Tentmaker Forum

This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

I don't know what you mean by 'harshness of God,' cp.

Is that Biblical?  Or just a conclusion that you've drawn.

God is just. God is fair.  But, harsh?

I don't see that.

It's man who is harsh.  King David when given the choice of falling into the hands of man or of God, chose God.  God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.  It is evil man who is harsh, inventing torture for his fellow man, always thinking up new ways to kill, new ways to cunningly take advantage, new ways to destroy everything that is good and true.

Give me God any day of the week over man.

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2009, 04:34:04 PM
I don't know what you mean by 'harshness of God,' cp.

Is that Biblical?  Or just a conclusion that you've drawn.

God is just. God is fair.  But, harsh?

I don't see that.

It's man who is harsh.  King David when given the choice of falling into the hands of man or of God, chose God.  God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.  It is evil man who is harsh, inventing torture for his fellow man, always thinking up new ways to kill, new ways to cunningly take advantage, new ways to destroy everything that is good and true.

Give me God any day of the week over man.

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

I agree that man is harsh.

Biblical yes and a conclusion I have drawn from observation.

Molly, for an entity, any entity, to 'think' up such a creation, that entity is no wimp. Think about it, to make something so sensitive to pain and prone to misery and weakness and carelessness and so forth and then to let it subject itself to horrible torments..............this takes a strong Being.

Can you imagine what God goes through watching us and participating in this reality with us? Of course we can't but even to imagine a bit.......... Then to think He foreknew, He thought all this up, knowing how much we would suffer and then to 'decide' to do it.

Again, I realize this is the only way for God to get exactly what He wants or He wouldn't put Himself and us through it all but I'm just saying it is very harsh and it takes a very tough Being to pull it off.

God sure is loving and kind and gentle, but if that's the only side of Him you see then you are not heeding your Bible or the world around you and I know you better than that, Molly.

Again, man is very harsh and downright cruel, which God is not (cruel that is), but then again this is all God's ultimate doing and He knew the moment He thought up man, He knew exactly how harsh things would be.

My point is that it takes a very tough Being to allow such atrocities to occur while basically sitting back and watching and allowing it. Even though He has only our ultimate best in mind, it still takes a toughness and yes, a harshness that, of course, is beyond me.

cp

God knew the moment He made man exactly what atrocities man would commit and He knew that He would watch these horrible atrocities and allow them. He knew He would not interfere in many small ways but let the blood and evil flow until people put guns in their mouths to stop the agony or just went numb.

To even be able to think up such a creation takes a harshness of 'soul', don't you think? I mean to create something that can be so vile, that takes an awesome thinking process.

Even to have the best outcome I could imagine, and I can imagine a lot, I can't bring myself to think that I would have the guts and strength to create something that would suffer so much. This, to me, takes a harshness and a toughness that is way beyond me.

God is love so to create something that is allowed to get so infected with evil must torture the heck out of Him and all I'm saying is that to endure that kind of torture God has got to be very tough. And to even think up creatures that can perform such hideous acts tells me there must be some harshness within this Love.

cp

Yes, I agree he has to be very tough.  So do we.

It hurts to the bone to see it go on day and night.

2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2009, 06:30:01 PM
Yes, I agree he has to be very tough.  So do we.

It hurts to the bone to see it go on day and night.

2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

I battle with the word 'harsh' too. Tough is a given. Tougher than nails, He has to be.

The only reason I use the description of 'harshness' is because I wonder what is within God Himself that would cause even Him to entertain such 'thoughts'? I don't say it's a sinful or evil harshness, just a harshness that could and would even think up these things to begin with.

If it hurts us to the bone can you imagine what it is like for God and again, to think He can think up such a plan that causes such hurt to all including Himself.............................What an awesome God we serve and His ways certainly are past finding out, but one can think!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

cp

What thoughts are you talking about?  Man's thoughts are not God's thoughts.  Man has a certain amount of (since I'm not allowed to say 'free will') autonomy.



This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar.



30 "The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but provoke me with what their hands have made, declares the LORD. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters  to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

--Jer 32

Quotethough I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 07:08:59 PM

Quotethough I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

Quote from: willieH on June 12, 2009, 08:03:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 07:08:59 PM

Quotethough I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

...willieH  :happy3:

The conclusion is based upon the verse I responded to.   It is sometimes said that God ordained that a child will be raped.   Yet the verse I responded to shows the difficulty in rendering such an absolute conclusion.   Perhaps it is not possible to know all the "doings" of God, but if God ordained that someone does such a detestable thing, why do we have the Lord saying that "it did not enter his mind that they should do such a detestable thing"?

It does not say that God did not know, only that he did NOT command it nor did it enter his mind that they "should" do it.   

But did God prepare the way despite that?   Yes.   In proverbs 5:21 the words translated to "ponders"  can mean  "To prepare the way"

So if God declares that he did not command something and it did not enter his mind that they should.   How can you conclude that he indeed did command it and that it did enter his mind that they should?

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2009, 07:01:28 PM
What thoughts are you talking about?  Man's thoughts are not God's thoughts.  Man has a certain amount of (since I'm not allowed to say 'free will') autonomy. [willieH:  but your "saying" it anyway -- eh?  :laughing7:]

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar.

30 "The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but provoke me with what their hands have made, declares the LORD. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters  to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

--Jer 32

The words before what you underlined explain what is actually happening...  This verse is of the ..."GOD REPENTING"...  variety which many try to use to show GOD as UNCERTAIN or a "changeable or adapting" entity... reacting TO MEN, instead of the way it really is, ...MEN react TO GOD...

Because this thread and the points already made are definitely PRECURSORS to a "free-will" versus "sovereignty" arguement (as Molly suggests by USING the ever-so-slightly "shaded" word -- "autonomy" -- above  :laughhand:)... I will try to make the point which opposes the inference already made quickly, ...in hopes to avoid such an arguement... yet presenting the opposing point.

(1) GOD never "REPENTS" (as does man), REGRETTING the things HE has chosen to DO, as is assumed by some in Scripture...

His "repentence" is a condescension He makes, as He looks upon the  plight of man within its "PATHWAY" of suffering, ...within a SUFFERING He is enduring as well -- Rom 9:22

(2) The verse above is NOT suggesting that the "DOING of JUDAH" in ANY WAY, took Him by surprise (or "off guard") as if He had not "thought" of this... that IN ITSELF is PERFECTLY preposterous.  :laughing7:

It is stating that the DOING of JUDAH was not COMMANDED by Him... even though it was ORDAINED to happen according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of it... (See Rom 9:11 for an example of this process)

Just as EVE within ADAM, was NOT COMMANDED to eat of the tree, ...she in fact, was COMMANDED otherwise... however,

It is WRITTEN that she ATE of the tree... in the ETERNAL WORD, and that WORD which so states that she "ate", never CHANGES... nor did it require EVE to eat, ("do" so) before the WORD which notes SHE ATE, could be WRITTEN...

Furthermore, ...GOD was not "taken by surprise" or "off guard" by her indescretion... rather, He KNEW before He COMMANDED, that she would eat...  Just as He also KNEW the answer to His questions of them before they answered...  For before the World even was CREATED, ...CHRIST was slain and IN PLACE... for this primary and pivotal indescretion which HAD YET to TAKE PLACE in TIME...  Not as a "reaction", rather as part of PROCESS of PERFECTION = Heb 2:10

This same thing applies to the above verse... GOD did NOT COMMAND that Judah Sin, but He did ORDAIN via His PERFECT Foreknowledge, that Judah SIN... For it is WRITTEN in the WORD (which is ETERNAL --without beginning or end, and without necessity of TIME manifestations -- i.e. CHRIST slain FROM the foundation of the world - Rev 13:8)... that Judah sinned.

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

The debate over free will or sovereignty is not necessary here.

It simply is seeing that there appears to be a contradiction to say God ordained something that He then declares that he did not ordain.

So it is not "believing as we will" it is simply a matter of reading a scripture that presents a problem to a mans point of view.

Hey Gang, I was just looking for some responses about the harshness of God. I am not at all looking for words on anything else. You all are great.

Molly I don't understand your question about thoughts. I don't know if I would say God 'thinks' so I put the word 'thought' in semi colens.

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 12, 2009, 03:07:37 PM
This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

This is what I would like to discuss if we can.

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 12, 2009, 09:44:36 PM

Quote from: claypot on June 12, 2009, 03:07:37 PM
This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

This is what I would like to discuss if we can.

cp

Hi CP,

Appreciate your desire to know more and I hope that from day to day I do not get too comfortable with what I believe so as to not learn.

Indeed, I have allowed my kids to fail in some ways when I was sure it would demonstrate to them a reality of life, but along with that allowance within my own realm of interacting with my children I would help them understand that failure is not futility and that  we must work hard to be able to accept failure and either try again or come to a reasonable conclusion to move on.

One of the difficulties is working through the WHY's and perhaps many why questions we will not know the answer to in this lifetime.   I still think one of the keys to my own spiritual freedom was understanding that even though the prevalent "thought" concerning a God that is worth devoting time to is that there is no limits, nothing impossible, that those are emotional terms and not factual terms.

It does not bother me that I personally have concluded that God cannot do absolutely anything because the character of the God I know may have an outlook such as you do.   

"I would not"   I understand that thought since we do not know the end result, it is faith and hope for what we cannot see, feel, or touch.   

Given the scriptures that indicate that God does indeed suffer "with" us to a certain extent shows that this God even having certain limits concerning what "MUST" happen to perfect us  chose to grieve for a time understanding that when we are perfected we will have no choice but to say it was worth every stripe and bruise.

