Tentmaker Forum

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:04:16 AM
Context, please.  Are you putting out copies of scripture on a large scale, Seth?  If people are peddling things to get rich and take advantage, IMO, that's one thing and a problem.  Otherwise, not so much.

I am not putting out copies on a large scale. If I did, I would only do it if I was sure that nobody had to pay. Heal the sick (do you think that applies only to the physical?) Raise the dead (do you think that applies only to the physical?) cast out demons (do you think that applies only to the physical?)

The TEACHING brings healing and it was FREEEEEELY given to you and me. God did not lead you to the truth because you paid him. He gave you the truth freely and in so doing healed your blindness.

Freely you have received, freely give. No compromise.

Then answer this;  the workman is worthy of his hire.  Again, I see more than the constricted context which I believe you are using.  Do you think this ministry here is free?  I assure you, it's not.  Many are putting hundreds of dollars from their own pocket to allow you and I to type here this very moment.

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:12:39 AM
Then answer this;  the workman is worthy of his hire.  Again, I see more than the constricted context which I believe you are using.  Do you think this ministry here is free?  I assure you, it's not.  Many are putting hundreds of dollars from their own pocket to allow you and I to type here this very moment.

Do you think the website I put up, plus placement is free? I have received many emails from people who are being healed by the truth of UR. I don't ask for a nickle.

The moment this forum becomes a pay site, I'm gone.

The workman is indeed worthy of his hire, and Paul is clear that we ought to give to eachother, but he is also clear that he demanded NO pay from anyone but that he was cared for by those who also gave freely. Paul never charged money for his teaching.

The one who pays the workman IS GOD, the one who owns the vineyard, not the lost and homeless who are thirsty for wine.

I don't want to continue this much longer, it's off topic.  Did you pay money for your hard copy of scripture?   I've said I don't believe in taking advantage of people, and I MOSTLY even agree with what you're saying.  I just think there are some contextual issues to consider.  Believe what you feel at peace about.  We're all a work in progress.

P.S.  the cost of running TM was probably a bad example and best left unsaid.  There are better examples.  My mistake, apologies. 

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:29:00 AM
I don't want to continue this much longer, it's off topic.  Did you pay money for your hard copy of scripture?   I've said I don't believe in taking advantage of people, and I MOSTLY even agree with what you're saying.  I just think there are some contextual issues to consider.  Believe what you feel at peace about.  We're all a work in progress.

Sorry for going off topic a bit. So, I'll just say that the context of "give freely" is healing, and in realizing that healing the sick is not restricted to outer physicality, for those who were healed physically deserted their healer at the cross. He was alone up there. Anyone who has been healed ought to heal freely, and that especially includes the teaching, for the Bible is clear that the teaching DOES heal in the most important way: conversion of the soul.

Anyway, I have no problem with people PAYING for a Bible. My problem is with those that expect the pay for their costs of providing it. If those who are thirsty pay for wine, they do it because they are thirsty. But the one who owns the wine ought to expect his pay from the owner of the vineyard, not the one who thirsts.

Just MHO. Much love.    :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Thanks Seth  :handshake:.  I do it myself, and I just think I see us take such hard lines sometimes and be unwilling to entertain other ideas.  You said "No compromise"...think about that you (and me) paid for our copy of scripture (that's the only way it was available) yet to have a problem with those that we gave that payment to  :Chinscratch:.  I'm not sure that makes complete sense.  ADDENDUM/REVISION*****If we're hard-nosed about it and uncompromising at all, did we then go against our conscience, against our principles by buying our copy of scripture?  I have run across this today, and have tried to admonish myself with it in the past, and will now continue to do so again since I've been reminded of it;   "The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).  I'm the chiefest of sinners here, I overdo it...one way or the other, black or white, no reasonable middle ground, extremes.  This is me to me now;   :spank:     :bigGrin:.******


IMO, if you gave a thousand dollars to a rich charlatan (sp?) "hawking" the Word and trinkets to maintain their obscene wealth, and you received a gold-embossed Bible to put on display and show off, that would give me pause.  But I doubt that's what you did, and the people working in the printing and distributing of your copy could potentially be less off financially than you or I.  Just some thoughts before we draw absolute hard lines.  I'll let you have the last word, then let's get back on topic.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:45:20 AM
Thanks Seth  :handshake:.  I do it myself, and I just think I see us take such hard lines sometimes and be unwilling to entertain other ideas.  You said "No compromise"...think about that you (and me) paid for our copy of scripture (that's the only way it was available) yet to have a problem with those that we gave that payment to  :Chinscratch:.  I'm not sure that makes complete sense. 

IMO, if you gave a thousand dollars to a rich charlatan (sp?) "hawking" the Word and trinkets to maintain their obscene wealth, and you received a gold-embossed Bible to put on display and show off, that would give me pause.  But I doubt that's what you did, and the people working in the printing and distributing of your copy could potentially be less off financially than you or I.  Just some thoughts before we draw absolute hard lines.  I'll let you have the last word, then let's get back on topic.  :thumbsup:

Jab, maybe we could move the posts to another place rather than feel that we can't discuss it due to the topic. If you would rather not, then I won't continue. Anyway, I was hoping that my illustration was clear about the difference I see between the thirsty who pay because they have to, and the provider who demanding the pay.

The thirsty, who don't know any better, pay for wine if they have no other way to get it, and they are thirsty. The provider OF the wine ought to know better than to expect pay for that which brings healing to the thirsty. That makes sense to me.  :dontknow:

I don't EXPECT pay for the site I have. If people give me money, it would be without necessity, not because I communicated an expectation of pay for the work Jesus has graciously allowed me to do, when I am actually not worthy to tie his shoelaces. I consider my pay to be able to share the truth.

The Bible says not to worry about money. Even the little sparrows are provided for. But the wine he puts in our flask, He expects us to give it away without any expectation of pay from those who thirst.

Yes it is a hard line for me. I believe that hard lines are ok sometimes. Do you have a hardline on whether or not Jesus is the Son of God, and that He will save all? Are you open to the possibility that is not true? Not me. I take a HARD line on that.

Anywho, if you would like to continue this conversation we can do so on a different thread. Let me know.  :HeartThrob:

I'll trust you already know the answers to the questions you asked of me.  IMO, there a FEW things that are absolutes, essentials of the faith, that are no compromise positions.  Much of the rest, sometimes we take a hard no compromise position, when in fact, those things are His work in progress in us, as He reveals (much of the time, first needing to work on our stubborn natures) new insights and layers of truth about Him and His Word.  I could be wrong, my dim view and  :2c: worth.

Please read my revision/addendum to my previous post about not being overly righteous. 

I just see it that we need to use some discernment and judgment on this issue, not draw a line in the sand and say, "nope, this is the way it is...no exceptions, no reasonable balance..no mitigating circumstances".  My  :2c: is one size doesn't absolutely fit all.  If  "The thirsty, who don't know any better, pay for wine if they have no other way to get it, and they are thirsty. The provider OF the wine ought to know better than to expect pay for that which brings healing to the thirsty", then ABSOLUTELY!, give them what they need, and as believers, let's provide it for free and at our own cost!  And tell the charlatans fleecing the flock that they need to reconsider what they're doing.

But again, God has undeservedly given you and I the means to purchase a copy of scripture, and I would expect to again.  I DIDN'T pay Reverend Goldie Topaz $1000 for a $1 Bible so he could jet off to the Bahamas.  Different deal, IMO.  I could be wrong, but that's how I see it right now.  :afFro:

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 02:02:06 AM
I'll trust you already know the answers to the questions you asked of me.  IMO, there a FEW things that are absolutes, essentials of the faith, that are no compromise positions.  Much of the rest, sometimes we take a hard no compromise position, when in fact, those things are His work in progress in us, as He reveals (much of the time, first needing to work on our stubborn natures) new insights and layers of truth about Him and His Word.  I could be wrong, my dim view and  :2c: worth.

Please read my revision/addendum to my previous post about not being overly righteous. 

Jab you said: "If we're hard-nosed about it and uncompromising at all, did we then go against our conscience, against our principles by buying our copy of scripture?"

Jab, I think you have misunderstood what I mean, and maybe that is my fault. I am not saying that we should not care for those who are teachers, and that if it is understood between the teacher and the student and the body as a whole that the teacher should be cared for, then by all means, give and do it willingly. I think that is the point I am making.

Do you see the referrence to "do not muzzle the ox." The ox feeds of the grain in the field. So if you really want to be contextual, then you should acknowledge that the church in those times collected together all their money from willing participants of the body in order to CARE for eachother's needs. From that storage of "grain" or from that "field" the "ox" should be able to take from it as he needs. That is what I believe the scripture is saying.

