Hello,
The most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.
So we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.
[Mat 7:22-23]
22/ Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23/ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is a part of the Sermon on the Mount which all along talks
about the Kingdom of God. i.e. salvation.
I am talking about the kingdom of God coming into us while alive(Luk 17:21).
How can we get TRUE salvation?
As it appears that there are false ones around
according to the above scripture.
Regards,
willieH: Hi 70sevens... :hithere:
Quote from: 70sevens on September 28, 2007, 08:13:50 AM
Thank you for welcoming me, WilleH.
Quote from: willieHYour words make SALVATION dependent upon yourself 70... Your Salvation is of CHRIST... and IS began and completed BY HIM...
The grave mistake that the ones in Mat 7:21-23 make, is they do this same thing... noting THEY did the works, and the preaching, and the casting out of devils INSTEAD of CREDITING CHRIST with using THEM as His tools to do these things...
So instead of these things gaining GOD's approval... they gain His DISDAIN... and REJECTION...
JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, and that SALVATION is HIS WORK alone... (Eph 6:9 / John 12:3 / 1 Tim 4:9-11 / Heb 12:2)
Quote from: 70sevensSalvation is ours when Jesus Christ is in us.
If Jesus Christ is not present in us, we are not saved.
So when Jesus are saying to the ones in Mat 7:21-23,
"depart!" it means seperation from the Jesus Christ.
Of course to them no salvation given.
First, you are making assumptions here... because,
My new friend, SALVATION is NOT even mentioned in this set of verses, is it?
Don't you see that JESUS in
this context is speaking of ...
WORKS? that these men or women are boasting about?
In a previous verse just before, He says:
(vs 18): A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit)
OUR WORKS (moments of our lives) shall be JUDGED... the WORKS presented in these verses by these which call JESUS Lord, are JUDGED
iniquity... but nothing is said to them that THEY they are not saved :dontknow: CHRIST is noting "get out of here with that garbage"... something like GOD told CAIN... when he brought UNACCEPTABLE offerings before
YHVH...
Quote from: 70sevensNo,
the ones in Mat 7:21-23 did the works and the preaching in the name of the Lord(Verse 22).
It means that they creditted Christ in doing such things.
They aren't CREDITING JESUS at all! ...they are busy patting themselves on the back by crediting themselves...
They did not humbly mention that CHRIST had used them as His tools to "preach' (prophesy), cast out devils, or do WONDERFUL works... they were boasting of themselves bro! Read it:
...have ...
WE... not prophesied in Thy name?
and ["have WE"] in Thy name cast out devils?
and in Thy name ["have WE"] DONE done many wonderful works?
Quote from: 70sevensYes, I agree that salvation is entirely of Jesus Christ.
But that does not mean that we need not to check where we are.
YES 70sevens... we must continue to SUBMIT to CHRIST... but when that SUBMISSION in us, from that point it is HIM,
doing the WORKS... WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...
Quote from: 70sevensWe have to check whether we are off the way of salvation before we die.
It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death... Where does it say that ONE cannot be saved in the RESURRECTION 70? :Book:
PAUL noted that
ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70! How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then
OR now? (Rom 11:26)
Quote from: 70sevensOtherwise we will be thinking that we are saved,
but on the day we will found ourselves away from the Christ,
like the one in Mat 7:21-23.
SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70... it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men... it is not up to MEN to save themselves (by "thinking")...
JESUS CHRIST ...
IS... the Savior of the
WORLD 70... (1 John 2:2 / 4:14)
Quote from: 70sevensPaul said
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.
Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
[2Cor13:5]
Again 70... this "examination" does NOT determine your SALVATION... It determines whether or not you are being true to BOTH CHRIST, and at the same time to, ...YOURSELF...
As John noted: (1 John 1:8) If ...WE SAY... that we have NO sin we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...IN US.
Quote from: 70sevensJesus Christ is the Savior of all men.
Yes right.
But not all men want salvation.
Again 70... SALVATION is not based upon "what we WANT"... it is based upon the WILL and WORK of JESUS CHRIST...
HE is the Author (beginning/alpha) and Finisher (completion/omega) of SALVATION (Heb 12:2 / Eph 2:8-9)
No man
CAN come to CHRIST, except
YHVH draws [drag] him to the Savior... (John 6:44 / 12:32)
Quote from: 70sevensOf all men, those who do not want salvation cannot be saved.
Do you really think that MEN make the call on LIFE or DEATH? The Scriptures say that JESUS CHRIST hold THESE KEYS 70! (Rev 1:18)
Concerning
THIS LIFE 70... were
YOU consulted? Did God ask you, "Hey 70... wanna be BORN? Who do you want as parents? What country do you wish to live in? How long do you wish to live? What ERA of TIME fits your fancy?" Of course He didnt... and that was only about a short span of time, NOT ETERNITY!
When it comes to LIFE, dear 70... GOD makes the call... about ALL THINGS... we are the beneficiarys of GRACE and LOVE, not the controllers of IT... nor is the CLAY able to dictate to the POTTER, how and when to do what He does... :mshock: What He does is SAVE us from our SIN... and is NO RESPECTER of persons (impartial) (Acts 10:34)
Quote from: 70sevensThink about those Jews who met Jesus some 2k years back.
Not all of them saved, but only those who saved were saved.
I already showed you Scripture that STATES that
ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED... you, at present are unable to see this, and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend! :happygrin:
Peace b unto U :thumbsup:
in
JESUS
willieH :gamer:
Quote from: 70sevensThe most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.
So by implication, an unbeliever cannot discuss the salvation of Jesus? What if he/she is sent here by the Holy Spirit to learn get revelation, are we to dismiss a non-believer? What about atheists, agnostics, Muslims et al? This reeks of exclusivism.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw(1670) [drags] him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me. G1670 ελκύω, έλκω helkuō helkō hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138;
to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me. (Read the context on this thread
Many Mansions)
Quote from: 70sevensSo we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.
Now how is one to determine they are saved? I will be interested to hear your take on this.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
I really wonder who Jesus is speaking to here? Notice the red bits. Does that sound like something an unbeliever does or will do? I don't think so. How does one cast out a demon/devil in the name of Jesus if you do not first believe in Jesus?
Particularly, Jesus is talking to those self righteous pious people who take the credit for the works (gifts) of the Holy Spirit, there are many and yes God uses them if no one else is available.
Jesus did not come to condemn, he came to save. He came to restore man to God as God desires a personal relationship with each one of us. Those "Christians" who operate in the gifts as God desires (the gifts are part of salvation) and never get to truly know God in person are those referred to here in this scripture. Notice, the preceding "By their fruits you shall know them" I have seen these "prophets", "ministers of deliverance", "mighty workers" etc. and they are 1/7th Christians, their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God. God does the works, not the people.
A non believer will not Prophesy in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do deliverance in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do any mighty works in the name of Jesus.
Yet we find unbelievers that are more considerate than Christians in that they;
Mat 25:33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:35
for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
Mat 25:36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me. Mat 25:37 `
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
Mat 25:38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
Mat 25:39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 `
And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .
The point I make here is the judgement met out is to whom? Righteous or unrighteous?
Traditionally we have been taught this is the unbelievers, no, it is the believers that should have known better. I think many Christians will be surprised at the WTJ as to who actually receive crowns of righteousness.
Luk 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.
Luk 17:21 Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you shall not see it. The kingdom of God had descended with Jesus yet the pious and righteous of the day did not see/perceive it. Just as it is today, many Christians do not see the Kingdom as they are still blinded from the truth by the doctrines of men. Until the Holy Spirit guides us to search out God in prayer and the scriptures, we remain blind. People follow signs and wonders but fail to see the WHO that is actually responsible for it. Jesus was very clear when He said
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things (all other things such as food, clothing, signs and wonders) shall be added to you.
Mar 16:17 And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues; True salvation is only through Jesus. Some may find it in this life others later. We preach Jesus here, we do not teach Jesus
or Buddha
or Hari Krishna
or Mohamed
or whatever.
Every knee shall bow to the glory of the Father. Jesus died for ALL men's sins, past present and future. It IS the ultimate final atonement for sin.
If the Father does not draw men, how then can they be held accountable for their sins, that is why Jesus is the appropriation for ALL mankind's sin.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy made to cease is death. And the wages of sin is Death, not Eternal Torment.
Blessings
Hi Willie,
I did not quote all your words. Please understand.
1. "The Word SALVATION isn't even mentioned here, but WORKS."
What is salvation?
Salvation means that the becoming one with Jesus Christ by receiving HIM into our mind.
So when Jesus says "Depart" to someone, that means the one is not saved.
Because it means separation from the Jesus Christ, the life.
When we are in Christ, we are saved and we are in life.
About Works :
This does not mean a certain kind actions as we normally think.
The works represent the doer, himself.
The works and the doer are one.
You mention good verse, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
So if we brought forth evil fruit(iniquity), then we, ourselves, are evil trees.
Also you mentioned CAIN,
CAIN's offering was rejected.
But if you read carefully what was rejected was not the offering alone.
CAIN himself was also rejected.
[Gen 4:5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
So good tree bring forth good fruit, evil tree being forth evil fruit.
The ones in Mat 7:21-23 are spiritually CAIN's generation
who believe in Jesus (GOD) in their own way.
Naturally, they shouldn't be saved,
as the evil tree should not bear good fruit. That's the truth.
2. Boasting themselves
Yes, that is the one of the characteristics of evil trees.
But try to see the tree itself, not fruits.
Fruits comes from the trees.
Apostle Paul he sometimes did boast himself,
but knowing that He, himself is good tree, that boasting is also good fruit.
(I beg you to read this part carefully.)
3. WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...
I do not quite understand this part. Sorry.
4. It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death...
God gave Jesus for us to be saved before we die.
Why do we wish to wait until we die.
If you are worrying about other people, Mighty GOD will care.
In believing Jesus, it is all and everything that I, myself, is to be saved before death.
I do not know how you understand RESURRECTION,
but if we are saved we are resurrected from the dead.
We will see the Kingdom of God out there.
5. ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.
Paul did not mean that all Israel shall be saved at the time of resurrection.
Resurrection is not such a day.
Now all Israel do not believe in Jesus,
but in God's time I think they also accept Jesus as their Savior.
Anyhow, it is not my concern when all Israel shall be saved.
My concern is that I should be saved now here.
Selfish? No. I should be saved first, then I can reach helping hand
out to my beloved neighbors.
6. SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70...
it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men...
We do not have to over-emphasize this, even if it is truth.
When we talk about salvation, you have to "think (or recognize)" "salvation"
unless otherwise no point talking.
Further, I did not say our thinking would save us.
Please try to think what you are trying to say about salvation.
I presume you are explaining salvation unreachable, unrecognizable fantasy kind of thing.
Salvation is our status being with GOD(Christ) as one.
According to Scripture that is IMMANUEL (God is with us) brought by Jesus.
If one is saved, he should know that salvation is upon him.
How can we not know when the Almighty GOD is upon us?
Paul ask us to examine this by ourselves.
Yes, all this salvation process is started and completed by Jesus.
When this process starts within us, we have to decide whether to follow our old self or Jesus.
In salvation, Jesus will lead us first if we do not follow his leading, no salvation will be given.
That is so obvious.
In other terms, if we follow our old self we will be unsaved. If we follow Jesus, we will be saved.
In this thread Jesus says as below :
[Mat 10:39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
That's why I mentioned earlier that some do not want follow Jesus to be saved.
7. "and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!"
The water runs from higher place to lower place.
We will see it how.
Warmest Regards.
70,
Welcome back. I just want to touch one point that you made about resurrection. You stated something to the effect that only the saved are resurrected. This is not true. Take a look at the verses below:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There are two resurrections mentioned on these verses. The first resurrection is for the Overcoming believers who will rule and reign with Christ. The second resurrection is of both the righteuos and the wicked so God can continue His work of purifying His Kingdom by dealing with and consuming all that offends in us. Believers that have not Overcome as described in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation are raised in the second resurrrection with those who rejected Christ.
Your mistake, in my opinion, is limiting God's power to save to this present life and this present age. Peter acknowledged that this inability to understand the patience and longsuffering of God and how time does not hinder God's will being done in the below verses:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I would humbly submit to you, my Brother, that you heed the words of the Holy Spirit through Peter. Do not be ignorant that thousands of years are but days to God and He will wait for the whole harvest of mankind. He cannot be frustrated or defeated in His will being done and it is His will that none perish and all come to repentence. Do not make the mistake of assuming that the will of man is stronger or longer lasting than the will of God when it comes to the salvation of all men.
Blessings,
John
willieH: Hi 70sevens... :hithere:
This answer will be in TWO PARTS 70!
PART ONE...
Quote from: 70sevens on September 29, 2007, 03:38:48 PM
Hi Willie,
I did not quote all your words. Please understand.
I never expect anything from anyone bro... I just note what I can see... and admit that I cannot see all there is to see... One thing you might consider... as you post your beliefs here... MOST of the believers on TENTMAKER, were where you "are" before coming to believe the TRUE GOSPEL of the Salvation of ALL MEN...
1. Quote from: willieHThe Word SALVATION isn't even mentioned here, but WORKS.
Quote from: 70What is salvation?
Salvation means that the becoming one with Jesus Christ by receiving HIM into our mind.
Instead of you or I defining what SALVATION is, lets see how this word is defined in GOD's WORD eh?
SALVATION (#4991 Strongs Ex concordance)...
SOTERIA (greek) noun, Rescue or Safety - Deliver, health, salvation, save, saving...
Though I agree that ONENESS with God is the accomplishment of SALVATION, that IS NOT what it IS... What it IS is DELIVERANCE from something (sin)...
If I SAVE someone from a FIRE... they have become one with SAFETY, but that is NOT what I did for them... What I did was RESCUE them... and in DOING SO, they have become ONE with SAFETY...
Doya catch my drift? So SALVATION can only be accomplished by CHRIST who is our DELIVERER, which brings us from DANGER (death), SAVING us from it... and in doing so, brings us FROM DEATH (sin) to LIFE... thereby SAVING us...
Quote from: 70So when Jesus says "Depart" to someone, that means the one is not saved.
Because it means separation from the Jesus Christ, the life.
When we are in Christ, we are saved and we are in life.
Here 70, ...you are using your assumption as the deduction of the verse... These verses say NOTHING of SALVATION... they are (within the context) speaking of WORKS... and the WORKS which are directed to DEPART, are those which are brought or suggested by the WORKERS... these WORKERS note THEIR WORKS, not the WORK of CHRIST, ...working, ...IN THEM... and THAT is why they are instructed to "DEPART"... nothing is stated about an ETERNAL scenario
devoid of SALVATION here...
What is actually being stated, is that
MANY will
supposedly represent CHRIST in this world, and that
MANY... are actually representing THEMSELVES, not JESUS... even though they do these things using His Name...
Quote from: 70About Works :
This does not mean a certain kind actions as we normally think.
The works represent the doer, himself.
The works and the doer are one.
You mention good verse, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
So if we brought forth evil fruit(iniquity), then we, ourselves, are evil trees.
WORKS that proceed
FROM a given ONE, if are (as is noted in this verse) done
FROM that ONE, ...are NOT the Work of CHRIST...
They are the WORK of that ONE... they appear as LIGHT because this ONE has named them of CHRIST, but they are NOT LIGHT because CHRIST has not been the ORIGIN... the origin is THEM... [have
WE not DONE in
Thy name...]
No offense is intended toward YOU 70, but just for illustration's sake...
"LEADING souls to CHRIST"... have
YOU ever done this 70? Have
YOU ever "led" someone TO JESUS? If not, do you know anyone who has?
If you say you HAVE (led someone to CHRIST), then the WORK is NOT of CHRIST... for NO MAN
CAN come to CHRIST except
GOD draw him... not 70... not willieH...
GOD can
USE one who is in submission to Him, but then the SUBMITTED "tool" is NOT doing the WORK, the one WIELDING the "tool" is doing it...
I am a guitar player, and own 5 guitars, ...NOT ONE of my 5 GUITARS has EVER played ONE NOTE... The music's origin is ME... the Guitar is the instrument of the MUSIC in ME... (areya catchin my drift?)
ONLY GOD can lead a person to the foot of the Cross... these folk in Mt 7:21-23 , are claiming THEY did the stuff they note...
Quote from: 70Also you mentioned CAIN,
CAIN's offering was rejected.
But if you read carefully what was rejected was not the offering alone.
CAIN himself was also rejected.
Cain was instructed that IF he went back and DID RIGHT (which was to submit), that He would be ACCEPTED... (and even though it is not noted, it is quite possible that Cain repented and DID RIGHT before
YHVH...
Cain, even though rejected, was PROTECTED by God... read of how GOD stated that anyone that SLEW Cain would be avenged against SEVENFOLD...
Without going WAY off the discussion, the point I am making is that CAIN (even though he had murdered his brother) was STILL valued and protected by GOD...
Quote from: 70[Gen 4:5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
So good tree bring forth good fruit, evil tree being forth evil fruit.
Okay 70... before you were a Christian, were you a "good tree"? No "tree" can bring forth "good fruit" unless the direction or WILL of that 'tree" is CHRIST...
Quote from: 70The ones in Mat 7:21-23 are spiritually CAIN's generation
who believe in Jesus (GOD) in their own way.
Naturally, they shouldn't be saved,
as the evil tree should not bear good fruit. That's the truth.
Sorry bud, this is NOT TRUE... Again, Mat 7:21-23 does NOT MENTION SALVATION... it mentions WORKS... and also mentions that MANY shall do and say these "kind" of WORKS... That does not mean they will not be SAVED... it means their WORKS are UNACCEPTABLE... as WORKS in which GOD is therein GLORIFIED... and THAT is why they are UNACCEPTABLE...
2. Quote from: 70Boasting themselves
Yes, that is the one of the characteristics of evil trees.
But try to see the tree itself, not fruits.
Fruits comes from the trees.
Apostle Paul he sometimes did boast himself,
but knowing that He, himself is good tree, that boasting is also good fruit.
(I beg you to read this part carefully.)
You have failed to mention PAUL's BOASTS... please do so, then I will comment...
3. Quote from: willieHWE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...
Quote from: 70I do not quite understand this part. Sorry.
If the WILL of GOD is proceeding from YOU, then YOUR WILL is NOT! :dontknow:
END OF
PART ONE... I'll post part two immediately though!
ShaLoM... :dsunny:
In
JESUS
...willieH :icon_king:
willieH: Hi 70sevens :hithere:
PART TWO...
4. Quote from: willieHIt is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death...
QuoteGod gave Jesus for us to be saved before we die.
Why do we wish to wait until we die.
If you are worrying about other people, Mighty GOD will care.
In believing Jesus, it is all and everything that I, myself, is to be saved before death.
First, show me in the BIBLE, where it says that SALVATION must be accomplished BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH... :Book: :scratchhead:
No one "
waits" 70... we are CALLED at the decision of GOD, ...and GOD gives us the "ears" to HEAR that CALL... We are drawn to our Savior of HIS WILL, not of OURS...
CHRIST "authors" and "finishes"
FAITH (Heb 12:2) which is, ...HIS WORK, ...
FAITH is required for SALVATION, and only BY the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, can one CONFESS CHRIST as Lord, unto Salvation (Rom 10:13 / 1 Cor 12:3) HIS WORK... and EVERY KNEE shall bow and Tongue CONFESS (Rom 14:11 / Phil 2:10-11 / Is 45:23) ...HIS WORK...
QuoteI do not know how you understand RESURRECTION,
but if we are saved we are resurrected from the dead.
We will see the Kingdom of God out there.
You WILL die 70... for it is appointed... and you PARTAKE of the 1st Resurrection by FAITH being instituted BY GOD, IN YOU... that is HIS CALL... you do not decide to be SAVED, nor to "BELIEVE"... this is HIS DOING... ALL shall NOT do this, in THIS LIFETIME...
5. Quote from: willieHALL ISRAEL shall be saved.
QuotePaul did not mean that all Israel shall be saved at the time of resurrection.
Then, in your understanding, WHAT did PAUL mean 70? :Chinscratch: For MOST of ISRAEL
is BLINDED to their Savior! And have subsequently gone, or will go... to their PHYSICAL DEATH ...
BEFORE... they have that BLINDNESS removed... :dontknow:
This is merely your opinion... Let's not get ahead of ourselves... :shakepoint:
NO ONE is SAVED ...yet... NO ONE has put on INCORRUPTION, ...NO ONE has ENTERED ETERNITY... ALL remain in INCORRUPTION until the RESURRECTION 70...
Quote from: 70Resurrection is not such a day.
Now all Israel do not believe in Jesus,
but in God's time I think they also accept Jesus as their Savior.
MOST of mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike will not KNOW CHRIST... as Savior until the Resurrection! Btw... no one "accepts" CHRIST, ...they BELIEVE in Him as Savior, ...GOD is not "accepted by us"... it is the other way around 70! :secret:
Quote from: 70Anyhow, it is not my concern when all Israel shall be saved.
My concern is that I should be saved now here.
Selfish? No. I should be saved first, then I can reach helping hand
out to my beloved neighbors.
It is not
your concern to be about the Salvation of ANY, 70... that is CHRIST's concern... what YOUR CONCERN and mine, is or should be, that our reasonable SERVICE (Rom 12:1) is done and that is SUBMISSION to CHRIST...
SALVATION is not yet yours (or mine or anyone's)... SALVATION is a process... which is done BY GOD, in HIS TIME, by HIS HAND... and He shall SAVE ALL, simultaneously at the ETERNAL Cross of CHRIST... ALL shall find (completed) REDEMPTION at the same moment, for GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...
Your concern should be about maintaining SUBMISSION... if you are SUBMITTED, then you do NOTHING for your beloved neighbors, ...it is then, ...CHRIST can take that SUBMITTED YOU (as an INSTRUMENT) to bring THOSE He has CHOSEN to bring in THIS LIFE, ...to Himself...
6. Quote from: willieHSALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70... it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men...
Quote from: 70We do not have to over-emphasize this, even if it is truth.
When we talk about salvation, you have to "think (or recognize)" "salvation"
unless otherwise no point talking.
Further, I did not say our thinking would save us.
You are correct, what you said was:
Quote from: 70Otherwise we will be thinking that we are saved, but on the day we will found ourselves away from the Christ,
like the one in Mat 7:21-23.
What you "think" is not the point... KNOWING CHRIST is the point... If you are SUBMITTED to Him, then it is no longer YOU that are working within your agenda... you become part of HIS WORKING of HIS AGENDA... Which is to SAVE
ALL His Children...
Quote from: 70Please try to think what you are trying to say about salvation.
I presume you are explaining salvation unreachable, unrecognizable fantasy kind of thing.
Of course I am NOT! What I am trying to convey to you 70, is that SALVATION is neither YOUR WORK (or mine), nor is anyones "SALVATION" (including your own) UP to YOU (or me)... SALVATION is not UNREACHABLE for CHRIST to accomplish, but it IS for MAN (you or I) to accomplish...
Quote from: 70Salvation is our status being with GOD(Christ) as one.
I have already noted the definition of SALVATION... it is DELIVERANCE... and that PROCESS is still yet to be COMPLETED...
It is not a "present status" of our standing with God, for ALL SIN for ALL TIME was accounted for at the CROSS of CHRIST, even BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the WORLD...
We are amidst the manifestation of TIME, and within it, we are ALL incomplete until TIME is COMPLETED upon the LAST DAY... At the LAST DAY... comes the RESURRECTION from DEATH of
ALL, ...and, ...ALL JUDGMENT, of the works of man...
Quote from: 70According to Scripture that is IMMANUEL (God is with us) brought by Jesus.
If one is saved, he should know that salvation is upon him.
