meaning, you believe that all mankind will be reconciled back to God, but that that truth is just a basic truth, but not the main message?

It's absolutely true, but God wants every single need met besides 'cause those that don't care for their own are worse than infidels, and God's no infidel and the Gospel justifies God as much as it justifies man: if not quite a bit more in the justification of all of God's ways that it offers.  And any preaching that doesn't justify God to absolutely all of man's needs isn't the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.  People want to stop at eschatology and say "all's well that ends well," but not many folks are all of that interested in the future until you've shown them how to get their bodies healed in the atonement, and how to pay these debts off and feed their children, even if it takes multiplication of the bread thru the Christ that's within them that's the hope of their children until they're of full age, discerning the difference between good and evil for themselves! 

The whole Kingdom is as if a man should plant a seed, and as he goes about his duties, then it grows up and becomes greater so that the birds of the air can rest in it's branches.  Mark 4:13 says that Mark 4 is the Kingdom.  So that, and lots of other Scriptures would verify and corroborate, the meeting of all of man's needs in their anointing, spirit, soul, body, finances, social life, ministries, etc. is the Kingdom of God.  Yes, it's very important to understand and know the totality of the Heart we came from and the Heart we're returning to, but that's not buscuits on the table, healing for folks in hospitals, and widows and orphans receiving their dead restored to them -- which is a part of the provisions of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it's about time that every single need gets cast out, so that our gratitude knows absolutely no end and the supremacy of Jesus Christ is abundantly proven above all of the religions, philosophies, and governmental systems of the earth! 

For every false idea put forth by the government, there is a plan in the Kingdom of God to meet the same needs that doesn't involve debt, shell games, situational ethics, etc.  The plan of God is a massive Exodus in our generation from debt to Pharoah since Scripture says service to God and mammon is IMPOSSIBLE and the borrower is the SERVANT/SLAVE of the lender.  Hearing and obeying Him each step along the way regarding one's own Jubilee is very very important, whether that's with regards to debts, one's own body, one's own mind in conformity with His mind, etc.  James says in the New Testament that without the meeting of man's practical needs, our faith and love are abundantly worthless, and God doesn't expect us going without a thing to that purpose, according to St. Paul's interpretation of God's grace as New Covenant manna in 2Corinthians 9.  The grace of God is the practical side of Love.

UR's the absolute truth when it comes to the Heart we all proceeded from and will all ultimately return into, regardless of the Hells we encounter along the way and have more than our fair shares of in learning obedience by the things we suffer as we're standing on His Written Word by faith and being to the world everything that Jesus is.  However, it's neither the total emphasis of Scripture, nor the primary emphasis of Scripture, otherwise, we'd not have sooo much confusion about it in the Body of Christ universally.  There's only a little over 700 verses about the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures.  Here's some reasons I've collected from Winchester's Dialogues (from the 1700s) on Why to, and Why not to preach UR, that are much more eloquent to what I'm trying to say than I could ever be:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2753.0

[martincisneros]

Has anyone heard Mike Murdocks word of faith?
Everywhere he goes people are giving him expensive clothes watches cars and cash.
That is his message, I watch him in awe wondering why he maniupalates people, when he says it pains him to give.  :dontknow:

You're looking at the fruit of someone that's walked in this for perhaps 50 years.  Big difference between him and someone that's within their first decade of having the Written Word of God as first priority and final authority in absolutely every area of life!  Big difference in being further down the road with prunings so that he's able to bring forth much, much, much more fruit, etc.

[Molly]

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.