I distinguish that from teach-for-pay setup for either unbelievers and believers are charged a price FIRST in order to access sound teaching - where one cannot receive the truth unless one is FIRST paid, rather than the teacher giving freely first, while subsidized by the BODY. It is the difference between WITHHOLDING teaching until paid, verses giving freely and THEN being cared for by the appreciative Body.

No teaching should be withheld for pay (which is not what I am saying about CPC in particular). I just don't think the Bible-for-pay approach reveals the point of the Timothy reference.

I don't have an argument with the main body of what you're saying now.  But I don't believe that's how the conversation started.  It was about purchasing a pamphlet, and it was stated that if a person couldn't afford it, it would be given to them.  I think my last post was pretty summarily what I believe.

I almost feel at this point as if we're both standing in the dark tossing pearls at each other, and mostly missing each other's noggin'.

 :cloud9: Hi; this too is something I've wrestled with, as I have a 'problem' with those who charge money for what we should give away as free, but I could also 'see' the laborer worthy of his hire side. As I read both sides of this here, something came into my mind.

There's a third 'way' and it involves the scripture about not making one stumble who is weak in the faith. I always looked at that as 'babes' in Christ being weak in the faith, but hit me was, that those who look to receive payment from other than God FIRST, are also what He means by weak in the faith (even if they are the big ministries we see on TV) and we are not to cause THEM to stumble, either.

In this way, the wisdom of both sides is preserved, and just as importantly, the one viewing the two sides has not caused EITHER to stumble. Blessed ME, I don't know about y'all, LOL. Blessings....

Yes!  Another way of looking at it.  Good show!  Food for thought.  Thanks, Card.

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 03:27:03 AM
I don't have an argument with the main body of what you're saying now.  But I don't believe that's how the conversation started.  It was about purchasing a pamphlet, and it was stated that if a person couldn't afford it, it would be given to them.  I think my last post was pretty summarily what I believe.

I almost feel at this point as if we're both standing in the dark tossing pearls at each other, and mostly missing each other's noggin'.

Maybe weren't really missing eachother's noggin that much since we seem to be in agreement to a large degree. Yes, it was stated that if a person could not afford it, it would be given to them. However, to me that misses the heart of it though. For me the heart of it is NOT placing the price tag on the work in the first place. It reverses the order.

The reference to the OXEN in the teaching to Timothy reveals much to me in how we should approach this subject. The ox is not paid first, nor does the ox put a price tag on the work. The oxen are put out to work and along the way are allowed to partake of the grain. In the case of the teachers in the early church, they gave freely. Nothing in the NT supposes that a price tag was placed on sound teaching before it was given as it is in an $8 pamphlet. The advise is saying that IF a workman needs resources from the stores, he ought to be able to take it without being chastised. Putting a price tag on teaching REVERSES that order and demands money FIRST. In fact Paul took his own advice and took money from the collection, which he considered "robbery" because he was so loving. He made it clear that he would not take money from a babe.

Attaching a formal price tag in a blanket fashion so that both unbelievers and believers are placed in a position to ask if they can recieve it for free is not the point and is contrary to the "give freely" nature of the Gospel. Nobody should have to request that. Teaching God's word should be freely given from the start, with the understanding that if the ox needs to eat the grain after a good day's work of freely giving, he ought to be able to do that.  

A price tag cannot be placed on something that is, by nature, priceless.

WOW.
Seth, that last line is beautiful.

I say tell that to rip-off charlatans of Babylon.  IMO, it may be easy for us to sit here and say no one printing literature should ask for payment to recoup costs.  But then, as you say, no you don't supply printed copies of scripture en masse, nor do I.  Perhaps if it were left up to us, it wouldn't get done.

Again, I'm not for ripping people off, and things should be provided for free to those that need it that way.  I just really doubt any one of us has the complete and unable-to-be-further-enlightened POV on this, or most things we dig in about.

As far as unable to access sound teaching?  Most of CPC's material is free online.  Yet that's not the total answer though, because not everyone can read or access the internet.  But then that's my point.  Usually, not one single "no compromise" position fits all the possible scenarios that can in reality take "being all things to all men that I may win some".  And if that's out of context, then this one; hmmm, I'll think of one and get back to you later  :laughing7:   :HeartThrob:.

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 04:19:21 AM
I say tell that to rip-off charlatans of Babylon.  IMO, it may be easy for us to sit here and say no one printing literature should ask for payment to recoup costs.  But then, as you say, no you don't supply printed copies of scripture en masse, nor do I.  Perhaps if it were left up to us, it wouldn't get done.

The way I approach that is that God chooses who He chooses and heals who he heals. My job is not to try to "get the job done" but do whatever I can within the scope of the instructions given to me, and let God use that to his own.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteAs far as unable to access sound teaching?  Most of CPC's material is free online.  Yet that's not the total answer though, because not everyone can read or access the internet.  But then that's my point.  Usually, not one single "no compromise" position fits all the possible scenarios that can in reality take "being all things to all men that I may win some".  And if that's out of context, then this one; hmmm, I'll think of one and get back to you later  :laughing7:   :HeartThrob:.

James, I just want to clarify the "no compromise" thing. The "no compromise" is INTERNAL, all about the intention. Jesus is clear that it should be freely given. Anything less than an attitude of FREE giving, without demand of compensation first, that is compromise. I know saying that won't make me many friends, because when money gets involved things get sticky  :upset:

In being all things to all people there is no compromise if the teaching of Christ is being followed. Appearing to be a Jew does not mean one believes circumcision is the way to gain righteousness. Compromise starts with the INTERNAL. A compromise is a bargain, or an agreement between two differing sides. The other side of "give freely" is generated by the concern about money and how much it takes to do this and that. This concern about money, which Jesus tells us not to have, naturally works against the idea of giving freely. Compromise is reached when the attitude is "well, it's not like I am making a profit, just recouping cost." It's compromise because it is an agreement reached which makes the work no longer free, even if it doesn't generate a pronounced profit. The problem is that the "free" aspect is not satisfied by the agreement, but the concern over money is satisfied. The bigger problem is that there shouldn't be a concern about money in the first place, and therefore no agreement.

Quote from: Seth

A price tag cannot be placed on something that is, by nature, priceless.

Tell that to Chuck Missler.

http://www.studycenter.com/account/subscriptions_available (http://www.studycenter.com/account/subscriptions_available)

Lifetime Scholarship
    Prepaid Lifetime Scholarship $5000 (value: priceless)
:sigh:

Doug

Doug;  LOL...there's a thousand of'em.

Seth;  That's good.  He'll let you know.  Perhaps we don't know that God hasn't spoken to those at CPC, in His using them as He chooses to use them, to set up the way they carry out their ministry and cover their expenses to mass produce and distribute the CLT and related material.  They are doing things most are not, so IMO, God has placed them where they are.  On a scale of degrees, I just don't personally see them as GENERALLY being out of line with fleecing, money-grubbing, living lavishly, abusing the sheep.  On the same scale, it seems there many that are. 

I understand your thoughts of no compromise being internal, and IMO, that's honorable.  Yet if were to be the case to attempt to then generally apply that to any and all circumstances, every ministry, every individual, would be where I would begin to pause and suggest reconsidering there might be other possibilities and issues.  But as I said earlier, believe what you are at peace with, and we are all His work in progress.

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 06:11:58 AM
Doug;  LOL...there's a thousand of'em.

Seth;  That's good.  He'll let you know.  Perhaps we don't know that God hasn't spoken to those at CPC, in His using them as He chooses to use them, to set up the way they carry out their ministry and cover their expenses to mass produce and distribute the CLT and related material.  They are doing things most are not, so IMO, God has placed them where they are.  On a scale of degrees, I just don't personally see them as GENERALLY being out of line with fleecing, money-grubbing, living lavishly, abusing the sheep.  On the same scale, it seems there many that are. 

I understand your thoughts of no compromise being internal, and IMO, that's honorable.  Yet if were to be the case to attempt to then generally apply that to any and all circumstances, every ministry, every individual, would be where I would begin to pause and suggest reconsidering there might be other possibilities and issues.  But as I said earlier, believe what you are at peace with, and we are all His work in progress.

I agree. Applying a no compromise approach could even lead to someone losing a life.  :HeartThrob:

Much love brother.  :HeartThrob:

I think there is a certain balance to be found here.
There a lot of shades of grey between free and a rip-off.
The Word is free. But are the translations, printing, shipping, commentaries, salaries?
How widespread Bibles and Bible study material (books, software, audio, etc) you think would be if it all was for free?
Imagine a Bible only written in the original  Greek. Many, even Greek people, would have problems reading it. And my guess is that only handfull of Hebrew speaking people can read the Paelo-Hebrew that the OT was written in.
As Jabcat mentioned the workwan deserved some pay too.
Personally I wouldn't even mind to pay a little for forum access. Hosting isn't free. And in general paying (perhaps) allows spredaing teh word on a larger scale.
Perhaps that's a more positive way look at it. When you pay for Bible/Bible related material you don't pay for the material you bought but you hire the seller to spread it even more widely.

Speaking of money and the gospel...

These are the folks I have an issue with. (http://bligbi.com/2008/01/30/a-look-at-kenneth-copelands-empire/)

Granted, I'd rather shine the spotlight on uplifting things. But I can never seem to be able to bite my tongue when it comes to this stuff. I know people will make excuses for them and say that it is ok, but I will never see this as being ok. Turning the word of God into a massive wealth-builder.
Instead of focusing on LOVE. The focus is on the love of money it seems.
The message being it is wealth that brings happiness...
What about GOD being your source?

:dontknow:

"Four private jets, an airport/strip and a lakeside house over 18 thousand square feet in size?"   :feint:. 

 :cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 08:42:28 AM
Personally I wouldn't even mind to pay a little for forum access. Hosting isn't free. And in general paying (perhaps) allows spredaing teh word on a larger scale.
Perhaps that's a more positive way look at it. When you pay for Bible/Bible related material you don't pay for the material you bought but you hire the seller to spread it even more widely.

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

If services are NOT rendered due to money (whether it be a pre-pay price tag, or stopping the work until being paid) that is where I have a problem. If an "ox" is working from a "giving freely" point of view, it doesn't stop the work if the grain of the field is not available. But if it is available, the ox should be able to take what it needs.

That is the balance I see between Christ's and Paul's words.

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:39:46 PM
The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 07:25:15 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:39:46 PM
The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

:goodpost:    Good balance.  I'm glad you mentioned the books for sale at the Tent, and put it in such good perspective.  I thought about it but didn't want to be the one to bring it up  :laughing7:.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 05, 2009, 05:28:04 PM
:cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

I could not disagree more.

I have a lot to say to this...
but don't have the time.
wil come back later tonight.
peace.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 05, 2009, 05:28:04 PM


So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

Good points.  IMO, it's not necessarily the wealth, but more how it's obtained...which would indicate the condition of the heart, I would think.  I keep saying charlatans, fleecing, abusing the flock; also that one needs to use discernment and good judgment.  

Just a thought though...wonder if the rich OT guys were "business men", i.e., managed crops, herds, etc., (made an "honest living" with God's blessing upon them) or made appeals to old ladies on TV for them to "sow faith seeds" into their ministries, or that those attending the conference should contribute to the point of going hungry that night, while the "minister" and her husband stayed in a thousand dollar per night hotel that night after the program?   :Chinscratch:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 07:25:15 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:39:46 PM
The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 07:42:28 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 05, 2009, 05:28:04 PM


So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

Good points.  IMO, it's not necessarily the wealth, but more how it's obtained...which would indicate the condition of the heart, I would think.  I keep saying charlatans, fleecing, abusing the flock; also that one needs to use discernment and good judgment.  

Just a thought though...wonder if the rich OT guys were "business men", i.e., managed crops, herds, etc., (made an "honest living" with God's blessing upon them) or made appeals to old ladies on TV for them to "sow faith seeds" into their ministries, or that those attending the conference should contribute to the point of going hungry that night, while the "minister" and her husband stayed in a thousand dollar per night hotel that night after the program?   :Chinscratch:

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 07:58:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 07:25:15 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:39:46 PM
The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

But why not just give everything freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

The very concept of money has the idea of scarcity built into it.  One has money, one doesn't.  One is rich, one is poor.  Some systems make everyone equally poor except the leaders (communism/socialism).  Some systems make some very poor and some very rich--haves and have nots.   But there is never an equality and always scarcity.  The scarcer and/or more desirable something is, the more it costs.

This is not God's economy.  This is satan's economy.  God's economy is based on abundance.  Therefore, God's economy is not and will not be based on an exchange of money.  

Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Quote from: Cardinal on August 05, 2009, 05:28:04 PM
:cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

Oh yeah!  Those guys in the Old and New Testaments were billionaires and beyond.  There is absolutely no godliness that's not Psalm 1, Psalm 23, and Psalm 112 godliness 'cause wickedness in this world has thrown down the gauntlet with money.  Righteousness in the Bible is one of those things like Peace in the Bible (get your Strong's Concordance!!) where it means $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You may not find Strong's conclusive on that, but you'll see enough to make you get really deep into the lexicons about it 'cause it'll minimally be deeply interesting and worth a closer look in whatever's been your growing collection of microscopes for the Bible so far.  There's a lot of other words in the Bible just like that that are used around here 250 times a day [in hundreds of unrelated contexts] that if each of us were as thorough as we should be, we'd pick up a Bible after our research into each of those vocabulary words and start giggling that this Bible's promising us the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and had to have been written by Leprechauns 'cause it's a darn treasure map and it's saying "obey this to find....."! :laughing7:

Just because Catholicism and other religious systems abused it, doesn't mean there wasn't some godly foundation that they were trying to counterfeit, in some ways by both sincerity and naivete about how God's Kingdom functions, and lots of us are aware of crooks along the way as well -- though it's not our job to calculate which were which 'cause then God's Anointing starts resisting us, if we're judging by outwards appearances rather than making the righteous judgments that Jesus said in the Gospel of John that we better be making!  Some of the biggest, biggest, biggest harvests I've ever gotten of the Deuteronomy 1:11 thousand-fold and beyond, per our having a better covenant established upon better promises, has been from actually sowing into mega ministries BECAUSE they'd already gone thru their seasons of pruning so that they could bring forth MUCH MORE FRUIT.

So to say that seasons of pruning aren't so you'll bring forth MUCH MORE FRUIT is to totally callously MOCK GOD!!  Godliness WITH CONTENTMENT is GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GAIN :Sparkletooth:

I haven't said too much about it to the woman I'm marrying, but the Holy Spirit spoke up a while back and said we're going to be QUADRILLIONAIRES :bgdance:

That's up to Him, though.  The Biblical balance is to be, as someone coined the phrase years ago "GOD CHASERS" per Joshua 1:8, Psalm 119, Luke 6:40, John 15:7, Colossians 3:12-17, et. al.  The timing [and the "how"] ain't none of our business!!  I've already been giving again over the last few days as though everything He's ever told me were 100% true, and my fanaticism about that would be genuinely scary to anyone in the natural with my income level right now if they hadn't done all that was within them since midnight, January 1, 1990 to walk in the New Covenant as first priority and final authority in absolutely all things!  When a guy's as serious as I am about the love of his life and possessing his bride by year's end, then natural reasoning would dictate hoarding like a pack rat if one's bank statement weren't still being brought captive to the obedience of Christ.  But He told me earlier this year, when I was choking on that, that when He asked me if I'd like to marry her by year's end, He didn't look at my bank account before asking me!

Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness -- which in my case, has had the unusual aspect of Proverbs and Song of Solomon regarding the coronation of the king with the crown of his bride that's come to the time period appointed by the Father in Galatians 4 -- and all of these things, i.e. the material necessities of life, per Matthew 6, are being added to me.  For other folks, seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness may translate from the Holy Spirit thru the Scriptures into an entirely different meditation, willingness, obedience and rejoicing with gladness and joyfulness of heart project that He expects of their thanksgiving and follow thru.  Colossians 3:12-17 has to be and become the unfolding manifold laws of absolute oppulent abundance for each and every single one of us, regardless of where He decides to take that in 15 to 20 years from the moment one's signed up for His service!  How that baptism with the Holy Spirit is worked out in each of our lives is going to be different for each of us.  I'd fasted nearly 80 days when the Holy Spirit spoke and said that myself and my betrothed had dreamed of each other for a little over 31 years 'cause my very very first prayer at 2 years old was for my wife, and He said I was heard from the first day that I prayed.  My knees are knocking over Jeremiah 33:9 'cause I'm totally transfigured now with that revelation to me from Him!

I think a lot of people get their feelings hurt over this subject of Kingdom Oppulence 'cause they think, unconsciously, that it's being stated or implied that it relates to their value or wholeness.  This is something related to Sonship, per Galatians chapters 4 and 6, all of Ephesians and Hebrews, and the strength of the Lord per 2Corinthians 9 and countless, countless other passages.  Equipped for the mission isn't the same thing as the Lord's love for you.  However this is the number one area that everyone at least once in their lives questions how much He loves them over, and if that day's not come to anyone yet that's on these boards, you're in for quite the surprise if the economy ever does worse to you and you listen to what comes out of your mouth to Him!  It doesn't bring you your value or wholeness, but it definitely can create your brokenness when you see needs you're "powerless" to do anything about, and are in the book of James living of telling multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision to go, be blessed, warmed, and filled, while you do only minimally for them when 2Corinthians 9, Paul's writings to Timothy, and other passages speak of being thoroughly equipped; thoroughly furnished for EVERY GOOD WORK.

YOU WILL NOT FULFILL WHAT YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE TO HIM FOR WITHOUT $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Plain and simple, and I'd dare attach your "well done, you good and faithful servant" to ANYBODY'S CALLING AROUND HERE based on that.  That alone won't bring about all of His purposes in your life and I'm neither stating nor implying THAT, but think thru every detail of what's honestly on your heart to present to Him, and be real for a minute, and tell me you're selfish enough to do nothing extravagent for Him even once, as the woman that poured the Spikenard on Him.  Likely no one here is that selfish, but perhaps there might be someone here either now or eventually that'll have it dawn on them that they'd simply never thought thru their love for Him before PRACTICALLY.

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 07:58:17 PM
But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

First of all because I have no real trust in that. Yeah I'm bad...but that's how I feel.
If God provides.....well I withdraw all my concerns.
I'm just not at that point yet  :mshock:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:39:13 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 07:58:17 PM
But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

First of all because I have no real trust in that. Yeah I'm bad...but that's how I feel.
If God provides.....well I withdraw all my concerns.
I'm just not at that point yet  :mshock:

Take this as encouragement. We all have to grow to a place of trust. I am still growing into it myself. Christ's words are radical and demand a supernatural change in us to trust them fully.
:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:01:26 PM
Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.
That's what I mean by balance. Free is good. Greed is bad. Little teaching is fine. Full time teaching is great.
And no I'm not trying to say only the rich can hear the Word.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:44:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:01:26 PM
Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 09:56:50 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:44:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:01:26 PM
Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

We are running in circles now. :laughing7:
The only reason I say let some people pay is that Paul can preach more.
Say he had to make tents 5 hours a day to provide his living. If some rich man had given him a pot of gold he could have preached 5 hours a day more. That's and stop starving are the only reason I speak about making money. Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I think we have to agree to disagree. Peace Seth. :wink:

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 09:56:50 PMWhy should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

Don't know which Bible you've been reading, but there's not a thing in it from cover to cover that says the Gospel is even remotely free BY ANY STRETCH OF YOUR IMAGINATION.  It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have, and those that remain truthful, loving, and joyful to the end will experience ABSOLUTELY ALL HE HAS TO OFFER, IN THIS LIFE AND IN THE WORLD TO COME, INCLUDING THE HUNDREDFOLD+ FOR BOTH, PLUS PERSECUTIONS :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:04:45 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 09:56:50 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:44:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:01:26 PM
Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

We are running in circles now. :laughing7:
The only reason I say let some people pay is that Paul can preach more.
Say he had to make tents 5 hours a day to provide his living. If some rich man had given him a pot of gold he could have preached 5 hours a day more. That's and stop starving are the only reason I speak about making money. Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I think we have to agree to disagree. Peace Seth. :wink:

WW, I think we are talking about different things.

1) If a rich man gives money FREELY to Paul so he doesn't have to make tents

that is different than...

2) If Paul requires the rich man to pay before he can receive what Paul was able to provide.

To me the difference is utterly clear. So I am still not even sure if we disagree on that, which means we wouldn't even need to agree to disagree.  

:dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:04:45 PMNot for buying your 4th private jet.

But I like my fourth private yet! :bgdance:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 05, 2009, 10:08:51 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 09:56:50 PMWhy should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

Don't know which Bible you've been reading, but there's not a thing in it from cover to cover that says the Gospel is even remotely free BY ANY STRETCH OF YOUR IMAGINATION.  It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have, and those that remain truthful, loving, and joyful to the end will experience ABSOLUTELY ALL HE HAS TO OFFER, IN THIS LIFE AND IN THE WORLD TO COME, INCLUDING THE HUNDREDFOLD+ FOR BOTH, PLUS PERSECUTIONS :Sparkletooth:

Martin you are not applying my words as to their intent. You are applying a DIFFERENT concept to my words. I am talking about MONEY. God does not require us to PAY BEFORE RECIEVING HIS FREE GIFT. Hello?

He requires us to sacrifice everything to GIVE IT FREELY TO OTHERS.

That sacrifice will be repayed BY GOD to us, not by making other people pay. So please bro, save the "I don't know what Bible you are reading" nonsense for someone else.


:sigh:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 05, 2009, 10:11:45 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:04:45 PMNot for buying your 4th private jet.

But I like my fourth private yet! :bgdance:

Is the vapor of the chilli peper comming out of your ears Martin? :fool:
Or perhaps even that "Madam Janet" stuff  :flamebreath: :flamebreath:
I heard you can't even fly a paper plane.... :declare:

So Seth, a person is required to go to war at their own expense?  And the ox that treads the grain is to be muzzled?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:22:07 PMI heard you can't even fly a paper plane.... :declare:

Actually, I was about to head to the airport, but my flight just got canceled.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 05, 2009, 10:22:47 PM
So Seth, a person is required to go to war at their own expense?  And the ox that treads the grain is to be muzzled?

Oh my goodness Martin, you are not paying attention to what I have said.

No Seth, we're not required to sacrifice.  We're redeemed from sacrifice, and sacrifice right now is offering up strange fire.  Obedience to Him is what matters, moment by moment adhering to that Proceeding Word.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 05, 2009, 10:27:22 PM
No Seth, we're not required to sacrifice.  We're redeemed from sacrifice, and sacrifice right now is offering up strange fire.  Obedience to Him is what matters, moment by moment adhering to that Proceeding Word.

We are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

   Paul spoke of himself as if one born out of season. He was a

  true Benjamite[youngest tribe]

 Jesus instructed His disciples to do different things at

 different times. Take no purse, take a purse....I think these

 things depended on the climate of the times.


  Now, here we are...christendom has the gospel in ill repute

due to greedy charlatans and hirelings..that feed themselves..

 and many ministries are nothing less than get rich quick

  family buisiness's .

  Each of us must give account to God...and no-one else...


  He says..if we aren't trust-worthy with worldly wealth..

 who will give us our own true treasures?.


 Look what Judas missed out on..lining his pocket with worldly

 wealth. Sure...he ended up giving the money back to the

 church!


  The potter's field was bought to bury the poor.!![let the dead

 bury the dead]


 Now, there was a woman with an alabaster cask of oil[a years

 worth wages] She poured it on Christ.In preparation for His

 burial.And a rich man gave the tomb for Jesus to lie in.


  I have met people who have wealth..but are not lovers of

 money. And I have met people who are poor and destitute

 who do love money.

  I have seen someone steal who was not in any need,but in

fact had an abundance. I have seen some-one in need that

refused to take,and did without in their need.


  Jesus said,in regard to Paul, 'I will show him what he must

suffer for my name's sake" 2 Cor 11;27


  2Cor11;7  Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to

elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you,free of

charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from

them,so as to serve you.......please read...


 v12  And I WILL KEEP ON DOING WHAT I AM DOING

 IN ORDER TO CUT THE GROUND FROM UNDER THOSE WHO

WANT AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE CONSIDERED EQUAL WITH US

IN THE THINGS MEN BOAST ABOUT.


  FOR SUCH MEN ARE DECEITFUL WORKMEN,MASQUERADING AS

 APOSTLES OF CHRIST. AND NO WONDER,FOR SATAN HIMSELF

 MASQUERADES AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT





There are many Judas priests ministries out there.


  If God gives you worldly wealth, make freinds for yourself

 in order that when these things perish,you will be warmly

welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven[Luke 16;9]

 

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 10:29:48 PMWe are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

DOESN'T YOUR BIBLE SAY THAT OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE?? THEN THEY ARE EMPHATICALLY NOT THE SAME BY ANY REMOTE STRETCH!!

Quote from: martincisneros on August 05, 2009, 10:36:08 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 10:29:48 PMWe are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

DOESN'T YOUR BIBLE SAY THAT OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE?? THEN THEY ARE EMPHATICALLY NOT THE SAME BY ANY REMOTE STRETCH!!

