Money and The Gospel-(Split From Another Topic)

[WhiteWings]

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

[jabcat]

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

:goodpost:    Good balance.  I'm glad you mentioned the books for sale at the Tent, and put it in such good perspective.  I thought about it but didn't want to be the one to bring it up  :laughing7:.

[sparrow]

:cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

I could not disagree more.

I have a lot to say to this...
but don't have the time.
wil come back later tonight.
peace.

[jabcat]

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

Good points.  IMO, it's not necessarily the wealth, but more how it's obtained...which would indicate the condition of the heart, I would think.  I keep saying charlatans, fleecing, abusing the flock; also that one needs to use discernment and good judgment.  

Just a thought though...wonder if the rich OT guys were "business men", i.e., managed crops, herds, etc., (made an "honest living" with God's blessing upon them) or made appeals to old ladies on TV for them to "sow faith seeds" into their ministries, or that those attending the conference should contribute to the point of going hungry that night, while the "minister" and her husband stayed in a thousand dollar per night hotel that night after the program?   :Chinscratch:

[Seth]

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

[Seth]

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

Good points.  IMO, it's not necessarily the wealth, but more how it's obtained...which would indicate the condition of the heart, I would think.  I keep saying charlatans, fleecing, abusing the flock; also that one needs to use discernment and good judgment.  

Just a thought though...wonder if the rich OT guys were "business men", i.e., managed crops, herds, etc., (made an "honest living" with God's blessing upon them) or made appeals to old ladies on TV for them to "sow faith seeds" into their ministries, or that those attending the conference should contribute to the point of going hungry that night, while the "minister" and her husband stayed in a thousand dollar per night hotel that night after the program?   :Chinscratch:

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

[Molly]

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

I see what you mean. I don't disagree. But all people have to eat and pay bills; so some income is required.
Many have a daytime job and in the evenings do good work with for example a Bible related website.
Those people can cover their costs with their salary. But what about people that are busy with 'the Word' full time?
Gary for example. I see no harm in Gary selling books. Especially not because he offers also a lot of free materials.
Maybe that's the ideal setup. Sell paper versions for a little profit and free downloads for electronic versions.
Personally I'm very fond of electronic versions. I have 2 Bibles both in print and electronicly. I would like to add the Concordant to that. Unfortunately no electronic version.
I really admire people who are doing so much for free. Much better than my greed. And I don't even spend half of what I earn...
So Seth, I can agree with you for a large part.....

But why not just give everything freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

The very concept of money has the idea of scarcity built into it.  One has money, one doesn't.  One is rich, one is poor.  Some systems make everyone equally poor except the leaders (communism/socialism).  Some systems make some very poor and some very rich--haves and have nots.   But there is never an equality and always scarcity.  The scarcer and/or more desirable something is, the more it costs.

This is not God's economy.  This is satan's economy.  God's economy is based on abundance.  Therefore, God's economy is not and will not be based on an exchange of money.  

Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

[martincisneros]

:cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

Oh yeah!  Those guys in the Old and New Testaments were billionaires and beyond.  There is absolutely no godliness that's not Psalm 1, Psalm 23, and Psalm 112 godliness 'cause wickedness in this world has thrown down the gauntlet with money.  Righteousness in the Bible is one of those things like Peace in the Bible (get your Strong's Concordance!!) where it means $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You may not find Strong's conclusive on that, but you'll see enough to make you get really deep into the lexicons about it 'cause it'll minimally be deeply interesting and worth a closer look in whatever's been your growing collection of microscopes for the Bible so far.  There's a lot of other words in the Bible just like that that are used around here 250 times a day [in hundreds of unrelated contexts] that if each of us were as thorough as we should be, we'd pick up a Bible after our research into each of those vocabulary words and start giggling that this Bible's promising us the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and had to have been written by Leprechauns 'cause it's a darn treasure map and it's saying "obey this to find....."! :laughing7:

Just because Catholicism and other religious systems abused it, doesn't mean there wasn't some godly foundation that they were trying to counterfeit, in some ways by both sincerity and naivete about how God's Kingdom functions, and lots of us are aware of crooks along the way as well -- though it's not our job to calculate which were which 'cause then God's Anointing starts resisting us, if we're judging by outwards appearances rather than making the righteous judgments that Jesus said in the Gospel of John that we better be making!  Some of the biggest, biggest, biggest harvests I've ever gotten of the Deuteronomy 1:11 thousand-fold and beyond, per our having a better covenant established upon better promises, has been from actually sowing into mega ministries BECAUSE they'd already gone thru their seasons of pruning so that they could bring forth MUCH MORE FRUIT.