It is that I hope for and it is that I will live out the rest of my life believing simply because it offers life to others and if I die and find out I was wrong I will not have wasted my life sharing such things with the living. 

:icon_flower:

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on June 12, 2009, 08:03:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 07:08:59 PM

Quotethough I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

...willieH  :happy3:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 08:23:16 PMThe conclusion is based upon the verse I responded to.   It is sometimes said that God ordained that a child will be raped.   Yet the verse I responded to shows the difficulty in rendering such an absolute conclusion.   Perhaps it is not possible to know all the "doings" of God, but if God ordained that someone does such a detestable thing, why do we have the Lord saying that "it did not enter his mind that they should do such a detestable thing"?

I must agree that it is NOT POSSIBLE to know ALL the "doings" of GOD... for Heavens sake, how can FINITES even propose such a thought?  To have the capacity to behold the INFINITE?  :mshock:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 08:23:16 PMIt does not say that God did not know, only that he did NOT command it nor did it enter his mind that they "should" do it.   

But did God prepare the way despite that?   Yes.   In proverbs 5:21 the words translated to "ponders"  can mean  "To prepare the way"

So if God declares that he did not command something and it did not enter his mind that they should.   How can you conclude that he indeed did command it and that it did enter his mind that they should?

You are missing the point brother P...

I did NOT say that GOD "COMMANDED" this... I said He ORDAINED it according to HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE...  He COMMANDS Righteousness... for Righteousness it the result of the process of fulfilling His COMMAND...

HIS COMMANDS are RIGHTEOUSNESS and GOOD... However,

Where this FORK in the road lies, is that He also created EVIL... In which HIS COMMANDS are seen VIOLATED and TRANSGRESSED... and HE also put these IN PLACE, or they would not ...BE... For He created ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS that exist, are according to HIS WILL -- but not ALL THINGS that HE CREATES or "ORDAINS", are specifically "COMMANDS" Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:18-19

Scripture points out that ALL POWER is of GOD -- Rom 13:1 -- and that any resistance to POWERS which are ORDAINED by GOD, ...is resistance to the ORDINANCE of GOD...

That indulging in EVIL is (conscious or unconscious) transgression of COMMANDS of GOD...  is STILL "power" being exercised... 

Is not "choosing" a "power"?  It takes POWER to "choose" does it not?  And if so, then choice is seen at times to result in GOOD and at others results in EVIL, but irregardless of the classification of the result, it is STILL a "power" being EXERCISED...  :dontknow:

God INTENDS these EVIL MANIFESTATIONS to occur... this is plainly indicated by CHRIST and His ORDAINED mission ...already in place... before the first MAN even appears. 

This was not a REACTIVE measure, it was INTENDED... otherwise, MAN is seen dictating to GOD via his WILL as opposed to YHVH as the Scripturally noted, ...being the CONTROLLING entity... Eph 1:11

This ORDAINED "DEATH" mission which (later in TIME) manifests the DEATH of JESUS, is found in the PERFECT atmosphere... before ANYTHING which causes DEATH (evil + sin) was brought forth!  :dontknow:  And is NOT decided by the "doings" of MEN, rather was decided BEFORE there WERE men to "do --> doings"...  :laughing7:

EVIL (as CREATED by GOD) within His PURPOSE, demands DEATH by its practice, according to that PERFECT and Eternal FOREKNOWLEDGE and PLAN...  which PRECEEDED man... AND, ...death.

And was so DECREED by that PERFECT ETERNAL FOREKNOWLEDGE -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Isaiah 48:3

NOT by the eventual Finite, and EVIL manifestations of MAN, in TIME...  :dontknow:

Hi Willie,


If you are saying that despite knowing what we would choose to do he created us anyway, then we are in agreement on that specifically.

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 09:36:00 PMThe debate over free will or sovereignty is not necessary here.

It simply is seeing that there appears to be a contradiction to say God ordained something that He then declares that he did not ordain.

There is no contradiction... it is all in how each of us are observing the terms, "ORDINANCE" and "COMMAND"...

LIFE occurs in an ORDAINED setting which does not always involve "COMMAND"...

GOD via His Creating method has "ORDAINED" breath necessary for living entities (in TIME) to continue LIVING...

I breathe IN and OUT... even though, it is not "COMMANDED" that I do so... however, if I do NOT continue to BREATHE... then even though I have NOT transgressed a "COMMAND", I will DIE, because of that cessation...

That which GOD "ordains" is NOT always HIS "COMMAND"... ALL things are created, and worked BY HIM, according to HIS WILL... not ALL THINGS are "COMMANDED"...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 12, 2009, 09:36:00 PMSo it is not "believing as we will" it is simply a matter of reading a scripture that presents a problem to a mans point of view.

That "man" is you brother Paul... It poses a problem to you, not to me...  :dontknow:

And regardless... you DO believe as you "will"... as do I...  :yes:

It does not matter what is said to the other, by either of us... it matters what is said to us by GOD...

"Either" of us can either "SEE the contradiction" or not... and it is within HIS will that we either SEE or do not... (See "blindness in part is HAPPENED in Israel" -- Rom 11:25 -- NOT of their "WILL" to be BLIND, or because of "COMMAND", ...but of because of HIS "ordination" they be BLIND!)

It is not a matter of our will (free or otherwise)... it is a matter of HIS... however... we still either believe or not, as we "will"...

That said, ...only one of us is aware that it is according to HIS DECREE (ordination)... of that "will" that we "believe" as we DO...  :thinking:  (Again See Rom 11:25)

:Peace:

I see where you are coming from concerning the terms Commanded and Ordained.

God ordained that we would be created knowing the choices we would make.  He planned for those choices so that it would be impossible to ever be lost forever.
His plan commands us to righteousness despite the choices we make.

Quote from: cpIf it hurts us to the bone can you imagine what it is like for God and again, to think He can think up such a plan that causes such hurt to all including Himself.............................What an awesome God we serve and His ways certainly are past finding out, but one can think!

Maybe because the plan is unknown to us, it looks harsh?

What is the plan?


20 For the creation was subjected  to futility  —not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it  —in the hope 21 that the creation itself  will also be set free from the bondage of corruption into the glorious freedom of God's children. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together with labor pains  until now.

--Romans 8


He wants me to do what?  Who does he think I am? :mshock:


4 How long will the land mourn
    and the grass of every field wither?
    Because of the evil of its residents,
    animals and birds have been swept away,
    for [the people] have said,
    "He cannot see what our end will be."

--Jer 12


Maybe we've forgotten what it was like before Adam?


2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

--Gen 1

Consider all the insects.  It has been estimated there are over 100,000 stars visible in the sky on a very clear night.  It is also thought that there are over 100,000 species of insects for every one of those stars and there are innumerable members to each species. Mostly these insects have short lives.  They have eyes that see, they taste and have little minds that remember, hands and antenna that feel, and hearts that feel desire for their mates. They are eaten alive by other creeping things.  They lose limbs, pieces are bit out of them, they suffer illnesses, fall subject to old age and die.  Theirs is a suffering way.  I don't understand why God likes so many insects or why He has them sufferring.  What does the manifestation of the sons (legal heirs) of God have to do with it?  Will they somehow at least improve the situation?  Maybe they have another nature appearing in the resurrection but for now God made them to suffer.  He sees through all of their eyes, He knows what they think and feel altogether. As He gives them existence, He is experiencing everything of their lives.  Why their pain?

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53

52:13 Behold, my servant shall prosper,
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
52:14 As many were astonished at him ­­
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the sons of men ­­
52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they shall see,
and that which they have not heard they shall understand.

53:1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hey Molly, the full plan is unknown to us but the pain and misery is most assuredly known as God foresaw. As the Psalm you quoted says, it was the will of God to bruise him and to put him to grief.

This is so deep to me. That God has the ability to willingly cause severe pain and misery and that He does it.

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;

Oh, as much as I know God, I know He has His reasons and they are perfect but to create and do such harsh and horrible things has got to take a strength of character and even a 'hardness' that even a 'Hitler' does not possess.

All to teach us something? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Reform, very interesting observations. Talk about tough love!

cp

But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

53:1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

--Isa 53


"the arm" [of the LORD]
H2220
זרעה    זרועה    זרע    זרוע
zerôa‛  zerôa‛  zerô‛âh zerô‛âh
zer-o'-ah (1,2), zer-o-aw' (3,4)
From H2232; the arm (as stretched out), or (of animals) the foreleg; figuratively force: - arm, + help, mighty, power, shoulder, strength.



The word for arm is the same word used  for the shank of the Passover lamb.  Let's look at its root.




H2232
זרע
zâra‛
zaw-rah'
A primitive root; to sow; figuratively to disseminate, plant, fructify: - bear, conceive seed, set with, sow (-er), yield.




53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;

Hi claypot,

I know a thing or two about mental suffering, because I have schizophrenia. As far as I am concerned, I can bear it as long as I have a secure hope that one day the pain will be over. This is right where UR steps in, and gives me this hope. It even stretches out to all of mankind, so this worry about others is taken care of too.

The problem is an ET view of things. If you believe that salvation is conditional in the sense that you can ultimately screw it up and loose it, THEN things get dicey. Because THEN you may end up without a hope, and without a God you can trust in to be your compassionate companion through life.

But in a sense you are right, God IS tough. He certainly didn't create a rosy and soft world. Some philosophers call this the problem of evil, and say it would pose an argument against faith. Yet, despite there being evil, there is also much good happening. So we not only have a problem of evil, we also have a problem of good. Think of nature in spring. Think of mother love. Think of little sparrows in their nests. Think of dolphins in the sea.