You are misapplying that scripture.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

That is sacrifice BY obedience, not sacrifices resulting from disobedience, as in the case of Saul. Unless you think that Jesus was disobedient to God by offering himself a sacrifice for our sakes and that we ought not walk in his footsteps....

I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

Quote from: sparrow on August 06, 2009, 04:36:37 AM
I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

All I can say to sparrows post is AMEN!  :cloud9:

Some very good, inspiring points made, Sister Sparrow.  God's blessings of peace, joy, and love to you!

Quote from: sparrow on August 06, 2009, 04:36:37 AM
I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.


There is no "balance" when it comes to these so-called propserity preachers.
Those who hold up the cross of Christ and slap a price tag on it like it is something to be sold.
For profit. THEIR profit. To me, it is just as bad as the false teaching of eternal torment.

What do they preach? Not that THE Almighty, but that the almighty DOLLAR is where your happiness and peace comes from.

This world is temporary..
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Treasures are not monetary.

What is their focus? MONEY. MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.
Oh yeah, sure they'll entertain you... read some stuff out of the bible, put on a show, make you laugh... then it's back to MONEY. MONEY. MONEY.

It's false. It's on the path of destruction.
Each and every one of their "ministries" (I use the term lightly) is on the PATH to destruction.
And that is exactly where it belongs.
On the path to destruction.

This too will teach us all something. False stuff also serves to teach. It will be a lesson for all.
It really will. So, in a sense, it is serving a purpose.

They will be humbled one day, these prosperity preachers... as we all will over our various things that need to be burned off of us. That is what comforts me, that they will have this greed burned off of them and their knees will buckle under the weight of His love and mercy. That all will learn something from this and cling that much closer to Him.

They manipulate starving people... with promises of food.
But the food they offer is ashes. Their food will burn up... and be ashes.


They preach "give!!! and you will receive (monetarily) a hundredfold!". Let me ask you... why?
Why? Where is the heart of Jesus in that? GIVE so that you can RECIEVE?
Where is the LOVE in that? Where is the selfLESSness in that? What are they teaching? MY GOD! MY GOD! Jesus told the man to sell everything that he had and follow him. The man could not let go of his wealth. They are cultivating selfishness, and greed, NOT the mind of Christ.

They sit there with their private jets, their lavish wardrobes, hands dripping diamonds, their multi-million dollar homes and their obscene wealth... while their followers barely getting by are sending them envelope after envelope of money. The blind leading the blind. These people...searching for something... and they are given empty promises from preachers preaching about a god who does not even exist. The magic dollar god.

We are not here on this earth to seek after GOLD and obscene wealth.  :msealed: We are here to follow Christ and become more and more like Him day by day. Dying to self a little more each day. Picking up our cross. Not picking up our rolex. To follow his example. To ride humbly on the back of a mule. Not come pridefully roaring up in a private jet flaunting wealth while so many are suffering and dying in poverty. We are to GIVE where needed. GIVE what we have.
We are to help the blind SEE. Not tell the blind that if they just give us some money, that sooner or later...woo hooo!! God's gonna give you a pair of diamond studded sunglasses and a new solid gold walking stick my friend!!  :mshock: We are to help them understand LOVE. The LOVE of Christ. To help them learn just how much God loves us... not by the promises of wealth.. :sigh: So when all is said and done... and they sit there with their bills piling up, and still struggling to make ends meet, what are they thinking? "God does not love me" "I must not have enough FAITH." "I should probably SOW more seeds... GIVE more to that ministry!"  :sigh: My God! The treausures that God promises are PEACE in the midst of adversity. His perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. I heard one preacher say "y'know some people ask me why I'm always talking and preaching about money and why don't I talk more about peace? and you know what I said to her,  I said you can't HAVE peace without MONEY!" and of course, his massive audience of followers roar with laughter... It's sad. It's sick and it's sad. Jesus' teachings are being trampled over by the love of money. The cross of Christ is being held up as a key to wealth.

We are here to LEARN. To learn about LOVE. And everything that goes with Love.
What LOVE means. God is love. We are here to learn about God. and His beautiful nature.

Blind leading the blind.

This world is not our home.
If someone has money, or someone has earned money, there is nothing inherently WRONG with that! There are MANY, many wealthy people who do so much good in the world. So many people have been helped. One example: Paul Newman. Another example, I used to work for a non-profit foundation who rehabbed abused animals. We would never have survived if it weren't for the donations of so many very wealthy people in town. There is nothing inherently wrong with money. But if someone is calling themselves a teacher of God's word and they are manipulating and basically pimping out the word of God, that is something else entirely. Holding up the cross of Christ in that way is an absolute abomination. It's worse than those that cast lots for Jesus' clothes.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

These preachers are blind.
And they are VERY skilled in their game.
One day they will see.
And God will wrap His arms around them and show them love and mercy and forgiveness.
Just like the rest of us.
And they too will bow before the King of Kings and cling to Him forever.

In the meantime, brothers and sisters...
do not make the mistake of following after their desperately misguided lead.
We need to have more sense than that.
We are to be lights in this world..
Not throw people into more darkness.

peace.

WOW!

You singed my eyebrows with that one! Good word and amen

 Selling Doves in the TEMPLE

  and making MY FATHER'S HOUSE as merchandise.


  Babylon did this alot..sold spiritual things to make herself

  wealthy...commiting adultery with the Kings of the earth


   We know how Jesus Christ felt about this...HE OVERTURNED

  the tables in the temple..made a whip and drove them out...

   such ones,doing such things.


  a House of PRAYER or mankinds communion with GOD..being

commercialized into a money-making buisiness by scoundrels


   When our Father gives us gifts of His Holy spirit[doves]

it is for our edification in faith..and for all the body...we

are to share it freely.

   This,too, with anything materially we may have.

   Regarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.


  Trampling the GRACE of GOD Rev 11;2  But exclude the outer

court; do not measure it for it has been given to the gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months.


  Daniel 8;9,10  out of one of them grew a horn that started

small but grew in power  to the south and to the east and unto

the BEAUTIFUL LAND.

It grew until it reached the HOST OF HEAVENS, AND IT THREW

SOME OF THE STARRY HOST DOWN TO THE EARTH,AND

TRAMPLED ON THEM, IT SET ITSELF UP TO BE AS GREAT AS THE

PRINCE OF THE HOST.IT TOOK AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE

FROM HIM,AND THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS BROUGHT

LOW

  That is just how critical this matter is for the saints..


   Sell for any such  worldly profit of yourself and you are

  spiritually dead!!  Can you be resurrected from such a spiritual

state? Yes, for Christ is Lord of the dead and living.


   Follow Christ's example in regard to the temptation in the

wilderness, though satan offer all the kingdoms of the earth for

one act of worship in this manner. Mark 8;36  What good is it

if a man should gain the whole world,yet forfeit his soul.


   Now we know,,that...THAT GENERATION  DIED in the

wilderness..and did NOT enter the promised land.


  Pay very close attention to the three temptations presented to

  Jesus Christ in the wilderness. The Kindoms of the whole

earth,being one. For these same things are being offered to

the Sons of God ,over and over.And many have failed to enter

in,because of it.

  Now, Numbers 21;8,9  The Lord said to Moses,'Make a snake,

  and put it on a pole, anyone who is bitten can look at it and

  live"  So Moses made a  bronze snake and put it on a pole,

    Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the

bronze snake,he lived.


   Luke 10;19   I HAVE GIVEN YOU AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE

  ON SNAKES AND SCORPIONS AND TO OVERCOME ALL THE

POWER OF THE ENEMY,NOTHING WILL HARM YOU. HOWEVER,

DO NOT REJOICE THAT THE SPIRITS SUBMIT TO YOU,

BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN



   " I praise you,Father, Lord of Heaven and earth,because you

have hidden these things from the wise and learned

and revealed them to little children"

Amen

2 Corinthians 11:7-9
Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.

Quote from: sparrow on August 06, 2009, 04:36:37 AM
I have to preface this by saying, I normally do NOT like to shine the light on these types of things. I prefer to shine light on the beauty/love of this world. However this is something that I feel very strongly about and it needs to be out in the open. It needs to be seen for what it is. It ain't pretty. But these people are my brothers and sisters. One day, this stuff will fall off of them. It's very sad that wealth and love of money has taken over their hearts. Because it is a futile road. Yet they cannot see it. And they are in positions of authority leading others right over that cliff. It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said.

It's taking the whole teachings of Christ and at best, concealing it and at worst making a mockery of it.

"A fire insurance premium for filling their pockets of greed."

Eloquently expressed!


peacemaker

Quote from: sheila on August 08, 2009, 05:41:51 PM
Selling Doves in the TEMPLE

  and making MY FATHER'S HOUSE as merchandise.


  Babylon did this alot..sold spiritual things to make herself

  wealthy...commiting adultery with the Kings of the earth


   We know how Jesus Christ felt about this...HE OVERTURNED

  the tables in the temple..made a whip and drove them out...

   such ones,doing such things.


  a House of PRAYER or mankinds communion with GOD..being

commercialized into a money-making buisiness by scoundrels


   When our Father gives us gifts of His Holy spirit[doves]

it is for our edification in faith..and for all the body...we

are to share it freely.

   This,too, with anything materially we may have.

   Regarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.


  Trampling the GRACE of GOD Rev 11;2  But exclude the outer

court; do not measure it for it has been given to the gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months.


  Daniel 8;9,10  out of one of them grew a horn that started

small but grew in power  to the south and to the east and unto

the BEAUTIFUL LAND.

It grew until it reached the HOST OF HEAVENS, AND IT THREW

SOME OF THE STARRY HOST DOWN TO THE EARTH,AND

TRAMPLED ON THEM, IT SET ITSELF UP TO BE AS GREAT AS THE

PRINCE OF THE HOST.IT TOOK AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE

FROM HIM,AND THE PLACE OF HIS SANCTUARY WAS BROUGHT

LOW

  That is just how critical this matter is for the saints..


   Sell for any such  worldly profit of yourself and you are

  spiritually dead!!  Can you be resurrected from such a spiritual

state? Yes, for Christ is Lord of the dead and living.


   Follow Christ's example in regard to the temptation in the

wilderness, though satan offer all the kingdoms of the earth for

one act of worship in this manner. Mark 8;36  What good is it

if a man should gain the whole world,yet forfeit his soul.


   Now we know,,that...THAT GENERATION  DIED in the

wilderness..and did NOT enter the promised land.


  Pay very close attention to the three temptations presented to

  Jesus Christ in the wilderness. The Kindoms of the whole

earth,being one. For these same things are being offered to

the Sons of God ,over and over.And many have failed to enter

in,because of it.

  Now, Numbers 21;8,9  The Lord said to Moses,'Make a snake,

  and put it on a pole, anyone who is bitten can look at it and

  live"  So Moses made a  bronze snake and put it on a pole,

    Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the

bronze snake,he lived.


   Luke 10;19   I HAVE GIVEN YOU AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE

  ON SNAKES AND SCORPIONS AND TO OVERCOME ALL THE

POWER OF THE ENEMY,NOTHING WILL HARM YOU. HOWEVER,

DO NOT REJOICE THAT THE SPIRITS SUBMIT TO YOU,

BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN



   " I praise you,Father, Lord of Heaven and earth,because you

have hidden these things from the wise and learned

and revealed them to little children"

:cloud9: AMEN....... :thumbsup: Failure to see this principle is as PROSTITUTING the gifts, as a temple prostitute. Blessings....

Cardinal, I think I'm not understanding you, possibly. Do you agree with my post as well?

 :cloud9: I agree with the principals shown. What I can't do is select one group to apply them to, when those same principals apply to all our hearts in one way or another, as all sin is common to man(kind).

And also, as I said in my previous post, God is not offended by great wealth; just the heart that worships it over Him. Blessings....

Quotewe are to share it freely.

Exactly.

Oddly enough, the young people today seem to understand this principle.  They share everything--ideas, music, --like one big mind.  It just seems to come naturally to them. 

But, wait--it drives the old foggies crazy--hey, there is a copywrite on that idea, that tune! lol

When stopped, they just find another way to share it

If I share a song with you, for instance, we both have the whole song, and neither one of us is diminished by it--a principle of God.  It's only a matter of time before this principle is extended to things material--and that will be the end of money.


1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 09, 2009, 07:03:17 PM
:cloud9: I agree with the principals shown. What I can't do is select one group to apply them to, when those same principals apply to all our hearts in one way or another, as all sin is common to man(kind).

And also, as I said in my previous post, God is not offended by great wealth; just the heart that worships it over Him. Blessings....

I agree, those same principals apply to all our hearts in on way or another...that's why I prefaced it by saying  "It's difficult to ever point an accusing finger at someone else, because instantly I see the plank in my own eye. I see where I need to do more and give more and become MORE like Christ. But, it still needs to be said."

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is do you agree with the basic premise of the word of faith movement? I just like to know other's beliefs. It helps me when reading their posts to understand their perspective a little better. Or is word of faith too broad of a term? I'm not sure.

 :cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 10, 2009, 12:37:00 AM
:cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

sort of, not really... :laughing7:

You "believe the word of faith".. what does that mean?

Quote from: sheila on August 08, 2009, 05:41:51 PMRegarding Ananais and Sapphira..sinning against the Holy

  spirit...they were harmed of the secound death..for they were

already spiritually DEAD when they lied to the Holy spirit.

Actually, Ananias and Sapphira were DELIVERED.  Remember when Jesus cast a demon out of a young boy and everybody thought Jesus killed the kid??  Same exact scenario here!!  I've had that happen in my ministry beaucoup times!!  They fell under the power of God and were taken out and water baptized.  Their hypocrisy was exposed and the spirit driving their flesh to do it was cast out.  I've had more than my fair share of folks fall dead in front of me, and it's always the same exact ends when the Word of the Lord comes to me and exposes a liar -- ultimate deliverance, and water baptism according to Romans and 1Peter -- not the putting off of the flesh in death, but the answering of a good conscience to God as they're formally washed in front of everyone by water typifying the Blood of Jesus Christ. 

St. Paul talks about speaking in other tongues and receiving the interpretation by faith and as you're laying hold of the mysteries of God thru edification of yourself, in 1Corinthians 14, then the sinner falls on their knees acknowledging that God is truly among you -- either immediately, or after they're knocked on their rear by God as something is departing from them.  Carry 'em out, dump 'em in water, and they're let back into the Church as is the case with the person that was living in filth in 1Corinthians that was accepted back into the Church in 2Corinthians lest they should be overtaken in worldly sorrow, i.e. they were water baptized!  That was their version of "sinner's prayer" and "prayer of rededication" and simply signified a parting with the world and inheriting the glory in Christ that they had before the world was, with Him. (Romans 6:4)

Quote from: sparrow on August 10, 2009, 01:32:12 AMYou "believe the word of faith".. what does that mean?

It's the perspective and Biblical discipleship disciplines some ministries and Churches hold to with regards to walking by faith and not by sight until every single need in this life is met and every body is healed, every demon is cast out, and every soul is saved.  There is no greater message on the planet.  It's simply needing an official public divorce from ET and "left behind" NONSENSE, since logically UR and the triumphant view of the Church in world history that some theologians would call "Postmillenialism" is the most Biblically consistent complements/condiments and necessary perspectives with regards to the future of a world inhabited by people who speak as Jesus speaks and do what Jesus does, and receive greater results than He ever did per John 14:12 and countless other Scriptures to that very effect! 

I'll publicly say it here, I am not a Universalist.  I am a Word of Faith preacher 'cause to me UR isn't THE MESSAGE, but is a necessary foundational truth for going forth to raise the dead, figuratively and literally, cast out the devil in His Name, literally and figuratively, and to heal every body and receive our Garden of Eden back NOW IN THIS TIME, AND IN THE WORLD TO COME EONIAN LIFE -- THOUGH OF COURSE WITH PERSECUTIONS 'CAUSE MANY FOLKS INCLUDING SOME AMONG US AIN'T GOING TO LIKE IT, HOWEVER....

WE'RE TO COUNT IT ALL JOY, KNOWING THAT THE TRYING OF OUR FAITH WORKETH PATIENCE, AND THEREBY WE'RE TO LET PATIENCE HAVE HER PERFECT WORK SO THAT WE'LL BE PERFECT AND ENTIRE AND WANTING NOTHING, BECAUSE THE LORD IS OUR SHEPHERD AND GOODNESS AND MERCY FOLLOW US ALL OF THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES!!!

We're taking this world over, in His Name; all judgment is committed to the saints over the world, the saints, the angels, the animals, and life elsewhere because AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD :bgdance:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 10, 2009, 06:00:13 AM
I'll publicly say it here, I am not a Universalist.  I am a Word of Faith preacher 'cause to me UR isn't THE MESSAGE, but is a necessary foundational truth for going forth to raise the dead, figuratively and literally, cast out the devil in His Name, literally and figuratively, and to heal every body and receive our Garden of Eden back NOW IN THIS TIME, AND IN THE WORLD TO COME EONIAN LIFE -- THOUGH OF COURSE WITH PERSECUTIONS 'CAUSE MANY FOLKS INCLUDING SOME AMONG US AIN'T GOING TO LIKE IT, HOWEVER....

:cloud9: Neither am I, Martin.........interesting point about Ananais and Sapphira I never considered before. Blessings....

 :laughing7: Ok you two. I'm getting more confused.  :laughing7:


Do you guys mean that the teaching of "reconciliation of all mankind" just isn't your main focus, then right? Meaning, you believe that all mankind will be reconciled back to God, but that that truth is just a basic truth, but not the main message?

Or are you saying that you don't believe that the reconciliation of all mankind is truth?

thanks guys..

I first noticed that about Ananias and Sapphira in my NASB, and my mouth fell open when hearing someone preach the traditional view of that.  When I got home, I went for my KJV that I had at the time, thinking I'd suddenly gotten my hands on a trick Bible, but reread it after rereading what I said about it above.  It's not there that anybody died over the ministry of righteousness/reconciliation that St. Paul says is emphatically different from the Mosaic ministry of damnation!

Sorry Sparrow, don't mean to interrupt.  I'll say this quickly, get out, and let Martin and Card respond regarding the UR thing.  (Personally, I am a believer, a Christian that believes in the ultimate reconciliation of all - the Victorious Gospel"...that's my title  :laughing7:.)

Quote from: Cardinal on August 10, 2009, 12:37:00 AM
:cloud9: I believe the word of faith but not necessarily as those who preach it to suit themselves. I believe whatever He speaks to me to believe for, but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness, knowing then that ALL the things they are seeking for will be added unto me ANYWAY. Make sense? Blessings....

Amen Card.  I really like your statement "but don't go looking for anything but His righteousness"...I believe that's the key, along with "THY kingdom come THY will be done".  I don't believe we can manipulate God by simply "naming it and claiming it", especially to heap things upon our own lust/lusts of the flesh.  I really think that may be where some of the "Word of Faith" camp has lost much respect, why so many see them in such a negative light.  For example, please don't try to con me into giving your "ministry" $1000 "and I'll send you this one of a kind gold eagle statue", and such similar things that are going on.

If God provides to an honest, wholesome, holy endeavor, IMO that's one thing...HIS blessing, HIS will, and even perhaps part of HIS process of establishing His government upon the earth.  But if it's just a con man conning, makes little difference to me if they have a cross over their door or CEO on their desk plate.  

Has anyone heard Mike Murdocks word of faith?
Everywhere he goes people are giving him expensive clothes watches cars and cash.
That is his message, I watch him in awe wondering why he maniupalates people, when he says it pains him to give.  :dontknow:

Quote from: sparrow on August 10, 2009, 06:26:19 AMDo you guys mean that the teaching of "reconciliation of all mankind" just isn't your main focus, then right? Meaning, you believe that all mankind will be reconciled back to God, but that that truth is just a basic truth, but not the main message?

It's absolutely true, but God wants every single need met besides 'cause those that don't care for their own are worse than infidels, and God's no infidel and the Gospel justifies God as much as it justifies man: if not quite a bit more in the justification of all of God's ways that it offers.  And any preaching that doesn't justify God to absolutely all of man's needs isn't the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.  People want to stop at eschatology and say "all's well that ends well," but not many folks are all of that interested in the future until you've shown them how to get their bodies healed in the atonement, and how to pay these debts off and feed their children, even if it takes multiplication of the bread thru the Christ that's within them that's the hope of their children until they're of full age, discerning the difference between good and evil for themselves! 

The whole Kingdom is as if a man should plant a seed, and as he goes about his duties, then it grows up and becomes greater so that the birds of the air can rest in it's branches.  Mark 4:13 says that Mark 4 is the Kingdom.  So that, and lots of other Scriptures would verify and corroborate, the meeting of all of man's needs in their anointing, spirit, soul, body, finances, social life, ministries, etc. is the Kingdom of God.  Yes, it's very important to understand and know the totality of the Heart we came from and the Heart we're returning to, but that's not buscuits on the table, healing for folks in hospitals, and widows and orphans receiving their dead restored to them -- which is a part of the provisions of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it's about time that every single need gets cast out, so that our gratitude knows absolutely no end and the supremacy of Jesus Christ is abundantly proven above all of the religions, philosophies, and governmental systems of the earth! 

For every false idea put forth by the government, there is a plan in the Kingdom of God to meet the same needs that doesn't involve debt, shell games, situational ethics, etc.  The plan of God is a massive Exodus in our generation from debt to Pharoah since Scripture says service to God and mammon is IMPOSSIBLE and the borrower is the SERVANT/SLAVE of the lender.  Hearing and obeying Him each step along the way regarding one's own Jubilee is very very important, whether that's with regards to debts, one's own body, one's own mind in conformity with His mind, etc.  James says in the New Testament that without the meeting of man's practical needs, our faith and love are abundantly worthless, and God doesn't expect us going without a thing to that purpose, according to St. Paul's interpretation of God's grace as New Covenant manna in 2Corinthians 9.  The grace of God is the practical side of Love.

UR's the absolute truth when it comes to the Heart we all proceeded from and will all ultimately return into, regardless of the Hells we encounter along the way and have more than our fair shares of in learning obedience by the things we suffer as we're standing on His Written Word by faith and being to the world everything that Jesus is.  However, it's neither the total emphasis of Scripture, nor the primary emphasis of Scripture, otherwise, we'd not have sooo much confusion about it in the Body of Christ universally.  There's only a little over 700 verses about the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures.  Here's some reasons I've collected from Winchester's Dialogues (from the 1700s) on Why to, and Why not to preach UR, that are much more eloquent to what I'm trying to say than I could ever be:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2753.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2753.0)

Quote from: SQ on August 10, 2009, 06:53:32 AM
Has anyone heard Mike Murdocks word of faith?
Everywhere he goes people are giving him expensive clothes watches cars and cash.
That is his message, I watch him in awe wondering why he maniupalates people, when he says it pains him to give.  :dontknow:

You're looking at the fruit of someone that's walked in this for perhaps 50 years.  Big difference between him and someone that's within their first decade of having the Written Word of God as first priority and final authority in absolutely every area of life!  Big difference in being further down the road with prunings so that he's able to bring forth much, much, much more fruit, etc.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 Martin;

  I am in total agreement in regard to Annanis and Sapphira.

  You could say the man of sin was destroyed and the son and

  daughter of God delivered from that lying spirit.

                                  Sheila

  well, I had never even heard about the 'word of faith'..I just

follow the spirit.  But I will share an expierance I had.

   I lived on a 16 acre farm..and was in bondage in Babylon

religion. When He pulled me out of that situation,I went to a

160 acre farm and had a lot of money.And received great

spiritual wealth along with it

Of which I dispatched as the need occurred[and there was

need!!]At that place I

expierenced the most extreme persecution I ever had.


  Finally,I was delivered from there also..and currently dwell

East of Eastside Park. My finacial situation is 'tight' but

I am dwelling in great peace and all my needs are met.

  It was after I expeierenced these things that I read about

them in the scriptures,100 fold..and realized that this is what

had happened to me.

   I was shown a vision of my face that turned into a white

horse with wings and flew from the 100 fold and great

persecution situation....this is the woman  taken to the place

prepared away from the face of the serpent. Currently I dwell on

East'edge ,of EASTSIDE PARK.

   He  has worked with me in this manner. I actually almost

literally drowned in floodwaters[ and realized the scriptures in

Rev regarding it[woman dragonflood] had happened to me.

   It is like He has made my life a sign or symbol of what He is

doing with His church.Literally and spiritually


   I am in a 'waiting' on the Lord, Park expierence at present.

and this is my situation spiritually speaking,'You who dwell in

the garden with freinds in attendance,LET ME HEAR YOUR

  VOICE"

   Now, I know He is dealing with the body of beleivers as He is

dealing with me. For I see myself and my life as a living symbol


  Isaaih 8;18  Here am I, and the children the Lord has given

me.We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty,

who dwells in Zion.

   He teaches us all in different ways, and this is how He

  teaches me. I rarely know what is coming up..it is only after He

brings me through a lot of things that I realize He fulfilled it in

  me,then the Holy spirit quickens the scriptures and I

  understand what has taken place


  I know individually He is doing His work of deliverance

   in all of us and we each expierance a unique spiritual journey,

  but we will and do have many expierences in common.

