Money and The Gospel-(Split From Another Topic)

[Seth]

Context, please.  Are you putting out copies of scripture on a large scale, Seth?  If people are peddling things to get rich and take advantage, IMO, that's one thing and a problem.  Otherwise, not so much.

I am not putting out copies on a large scale. If I did, I would only do it if I was sure that nobody had to pay. Heal the sick (do you think that applies only to the physical?) Raise the dead (do you think that applies only to the physical?) cast out demons (do you think that applies only to the physical?)

The TEACHING brings healing and it was FREEEEEELY given to you and me. God did not lead you to the truth because you paid him. He gave you the truth freely and in so doing healed your blindness.

Freely you have received, freely give. No compromise.

[jabcat]

Then answer this;  the workman is worthy of his hire.  Again, I see more than the constricted context which I believe you are using.  Do you think this ministry here is free?  I assure you, it's not.  Many are putting hundreds of dollars from their own pocket to allow you and I to type here this very moment.

[Seth]

Then answer this;  the workman is worthy of his hire.  Again, I see more than the constricted context which I believe you are using.  Do you think this ministry here is free?  I assure you, it's not.  Many are putting hundreds of dollars from their own pocket to allow you and I to type here this very moment.

Do you think the website I put up, plus placement is free? I have received many emails from people who are being healed by the truth of UR. I don't ask for a nickle.

The moment this forum becomes a pay site, I'm gone.

The workman is indeed worthy of his hire, and Paul is clear that we ought to give to eachother, but he is also clear that he demanded NO pay from anyone but that he was cared for by those who also gave freely. Paul never charged money for his teaching.

The one who pays the workman IS GOD, the one who owns the vineyard, not the lost and homeless who are thirsty for wine.

[jabcat]

I don't want to continue this much longer, it's off topic.  Did you pay money for your hard copy of scripture?   I've said I don't believe in taking advantage of people, and I MOSTLY even agree with what you're saying.  I just think there are some contextual issues to consider.  Believe what you feel at peace about.  We're all a work in progress.

[jabcat]

P.S.  the cost of running TM was probably a bad example and best left unsaid.  There are better examples.  My mistake, apologies. 

[Seth]

I don't want to continue this much longer, it's off topic.  Did you pay money for your hard copy of scripture?   I've said I don't believe in taking advantage of people, and I MOSTLY even agree with what you're saying.  I just think there are some contextual issues to consider.  Believe what you feel at peace about.  We're all a work in progress.

Sorry for going off topic a bit. So, I'll just say that the context of "give freely" is healing, and in realizing that healing the sick is not restricted to outer physicality, for those who were healed physically deserted their healer at the cross. He was alone up there. Anyone who has been healed ought to heal freely, and that especially includes the teaching, for the Bible is clear that the teaching DOES heal in the most important way: conversion of the soul.

Anyway, I have no problem with people PAYING for a Bible. My problem is with those that expect the pay for their costs of providing it. If those who are thirsty pay for wine, they do it because they are thirsty. But the one who owns the wine ought to expect his pay from the owner of the vineyard, not the one who thirsts.

Just MHO. Much love.    :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks Seth  :handshake:.  I do it myself, and I just think I see us take such hard lines sometimes and be unwilling to entertain other ideas.  You said "No compromise"...think about that you (and me) paid for our copy of scripture (that's the only way it was available) yet to have a problem with those that we gave that payment to  :Chinscratch:.  I'm not sure that makes complete sense.  ADDENDUM/REVISION*****If we're hard-nosed about it and uncompromising at all, did we then go against our conscience, against our principles by buying our copy of scripture?  I have run across this today, and have tried to admonish myself with it in the past, and will now continue to do so again since I've been reminded of it;   "The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).  I'm the chiefest of sinners here, I overdo it...one way or the other, black or white, no reasonable middle ground, extremes.  This is me to me now;   :spank:     :bigGrin:.******


IMO, if you gave a thousand dollars to a rich charlatan (sp?) "hawking" the Word and trinkets to maintain their obscene wealth, and you received a gold-embossed Bible to put on display and show off, that would give me pause.  But I doubt that's what you did, and the people working in the printing and distributing of your copy could potentially be less off financially than you or I.  Just some thoughts before we draw absolute hard lines.  I'll let you have the last word, then let's get back on topic.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Thanks Seth  :handshake:.  I do it myself, and I just think I see us take such hard lines sometimes and be unwilling to entertain other ideas.  You said "No compromise"...think about that you (and me) paid for our copy of scripture (that's the only way it was available) yet to have a problem with those that we gave that payment to  :Chinscratch:.  I'm not sure that makes complete sense. 

IMO, if you gave a thousand dollars to a rich charlatan (sp?) "hawking" the Word and trinkets to maintain their obscene wealth, and you received a gold-embossed Bible to put on display and show off, that would give me pause.  But I doubt that's what you did, and the people working in the printing and distributing of your copy could potentially be less off financially than you or I.  Just some thoughts before we draw absolute hard lines.  I'll let you have the last word, then let's get back on topic.  :thumbsup:

Jab, maybe we could move the posts to another place rather than feel that we can't discuss it due to the topic. If you would rather not, then I won't continue. Anyway, I was hoping that my illustration was clear about the difference I see between the thirsty who pay because they have to, and the provider who demanding the pay.

The thirsty, who don't know any better, pay for wine if they have no other way to get it, and they are thirsty. The provider OF the wine ought to know better than to expect pay for that which brings healing to the thirsty. That makes sense to me.  :dontknow:

I don't EXPECT pay for the site I have. If people give me money, it would be without necessity, not because I communicated an expectation of pay for the work Jesus has graciously allowed me to do, when I am actually not worthy to tie his shoelaces. I consider my pay to be able to share the truth.

The Bible says not to worry about money. Even the little sparrows are provided for. But the wine he puts in our flask, He expects us to give it away without any expectation of pay from those who thirst.

Yes it is a hard line for me. I believe that hard lines are ok sometimes. Do you have a hardline on whether or not Jesus is the Son of God, and that He will save all? Are you open to the possibility that is not true? Not me. I take a HARD line on that.

Anywho, if you would like to continue this conversation we can do so on a different thread. Let me know.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

I'll trust you already know the answers to the questions you asked of me.  IMO, there a FEW things that are absolutes, essentials of the faith, that are no compromise positions.  Much of the rest, sometimes we take a hard no compromise position, when in fact, those things are His work in progress in us, as He reveals (much of the time, first needing to work on our stubborn natures) new insights and layers of truth about Him and His Word.  I could be wrong, my dim view and  :2c: worth.

Please read my revision/addendum to my previous post about not being overly righteous. 

I just see it that we need to use some discernment and judgment on this issue, not draw a line in the sand and say, "nope, this is the way it is...no exceptions, no reasonable balance..no mitigating circumstances".  My  :2c: is one size doesn't absolutely fit all.  If  "The thirsty, who don't know any better, pay for wine if they have no other way to get it, and they are thirsty. The provider OF the wine ought to know better than to expect pay for that which brings healing to the thirsty", then ABSOLUTELY!, give them what they need, and as believers, let's provide it for free and at our own cost!  And tell the charlatans fleecing the flock that they need to reconsider what they're doing.

But again, God has undeservedly given you and I the means to purchase a copy of scripture, and I would expect to again.  I DIDN'T pay Reverend Goldie Topaz $1000 for a $1 Bible so he could jet off to the Bahamas.  Different deal, IMO.  I could be wrong, but that's how I see it right now.  :afFro:

[Seth]

I'll trust you already know the answers to the questions you asked of me.  IMO, there a FEW things that are absolutes, essentials of the faith, that are no compromise positions.  Much of the rest, sometimes we take a hard no compromise position, when in fact, those things are His work in progress in us, as He reveals (much of the time, first needing to work on our stubborn natures) new insights and layers of truth about Him and His Word.  I could be wrong, my dim view and  :2c: worth.

Please read my revision/addendum to my previous post about not being overly righteous. 

Jab you said: "If we're hard-nosed about it and uncompromising at all, did we then go against our conscience, against our principles by buying our copy of scripture?"

