How can we get true salvation?

[70sevens]

Hello,

The most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.
So we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.

[Mat 7:22-23]
22/ Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23/ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is a part of the Sermon on the Mount which all along talks
about the Kingdom of God. i.e. salvation.
I am talking about the kingdom of God coming into us while alive(Luk 17:21).

How can we get TRUE salvation?
As it appears that there are false ones around
according to the above scripture.

Regards,

[willieH]

willieH: Hi 70sevens... :hithere:

Thank you for welcoming me, WilleH.

Your words make SALVATION dependent upon yourself 70... Your Salvation is of CHRIST... and IS began and completed BY HIM...
The grave mistake that the ones in Mat 7:21-23 make, is they do this same thing... noting THEY did the works, and the preaching, and the casting out of devils INSTEAD of CREDITING CHRIST with using THEM as His tools to do these things...
So instead of these things gaining GOD's approval... they gain His DISDAIN... and REJECTION...
JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, and that SALVATION is HIS WORK alone... (Eph 6:9 / John 12:3 / 1 Tim 4:9-11 / Heb 12:2)

Salvation is ours when Jesus Christ is in us.
If Jesus Christ is not present in us, we are not saved.
So when Jesus are saying to the ones in Mat 7:21-23,
"depart!" it means seperation from the Jesus Christ.
Of course to them no salvation given.

First, you are making assumptions here... because,

My new friend, SALVATION is NOT even mentioned in this set of verses, is it?

Don't you see that JESUS in this context is speaking of ...WORKS? that these men or women are boasting about?

In a previous verse just before, He says:

(vs 18):  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit)

OUR WORKS (moments of our lives) shall be JUDGED... the WORKS presented in these verses by these which call JESUS Lord, are JUDGED iniquity... but nothing is said to them that THEY they are not saved  :dontknow:  CHRIST is noting "get out of here with that garbage"... something like GOD told CAIN... when he brought UNACCEPTABLE offerings before YHVH...

No,
the ones in Mat 7:21-23 did the works and the preaching in the name of the Lord(Verse 22).
It means that they creditted Christ in doing such things.

They aren't CREDITING JESUS at all!  ...they are busy patting themselves on the back by crediting themselves...

They did not humbly mention that CHRIST had used them as His tools to "preach' (prophesy), cast out devils, or do WONDERFUL works... they were boasting of themselves bro!  Read it:

...have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name?
and ["have WE"] in Thy name cast out devils?
and in Thy name ["have WE"] DONE done many wonderful works?

Yes, I agree that salvation is entirely of Jesus Christ.
But that does not mean that we need not to check where we are.

YES 70sevens... we must continue to SUBMIT to CHRIST... but when that SUBMISSION in us, from that point it is HIM, doing the WORKS... WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...

We have to check whether we are off the way of salvation before we die.

It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death... Where does it say that ONE cannot be saved in the RESURRECTION 70?  :Book:

PAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70!  How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)

Otherwise we will be thinking that we are saved,
but on the day we will found ourselves away from the Christ,
like the one in Mat 7:21-23.

SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70... it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men... it is not up to MEN to save themselves (by "thinking")... 

JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of the WORLD 70... (1 John 2:2 / 4:14)

Paul said
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.
Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
[2Cor13:5]

Again 70... this "examination" does NOT determine your SALVATION... It determines whether or not you are being true to BOTH CHRIST, and at the same time to, ...YOURSELF...

As John noted: (1 John 1:8)  If ...WE SAY... that we have NO sin we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...IN US.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men.
Yes right.
But not all men want salvation.

Again 70... SALVATION is not based upon "what we WANT"... it is based upon the WILL and WORK of JESUS CHRIST...

HE is the Author (beginning/alpha) and Finisher (completion/omega) of SALVATION (Heb 12:2 / Eph 2:8-9)

No man CAN come to CHRIST, except YHVH draws [drag] him to the Savior... (John 6:44 / 12:32)

Of all men, those who do not want salvation cannot be saved.

Do you really think that MEN make the call on LIFE or DEATH?  The Scriptures say that JESUS CHRIST hold THESE KEYS 70! (Rev 1:18)

Concerning THIS LIFE 70... were YOU consulted?  Did God ask you, "Hey 70... wanna be BORN?  Who do you want as parents?  What country do you wish to live in?  How long do you wish to live?  What ERA of TIME fits your fancy?"  Of course He didnt... and that was only about a short span of time, NOT ETERNITY!

When it comes to LIFE, dear 70... GOD makes the call... about ALL THINGS... we are the beneficiarys of GRACE and LOVE, not the controllers of IT... nor is the CLAY able to dictate to the POTTER, how and when to do what He does...  :mshock:  What He does is SAVE us from our SIN... and is NO RESPECTER of persons (impartial) (Acts 10:34)

Think about those Jews who met Jesus some 2k years back.
Not all of them saved, but only those who saved were saved.

I already showed you Scripture that STATES that ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED... you, at present are unable to see this, and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!    :happygrin:

Peace b unto U  :thumbsup:

in  JESUSwillieH :gamer:

[SeekerSA]

The most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.

So by implication, an unbeliever cannot discuss the salvation of Jesus?  What if he/she is sent here by the Holy Spirit to learn get revelation, are we to dismiss a non-believer?  What about atheists, agnostics, Muslims et al?  This reeks of exclusivism.

Joh 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw⁽¹⁶⁷⁰⁾ [drags] him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.

G1670 ελκύω, έλκω helkuō  helkō hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.  (Read the context on this thread Many Mansions)

So we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.

Now how is one to determine they are saved?  I will be interested to hear your take on this.

Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21  Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!


I really wonder who Jesus is speaking to here?  Notice the red bits.  Does that sound like something an unbeliever does or will do?  I don't think so.  How does one cast out a demon/devil in the name of Jesus if you do not first believe in Jesus?

Particularly, Jesus is talking to those self righteous pious people who take the credit for the works (gifts) of the Holy Spirit, there are many and yes God uses them if no one else is available.

Jesus did not come to condemn, he came to save.  He came to restore man to God as God desires a personal relationship with each one of us.  Those "Christians" who operate in the gifts as God desires (the gifts are part of salvation) and never get to truly know God in person are those referred to here in this scripture.  Notice, the preceding "By their fruits you shall know them"  I have seen these "prophets", "ministers of deliverance", "mighty workers" etc. and they are 1/7th Christians, their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.  God does the works, not the people.

A non believer will not Prophesy in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do deliverance in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do any mighty works in the name of Jesus.

Yet we find unbelievers that are more considerate than Christians in that they;

Mat 25:33  and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34  `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:35  for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
Mat 25:36  naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37  `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
Mat 25:38  and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
Mat 25:39  and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
Mat 25:40  `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .

The point I make here is the judgement met out is to whom?  Righteous or unrighteous?

Traditionally we have been taught this is the unbelievers, no, it is the believers that should have known better.  I think many Christians will be surprised at the WTJ as to who actually receive crowns of righteousness.

Luk 17:20  And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.
Luk 17:21  Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
Luk 17:22  And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you shall not see it.

The kingdom of God had descended with Jesus yet the pious and righteous of the day did not see/perceive it.  Just as it is today, many Christians do not see the Kingdom as they are still blinded from the truth by the doctrines of men.  Until the Holy Spirit guides us to search out God in prayer and the scriptures, we remain blind.  People follow signs and wonders but fail to see the WHO that is actually responsible for it.  Jesus was very clear when He said

Mat 6:33  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things (all other things such as food, clothing, signs and wonders) shall be added to you.

Mar 16:17  And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;

True salvation is only through Jesus.  Some may find it in this life others later.  We preach Jesus here, we do not teach Jesus or Buddha or Hari Krishna or Mohamed or whatever.

Every knee shall bow to the glory of the Father.  Jesus died for ALL men's sins, past present and future.  It IS the ultimate final atonement for sin.

If the Father does not draw men, how then can they be held accountable for their sins, that is why Jesus is the appropriation for ALL mankind's sin.

1Co 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
1Co 15:21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
1Co 15:24  then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25  for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy made to cease is death.

And the wages of sin is Death, not Eternal Torment.

Blessings

[70sevens]

Hi Willie,

I did not quote all your words. Please understand.

1. "The Word SALVATION isn't even mentioned here, but WORKS."

What is salvation?
Salvation means that the becoming one with Jesus Christ by receiving HIM into our mind.
So when Jesus says "Depart" to someone, that means the one is not saved.
Because it means separation from the Jesus Christ, the life.
When we are in Christ, we are saved and we are in life.

About Works :
This does not mean a certain kind actions as we normally think.
The works represent the doer, himself.
The works and the doer are one.
You mention good verse, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
So if we brought forth evil fruit(iniquity), then we, ourselves, are evil trees.

Also you mentioned CAIN,
CAIN's offering was rejected.
But if you read carefully what was rejected was not the offering alone.
CAIN himself was also rejected.

[Gen 4:5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

So good tree bring forth good fruit, evil tree being forth evil fruit.

The ones in Mat 7:21-23 are spiritually CAIN's generation
who believe in Jesus (GOD) in their own way.
Naturally, they shouldn't be saved,
as the evil tree should not bear good fruit. That's the truth.

2.  Boasting themselves

Yes, that is the one of the characteristics of evil trees.
But try to see the tree itself, not fruits.
Fruits comes from the trees.
Apostle Paul he sometimes did boast himself,
but knowing that He, himself is good tree, that boasting is also good fruit.
(I beg you to read this part carefully.)

3.  WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...

I do not quite understand this part. Sorry.

4.  It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death...

God gave Jesus for us to be saved before we die.
Why do we wish to wait until we die.
If you are worrying about other people, Mighty GOD will care.
In believing Jesus, it is all and everything that I, myself, is to be saved before death.

I do not know how you understand RESURRECTION,
but if we are saved we are resurrected from the dead.
We will see the Kingdom of God out there.

5.  ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

Paul did not mean that all Israel shall be saved at the time of resurrection.
Resurrection is not such a day.
Now all Israel do not believe in Jesus,
but in God's time I think they also accept Jesus as their Savior.

Anyhow, it is not my concern when all Israel shall be saved.
My concern is that I should be saved now here.
Selfish?  No. I should be saved first, then I can reach helping hand
out to my beloved neighbors.

6. SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70...
    it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men...

We do not have to over-emphasize this, even if it is truth.
When we talk about salvation, you have to "think (or recognize)" "salvation"
unless otherwise no point talking.
Further, I did not say our thinking would save us.

Please try to think what you are trying to say about salvation.
I presume you are explaining salvation unreachable, unrecognizable fantasy kind of thing.
Salvation is our status being with GOD(Christ) as one.
According to Scripture that is IMMANUEL (God is with us) brought by Jesus.

If one is saved, he should know that salvation is upon him.
How can we not know when the Almighty GOD is upon us?
Paul ask us to examine this by ourselves.

Yes, all this salvation process is started and completed by Jesus.
When this process starts within us, we have to decide whether to follow our old self or Jesus.
In salvation, Jesus will lead us first if we do not follow his leading, no salvation will be given.
That is so obvious.

In other terms, if we follow our old self we will be unsaved. If we follow Jesus, we will be saved.
In this thread Jesus says as below :
[Mat 10:39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's why I mentioned earlier that some do not want follow Jesus to be saved.

7.  "and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!"

The water runs from higher place to lower place. 
We will see it how.

Warmest Regards.

[Kratos]

70,

Welcome back. I just want to touch one point that you made about resurrection. You stated something to the effect that only the saved are resurrected. This is not true. Take a look at the verses below:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are two resurrections mentioned on these verses. The first resurrection is for the Overcoming believers who will rule and reign with Christ. The second resurrection is of both the righteuos and the wicked so God can continue His work of purifying His Kingdom by dealing with and consuming all that offends in us. Believers that have not Overcome as described in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation are raised in the second resurrrection with those who rejected Christ.

Your mistake, in my opinion, is limiting God's power to save to this present life and this present age. Peter acknowledged that this inability to understand the patience and longsuffering of God and how time does not hinder God's will being done in the below verses:

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I would humbly submit to you, my Brother, that you heed the words of the Holy Spirit through Peter. Do not be ignorant that thousands of years are but days to God and He will wait for the whole harvest of mankind. He cannot be frustrated or defeated in His will being done and it is His will that none perish and all come to repentence. Do not make the mistake of assuming that the will of man is stronger or longer lasting than the will of God when it comes to the salvation of all men.

Blessings,

John

[willieH]

willieH: Hi 70sevens... :hithere:

This answer will be in TWO PARTS 70!

PART ONE...

Hi Willie,

I did not quote all your words. Please understand.