                 Sheila

Psalm 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

 :cloud9: AMEN Sheila......I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. He has done the same kinds of things with me, and only shown me afterwards a lot of times, what exactly He did and why. He told me one of the reasons is so our carnal mind can't corrupt the Word/breath that came by adding to or taking away from. Of a fact, the body must do what it sees it's Head do.

And to Sparrow; yes, that is what I mean. Universalism is a truth contained in THE TRUTH, and I refuse to build an altar to it, as has been done by men with every perceived truth before it. Blessings....

 in regard to the 100 fold.Remember to whom much is given

much is required. And our Lord who was rich made Himself poor

for our sakes. When you are in the 100 fold make freinds for

yourself by means of the unrighteous riches,in order that you

will be warmly welcomed when these things fail/end.


  Doing that you will have 'freinds' in attendance in the Garden.

  We are tested in the 100 fold..beware the enticement of

  Babylon who lived in shameless luxury/that spirit must be

totally done away with..we must flee from it.


   You will pour out everything in the 100 fold and be emptied

like a drink offering ;and what He gave you will be given back/

poured out. Just as your Lord was poured out.


   Be joyful in that He has blessed you with things to give

  [for it is more blessed to give]


                              Sheila

Is the focus on God's love?

Is this "fruit" earthly riches, fleeting... temporary earthly treasures... money...?

or is the fruit, the love that God grows in a person's heart? Is the "seed" a monetary offering to a ministry adorned with dollar signs and private jets?

Or is the "seed' God's love planted in our heart? So that as it grows it produces compassion, joy, love, patience, gentleness, kindness, long-suffering towards our neighbor?

LOVE is the true treasure.
GOD is LOVE.
and His love isn't for sale for a $58 "seed" offering.

Peace.

well,Sparrow,very good point...

   cause I tell you, if LOVE FOR OTHERS IS NOT IN YOUR HEART

  THOSE VERY RICHES WILL BECOME A TRAP AND SNARE FOR

   YOU.

      Sheila

Quote from: sparrow on August 10, 2009, 08:09:23 PM
Is the focus on God's love?

Is this "fruit" earthly riches, fleeting... temporary earthly treasures... money...?

or is the fruit, the love that God grows in a person's heart? Is the "seed" a monetary offering to a ministry adorned with dollar signs and private jets?

Or is the "seed' God's love planted in our heart? So that as it grows it produces compassion, joy, love, patience, gentleness, kindness, long-suffering towards our neighbor?

LOVE is the true treasure.
GOD is LOVE.
and His love isn't for sale for a $58 "seed" offering.

Peace.

Speak on it sister!

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: SparrowIs this "fruit" earthly riches, fleeting... temporary earthly treasures... money...?

We see Jesus offered the kingdoms of the world if he would only bow down and worship satan.  That must mean that satan was in possession of said kingdoms.  Jesus didn't tell satan those were not his kingdoms to give.  He told him to worship, and only worship, God.

The fact that most who pursue money and power and wealth end up worshipping satan does not mean that such is inevitable.  Don't forget that our Lord has come to give us abundant life.  In God's economy that means riches beyond measure.  We see God's economy at work in the garden.  Plant a few zucchini plants and reap enough squash to feed the whole neighborhood.  Stop picking it because you are satiated, and one squash will grow big enough to feed a family of ten.



John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

"abundantly"

G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].

Quote from: Molly on August 10, 2009, 09:10:44 PM

Quote from: SparrowIs this "fruit" earthly riches, fleeting... temporary earthly treasures... money...?

We see Jesus offered the kingdoms of the world if he would only bow down and worship satan.  That must mean that satan was in possession of said kingdoms.  Jesus didn't tell satan those were not his kingdoms to give.  He told him to worship, and only worship, God.

The fact that most who pursue money and power and wealth end up worshipping satan does not mean that such is inevitable.  Don't forget that our Lord has come to give us abundant life.  In God's economy that means riches beyond measure.  We see God's economy at work in the garden.  Plant a few zucchini plants and reap enough squash to feed the whole neighborhood.  Stop picking it because you are satiated, and one squash will grow big enough to feed a family of ten.



John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

"abundantly"

G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].

Molly,

Yes to have LIFE more abundantly.
Not riches. Not money.

There is no peace in the pursuit of temporary worldly things like money, power and wealth. The only peace is in God.

Money does not bring peace.
And to try to find peace by searching for it in the riches of this world is a lesson in futility.

Like I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with HAVING money. Go back and read my earlier post about what I said of those with money.
But this holding it up like it is God is something else, entirely.
This holding it up like some GOAL!!
Holding it up like it is the whole point of GOD. Holding it up like it is something sacred.
Holding it up like it is what you need to FOCUS on. The luxuries of this temporary, fleeting world...  :sigh:

To change the whole message of Christ to one of "He is here to bring you abundant money!!" is to cast the REAL FRUIT into the shadows.

Why do people want to store up "treasures" that will rust and decay when Jesus is telling you to store up the treasures that DO NOT?? The TRUE treasures.

LOVE is the goal. Not riches.

By the way I DO think that God's love for ALL mankind IS the message.
God's LOVE.
This is the message.
From His LOVE come all the riches... and I'm not taking the "gold watch" kind of riches.



Well, I'm not sure what else to say that hasn't already been said. This discussion is a testament to the fact that you should never lean on man's understanding or what folks say God has told them personally, but to lean on God Himself. The peace that surpasses all understanding. No matter what anyone agrees with or disagrees with, HE will not lead you astray. He IS the Good Shepherd and WILL leave the 99 to find the one. Hallelujah for that. Because I know how many times I have been "the one". And I know I will be "the one" again in the future. How uplifting to know that there is NO-WHERE where we can go where we can ever possibly stray "too far". His arm always stretches further. No matter how far we do stray.

He is refining us all. This issue may divide us, but you are all still my brothers and sisters and nothing will ever change that. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Though it's a big issue, and definitely causes me to view posts through a different set of eyes now... we are STILL brothers and sisters. May He wrap His loving arms around us all, bring us to truth, and lovingly guide us ALL on our path. And may we all continue to learn from each other.

peace.

Yes, but, God's love doesn't mean much to people in the abstract.  What would it mean to a mother watching her child dying of hunger?  Or a man watching his wife suffering from a painful disease?

Jesus showed his love by feeding and healing people and he did it with abundance--feeding 4000 people from 7 loaves and a few fishes.  He showed them concretely the meaning of God's love in the street and on the cross.

The message may have been perverted by some, but it is abundance for all.

Do you think we couldn't achieve that today?  We could--easily.



1In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,

2I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:

3And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.

8So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.

--Mark 8

God's love and life cease to be abstract when faith comes. Saying that God's life is not material, does not make it abstract.

It isn't that God will not give material help is not the point. The point is where the SEEKING is. Is the SEEKING in material? Or is the seeking in the Spirit, which is what the kingdom is: peace and joy in the Spirit. Seek that, and ALL things will be ADDED to it. But when someone seeks the material FIRST, is where it gets perverted.

Case in point, yes Jesus fed the multitudes with physical fish and bread. He healed their physical eyes. He healed their physical sores.

But where were they when he was on the cross? Where were the multitudes who praised Jesus as he entered Jerusalem on a donkey? What happened to their faith?

If we seek material, we will get material, and it does no good when faith is tested, when material is taken away. Even drug cartel's have no problem making money. But one who seeks the Spirit, it won't matter if he has material or loses it, because that isn't what he primarily seeks.

The problem I have with the orthodox teaching of Word of Faith is in how they make you doubt your own faith when you don't receive the goods. It is never suggested to them that their faith should not be questioned but strengthened in any adverse experience. Rather, it's your faith on trial every Sunday. It makes me sick. I know this from life experience. I see some family members struggling under it.

QuoteThe problem I have with the orthodox teaching of Word of Faith is in how they make you doubt your own faith when you don't receive the goods. It is never suggested to them that their faith should not be questioned but strengthened in any adverse experience. Rather, it's your faith on trial every Sunday. It makes me sick. I know this from life experience. I see some family members struggling under it.

That's because they are focusing on themselves rather than others--focusing on the self.

Somebody please tell me why Bill Gates needs billions of dollars...when half the world is starving to death...

God's economy:  One zucchini plant feeds the neighborhood

Satan's economy--Throw away 90 percent of the produce and give 9 percent to the top 1 percent and 1 percent to the bottom 90 percent.  The rest starve.