I would also think of this: when we were not believers yet we didn't complain much about our difficulties in life. We bore them. We handled them. We lived with them. But now that we know about God we complain. Suddenly that cold you just caught feels unbearable because you feel God could take it away any moment, but doesn't. Suddenly you feel treated unjustly. That's impatience, and we all need the gift of patience which the Holy Spirit gives to us.

But think of this: if one man suffers, why should not all people suffer sometimes? If there was only one man who ever suffered, what would that mean in terms of justice if he had stayed the only one? I know this is tough thinking.

At any case, what Paul writes is true: suffering produces something good in our characters. I mean, I see it in myself, I have become more gentle since I got accustomed to my schizophrenia. I could relate more. We humans relate most with each other through our happiness and through our pain. If I had never suffered, I would not know what pain is, and could not really relate to people who are in pain.

Our problem rests in often being unable to take the whole cup of life, with both its good and the bad, out of the hand of God. I've not always been managed to do it, but sometimes I have also been able to thank God for my problems and issues, and when I managed it the pain quickly got into the background. When you are suffering, what you do not need is a struggle with your Maker. That only makes the whole thing really unbearable.

willieH: Hi reFORMer... :hithere:

Bless your heart for your compassionate words below!  :friendstu:

Quote from: reFORMer on June 13, 2009, 08:22:38 AM
Consider all the insects.  It has been estimated there are over 100,000 stars visible in the sky on a very clear night.  It is also thought that there are over 100,000 species of insects for every one of those stars and there are innumerable members to each species. Mostly these insects have short lives.  They have eyes that see, they taste and have little minds that remember, hands and antenna that feel, and hearts that feel desire for their mates. They are eaten alive by other creeping things.  They lose limbs, pieces are bit out of them, they suffer illnesses, fall subject to old age and die.  Theirs is a suffering way.  I don't understand why God likes so many insects or why He has them sufferring.  What does the manifestation of the sons (legal heirs) of God have to do with it?  Will they somehow at least improve the situation?  Maybe they have another nature appearing in the resurrection but for now God made them to suffer.  He sees through all of their eyes, He knows what they think and feel altogether. As He gives them existence, He is experiencing everything of their lives.  Why their pain?

You know, I have considered this.  In fact, I do not kill insects, even when they enter my home (unless they attack me)... I try to capture them and release them outdoors.  At first my wife thought I was nuts, but I insisted to her that these each had their own lives given by God, and it was not right for me to take their lives if at all possible.  If say a wasp got aggressive and tried to sting me, then he wages war against me in my own home, and must suffer the reactions to his aggression...

I believe that All things which have life, suffer on earth.  And it is because ADAM was given authority (dominion) over the Creation (every living thing) -- Gen 1:28 -- and IN his sin, has all that was put under him, become subject to that error as well...

This is why all things must be subdued and PUT UNDER CHRIST, accordingly, ALL is found in subjection TO HIM... and the manifestation of RECONCILIATION, and the REVERSAL of what ADAM did, ...complete -- 1 Cor 15:28

There will be such a JOY to the deep details that men shall experience when all is said and done, to be beyond description!

I have told my wife, that this whole procedure of God is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger than we can possibly imagine...  Just as man has given an immeasureable picture of TORMENT from God... the OPPOSITE JOY for ALL shall be what actually occurs...

Even the ones who are presently WRONG about God and His plan, and have erroneously presented Him FALSELY before the World, within the grief of this revelation, shall they gain an equally unspeakable JOY within the recoiling from that error and grief... as the Father drys the TEARS from their eyes...  :bgdance:

Pain and suffering has a DIVINE MAJESTY attached to it... for it is said in Heb 2:10 that CHRIST was made COMPLETE (PERFECT) ...through SUFFERINGS...

Which means that SUFFERING is a "conduit" of sorts -- that leads to PERFECTION... Only the FATHER now holds understanding of this process and its necessity to include SUFFERING, but we shall ALL come to know it as HE knows it...

GOD Himself is "SUFFERING" with us -- Rom 9:22 -- and that "SUFFERING" is necessary to make ALL things COMPLETE, or it would not be done.

:Peace:

  :HeartThrob:
  this is a great thread , and kudos to those who have shared in this disscussion
  I dont have much to say except .....  when speaking of not   killing  the ''bugs''    my hubby told me once '' Everything wants to LIVE ''..
and though there is suffering involved ''with living ''  that desire/will  still  proves true even in scriptures .. :bigGrin:

  I have  had times of ''giving up ''  this life and  yet the Lord returns in that peace to where I can still find  some joy in living
  makes me wonder what kind of ''spirit '' looms over  me at times  making  that  desire to die come over me ?
  sometimes I believe that  part of submission and being made humble  comes from the suffering we see in daily living /life 
and  the suffering  that we are experiencing as Willie put it '' with the Lord suffing  with us........   I know without ''His presence'' at times, I  just cannot go on  being in the world but not of it ..... :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2009, 06:14:31 PM
But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2009, 06:14:31 PM
But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

Yes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

Anti n, I hear ya. I am not complaining in the least about my or any sufferings as I believe for them to be in existence they must need to be. God would not allow anything to occur that is not good for us ultimately.

My only point is that God foreknew the results of His creating process and went ahead with it anyway. The results of His creating people would include torture, rape, incest, crucifixions, water boardings, and so on, and He went ahead anyway. This takes not only a tough being but, in my opinion, a perfectly harsh being also. These evils are harsh and they exist ultimately because of Gods design. To say God did not know such evils would result from His creating is just not right IMO.

God is putting Himself through this whole harsh process too which really makes me stand in awe of Him because I couldn't conceive of putting myself through such nastiness. His ways are truly beyond even what I can imagine.

cp

Quote from: cpYes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

But who takes the brunt of the harshness?  God himself.


53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,


And for what reason?  So we do not have to.



53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.


And to save many souls alive.


by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

 

good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge ''of good and evil ''
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2009, 01:07:52 AM


good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge "of good and evil "
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

Hi rosered.  I think we would if we could figure out what the tree of life is.

For me, I think it's Christ...in us. :HeartThrob:

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

--Rev 22

[the]"leaves" [of the tree]

G5444
φύλλον
phullon
fool'-lon
From the same as G5443; a sprout, that is, leaf: - leaf.


G5443
φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.



1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.



--Isa 11

Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2009, 02:03:44 AM

Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2009, 01:07:52 AM


good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge "of good and evil "
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

Hi rosered.  I think we would if we could figure out what the tree of life is.

For me, I think it's Christ...in us. :HeartThrob:

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

--Rev 22

[the]"leaves" [of the tree]

G5444
φύλλον
phullon
fool'-lon
From the same as G5443; a sprout, that is, leaf: - leaf.


G5443
φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.



1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.



--Isa 11

I agree Molly , Jesus is that  Tree/Life  :thumbsup:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

 
Rev 2:7 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says  unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.  

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 

Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2009, 12:41:37 AM

Quote from: cpYes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

But who takes the brunt of the harshness?  God himself.


53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,


And for what reason?  So we do not have to.



53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.


And to save many souls alive.


by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Molly, I totally agree God takes the harshness more than we do. We are but finite and understand and experience things in a finite or limited way. God, on the other hand, is eternal, infinite, so the harshness of His own actions are 'experienced' in like manner I would think.

But my point is, is not who takes the brunt of all the harshness but it is the fact that Gods plan and creation, which originates from His own 'heart and mind', are extremely harsh. God is a harsh God but perfect in all His ways to be sure.

Yes He bears this harshness (that He foreknew upon creating us) not, as you say, so we don't have to, but with us so we can and will endure and learn something.

And yes, this harshness, along with gentleness and wonder, will reap many souls alive.

Again, I am seeing God in a way I never saw Him before. His goodness/harshness is more terrible than any evil. I mean it. The greatest evil pales before Gods harsh and perfect ways.

And yet again, for God to create such a harsh world from which so much cruelty abounds takes a 'heart and mind' that is so complex and so strong and so mysterious and so harsh that it can never be fathomed.

If any person even comes close to hurting another by so arranging things and allowing them to occur as God does, we would hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Yet, of course for God to do so is fine for we know He loves us and His ways are perfect.

Hitler wanted to do evil to millions of Jews for what He thought was a greater good for the world. We call this insane. I agree. Some say God created a world, foreknowing the pain and misery and horror that would abound, for the same reason. We call this holy and perfect and right. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. I agree I think.

But my point is, this is a horribly harsh reality created by God Himself.

cp

Claypot,
The reality of everything spiritual can be seen in the physical.
The Father is allowing His child growing pains.
Without this, we will not mature to His stature; share in His nature.
It takes an affliction to work a compassion.
Remember the Cross.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcweVrHllP8

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 04:37:39 AM
Claypot,
The reality of everything spiritual can be seen in the physical.
The Father is allowing His child growing pains.
Without this, we will not mature to His stature; share in His nature.
It takes an affliction to work a compassion.
Remember the Cross.

Man, I hear ya there for sure BServ.

Our Father is spiritual, Jesus said His words were spirit and truth. I see all as you describe it.

What I am seeing is that for God to allow His children 'growing pains' such as rape, torture, incest, crucifixions, mental cruelties and so on, takes a incredibly harsh and strong nature. This is not me letting my child get sick by smoking cigarettes so he can learn a lesson or even worse, letting my child get burned on a stove to learn a lesson. No this would be like me letting my daughter get raped right in front of me so she could learn a higher lesson about sin and her need for God.

Only God can allow and witness such atrocities because only God can bring the good out of it. But again, BServ, don't you see what kind of awesome strength and a harshness of 'character' it takes for even God to deal with such things? It must be the hardest thing our Father who is Love, has to experience........watching those He loves performing as He knew they would and knowing He must let them suffer so.

I honestly think I would have just wanted to learn what I could learn from God minus the evil He needed to have visited upon us but He wants me to learn and be so much more so I am not complaining, I am just making observations that I believe God is honoring.

I never forget the cross, my friend, never. Can you imagine doing what even Abraham almost did with his son, much less what God did with Jesus? Can you imagine taking your son (if you have one) and torture and kill him for any reason? You would need to be one harsh individual even if you also were the most loving guy around.

To even think up such sorrow and pain to usher in some form of higher goodness takes an imagination that is way beyond me.
cp

BServ,

Go Judy and go God!

Thanks for the youtube link. That song describes God at one His harshest moments in our history, but again He does what He must and, in the case of evil, no more and no less.

Oh, to let such evil even exist, much less continue takes a great God indeed. Tough love doesn't even begin to describe it.

cp

Claypot,
It's hard to express without a parable.
What you are still seeing,
is the front, but from the other side.
On the Spirit side (even the other side)
things are the fruit of mans worship.
From torment and tears through the generations — Father produces Sons.

The rat struggles in the trap, however vainly, because she knows there is something better.  Hope masters the life.  What is not brings to naught what is.

I know the door into perfect everything has been opened by Jesus and no man can shut it.  It is with patience I wait the time appointed of the Father.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Php 3:10-11, AV)

The solitary He places into families, joined in clusters as it hath pleased Him.  "...the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." (Ja 5:7, AV)  "Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes." (SS 2:15, AV)  Kept to be trampled.  In darkness stored until the feast.  Healed to be offered up.  Sent to be lifted up in the death he should die to draw all unto Himself.  The price Christ paid must be spent to the last farthing.

"Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost." (Jn 6:12, AV)

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:04:31 AM
Claypot,
It's hard to express without a parable.
What you are still seeing,
is the front, but from the other side.
On the Spirit side (even the other side)
things are the fruit of mans worship.
From torment and tears through the generations — Father produces Sons.

I hope I see something of the 'back' too BServ.

I do see the production of Sons. I see all this beauty and anguish as a mysterious and perfect mosaic.

All I am speaking of here in this thread is what is 'in' God that He could even think up creatures and a whole creation with such evil in it.

BServ, you do believe that it is our Father in Heaven who 'thought' up what we are experiencing now in the flesh, don't you?

God made man with the ability to sin in horrible ways and then allowed him to do it. Man is only doing what he is made able to do by his Creator, no more and no less. Whether God wanted man to sin or not is not at all my point here. My point is that God knew man would sin. God gave man the ability to exercise a carnal mind if so chosen. God knew man would so choose.

Where did it come from in God to 'think up' such a creature as man who could think up such atrocities as rape, torture, meanness and so on. If man can think it up and perform it then the ability and ideas came from somewhere first.

Again BServ, I am not arguing or saying God is at all wrong here. I am not saying I don't see the spiritual perfected side of all of Gods doings. All we are going through is needful for God to fulfill His desires and His desires for us and all creation is perfection.

What I am saying is God has got to have some very strong 'harshness' within His make-up for such grotesque evil to even rear its ugly head. This evil did not just pop into existence on its own apart from any foreknowledge of God.

IMO God thought His plan through, every detail, every possible scenario. God played these scenarios over and over in His very being before allowing any reality to take place. IMO He saw the rapes and murders and all the harsh reality and He decided to let it happen anyway!

What kind of God are dealing with here?

I'll tell you what I think. I think a perfect God who loves and loves and loves yet is very harsh in His strength and wisdom. We are dealing with no wimp here. We can only think up what is given to us in the first place and all comes from God ultimately.

cp

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

--Gen 3


The serpent, like all good liars, told some truth in his lie to Eve.

....ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

That's the truth.  Like gods, like God, we know good and evil.

No other sensient being on earth knows good and evil as man does.  My dog knows, 'good boy,'  but this is no sophisticated moral imperative.  He wants to please me, that's all.  He would bite the post man if I trained him to do so.

But, God's intent was to make man in his likeness and image, and Adam was the first god-Man, God's man on earth.

Like God, we can choose to do good or evil, because we know the difference.

The most evil men in history have been the greatest benefactors as well.  They feel that they must balance good and evil to satisfy their satanic belief systems.

But, there can be no balance of good and evil, only righteousness or death.



Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2009, 05:25:08 PM
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

--Gen 3


The serpent, like all good liars, told some truth in his lie to Eve.

....ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

That's the truth.  Like gods, like God, we know good and evil.

No other sensient being on earth knows good and evil as man does.  My dog knows, 'good boy,'  but this is no sophisticated moral imperative.  He wants to please me, that's all.  He would bite the post man if I trained him to do so.

But, God's intent was to make man in his likeness and image, and Adam was the first god-Man, God's man on earth.

Like God, we can choose to do good or evil, because we know the difference.

The most evil men in history have been the greatest benefactors as well.  They feel that they must balance good and evil to satisfy their satanic belief systems.

But, there can be no balance of good and evil, only righteousness or death.


Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Hey Molly, I'm not trackin ya. What does what you say have to do with my comments on this thread? I'm sure it's just me but I'm not sure how what you say fits.

Who 'thought up' man?

Who 'thought up' the serpent?

cp

Because I think you are looking at a little slice of creation, an unfinished business, and asking why is it like this?

How can we know good and evil if there is no good and evil and no choice?

How can we be what he is making us,  like gods, if we don't know good and evil?

God is making righteous men in what is, apparently, the only way to make righteous men.

So what looks harsh to us in the interim is a process leading to a better place.

God rested on the seventh day of creation.  It didn't say he stopped.



2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Ya know Claypot,
I see it like this.
God thought of making His creature like Himself.
The creature, eating of the tree of choice now if capable of producing great horror and great beauty.
But it can not produce life.
It's all part of the creative process we are going through.

Hey Molly,
funny thing,
we were typing just about the same thing at the same time!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:10:54 PM
Hey Molly,
funny thing,
we were typing just about the same thing at the same time!

Two witnesses! :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2009, 05:57:04 PM
Because I think you are looking at a little slice of creation, an unfinished business, and asking why is it like this?

How can we know good and evil if there is no good and evil and no choice?

How can we be what he is making us,  like gods, if we don't know good and evil?

God is making righteous men in what is, apparently, the only way to make righteous men.

So what looks harsh to us in the interim is a process leading to a better place.

God rested on the seventh day of creation.  It didn't say he stopped.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am showing my ineptness again in trying to communicate something. Forgive me.

I am not asking at all why things are like they are. I am not looking a little slice of creation at all.

I am just commenting on the fact that God has to be awesomely harsh to create such harshness. I think He is perfect in His harshness but harsh none the less. Read my writings. I am not questioning God at all. I know we need the experience of good and evil or God would not have 'thought' it up and introduced us to it.

What looks to us as harsh is harsh isn't it? Isn't rape, murder, crucifixions and so on, harsh? Where did these possibilities come from? You might say the mind of man and you'd be right but where did the mind of man and its possibilities come from?

Man could not even come up with such thoughts if the brain were not made in such a way as to entertain them.

And the fact that God knew man would take on a carnal mindset and think perverse thoughts and act out these thoughts................and the fact that God not only knew man would do this but that God allowed this all to happen seems to say to me that within God harshness exists.

God resting on the seventh day and God ceasing from certain works is the same to me so I cannot agree that resting isn't implying that He did not stop. I think God will cease to allow sin and thoughts of sin to be intertwined with His creation at some point but until He stops 'thinking' about them man will not be able to stop thinking about them.

Molly, wouldn't you agree that the only way for evil to exist is by God allowing it and for Him to allow it must mean He has entertained the thought of it all along?

God's harshness may look like evil but it is only love in action! Gods 'love' is more harsh than any evil IMO. It is stronger than any evil and perfectly good and right. Rapes and murders and the like all must come from the mind of God ultimately and be useful for His ultimate purposes.

The mind of man thinks up evils and God made the mind of man in all its weaknesses and strengths.

cp

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:07:50 PM
Ya know Claypot,
I see it like this.
God thought of making His creature like Himself.
The creature, eating of the tree of choice now if capable of producing great horror and great beauty.
But it can not produce life.
It's all part of the creative process we are going through.

Hey BServ,

You and Molly sure are good witnesses for our Lord. I am honored to know you both.

I like your words. You say God thought.....................

Isn't it amazing to even think that God thinks?

The creature ate of the tree of choice but the creature can only choose what is set before it, can't it? I mean the creature could have been only given a choice between something good and something good but it was given a choice of good or evil, obedience or disobedience right?

Who gave these choices to the creature? Where did the possibility of these choices originate from? Who thought up these choices for the creature to entertain?

I am suggesting the only answer can be, from the mind of God Himself.

cp

Hi Claypot,
I understand you.
What seems and is harsh is the product of Good and Evil.
It is the evil side of the tree.
It's just part of the result.
Part of the plan.
Horrible to look at but a reality.
If the Lord laid this upon you heart, maybe He has the full answer you're looking for.
You may not find it here.
There are some mysteries in God that he reveals as present truth.

BTW — I like you  too.

QuoteMan could not even come up with such thoughts if the brain were not made in such a way as to entertain them.

Yes, he has made our brain in such a way that we are able to know good and evil. No other brain on earth compares to man's brain, with our neocortex, fold upon fold of brain tissue to process complicated thinking.

He is making us like Him.  And, He, being God, knows good and evil, so we must too.

But, he has not left us alone in this process.  He is right there talking to us all the time, but we are most often not listening!  This is where our autonomy comes into play. This does not contradict God's omniscience .  In God's created world of probabilities, even we can surprise God.

What have you done?
--Gen 4

This means that we can think up evil that even God has not thought of--things that never entered his mind, as He tells us Himself.

He has created a complicated being (us).  This does not mean he doesn't give us enough rope to hang ourselves. He does.  Unfortunately, evil is a bottomless pit, and there is no end to the depths to which it will go. But, it is a necessary part of creation.  You can't get there without it.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Quote from: claypot on June 14, 2009, 06:27:25 PM

I am just commenting on the fact that God has to be awesomely harsh to create such harshness.

One real life example is a butterfly that emerges from the cocoon.  If we see the struggle of the butterfly and have compassion through our emotions and rip open the cocoon for it, most likely it will die.   It is it's struggle during the process that gives it the strength to emerge and live beautifully.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 14, 2009, 06:53:56 PM

Quote from: claypot on June 14, 2009, 06:27:25 PM

I am just commenting on the fact that God has to be awesomely harsh to create such harshness.

One real life example is a butterfly that emerges from the cocoon.  If we see the struggle of the butterfly and have compassion through our emotions and rip open the cocoon for it, most likely it will die.   It is it's struggle during the process that gives it the strength to emerge and live beautifully.

Yes, and before the butterfly emerges, he is just a disgusting 'worm.'

The same word is used for the butterfly as is used for us in Christ--metamorphosis.


be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

--Romans 12


"transformed"


G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.

 :2c:

   God said ,let us make man in our image...

   God is a spirit,God is LOVE

   compassion and LONG_SUFFERING is a fruit of the HOLY

   SPIRIT.

   during all their afflictions He was with them......


    the suffering of evil is like manure to the roots of the tree of

  life...it cause a growth spurt towards the heavens in producing

  fruit of compassion and long-suffering and mercy.In causes

  righteous indignation against lawless,loveless acts.The man

with the inkhorn was told to 'mark' those who groan and moan

over all the detestable things done.

    God's mercy to HIS CREATION IS MANIFOLD,HE PROMISES

  NO MORE TEARS,NOR OUTCRYS NOR PAIN.....we look and

HOPE AND ENDURE WITH LONG_SUFFERING THESE PROMISES.


   I have at times,due to being so overwhelmed by it..turned

away from what is before my eyes.God can not look upon evil


  who knows the sufferings of God......if it was NOT GOOD for

  the man to be alone...we KNOW..it was NOT GOOD FOR

GOD TO BE ALONE BEFORE HE CREATED...If the woman

was created for the man's sake..we KNOW THE CREATION

WAS CREATED FOR THE SAKE OF GOD.....


   AND IF BEING ALONE WAS NOT GOOD....THEN CREATION

  WAS GOOD...but there is good and there is perfect....

   and it is through the suffering of evil that we are perfected..


   AND THAT PERFECTION IS IN THE PERFECT WILL OF THE

FATHER AND IT IS THE TREE OF LIFE

I'm not really looking for any answers, I'm just making an observation. The observation being that God has thought everything that is, up. He had to. Even the evil. God thought it all up and is thinking it all up. One day He will stop thinking of evil and it will cease as it ceases in the mind of God. For now it is necessary.

Molly, our brain is made to know good and evil and I believe we will benefit from such knowledge or God would not have it so but my point is still being missed I think. My point is that all thought and everything that is is the result of God thinking/speaking it into being.

Man could not even think up rape or crucifixion if these things were not introduced to his brain. I think of Eve and the serpent. Eve was minding her own business until the serpent starting speaking to her to do things contrary to Gods wishes.

So Eve got thoughts from the serpent but from where did the serpent get the ability to think, much less think certain thoughts? I have to believe from God Himself.

Personally I think the serpent is our carnal mind so the question for me really is where did Eve get her carnal thoughts from or better yet, where do all people get their carnal thoughts from? I think the ability to think carnal thoughts or 'the mind of Christ' thoughts comes from God. The thoughts themselves are products of seemingly infinite things from the mind of God Himself.

God made man with the ability to think vile thoughts and then gave man the ability to and put him in a world where he can act out these thoughts. God thought all this up!

We are products of Gods mind!

cp

There's a program for psychiatrists in England where they have to undergo the various therapies themselves, Electro Convulsive Therapy, drugs, behavioral modification, whatever.

Reform, are you saying I need a psychiatrist?  :happy3:

CP,

    He thought up what WAS THE OPPOSITE OF HIM...to serve as

  the negative 'evil'. And HE TOTALLY REJECTS THAT EVIL AS

NOT OF HIMSELF. ALWAYS HAS,always will


     We need to do the same[I do only what I obeserve my

Father doing]  Paul did that...when he said 'therefore if I do

that which I do not desire to do,it is no longer I,but the sin in

my flesh that does it". Now,we are His flesh,created for His

spirit to dwell in....and He bears our sins...but the time comes

of His return APART FROM SIN...and as sons and

daughters..the time comes for our return..APART FROM SIN


  SEPERATED LIKE SHEEP FROM GOAT


   the sin that entered our flesh through disobediance[that

which is not of God's nature]

caused it to die and return to the earth...but the spirit[that

which is of God's nature] will return to God

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:37:19 PM
Hi Claypot,
I understand you.
What seems and is harsh is the product of Good and Evil.
It is the evil side of the tree.
It's just part of the result.
Part of the plan.
Horrible to look at but a reality.
If the Lord laid this upon you heart, maybe He has the full answer you're looking for.
You may not find it here.
There are some mysteries in God that he reveals as present truth.

Just as DARK is to LIGHT... 

That GOD is LIGHT, says that it is an extremely DIFFICULT exercise for Him, to display what is OPPOSITE of Himself (who and what HE IS), and then reveal to His Children by EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE -- that TRUTH...

And the difficulty for both, only serves to GLORIFY the LIGHT that He, forever, ...IS...

Quote from: willieH on June 14, 2009, 11:42:40 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 14, 2009, 06:37:19 PM
Hi Claypot,
I understand you.
What seems and is harsh is the product of Good and Evil.
It is the evil side of the tree.
It's just part of the result.
Part of the plan.
Horrible to look at but a reality.
If the Lord laid this upon you heart, maybe He has the full answer you're looking for.
You may not find it here.
There are some mysteries in God that he reveals as present truth.

Just as DARK is to LIGHT... 

That GOD is LIGHT, says that it is an extremely exercise for Him, to display what is OPPOSITE of Himself (who and what HE IS), and then reveal to His Children by EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE -- that TRUTH...

And the difficulty for both, only serves to GLORIFY the LIGHT that He, forever, ...IS...

...willieH  :happygrin:

Not quite sure what you are trying to communicate here Willie but let me comment.

I see Gods plan in its totality as light. I see God as nothing but light and goodness.

With saying all that I see that what we may consider to be dark, like how harsh God is, is really light that we don't understand. I think God worked out this plan of His of good and evil in His 'heart and mind' long before it ever hit the physical. God went back and forth with good and evil, working with each to get His desired end.

Willie, do you see evil as a thought of God? Where else could it have come from?

Willie, you say it is an extreme exercise to God to display darkness/evil. Are you agreeing that darkness can only exist because God thought it up?

cp

Sheila, you wrote.........

He thought up what WAS THE OPPOSITE OF HIM...to serve as

  the negative 'evil'. And HE TOTALLY REJECTS THAT EVIL AS

NOT OF HIMSELF. ALWAYS HAS,always will

Hey Sheila,

Are you saying God thought up evil and then rejected it as not of His thoughts? Hmmmmmmmmm. Not sure what you mean.

I do think that at some point God will cease to think of evil and it will be gone but until then, evil will exist.

cp

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on June 14, 2009, 11:42:40 PM
Just as DARK is to LIGHT... 

That GOD is LIGHT, says that it is an extremely DIFFICULT exercise for Him, to display what is OPPOSITE of Himself (who and what HE IS), and then reveal to His Children by EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE -- that TRUTH...

And the difficulty for both, only serves to GLORIFY the LIGHT that He, forever, ...IS...

...willieH  :happygrin:

Quote from: claypot on June 15, 2009, 12:34:13 AMNot quite sure what you are trying to communicate here Willie but let me comment.

I see Gods plan in its totality as light. I see God as nothing but light and goodness.

ALL things that are within Him, contribute to exposing WHO and WHAT He is... DARKNESS is that which assists in DISPLAYING ...WHAT... "light" is...  :dontknow:

If there were no DARKNESS, how would you KNOW you were in the LIGHT?

Quote from: claypot on June 15, 2009, 12:34:13 AMWith saying all that I see that what we may consider to be dark, like how harsh God is, is really light that we don't understand. I think God worked out this plan of His of good and evil in His 'heart and mind' long before it ever hit the physical. God went back and forth with good and evil, working with each to get His desired end.

DARKNESS is the defining (opposing) element of LIGHT therefore, it is a necessary part of LIGHT... just as UP is a necessary "part" of DOWN and vice versa... One does NOT exist, without the other...

GOD never changes, neither does His WORD... In His WORD (of which we have a miniscule portion)... is found, ALL KNOWLEDGE...

Included in this DIVINE KNOWLEDGE is Good and Evil...  God does not move forward or backward... as we observe.  He ...IS... unchanging... ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY the same...

He did not have to "work out the possibilities" before creating the Physical realm.  The physical realm was DECLARED, ...END FIRST -- then Beginning... It was DECLARED according to the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE, ...OF the WORD, IN the WORD -- Isaiah 46:10-11

His DIVINE Knowledge which contains G & E... and it is NOT a process as you seem to believe above... (correct me if I percieve you incorrectly  :mblush:)

His DIVINE Knowledge NEVER changes... It ...IS...  Good and Evil are not subjects in the realm of ETERNITY, they are subjects in the realm of TIME... which DOES change, and which DOES move "back & forth"... between the two...

Good and Evil were not "worked out" by God before He decided to reveal them to His Children... These are the DEFINITION of who and what He IS...

The displays that occur in TIME, which in this thread, you observe as "HARSH", are the active and REAL demonstration of the OPPOSITE of the TRUE state of YHVH and His WORD... which are GRACEFUL, LOVE and WONDROUS...

The HARSH results of EVIL, of which we all to one degree or another, partake... are those elements of definition which by their UNGRACIOUSNESS, HATRED and HORROR... display the GLORY of who and what GOD IS...

Quote from: claypot on June 15, 2009, 12:34:13 AMWillie, do you see evil as a thought of God? Where else could it have come from?

EVIL is the extreme TEMPORAL (time) example which defines GOOD (forever)...

EVIL is that which GOD created to display who and what He IS... that His GLORY might be KNOWN and APPRECIATED to the core and fiber of every living thing...

Quote from: claypot on June 15, 2009, 12:34:13 AMWillie, you say it is an extreme [difficult] exercise to God to display darkness/evil. Are you agreeing that darkness can only exist because God thought it up?

cp

Sorry for the misunderstanding, cp...  :mblush: (I left out the word DIFFICULT)... it is not an EXTREME EXERCISE... it is an "extremely DIFFICULT exercise for Him to display the OPPOSITE of Himself..."

God does not "think things up" bro... ALL that can possibly EXIST are ALWAYS within His KNOWLEDGE, NOW... to say He "thinks things up" is to infer that He has things to "LEARN"...  Which would mean that His KNOWLEDGE is NOT PERFECT or COMPLETE...

Things which He has "yet" to discover... There is nothing outside His knowledge... It is COMPLETE... and that which is COMPLETE is PERFECT, and is FOREVER...

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:14:29 AM
EVIL is that which GOD created to display who and what He IS... that His GLORY might be KNOWN and APPRECIATED to the core and fiber of every living thing...

I think what people have difficulty with is if nothing is "impossible" with God then that implies God did NOT need to create evil to make his glory known and appreciated. That then suggests a less than righteous being for doing it that way.

Willie, I hear ya on God thinking and working things out. I do realize God is beyond thinking yet one must use human terms sometimes to make a point. God doesn't have wings either but that didn't stop the Psalmist from talking about Gods wings.......like God is some kind of chicken!

Thanks for the words. Good as always.

I have much to think about.

As God thinks/breathes/moves or whatever, so we are.

Willie, when God is All in all do you see a need to learn via opposites?

cp

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Words are tricky little buggers... so hope mine flow out to you as they are within...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 02:20:34 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:14:29 AM
EVIL is that which GOD created to display who and what He IS... that His GLORY might be KNOWN and APPRECIATED to the core and fiber of every living thing...

I think what people have difficulty with is if nothing is "impossible" with God then that implies God did NOT need to create evil to make his glory known and appreciated. That then suggests a less than righteous being for doing it that way.

IMO... we observe from the finite platform which sees beginning to END... whereas in the ETERNAL perspective, it ALREADY IS... for the END came FIRST in GOD's Declaration of Time... Isaiah 46:10-11  :dontknow:

The "Revelation" of GOOD & EVIL, we are experiencing in TIME (which moves from beginning to end), ...is US being revealed to what has (eternally) ALWAYS BEEN there (from the end to the beginning)...

Just like a painting which the crowd awaits to see in the Gallery... It does not somehow "appear" as the cover is removed... it was sitting there before them, ...just COVERED and veiled from their sight...

The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

...willieH

Quote from: cp... when God is All in all do you see a need to learn via opposites?

well, you didn't ask me but I will say no, because the Son will hand everything over to the Father at that point.   He is the captain of the LORD's army, and his job in that position will be over.  Don't you know we are fighting a war right now?


Joshua 5:15
And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

[the captain of the LORD's] "host"

H6635
צבאה    צבא
tsâbâ' tsebâ'âh
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).

Amen, Molly, Amen.

cp

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Words are tricky little buggers... so hope mine flow out to you as they are within...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 02:20:34 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:14:29 AM
EVIL is that which GOD created to display who and what He IS... that His GLORY might be KNOWN and APPRECIATED to the core and fiber of every living thing...

I think what people have difficulty with is if nothing is "impossible" with God then that implies God did NOT need to create evil to make his glory known and appreciated. That then suggests a less than righteous being for doing it that way.

IMO... we observe from the finite platform which sees beginning to END... whereas in the ETERNAL perspective, it ALREADY IS... for the END came FIRST in GOD's Declaration of Time... Isaiah 46:10-11  :dontknow:

Yes we do observe from that perspective, but none of that prevents us from some understandings.   Something being eternal does not mean there are not certain limits.   What I see is human beings becoming irrational trying to deny the factors of changing what they believe when faced with not being able to support what they believe any longer.

This has nothing to do with slick arguments or debates but just the simplicity of why a being of Love created us and why somehow that love is from a being that puts us through this mess if he could of done otherwise.

If we "must" learn this way, then even God cannot change it.   If he can change it, then we did not have to learn this way.    So the question is if a persons faith can handle believing in the reality of the correct perspective of a loving being.


None of the tough question that confront our faith have anything to do with eternity or our perspective of it.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer! :friendstu:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:17:12 AMYes we do observe from that perspective, but none of that prevents us from some understandings.   Something being eternal does not mean there are not certain limits.

I see what you are saying, but also, GOD sets what His "limits" are... No one "COUNSELS" Him, and makes suggestion to Him as to what ANYTHING is, ...or concerning what method that He should go about in order to accomplish His Purpose...

The notion of ETERNAL means to me, that whatever IS Eternal, does not need change for it is already COMPLETE... If something is PERFECT [complete], what can be done to ENHANCE it?  If I were to get 100 correct answers on a 100 T/F test, ...what could I have done to exceed my effort?  :dontknow: -- NOTHING!

The NATURAL has limitations which the SPIRITUAL does not find...

In other words, there is no such thing as giving a "110% effort"... For a COMPLETE effort is found in "100%" ...and no subsequent amount is available to "give", and is therefore FALLACY... as observed in the NATURAL...

If something is found to be 100% then that is it... there is no more... You can spend NO MORE that ALL your money... (unless you use credit cards which are NOT "your money"  :laughing7:)

Here is a FAITH example that confronts ALL of us from time to time, and brings the ETERNAL into affecting a FINITE + "faith" situation:

John 6:1-13 -- In this story of the "5 Loaves & 2 fishes" miracle... 100% of the FINITE (natural observation of the) amount of food, was FIVE LOAVES and TWO FISHES... however... that obviously was NOT the "amount" available to the INFINITE (spiritual observation of the same "5 loaves & 2 fishes")...

We observe the "5 loaves & 2 fishes" with FINITE eyes, and see enough to feed a FEW... whereas JESUS, looking through INFINITE eyes, commands that the SPIRITUAL and INFINITE potential of the "5 loaves and 2 fishes" be revealed, ...via FAITH within the blessing of the INFINITE... which not only fed the MULTITUDE (at least 5,000), but had 12 baskets of "leftovers"  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:17:12 AMWhat I see is human beings becoming irrational trying to deny the factors of changing what they believe when faced with not being able to support what they believe any longer.

Yes, at times, everyone is LIMITED by their belief/knowledge, but when presented with "knowledge" which demotes their own by exceeding it, ...then PRIDE can "kick in" and inhibit ones ability to change, and either becomes the LIMITATION, or is discarded by HUMILITY...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:17:12 AMThis has nothing to do with slick arguments or debates but just the simplicity of why a being of Love created us and why somehow that love is from a being that puts us through this mess if he could of done otherwise.

If we "must" learn this way, then even God cannot change it.   If he can change it, then we did not have to learn this way.    So the question is if a persons faith can handle believing in the reality of the correct perspective of a loving being.

It is our FINITE assumption which, because of the uncomfortable position that adversity presents to us... creates a scenario that "this mess" could've been avoided.  OR that God "could've done otherwise"... 

He sets ALL THINGS in place to BE as HE deems they are... and no [finite] assumptions of ours which question that [infinite] procedure are allowed -- Rom 9:20 --

When we do NOT KNOW the COMPLETE method and PURPOSE of the Creator in His [infinitely] Creative activities...

I could say to a car manufacturer, that had he designed a wider "wheel base" it  would've made the car I bought from him, "corner" better,  ...but what I do not KNOW about his design of the car (though my assumption could be true), designing it according to "my thinking"  would've INHIBITED the car in its COMPLETE performance, elsewhere...  Making it LESS efficient in other areas, and detering from the TOTAL performance of the car.  Taking away positives which I enjoy in the performance of the car (but have not considered would be lessened by my "suggestion" of a "wider wheel base")...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 06:17:12 AMNone of the tough questions that confront our faith have anything to do with eternity or our perspective of it.

Now I'm not completely sure what you are saying here...  :JCThink:

How can we make an absolute statement such as "NONE of the tough questions that confront our faith have anything to do with eternity or our perspective of it"?

Though you could be correct, I'm not sure that you can prove this statement to be true... :gamer:

To me it sounds something like saying -- "you can't get there from here" --  :laughing7: -- (just yankin' yer chain, bro  :laugh:)

willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 12:08:10 AM
willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

Sometimes I think we get 'tongue tied' when we think of God as an individual. He is the All. He is like the sunshine or the moon light. He is all truth and all life. He is not a seperate individual Being.

Willie, you say God sets what His limits are and no one counsels Him. I fully agree. Life and all included in it keeps rolling on and on and on. Tornados and all weather, birth and death of plants animals and people keep happening no matter what we do or believe and so on. This is God. 'He' is the All.