How can we not know when the Almighty GOD is upon us?
Paul ask us to examine this by ourselves.
70... the Apostles were about continually reminding the followers of CHRIST, to examine themselves, for the DECEIT within us (James 1:5) can RE-EMERGE as long as we are in these PHYSICAL and MORTAL bodies...
So periodically (daily), we should be about the cognizance of our DAILY lives.. in which, indifference, lies, adultries, idolatries, etc... can and DO re-emerge from time to time... this is not an EXAMINATION to note whether or not we are SAVED...
John reminded His flock to do this (John 1:8-9). Because these followers might have back-slidden, doesn't mean they were no longer "saved"... but it was necessary for them to be reminded of the ease in which humans can self-deceive, and that they must daily evaluate, their proximity to GOD and their own submission
to Him...
Quote from: 70Yes, all this salvation process is started and completed by Jesus.
When this process starts within us, we have to decide whether to follow our old self or Jesus.
This is making the process under YOUR CONTROL 70... the job that is YOURS is to submit to CHRIST... not decide to follow Him, ...continue to do so in submission TO HIM...
Quote from: 70In salvation, Jesus will lead us first if we do not follow his leading, no salvation will be given. That is so obvious.
I just don't agree with this my friend... Don't you see that your words make our "Salvation" dependent upon OUR FOLLOWING Him? That is OUR DOING, not His...
If we follow or not, He is FAITHFUL... He doesn't "change His mind" every 10 seconds... He, before the Foundation of the World, decided to come and SAVE you and I... that doesn't change, from "sin" back to "obedience"... nor from "obedience" back to "Sin"...
That we enter into (time's) temporary dis-fellowship via our wrongdoings doesn't change the COMPLETED and FINALIZED WORK of CHRIST at the Cross... which is SALVATION...
Quote from: 70In other terms, if we follow our old self we will be unsaved. If we follow Jesus, we will be saved.
Again, you list OUR FOLLOWING as the SAVING ELEMENT 70... and thereby deduce our Salvation as determined upon
OUR FAITHFULNESS, and NOT upon
His... :mnah:
Quote from: 70In this thread Jesus says as below :
[Mat 10:39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Don't you see this is the destiny of ALL? ALL shall "lose their lives" 70... and upon that LOSS, find CHRIST and LIFE... some in THIS LIFE, some in the Resurrection, but ALL that
are or
were LOST, ...will be FOUND...
CHRIST came to SAVE (find) that which was LOST... (Lk 19:10) How many are LOST 70?
Read some of the Parables... the LOST COIN was ...FOUND / the LOST SHEEP was ...FOUND / the LOST SON was ...FOUND...
QuoteThat's why I mentioned earlier that some do not want follow Jesus to be saved.
Only those that are CALLED will follow, and MANY of them, as has been amply noted, are not about CHRIST's agenda, but their own...
7. Quote from: willieH"and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!"
Quote from: 70The water runs from higher place to lower place.
We will see it how.
Not sure what you are saying in this answer, but I do wish you well in your search for TRUTH...
ShaLoM... :dsunny:
In
JESUS
...willieH :icon_king:
Hello Kratos,
Thanks for your participation.
Let me say something about RESURRECTION based on the bible.
1. There is no 2nd resurrection in the scripture.
Quote---------------------------------------
The first resurrection is for the Overcoming believers who will rule and reign with Christ.
The second resurrection is of both the righteous and the wicked so God can continue
His work of purifying His Kingdom by dealing with and consuming all that offends in us.
Unquote-------------------------------------
No 2nd resurrection is mentioned in the bible.
The first resurrection means the resurrection of Jesus.
"The first (in Greek PROTOS)" does not have meaning of numerical counts/order in this case.
"The first" means Jesus Christ.
Please refer to the following verses in which 'the first' implies Jesus :
[Rev1:17]
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead.
Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."
[Rev 2:4]
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
So actually, you are explaining the same single resurrection above, which is salvation.
[Rom 6:5]
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also
be united with him in his resurrection.
If we are united with HIM in HIS resurrection, we are saved,
and 1) we will rule and reign with Christ,
and 2) HIS Kingdom in us will be purified by consuming all that offends.
2. Resurrection of the righteous and wicked.
Resurrection of wicked means fake resurrection that leads to hell (in Greek Hades).
Please refer to the Rich man's case in Luke Chapter 16.
[Luke 16:22-23]
22/ And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
23/ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
and Lazarus in his bosom.
The above verses show us what is the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
The resurrection will take place person by person, not simultaneously.
Also the resurrection is happening here in this world.
3. Jesus, including scripture, talks only about resurrection during present life.
You will recall that Lazarus in John Chapter11 who once was dead and risen again by Jesus.
By doing this miraculous sign,
Jesus wishes to reveal us that the dead men, actually we are, the sinners,
to be resurrected now here in this present life.
But the poor Martha keeps on saying with fixed idea that
the resurrection would take place in future at the last day.
[John 11:23-26]
23/ Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24/ Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25/ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26/ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
According to traditional teachings, the resurrection comes after the current life, as Martha thinks.
But true resurrection is here in this life as Jesus reveals.
4. Jesus and the Scripture meant for people living this present age.
My common sense is that if GOD wants salvation for those who are physically dead unsaved,
HE would have sent angels with the suitable scripture to that world.
Surely God sent Jesus to save us who are living in this world at present age.
As for me, I was so desperate to be saved.
After salvation, I am helping others who wish to be saved.
This is how Jesus and Apostles lived their life.
Our current life is short even to do this, no time to think about the people
who are in the after-life-world. God will care them.
The present life is given for our own salvation.
In living this life, we should not place our salvation/resurrection
at the after-life-world as Martha did.
Let him hear who has ears to hear.
Sincerely,
Chung
QuoteAccording to traditional teachings, the resurrection comes after the current life, as Martha thinks.
But true resurrection is here in this life as Jesus reveals.
AMEN!! I agree that our concern should be in this life. After believing in UR for awhile now, the afterlife is no longer of major consequence. My desire is to help people now to arise, and myself included...that I may not walk around as dead.
Salvation is knowing Him. The afterlife should not be a tool to persuade men to serve Him. We serve Him because it is better to be alive than dead.
I just realized I didn't answer the original question. I agree that all of the philisophical talking doesn't matter if we are not 'saved'. The idea of hell has become a non-issue for me because I know in my heart et isn't true, but I think sometimes it provides a false motivater to spread the gospel...which cheats the giver and the reciever of the word.
I was feeling this the other day. Wouldn't you know a saved person by their fruit....well, to tell you the truth, not many are saved then. Especially Christians. They seem to lack peace and joy.
I think of the words of the Apostle Paul....that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection that I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. Did that mean then that Paul was not risen, was in the process of rising, or that indeed he was talking about a physical resurrection?
70,
I can only read and believe what I read in the scriptures. You say that there is no first and second resurection to come.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here the scriptures clearly state a first resurrection of those who will rule and reign with Christ. The fact that there is a first means there must be a second and these verses say that there is a thousand years that separate these two resurrections.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Both of the above sections of scripture speak of a resurrection and judgment of both the righteous and the wicked. Those who have Overcome have already been raised for 1000 years prior to this in the firsr resurrection. Paul knew that he would be part of the second resurrection because he knew that this would be "all that are in their graves", yet he still pressed forward toward the high calling in Christ and hope to be counted worthy to know Him the power of this first resurrection.
John
Hi, SeekerSA,
Good trees bear good fruits, Evil trees bear evil fruits.
Somehow initial part of my writings did not get through to you properly.
Accordingly,it seems to me your answers are a bit off focused.
Anyway,
Yes, I also agree that Mat 7:18-23 is spoken to the believers.
After all, all the words in the scripture are spoken to the believers.
Non-believers do not read the scripture anyway.
[Mat 7:18-23]
18/ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19/ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20/ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21/ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22/ Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23/ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
According to what I understand you defined these believers as :
"Those Christians who operate in the gifts as God desires and never get to truly know God in person.
i.e. 1/7th Christians in your terms."
Then, would you please tell me whether those Christians are good trees or evil trees.
If they are good tress, how can they bring forth evil fruits
(i.e. their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.)?
If they are evil trees, what will happen to them then?
Do you agree with the fact that they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
This is in line with Jesus' saying " depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Mat 7:23)"
So when Jesus comes, He will not encourage or ask evil trees to bear good fruits,
but will cut them down.
Because evil trees will never bear good fruits ever by nature.
Jesus would not do that kind of "Evil trees-Good fruits Magic".
Please tell me your views on this.
We have to think the fruits always together with trees, not fruits alone.
In this non-truth world, evil trees bear good fruits. Think about hypocrites.
Unfortunately they do not know that their fruits are dead ones.
They would be blessed if they hear this and realize they have dead fruits.
We are no exception in that matter.
We should be in check whether our fruits comes from good trees or evil trees?
Who are we?
Regards,
Chung
Hi Kratos,
RESURRECTION
Earlier I summarized as below collating from your words:
If we are united with HIM in HIS resurrection, we are saved,
and 1) we will rule and reign with Christ,
and 2) HIS Kingdom in us will be purified by consuming all that offends.
You say 1) is the first resurrection and 2) is the second resurrection.
Now, what is the difference between the two?
No difference.
It all talks about this fact that our sinful mind is being cleansed by Jesus Christ
and eventually Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) comes into our mind and reign together.
'Being one with Christ' - this is the salvation.
[Joh 5:28-29]
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The graves do not mean the physical ones. We, the sinners, are dead and in the graves now.
Because we are dead, we do not have ears to hear Jesus' voice.
But the time will come to each individual to hear Jesus' voice.
They that accept His voice and follow Him will come forth unto the resurrection of life (Lazarus in Luke 16).
They that accept His voice as laws will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation
(Earlier I mentioned this one as 'fake resurrection': Rich Man in Luke 16).
His voice is same, but will be heard differently by individual, to someone as laws, to someone as grace.
Once again, all this happens here now in this world.
One more thing,
The terms 'doing good' and 'doing evil' do not mean ethical and/or moral deeds of this world.
Good deeds are the works coming from the GOD, who is the only GOOD (See the verse below).
[Mark 10:18]
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Evil deeds are works done without GOD.
If we sow something of GOD, we will reap the resurrection of life,
if we sow something of non-GOD will reap the resurrection of damnation.
As for the resurrection mentioned by Paul, I will take another chance to explain.
It would require longer time.
In any case, he is also talking about the same resurrection that I have mentioned so far.
All the best.
Chung
Hi, Sarah,
Definition of Salvation
Thank you for joining, especially for your understanding my points.
In fact,
I came here not to discuss salvation, but to show the way that leads to the TRUE salvation.
You say salvation is knowing Him. Yes, right.
"Knowing" means 'being one/marriage (in Greek ginosko)'.
So if we are married to Jesus, we will be one with Him and we will know Him.
And that is the salvation.
Then, how can we be with Him as one?
Kind Regards
Chung
QuoteThen, how can we be with Him as one?
I would say to obey his commandments.
Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul
AND...the one very much like it....
Love your neighbor as yourself.
He says His yoke is easy and His burden is light...but to the carnel these commandments are impossible and break down into a bunch of ol' rules....but in the Spirit, they are easy because they are natural.
I feel that I become one with Him by being with Him and hearing his voice and obeying...this isn't just in personal prayer time, but hearing Him in the voice of my neighbor. I feel the lack when I am an island and need to see Him in you.
:girlheart:
Hi Chung
QuoteThen, would you please tell me whether those Christians are good trees or evil trees.
If they are good tress, how can they bring forth evil fruits
(i.e. their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.)?
If they are evil trees, what will happen to them then?
Do you agree with the fact that they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
This is in line with Jesus' saying " depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Mat 7:23)"
So when Jesus comes, He will not encourage or ask evil trees to bear good fruits,
but will cut them down.
Because evil trees will never bear good fruits ever by nature.
Jesus would not do that kind of "Evil trees-Good fruits Magic".
Please tell me your views on this
The gifts of salvation are irrevocable and in spite of our weaknesses God will and can still use those that choose to operate/be used in the gifts. As for Good or bad trees I think we can be both, when operating on a Sunday you can be a good tree but revert to a bad tree the other six days of the week. My views go a bit deeper than just a few proof texts and we need to see the whole scripture and not just the parts of certain passages.
Salvation, faith are all gifts of God. The born-again process can be a WoW moment for some, others it is a progressive process. Many desire the gifts but not the giver of the gifts and from what I have seen, that is pretty much where their walk in Christ stagnates.
Every good thing we do, comes from above. When we mix our carnal understanding with that endowed to us by the Spirit as a justification of right standing with God, that is the bad fruit and that is what is tares and that is what needs to be destroyed either now or later.
QuoteWe have to think the fruits always together with trees, not fruits alone.
In this non-truth world, evil trees bear good fruits. Think about hypocrites.
Unfortunately they do not know that their fruits are dead ones.
They would be blessed if they hear this and realize they have dead fruits.
We are no exception in that matter.
We should be in check whether our fruits comes from good trees or evil trees?
Who are we?
I agree with this.
I think of a scenario where a believer will profess to be Christian, maybe even bible punch a few colleagues and may at a point "steal" something from his workplace. What do the colleagues see, Jesus or a thief?
We all see the outer manifestations of men, only God can see into the hearts of men. Did he sin by stealing, even if it was a box of paper-clips, yes. The Holy Spirit should convict and either he returns it, makes a public confession or alternatively bears the burden of the guilt of his sin.
The world sets/expects higher standards many times than many Christians set for themselves. I have seen this pious nature far too often and even I was guilty of it at one stage. What the world does not perceive is that Love covers a multitude of sin and even willful sins. Somewhere I like to think, such a person repents of that sin and seeks forgiveness.
The world sees us as hypocrites as they see our weaknesses and not our strengths. Now one asks where does the world derive their righteous standards from? It is IMO built-in.
Christianity is seen by many as a heavy burden or a falsity based upon our witness. Simple things like not cussing when the rest engage in that profanity will bear a silent witness.
We are supposed to shine as light in the world and not be conformed to its ways. Like a natural father wants only what's best for his children, he will teach good principles and admonish them when they transgress, like wise, our Father is the same. Admonishment comes but is not everlasting. Once we have learned the lesson and know how to behave, it stops unless there is a recurrence.
If you have read some of my other posts, you will see I hold the view, sin was dealt with once and for all for all men, irrespective if they acknowledge God or not. As one that has been drawn by God to meet Jesus, we now start to learn the Father's heart. What we learn is of a Loving and just God. In that I mean, just is not a term we use to describe the fact that He will banish >95% of creation to Eternal Torment. That is what the mainstream evangelicals believe, I don't.
Too many Christians forget from whence they came. If God could save you and I, what stops Him from saving ALL? Absolutely nothing. It is His will that none perish and no matter how you view the will of man, it cannot override the Supreme Will of God.
The solution for our sin exists, many do not see it right now, no matter how much you tell them, unless God is doing the drawing, they will not accept/embrace it.
You as a father brings up a child in the correct ways and in spite of all the good you do, the child ends up a criminal in jail, maybe even a life sentence. Do you stop loving them? I don't think so. Now with human compassion you are able to forgive the unforgivable, how much more is our Father in Heaven able to forgive? Much, much more.
The problem we have today is the reformation brought with it the Greco/Roman myths introduced by the RCC. Some were abandoned but not all. Study into the early church history will reveal just how much we are taught today are the doctrines of men. Sadly these doctrines cloud the true nature of God and thus people are not interested in the "bad news"
Our witness to the world becomes of no effect as we hold stronger to traditions as opposed to holding onto God. We teach what we were taught not getting into study and revelation for ourselves. When you really make a study of the Epistles, one begins to see a totally different perspective than what is proffered from the pulpits of our churches. The church today has become nothing more that a "bless-me", "phrozen-chosen" clubs and used to rob people of the truth via tithes so that the "pastor" has the best car, flies 1st class, buys his own jet et al. The truth is twisted and perverted to achieve the ends of a few. The problem is, many are blinded and work their salvation by regularly attending church yet never bothering to test the teachings by the Word and the Spirit.
The mainstream evangelicals view the RCC as the whore/harlot but I am afraid, 99% of the churches today share that same name.
Maybe in your culture, it is different and maybe this is a situation we in the western world perceive but I would guess this is a global situation.
Many of the big churches today have huge "cathedrals" and this was never how Jesus intended it to be. Where were the disciples, in the temples or in the countryside? Instead of going out to meet the needs of the needy, the needy are expected to come to the church and once members, they may (if they are lucky) receive assistance in the bare necessities of life.
Jesus ministry can be summarized into two words.
COME and GO.
Blessings
QuotePAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70! How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)
From Willie.
All Israel is saved Willie, I agree. The real question then becomes who is the real Israel??
For are we not told by the apostles that not all Jews are Jews, (but some are of the synagogue of Satan), and not all Israel is Israel?!
Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:It is impossible now to determine who is of Israel via geneologies, therefore it is in vain to worry or concern ourselves with geneologies or 'family trees' now.
Furthermore,... to try to pinpoint the true Jerusalem from above by a title or cognomen such as 'Israel' or 'Jew' is utterly futile. Not by flesh and blood but by the Spirit of God.
Romans 2:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.We all must believe in Jesus to see salvation. Wether now (this life), or later (millinium), but prior to the second death (the destruction of this dimension and spirits not of him), otherwise we shall not see life.
Peace in Christ Jesus.
Hello SeekerSA,
Irrevocability
I guess our discussions deal with too many subjects at one time.
Why don't we narrow it down to "good tree-good fruit and evil tree-evil fruit" first.
Quote------------------------------
The gifts of salvation are irrevocable and in spite of our weaknesses God will and can still use
those that choose to operate/be used in the gifts.
Unquote----------------------------
Yes, salvation is irrevocable. Why? Because saved ones are re-born as good trees.
So good trees will bear good fruits irrevocably for good.
This is the meaning of 'irrevocable' pertaining to the salvation.
But sorry to the evil trees!
They must be cut down and put into fire, as they would not bear good fruits also irrevocably.
Salvation and Condemnation
Jesus came to give us the salvation, but the salvation must entail the condemnation by nature.
So the salvation has both sides, salvation on the front and condemnation on the reverse side.
Salvation can not stand alone without condemnation, as the light can not exist without the darkness.
Deep thoughts are invited herein.
Let's look at the verses below :
[John 3:17-18]
17/ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
18/ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Here above, believers are saved, non-believers are condemned.
To be frank, the condemnation of non-believers is brought by whom? By Jesus.
We need not to try to beautify Jesus out of vain loyalty, even ignoring the truth.
Here non-believers refers to the evil trees,
and they are self righteous pious people in the church as you stated.
Those who find themselves condemned by Jesus, the Word,
do not try to make excuses, but repent! Then they will live and be saved.
To those that repent, therefore, Jesus' condemnation worked as the salvation.
So let's do not dismiss the condemnations by Jesus.
Welcome and thank them for giving us opportunity of repentance
which will lead us to the salvation.
Good tree-Good fruit, Evil tree-Evil fruit
Quote-----------------------
As for Good or bad trees I think we can be both, when operating on a Sunday
you can be a good tree but revert to a bad tree the other six days of the week.
My views go a bit deeper than just a few proof texts and we need to see the whole scripture
and not just the parts of certain passages.
Unquote-------------------
As I mentioned earlier I see it differently. The Monkey is monkey, the rabbit is rabbit.
The Monkey cannot change himself to the rabbit by acting rabbit. The monkey cannot be a part-time rabbit.
So once good tree, he is good tree 7days a week and forever irrevocably.
The sinner sins. He sins forever.
In order not to sin, the sinner should be cut down and be re-born as the righteous.
Jesus came to do this for us.
"Good tree-Good fruit, Evil tree-Evil fruit" truth will go in harmony with the rest of the passages
of the scripture. As such, if we understand this,
our eyes will be opened to the rest of the passages, too.
Best Regards,
Chung
Hi Chung
There are parallel texts to the fruit trees that we can discuss later, I want to touch on this bit.
Quote from: 70sevensHere above, believers are saved, non-believers are condemned.
To be frank, the condemnation of non-believers is brought by whom? By Jesus.
We need not to try to beautify Jesus out of vain loyalty, even ignoring the truth.
Using my NKJV out of preference;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Yes up to here there is an automatic condemnation. But what is this condemnation?
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the (1)Light has come into the world, and (2)men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 (3)But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God. 1. Light has come into the world
2. Men love darkness - because their deeds evil - do not come to the light lest they be exposed
3. Practices truth, comes to the light - revealed - HAVING BEEN THE WORKS OF GOD
I am not playing with semantics here. Do men really hate light and prefer darkness literally? No! So what does it mean? It describes our carnality and I think I or others have touched on this, man does not seek out the things of God naturally. - FACT
Those practicing truth do not mind having their works revealed but read carefully whose works they are, the are of God and not of man.
The light coming into the world is Jesus yes, you and I will agree on this however, man will not seek out Jesus naturally, that is a work of the Father who must do the dragging FIRST.
Now as there is no single solution of how we get saved i.e. A happens then B happens then C and so on. For each one it is unique how we "find Jesus" however, it is not us that find Him, it is the Father that finds us. In the dragging process, at the end of the day, light is revealed and essentially we accept as we have no real choice in the matter. THIS IS ALL THE WORK OF OUR FATHER.
Even in your own conversion pre-process, if you think back, that which happened was not of your own doings.
Look at the conversion of Saul. Was he on his way to seek out Jesus on the road to Damascus? I don't think so.
Paul's conversion was the closest we have to a model of conversion, admittedly, his was radical but even ours is also radical to a similar degree.
In almost all testimonies, the common theme is that there was circumstances and/or a desire, an emptiness which prompted the seeking out. Who do you think controls those circumstances, that emptiness, that desire? You? God?
Things happen and eventually when the light is revealed, we can only accept it, we cannot reject it. We have no choice in the matter, the conviction is so strong and at that time saying NO seems ludicrous.
So salvation is not of ourselves it is of God's will.
Why does God not draw all men?
There are two roads, the narrow road, and the wide road. Traditionally the wide road is the highway to Eternal Torment. No it is not. We all end up in hell (the grave). It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgement. No there is no rapture, that is a lie of the devil himself and many Christians have been falsely led to believe this myth for over 2 centuries. Want to find out more about it? Read
here.
The narrow road is for the few chosen.
I am sorry if it seems I cannot stay on topic but these are all interrelated.
Back to the trees
By their fruits you shall know them.
Your view and mine are both acceptable and we can agree to disagree at this point. We need to look at another allegory. The vine, being grafted into and being pruned.
Even as believers, there is tares that grow up with us. We are grafted into the vine (Israel) and are being pruned.
Now what happens in the natural? A vine if left unpruned will grow wild and the fruit it bears will be substandard. The vine-dresser trims off the dead-wood so that new can shoot and from that, excellent fruit comes forth. The dead wood is that which will bear no "good fruit" and it can also be yesteryear's revelation. The process is ongoing and only the dead-wood is trimmed off.
Likewise, when seed is sown, there are tares and wheat. Tares is a crop that looks similar to wheat in all aspects until the head matures. Wheat naturally bows the head before harvest whereas the tares remain upright.
In both these scenarios, it is not an us and them as it is commonly taught, it is an us and us.
We all have dead wood and tares and these need to be pruned and/or uprooted and thrown into the fire/destroyed.
Like I said earlier, one cannot discuss or base a theology around one or two scriptures.
One of the hardest things to let go of is the "us and them" thinking and adopt a "we" thinking.
If my friend Hell is real, the burning version, why are not all Christians actively warning people of this impending horror that awaits them? Surely, our lifestyles, cars, Fancy houses et al. mean little than converting all to this realisation?
Ask anyone who has tried street evangelism. Why do they give up?
If you want to know how the ministry of an evangelist works, study Philip's ministry. He was always sent by the Holy Spirit.
Blessings
QuoteIn both these scenarios, it is not an us and them as it is commonly taught, it is an us and us.
:thumbsup:
Blessings
Taffy
Hi SeekerSA,
Jesus condemns God???
Your NKJV scripture also says that there is condemnation :
[Joh 3:19-21]
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the (1)Light has come into the world,
and (2)men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 (3)But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist,
having been worked in God.
Here, we see the same principle of trees.
Evil deed doers =love darkness = evil trees = condemnation
Truth doers (workers in God) = love light = good trees= salvation
However, strangely enough, you ascribe this Jesus' condemnation to GOD.
Why? GOD did not draw the non-believers to Jesus, and yet Jesus condemns those.
Thus, Jesus condemns the work of GOD and Jesus condemns God Himself, according to your logic.
Please tell me if I am mistaken.
Just for your information, I did not state my views yet on the subject like
'what is the condemnation', 'what is the eternal torment', 'or rapture', etc.
So kindly do not carry on your sayings based on the assumption
that I have traditional thinking about these issues.
At the moment, let us just see what scripture says here.
Regards,
Chung
Luke 10:25-28 Love God,and love your nieghbor
Luke 18:18-22 Do not commit adultry,Do not murder,Do not steal,Do not bear false witness,Honor your father and your mother,Sell Everything and distribute it to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven!
Luke 14:26-33 Hate your father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters,yes and even his own life he cannot be my disiple!Whoever doesnt bear his own cross,and come after me,cant be my disciple!
John 6:53-54 Eat his flesh and drink his blood and have eternal life!
Matthew 18:2-3 Unless you become like a children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!
John 3:3 Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God!
Matthew 5:20 Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!
John 3:16 Whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life!
Heres the way I see it!
Step 1,Love everyone
Step 2,Sell everything
Step 3,Hate everyone,and bear your own cross
Step 4,Eat flesh and drink blood
Step 5,Be a little child
Step 6,Be born again
Step 7,Follow over 600 OT laws
Step 8,Believe in Jesus
Now Jesus is God and God is perfect I would think that every time someone asked him how to get to heaven he would give the same answer every time and how can anyone follow these things?
Hi,
I wonder whether you are saying this based on your life or based on your bible study.
Have you been leading those life?
Also have you been praying to God in doing those works and even in everyday life?
Then for how long?
Regards
Hello Sarah,
Please stick around. I want to talk to you.
Let me finish 101 things first, then will go to 201.
In Chirst,
Chung
I'm still here... :icon_jokercolor:
QuoteHeres the way I see it!
Step 1,Love everyone
Step 2,Sell everything
Step 3,Hate everyone,and bear your own cross
Step 4,Eat flesh and drink blood
Step 5,Be a little child
Step 6,Be born again
Step 7,Follow over 600 OT laws
Step 8,Believe in Jesus
Now Jesus is God and God is perfect I would think that every time someone asked him how to get to heaven he would give the same answer every time and how can anyone follow these things?
That response sounds a little bitter. Iv'e felt that way too before...."God if you want it to be clear then write clearer!" Iv'e yelled before hurling the bible across the room.
Hi Sarah,
Thank you for staying around.
And also for the frank expression that my response sounded bitter.
Sorry for that.
I feel your warm-heartedness, and I sense that here almost everybody has such feeling.
In fact, I also have same feeling in mind. Sure God also sympathizes.
We wish to love our neighbors, caring and comforting each other in the name of Jesus like this case.
Good. We have to do this, and we are doing so as much as possible.
That's how we lead our life as pious Christians in general.
But that's not all.
In fact, Jesus is hidden to the eyes of those believers yet.
In order to get the true salvation, we have to get the true revelation of Jesus.
You said earlier that you wanted to see Him in me.
Yes, let me explain HIM who is in me for this case.
My bitterness came from the sincere love and was inevitable.
I wished to see whether someone reached the time when he could meet Jesus.
My response was given with that point in mind, so maybe it sounded bitter.
But if the one is really in need to meet Jesus such bitterness cannot be an obstacle.
On the contrary,
the bitterness would work as a tester for him whether he really wanted to know Jesus.
If someone desperately wanted Jesus, he would come to Him in spite of the bitterness.
You will recall the story of Canaan Woman in Matthew Chapter 15.
She wanted her demon-possessed daughter healed so desperately,
and asked Jesus for healing.
But Jesus said unto her that "it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."
I guess this response is bitterer.
But she said "Truth, Lord: Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
And yes, her daughter was healed by Jesus.
Spiritually, we all have daughters like this in our life.
If someone feel so desperate, he will come to Jesus regardless of all kinds of obstacles.
And he will have his daughter cured finally.
If we meet Jesus, we should not expect His tender-heartedness all the time.
Look at those disciples. They had to face the rebukes of Jesus almost everyday.
I am showing who HE really is.
This is HE who is in me for now.
God bless.
Chung
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:
Quote from: willieHPAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70! How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)
Quote from: PTAll Israel is saved Willie, I agree. The real question then becomes who is the real Israel??
For are we not told by the apostles that not all Jews are Jews, (but some are of the synagogue of Satan), and not all Israel is Israel?!
(In this instance I will name the verses you refer to, but in the future if you wish to discuss with me, please name your references or you will not get a response)...
(Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9).... I believe these two verses are your references... :Chinscratch:
In my opinion the first question to be answered should be: WHAT is SATAN? The Hebrew word SATAN means
ADVERSARY...
The Jews which say that are Jews and are NOT are of the synagogue (assembly/church/spiritual understanding and teaching) of the ADVERSARY...
ISRAEL is the name given to the PEOPLE of GOD... His ELECT... and they cannot be both the PEOPLE of GOD representing Him, ...and PEOPLE of ADVERSITY, representing IT... There are ADVERSE people in the "church" today... which claim to bring the GOSPEL, but instead, line it with MORE BAD NEWS than GOOD... that they might UPHOLD their, (here it comes, ready or not!) ...
TRADITION!
If one is named of the synagogue of satan, they are named as ADVERSARY to the PEOPLE of God... Peter was addressed as SATAN by CHRIST... does that mean that PETER ...IS... SATAN, ...PT? Of course he isn't... and neither are many of those which are named JEWS, ...actually true followers of GOD... rather they persist in their
TRADITION, ...which is ADVERSE (satan) to God...
CHRIST named the PHARISEES as such (Mt 15:6 / Mk 7:13) when He noted that they UPHELD their
TRADITIONS above the Word of GOD, and in doing so, rendered the Word of GOD to be of none effect (neutralized/powerless) in their experience...
This is not to say that GOD had decided to exclude these Pharisees from SALVATION, for PAUL also said: BLINDNESS in PART [pharisee's and their followers] is happened in ISRAEL... so ISRAEL was named BLIND to CHRIST and to His Saving effort,
for the moment... and are TEMPORARILY of the organization/church or synagogue of the
ADVERSARYQuote from: PTRomans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
It is impossible now to determine who is of Israel via geneologies, therefore it is in vain to worry or concern ourselves with geneologies or 'family trees' now.
Let's backtrack a taste... the 2 referenced Scriptures are NOTED in a Book of SYMBOLISM... which means they are not to be understood as "
literal"...
Your observance appears to be
literal here PT, because of the intermingling of races, the bloodlines are obscured or lost... that does not mean that GOD does not have TRACK of them... they are just obscured or lost to you, me or any other human observer...
Quote from: PTFurthermore,... to try to pinpoint the true Jerusalem from above by a title or cognomen such as 'Israel' or 'Jew' is utterly futile. Not by flesh and blood but by the Spirit of God.
Otay! :wacko2:
Quote from: PTRomans 2:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
We all must believe in Jesus to see salvation.
ALL will bro... :grouppray: :declare:
EVERY knee shall bow and TONGUE confess... every "BELIEVER" was a "NON-BELIEVER" prior to GOD's Revelation of CHRIST in their lives... :dontknow:
Peace... :high5:
In
JESUS
...willieH :bgdance:
Hey 70sevens,
I thought Locoman sounded bitter....sorry for the confusion.
QuoteIf we meet Jesus, we should not expect His tender-heartedness all the time.
Look at those disciples. They had to face the rebukes of Jesus almost everyday.
I am showing who HE really is.
This is HE who is in me for now.
When I say I need to see Christ in others...it isn't a nice person for the sake of being nice....but a people who allow the Spirit of God to speak through them. The words spoken are not intellectual knowledge but
living words. You gave the illustration of the woman with the demon-possessed daughter to show what we must do to be healed/saved. That reminds me of the woman with the issue of blood and a preacher hammering away that we must 'press in'...pray, fast, tongues....guilt, guilt, guilt.
I think this topic is interesting because it hits a nerve. Iv'e been out of church for awhile now, I don't have the morning prayer I used to have, nor the bible study, nor do I communicate much with anyone who thinks outside the religious box built for them.
Awhile ago I felt so full of the 'fruits of the spirit'...love, joy, peace, etc., etc. And if the fruits of the spirit are 'being saved'...well then I guess I'm not right now. And I am concerned with how to be 'saved'. I don't believe in hell after-life, so that argument is moot to me, and it actally bores me. Salvation concerns me now....and the after-life...well that part is in the hands of a loving creator.
I want a tangible word if I'm doing something wrong, if it is a dry spell, whatever. I could provide the answer a dime a dozen out of my intellect, but what is the truth? If you don't have the fruits are you then not 'saved'? Or is saved a term that we are misconstruing? What is true salvation?
Love, Sarah
Dear Sarah,
I am afraid that we have some communication problems here.
First, Sorry for misunderstanding. I thought you were talking to me that I produced a bitter response.
Second, as for the Canaan woman case, I did not mean that we must do something to be healed/saved.
Let me explain this point to help your understanding.
For example, if God says to us
1)"Hungry person will do anything to fill his stomach."
This statement is not a commandment.
It is quite natural for the hungry person to do so.
Using your terms, he is not doing for the sake of doing.
He really does it. I did mean this.
But when we apply the above sentence to us,
we tend to read as 2) "We must do anything to fill our stomach"
Traditional preachers understand it as laws
and they are "hammering away that we must 'press in'" as you say.
Ironically,
you also construed what I said about Canaan woman as traditional preachers did.
In fact, even though you think that you have escaped from them,
but still you are in the same dimension with them.
Nevertheless, if someone understands it(1) as such(2) and act accordingly,
it is up to him and it is his share. God will wait until he realizes.
The point is here.
Are we hungry? Are we really hungry persons?
If yes, we will automatically and naturally do everything to fill, like Canaan woman.
Those deeds are in God's life circle. So we will get our stomach filled at last.
This is the meaning of the salvation, that is of God, not of our works.
If we are not hungry, then to our eyes the words of 1) would be read as "we must do anything to fill"
So we have been doing so eagerly. But these are not true deeds. It is a hypocrisy.
Without noticing this we are putting all our efforts to the salvation, in vain.
We will carry on these vain works/deeds until we realizes that we are in a wrong direction.
So the question is this :
Are we hungry really? Do we realize that we have demon-possessed daughter?
If not, let's wait until we find ourselves hungry, and of Canaan woman.
Then Jesus will be revealed to us, and be saved.
I feel the limitations to explain on on-line from the beginning.
If you are really interested in TRUE Salvation,
please take some time to read my posts done in discussion with SeekerSA from the start.
(Where has he gone now by the way, I wonder?)
If you can digest my sayings there,
then our communications would be a lot more easier.
I will give you more materials to you after that.
Quote------------------------
I think this topic is interesting because it hits a nerve. Iv'e been out of church for awhile now,
I don't have the morning prayer I used to have, nor the bible study, nor do I communicate much with
anyone who thinks outside the religious box built for them.
-------------------------------
Rather than being alone, I suggest you to go to Church and listen to what God says to your mind.
Even in traditional teachings, as you know, there are God's messages embedded.
And in God's time you will be led to the place you really want.
Quote-------------------------
Awhile ago I felt so full of the 'fruits of the spirit'...love, joy, peace, etc., etc.
And if the fruits of the spirit are 'being saved'...well then I guess I'm not right now.
And I am concerned with how to be 'saved'. I don't believe in hell after-life, so that argument is moot to me,
and it actually bores me.
Salvation concerns me now....and the after-life...well that part is in the hands of a loving creator.
-------------------------------
How about now? Do you have the "fruits of the spirit" still.
Or was it 'here-today gone-tomorrow' thing?
When you are saved, you will have the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit would be love, joy, peace, etc.
This salvation and Spirit are irrevocable.
I am not talking about after-life salvation. If in this sense, you are already saved.
I am not here to threaten people by saying ET and/or hell.
Rather, I am here to lead people to get out of there.
Quote-------------------------
I want a tangible word if I'm doing something wrong, if it is a dry spell, whatever.
I could provide the answer a dime a dozen out of my intellect, but what is the truth?
If you don't have the fruits are you then not 'saved'?
Or is saved a term that we are misconstruing? What is true salvation?
--------------------------------
Do not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.
Nevertheless, Jesus will come in a tangible way to an individual who has prodigal son's experience.
When Jesus comes, we then will know what is the salvation, what is the love, joy, peace, etc.
So meet the Jesus, that's the only solution. When He comes, He will explain everything to you.
[John 4:25-26]
25/ The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes,
he will explain everything to us."
26/ Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
I guess you are doing OK, being ripe (John 4:35).
It's time to meet Jesus.
I understand you already know Jesus more than anybody else does.
So you would say in mind 'Jesus again?'
Yes, we need to meet true Jesus.
By meeting true Jesus, we will be getting true salvation.
You are in this process, if you continue.
God bless.
QuoteIronically,
you also construed what I said about Canaan woman as traditional preachers did.
In fact, even though you think that you have escaped from them,
but still you are in the same dimension with them.
Nevertheless, if someone understands it(1) as such(2) and act accordingly,
it is up to him and it is his share. God will wait until he realizes.
I see what you mean. Hard to hear, but definity true.
QuoteHow about now? Do you have the "fruits of the spirit" still.
Or was it 'here-today gone-tomorrow' thing?
When you are saved, you will have the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit would be love, joy, peace, etc.
This salvation and Spirit are irrevocable.
I am not talking about after-life salvation. If in this sense, you are already saved.
I am not here to threaten people by saying ET and/or hell.
Rather, I am here to lead people to get out of there.
For years I have walked in joy, and peace with Him, and lately He is silent...and I hate it.
You spoke of evil and good trees....honestly that is confusing. So if I am a good tree, whatever I do is good, and if I am a bad tree whatever I do is evil....regardless of appearance?
QuoteDo not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.
this seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me. :sigh: ...again.
Quotethis seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me. ...again.
The Best Teacher I know of Sarah :icon_flower: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Blessings
Taffy
Dear Sarah,
1. Doing and Being
Quote-----------------------
You spoke of evil and good trees....honestly that is confusing.
So if I am a good tree, whatever I do is good,
and if I am a bad tree whatever I do is evil....regardless of appearance?
------------------------------
Yes,
That's what Jesus said, not me.
You would remember Jeremiah saying this :
[Jer 13:23]
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Why we do evil is not matter of doing, but matter of being.
Appearance?
Charity, prayer, fasting, donation, love, peace, non-robbery, good deeds, non-adultery, etc
Do you think these are good (fruits)?
No. It can be evil (fruits) according to the doers.
If these are done by Pharisees (evil trees), those are evil (Luke 18:11).
[Mat 6:1]
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them.
If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
They do acts of righteousness, and yet they are evildoers.
And what do you think of Jesus in the following cases?
"You snakes! You brood of vipers!"
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire."
Appearance wise, are those not evil?
Is HE good tree or evil tree in this case?
Is HE good tree but evil tree temporarily, as someone said?
This is not possible at all in the universe.
Jesus is good tree. So no matter how appearances look like, they are good.
All are done out of love to save people.
So is the man who belongs to HIM by born-again.
[1John3:9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2. Contradiction
Quote :70sevens:------------------------------
Do not try to recognize the salvation by itself, or by love, joy, peace.
As we have no eyes on that, so we cannot distinguish them.
We will only be going on an endless circle.
Let's try to recognize the salvation and/or fruits, by meeting Jesus.
But again, Jesus is not tangible either.
---------------------------------------------------
Quote : Sarah-----------------------------------
this seems to contradict the good/tree evil tree thing....
I guess I will need to have Jesus explain it to me. ...again.
---------------------------------------------------
I don't see contradiction. I already explained it there. Or do you mean otherwise?
Again,
the problem is that the spiritually blind men could not realize that they are blind.
So when they hear Jesus saying "Ye shall know them by their fruits"
They try to distinguish/know the fruits, but in vain.
They are forgetting that they are blind.
Contradiction comes from the legalistic eyes.
"Knowing the fruits" would be natural, if we are able to see.
So do not try to know, but try to see.
I am saying this to those who have ears to hear.
3. Darkness
Experience shows us that both traditional and UR teachings have failed
to open our spiritual eyes.
So we do not know yet where we are, where we are heading for during the course of salvation.
We do not know even whether we have to know these things.
We are in the total darkness.
We got to get out of there by following true Jesus.
4. Ask God
You said HE was silent lately. Do you know why?
HE wishes to humble you to listen to me.
Unless otherwise, out of pride being in HIS presence,
you would not want to listen to me, an unknown man from the East.
I would not ask you to believe me.
But you are kindly requested to ask God who is in you,
whether '70sevens' is sent by HIM, especially for you.
HE will respond one way or the other.
All the best,
I wanted to talk about the true Salvation by Jesus.
I was surprised that not many people here were enthusiastic to know about the salvation.
Presumably, their thinking was that they were saved already,
or would be saved ultimately even after the present life by the merciful God.
So 'being saved' is no more their concerns. They want to have no worries.
But without salvation, men are destined to feel fundamental lack in their life.
If we feel really the lack in our life we would not dilly-dally, saying salvation is up to God's draw.
I gather that UR believers had been threatened the by the Eternal Torment
at the traditional churches, and were fed-up.
They wanted to find ways and means to escape from it.
So they studied scriptures using Hebrew and Greek day after day to oppose the traditional teachings.
And came to the conclusion that no hell, no eternal torment, no condemnation, etc.
This way, they got rid of all the uncomfortable and evil aspects (,to their eyes,) of God in the scriptures,
leaving only the good and merciful aspects (,again to their eyes,) of God.
Thus, they have created one new God, a man-made UR God.
Even though men are born sinners,
UR God believers would not be borthered at all by that fact.
They study the bible out of curiosity, and/or for fun,
or sometimes for theological thesis.
The Scriptures are showing us 'One Person' who is already around us.
So when we read the scriptures we should meet 'a Person, Jesus'
rather than being indulged in bible-study itself.
[John 5:39-40]
39/ You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.
These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40/ yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Have you met Jesus in person through the Scriptures?
Or are you still looking for the profound meanings in there,
ignoring Jesus who is knocking on your mind.
Meet Jesus now, and be saved.
This is the God's draw.
Deuteronomy chapter 30
I suggest reading the entire chapter...out of every single version you can your hands on ....
and let the HOLY SPIRIT teach you...
not the desire to be 'one of the chosen'...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
I personally choose .....LIFE.....and i choose it for EVERYONE....not selectively...
i choose it for those that have commited crime against me and my loved ones too...
so that that criminal against GOD"S will, can be broken, changed, and restored in the love of GOD to the potential of God's desire for them....as worshippers...and servants in HIS kingdom.
Poetess?
o.k. I ask and hear nothing regarding who 490 is and if he has something for me....anyway I see great truth in many of your statements. What is the point of believing that God saves all if I am miserable...hearing nothing....seeing nothing....dead....or so it feels?
And yet I see many statements as not true....I should go to church when no church is to be found....me as somehow further spiritually...and ur as not true.
Am I to believe that if I were a 'good tree' that anything I do is o.k? I like to think that I am a good tree, but feel that as I sit here typing after 3 glasses of wine, and watching 3 small children who are watching t.v., I am by no means a 'good tree'.
And if I am an evil tree...well then every amount of love, and effort I have poured into these small ones is evil. It is hard for me to believe that I am one or the other. I know scipture probably contends with me, but let me speak to the one who wrote it....because I have a bone to pick with black and white...I'm a rather gray girl myself....but am willing to be proven wrong.
Love,
Sarah
QuoteHere, we see the same principle of trees.
Evil deed doers =love darkness = evil trees = condemnation
Truth doers (workers in God) = love light = good trees= salvation
Chung.
Good metaphor. I believe it regards who's spirit we are of (let us make man in OUR image...i.e. light or darkness).
The tree's are the spirits, the light and darkness of Elohim.
If we be from the Light, then our fruits will be good (and we will love Christ if/when we learn of him).
If we be of the darkness, we hate the Light (Christ), and our father is Satan (spiritually).
A good tree is not a bad tree.
Their spot is not our spot.
Their rock is not our rock.
Peace in Christ.
Hello,
Glad to have you back.
Quote------------------------------
What is the point of believing that God saves all
if I am miserable...hearing nothing....seeing nothing....dead....or so it feels?
--------------------------------------------------
That's it. Just I wanted to say to all around here.
If I am not saved, then what's the use of all being saved?
God wants only 'myself' be saved.
If I, myself, am saved, all will be saved, if we realize.
Quote----------------------------------------
And yet I see many statements as not true....I should go to church when no church is to be found....
me as somehow further spiritually...and ur as not true.
-----------------------------------------------
I knew that you took my statements selectively.
I did not say that by mistake.
Going to church will give you more opportunities to grow by fellowship, reading bible, praying, etc.,
even if that is traditional church.
Quote-----------------------------------------
And if I am an evil tree...well then every amount of love, and effort I have poured into these small ones is evil.
It is hard for me to believe that I am one or the other. I know scripture probably contends with me,
but let me speak to the one who wrote it....because I have a bone to pick with black and white...
I'm a rather gray girl myself....but am willing to be proven wrong.
--------------------------------------------------
As for the Good and Evil, I mentioned shortly earlier somewhere.
Our mankind's Good and Evil is what you and I commonly understand in this world.
It could be ethics and morals.
This is men's Good and Evil.
But there is God's Good and Evil.
God himself is Good.
[Mark 10:18]
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
God is the absolute 'good', and non-God is 'evil'.
'Good' is God, that is another expression of 'life'.
'Evil' is 'separation from the God', that is 'death'.
We should have bird's eye view on our life.
Think about the parable of the lost son. Luke Chapter 15, verses 11 onward.
When he was with his Father(God:Good) at home. He was a good tree.
When he went to far country leaving his Father(Good), since then he became Evil tree.
So whatever he does in far country is evil.
Think about Father's mind. Father wants to live with his son. But the son left the Father.
Apparently whatever, even worshiping the Father, the son does in far country is evil.
He is doing evil to his Father, dying there.
Only way to put an end to that evil is going back to his Father.
But unfortunately he does not want go back and does not know how to go back.
We are He. We all left our heavenly Father and came to this world.
By leaving the Father 'the life', we naturally are dead.
In this world, we try to do our good, but sometimes evil.
Be it good or evil, all are Evil to our God's eyes.
Because we left God, which is 'good' itself. So we are evil tree here in this world.
Now Jesus came.
What do you think HE would do to you?
May God bless.
I guess my statement above is insufficient for proper understanding of the spiritual world.
To help understanding,
I wish to post the spiritual meanings of the parable of the Lost Son in Luke 15 bit by bit.
The Parable of the Lost Son –Part 1
: Why men are Born as Sinners?
The parable of the lost son in Luke 15 dramatically shows a course in which a person meets Jesus Christ through true repentance. This parable hides profounder meanings than we generally know of it. Let's get started with Luke 15:11-19.