So to say that seasons of pruning aren't so you'll bring forth MUCH MORE FRUIT is to totally callously MOCK GOD!!  Godliness WITH CONTENTMENT is GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GAIN :Sparkletooth:

I haven't said too much about it to the woman I'm marrying, but the Holy Spirit spoke up a while back and said we're going to be QUADRILLIONAIRES :bgdance:

That's up to Him, though.  The Biblical balance is to be, as someone coined the phrase years ago "GOD CHASERS" per Joshua 1:8, Psalm 119, Luke 6:40, John 15:7, Colossians 3:12-17, et. al.  The timing [and the "how"] ain't none of our business!!  I've already been giving again over the last few days as though everything He's ever told me were 100% true, and my fanaticism about that would be genuinely scary to anyone in the natural with my income level right now if they hadn't done all that was within them since midnight, January 1, 1990 to walk in the New Covenant as first priority and final authority in absolutely all things!  When a guy's as serious as I am about the love of his life and possessing his bride by year's end, then natural reasoning would dictate hoarding like a pack rat if one's bank statement weren't still being brought captive to the obedience of Christ.  But He told me earlier this year, when I was choking on that, that when He asked me if I'd like to marry her by year's end, He didn't look at my bank account before asking me!

Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness -- which in my case, has had the unusual aspect of Proverbs and Song of Solomon regarding the coronation of the king with the crown of his bride that's come to the time period appointed by the Father in Galatians 4 -- and all of these things, i.e. the material necessities of life, per Matthew 6, are being added to me.  For other folks, seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness may translate from the Holy Spirit thru the Scriptures into an entirely different meditation, willingness, obedience and rejoicing with gladness and joyfulness of heart project that He expects of their thanksgiving and follow thru.  Colossians 3:12-17 has to be and become the unfolding manifold laws of absolute oppulent abundance for each and every single one of us, regardless of where He decides to take that in 15 to 20 years from the moment one's signed up for His service!  How that baptism with the Holy Spirit is worked out in each of our lives is going to be different for each of us.  I'd fasted nearly 80 days when the Holy Spirit spoke and said that myself and my betrothed had dreamed of each other for a little over 31 years 'cause my very very first prayer at 2 years old was for my wife, and He said I was heard from the first day that I prayed.  My knees are knocking over Jeremiah 33:9 'cause I'm totally transfigured now with that revelation to me from Him!

I think a lot of people get their feelings hurt over this subject of Kingdom Oppulence 'cause they think, unconsciously, that it's being stated or implied that it relates to their value or wholeness.  This is something related to Sonship, per Galatians chapters 4 and 6, all of Ephesians and Hebrews, and the strength of the Lord per 2Corinthians 9 and countless, countless other passages.  Equipped for the mission isn't the same thing as the Lord's love for you.  However this is the number one area that everyone at least once in their lives questions how much He loves them over, and if that day's not come to anyone yet that's on these boards, you're in for quite the surprise if the economy ever does worse to you and you listen to what comes out of your mouth to Him!  It doesn't bring you your value or wholeness, but it definitely can create your brokenness when you see needs you're "powerless" to do anything about, and are in the book of James living of telling multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision to go, be blessed, warmed, and filled, while you do only minimally for them when 2Corinthians 9, Paul's writings to Timothy, and other passages speak of being thoroughly equipped; thoroughly furnished for EVERY GOOD WORK.