God is the 100%. He is the ocean and the waves, He is all of us and all of creation.

God loves me, I say. What I am saying is all of life loves me, I am birthed from life.

God is light we say and rightfully so. All light is God.

We talk of predestination and election and crucifixions. These are all within the All, somewhere.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Jesus shows us how the All is in each element of creation, especially people.

Still, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

God is not bound by time or space.

'He' is an intimate being. He is intimate with anything and everything that lives for He is life.

Can God create a rock He can't lift, is a question asked by those who perceive God as an individual Being like us. Thus the confusion.

God is eternal because He is the All. All has no time boundaries, only created things do. All is all.

Just some random thoughts.

cp

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2009, 02:17:03 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 12:08:10 AM
willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

Hey Paul,

There is no limit to life. It goes on and on and on no matter what we believe.

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it? God is the rock. It is not God and the rock, it is God, the All, so the question is a non-question. There is no size with the All so to make a rock so BIG is another comment from a finite mind (carnal mind) because the question is attempting to put a size on the All which is impossible.

Even the word we use to 'name' the All is misleading. God. God makes it seem like 'He' is a Being somewhere sitting on a throne or something. We have used the title too much I think. We have limited God in our hearts and minds slowly but surely.

There is no limit to the All. It goes on and on and on. People come and people go and beliefs come and beliefs go yet the All goes on and on and on and is absolutely no respecter of persons. It keeps moving and unless we align ourselves with 'Him' we will be left in 'His' wake.

cp

                                                                              WOW!
                                                                             Claypot

                                                                         That was good.

I humbly thank you and say that where it came from is a mystery to me.

cp

No mystery to me.
That is Our Father.
That is Our Lord and Savior.
Get used to it.
There is a mighty move of the Spirit,
for those that love the Lord.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 16, 2009, 02:53:13 AM
No mystery to me.
That is Our Father.
That is Our Lord and Savior.
Get used to it.
There is a mighty move of the Spirit,
for those that love the Lord.

With the utmost respect BServ, I want to say how the term 'Father' especially sends our minds to a individual father or grandfather figure which leads us astray and into senseless discussions about God, the All.

Not that we shouldn't use the term, we should but we should be very careful not to let it limit our minds about who and what God is.

The title 'Lord' can make us centralize the Infinite in our minds. We think of Lord and we see a individual Being on a throne wearing rings and crowns and the like. Not a bad stepping stone but if dwelled on too much can lead astray and into quagmires of endless reasonings.

I know we do sometimes see God as invisible and as only spirit and so on but when we 'need' it we tend to see God as a nice fluffy gentleman, grandfather figure. I think the latter tends to stick in our minds and that's why all the arguments through all the ages ad-infinitum.

cp

I understand.
I've been to the Vatican.
I'm on your page Claypot.
We are brothers in Christ.

Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2009, 02:28:50 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2009, 02:17:03 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 12:08:10 AM
willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

Hey Paul,

There is no limit to life. It goes on and on and on no matter what we believe.

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it? God is the rock. It is not God and the rock, it is God, the All, so the question is a non-question. There is no size with the All so to make a rock so BIG is another comment from a finite mind (carnal mind) because the question is attempting to put a size on the All which is impossible.

Even the word we use to 'name' the All is misleading. God. God makes it seem like 'He' is a Being somewhere sitting on a throne or something. We have used the title too much I think. We have limited God in our hearts and minds slowly but surely.

There is no limit to the All. It goes on and on and on. People come and people go and beliefs come and beliefs go yet the All goes on and on and on and is absolutely no respecter of persons. It keeps moving and unless we align ourselves with 'Him' we will be left in 'His' wake.

cp

There is no limit to life, but that doesn't change the struggle many have with Gods character.

Many religious perspectives (this is not directed at you) rely on the aspect of scripture that says Gods ways are not our ways and his thoughts not our thoughts to assert things.

However, the logical outcome to that assertion is that no one can understand any of it at all.  I know of no one who will accept that we cannot understand anything.  There may be people who understand that they can be wrong, but while they are speaking and sharing, they have the belief that they can understand something.

The things I am pointing out do not reduce God to our level, it helps show that God allows us to understand some things.

From our perspective God is limitless in comparison, however, that assertion is short lived when we enter into the area of Gods Character and that is what I hope to help people see that struggle with it.

I do not struggle with it at all, lest any one mistake my posts for my searching.  Gods character is rock solid and cannot be changed to allow me to doubt it.   In that reason God cannot change what we go through and that limit to our mind is actually glorious.  God could not do it any other way, so he is not a sadistic monster, he cannot open the cocoon lest he prevent us from reaching glory, but is he limitless when it comes to understanding that to create us meant we must struggle to be free of the cocoon?   To our minds that is a limit but we have to place it within Gods Character.

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Why God is still righteous is because knowing what must be, he gives us the gift that he KNOWS everyone will receive.

Quote from: cpStill, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2009, 03:55:24 AM

Quote from: cpStill, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

Yes CP,
it does sound new-age-ish.
I still prefer what our Lord Jesus Christ used: Father.

Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2009, 04:10:24 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2009, 03:55:24 AM

Quote from: cpStill, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

Nothing wrong with new age beliefs,  they are no more self centered than your average believer.   :happy3:

Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 11:53:07 PM
The notion of ETERNAL means to me, that whatever IS Eternal, does not need change for it is already COMPLETE... If something is PERFECT [complete], what can be done to ENHANCE it?  If I were to get 100 correct answers on a 100 T/F test, ...what could I have done to exceed my effort?  :dontknow: -- NOTHING!

The issue, really is not about changing or improving, it is actually dealing with the reality of evil and suffering that we experience whether we believe in  God or the flying spagetti monster.   You can believe in either one and it changes nothing.   

There are spiritualists that demand that evil is all an illusion and perhaps it is,  that doesn't change that children get raped and murder takes place.  It is a denial of their own circumstances, as they try to teach such a thing, they themselves are in this planet feeling and experiencing this "illusion".

This for the most part comes down to being able to answer for the beliefs we have to those who struggle and seek.

Whether it is already complete is not the issue, it is if what we believe in is of sound character.   I do not believe that a "limitless" God has a strong and righteous character to declare suffering if suffering was not necessary.   

What in terms of limitless is righteous if he declared suffering when in his limitless power suffering was not required?

1Pt 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear,



Gods completion of his goal did take us into account, since we are the inheritors of his plan, then he planned for all our choices.  his foreknowledge, taking into account how things must be, did react to us, but in righteousness and wisdom so that we could never remain hopeless forever.

He does form the clay, KNOWING,  that CLAY can only be formed properly one way, but that within that limit of reality,  forming clay to limitless variations of beauty.

Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2009, 04:28:20 AM
Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

Hi cp,

In how I see things "watch us" was a poor choice of words.

I believe that God is existance.  He is indeed the essence of what "is".   

It is when we work out Gods character to be strong and trustworthy that we find peace in the valleys.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2009, 05:12:57 AM

Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2009, 04:28:20 AM
Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

Hi cp,

In how I see things "watch us" was a poor choice of words.

I believe that God is existance.  He is indeed the essence of what "is".   

It is when we work out Gods character to be strong and trustworthy that we find peace in the valleys.

Wowzer, that spoke volumes to me, Paul. Thanks. God is existence. That's way cool. That resonates with where I'm at right now. The essence of what is.......no way to say it any better!

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 16, 2009, 04:10:24 AM

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2009, 03:55:24 AM

Quote from: cpStill, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1


Daniel 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Yes Cp,
but differentiate, the fact, that the Lord is not just some vibration "out there."
He is a loving, caring, Creator that wants us to know Him intimately.
Again, as Father.
Dare I say, as our Love.
Who is...The Shulamite Woman, breathtakingly beautiful in her peasant's garb ???

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw ....

--Rev 1



"I turned"

G1994
ἐπιστρέφω
epistrephō
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).



And, being turned,



"I saw"

G1492
εἴδω
eidō
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand,

When I call Him "Father" it makes me think of what I'm supposed to understand myself to be.

Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on June 16, 2009, 08:18:03 AM
Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

Thanks Anne, we're 'hearing' each other and that's good!

cp

I hear ya'all too.
But, the harshness of God — I'm having trouble settling that idea.
For the nature of God is love. Pure Love.
And the tough-love theory I think is all carnal.
We must be just coming short of truth here.
So close yet so far.
Maybe we have it backwards somehow,
but I can't put my finger on it.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 02:42:51 AM
I hear ya'all too.
But, the harshness of God — I'm having trouble settling that idea.
For the nature of God is love. Pure Love.
And the tough-love theory I think is all carnal.
We must be just coming short of truth here.
So close yet so far.
Maybe we have it backwards somehow,
but I can't put my finger on it.

BServ, you gotta admit that for God to create knowing rapes and tortures and beheadings and medical experiments and so on are going to be done by one human upon other humans that God had to have a toughness and a harshness that we can't even comprehend. God created knowing these things would occur and He went ahead anyway. This is harsh, anyway you look at it.

Again I'm not saying it is harsh in an evil sense or sinful sense. No by no means. God is light and good so all the rapes and such, when all is said and done have to be part of the tapestry that is perfect.

cp

I do, I do, I do

I do, I do, I do

Just sumthin' inside of me says there is love in it all.
Sheer love.
                Pure love.
                              Overwhelming love.
                                                          Perhaps, He gives those in that tribulation a grace that we do not perceive.
                A peace that goes beyond comprehension.
                                                          A separate, enduring unity with Himself.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 04:34:37 AM
I do, I do, I do

I do, I do, I do

Just sumthin' inside of me says there is love in it all.
Sheer love.
                Pure love.
                              Overwhelming love.
                                                          Perhaps, He gives those in that tribulation a grace that we do not perceive.
                A peace that goes beyond comprehension.
                                                          A separate, enduring unity with Himself.

That's so good to hear BServ. I have always hoped that there is 'grace that we do not perceive' in all the evil. I think you got something there and it is good for the soul, mine anyway.

Thanks.

cp

One of the things neglected so far is the fact that though there was a Noah who went through the flood, Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him that he should not see death.  While many prophets for their witness were slain by the religous, Elijah went up in a whirlwind.  The fact is Paul was in a race, forgetting what was behind and reaching forward for all he was worth so if by any means possible he might be summoned into a higher dimension in Christ.  He knew it was by faith.  "9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:  10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Php 3:9-11, AV)  There is a door that no human can shut, a door that Jesus opened into such victory that we may rise above all sin, sickness, sorrow, pain and death.  "It has been done," is Jesus' word from the throne.

Though few there be that enter the life gate, it does not mean it is not reachable.  Those who are called the Overcomers defeat every sin, bondage, darkness, sickness, lack and death.  It is all in the presence of Him and our knowing Him.  Those who are brought to that place will set all creation free.  It is our person to person intimacy with God that brings about the change in us.  The call to come up higher is God's blessing to bestow.

Psalm 65:1-4 (AV)...
1 Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

10 That I may know him...

--Php3

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

guess we are amidst the proverbial "tug-O-war" eh?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 16, 2009, 02:17:03 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 12:08:10 AM
willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 15, 2009, 05:50:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on June 15, 2009, 02:51:02 AM
The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

There is a difference between BEING LIMITED and SETTING LIMITS...  

If GOD created the ROCK not to be lifted then it is HIS PURPOSE that limits the ROCK from being lifted...

Just as He created WHITE to be WHITE... and not BLACK... White is not limited by Black, it is set in its scenario to be what it is by GOD...

GOD is not limited by establishing WHITE to be WHITE... He has set it up to be part of HIS PURPOSE in Creation... and WHITE is pivotal to BLACK, ...not "limited" when compared to BLACK... because it is white...  :wacko2: :heat:

If GOD so chose to do so, ...He could make WHITE to be other than just white... for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He is NOT limited by His Creation... His Creation is LIMITED by HIM...  :dontknow:

This is a chicken & egg type of "arguement", and you are welcome to see it however you might... I believe GOD can make something -- anything, to BE what it is, and He does not LIMIT Himself in that creative effort... He purposes everything in its place and order...  :declare:

"Limitations" are only found within the minds of men which cannot know the complexities and perfect of the mind of God, while in the sinful state...

God cannot be tempted?  Because He is limited? OR, because in His wisdom, HE has set this "limitation" for the good of all... including Himself.

He has (had FOREVER), the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... and being ALMIGHTY, He could be as EVIL as He might wish to be, and NO ONE could make so much as a peep about it!   :dontknow:

However... He has set Himself within the "limitation" of GOOD, because HE has decided to do it, and HE has decided it is best, ...and NOT because He is LIMITED by any external or Created thing...

 

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on June 16, 2009, 08:18:03 AM
Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

If we see with spiritual eyes, the fact that these atrocities are among us everyday, the greatness of sufferings this world has seen and will see, is a reflection all the more of how glorious his reconciliation will be. Genocides, slavery, rape, murder, unexpected deaths of loved ones- though they are unbearable for us to even think of at times, let alone go through, how powerful is the glory that awaits? God is so powerful beyond our comprehension, that he can subject us to things beyond our comprehension, to get us to his glory that is beyond our comprehension in this life, but is to come.

Quote from: willieH on June 18, 2009, 09:15:37 AM

There is a difference between BEING LIMITED and SETTING LIMITS...  

If GOD created the ROCK not to be lifted then it is HIS PURPOSE that limits the ROCK from being lifted...

Yes there is a difference between being limited and setting limits, that combined with your answer to the question does not demonstrate limitless. 

Saying God did not lift the rock because he declared it to not be lifted only makes an excuse for God's inability to make a rock that he cannot lift.   

There is a difference in being "unable" to lift it and "choosing" not to.

Quote
If GOD so chose to do so, ...He could make WHITE to be other than just white... for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He is NOT limited by His Creation... His Creation is LIMITED by HIM...  :dontknow:

You have not demonstrated that nothing is impossible, you have only made excuses for the impossible.   If God did not declare the rock to not be lifted then it would be lifted no matter how big it was.   

Quote
This is a chicken & egg type of "arguement", and you are welcome to see it however you might... I believe GOD can make something -- anything, to BE what it is, and He does not LIMIT Himself in that creative effort... He purposes everything in its place and order...  :declare:

The argument has nothing to do with chickens or eggs,  it is a matter of scripture and Gods character. 

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.

This verse is about the nature of God no matter what we can come up with.   What God is, whether there are limits, does not prevent God from being sovereign over all that is possible.  God actually can't make a rock that he could not lift, he really doesn't need an excuse, thats just the way it is,  so what?   

It is not limiting God any more than the reality of what is.       


Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 18, 2009, 04:06:10 PM



Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

Paul, you are asking what I am asking and I ask just to understand God better because I think that is a good thing.

Now to your question which you worded well IMO................

I am thinking lately that this is an experience God is putting Himself through. That sound ridiculous on the surface but God does experience things doesn't He? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. It would be boring to be God if everything just was and there was no learning or no sponineity. Now again, to put God and 'learning' in the same sphere seems blasphemous but maybe you get my drift.

I am trying to say that God is putting Himself through something and we are His conscious agents as it were.

This is so hard to put into words. I will stop here and ask if you get even a glimmer of what I am trying to say or maybe you think I should be stoned!!!

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 05:36:33 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 18, 2009, 04:06:10 PM



Again I'll ask the question,  Of what nature is the character of a limitless being that chooses to put us through the experience of Evil if this being, being limitless, did not have to do so because he could have declared not to do so?

Paul, you are asking what I am asking and I ask just to understand God better because I think that is a good thing.

Now to your question which you worded well IMO................

I am thinking lately that this is an experience God is putting Himself through. That sound ridiculous on the surface but God does experience things doesn't He? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. It would be boring to be God if everything just was and there was no learning or no sponineity. Now again, to put God and 'learning' in the same sphere seems blasphemous but maybe you get my drift.

I am trying to say that God is putting Himself through something and we are His conscious agents as it were.

This is so hard to put into words. I will stop here and ask if you get even a glimmer of what I am trying to say or maybe you think I should be stoned!!!

cp

I would stone you, but I cannot lift the Rock   :laughing7:

I think I understand what your saying.   What people object to as far as limitations are not actually limitations but a reality of what is.

Perhaps to increase as a family there is only one way to do that and God also has to experience what we go through and that is a part of why there is so much security in him. 

Psalm 148:8-9 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.

God tells us that things have to be a certain way.   If we wrongly apply limitless to God then we can rightly question his character for making things a certain way. 


Ro 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading the sake of us with inarticulate groanings.

maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 06:23:57 PM
maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

I like it BServ. Thinking material for sure.

cp

It also applies to God not changing.   Since God is existence and things must be a certain way and that certain way ensures our perfection, then what is perceived by our minds as a "limitation"  is why our journey is glorious, it is not a limitation it is how it is, there is no "changing" it.

When we view this under the model of traditional teaching we will perceive God as separate from us so we will not see that it isn't that God can't change it as a limitation, there is nothing to change in the first place.

When the bible says "all things are possible" that is true, but it is true within what is possible.   If all things are possible as a limitless assertion,  then God can change and we cannot trust his promises.

Sometimes I think this whole human experience is set before us as a vocabulary exercise. In a way like learning a language for something we can't quite comprehend right now. Maybe its just the teacher in me that is equating God to a Great Teacher. But then the cynical part of me wonders why someone has to loose a child, be molested, cheated, etc to learn a lesson. Why couldn't God just download the knowledge? Well, maybe He is and this is that moment.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 06:23:57 PM
maybe this applies:

Hebrews 2:17 (Amplified Bible)

17 So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins.

I think there are other scriptures that speak of Jesus bringing His "human experience" into the Godhead.

It's a great passage

Hb 2:18 For in what He' has suffered, undergoing trial, He is able to help  those who are being tried.

48 I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

--John 6


"bread" [of life]

G740
ἄρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.


The unleavened bread is the Law. It has not yet been raised (airō) by the Holy Spirit.

The Pharisees leaven the bread with man's law.  We are told, Do not eat this leavening.

Later, things will change.   Peter will be so filled with the bread of life--the leavening of God--that when Ananias lies to Peter, he is really lying to the Holy Spirit.


Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

...You have not lied to men but to God."


But, first, we must all go through the wilderness, eating the unleavened bread and the manna (what's this?) of our fathers.


5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

--Numbers 20

willieH: Hi Sarah...  :happy3:

Quote from: Sarah on June 18, 2009, 06:56:38 PM
Sometimes I think this whole human experience is set before us as a vocabulary exercise. In a way like learning a language for something we can't quite comprehend right now. Maybe its just the teacher in me that is equating God to a Great Teacher. But then the cynical part of me wonders why someone has to loose a child, be molested, cheated, etc to learn a lesson. Why couldn't God just download the knowledge? Well, maybe He is and this is that moment.

:first: :mthumbsup: :happyclap: ...VERY INSIGHTFUL thinking, Sarah!

Something like, ...THIS LIFE is like a "GOD produced [eternal] movie" starring JESUS and ALL mankind... displaying the KNOWLEDGE to ALL before ALL...  :JCThink: