The Harshness of God

[Molly]

10 That I may know him...

--Php3

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

guess we are amidst the proverbial "tug-O-war" eh?  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

There is a difference between BEING LIMITED and SETTING LIMITS...  

If GOD created the ROCK not to be lifted then it is HIS PURPOSE that limits the ROCK from being lifted...

Just as He created WHITE to be WHITE... and not BLACK... White is not limited by Black, it is set in its scenario to be what it is by GOD...

GOD is not limited by establishing WHITE to be WHITE... He has set it up to be part of HIS PURPOSE in Creation... and WHITE is pivotal to BLACK, ...not "limited" when compared to BLACK... because it is white...  :wacko2: :heat:

If GOD so chose to do so, ...He could make WHITE to be other than just white... for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He is NOT limited by His Creation... His Creation is LIMITED by HIM...  :dontknow:

This is a chicken & egg type of "arguement", and you are welcome to see it however you might... I believe GOD can make something -- anything, to BE what it is, and He does not LIMIT Himself in that creative effort... He purposes everything in its place and order...  :declare:

"Limitations" are only found within the minds of men which cannot know the complexities and perfect of the mind of God, while in the sinful state...

God cannot be tempted?  Because He is limited? OR, because in His wisdom, HE has set this "limitation" for the good of all... including Himself.

He has (had FOREVER), the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... and being ALMIGHTY, He could be as EVIL as He might wish to be, and NO ONE could make so much as a peep about it!   :dontknow:

However... He has set Himself within the "limitation" of GOOD, because HE has decided to do it, and HE has decided it is best, ...and NOT because He is LIMITED by any external or Created thing...

...willieH  :happygrin:

[aspiring son]

 

Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

If we see with spiritual eyes, the fact that these atrocities are among us everyday, the greatness of sufferings this world has seen and will see, is a reflection all the more of how glorious his reconciliation will be. Genocides, slavery, rape, murder, unexpected deaths of loved ones- though they are unbearable for us to even think of at times, let alone go through, how powerful is the glory that awaits? God is so powerful beyond our comprehension, that he can subject us to things beyond our comprehension, to get us to his glory that is beyond our comprehension in this life, but is to come.

[Paul Hazelwood]

There is a difference between BEING LIMITED and SETTING LIMITS...  

If GOD created the ROCK not to be lifted then it is HIS PURPOSE that limits the ROCK from being lifted...

Yes there is a difference between being limited and setting limits, that combined with your answer to the question does not demonstrate limitless. 

Saying God did not lift the rock because he declared it to not be lifted only makes an excuse for God's inability to make a rock that he cannot lift.   

There is a difference in being "unable" to lift it and "choosing" not to.

If GOD so chose to do so, ...He could make WHITE to be other than just white... for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He is NOT limited by His Creation... His Creation is LIMITED by HIM...  :dontknow:

You have not demonstrated that nothing is impossible, you have only made excuses for the impossible.   If God did not declare the rock to not be lifted then it would be lifted no matter how big it was.   

This is a chicken & egg type of "arguement", and you are welcome to see it however you might... I believe GOD can make something -- anything, to BE what it is, and He does not LIMIT Himself in that creative effort... He purposes everything in its place and order...  :declare:

The argument has nothing to do with chickens or eggs,  it is a matter of scripture and Gods character. 

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.

This verse is about the nature of God no matter what we can come up with.   What God is, whether there are limits, does not prevent God from being sovereign over all that is possible.  God actually can't make a rock that he could not lift, he really doesn't need an excuse, thats just the way it is,  so what?   

It is not limiting God any more than the reality of what is.       


Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

[claypot]

Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

Paul, you are asking what I am asking and I ask just to understand God better because I think that is a good thing.

Now to your question which you worded well IMO................

I am thinking lately that this is an experience God is putting Himself through. That sound ridiculous on the surface but God does experience things doesn't He? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. It would be boring to be God if everything just was and there was no learning or no sponineity. Now again, to put God and 'learning' in the same sphere seems blasphemous but maybe you get my drift.

I am trying to say that God is putting Himself through something and we are His conscious agents as it were.

This is so hard to put into words. I will stop here and ask if you get even a glimmer of what I am trying to say or maybe you think I should be stoned!!!

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

Paul, you are asking what I am asking and I ask just to understand God better because I think that is a good thing.

Now to your question which you worded well IMO................

I am thinking lately that this is an experience God is putting Himself through. That sound ridiculous on the surface but God does experience things doesn't He? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. It would be boring to be God if everything just was and there was no learning or no sponineity. Now again, to put God and 'learning' in the same sphere seems blasphemous but maybe you get my drift.

I am trying to say that God is putting Himself through something and we are His conscious agents as it were.

This is so hard to put into words. I will stop here and ask if you get even a glimmer of what I am trying to say or maybe you think I should be stoned!!!

cp

I would stone you, but I cannot lift the Rock   :laughing7:

I think I understand what your saying.   What people object to as far as limitations are not actually limitations but a reality of what is.

Perhaps to increase as a family there is only one way to do that and God also has to experience what we go through and that is a part of why there is so much security in him. 

Psalm 148:8-9 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.

God tells us that things have to be a certain way.   If we wrongly apply limitless to God then we can rightly question his character for making things a certain way. 


Ro 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading the sake of us with inarticulate groanings.

[Beloved Servant]

maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

[claypot]

maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

I like it BServ. Thinking material for sure.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

It also applies to God not changing.   Since God is existence and things must be a certain way and that certain way ensures our perfection, then what is perceived by our minds as a "limitation"  is why our journey is glorious, it is not a limitation it is how it is, there is no "changing" it.

When we view this under the model of traditional teaching we will perceive God as separate from us so we will not see that it isn't that God can't change it as a limitation, there is nothing to change in the first place.

When the bible says "all things are possible" that is true, but it is true within what is possible.   If all things are possible as a limitless assertion,  then God can change and we cannot trust his promises.

[Sarah]

Sometimes I think this whole human experience is set before us as a vocabulary exercise. In a way like learning a language for something we can't quite comprehend right now. Maybe its just the teacher in me that is equating God to a Great Teacher. But then the cynical part of me wonders why someone has to loose a child, be molested, cheated, etc to learn a lesson. Why couldn't God just download the knowledge? Well, maybe He is and this is that moment.

[Paul Hazelwood]

maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

It's a great passage

Hb 2:18 For in what He' has suffered, undergoing trial, He is able to help those who are being tried.

[Molly]

48 I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

--John 6


"bread" [of life]

G740
ἄρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.


The unleavened bread is the Law. It has not yet been raised (airō) by the Holy Spirit.

The Pharisees leaven the bread with man's law.  We are told, Do not eat this leavening.

Later, things will change.   Peter will be so filled with the bread of life--the leavening of God--that when Ananias lies to Peter, he is really lying to the Holy Spirit.


Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

...You have not lied to men but to God."


But, first, we must all go through the wilderness, eating the unleavened bread and the manna (what's this?) of our fathers.


5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

--Numbers 20

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sarah...  :happy3:

Sometimes I think this whole human experience is set before us as a vocabulary exercise. In a way like learning a language for something we can't quite comprehend right now. Maybe its just the teacher in me that is equating God to a Great Teacher. But then the cynical part of me wonders why someone has to loose a child, be molested, cheated, etc to learn a lesson. Why couldn't God just download the knowledge? Well, maybe He is and this is that moment.

:first: :mthumbsup: :happyclap: ...VERY INSIGHTFUL thinking, Sarah!

Something like, ...THIS LIFE is like a "GOD produced [eternal] movie" starring JESUS and ALL mankind... displaying the KNOWLEDGE to ALL before ALL...  :JCThink:

...willieH  :angel4: