The Harshness of God

[claypot]

This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

[Molly]

I don't know what you mean by 'harshness of God,' cp.

Is that Biblical?  Or just a conclusion that you've drawn.

God is just. God is fair.  But, harsh?

I don't see that.

It's man who is harsh.  King David when given the choice of falling into the hands of man or of God, chose God.  God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.  It is evil man who is harsh, inventing torture for his fellow man, always thinking up new ways to kill, new ways to cunningly take advantage, new ways to destroy everything that is good and true.

Give me God any day of the week over man.

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

[claypot]

I don't know what you mean by 'harshness of God,' cp.

Is that Biblical?  Or just a conclusion that you've drawn.

God is just. God is fair.  But, harsh?

I don't see that.

It's man who is harsh.  King David when given the choice of falling into the hands of man or of God, chose God.  God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.  It is evil man who is harsh, inventing torture for his fellow man, always thinking up new ways to kill, new ways to cunningly take advantage, new ways to destroy everything that is good and true.

Give me God any day of the week over man.

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

I agree that man is harsh.

Biblical yes and a conclusion I have drawn from observation.

Molly, for an entity, any entity, to 'think' up such a creation, that entity is no wimp. Think about it, to make something so sensitive to pain and prone to misery and weakness and carelessness and so forth and then to let it subject itself to horrible torments..............this takes a strong Being.

Can you imagine what God goes through watching us and participating in this reality with us? Of course we can't but even to imagine a bit.......... Then to think He foreknew, He thought all this up, knowing how much we would suffer and then to 'decide' to do it.

Again, I realize this is the only way for God to get exactly what He wants or He wouldn't put Himself and us through it all but I'm just saying it is very harsh and it takes a very tough Being to pull it off.

God sure is loving and kind and gentle, but if that's the only side of Him you see then you are not heeding your Bible or the world around you and I know you better than that, Molly.

Again, man is very harsh and downright cruel, which God is not (cruel that is), but then again this is all God's ultimate doing and He knew the moment He thought up man, He knew exactly how harsh things would be.

My point is that it takes a very tough Being to allow such atrocities to occur while basically sitting back and watching and allowing it. Even though He has only our ultimate best in mind, it still takes a toughness and yes, a harshness that, of course, is beyond me.

cp

[claypot]

God knew the moment He made man exactly what atrocities man would commit and He knew that He would watch these horrible atrocities and allow them. He knew He would not interfere in many small ways but let the blood and evil flow until people put guns in their mouths to stop the agony or just went numb.

To even be able to think up such a creation takes a harshness of 'soul', don't you think? I mean to create something that can be so vile, that takes an awesome thinking process.

Even to have the best outcome I could imagine, and I can imagine a lot, I can't bring myself to think that I would have the guts and strength to create something that would suffer so much. This, to me, takes a harshness and a toughness that is way beyond me.

God is love so to create something that is allowed to get so infected with evil must torture the heck out of Him and all I'm saying is that to endure that kind of torture God has got to be very tough. And to even think up creatures that can perform such hideous acts tells me there must be some harshness within this Love.

cp

[Molly]

Yes, I agree he has to be very tough.  So do we.

It hurts to the bone to see it go on day and night.

2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

[claypot]

Yes, I agree he has to be very tough.  So do we.

It hurts to the bone to see it go on day and night.

2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

I battle with the word 'harsh' too. Tough is a given. Tougher than nails, He has to be.

The only reason I use the description of 'harshness' is because I wonder what is within God Himself that would cause even Him to entertain such 'thoughts'? I don't say it's a sinful or evil harshness, just a harshness that could and would even think up these things to begin with.

If it hurts us to the bone can you imagine what it is like for God and again, to think He can think up such a plan that causes such hurt to all including Himself.............................What an awesome God we serve and His ways certainly are past finding out, but one can think!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

cp

[Molly]

What thoughts are you talking about?  Man's thoughts are not God's thoughts.  Man has a certain amount of (since I'm not allowed to say 'free will') autonomy.



This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar.



30 "The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but provoke me with what their hands have made, declares the LORD. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters  to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

--Jer 32

[Paul Hazelwood]

though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

[willieH]

though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

...willieH  :happy3:

[Paul Hazelwood]

though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

...willieH  :happy3:

The conclusion is based upon the verse I responded to.   It is sometimes said that God ordained that a child will be raped.   Yet the verse I responded to shows the difficulty in rendering such an absolute conclusion.   Perhaps it is not possible to know all the "doings" of God, but if God ordained that someone does such a detestable thing, why do we have the Lord saying that "it did not enter his mind that they should do such a detestable thing"?

It does not say that God did not know, only that he did NOT command it nor did it enter his mind that they "should" do it.   

But did God prepare the way despite that?   Yes.   In proverbs 5:21 the words translated to "ponders"  can mean  "To prepare the way"

So if God declares that he did not command something and it did not enter his mind that they should.   How can you conclude that he indeed did command it and that it did enter his mind that they should?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

What thoughts are you talking about?  Man's thoughts are not God's thoughts.  Man has a certain amount of (since I'm not allowed to say 'free will') autonomy. [willieH:  but your "saying" it anyway -- eh?  :laughing7:]

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar.

30 "The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but provoke me with what their hands have made, declares the LORD. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters  to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

--Jer 32

The words before what you underlined explain what is actually happening...  This verse is of the ..."GOD REPENTING"...  variety which many try to use to show GOD as UNCERTAIN or a "changeable or adapting" entity... reacting TO MEN, instead of the way it really is, ...MEN react TO GOD...

Because this thread and the points already made are definitely PRECURSORS to a "free-will" versus "sovereignty" arguement (as Molly suggests by USING the ever-so-slightly "shaded" word -- "autonomy" -- above  :laughhand:)... I will try to make the point which opposes the inference already made quickly, ...in hopes to avoid such an arguement... yet presenting the opposing point.

(1) GOD never "REPENTS" (as does man), REGRETTING the things HE has chosen to DO, as is assumed by some in Scripture...

His "repentence" is a condescension He makes, as He looks upon the  plight of man within its "PATHWAY" of suffering, ...within a SUFFERING He is enduring as well -- Rom 9:22

(2) The verse above is NOT suggesting that the "DOING of JUDAH" in ANY WAY, took Him by surprise (or "off guard") as if He had not "thought" of this... that IN ITSELF is PERFECTLY preposterous.  :laughing7:

It is stating that the DOING of JUDAH was not COMMANDED by Him... even though it was ORDAINED to happen according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of it... (See Rom 9:11 for an example of this process)

Just as EVE within ADAM, was NOT COMMANDED to eat of the tree, ...she in fact, was COMMANDED otherwise... however,

It is WRITTEN that she ATE of the tree... in the ETERNAL WORD, and that WORD which so states that she "ate", never CHANGES... nor did it require EVE to eat, ("do" so) before the WORD which notes SHE ATE, could be WRITTEN...

Furthermore, ...GOD was not "taken by surprise" or "off guard" by her indescretion... rather, He KNEW before He COMMANDED, that she would eat...  Just as He also KNEW the answer to His questions of them before they answered...  For before the World even was CREATED, ...CHRIST was slain and IN PLACE... for this primary and pivotal indescretion which HAD YET to TAKE PLACE in TIME...  Not as a "reaction", rather as part of PROCESS of PERFECTION = Heb 2:10

This same thing applies to the above verse... GOD did NOT COMMAND that Judah Sin, but He did ORDAIN via His PERFECT Foreknowledge, that Judah SIN... For it is WRITTEN in the WORD (which is ETERNAL --without beginning or end, and without necessity of TIME manifestations -- i.e. CHRIST slain FROM the foundation of the world - Rev 13:8)... that Judah sinned.

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

The debate over free will or sovereignty is not necessary here.

It simply is seeing that there appears to be a contradiction to say God ordained something that He then declares that he did not ordain.

So it is not "believing as we will" it is simply a matter of reading a scripture that presents a problem to a mans point of view.

[claypot]

Hey Gang, I was just looking for some responses about the harshness of God. I am not at all looking for words on anything else. You all are great.

Molly I don't understand your question about thoughts. I don't know if I would say God 'thinks' so I put the word 'thought' in semi colens.

cp

[claypot]

This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

This is what I would like to discuss if we can.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

This train of thought I started on another thread but it has been opening doors for me into the 'heart' of God so I wanted to see what some others thought.

I think the key obstacle that people have in trying to understand God, especially when it comes to eternal torment or not, is the harshness of God. It cannot be denied. God's plan with people is very harsh. The cruelty, the mental and physical torments that abound in a creation like ours is off the charts yet this is what God created, foreknew and allows. I say He has to be very tough to watch what He must watch...... very very tough.

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

IMO He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. 

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations.

cp

This is what I would like to discuss if we can.

cp

Hi CP,

Appreciate your desire to know more and I hope that from day to day I do not get too comfortable with what I believe so as to not learn.

Indeed, I have allowed my kids to fail in some ways when I was sure it would demonstrate to them a reality of life, but along with that allowance within my own realm of interacting with my children I would help them understand that failure is not futility and that  we must work hard to be able to accept failure and either try again or come to a reasonable conclusion to move on.

One of the difficulties is working through the WHY's and perhaps many why questions we will not know the answer to in this lifetime.   I still think one of the keys to my own spiritual freedom was understanding that even though the prevalent "thought" concerning a God that is worth devoting time to is that there is no limits, nothing impossible, that those are emotional terms and not factual terms.

It does not bother me that I personally have concluded that God cannot do absolutely anything because the character of the God I know may have an outlook such as you do.   

"I would not"   I understand that thought since we do not know the end result, it is faith and hope for what we cannot see, feel, or touch.   

Given the scriptures that indicate that God does indeed suffer "with" us to a certain extent shows that this God even having certain limits concerning what "MUST" happen to perfect us  chose to grieve for a time understanding that when we are perfected we will have no choice but to say it was worth every stripe and bruise.

It is that I hope for and it is that I will live out the rest of my life believing simply because it offers life to others and if I die and find out I was wrong I will not have wasted my life sharing such things with the living. 

:icon_flower:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Yes , Gods forknowledge is apart from what he will DO.  PRV 5:21

Pro 5:21 -- For the ways of man are before the eyes of YHVH, and HE [YHVH] pondereth all his [man's] goings...

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, ...but I don't get this conclusion --from this verse Paul...  :Chinscratch:

That His FOREKNOWLEDGE is "apart" from His "doings"?  :mshock:

How do you gain this conclusion from this verse?

That He FORESEES (foreknows) all man's goings does not have anything to do with HIS DOINGS changing or being separate... or suggests any "change" in plans...  :dontknow:

On the contrary, it is evident by many Scriptural notations that what GOD FORESEES (foreknows) is that which shall OCCUR... This is why and how PROPHECY works PERFECTLY...

Manifesting EXACTLY as FORETOLD...

All I see from this verse is that ALL that "man DOES" is before the eyes of YHVH... before, during and after... man "does" what he "does"...  :dontknow:

The word translated "pondereth" [#H6424 - PALAC] means -- [i.e.] ...to prepare a road...

(IMO) It infers that The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is setting a plan IN PLACE... not that He is thinking over alternative possible routes for man to walk...

...willieH  :happy3:

The conclusion is based upon the verse I responded to.   It is sometimes said that God ordained that a child will be raped.   Yet the verse I responded to shows the difficulty in rendering such an absolute conclusion.   Perhaps it is not possible to know all the "doings" of God, but if God ordained that someone does such a detestable thing, why do we have the Lord saying that "it did not enter his mind that they should do such a detestable thing"?

I must agree that it is NOT POSSIBLE to know ALL the "doings" of GOD... for Heavens sake, how can FINITES even propose such a thought?  To have the capacity to behold the INFINITE?  :mshock:

It does not say that God did not know, only that he did NOT command it nor did it enter his mind that they "should" do it.   

But did God prepare the way despite that?   Yes.   In proverbs 5:21 the words translated to "ponders"  can mean  "To prepare the way"

So if God declares that he did not command something and it did not enter his mind that they should.   How can you conclude that he indeed did command it and that it did enter his mind that they should?

You are missing the point brother P...

I did NOT say that GOD "COMMANDED" this... I said He ORDAINED it according to HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE...  He COMMANDS Righteousness... for Righteousness it the result of the process of fulfilling His COMMAND...

HIS COMMANDS are RIGHTEOUSNESS and GOOD... However,

Where this FORK in the road lies, is that He also created EVIL... In which HIS COMMANDS are seen VIOLATED and TRANSGRESSED... and HE also put these IN PLACE, or they would not ...BE... For He created ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS that exist, are according to HIS WILL -- but not ALL THINGS that HE CREATES or "ORDAINS", are specifically "COMMANDS" Eph 1:11 -- Rom 9:18-19

Scripture points out that ALL POWER is of GOD -- Rom 13:1 -- and that any resistance to POWERS which are ORDAINED by GOD, ...is resistance to the ORDINANCE of GOD...

That indulging in EVIL is (conscious or unconscious) transgression of COMMANDS of GOD...  is STILL "power" being exercised... 

Is not "choosing" a "power"?  It takes POWER to "choose" does it not?  And if so, then choice is seen at times to result in GOOD and at others results in EVIL, but irregardless of the classification of the result, it is STILL a "power" being EXERCISED...  :dontknow:

God INTENDS these EVIL MANIFESTATIONS to occur... this is plainly indicated by CHRIST and His ORDAINED mission ...already in place... before the first MAN even appears. 

This was not a REACTIVE measure, it was INTENDED... otherwise, MAN is seen dictating to GOD via his WILL as opposed to YHVH as the Scripturally noted, ...being the CONTROLLING entity... Eph 1:11

This ORDAINED "DEATH" mission which (later in TIME) manifests the DEATH of JESUS, is found in the PERFECT atmosphere... before ANYTHING which causes DEATH (evil + sin) was brought forth!  :dontknow:  And is NOT decided by the "doings" of MEN, rather was decided BEFORE there WERE men to "do --> doings"...  :laughing7:

EVIL (as CREATED by GOD) within His PURPOSE, demands DEATH by its practice, according to that PERFECT and Eternal FOREKNOWLEDGE and PLAN...  which PRECEEDED man... AND, ...death.

And was so DECREED by that PERFECT ETERNAL FOREKNOWLEDGE -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Isaiah 48:3

NOT by the eventual Finite, and EVIL manifestations of MAN, in TIME...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :happygrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Willie,


If you are saying that despite knowing what we would choose to do he created us anyway, then we are in agreement on that specifically.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

The debate over free will or sovereignty is not necessary here.

It simply is seeing that there appears to be a contradiction to say God ordained something that He then declares that he did not ordain.

There is no contradiction... it is all in how each of us are observing the terms, "ORDINANCE" and "COMMAND"...

LIFE occurs in an ORDAINED setting which does not always involve "COMMAND"...

GOD via His Creating method has "ORDAINED" breath necessary for living entities (in TIME) to continue LIVING...

I breathe IN and OUT... even though, it is not "COMMANDED" that I do so... however, if I do NOT continue to BREATHE... then even though I have NOT transgressed a "COMMAND", I will DIE, because of that cessation...

That which GOD "ordains" is NOT always HIS "COMMAND"... ALL things are created, and worked BY HIM, according to HIS WILL... not ALL THINGS are "COMMANDED"...

So it is not "believing as we will" it is simply a matter of reading a scripture that presents a problem to a mans point of view.

That "man" is you brother Paul... It poses a problem to you, not to me...  :dontknow:

And regardless... you DO believe as you "will"... as do I...  :yes:

It does not matter what is said to the other, by either of us... it matters what is said to us by GOD...

"Either" of us can either "SEE the contradiction" or not... and it is within HIS will that we either SEE or do not... (See "blindness in part is HAPPENED in Israel" -- Rom 11:25 -- NOT of their "WILL" to be BLIND, or because of "COMMAND", ...but of because of HIS "ordination" they be BLIND!)

It is not a matter of our will (free or otherwise)... it is a matter of HIS... however... we still either believe or not, as we "will"...

That said, ...only one of us is aware that it is according to HIS DECREE (ordination)... of that "will" that we "believe" as we DO...  :thinking:  (Again See Rom 11:25)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see where you are coming from concerning the terms Commanded and Ordained.

God ordained that we would be created knowing the choices we would make.  He planned for those choices so that it would be impossible to ever be lost forever.
His plan commands us to righteousness despite the choices we make.

[Molly]

If it hurts us to the bone can you imagine what it is like for God and again, to think He can think up such a plan that causes such hurt to all including Himself.............................What an awesome God we serve and His ways certainly are past finding out, but one can think!

Maybe because the plan is unknown to us, it looks harsh?

What is the plan?


20 For the creation was subjected  to futility  —not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it  —in the hope 21 that the creation itself  will also be set free from the bondage of corruption into the glorious freedom of God's children. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together with labor pains  until now.

--Romans 8


He wants me to do what?  Who does he think I am? :mshock:


4 How long will the land mourn
    and the grass of every field wither?
    Because of the evil of its residents,
    animals and birds have been swept away,
    for [the people] have said,
    "He cannot see what our end will be."

--Jer 12


Maybe we've forgotten what it was like before Adam?


2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

--Gen 1

[reFORMer]

Consider all the insects.  It has been estimated there are over 100,000 stars visible in the sky on a very clear night.  It is also thought that there are over 100,000 species of insects for every one of those stars and there are innumerable members to each species. Mostly these insects have short lives.  They have eyes that see, they taste and have little minds that remember, hands and antenna that feel, and hearts that feel desire for their mates. They are eaten alive by other creeping things.  They lose limbs, pieces are bit out of them, they suffer illnesses, fall subject to old age and die.  Theirs is a suffering way.  I don't understand why God likes so many insects or why He has them sufferring.  What does the manifestation of the sons (legal heirs) of God have to do with it?  Will they somehow at least improve the situation?  Maybe they have another nature appearing in the resurrection but for now God made them to suffer.  He sees through all of their eyes, He knows what they think and feel altogether. As He gives them existence, He is experiencing everything of their lives.  Why their pain?

[Molly]

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53

52:13 Behold, my servant shall prosper,
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
52:14 As many were astonished at him ­­
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the sons of men ­­
52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they shall see,
and that which they have not heard they shall understand.

53:1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

[claypot]

Hey Molly, the full plan is unknown to us but the pain and misery is most assuredly known as God foresaw. As the Psalm you quoted says, it was the will of God to bruise him and to put him to grief.

This is so deep to me. That God has the ability to willingly cause severe pain and misery and that He does it.

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;

Oh, as much as I know God, I know He has His reasons and they are perfect but to create and do such harsh and horrible things has got to take a strength of character and even a 'hardness' that even a 'Hitler' does not possess.

All to teach us something? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Reform, very interesting observations. Talk about tough love!

cp

[Molly]

But, cp, doesn't the passage also tell us the plan?

he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

--Isa 53

[Molly]

53:1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

--Isa 53


"the arm" [of the LORD]
H2220
זרעה    זרועה    זרע    זרוע
zerôa‛  zerôa‛  zerô‛âh zerô‛âh
zer-o'-ah (1,2), zer-o-aw' (3,4)
From H2232; the arm (as stretched out), or (of animals) the foreleg; figuratively force: - arm, + help, mighty, power, shoulder, strength.



The word for arm is the same word used  for the shank of the Passover lamb.  Let's look at its root.




H2232
זרע
zâra‛
zaw-rah'
A primitive root; to sow; figuratively to disseminate, plant, fructify: - bear, conceive seed, set with, sow (-er), yield.




53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;