Jab, I think you have misunderstood what I mean, and maybe that is my fault. I am not saying that we should not care for those who are teachers, and that if it is understood between the teacher and the student and the body as a whole that the teacher should be cared for, then by all means, give and do it willingly. I think that is the point I am making.

Do you see the referrence to "do not muzzle the ox." The ox feeds of the grain in the field. So if you really want to be contextual, then you should acknowledge that the church in those times collected together all their money from willing participants of the body in order to CARE for eachother's needs. From that storage of "grain" or from that "field" the "ox" should be able to take from it as he needs. That is what I believe the scripture is saying.

I distinguish that from teach-for-pay setup for either unbelievers and believers are charged a price FIRST in order to access sound teaching - where one cannot receive the truth unless one is FIRST paid, rather than the teacher giving freely first, while subsidized by the BODY. It is the difference between WITHHOLDING teaching until paid, verses giving freely and THEN being cared for by the appreciative Body.

No teaching should be withheld for pay (which is not what I am saying about CPC in particular). I just don't think the Bible-for-pay approach reveals the point of the Timothy reference.

[jabcat]

I don't have an argument with the main body of what you're saying now.  But I don't believe that's how the conversation started.  It was about purchasing a pamphlet, and it was stated that if a person couldn't afford it, it would be given to them.  I think my last post was pretty summarily what I believe.

I almost feel at this point as if we're both standing in the dark tossing pearls at each other, and mostly missing each other's noggin'.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi; this too is something I've wrestled with, as I have a 'problem' with those who charge money for what we should give away as free, but I could also 'see' the laborer worthy of his hire side. As I read both sides of this here, something came into my mind.

There's a third 'way' and it involves the scripture about not making one stumble who is weak in the faith. I always looked at that as 'babes' in Christ being weak in the faith, but hit me was, that those who look to receive payment from other than God FIRST, are also what He means by weak in the faith (even if they are the big ministries we see on TV) and we are not to cause THEM to stumble, either.

In this way, the wisdom of both sides is preserved, and just as importantly, the one viewing the two sides has not caused EITHER to stumble. Blessed ME, I don't know about y'all, LOL. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Yes!  Another way of looking at it.  Good show!  Food for thought.  Thanks, Card.

[Seth]

I don't have an argument with the main body of what you're saying now.  But I don't believe that's how the conversation started.  It was about purchasing a pamphlet, and it was stated that if a person couldn't afford it, it would be given to them.  I think my last post was pretty summarily what I believe.

I almost feel at this point as if we're both standing in the dark tossing pearls at each other, and mostly missing each other's noggin'.

Maybe weren't really missing eachother's noggin that much since we seem to be in agreement to a large degree. Yes, it was stated that if a person could not afford it, it would be given to them. However, to me that misses the heart of it though. For me the heart of it is NOT placing the price tag on the work in the first place. It reverses the order.

The reference to the OXEN in the teaching to Timothy reveals much to me in how we should approach this subject. The ox is not paid first, nor does the ox put a price tag on the work. The oxen are put out to work and along the way are allowed to partake of the grain. In the case of the teachers in the early church, they gave freely. Nothing in the NT supposes that a price tag was placed on sound teaching before it was given as it is in an $8 pamphlet. The advise is saying that IF a workman needs resources from the stores, he ought to be able to take it without being chastised. Putting a price tag on teaching REVERSES that order and demands money FIRST. In fact Paul took his own advice and took money from the collection, which he considered "robbery" because he was so loving. He made it clear that he would not take money from a babe.

Attaching a formal price tag in a blanket fashion so that both unbelievers and believers are placed in a position to ask if they can recieve it for free is not the point and is contrary to the "give freely" nature of the Gospel. Nobody should have to request that. Teaching God's word should be freely given from the start, with the understanding that if the ox needs to eat the grain after a good day's work of freely giving, he ought to be able to do that.  

A price tag cannot be placed on something that is, by nature, priceless.

[Beloved Servant]

WOW.
Seth, that last line is beautiful.

[jabcat]

I say tell that to rip-off charlatans of Babylon.  IMO, it may be easy for us to sit here and say no one printing literature should ask for payment to recoup costs.  But then, as you say, no you don't supply printed copies of scripture en masse, nor do I.  Perhaps if it were left up to us, it wouldn't get done.

Again, I'm not for ripping people off, and things should be provided for free to those that need it that way.  I just really doubt any one of us has the complete and unable-to-be-further-enlightened POV on this, or most things we dig in about.

As far as unable to access sound teaching?  Most of CPC's material is free online.  Yet that's not the total answer though, because not everyone can read or access the internet.  But then that's my point.  Usually, not one single "no compromise" position fits all the possible scenarios that can in reality take "being all things to all men that I may win some".  And if that's out of context, then this one; hmmm, I'll think of one and get back to you later  :laughing7:   :HeartThrob:.

[Seth]

I say tell that to rip-off charlatans of Babylon.  IMO, it may be easy for us to sit here and say no one printing literature should ask for payment to recoup costs.  But then, as you say, no you don't supply printed copies of scripture en masse, nor do I.  Perhaps if it were left up to us, it wouldn't get done.

The way I approach that is that God chooses who He chooses and heals who he heals. My job is not to try to "get the job done" but do whatever I can within the scope of the instructions given to me, and let God use that to his own.  :HeartThrob:

As far as unable to access sound teaching?  Most of CPC's material is free online.  Yet that's not the total answer though, because not everyone can read or access the internet.  But then that's my point.  Usually, not one single "no compromise" position fits all the possible scenarios that can in reality take "being all things to all men that I may win some".  And if that's out of context, then this one; hmmm, I'll think of one and get back to you later  :laughing7:   :HeartThrob:.

James, I just want to clarify the "no compromise" thing. The "no compromise" is INTERNAL, all about the intention. Jesus is clear that it should be freely given. Anything less than an attitude of FREE giving, without demand of compensation first, that is compromise. I know saying that won't make me many friends, because when money gets involved things get sticky  :upset:

In being all things to all people there is no compromise if the teaching of Christ is being followed. Appearing to be a Jew does not mean one believes circumcision is the way to gain righteousness. Compromise starts with the INTERNAL. A compromise is a bargain, or an agreement between two differing sides. The other side of "give freely" is generated by the concern about money and how much it takes to do this and that. This concern about money, which Jesus tells us not to have, naturally works against the idea of giving freely. Compromise is reached when the attitude is "well, it's not like I am making a profit, just recouping cost." It's compromise because it is an agreement reached which makes the work no longer free, even if it doesn't generate a pronounced profit. The problem is that the "free" aspect is not satisfied by the agreement, but the concern over money is satisfied. The bigger problem is that there shouldn't be a concern about money in the first place, and therefore no agreement.

[Doug]

A price tag cannot be placed on something that is, by nature, priceless.

Tell that to Chuck Missler.

http://www.studycenter.com/account/subscriptions_available

Lifetime Scholarship
    Prepaid Lifetime Scholarship $5000 (value: priceless)
:sigh:

Doug

[jabcat]

Doug;  LOL...there's a thousand of'em.

Seth;  That's good.  He'll let you know.  Perhaps we don't know that God hasn't spoken to those at CPC, in His using them as He chooses to use them, to set up the way they carry out their ministry and cover their expenses to mass produce and distribute the CLT and related material.  They are doing things most are not, so IMO, God has placed them where they are.  On a scale of degrees, I just don't personally see them as GENERALLY being out of line with fleecing, money-grubbing, living lavishly, abusing the sheep.  On the same scale, it seems there many that are. 

I understand your thoughts of no compromise being internal, and IMO, that's honorable.  Yet if were to be the case to attempt to then generally apply that to any and all circumstances, every ministry, every individual, would be where I would begin to pause and suggest reconsidering there might be other possibilities and issues.  But as I said earlier, believe what you are at peace with, and we are all His work in progress.

[Seth]

Doug;  LOL...there's a thousand of'em.

Seth;  That's good.  He'll let you know.  Perhaps we don't know that God hasn't spoken to those at CPC, in His using them as He chooses to use them, to set up the way they carry out their ministry and cover their expenses to mass produce and distribute the CLT and related material.  They are doing things most are not, so IMO, God has placed them where they are.  On a scale of degrees, I just don't personally see them as GENERALLY being out of line with fleecing, money-grubbing, living lavishly, abusing the sheep.  On the same scale, it seems there many that are. 

I understand your thoughts of no compromise being internal, and IMO, that's honorable.  Yet if were to be the case to attempt to then generally apply that to any and all circumstances, every ministry, every individual, would be where I would begin to pause and suggest reconsidering there might be other possibilities and issues.  But as I said earlier, believe what you are at peace with, and we are all His work in progress.

I agree. Applying a no compromise approach could even lead to someone losing a life.  :HeartThrob:

Much love brother.  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

I think there is a certain balance to be found here.
There a lot of shades of grey between free and a rip-off.
The Word is free. But are the translations, printing, shipping, commentaries, salaries?
How widespread Bibles and Bible study material (books, software, audio, etc) you think would be if it all was for free?
Imagine a Bible only written in the original  Greek. Many, even Greek people, would have problems reading it. And my guess is that only handfull of Hebrew speaking people can read the Paelo-Hebrew that the OT was written in.
As Jabcat mentioned the workwan deserved some pay too.
Personally I wouldn't even mind to pay a little for forum access. Hosting isn't free. And in general paying (perhaps) allows spredaing teh word on a larger scale.
Perhaps that's a more positive way look at it. When you pay for Bible/Bible related material you don't pay for the material you bought but you hire the seller to spread it even more widely.

[sparrow]

Speaking of money and the gospel...

These are the folks I have an issue with.

Granted, I'd rather shine the spotlight on uplifting things. But I can never seem to be able to bite my tongue when it comes to this stuff. I know people will make excuses for them and say that it is ok, but I will never see this as being ok. Turning the word of God into a massive wealth-builder.
Instead of focusing on LOVE. The focus is on the love of money it seems.
The message being it is wealth that brings happiness...
What about GOD being your source?

:dontknow:

[jabcat]

"Four private jets, an airport/strip and a lakeside house over 18 thousand square feet in size?"   :feint:. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Here's the balance with that, which the Lord pointed out to me years ago after it being brought to my attention by Him that the vow of poverty of the Catholic priests was NOT HOLY, as He came to reverse the curses of POVERTY, sickness, and death........

Abraham, Job, and others in there were probably the equivalent of millionaires (if not billionaires) by today's standards and God called them RIGHTEOUS. And after Job's trial, God even gave him DOUBLE for what he had had before, thus making him even richer. And God said we have a BETTER covenant......

So my point is, God is not bothered at all by great wealth, He is only bothered by the LOVE of it in place of Him, and that would include any schemes in obtaining it that were not ordered by Him.

The financial trials that many of us are facing right now, are only His preparing us to receive great wealth to be used to bless us as well as be used for His Kingdom, as He establishes our hearts to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.

If He did not, then the wheat and the tares being raised up together, any tares left within us would raise up and destroy the blessing. God in His great MERCY, is not allowing that to be a possibility, by preparing our hearts to receive FIRST, and I just have to praise Him for it, because I have no doubt that the great wealth He first spoke to me about 20+ years ago that would be coming in this season, is not far off, else the "processing" needed to receive it, would not be going on right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

Personally I wouldn't even mind to pay a little for forum access. Hosting isn't free. And in general paying (perhaps) allows spredaing teh word on a larger scale.
Perhaps that's a more positive way look at it. When you pay for Bible/Bible related material you don't pay for the material you bought but you hire the seller to spread it even more widely.

The balance I see is in that if YOU made that decision, then it is you giving freely. However if a seeker cannot access the site to learn and ask questions, and therefore find healing because of the price tag associated with the forum, then it becomes a heal-for-pay situation.

If services are NOT rendered due to money (whether it be a pre-pay price tag, or stopping the work until being paid) that is where I have a problem. If an "ox" is working from a "giving freely" point of view, it doesn't stop the work if the grain of the field is not available. But if it is available, the ox should be able to take what it needs.

That is the balance I see between Christ's and Paul's words.