I never expect anything from anyone bro... I just note what I can see... and admit that I cannot see all there is to see...  One thing you might consider... as you post your beliefs here... MOST of the believers on TENTMAKER, were where you "are" before coming to believe the TRUE GOSPEL of the Salvation of ALL MEN...

1.

The Word SALVATION isn't even mentioned here, but WORKS.

What is salvation?
Salvation means that the becoming one with Jesus Christ by receiving HIM into our mind.

Instead of you or I defining what SALVATION is, lets see how this word is defined in GOD's WORD eh?

SALVATION (#4991 Strongs Ex concordance)... SOTERIA (greek) noun, Rescue or Safety - Deliver, health, salvation, save, saving...

Though I agree that ONENESS with God is the accomplishment of SALVATION, that IS NOT what it IS...  What it IS is DELIVERANCE from something (sin)...

If I SAVE someone from a FIRE... they have become one with SAFETY, but that is NOT what I did for them... What I did was RESCUE them... and in DOING SO, they have become ONE with SAFETY...

Doya catch my drift?  So SALVATION can only be accomplished by CHRIST who is our DELIVERER, which brings us from DANGER (death), SAVING us from it... and in doing so, brings us FROM DEATH (sin) to LIFE... thereby SAVING us...

So when Jesus says "Depart" to someone, that means the one is not saved.
Because it means separation from the Jesus Christ, the life.
When we are in Christ, we are saved and we are in life.

Here 70, ...you are using your assumption as the deduction of the verse... These verses say NOTHING of SALVATION... they are (within the context) speaking of WORKS... and the WORKS which are directed to DEPART, are those which are brought or suggested by the WORKERS... these WORKERS note THEIR WORKS, not the WORK of CHRIST, ...working, ...IN THEM... and THAT is why they are instructed to "DEPART"... nothing is stated about an ETERNAL scenario devoid of SALVATION here...

What is actually being stated, is that MANY will supposedly represent CHRIST in this world, and that MANY... are actually representing THEMSELVES, not JESUS... even though they do these things using His Name...

About Works :
This does not mean a certain kind actions as we normally think.
The works represent the doer, himself.
The works and the doer are one.
You mention good verse, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
So if we brought forth evil fruit(iniquity), then we, ourselves, are evil trees.

WORKS that proceed FROM a given ONE,  if are (as is noted in this verse) done FROM that ONE,  ...are NOT the Work of CHRIST...

They are the WORK of that ONE... they appear as LIGHT because this ONE has named them of CHRIST, but they are NOT LIGHT because CHRIST has not been the ORIGIN... the origin is THEM... [have WE not DONE in Thy name...]

No offense is intended toward YOU 70, but just for illustration's sake...

"LEADING souls to CHRIST"... have YOU ever done this 70?  Have YOU ever "led" someone TO JESUS?  If not, do you know anyone who has?

If you say you HAVE (led someone to CHRIST), then the WORK is NOT of CHRIST... for NO MAN CAN come to CHRIST except GOD draw him... not 70... not willieH...

GOD can USE one who is in submission to Him, but then the SUBMITTED "tool" is NOT doing the WORK, the one WIELDING the "tool" is doing it...

I am a guitar player, and own 5 guitars, ...NOT ONE of my 5 GUITARS has EVER played ONE NOTE... The music's origin is ME... the Guitar is the instrument of the MUSIC in ME... (areya catchin my drift?)

ONLY GOD can lead a person to the foot of the Cross... these folk in Mt 7:21-23 , are claiming THEY did the stuff they note...

Also you mentioned CAIN,
CAIN's offering was rejected.
But if you read carefully what was rejected was not the offering alone.
CAIN himself was also rejected.

Cain was instructed that IF he went back and DID RIGHT (which was to submit), that He would be ACCEPTED... (and even though it is not noted, it is quite possible that Cain repented and DID RIGHT before YHVH...

Cain, even though rejected, was PROTECTED by God... read of how GOD stated that anyone that SLEW Cain would be avenged against SEVENFOLD...

Without going WAY off the discussion, the point I am making is that CAIN (even though he had murdered his brother) was STILL valued and protected by GOD...

[Gen 4:5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

So good tree bring forth good fruit, evil tree being forth evil fruit.

Okay 70... before you were a Christian, were you a "good tree"?  No "tree" can bring forth "good fruit" unless the direction or WILL of that 'tree" is CHRIST...

The ones in Mat 7:21-23 are spiritually CAIN's generation
who believe in Jesus (GOD) in their own way.
Naturally, they shouldn't be saved,
as the evil tree should not bear good fruit. That's the truth.

Sorry bud, this is NOT TRUE...  Again, Mat 7:21-23 does NOT MENTION SALVATION... it mentions WORKS... and also mentions that MANY shall do and say these "kind" of WORKS... That does not mean they will not be SAVED... it means their WORKS are UNACCEPTABLE... as WORKS in which GOD is therein GLORIFIED... and THAT is why they are UNACCEPTABLE...

2. 

Boasting themselves

Yes, that is the one of the characteristics of evil trees.
But try to see the tree itself, not fruits.
Fruits comes from the trees.
Apostle Paul he sometimes did boast himself,
but knowing that He, himself is good tree, that boasting is also good fruit.
(I beg you to read this part carefully.)

You have failed to mention PAUL's BOASTS... please do so, then I will comment...

3. 

WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...

I do not quite understand this part. Sorry.

If the WILL of GOD is proceeding from YOU, then YOUR WILL is NOT!  :dontknow:

END OF PART ONE... I'll post part two immediately though!

ShaLoM...  :dsunny:

In  JESUS...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi 70sevens :hithere:

PART TWO...

4. 

It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death...

God gave Jesus for us to be saved before we die.
Why do we wish to wait until we die.
If you are worrying about other people, Mighty GOD will care.
In believing Jesus, it is all and everything that I, myself, is to be saved before death.

First, show me in the BIBLE, where it says that SALVATION must be accomplished BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH... :Book: :scratchhead:

No one "waits" 70... we are CALLED at the decision of GOD, ...and GOD gives us the "ears" to HEAR that CALL... We are drawn to our Savior of HIS WILL, not of OURS...

CHRIST "authors" and "finishes" FAITH (Heb 12:2) which is, ...HIS WORK, ...

FAITH is required for SALVATION, and only BY the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, can one CONFESS CHRIST as Lord, unto Salvation (Rom 10:13 / 1 Cor 12:3) HIS WORK... and EVERY KNEE shall bow and Tongue CONFESS (Rom 14:11 / Phil 2:10-11 / Is 45:23) ...HIS WORK...