This parable is very common to most of people whether they are Christians or not. The famous painter Rembrandt painted a picture entitled "Returning of the Lost Son" in which the father receives the younger son. Many preachers uttered many times the love of the father who gladly accepted the younger son, by quoting this text. We generally become to be thankful to the father's forgiveness and everlasting love when we hear it. Some of us resolve to be obedient to their fathers.
However, this parable does not describe the father who welcomes the younger son with love even though he came back after having squandered his money in dissolute living. This parable speaks us the deep truth of life. That is, the younger son who returned to his father discloses what the true repentance towards God is, and the comparison of the younger son to the older son clearly uncovers the differences between the grace and the law.
Also, the course in which the younger son left the house of his father reveals the reason why Adam had to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbids, and the fundamental reason why his descendants had to live hard lives on this earth that produces thorns and thistles.
Every word and parable in the Bible is precious and valuable, and the parable of the lost son is the most precious and valuable one of them all. This ordinary parable has all the wonderful truths you could not find even if you had spent your whole life.
I will explain three major topics.
First, I will describe the fundamental reason why each person leaves God and is born to be a sinner by explaining the course in which the younger son leaves the house of the father.
Second, I will tell you what the true repentance is by quoting the return of the younger son.
Last, I will clarify the difference between the grace and the law (which is hard to understand) by comparing the older son who stayed home and the younger son.
First of all, we will study the reason why persons are born as sinners through the parable.
....Continued...
2.
Why are persons born as sinners?
First of all, we will study the reason why persons are born as sinners through the parable.
- Why did the younger son want to leave home?
Characters in this parable include a father, an older son, and a younger son. In this instance, the father symbolizes God, the home symbolizes the kingdom of God where God abides, and the older and younger sons symbolize Jesus believers who serve God as their Father. The believers can be divided into two groups: some believers belong to the older son group who did not leave home, and other believers belong to the younger son group who left home and came back home again.
The head of the home where the younger son lives is the father. The father as a head of household has the final decisions over all household affairs. The father decides the household affairs, big or small, such as deciding the place to put the chest of drawers, or fixing the time to have dinner. The sons must accept their father's decisions even though they don't agree to those decisions because they are not the head of the household. One optional way available to them when they don't agree with him, is to leave home.
The younger son in the parable made up his mind to leave. It was the younger son himself who decided to go out, considering that the father didn't told him to do so. He came into conflict with the life of being obedient to the father's headship. He disliked it. He was not in trouble with the father regarding such the trivial problems as positioning the chest of drawers or fixing the time to have dinner. Such problems are not so valuable or worthless as to be written in the Bible that has recorded the fundamental problems of life. The conflict with the father that caused the younger son to leave home was fundamental. We can read one example of that conflict in the latter part of the parable. When the younger son had returned home, the father gladly received him and they began to be merry. However, the older son who had been in the field got angry at his father's conduct. He thought that it was not right for his father to celebrate the brother who had run through his father's money with harlots. But, it is natural for the father to have festivities in that situation. He can make room for the older son for anything else, but except the present case. This conflict is very fundamental. The fundamental conflict can't be settled even though one of two parts has given room to the other part. It will remain still until it has been solved fundamentally.
The younger son wanted to be separated from his father and live an independent life instead of enduring it while undergoing the fundamental conflict. He thought it would be better for him if could live his own individual life, and he then came to a determination. He would have pondered many times until reaching that determination. He would have considered fears of facing the strange world after having left home, and would have also thought that it would not be easy to return home again for fear of losing his face. However, all these were not so serious as the life that is given under the dominion of his father.
The younger son was able to leave his father and be independent from his father by himself because of the wisdom he had. That is, he decided to leave home since he had wisdom by which he could do better and could lead a better life than his father had done. He tried to have the headship, being confident that his wisdom could compare with that of his father. The wisdom of the younger son is given by nature. The wisdom that the younger son had as a son of the father has the same quality as that of the father. Thus, they can be compared with each other. No housedog can rise in revolt against its lord and leave him because it has no wisdom and no power at all. We can conclude now that the younger son could have left home because he had wisdom.
- Adam's wisdom
The course for the younger son to leave home in Luke 15 matches the course for Adam to leave the garden in Eden in Genesis. The two courses are substantially the same. Many of us will now wonder how the lost son and Adam are connected, when I said that the parable of the lost son and the description on Adam contain the same message. We will find no connection between them if we read the Scriptures but only to catch superficial understanding. However, ponder them in detail and in depth, and you will know that the lost son is equal to Adam.
As the younger son left home because of the wisdom, Adam also left God because of the wisdom. Let me explain more of Adam' wisdom to you. God created Adam in His image, and Adam was a very wise creature after His likeness (Ezek 28:12). Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbade and left the garden in Eden that was God's dwelling place, and in this instance, the fundamental reason for him to eat the fruit was caused by the wisdom.
As to the course for Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent tempted the woman, she gave it to her husband, and he did eat. Because of the fundamental temptation by the serpent, Adam and the woman ate the fruit and walked on the way of disobedience. They would not have eaten if it had not been for the serpent.
What was the serpent that had led them to astray? The serpent in the Scriptures symbolizes wisdom.
Genesis 3:1 says:
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
In this instance, the term of 'crafty' is translated from the Hebrew word of "aruwm" which means 'wise' or 'prudent.' The word is negative when rendered "crafty (Job 5:12 or Job 15:5) and it is positive when rendered "prudent" (Prov. 12:16, 23). The word was naturally rendered in the negative since it was used to describe the serpent that is the common enemy (?) against all human beings. Therefore, it is rendered 'crafty' other than 'prudent.' Repeatedly, the original word "aruwm" can be rendered both in the positive and in the negative. The word in this text can be put into 'prudent' if we can get rid of our negative eyes on the serpent. Have I gone too far? The serpent was not created in the negative. No creatures in the world are absolutely negative, but they relatively look in the negative or positive. Jesus was not prejudiced against the serpent. He says it is the symbol of wisdom.
[Matt 10:16]
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
The serpent symbolizes wisdom in the Scriptures. Accordingly, we should read Genesis 3:1 as follows: "Now the serpent was wiser than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made" which mostly matches the biblical context.
The woman was tempted directly by the serpent, but I will call Adam to be representative of both Adam and the woman.
Spiritually, the woman and Adam are one.
The fact that Adam was tempted by the serpent symbolizing the wisdom reveals that he had wisdom. He agreed to what the external serpent said and then opened his heart since he had some factors of the serpent in him. Hence, there is no need to blame the serpent as it tempted the man. He opened his heart because he was connected to the serpent, and hence, it was Adam who was to blame.
Adam has the factors of the serpent since God created Adam to be wise. The wisdom is one of Adam's fundamental attributes inseparable from himself. If we think the serpent is a fundamentally wicked being, it is required for us to explain how the serpent was in the garden in Eden. However, there is no need to do so. The serpent is the wisdom Adam has in him. Therefore, where there is Adam, there is the serpent also, such as in heaven, on the earth, or in the garden in Eden.
Because Adam has wisdom, he comes to think of leaving the garden in Eden when God seems unacceptable to him. That wisdom is the question. Adam has secret confidence in him that he can do no less than God does and he can live a better life. He thinks in the same way as the lost son did before leaving the house of the father.
In this situation, Adam's wisdom whispers to him as follows.
"Do you know why God forbade you to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? It is because God was wary of your being like Himself, knowing both good and evil, when you eat it."
This dialogue is written in Genesis 3:
[Gen 3:4-6]
4/ "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
5/ "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6/ When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
If Adam had thought that his wisdom would never reach that of God, the serpent would have failed to tempt him. He would have firmly refused the suggestion by the serpent.
"How could I...? I can never be like God even if I eat something better than the fruit of that tree."
However, Adam had wisdom, and he accordingly concluded it would be possible for him to struggle with God. He ate the fruit of that tree after a long thought (Gen. 3:6) and left the garden in Eden. God said nothing to Adam about his leaving Eden when he had eaten the fruit of it. But, he had to leave if he had eaten it. When Adam pondered God's commandment and he finally ignored it, it expresses Adam's decision that he knows more than God does and is smarter than He is. This decision shows the separation from God because there can be no two masters in a family. Of course, the separation from God is caused by some more reasons in addition to Adam's having eaten it. The problem of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is only one example that shows Adam's fundamental conflicts towards God.
Anyway, Adam was separated from God in the garden in Eden and had to live his own life (in this world).
Continued/
I hadn't thought of the serpent as man's wisdom before, but it makes sense. I have always had a hard time thinking that man was made 'perfect' since something within him caused Him to disobey God....it wasn't the external snake, but the one within that saw that the tree was good and wanted to be like God.
QuoteNow Jesus came.
What do you think HE would do to you?
The scripture comes to mind of an ax being laid to a root. Although I know Jesus was speaking of God cutting of Israel...it could also mean that the holy spirit cuts off the wisdom of Adam....Ahhhh! :sigh: It's good thing.. :cloud9:
Hi,
I have stopped posting for a while,
as it seemed to me that nobody was interesed.
Glad to hear from you.
Quote-----------------------
it wasn't the external snake, but the one within that saw
that the tree was good and wanted to be like God.
----------------------------
Sinners are represented by their internal snake (wisdom).
That's why Jesus said to Pharisees
"Snakes!".
Soon you will realize all the fights in the scriptures are not one of the followings.
God vs Israel
God vs Pharisees
God vs Non-believers
God vs Anti-Christ
God vs Devil
But, the fight is "God vs Me".
Of course, who dares to confornt with God?
We, believers, are doing it here now, not knowing.
Let us get more light by continuing the Parable of the Lost Son Part 1.
3.
The course for Adam to leave the garden in Eden matches the course for the lost son to leave home.
- Father who permitted his younger son to leave
The father permitted his younger son to leave home since the son was eager to do so. No father would allow his son to leave, without hesitation. He would have dissuaded his younger son from leaving home with all his heart since he already knew that the son would have a very hard time of it there. However, it will be no longer useless to persuade the son once he has made up his mind to be independent of his father. The father cannot catch the son's heart even if the father could have caught his body by force. The father let him go unavoidably since he had no other better way.
However, the father now letting him go, has one hope. That is, the father hopes that the younger son will come back home after going to a far country and experiencing true conditions of the country. With this hope in his heart, the father permits the younger son to go.
- God who permitted Adam to leave
We will now read the text in which Adam leaves the garden in Eden, which is comparatively quoted with the parable of the lost son. Genesis Chapter 3 records Adam as follows:
[Gen 3:17-19]
17/ To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18/ It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19/ By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
We generally know that Adam was expelled from the garden in Eden because he had disobeyed God's commandment. But, it is not true. Adam who was born in the garden in Eden longed for the unknown world he had never undergone. The unknown world means the world in which the humans left God and they are disobedient to the commands of God. Adam who never experienced that world will be naturally attracted by it.
It may look good if Adam only stays in the garden in Eden, but it has a fundamental problem. If he only lives in the garden in Eden, he cannot recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden. He has to undergo another world so as to recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden. It's a dilemma. For example, we cannot recognize light as light if there is only light in this world. Light will be light when there is darkness. Adam who was created in the first place lived his life only in the garden in Eden, and he accordingly knew no joy given in the garden in Eden. Adam will recognize the garden in Eden as the garden in Eden when he has lived a life in the world that he had never lived in after having left the garden.
God knows that Adam will be completed after he left God. And God looked on when Adam left the garden in Eden. In this instance, God's looking on has following meanings: First, God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden in Eden so that He provided a fundamental cause for Adam to leave the garden in Eden. Second, God waited while Adam was eating the fruit, and He appeared when he's done with it. If God really wanted to prevent him from eating it, He would not have put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden in Eden or He would have placed a sword whirling and flashing near the tree so that Adam may not hang around it. However, God didn't do so. In this context, God opened the way for Adam to eat the fruit and He looked on.
Of course, there can be an excuse in that all of them were given to test the free will of Adam. But, if we think of it further, we'll find soon that this case does not correspond to the free will. If he has a free will, he has freedom to eat the fruit and also has freedom to not eat it. God gave him this freedom. But, if God punishes him and drives him out of the garden in Eden because he has eaten it, what is given to him is not a free will but a half will to not eat the fruit. Therefore, the explanation given to testing the free will of Adam has contradiction in itself.
Does God have any reason to test the free will of human beings and lead them into the lives full of trials? God does not test us for the purpose of testing us, but He raises us with His power of life. The case in which Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil belongs to the course of creation. It does not mean that Adam disobeyed for a time.
If we have come to understand the above description as it is, we will no longer make a meaningless resolution as follows:
"I will never eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which Adam ate."
As I told you, we were born in the world because we already had eaten it. So, our determination to not eat it has no meaning at all, as we've already eaten the fruit.
- Our question: "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to my will..."
In general, it is hard for us to admit the fact that every one eats the fruit and is then born in the world, because we think we have never seen it nor eaten it. However, it is true that each of us ate it. The Scriptures testify it from the story of Adam as we already read in the above.
A human being does not begin his existence when he is born. The human beings were spiritual beings each of who was an Adam and who stood near God called as Eden. Each of them who were once in the garden in Eden came to this world with a body. Therefore, our souls already existed before we have the body. So, our origin we belong to is not this material world, but the kingdom in heaven.
It is meaningless to say, "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." If you deny having eaten it, it means that you are saying, "I'm no man," because the human being is to eat it as an inevitable consequence.
- Far country
Let's get back to the parable of the lost son.
The younger son leaves the house of his father and goes to a far country. The younger son and the father who is the head of the household were connected in life when he was in the house of the father. But, the ruler and the younger son are connected with each other by the law in the far country. You will know the difference between the relation connected in life and the other relation connected by the law. The former one is connected with love, and the latter one is connected by give-and-takes that show another phase of the law.
The house of the father in the parable symbolizes the kingdom of God where we abide with Him.
[Ps 23:6]
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
On the contrary, the far country symbolizes the world where as many younger sons as having left the house of the father live their lives by maintaining the system of the world by their own law. It symbolizes the present world where we now live. The Scriptures point out that the ruler of the world is the devil. The devil said tempting Jesus:
[Luke 4:5-6]
5/ The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
6/ And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
[I Jn 5:19]
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
As read above, the devil says this world has been given to him. John says the same point. The world in which we are living has been given to the evil one, which is frequently found in the Bible. The world in this text does not represent the material world we can see, but it indicates the world system that the human beings having left God created with their ideal, wisdom, and efforts. This world is created and controlled by those having left God by making laws and rules, for the purpose of realizing their ideal. Therefore, the real one that rules the world is the human beings who have left God. The Scriptures reveal that the human beings who control this world system are those who are evil.
The persons living in this world are destined to be exploited, suppressed, curbed, robbed, and destroyed by laws because they are connected with each other by the laws in this world whereas the persons in the kingdom of God are connected in life. The laws lead us to death. Both the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11) and the younger son in the parable of the lost son represent those who lived in the world of law, failed to survive, and finally died. The younger son longed for this world and came into it all unawares. We also came into this world with the same mind as that of him. We are the younger sons who naturally left the house of the father and set off for a far country.
End of Part 1/
QuoteAs I told you, we were born in the world because we already had eaten it. So, our determination to not eat it has no meaning at all, as we've already eaten the fruit.
- Our question: "I've never eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to my will..."
In general, it is hard for us to admit the fact that every one eats the fruit and is then born in the world, because we think we have never seen it nor eaten it. However, it is true that each of us ate it. The Scriptures testify it from the story of Adam as we already read in the above.
There was another thread that dealt with the idea of pre-existence. I find it difficult to support pre-existence scriptually. The evidence you present seems very subjective. I do believe that it is true that each of us has eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because of pre-existence but because we are 'naked' and carnel. We were born, and then we eat. We are subjected to futility not willingly, but by the will of the Father that desires to grow us up into His sons.
I'm not sure where you are going with this...but toward the end of your speaking it sounds like an 'us vs them'. When in reality it is humanity verses sin.
-sorry I don't post often, but when I get home from work I can't even function mentally after 8 hours teaching 7 and 8 year olds.....I crash on the couch and zone out. So the weekend is my time to chat.
Love, Sarah
Hi,
Surely, I guess you require some rest.
Quote-----------------------------
I find it difficult to support pre-existence scriptually. The evidence you present seems very subjective.
I do believe that it is true that each of us has eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
not because of pre-existence but because we are 'naked' and carnel. We were born, and then we eat.
We are subjected to futility not willingly,
but by the will of the Father that desires to grow us up into His sons.
----------------------------------
I don't remember saying we ate good and evil fruit because of pre-existence.
Please check.
Regarding the pre-existence, think about Adam.
He was in Eden with God,
after eating good and evil fruit he came out of Eden, being separated from God.
As for Adam who is 'out of Eden', he pre-existed in Eden.
Adam is us, i.e. each individual.
'Out of Eden' is the place where we live in now - this sinful world.
So 'pre-existence of each individual' in Eden is the statement of the scriptures.
How can it be very subjective, I wonder?
Earlier, you mentioned that it was difficult to accept us as evil trees.
So I wanted to show you how we came this world as evil trees.
When Jesus comes, HE will cut down evil trees, which is us,
and will make us resurrected as good trees in this present world.
After that, whatever we do will be good.
This is the salvation that I am talking about.
I know all of you are saved, and will surely go to heaven afterlife.
Everybody is saved in accord with his own standard in believing Jesus.
But what standard are we talking about?
According to the scriptures,
saved person,
he is joyful always and he loves neighbor as himself.
He is not TRYING to be joyful.
He is not TRYING to love.
But, he is 'joy' itself and he is 'love' itself.
So, he is joyful always, and he loves neighbor always.
This will be the fruit that comes from Jesus inside of us.
By this fruit, we will know whether we are good trees or evil trees.
Sorry to trouble busy you.
However, knowing Jesus should not be a side job for anybody.
If you are not so keen about this issue, let us close our dialogues here.
Thanks a million.
God bless.
Quote from: 70sevens on October 10, 2007, 12:17:31 PM
I wanted to talk about the true Salvation by Jesus.
I was surprised that not many people here were enthusiastic to know about the salvation.
Presumably, their thinking was that they were saved already,
or would be saved ultimately even after the present life by the merciful God.
So 'being saved' is no more their concerns. They want to have no worries.
99% of us come out of traditional churches and 99% are B-A believers. I did say to you it would not be looked upon lightly if you came here on a mission to save us. 99% of us came out of the harlot as there is no life there for more growth. 99% of the mainstream church has only an understanding of what has been handed down and many do not or cannot explain their belief, they believe blindly. God has no direct relationship with members and most are pew warmers. 99% here are those that have rejected the mainstream version as they have been enlightened to a deeper walk with God. Many of those we encounter on other forums cannot even defend their beliefs when challenged. Almost all just have fire insurance, nothing more.
QuoteBut without salvation, men are destined to feel fundamental lack in their life.
If we feel really the lack in our life we would not dilly-dally, saying salvation is up to God's draw.
And most feel this lack in mainstream Churchianity. The key is getting into a one-one relationship with the Father and not rely on 2nd hand revelation. This is what God wants.
Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened is something we do post the salvation process and it is a process not an event
QuoteI gather that UR believers had been threatened the by the Eternal Torment
at the traditional churches, and were fed-up.
They wanted to find ways and means to escape from it.
So they studied scriptures using Hebrew and Greek day after day to oppose the traditional teachings.
You gather wrong. ET for most has just been illogical as even children cannot equate a Loving God with a Vengeful God. He is a Loving God, and yes He chastises those he loves, and that is all creation but His worst Judgement is death not ET.
Yes we now study the scripture with a deeper probe rather than just accepting blindly what is proffered from the pulpits of men. satan has the church bound in religion and are of little or no effect to the whole of mankind. We oppose tradition as tradition is man-made an not from God. Just like Jesus was opposed to traditions and self righteous pious attitudes of the Pharisees, we too are of the same mind.
I am not sure if you read other threads here, sure does not seem like it but there are many here with far deeper spiritual understanding of God and God's word than what we find in the church of today. Today's church, stay on the nipple of their pastors desiring only milk. God is far more than just a simple sinner's prayer and regular attendance of church.
QuoteAnd came to the conclusion that no hell, no eternal torment, no condemnation, etc.
This way, they got rid of all the uncomfortable and evil aspects (,to their eyes,) of God in the scriptures,
Came to the conclusion through study and not of personal opinion. The challenge to you is prove ET. There is a board (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=25.0) where you can do this
Quoteleaving only the good and merciful aspects (,again to their eyes,) of God.
Thus, they have created one new God, a man-made UR God.
Quite the opposite. The harlot has created God in man's image, we have discovered the true Father's Love and heart.
QuoteEven though men are born sinners,
UR God believers would not be bothered at all by that fact.
They study the bible out of curiosity, and/or for fun,
or sometimes for theological thesis.
Again you judge wrongly, why would anyone not saved bother studying the bible. Yes we are curious, so should we be. And yes it is fun to learn more and more of our Father. We have a number of pastors on this forum who have done the seminary bit and have taught in churches, nowadays, the church does not want to hear of an all Loving God, they have gotten so used to being told they are special and cannot tolerate it when told all mankind is special, even Gays, Prostitutes and even Sinners. Have we got it wrong? What did Jesus do? Where was His ministry focused? To the sick and the needy. Did he ever judge the sick and needy? No.
QuoteThe Scriptures are showing us 'One Person' who is already around us.
So when we read the scriptures we should meet 'a Person, Jesus'
rather than being indulged in bible-study itself.
Again this is made from a false assumption. Because we do not believe as you do, we are therefor automatically not saved in your opinion, you sound like a Pharisee although that may not be your intent.
Quote[John 5:39-40]
39/ You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.
These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40/ yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
EXACTLY
QuoteHave you met Jesus in person through the Scriptures?
Or are you still looking for the profound meanings in there,
ignoring Jesus who is knocking on your mind.
YES, and there are profound meanings, that is why we discuss.
QuoteMeet Jesus now, and be saved.
This is the God's draw.
We have TY very much.
I read your other posts wrt the prodigal son. There are three stories. Tell us about about the son who stayed behind. Tell us about the Father's love. Once you understand the other two sides of the same coin, then maybe you too will understand why we believe as we do.
UR is not a religion, we have no creed, we have no Statement of Faith. We do not put God in a box, we follow no one man's teachings only Jesus.
Before you level accusations like a Pharisee again, I suggest you read up on the other boards. Once you do, you will get a better idea where we come from and what we believe.
Many here still attend regular churches, for others, this is where we fellowship.
Blessings
QuoteI don't remember saying we ate good and evil fruit because of pre-existence.
Please check.
not
because of pre-existence but
when we pre-existed. Isn't this what you think? .....
QuoteAs for Adam who is 'out of Eden', he pre-existed in Eden.
It was in Eden that he ate the fruit.
QuoteSorry to trouble busy you.
However, knowing Jesus should not be a side job for anybody.
If you are not so keen about this issue, let us close our dialogues here.
Thanks a million.
I don't know if it is the medium of internet, or language, but this statement sounded a little judgemental. :dontknow: I don't think that because it is hard to get online during the week that equates to making 'knowing Jesus' a 'side job'. I'm just explaining why it takes so long to respond.
I see many truths in what you say...and yet many things you say sound accusatory and presumptious of the people here. For instance, many of the things Seeker quoted.
My communication with you has been positive in that it has caused me to look more inward in this busyness of life, and again realize salvation in now and nothing else matters. I liked your analogy that it is the hungry man that eats...and that was what God was doing to me. I am beginning to feel His stirrings again and I believe He used our dialogue to do that.
Love, Sarah