YOU WILL NOT FULFILL WHAT YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE TO HIM FOR WITHOUT $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Plain and simple, and I'd dare attach your "well done, you good and faithful servant" to ANYBODY'S CALLING AROUND HERE based on that.  That alone won't bring about all of His purposes in your life and I'm neither stating nor implying THAT, but think thru every detail of what's honestly on your heart to present to Him, and be real for a minute, and tell me you're selfish enough to do nothing extravagent for Him even once, as the woman that poured the Spikenard on Him.  Likely no one here is that selfish, but perhaps there might be someone here either now or eventually that'll have it dawn on them that they'd simply never thought thru their love for Him before PRACTICALLY.

[WhiteWings]

But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

First of all because I have no real trust in that. Yeah I'm bad...but that's how I feel.
If God provides.....well I withdraw all my concerns.
I'm just not at that point yet  :mshock:

[Seth]

But why not just give the gospel teaching away freely and trust God to take care of the bills? Why worry about money when Jesus says to give freely and NOT worry about it? If Jesus says that as the sparrows are cared for, so will you be, why not just trust that and give freely as you are given freely to?

First of all because I have no real trust in that. Yeah I'm bad...but that's how I feel.
If God provides.....well I withdraw all my concerns.
I'm just not at that point yet  :mshock:

Take this as encouragement. We all have to grow to a place of trust. I am still growing into it myself. Christ's words are radical and demand a supernatural change in us to trust them fully.
:HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.
That's what I mean by balance. Free is good. Greed is bad. Little teaching is fine. Full time teaching is great.
And no I'm not trying to say only the rich can hear the Word.

[Seth]

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

[WhiteWings]

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

We are running in circles now. :laughing7:
The only reason I say let some people pay is that Paul can preach more.
Say he had to make tents 5 hours a day to provide his living. If some rich man had given him a pot of gold he could have preached 5 hours a day more. That's and stop starving are the only reason I speak about making money. Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I think we have to agree to disagree. Peace Seth. :wink:

[martincisneros]

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

Don't know which Bible you've been reading, but there's not a thing in it from cover to cover that says the Gospel is even remotely free BY ANY STRETCH OF YOUR IMAGINATION.  It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have, and those that remain truthful, loving, and joyful to the end will experience ABSOLUTELY ALL HE HAS TO OFFER, IN THIS LIFE AND IN THE WORLD TO COME, INCLUDING THE HUNDREDFOLD+ FOR BOTH, PLUS PERSECUTIONS :Sparkletooth:

[Seth]

Here is the difference in the blue quote versus what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with making a living. In fact, How did PAUL the apostle make his living, by placing a price tag on his teaching? Nope. HE MADE TENTS!!!!!

But if he would have charged for example the wealthy he could have lived of that and the hours wasted on tents he could spend on teaching the Word.

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

We are running in circles now. :laughing7:
The only reason I say let some people pay is that Paul can preach more.
Say he had to make tents 5 hours a day to provide his living. If some rich man had given him a pot of gold he could have preached 5 hours a day more. That's and stop starving are the only reason I speak about making money. Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I think we have to agree to disagree. Peace Seth. :wink:

WW, I think we are talking about different things.

1) If a rich man gives money FREELY to Paul so he doesn't have to make tents

that is different than...

2) If Paul requires the rich man to pay before he can receive what Paul was able to provide.

To me the difference is utterly clear. So I am still not even sure if we disagree on that, which means we wouldn't even need to agree to disagree.  

:dontknow:

[martincisneros]

Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I like my fourth private yet! :bgdance:

[Seth]

Why should the wealthy pay for what is free? Jesus died freely for everyone and he declares his gift to be free for everyone. The exceptions to that are our own.

Don't know which Bible you've been reading, but there's not a thing in it from cover to cover that says the Gospel is even remotely free BY ANY STRETCH OF YOUR IMAGINATION.  It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have, and those that remain truthful, loving, and joyful to the end will experience ABSOLUTELY ALL HE HAS TO OFFER, IN THIS LIFE AND IN THE WORLD TO COME, INCLUDING THE HUNDREDFOLD+ FOR BOTH, PLUS PERSECUTIONS :Sparkletooth:

Martin you are not applying my words as to their intent. You are applying a DIFFERENT concept to my words. I am talking about MONEY. God does not require us to PAY BEFORE RECIEVING HIS FREE GIFT. Hello?

He requires us to sacrifice everything to GIVE IT FREELY TO OTHERS.

That sacrifice will be repayed BY GOD to us, not by making other people pay. So please bro, save the "I don't know what Bible you are reading" nonsense for someone else.


:sigh:

[WhiteWings]

Not for buying your 4th private jet.

But I like my fourth private yet! :bgdance:

Is the vapor of the chilli peper comming out of your ears Martin? :fool:
Or perhaps even that "Madam Janet" stuff  :flamebreath: :flamebreath:
I heard you can't even fly a paper plane.... :declare:

[martincisneros]

So Seth, a person is required to go to war at their own expense?  And the ox that treads the grain is to be muzzled?

[martincisneros]

I heard you can't even fly a paper plane.... :declare:

Actually, I was about to head to the airport, but my flight just got canceled.

[Seth]

So Seth, a person is required to go to war at their own expense?  And the ox that treads the grain is to be muzzled?

Oh my goodness Martin, you are not paying attention to what I have said.

[martincisneros]

No Seth, we're not required to sacrifice.  We're redeemed from sacrifice, and sacrifice right now is offering up strange fire.  Obedience to Him is what matters, moment by moment adhering to that Proceeding Word.

[Seth]

No Seth, we're not required to sacrifice.  We're redeemed from sacrifice, and sacrifice right now is offering up strange fire.  Obedience to Him is what matters, moment by moment adhering to that Proceeding Word.

We are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

[sheila]

   Paul spoke of himself as if one born out of season. He was a

  true Benjamite[youngest tribe]

 Jesus instructed His disciples to do different things at

 different times. Take no purse, take a purse....I think these

 things depended on the climate of the times.


  Now, here we are...christendom has the gospel in ill repute

due to greedy charlatans and hirelings..that feed themselves..

 and many ministries are nothing less than get rich quick

  family buisiness's .

  Each of us must give account to God...and no-one else...


  He says..if we aren't trust-worthy with worldly wealth..

 who will give us our own true treasures?.


 Look what Judas missed out on..lining his pocket with worldly

 wealth. Sure...he ended up giving the money back to the

 church!


  The potter's field was bought to bury the poor.!![let the dead

 bury the dead]


 Now, there was a woman with an alabaster cask of oil[a years

 worth wages] She poured it on Christ.In preparation for His

 burial.And a rich man gave the tomb for Jesus to lie in.


  I have met people who have wealth..but are not lovers of

 money. And I have met people who are poor and destitute

 who do love money.

  I have seen someone steal who was not in any need,but in

fact had an abundance. I have seen some-one in need that

refused to take,and did without in their need.


  Jesus said,in regard to Paul, 'I will show him what he must

suffer for my name's sake" 2 Cor 11;27


  2Cor11;7  Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to

elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you,free of

charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from

them,so as to serve you.......please read...


 v12  And I WILL KEEP ON DOING WHAT I AM DOING

 IN ORDER TO CUT THE GROUND FROM UNDER THOSE WHO

WANT AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE CONSIDERED EQUAL WITH US

IN THE THINGS MEN BOAST ABOUT.


  FOR SUCH MEN ARE DECEITFUL WORKMEN,MASQUERADING AS

 APOSTLES OF CHRIST. AND NO WONDER,FOR SATAN HIMSELF

 MASQUERADES AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT





There are many Judas priests ministries out there.


  If God gives you worldly wealth, make freinds for yourself

 in order that when these things perish,you will be warmly

welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven[Luke 16;9]

 

[martincisneros]

We are not required to sacrifice? Check Romans 6 bro. You ARE to be sacrificed, that is your flesh. And if your flesh demands money for what God gives freely, THAT is also to be sacrificed as you pick up your cross and follow him. Obedience to him is in sacrificing your SELF.

You say: " It promises absolutely all of us that it'll cost us absolutely everything we have"

Then you say "we are not required to sacrifice?"

You are talking circles around your own point.

DOESN'T YOUR BIBLE SAY THAT OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE?? THEN THEY ARE EMPHATICALLY NOT THE SAME BY ANY REMOTE STRETCH!!