I do not know how you understand RESURRECTION,
but if we are saved we are resurrected from the dead.
We will see the Kingdom of God out there.

You WILL die 70... for it is appointed... and you PARTAKE of the 1st Resurrection by FAITH being instituted BY GOD, IN YOU... that is HIS CALL... you do not decide to be SAVED, nor to "BELIEVE"... this is HIS DOING... ALL shall NOT do this, in THIS LIFETIME...

5. 

ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

Paul did not mean that all Israel shall be saved at the time of resurrection.

Then, in your understanding, WHAT did PAUL mean 70?  :Chinscratch:  For MOST of ISRAEL is BLINDED to their Savior! And have subsequently gone, or will go... to their PHYSICAL DEATH ...BEFORE... they have that BLINDNESS removed...  :dontknow:

This is merely your opinion... Let's not get ahead of ourselves...  :shakepoint:

NO ONE is SAVED ...yet... NO ONE has put on INCORRUPTION, ...NO ONE has ENTERED ETERNITY... ALL remain in INCORRUPTION until the RESURRECTION 70...

Resurrection is not such a day.
Now all Israel do not believe in Jesus,
but in God's time I think they also accept Jesus as their Savior.

MOST of mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike will not KNOW CHRIST... as Savior until the Resurrection!  Btw... no one "accepts" CHRIST, ...they BELIEVE in Him as Savior, ...GOD is not "accepted by us"... it is the other way around 70!  :secret:

Anyhow, it is not my concern when all Israel shall be saved.
My concern is that I should be saved now here.
Selfish?  No. I should be saved first, then I can reach helping hand
out to my beloved neighbors.

It is not your concern to be about the Salvation of ANY, 70... that is CHRIST's concern... what YOUR CONCERN and mine, is or should be, that our reasonable SERVICE (Rom 12:1) is done and that is SUBMISSION to CHRIST... 

SALVATION is not yet yours (or mine or anyone's)... SALVATION is a process... which is done BY GOD, in HIS TIME, by HIS HAND... and He shall SAVE ALL, simultaneously at the ETERNAL Cross of CHRIST...  ALL shall find (completed) REDEMPTION at the same moment, for GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

Your concern should be about maintaining SUBMISSION... if you are SUBMITTED, then you do NOTHING for your beloved neighbors, ...it is then, ...CHRIST can take that SUBMITTED YOU (as an INSTRUMENT) to bring THOSE He has CHOSEN to bring in THIS LIFE, ...to Himself...

6.

SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70... it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men...

We do not have to over-emphasize this, even if it is truth.
When we talk about salvation, you have to "think (or recognize)" "salvation"
unless otherwise no point talking.
Further, I did not say our thinking would save us.

You are correct, what you said was:

Otherwise we will be thinking that we are saved, but on the day we will found ourselves away from the Christ,
like the one in Mat 7:21-23.

What you "think" is not the point... KNOWING CHRIST is the point... If you are SUBMITTED to Him, then it is no longer YOU that are working within your agenda... you become part of HIS WORKING of HIS AGENDA... Which is to SAVE ALL His Children...

Please try to think what you are trying to say about salvation.
I presume you are explaining salvation unreachable, unrecognizable fantasy kind of thing.

Of course I am NOT!  What I am trying to convey to you 70, is that SALVATION is neither YOUR WORK (or mine), nor is anyones "SALVATION" (including your own) UP to YOU (or me)...  SALVATION is not UNREACHABLE for CHRIST to accomplish, but it IS for MAN (you or I) to accomplish...

Salvation is our status being with GOD(Christ) as one.

I have already noted the definition of SALVATION... it is DELIVERANCE... and that PROCESS is still yet to be COMPLETED...

It is not a "present status" of our standing with God, for ALL SIN for ALL TIME was accounted for at the CROSS of CHRIST, even BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the WORLD...

We are amidst the manifestation of TIME, and within it, we are ALL incomplete until TIME is COMPLETED upon the LAST DAY... At the LAST DAY... comes the RESURRECTION from DEATH of ALL, ...and, ...ALL JUDGMENT, of the works of man...

According to Scripture that is IMMANUEL (God is with us) brought by Jesus.

If one is saved, he should know that salvation is upon him.
How can we not know when the Almighty GOD is upon us?
Paul ask us to examine this by ourselves.

70... the Apostles were about continually reminding the followers of CHRIST, to examine themselves, for the DECEIT within us (James 1:5) can RE-EMERGE as long as we are in these PHYSICAL and MORTAL bodies...

So periodically (daily), we should be about the cognizance of our DAILY lives.. in which, indifference, lies, adultries, idolatries, etc... can and DO re-emerge from time to time... this is not an EXAMINATION to note whether or not we are SAVED...

John reminded His flock to do this (John 1:8-9).  Because these followers might have back-slidden, doesn't mean they were no longer "saved"... but it was necessary for them to be reminded of the ease in which humans can self-deceive, and that they must daily evaluate, their proximity to GOD and their own submission to Him...

Yes, all this salvation process is started and completed by Jesus.
When this process starts within us, we have to decide whether to follow our old self or Jesus.

This is making the process under YOUR CONTROL 70... the job that is YOURS is to submit to CHRIST... not decide to follow Him, ...continue to do so in submission TO HIM...

In salvation, Jesus will lead us first if we do not follow his leading, no salvation will be given.  That is so obvious.

I just don't agree with this my friend... Don't you see that your words make our "Salvation" dependent upon OUR FOLLOWING Him?  That is OUR DOING, not His... 

If we follow or not, He is FAITHFUL... He doesn't "change His mind" every 10 seconds... He, before the Foundation of the World, decided to come and SAVE you and I... that doesn't change, from "sin" back to "obedience"... nor from "obedience" back to "Sin"...

That we enter into (time's) temporary dis-fellowship via our wrongdoings doesn't change the COMPLETED and FINALIZED WORK of CHRIST at the Cross... which is SALVATION...

In other terms, if we follow our old self we will be unsaved. If we follow Jesus, we will be saved.

Again, you list OUR FOLLOWING as the SAVING ELEMENT 70... and thereby deduce our Salvation as determined upon OUR FAITHFULNESS, and NOT upon His...  :mnah:

In this thread Jesus says as below :
[Mat 10:39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Don't you see this is the destiny of ALL?  ALL shall "lose their lives" 70... and upon that LOSS, find CHRIST and LIFE... some in THIS LIFE, some in the Resurrection, but ALL that are or were LOST, ...will be FOUND...

CHRIST came to SAVE (find) that which was LOST... (Lk 19:10)  How many are LOST 70?

Read some of the Parables... the LOST COIN was ...FOUND / the LOST SHEEP was ...FOUND / the LOST SON was ...FOUND...

That's why I mentioned earlier that some do not want follow Jesus to be saved.

Only those that are CALLED will follow, and MANY of them, as has been amply noted, are not about CHRIST's agenda, but their own...

7. 

"and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!"

The water runs from higher place to lower place. 
We will see it how.

Not sure what you are saying in this answer, but I do wish you well in your search for TRUTH...

ShaLoM...  :dsunny:

In  JESUS...willieH  :icon_king:

[70sevens]

Hello Kratos,

Thanks for your participation.
Let me say something about RESURRECTION based on the bible.

1. There is no 2nd resurrection in the scripture.

Quote---------------------------------------
The first resurrection is for the Overcoming believers who will rule and reign with Christ.
The second resurrection is of both the righteous and the wicked so God can continue
His work of purifying His Kingdom by dealing with and consuming all that offends in us.
Unquote-------------------------------------

No 2nd resurrection is mentioned in the bible.
The first resurrection means the resurrection of Jesus.
"The first (in Greek PROTOS)" does not have meaning of numerical counts/order in this case.
"The first" means Jesus Christ.   
Please refer to the following verses in which 'the first' implies Jesus :

[Rev1:17]
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead.
Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."
[Rev 2:4]
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.

So actually, you are explaining the same single resurrection above, which is salvation.

[Rom 6:5]
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also
be united with him in his resurrection.

If we are united with HIM in HIS resurrection, we are saved,
and 1) we will rule and reign with Christ,
and 2) HIS Kingdom in us will be purified by consuming all that offends.

2. Resurrection of the righteous and wicked.

Resurrection of wicked means fake resurrection that leads to hell (in Greek Hades).
Please refer to the Rich man's case in Luke Chapter 16.

[Luke 16:22-23]
22/ And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
23/ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
and Lazarus in his bosom.

The above verses show us what is the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
The resurrection will take place person by person, not simultaneously. 
Also the resurrection is happening here in this world.

3. Jesus, including scripture, talks only about resurrection during present life.

You will recall that Lazarus in John Chapter11 who once was dead and risen again by Jesus.
By doing this miraculous sign,
Jesus wishes to reveal us that the dead men, actually we are, the sinners,
to be resurrected now here in this present life.
But the poor Martha keeps on saying with fixed idea that
the resurrection would take place in future at the last day.

[John 11:23-26]
23/ Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24/ Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25/ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26/ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

According to traditional teachings, the resurrection comes after the current life, as Martha thinks.
But true resurrection is here in this life as Jesus reveals.

4. Jesus and the Scripture meant for people living this present age.

My common sense is that if GOD wants salvation for those who are physically dead unsaved,
HE would have sent angels with the suitable scripture to that world.
Surely God sent Jesus to save us who are living in this world at present age.

As for me, I was so desperate to be saved.
After salvation, I am helping others who wish to be saved.
This is how Jesus and Apostles lived their life.
Our current life is short even to do this, no time to think about the people
who are in the after-life-world. God will care them.

The present life is given for our own salvation.
In living this life, we should not place our salvation/resurrection
at the after-life-world as Martha did. 

Let him hear who has ears to hear.

Sincerely,

Chung

[Sarah]

According to traditional teachings, the resurrection comes after the current life, as Martha thinks.
But true resurrection is here in this life as Jesus reveals.

AMEN!!  I agree that our concern should be in this life.  After believing in UR for awhile now, the afterlife is no longer of major consequence.  My desire is to help people now to arise, and myself included...that I may not walk around as dead. 

Salvation is knowing Him.  The afterlife should not be a tool to persuade men to serve Him.  We serve Him because it is better to be alive than dead.

[Sarah]

I just realized I didn't answer the original question.  I agree that all of the philisophical talking doesn't matter if we are not 'saved'.  The idea of hell has become a non-issue for me because I know in my heart et isn't true, but I think sometimes it provides a false motivater to spread the gospel...which cheats the giver and the reciever of the word.

I was feeling this the other day.  Wouldn't you know a saved person by their fruit....well, to tell you the truth, not many are saved then.  Especially Christians.  They seem to lack peace and joy. 

I think of the words of the Apostle Paul....that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection that I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.  Did that mean then that Paul was not risen, was in the process of rising, or that indeed he was talking about a physical resurrection?

[Kratos]

70,

I can only read and believe what I read in the scriptures. You say that there is no first and second resurection to come.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here the scriptures clearly state a first resurrection of those who will rule and reign with Christ. The fact that there is a first means there must be a second and these verses say that there is a thousand years that separate these two resurrections.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Both of the above sections of scripture speak of a resurrection and judgment of both the righteous and the wicked. Those who have Overcome have already been raised for 1000 years prior to this in the firsr resurrection. Paul knew that he would be part of the second resurrection because he knew that this would be "all that are in their graves", yet he still pressed forward toward the high calling in Christ and hope to be counted worthy to know Him the power of this first resurrection.

John

[70sevens]

Hi, SeekerSA,

Good trees bear good fruits, Evil trees bear evil fruits.

Somehow initial part of my writings did not get through to you properly.
Accordingly,it seems to me your answers are a bit off focused. 
Anyway,
Yes, I also agree that Mat 7:18-23 is spoken to the believers.
After all, all the words in the scripture are spoken to the believers.
Non-believers do not read the scripture anyway.

[Mat 7:18-23]
18/ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19/ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20/ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21/ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22/ Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23/ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

According to what I understand you defined these believers as :
"Those Christians who operate in the gifts as God desires and never get to truly know God in person.
i.e. 1/7th Christians in your terms."

Then, would you please tell me whether those Christians are good trees or evil trees.
If they are good tress, how can they bring forth evil fruits
(i.e. their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.)?

If they are evil trees, what will happen to them then?
Do you agree with the fact that they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
This is in line with Jesus' saying " depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Mat 7:23)"

So when Jesus comes, He will not encourage or ask evil trees to bear good fruits,
but will cut them down.
Because evil trees will never bear good fruits ever by nature.
Jesus would not do that kind of "Evil trees-Good fruits Magic".
Please tell me your views on this.

