Jewish concepts... what the hell???!

[MacPherson]

Whenever I hear about the concept of purgatory, it's always supposed to be something invented by Catholics. But read what a Rabbi has to say about it: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell..htm

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

[trettep]

Very interesting, thanks for the post.

Paul

[Livelystone]

There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life.  :thumbsup:

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Hi Brian,

What's new?  :laughing7:
God describes Himself as refiners fire. Fullars soap. Even the word torment is in agreement with what the rabbi wrote.
If there is nor fire-torture in OT then it isn't in the NT either. I'm a Bible noob but the stuff I (think) I know clearly is in line with what the rabbi wrote. I've yet to find and English article by a rabbi that sees hell the Catholic way.
BTW I think the Catholic church had good reasons to teach purgatory. But it backfired in a big way.

A (slightly) hidden gem:

You write that you are a "secular Jew." I don't believe there is such a thing. You see, the word secular means mundane or un-sacred. A Jew, by definition, is holy. And you are as just as Jewish as me, your great-grandfather, and Moses. Perhaps not as observant -- but just as Jewish. I truly mean that...

Romans 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:

[MacPherson]

There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life.  :thumbsup:

Doug

Yes, but if this is a pre Christ, pre Talmud concept, then it would be an Old Testament concept. It would be a concept that Jesus himself, being a Jew, was raised with. Where is hell in the Old Testament? What did God say to Moses about it?

[MacPherson]

Hi Brian,

What's new?  :laughing7:

Seems to be new to anyone outside of TM (who's not Jewish).

[jabcat]

I was looking to see just what God did tell Moses about "hell", and ran across an apochryphal book called the Revelation of Moses...it has some pretty wild descriptions of "eternal torment" and people being punished. 

WARNING!   Unless your faith is strong, you may not want to look at this;  IMO, except for the authentic scripture mixed in, it's probably pretty much baloney.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1893-15.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi James,

Skimmed over that link and not doubting the depictions of torment.  I did some word searches for the page but am not seeing where it says they are eternal in nature.

Am I missing that?

[jabcat]

Hi Paul...here, where it SEEMS to say part of this piece is actually from Isaiah...which if so, just brings us back to the "for ever and ever" deal...probably aions, aionios, ages of ages, etc. (?)

"[Our sages tell[2] that at the time when Nebuchadnezzar the impious said: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah xv. 14 {sic. Isaiah xiv. 14}), the Holy Spirit came forth and said: "O impious man! How many are the days of the years of thy life?  And there sits the King of Kings, the Holy, blessed be He exalted and high, and thou sayest: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High! Woe unto thee, O impious man and woe unto thy soul, for thou shalt be brought down to the uttermost parts of the pit (cf. Isaiah xiv. 15) to the seven regions of hell to be punished for ever and ever."]

[jabcat]

As far as not doubting the depictions of torment, what do you think about the various body parts from which people are supposedly hanging, etc.?  Also, I've read over and over in UR that there's not any "hell" depicted in the OT, other than the grave... :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

As far as not doubing the depictions of torment, what do you think about the various body parts from which people are supposedly hanging, etc.?  Also, I've read over and over in UR that there's not any "hell" depicted in the OT, other than the grave... :dontknow:

Seems like a classic ET NDE. Like that of "The 7 youth"

I need a little help on the verse below. Is it purely from the 'Revelation of Moses"? Or is the Isaiah verse added as reference?
If Moses lived before Isaiah how can he quote that verse?
The text is altered for sure because the verse numbering is a western thing only a few centuries old.

48. Moses went and saw how the wicked were punished by fire, being half in fire and half in snow, with worms crawling up and down their bodies and a fiery collar round their necks, and having no rest,[1] except on Sabbath days and Festival days.[2] All (the other) days they are tortured in Hell. Of these speaks the verse: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah cxvi. 28 {sic lxvi. 24}).

[jabcat]

Good questions, WW, and probably above my head without researching it.  I did find that, interestingly, the Young's Literal reads very differently than whatever translation is quoted in the "for ever and ever" Isaiah passage I quoted earlier;  Young's says  "Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit."  Isaiah 14:15.  Nothing there even about "for ever and ever".    I'll check the verse you quoted in the Young's as well...I don't know what translation they are using.

[WhiteWings]

WARNING!   Unless your faith is strong,

For me it just strengthens 'faith'. When trying to debunk I usally learn a lot (from my own false assumptions).

[jabcat]

WARNING!   Unless your faith is strong,

For me it just strengthens 'faith'. When trying to debunk I usally learn a lot (from my own false assumptions).

Good.  Just don't want to harm any "little ones", weak in the faith.  Sort of like I wouldn't have wanted my children to directly observe a gruesome murder.   :mshock:

[jabcat]

Isaiah 66:24  KJV  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. 

Young's 24And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh! 

I'm going to need to study this more, in a larger context, because honestly right now it sounds different to me than "there is no hell in the OT other than the grave"  :dontknow:   Explanations anyone?  Is this talking about Gehenna, for instance?

[Doc]

There has been a lot added to scripture in most translations that wasn't present originally, and which can often change the entire meaning of some passages. I would double check any such passage against a literal translation like Young's or CLV. I mean, we all know how much damage was done by the mistranslation of just single words like aion...

As an example, consider Romans 6:23, which in most translations is: "the wages of sin is death...". The concordant literal has, "the ration of sin is death.. " which is a fine but important distinction. Wages is something you get at the end of the day, but a ration is something that one continually gets to keep one going. Paul is not trying to tell us the end result of what folks will get who do not know Christ, but the quality of their lives depending on who their "master" is. If one is mired in sin and does not or cannot seek Christ, then death is hanging over them, and the specter of death feeds them. The point there is: What do we have to look forward to, while we are living?

Even such a slight difference as this can make a huge difference in understanding, as we can see.

[WhiteWings]

Companion/Bullinger Bible:

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to the grave, to the recesses of the
pit.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that
have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall
their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all man kind.

24 men. Heb. pl. of 'Enosh. Ap. 14. III. transgressed. Heb.
pasha'. Ap. 44. ix. their worm. Quoted in Mark 9:44. Referred by our Lord to Gehenna, of which the fires in the valley of Hinnom were an illustration. Heb. tola', the maggot bred from putrid substances. See Ex. 16:20. Deut. 28:39. Job 25:6 (second word). Ps. 22:6. Isa. 14:11 (second
word); 41:14; 66:24 ; and Jonah 4:7, which are all the occurrences of tola' in O.T.
In the synagogue use, v. 23 is repeated after v. 24, so that the book may end with comfort. Cp, end of Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Malachi. an abhorring. The Heb. occurs only here.

[Livelystone]

There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life.  :thumbsup:

Doug

Yes, but if this is a pre Christ, pre Talmud concept, then it would be an Old Testament concept. It would be a concept that Jesus himself, being a Jew, was raised with. Where is hell in the Old Testament? What did God say to Moses about it?

I agree........

Christ is the fulfillment of the law that is the fire......... If Christians ever expect to have the laws of God written on their hearts just as God said so in the OT then they will have to do exactly what Moses did when he got the law and walk into the fire to get it.

Blessings

Doug

[WhiteWings]

CLV Isa 66:24 And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

Hell is when others are in heaven. Are those in heaven still flesh?

[Paul Hazelwood]

James,  thanks,

I guess I overlook the literal word forever and ever any more as I simply don't automatically assume that something translated from ancient text must mean that in a literal sense.


We can find horror in the verses that are in the bible now if we are taught to see them literally that way.

A whole world being drowned alive is but one.   I guess I do not have that template within my thinking any more and I thank God for that.


Plucking out ones own eye sounds like a very horrible thing a God would expect from his obedient sheep, so I guess what I read in that link is no different where text only is concerned.   ;)

[Tim B]

Hi Paul...here, where it SEEMS to say part of this piece is actually from Isaiah...which if so, just brings us back to the "for ever and ever" deal...probably aions, aionios, ages of ages, etc. (?)

"[Our sages tell[2] that at the time when Nebuchadnezzar the impious said: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah xv. 14 {sic. Isaiah xiv. 14}), the Holy Spirit came forth and said: "O impious man! How many are the days of the years of thy life?  And there sits the King of Kings, the Holy, blessed be He exalted and high, and thou sayest: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High! Woe unto thee, O impious man and woe unto thy soul, for thou shalt be brought down to the uttermost parts of the pit (cf. Isaiah xiv. 15) to the seven regions of hell to be punished for ever and ever."]

In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD

[WhiteWings]

It is not here the place to enter into a more minute disquisition of the history of these visions. We find parallels in the old Ægyptian literature, in the Assyrian we have the well-known "Descensus ad inferos" of Izdubar (Nimrud). The Buddhist literature knows the Suh.rllekha, the letter of Nâgârjuna to King Udayana. In the Avesta literature we have the Nameh of Arda-viraf; in the Mahommedan we have the vision of Mahommed. All these Christian Revelations and of the others, at any rate the last two, are based directly upon those Hebrew visions, a fact which has hitherto not been noticed.

The question is if the Hebrew really was the origin.
I've read an article about the start of the church. That is what we now know as the Catholic church.
Their goal was to convert as many as fast as they could. To reach that goal they did bend the true Word a little to make it sound like pagan stuff. The Christian version speaks about fire and pit/grave. Same for the pagan religions.
To make the pagans feel at home it wasn't told the fire is spiritual. That's how literal fire crepts in. This just one example

I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell

I asked this several times but never got an answer "In Dutch we got a saying: Being in the 7th heaven."
Sounds like that comes from the same source as 7 parts of hell.
The writer of the original book is Duth too.

[Paul Hazelwood]

In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD

It's hard to make a comparison without the hebrew text to study with, but in the OT of the bible you do have a distant comparison. 

Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

[WhiteWings]

CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.

Sound very different.

Plus he was rescued from the hell that nobody is supposed to leave. Ever.

Companion/Bullinger Bible

For great is Thy grace toward me: And Thou hast delivered my soul from Sheol beneath.

the lowest hell = Sheol beneath. hell. Heb. Sheol. Ap. 35. Not the language of "Semitic heathenism", but the inspired revelation of Divine eschatology.

[willieH]

willieH: Hey brother D! And brother B! :hithere:

BRIAN:

Hey -- in answer to you, brother Brian... it is always interesting to find out what the Jews "think" about such a subject, but that Scripture notes them as BLIND for the most part, is a good reason to take their "thoughts" on a given subject, ESPECIALLY one such as "hell", with a HUGE grain or 2 (or 1000) of salt!  And NOT, ...conclude that "thought" as true, by taking their "hand" and following them BLINDLY into their ditch!  :laughing7:

DOUG:

There are quite a few things that the jews do not believe in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life.  :thumbsup:

Doug

Amen Doug... the BEST point that could've been made! :happyclap:

Judaism is a RELIGION... and was and IS,  ...AS easily infiltrated by the NEARBY resident proximities of PAGANISM (root of "hell" as believed and proposed by Christianity) to it... as CHRISTIANITY has!

ALL religion is subject to FALSE contentions, as our brother Doug has importantly pointed out above... bringing its own defiled "brand or version", of the "philosphies of God" to the world around them...

RELIGIOUS JEWS still, in futility, pursue the keeping of the Law, which serves as an evidence that their RELIGION has progressed little in SPIRITUAL areas...

Though I know very little of their Relgion (and btw, dont care to know), ...That they don't believe in JESUS, and DO uphold that the LAW yet remains, ...I ask, ...where is sacrifice for SIN found in this void version of RELIGION?

They ceased killing and offering animals and such, and from presenting them before GOD in the stead of SIN... Why?  Where is the current "mediating substance" in their philosphy?  And in what SPIRITUAL writing do they use to note that were they informed to STOP this sacrificing of animals?  How is the LAW satisfied?

In that alone, do their philosphies of God, show errosion... They him&haw, but in the end, the LAW as WRITTEN, requires sacrifice and they fail to fulfill its requirements... therefore their "religion" is found vain, and they, in their preaching of it, meet NOT the standards within it...  Failing it, and yet teach it to others as "valid", and support themselves as "valid" practitioners of it... :rolleye:

Therefore, ...for what reason, should we all of a sudden get all up in a wrinkle about what some "RABBI" says about "hell"?  :laughing7:

Yes, ...GOD shall one day lead them ALL into the LIGHT as the CROWNING portion of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- Rom 11:26 -- for the FIRST (Jews) to have FAITH and believe in YHVH, shall be the LAST to be introduced to its SAVING KING -- JESUS CHRIST... to the GLORY of the FATHER, who shall "Ice" the "Cake of Salvation" with His own BELOVED and CHOSEN people...  :bgdance:

But in the meantime, such GAPING holes in their "understandings", are reason enough to CONCLUSIVELY ignore them and their less than accurate thinking, in areas such as what ..."hell"... might or might NOT, be...

peace...

...willieH  :thumbsup: