The Harshness of God

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi claypot,

I know a thing or two about mental suffering, because I have schizophrenia. As far as I am concerned, I can bear it as long as I have a secure hope that one day the pain will be over. This is right where UR steps in, and gives me this hope. It even stretches out to all of mankind, so this worry about others is taken care of too.

The problem is an ET view of things. If you believe that salvation is conditional in the sense that you can ultimately screw it up and loose it, THEN things get dicey. Because THEN you may end up without a hope, and without a God you can trust in to be your compassionate companion through life.

But in a sense you are right, God IS tough. He certainly didn't create a rosy and soft world. Some philosophers call this the problem of evil, and say it would pose an argument against faith. Yet, despite there being evil, there is also much good happening. So we not only have a problem of evil, we also have a problem of good. Think of nature in spring. Think of mother love. Think of little sparrows in their nests. Think of dolphins in the sea.

I would also think of this: when we were not believers yet we didn't complain much about our difficulties in life. We bore them. We handled them. We lived with them. But now that we know about God we complain. Suddenly that cold you just caught feels unbearable because you feel God could take it away any moment, but doesn't. Suddenly you feel treated unjustly. That's impatience, and we all need the gift of patience which the Holy Spirit gives to us.

But think of this: if one man suffers, why should not all people suffer sometimes? If there was only one man who ever suffered, what would that mean in terms of justice if he had stayed the only one? I know this is tough thinking.

At any case, what Paul writes is true: suffering produces something good in our characters. I mean, I see it in myself, I have become more gentle since I got accustomed to my schizophrenia. I could relate more. We humans relate most with each other through our happiness and through our pain. If I had never suffered, I would not know what pain is, and could not really relate to people who are in pain.

Our problem rests in often being unable to take the whole cup of life, with both its good and the bad, out of the hand of God. I've not always been managed to do it, but sometimes I have also been able to thank God for my problems and issues, and when I managed it the pain quickly got into the background. When you are suffering, what you do not need is a struggle with your Maker. That only makes the whole thing really unbearable.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi reFORMer... :hithere:

Bless your heart for your compassionate words below!  :friendstu:

Consider all the insects.  It has been estimated there are over 100,000 stars visible in the sky on a very clear night.  It is also thought that there are over 100,000 species of insects for every one of those stars and there are innumerable members to each species. Mostly these insects have short lives.  They have eyes that see, they taste and have little minds that remember, hands and antenna that feel, and hearts that feel desire for their mates. They are eaten alive by other creeping things.  They lose limbs, pieces are bit out of them, they suffer illnesses, fall subject to old age and die.  Theirs is a suffering way.  I don't understand why God likes so many insects or why He has them sufferring.  What does the manifestation of the sons (legal heirs) of God have to do with it?  Will they somehow at least improve the situation?  Maybe they have another nature appearing in the resurrection but for now God made them to suffer.  He sees through all of their eyes, He knows what they think and feel altogether. As He gives them existence, He is experiencing everything of their lives.  Why their pain?

You know, I have considered this.  In fact, I do not kill insects, even when they enter my home (unless they attack me)... I try to capture them and release them outdoors.  At first my wife thought I was nuts, but I insisted to her that these each had their own lives given by God, and it was not right for me to take their lives if at all possible.  If say a wasp got aggressive and tried to sting me, then he wages war against me in my own home, and must suffer the reactions to his aggression...

I believe that All things which have life, suffer on earth.  And it is because ADAM was given authority (dominion) over the Creation (every living thing) -- Gen 1:28 -- and IN his sin, has all that was put under him, become subject to that error as well...

This is why all things must be subdued and PUT UNDER CHRIST, accordingly, ALL is found in subjection TO HIM... and the manifestation of RECONCILIATION, and the REVERSAL of what ADAM did, ...complete -- 1 Cor 15:28

There will be such a JOY to the deep details that men shall experience when all is said and done, to be beyond description!

I have told my wife, that this whole procedure of God is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger than we can possibly imagine...  Just as man has given an immeasureable picture of TORMENT from God... the OPPOSITE JOY for ALL shall be what actually occurs...

Even the ones who are presently WRONG about God and His plan, and have erroneously presented Him FALSELY before the World, within the grief of this revelation, shall they gain an equally unspeakable JOY within the recoiling from that error and grief... as the Father drys the TEARS from their eyes...  :bgdance:

Pain and suffering has a DIVINE MAJESTY attached to it... for it is said in Heb 2:10 that CHRIST was made COMPLETE (PERFECT) ...through SUFFERINGS...

Which means that SUFFERING is a "conduit" of sorts -- that leads to PERFECTION... Only the FATHER now holds understanding of this process and its necessity to include SUFFERING, but we shall ALL come to know it as HE knows it...

GOD Himself is "SUFFERING" with us -- Rom 9:22 -- and that "SUFFERING" is necessary to make ALL things COMPLETE, or it would not be done.

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[rosered]

  :HeartThrob:
  this is a great thread , and kudos to those who have shared in this disscussion
  I dont have much to say except .....  when speaking of not   killing  the ''bugs''    my hubby told me once '' Everything wants to LIVE ''..
and though there is suffering involved ''with living ''  that desire/will  still  proves true even in scriptures .. :bigGrin:

  I have  had times of ''giving up ''  this life and  yet the Lord returns in that peace to where I can still find  some joy in living
  makes me wonder what kind of ''spirit '' looms over  me at times  making  that  desire to die come over me ?
  sometimes I believe that  part of submission and being made humble  comes from the suffering we see in daily living /life 
and  the suffering  that we are experiencing as Willie put it '' with the Lord suffing  with us........   I know without ''His presence'' at times, I  just cannot go on  being in the world but not of it ..... :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

Yes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

Anti n, I hear ya. I am not complaining in the least about my or any sufferings as I believe for them to be in existence they must need to be. God would not allow anything to occur that is not good for us ultimately.

My only point is that God foreknew the results of His creating process and went ahead with it anyway. The results of His creating people would include torture, rape, incest, crucifixions, water boardings, and so on, and He went ahead anyway. This takes not only a tough being but, in my opinion, a perfectly harsh being also. These evils are harsh and they exist ultimately because of Gods design. To say God did not know such evils would result from His creating is just not right IMO.

God is putting Himself through this whole harsh process too which really makes me stand in awe of Him because I couldn't conceive of putting myself through such nastiness. His ways are truly beyond even what I can imagine.

cp

[Molly]

Yes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

But who takes the brunt of the harshness?  God himself.


53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,


And for what reason?  So we do not have to.



53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.


And to save many souls alive.


by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

[rosered]

 

good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge ''of good and evil ''
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge "of good and evil "
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

Hi rosered.  I think we would if we could figure out what the tree of life is.

For me, I think it's Christ...in us. :HeartThrob:

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

--Rev 22

[the]"leaves" [of the tree]

G5444
φύλλον
phullon
fool'-lon
From the same as G5443; a sprout, that is, leaf: - leaf.


G5443
φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.



1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.



--Isa 11

[rosered]

good points cp and Molly , makes me think again ,
  when do we STOP eating from the tree of knowldge "of good and evil "
and begin eating from the tree of life ? blessings rose  :HeartThrob:

Hi rosered.  I think we would if we could figure out what the tree of life is.

For me, I think it's Christ...in us. :HeartThrob:

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

--Rev 22

[the]"leaves" [of the tree]

G5444
φύλλον
phullon
fool'-lon
From the same as G5443; a sprout, that is, leaf: - leaf.


G5443
φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.



1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.



--Isa 11

I agree Molly , Jesus is that  Tree/Life  :thumbsup:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

 
Rev 2:7 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says  unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 

[claypot]

Yes Molly, it does tell us the plan and it is a very harsh one even though the outcome is great. The plan came out of a heart that is as deep in its harshness as it is infinite in its sensitivity and beauty.

But who takes the brunt of the harshness?  God himself.


53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,


And for what reason?  So we do not have to.



53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.


And to save many souls alive.


by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Molly, I totally agree God takes the harshness more than we do. We are but finite and understand and experience things in a finite or limited way. God, on the other hand, is eternal, infinite, so the harshness of His own actions are 'experienced' in like manner I would think.

But my point is, is not who takes the brunt of all the harshness but it is the fact that Gods plan and creation, which originates from His own 'heart and mind', are extremely harsh. God is a harsh God but perfect in all His ways to be sure.

Yes He bears this harshness (that He foreknew upon creating us) not, as you say, so we don't have to, but with us so we can and will endure and learn something.

And yes, this harshness, along with gentleness and wonder, will reap many souls alive.

Again, I am seeing God in a way I never saw Him before. His goodness/harshness is more terrible than any evil. I mean it. The greatest evil pales before Gods harsh and perfect ways.

And yet again, for God to create such a harsh world from which so much cruelty abounds takes a 'heart and mind' that is so complex and so strong and so mysterious and so harsh that it can never be fathomed.

If any person even comes close to hurting another by so arranging things and allowing them to occur as God does, we would hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Yet, of course for God to do so is fine for we know He loves us and His ways are perfect.

Hitler wanted to do evil to millions of Jews for what He thought was a greater good for the world. We call this insane. I agree. Some say God created a world, foreknowing the pain and misery and horror that would abound, for the same reason. We call this holy and perfect and right. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. I agree I think.

But my point is, this is a horribly harsh reality created by God Himself.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Claypot,
The reality of everything spiritual can be seen in the physical.
The Father is allowing His child growing pains.
Without this, we will not mature to His stature; share in His nature.
It takes an affliction to work a compassion.
Remember the Cross.

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcweVrHllP8

[claypot]

Claypot,
The reality of everything spiritual can be seen in the physical.
The Father is allowing His child growing pains.
Without this, we will not mature to His stature; share in His nature.
It takes an affliction to work a compassion.
Remember the Cross.

Man, I hear ya there for sure BServ.

Our Father is spiritual, Jesus said His words were spirit and truth. I see all as you describe it.

What I am seeing is that for God to allow His children 'growing pains' such as rape, torture, incest, crucifixions, mental cruelties and so on, takes a incredibly harsh and strong nature. This is not me letting my child get sick by smoking cigarettes so he can learn a lesson or even worse, letting my child get burned on a stove to learn a lesson. No this would be like me letting my daughter get raped right in front of me so she could learn a higher lesson about sin and her need for God.

Only God can allow and witness such atrocities because only God can bring the good out of it. But again, BServ, don't you see what kind of awesome strength and a harshness of 'character' it takes for even God to deal with such things? It must be the hardest thing our Father who is Love, has to experience........watching those He loves performing as He knew they would and knowing He must let them suffer so.

I honestly think I would have just wanted to learn what I could learn from God minus the evil He needed to have visited upon us but He wants me to learn and be so much more so I am not complaining, I am just making observations that I believe God is honoring.

I never forget the cross, my friend, never. Can you imagine doing what even Abraham almost did with his son, much less what God did with Jesus? Can you imagine taking your son (if you have one) and torture and kill him for any reason? You would need to be one harsh individual even if you also were the most loving guy around.

To even think up such sorrow and pain to usher in some form of higher goodness takes an imagination that is way beyond me.
cp

[claypot]

BServ,

Go Judy and go God!

Thanks for the youtube link. That song describes God at one His harshest moments in our history, but again He does what He must and, in the case of evil, no more and no less.

Oh, to let such evil even exist, much less continue takes a great God indeed. Tough love doesn't even begin to describe it.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Claypot,
It's hard to express without a parable.
What you are still seeing,
is the front, but from the other side.
On the Spirit side (even the other side)
things are the fruit of mans worship.
From torment and tears through the generations — Father produces Sons.

[reFORMer]

The rat struggles in the trap, however vainly, because she knows there is something better.  Hope masters the life.  What is not brings to naught what is.

I know the door into perfect everything has been opened by Jesus and no man can shut it.  It is with patience I wait the time appointed of the Father.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Php 3:10-11, AV)

The solitary He places into families, joined in clusters as it hath pleased Him.  "...the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." (Ja 5:7, AV)  "Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes." (SS 2:15, AV)  Kept to be trampled.  In darkness stored until the feast.  Healed to be offered up.  Sent to be lifted up in the death he should die to draw all unto Himself.  The price Christ paid must be spent to the last farthing.

"Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost." (Jn 6:12, AV)

[claypot]

Claypot,
It's hard to express without a parable.
What you are still seeing,
is the front, but from the other side.
On the Spirit side (even the other side)
things are the fruit of mans worship.
From torment and tears through the generations — Father produces Sons.

I hope I see something of the 'back' too BServ.

I do see the production of Sons. I see all this beauty and anguish as a mysterious and perfect mosaic.

All I am speaking of here in this thread is what is 'in' God that He could even think up creatures and a whole creation with such evil in it.

BServ, you do believe that it is our Father in Heaven who 'thought' up what we are experiencing now in the flesh, don't you?

God made man with the ability to sin in horrible ways and then allowed him to do it. Man is only doing what he is made able to do by his Creator, no more and no less. Whether God wanted man to sin or not is not at all my point here. My point is that God knew man would sin. God gave man the ability to exercise a carnal mind if so chosen. God knew man would so choose.

Where did it come from in God to 'think up' such a creature as man who could think up such atrocities as rape, torture, meanness and so on. If man can think it up and perform it then the ability and ideas came from somewhere first.

Again BServ, I am not arguing or saying God is at all wrong here. I am not saying I don't see the spiritual perfected side of all of Gods doings. All we are going through is needful for God to fulfill His desires and His desires for us and all creation is perfection.

What I am saying is God has got to have some very strong 'harshness' within His make-up for such grotesque evil to even rear its ugly head. This evil did not just pop into existence on its own apart from any foreknowledge of God.

IMO God thought His plan through, every detail, every possible scenario. God played these scenarios over and over in His very being before allowing any reality to take place. IMO He saw the rapes and murders and all the harsh reality and He decided to let it happen anyway!

What kind of God are dealing with here?

I'll tell you what I think. I think a perfect God who loves and loves and loves yet is very harsh in His strength and wisdom. We are dealing with no wimp here. We can only think up what is given to us in the first place and all comes from God ultimately.

cp

[Molly]

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

--Gen 3


The serpent, like all good liars, told some truth in his lie to Eve.

....ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

That's the truth.  Like gods, like God, we know good and evil.

No other sensient being on earth knows good and evil as man does.  My dog knows, 'good boy,'  but this is no sophisticated moral imperative.  He wants to please me, that's all.  He would bite the post man if I trained him to do so.

But, God's intent was to make man in his likeness and image, and Adam was the first god-Man, God's man on earth.

Like God, we can choose to do good or evil, because we know the difference.

The most evil men in history have been the greatest benefactors as well.  They feel that they must balance good and evil to satisfy their satanic belief systems.

But, there can be no balance of good and evil, only righteousness or death.



Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

[claypot]

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

--Gen 3


The serpent, like all good liars, told some truth in his lie to Eve.

....ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

That's the truth.  Like gods, like God, we know good and evil.

No other sensient being on earth knows good and evil as man does.  My dog knows, 'good boy,'  but this is no sophisticated moral imperative.  He wants to please me, that's all.  He would bite the post man if I trained him to do so.

But, God's intent was to make man in his likeness and image, and Adam was the first god-Man, God's man on earth.

Like God, we can choose to do good or evil, because we know the difference.

The most evil men in history have been the greatest benefactors as well.  They feel that they must balance good and evil to satisfy their satanic belief systems.

But, there can be no balance of good and evil, only righteousness or death.


Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Hey Molly, I'm not trackin ya. What does what you say have to do with my comments on this thread? I'm sure it's just me but I'm not sure how what you say fits.

Who 'thought up' man?

Who 'thought up' the serpent?

cp

[Molly]

Because I think you are looking at a little slice of creation, an unfinished business, and asking why is it like this?

How can we know good and evil if there is no good and evil and no choice?

How can we be what he is making us,  like gods, if we don't know good and evil?

God is making righteous men in what is, apparently, the only way to make righteous men.

So what looks harsh to us in the interim is a process leading to a better place.

God rested on the seventh day of creation.  It didn't say he stopped.



2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

[Beloved Servant]

Ya know Claypot,
I see it like this.
God thought of making His creature like Himself.
The creature, eating of the tree of choice now if capable of producing great horror and great beauty.
But it can not produce life.
It's all part of the creative process we are going through.

[Beloved Servant]

Hey Molly,
funny thing,
we were typing just about the same thing at the same time!

[Molly]

Hey Molly,
funny thing,
we were typing just about the same thing at the same time!

Two witnesses! :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

Because I think you are looking at a little slice of creation, an unfinished business, and asking why is it like this?

How can we know good and evil if there is no good and evil and no choice?

How can we be what he is making us,  like gods, if we don't know good and evil?

God is making righteous men in what is, apparently, the only way to make righteous men.

So what looks harsh to us in the interim is a process leading to a better place.

God rested on the seventh day of creation.  It didn't say he stopped.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am showing my ineptness again in trying to communicate something. Forgive me.

I am not asking at all why things are like they are. I am not looking a little slice of creation at all.

I am just commenting on the fact that God has to be awesomely harsh to create such harshness. I think He is perfect in His harshness but harsh none the less. Read my writings. I am not questioning God at all. I know we need the experience of good and evil or God would not have 'thought' it up and introduced us to it.

What looks to us as harsh is harsh isn't it? Isn't rape, murder, crucifixions and so on, harsh? Where did these possibilities come from? You might say the mind of man and you'd be right but where did the mind of man and its possibilities come from?

Man could not even come up with such thoughts if the brain were not made in such a way as to entertain them.

And the fact that God knew man would take on a carnal mindset and think perverse thoughts and act out these thoughts................and the fact that God not only knew man would do this but that God allowed this all to happen seems to say to me that within God harshness exists.

God resting on the seventh day and God ceasing from certain works is the same to me so I cannot agree that resting isn't implying that He did not stop. I think God will cease to allow sin and thoughts of sin to be intertwined with His creation at some point but until He stops 'thinking' about them man will not be able to stop thinking about them.

Molly, wouldn't you agree that the only way for evil to exist is by God allowing it and for Him to allow it must mean He has entertained the thought of it all along?

God's harshness may look like evil but it is only love in action! Gods 'love' is more harsh than any evil IMO. It is stronger than any evil and perfectly good and right. Rapes and murders and the like all must come from the mind of God ultimately and be useful for His ultimate purposes.

The mind of man thinks up evils and God made the mind of man in all its weaknesses and strengths.

cp

[claypot]

Ya know Claypot,
I see it like this.
God thought of making His creature like Himself.
The creature, eating of the tree of choice now if capable of producing great horror and great beauty.
But it can not produce life.
It's all part of the creative process we are going through.

Hey BServ,

You and Molly sure are good witnesses for our Lord. I am honored to know you both.

I like your words. You say God thought.....................

Isn't it amazing to even think that God thinks?

The creature ate of the tree of choice but the creature can only choose what is set before it, can't it? I mean the creature could have been only given a choice between something good and something good but it was given a choice of good or evil, obedience or disobedience right?

Who gave these choices to the creature? Where did the possibility of these choices originate from? Who thought up these choices for the creature to entertain?

I am suggesting the only answer can be, from the mind of God Himself.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Hi Claypot,
I understand you.
What seems and is harsh is the product of Good and Evil.
It is the evil side of the tree.
It's just part of the result.
Part of the plan.
Horrible to look at but a reality.
If the Lord laid this upon you heart, maybe He has the full answer you're looking for.
You may not find it here.
There are some mysteries in God that he reveals as present truth.