We have to think the fruits always together with trees, not fruits alone.
In this non-truth world, evil trees bear good fruits. Think about hypocrites.
Unfortunately they do not know that their fruits are dead ones.
They would be blessed if they hear this and realize they have dead fruits.
We are no exception in that matter.
We should be in check whether our fruits comes from good trees or evil trees?
Who are we?

Regards,

Chung

[70sevens]

Hi Kratos,

RESURRECTION

Earlier I summarized as below collating from your words:

If we are united with HIM in HIS resurrection, we are saved,
and 1) we will rule and reign with Christ,
and 2) HIS Kingdom in us will be purified by consuming all that offends.

You say 1) is the first resurrection and 2) is the second resurrection.
Now, what is the difference between the two? 
No difference. 
It all talks about this fact that our sinful mind is being cleansed by Jesus Christ
and eventually Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) comes into our mind and reign together.
'Being one with Christ' - this is the salvation.

[Joh 5:28-29]
Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The graves do not mean the physical ones. We, the sinners, are dead and in the graves now.
Because we are dead, we do not have ears to hear Jesus' voice.
But the time will come to each individual to hear Jesus' voice.
They that accept His voice and follow Him will come forth unto the resurrection of life (Lazarus in Luke 16).
They that accept His voice as laws will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation
(Earlier I mentioned this one as 'fake resurrection': Rich Man in Luke 16).

His voice is same, but will be heard differently by individual, to someone as laws, to someone as grace. 
Once again, all this happens here now in this world.

One more thing,
The terms 'doing good' and 'doing evil' do not mean ethical and/or moral deeds of this world.
Good deeds are the works coming from the GOD, who is the only GOOD (See the verse below).

[Mark 10:18]
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Evil deeds are works done without GOD.

If we sow something of GOD, we will reap the resurrection of life,
if we sow something of non-GOD will reap the resurrection of damnation.

As for the resurrection mentioned by Paul, I will take another chance to explain.
It would require longer time.
In any case, he is also talking about the same resurrection that I have mentioned so far.

All the best.

Chung

[70sevens]

Hi, Sarah,

Definition of Salvation

Thank you for joining, especially for your understanding my points.
In fact,
I came here not to discuss salvation, but to show the way that leads to the TRUE salvation.

You say salvation is knowing Him. Yes, right.
"Knowing" means 'being one/marriage (in Greek ginosko)'.
So if we are married to Jesus, we will be one with Him and we will know Him.
And that is the salvation.

Then, how can we be with Him as one?

Kind Regards

Chung

[Sarah]

Then, how can we be with Him as one?

I would say to obey his commandments.

Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul

AND...the one very much like it....

Love your neighbor as yourself.

He says His yoke is easy and His burden is light...but to the carnel these commandments are impossible and break down into a bunch of ol' rules....but in the Spirit, they are easy because they are natural.

I feel that I become one with Him by being with Him and hearing his voice and obeying...this isn't just in personal prayer time, but hearing Him in the voice of my neighbor.  I feel the lack when I am an island and need to see Him in you.

:girlheart:

[SeekerSA]

Hi Chung

Then, would you please tell me whether those Christians are good trees or evil trees.
If they are good tress, how can they bring forth evil fruits
(i.e. their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.)?

If they are evil trees, what will happen to them then?
Do you agree with the fact that they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
This is in line with Jesus' saying " depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Mat 7:23)"

So when Jesus comes, He will not encourage or ask evil trees to bear good fruits,
but will cut them down.
Because evil trees will never bear good fruits ever by nature.
Jesus would not do that kind of "Evil trees-Good fruits Magic".
Please tell me your views on this

The gifts of salvation are irrevocable and in spite of our weaknesses God will and can still use those that choose to operate/be used in the gifts.  As for Good or bad trees I think we can be both, when operating on a Sunday you can be a good tree but revert to a bad tree the other six days of the week.  My views go a bit deeper than just a few proof texts and we need to see the whole scripture and not just the parts of certain passages.

Salvation, faith are all gifts of God.  The born-again process can be a WoW moment for some, others it is a progressive process.  Many desire the gifts but not the giver of the gifts and from what I have seen, that is pretty much where their walk in Christ stagnates.

Every good thing we do, comes from above.  When we mix our carnal understanding with that endowed to us by the Spirit as a justification of right standing with God, that is the bad fruit and that is what is tares and that is what needs to be destroyed either now or later.

We have to think the fruits always together with trees, not fruits alone.
In this non-truth world, evil trees bear good fruits. Think about hypocrites.
Unfortunately they do not know that their fruits are dead ones.
They would be blessed if they hear this and realize they have dead fruits.
We are no exception in that matter.
We should be in check whether our fruits comes from good trees or evil trees?
Who are we?

I agree with this. 

I think of a scenario where a believer will profess to be Christian, maybe even bible punch a few colleagues and may at a point "steal" something from his workplace.  What do the colleagues see, Jesus or a thief?

We all see the outer manifestations of men, only God can see into the hearts of men.  Did he sin by stealing, even if it was a box of paper-clips, yes.  The Holy Spirit should convict and either he returns it, makes a public confession or alternatively bears the burden of the guilt of his sin.

The world sets/expects higher standards many times than many Christians set for themselves.  I have seen this pious nature far too often and even I was guilty of it at one stage.  What the world does not perceive is that Love covers a multitude of sin and even willful sins.  Somewhere I like to think, such a person repents of that sin and seeks forgiveness.

The world sees us as hypocrites as they see our weaknesses and not our strengths.  Now one asks where does the world derive their righteous standards from?  It is IMO built-in.

Christianity is seen by many as a heavy burden or a falsity based upon our witness.  Simple things like not cussing when the rest engage in that profanity will bear a silent witness.

We are supposed to shine as light in the world and not be conformed to its ways.  Like a natural father wants only what's best for his children, he will teach good principles and admonish them when they transgress, like wise, our Father is the same.  Admonishment comes but is not everlasting.  Once we have learned the lesson and know how to behave, it stops unless there is a recurrence.

If you have read some of my other posts, you will see I hold the view, sin was dealt with once and for all for all men, irrespective if they acknowledge God or not.  As one that has been drawn by God to meet Jesus, we now start to learn the Father's heart.  What we learn is of a Loving and just God.  In that I mean, just is not a term we use to describe the fact that He will banish >95% of creation to Eternal Torment.  That is what the mainstream evangelicals believe, I don't.

Too many Christians forget from whence they came.  If God could save you and I, what stops Him from saving ALL? Absolutely nothing.  It is His will that none perish and no matter how you view the will of man, it cannot override the Supreme Will of God.

The solution for our sin exists, many do not see it right now, no matter how much you tell them, unless God is doing the drawing, they will not accept/embrace it.

You as a father brings up a child in the correct ways and in spite of all the good you do, the child ends up a criminal in jail, maybe even a life sentence.  Do you stop loving them? I don't think so.  Now with human compassion you are able to forgive the unforgivable, how much more is our Father in Heaven able to forgive?  Much, much more.

The problem we have today is the reformation brought with it the Greco/Roman myths introduced by the RCC.  Some were abandoned but not all.  Study into the early church history will reveal just how much we are taught today are the doctrines of men.  Sadly these doctrines cloud the true nature of God and thus people are not interested in the "bad news"

Our witness to the world becomes of no effect as we hold stronger to traditions as opposed to holding onto God.  We teach what we were taught not getting into study and revelation for ourselves.  When you really make a study of the Epistles, one begins to see a totally different perspective than what is proffered from the pulpits of our churches.  The church today has become nothing more that a "bless-me", "phrozen-chosen" clubs and used to rob people of the truth via tithes so that the "pastor" has the best car, flies 1st class, buys his own jet et al.  The truth is twisted and perverted to achieve the ends of a few.  The problem is, many are blinded and work their salvation by regularly attending church yet never bothering to test the teachings by the Word and the Spirit.

The mainstream evangelicals view the RCC as the whore/harlot but I am afraid, 99% of the churches today share that same name.

Maybe in your culture, it is different and maybe this is a situation we in the western world perceive but I would guess this is a global situation.

Many of the big churches today have huge "cathedrals" and this was never how Jesus intended it to be.  Where were the disciples, in the temples or in the countryside?  Instead of going out to meet the needs of the needy, the needy are expected to come to the church and once members, they may (if they are lucky) receive assistance in the bare necessities of life.

Jesus ministry can be summarized into two words.

COME and GO.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

PAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70!  How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)

From Willie.

All Israel is saved Willie, I agree.  The real question then becomes who is the real Israel??

For are we not told by the apostles that not all Jews are Jews, (but some are of the synagogue of Satan), and not all Israel is Israel?!

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

It is impossible now to determine who is of Israel via geneologies, therefore it is in vain to worry or concern ourselves with geneologies or 'family trees' now.

Furthermore,... to try to pinpoint the true Jerusalem from above by a title or cognomen such as 'Israel' or 'Jew' is utterly futile.  Not by flesh and blood but by the Spirit of God.


Romans 2:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We all must believe in Jesus to see salvation.  Wether now (this life), or later (millinium), but prior to the second death (the destruction of this dimension and spirits not of him), otherwise we shall not see life.

Peace in Christ Jesus.

[70sevens]

Hello SeekerSA,

Irrevocability

I guess our discussions deal with too many subjects at one time.
Why don't we narrow it down to "good tree-good fruit and evil tree-evil fruit" first.

Quote------------------------------
The gifts of salvation are irrevocable and in spite of our weaknesses God will and can still use
those that choose to operate/be used in the gifts. 
Unquote----------------------------

Yes, salvation is irrevocable. Why? Because saved ones are re-born as good trees.
So good trees will bear good fruits irrevocably for good.
This is the meaning of 'irrevocable' pertaining to the salvation.
But sorry to the evil trees!
They must be cut down and put into fire, as they would not bear good fruits also irrevocably.

Salvation and Condemnation

Jesus came to give us the salvation, but the salvation must entail the condemnation by nature.
So the salvation has both sides, salvation on the front and condemnation on the reverse side.
Salvation can not stand alone without condemnation, as the light can not exist without the darkness.
Deep thoughts are invited herein.
Let's look at the verses below :

[John 3:17-18]
17/ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
18/ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Here above, believers are saved, non-believers are condemned.
To be frank, the condemnation of non-believers is brought by whom? By Jesus.
We need not to try to beautify Jesus out of vain loyalty, even ignoring the truth.

Here non-believers refers to the evil trees,
and they are self righteous pious people in the church as you stated.
Those who find themselves condemned by Jesus, the Word,
do not try to make excuses, but repent! Then they will live and be saved.
To those that repent, therefore, Jesus' condemnation worked as the salvation.

So let's do not dismiss the condemnations by Jesus.
Welcome and thank them for giving us opportunity of repentance
which will lead us to the salvation.

Good tree-Good fruit, Evil tree-Evil fruit

Quote-----------------------
As for Good or bad trees I think we can be both, when operating on a Sunday
you can be a good tree but revert to a bad tree the other six days of the week. 
My views go a bit deeper than just a few proof texts and we need to see the whole scripture
and not just the parts of certain passages.
Unquote-------------------

As I mentioned earlier I see it differently. The Monkey is monkey, the rabbit is rabbit.
The Monkey cannot change himself to the rabbit by acting rabbit. The monkey cannot be a part-time rabbit.
So once good tree, he is good tree 7days a week and forever irrevocably.

The sinner sins. He sins forever.
In order not to sin, the sinner should be cut down and be re-born as the righteous.
Jesus came to do this for us.
 
"Good tree-Good fruit, Evil tree-Evil fruit" truth will go in harmony with the rest of the passages
of the scripture. As such, if we understand this,
our eyes will be opened to the rest of the passages, too.

Best Regards,

Chung

[SeekerSA]

Hi Chung

There are parallel texts to the fruit trees that we can discuss later, I want to touch on this bit.

Here above, believers are saved, non-believers are condemned.
To be frank, the condemnation of non-believers is brought by whom? By Jesus.
We need not to try to beautify Jesus out of vain loyalty, even ignoring the truth.

Using my NKJV out of preference;

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18  He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Yes up to here there is an automatic condemnation.  But what is this condemnation?

Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the ⁽¹⁾Light has come into the world, and ⁽²⁾men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21  ⁽³⁾But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.

1. Light has come into the world

2. Men love darkness - because their deeds evil - do not come to the light lest they be exposed

3. Practices truth, comes to the light - revealed - HAVING BEEN THE WORKS OF GOD

I am not playing with semantics here.  Do men really hate light and prefer darkness literally? No!  So what does it mean?  It describes our carnality and I think I or others have touched on this, man does not seek out the things of God naturally.  - FACT

Those practicing truth do not mind having their works revealed but read carefully whose works they are, the are of God and not of man.

The light coming into the world is Jesus yes, you and I will agree on this however, man will not seek out Jesus naturally, that is a work of the Father who must do the dragging FIRST.

Now as there is no single solution of how we get saved i.e. A happens then B happens then C and so on.  For each one it is unique how we "find Jesus"  however, it is not us that find Him, it is the Father that finds us.  In the dragging process, at the end of the day, light is revealed and essentially we accept as we have no real choice in the matter.  THIS IS ALL THE WORK OF OUR FATHER.

Even in your own conversion pre-process, if you think back, that which happened was not of your own doings.

Look at the conversion of Saul.  Was he on his way to seek out Jesus on the road to Damascus?  I don't think so.

Paul's conversion was the closest we have to a model of conversion, admittedly, his was radical but even ours is also radical to a similar degree.

In almost all testimonies, the common theme is that there was circumstances and/or a desire, an emptiness which prompted the seeking out.  Who do you think controls those circumstances, that emptiness, that desire? You? God?

Things happen and eventually when the light is revealed, we can only accept it, we cannot reject it.  We have no choice in the matter, the conviction is so strong and at that time saying NO seems ludicrous.

So salvation is not of ourselves it is of God's will.

Why does God not draw all men?

There are two roads, the narrow road, and the wide road.  Traditionally the wide road is the highway to Eternal Torment.  No it is not.  We all end up in hell (the grave).  It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement.  No there is no rapture, that is a lie of the devil himself and many Christians have been falsely led to believe this myth for over 2 centuries.  Want to find out more about it?  Read here.

The narrow road is for the few chosen.

I am sorry if it seems I cannot stay on topic but these are all interrelated.


Back to the trees

By their fruits you shall know them.

Your view and mine are both acceptable and we can agree to disagree at this point.  We need to look at another allegory.  The vine, being grafted into and being pruned.

Even as believers, there is tares that grow up with us.  We are grafted into the vine (Israel) and are being pruned.

Now what happens in the natural?  A vine if left unpruned will grow wild and the fruit it bears will be substandard.  The vine-dresser trims off the dead-wood so that new can shoot and from that, excellent fruit comes forth.  The dead wood is that which will bear no "good fruit" and it can also be yesteryear's revelation.  The process is ongoing and only the dead-wood is trimmed off.

Likewise, when seed is sown, there are tares and wheat.  Tares is a crop that looks similar to wheat in all aspects until the head matures.  Wheat naturally bows the head before harvest whereas the tares remain upright.

In both these scenarios, it is not an us and them as it is commonly taught, it is an us and us.

We all have dead wood and tares and these need to be pruned and/or uprooted and thrown into the fire/destroyed.

Like I said earlier, one cannot discuss or base a theology around one or two scriptures. 

One of the hardest things to let go of is the "us and them" thinking and adopt a "we" thinking.

If my friend Hell is real, the burning version, why are not all Christians actively warning people of this impending horror that awaits them?  Surely, our lifestyles, cars, Fancy houses et al. mean little than converting all to this realisation?

Ask anyone who has tried street evangelism.  Why do they give up?

If you want to know how the ministry of an evangelist works, study Philip's ministry.  He was always sent by the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

[Taffy]

In both these scenarios, it is not an us and them as it is commonly taught, it is an us and us.

:thumbsup:
Blessings
Taffy

[70sevens]

Hi SeekerSA,

Jesus condemns God???

Your NKJV scripture also says that there is condemnation :

[Joh 3:19-21]
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the (1)Light has come into the world,
and (2)men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21  (3)But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist,
having been worked in God.

Here, we see the same principle of trees.
Evil deed doers =love darkness = evil trees = condemnation
Truth doers (workers in God) = love light = good trees= salvation

However, strangely enough, you ascribe this Jesus' condemnation to GOD.
Why? GOD did not draw the non-believers to Jesus, and yet Jesus condemns those.
Thus, Jesus condemns the work of GOD and Jesus condemns God Himself, according to your logic.
Please tell me if I am mistaken.

Just for your information, I did not state my views yet on the subject like
'what is the condemnation', 'what is the eternal torment', 'or rapture', etc.
So kindly do not carry on your sayings based on the assumption
that I have traditional thinking about these issues.
At the moment, let us just see what scripture says here.

Regards,

Chung

[Locoman]

Luke 10:25-28 Love God,and love your nieghbor

Luke 18:18-22 Do not commit adultry,Do not murder,Do not steal,Do not bear false witness,Honor your father and your mother,Sell Everything and distribute it to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven!

Luke 14:26-33 Hate your father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters,yes and even his own life he cannot be my disiple!Whoever doesnt bear his own cross,and come after me,cant be my disciple!

John 6:53-54 Eat his flesh and drink his blood and have eternal life!

Matthew 18:2-3 Unless you become like a children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!

John 3:3 Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God!

Matthew 5:20 Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!

John 3:16 Whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life!

Heres the way I see it!
Step 1,Love everyone
Step 2,Sell everything
Step 3,Hate everyone,and bear your own cross
Step 4,Eat flesh and drink blood
Step 5,Be a little child
Step 6,Be born again
Step 7,Follow over 600 OT laws
Step 8,Believe in Jesus

Now Jesus is God and God is perfect I would think that every time someone asked him how to get to heaven he would give the same answer every time and how can anyone follow these things?

[70sevens]

Hi,

I wonder whether you are saying this based on your life or based on your bible study.
Have you been leading those life?
Also have you been praying to God in doing those works and even in everyday life?
Then for how long?

Regards

[70sevens]

Hello Sarah,

Please stick around. I want to talk to you.
Let me finish 101 things first, then will go to 201.

In Chirst,
Chung

[Sarah]

I'm still here... :icon_jokercolor:

Heres the way I see it!
Step 1,Love everyone
Step 2,Sell everything
Step 3,Hate everyone,and bear your own cross
Step 4,Eat flesh and drink blood
Step 5,Be a little child
Step 6,Be born again
Step 7,Follow over 600 OT laws
Step 8,Believe in Jesus

Now Jesus is God and God is perfect I would think that every time someone asked him how to get to heaven he would give the same answer every time and how can anyone follow these things?

That response sounds a little bitter.  Iv'e felt that way too before...."God if you want it to be clear then write clearer!" Iv'e yelled before hurling the bible across the room.