Whenever I hear about the concept of purgatory, it's always supposed to be something invented by Catholics. But read what a Rabbi has to say about it: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell..htm
Hell is temporary -- not permanent.
Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.
Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.
Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.
Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.
Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar
Very interesting, thanks for the post.
Paul
There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life. :thumbsup:
Doug
Hi Brian,
What's new? :laughing7:
God describes Himself as refiners fire. Fullars soap. Even the word torment is in agreement with what the rabbi wrote.
If there is nor fire-torture in OT then it isn't in the NT either. I'm a Bible noob but the stuff I (think) I know clearly is in line with what the rabbi wrote. I've yet to find and English article by a rabbi that sees hell the Catholic way.
BTW I think the Catholic church had good reasons to teach purgatory. But it backfired in a big way.
A (slightly) hidden gem:
QuoteYou write that you are a "secular Jew." I don't believe there is such a thing. You see, the word secular means mundane or un-sacred. A Jew, by definition, is holy. And you are as just as Jewish as me, your great-grandfather, and Moses. Perhaps not as observant -- but just as Jewish. I truly mean that...
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
Quote from: Livelystone on June 08, 2009, 07:33:10 PM
There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life. :thumbsup:
Doug
Yes, but if this is a pre Christ, pre Talmud concept, then it would be an Old Testament concept. It would be a concept that Jesus himself, being a Jew, was raised with. Where
is hell in the Old Testament? What did God say to Moses about it?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 07:36:23 PM
Hi Brian,
What's new? :laughing7:
Seems to be new to anyone outside of TM (who's not Jewish).
I was looking to see just what God did tell Moses about "hell", and ran across an apochryphal book called the Revelation of Moses...it has some pretty wild descriptions of "eternal torment" and people being punished.
WARNING! Unless your faith is strong, you may not want to look at this; IMO, except for the authentic scripture mixed in, it's probably pretty much baloney.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1893-15.htm
Hi James,
Skimmed over that link and not doubting the depictions of torment. I did some word searches for the page but am not seeing where it says they are eternal in nature.
Am I missing that?
Hi Paul...here, where it SEEMS to say part of this piece is actually from Isaiah...which if so, just brings us back to the "for ever and ever" deal...probably aions, aionios, ages of ages, etc. (?)
"[Our sages tell[2] that at the time when Nebuchadnezzar the impious said: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah xv. 14 {sic. Isaiah xiv. 14}), the Holy Spirit came forth and said: "O impious man! How many are the days of the years of thy life? And there sits the King of Kings, the Holy, blessed be He exalted and high, and thou sayest: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High! Woe unto thee, O impious man and woe unto thy soul, for thou shalt be brought down to the uttermost parts of the pit (cf. Isaiah xiv. 15) to the seven regions of hell to be punished for ever and ever."]
As far as not doubting the depictions of torment, what do you think about the various body parts from which people are supposedly hanging, etc.? Also, I've read over and over in UR that there's not any "hell" depicted in the OT, other than the grave... :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:37:27 PM
As far as not doubing the depictions of torment, what do you think about the various body parts from which people are supposedly hanging, etc.? Also, I've read over and over in UR that there's not any "hell" depicted in the OT, other than the grave... :dontknow:
Seems like a classic ET NDE. Like that of "The 7 youth"
I need a little help on the verse below. Is it purely from the 'Revelation of Moses"? Or is the Isaiah verse added as reference?
If Moses lived before Isaiah how can he quote that verse?
The text is altered for sure because the verse numbering is a western thing only a few centuries old.
Quote48. Moses went and saw how the wicked were punished by fire, being half in fire and half in snow, with worms crawling up and down their bodies and a fiery collar round their necks, and having no rest,[1] except on Sabbath days and Festival days.[2] All (the other) days they are tortured in Hell. Of these speaks the verse: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah cxvi. 28 {sic lxvi. 24}).
Good questions, WW, and probably above my head without researching it. I did find that, interestingly, the Young's Literal reads very differently than whatever translation is quoted in the "for ever and ever" Isaiah passage I quoted earlier; Young's says "Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit." Isaiah 14:15. Nothing there even about "for ever and ever". I'll check the verse you quoted in the Young's as well...I don't know what translation they are using.
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
WARNING! Unless your faith is strong,
For me it just strengthens 'faith'. When trying to debunk I usally learn a lot (from my own false assumptions).
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 08:53:44 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
WARNING! Unless your faith is strong,
For me it just strengthens 'faith'. When trying to debunk I usally learn a lot (from my own false assumptions).
Good. Just don't want to harm any "little ones", weak in the faith. Sort of like I wouldn't have wanted my children to directly observe a gruesome murder. :mshock:
Isaiah 66:24 KJV And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Young's 24And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!
I'm going to need to study this more, in a larger context, because honestly right now it sounds different to me than "there is no hell in the OT other than the grave" :dontknow: Explanations anyone? Is this talking about Gehenna, for instance?
There has been a lot added to scripture in most translations that wasn't present originally, and which can often change the entire meaning of some passages. I would double check any such passage against a literal translation like Young's or CLV. I mean, we all know how much damage was done by the mistranslation of just single words like aion...
As an example, consider Romans 6:23, which in most translations is: "the wages of sin is death...". The concordant literal has, "the ration of sin is death.. " which is a fine but important distinction. Wages is something you get at the end of the day, but a ration is something that one continually gets to keep one going. Paul is not trying to tell us the end result of what folks will get who do not know Christ, but the quality of their lives depending on who their "master" is. If one is mired in sin and does not or cannot seek Christ, then death is hanging over them, and the specter of death feeds them. The point there is: What do we have to look forward to, while we are living?
Even such a slight difference as this can make a huge difference in understanding, as we can see.
Companion/Bullinger Bible:
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to the grave, to the recesses of the
pit.
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that
have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall
their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all man kind.
24 men. Heb. pl. of 'Enosh. Ap. 14. III. transgressed. Heb.
pasha'. Ap. 44. ix. their worm. Quoted in Mark 9:44. Referred by our Lord to Gehenna, of which the fires in the valley of Hinnom were an illustration. Heb. tola', the maggot bred from putrid substances. See Ex. 16:20. Deut. 28:39. Job 25:6 (second word). Ps. 22:6. Isa. 14:11 (second
word); 41:14; 66:24 ; and Jonah 4:7, which are all the occurrences of tola' in O.T.
In the synagogue use, v. 23 is repeated after v. 24, so that the book may end with comfort. Cp, end of Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Malachi. an abhorring. The Heb. occurs only here.
Quote from: Brian on June 08, 2009, 08:01:51 PM
Quote from: Livelystone on June 08, 2009, 07:33:10 PM
There are quite a few things that the jews do not belie in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life. :thumbsup:
Doug
Yes, but if this is a pre Christ, pre Talmud concept, then it would be an Old Testament concept. It would be a concept that Jesus himself, being a Jew, was raised with. Where is hell in the Old Testament? What did God say to Moses about it?
I agree........
Christ is the fulfillment of the law that is the fire......... If Christians ever expect to have the laws of God written on their hearts just as God said so in the OT then they will have to do exactly what Moses did when he got the law and walk into the fire to get it.
Blessings
Doug
CLV Isa 66:24 And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."
Hell is when others are in heaven. Are those in heaven still flesh?
James, thanks,
I guess I overlook the literal word forever and ever any more as I simply don't automatically assume that something translated from ancient text must mean that in a literal sense.
We can find horror in the verses that are in the bible now if we are taught to see them literally that way.
A whole world being drowned alive is but one. I guess I do not have that template within my thinking any more and I thank God for that.
Plucking out ones own eye sounds like a very horrible thing a God would expect from his obedient sheep, so I guess what I read in that link is no different where text only is concerned. ;)
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:31:19 PM
Hi Paul...here, where it SEEMS to say part of this piece is actually from Isaiah...which if so, just brings us back to the "for ever and ever" deal...probably aions, aionios, ages of ages, etc. (?)
"[Our sages tell[2] that at the time when Nebuchadnezzar the impious said: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah xv. 14 {sic. Isaiah xiv. 14}), the Holy Spirit came forth and said: "O impious man! How many are the days of the years of thy life? And there sits the King of Kings, the Holy, blessed be He exalted and high, and thou sayest: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High! Woe unto thee, O impious man and woe unto thy soul, for thou shalt be brought down to the uttermost parts of the pit (cf. Isaiah xiv. 15) to the seven regions of hell to be punished for ever and ever."]
In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD
QuoteIt is not here the place to enter into a more minute disquisition of the history of these visions. We find parallels in the old Ægyptian literature, in the Assyrian we have the well-known "Descensus ad inferos" of Izdubar (Nimrud). The Buddhist literature knows the Suh.rllekha, the letter of Nâgârjuna to King Udayana. In the Avesta literature we have the Nameh of Arda-viraf; in the Mahommedan we have the vision of Mahommed. All these Christian Revelations and of the others, at any rate the last two, are based directly upon those Hebrew visions, a fact which has hitherto not been noticed.
The question is if the Hebrew really was the origin.
I've read an article about the start of the church. That is what we now know as the Catholic church.
Their goal was to convert as many as fast as they could. To reach that goal they did bend the true Word a little to make it sound like pagan stuff. The Christian version speaks about fire and pit/grave. Same for the pagan religions.
To make the pagans feel at home it wasn't told the fire is spiritual. That's how literal fire crepts in. This just one example
QuoteI've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell
I asked this several times but never got an answer "In Dutch we got a saying: Being in the 7th heaven."
Sounds like that comes from the same source as 7 parts of hell.
The writer of the original book is Duth too.
Quote from: Tim B on June 08, 2009, 09:41:37 PM
In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD
It's hard to make a comparison without the hebrew text to study with, but in the OT of the bible you do have a distant comparison.
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.
Sound very different.
Plus he was rescued from the hell that nobody is supposed to leave. Ever.
Companion/Bullinger Bible
For great is Thy grace toward me: And Thou hast delivered my soul from Sheol beneath.
the lowest hell = Sheol beneath. hell. Heb. Sheol. Ap. 35. Not the language of "Semitic heathenism", but the inspired revelation of Divine eschatology.
willieH: Hey brother D! And brother B! :hithere:
BRIAN:Hey -- in answer to you, brother Brian... it is always interesting to find out what the Jews "think" about such a subject, but that Scripture notes them as BLIND for the most part, is a good reason to take their "thoughts" on a given subject, ESPECIALLY one such as "hell", with a HUGE grain or 2 (or 1000) of salt! And NOT, ...conclude that "thought" as true, by taking their "hand" and following them BLINDLY into their ditch! :laughing7:
DOUG:Quote from: Livelystone on June 08, 2009, 07:33:10 PM
There are quite a few things that the jews do not believe in.......... like that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God and it is through Him alone that we may have eternal life. :thumbsup:
Doug
Amen Doug... the
BEST point that could've been made! :happyclap:
Judaism is a
RELIGION... and was and IS, ...AS easily infiltrated by the NEARBY resident proximities of PAGANISM (root of "hell" as believed and proposed by Christianity) to it... as CHRISTIANITY has!
ALL religion is subject to FALSE contentions, as our brother Doug has importantly pointed out above... bringing its own defiled "brand or version", of the "philosphies of God" to the world around them...
RELIGIOUS JEWS still, in futility, pursue the keeping of the Law, which serves as an evidence that their RELIGION has progressed little in SPIRITUAL areas...
Though I know very little of their Relgion (and btw, dont care to know), ...That they don't believe in
JESUS, and DO uphold that the LAW yet remains, ...I ask, ...where is sacrifice for SIN found in this
void version of RELIGION?
They ceased killing and offering animals and such, and from presenting them before GOD in the stead of SIN... Why? Where is the current "mediating substance" in their philosphy? And in what SPIRITUAL writing do they use to note that were they informed to STOP this sacrificing of animals? How is the LAW satisfied?
In that alone, do their philosphies of God, show errosion... They
him&haw, but in the end, the LAW as WRITTEN, requires sacrifice and they fail to fulfill its requirements... therefore their "religion" is found vain, and they, in their preaching of it, meet NOT the standards within it... Failing it, and yet teach it to others as "valid", and support themselves as "valid" practitioners of it... :rolleye:
Therefore, ...for what reason, should we all of a sudden get
all up in a wrinkle about what some "RABBI" says about "hell"? :laughing7:
Yes, ...GOD shall one day lead them ALL into the LIGHT as the CROWNING portion of the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST --
Rom 11:26 -- for the FIRST (Jews) to have FAITH and
believe in
YHVH, shall be the LAST to be introduced to its
SAVING KING --
JESUS CHRIST... to the GLORY of the FATHER, who shall "Ice" the "Cake of Salvation" with His own BELOVED and CHOSEN people... :bgdance:
But in the meantime, such GAPING holes in their "understandings", are reason enough to CONCLUSIVELY ignore them and their less than accurate thinking, in areas such as what ..."hell"... might or might NOT, be...
peace...
...willieH :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 10:17:32 PM
CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.
Sound very different.
Yep, and it would also read very different if the book of moses in question here was translated to say the 7 regions of the unseen.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 08, 2009, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 10:17:32 PM
CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.
Sound very different.
Yep, and it would also read very different if the book of moses in question here was translated to say the 7 regions of the unseen.
But it still doesn't explain where "seven" comes from.
Seven is a divine number. The number of God.
Surely God created everything including 'hell' but somehow 7 doesn't fit in with hell for me. Just a feeling that I can't explain.
Quotethe 7 regions of the unseen
Any idea what "the seven regions of the grave" are?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 10:51:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 08, 2009, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 08, 2009, 10:17:32 PM
CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.
Sound very different.
Yep, and it would also read very different if the book of moses in question here was translated to say the 7 regions of the unseen.
But it still doesn't explain where "seven" comes from.
Seven is a divine number. The number of God.
Surely God created everything including 'hell' but somehow 7 doesn't fit in with hell for me. Just a feeling that I can't explain.
Quotethe 7 regions of the unseen
Any idea what "the seven regions of the grave" are?
I certainly haven't spent enough time reading the book of moses to try to correlate much more with the rest of the bible. But was pointing out that the OT we are most familiar with depicts the unseen as being more than just one singular place.
My first thought is that they are levels of purification.
I just Googled "seven regions of hell"
Almost all religions seem to have it.
Some old book (on Google books) that explains the quaran speaks of seven hell too. All muslims must pass through it to get purified. Makes me think of what you wrote and "all are salted with fire"
I'm not promoting the quaran here. Or any other pagan book. But I think they might have stolen many Christian concepts. Some of their writings may be original Christan concepts that got lost in translations/traditions.
willieH: Hi Paul... :cloud9:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 08, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: Tim B on June 08, 2009, 09:41:37 PM
In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD
It's hard to make a comparison without the hebrew text to study with, but in the OT of the bible you do have a distant comparison.
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
My :2c:
Hmmm... King David (of whom
JESUS descended), went to the LOWEST "HELL"? The WORST and bottomMOST part? :dontknow:
I think this is NOT what is said in this passage... DAVID is expressing his extreme HUMILITY here, not His postional spot on the "roster"...
It is the HUMILITY that EVERY believer should consider himself as occupying, is it not?
PAUL noted this as he proclaimed himself
CHIEF of sinners... God INSPIRED this in Paul's writings to display, that NO MAN, should boast of himself... and FAITHFULLY, such as David and PAUL, wrote accordingly...
After witnessing 63 years of life on earth, and seeing and knowing what I have seen and know...
I cannot percieve PAUL as actually the "CHIEF of SINNERS"... nor that DAVID was placed on the "BOTTOM of the sorrowful pile of SINNERS" ("lowest hell")...
Rather, I percieve that both truly
KNEW YHVH in their hearts, taken to the point of the great and MAJESTIC HUMILITY that
YHVH had chosen them each to WRITE His
WORDS to men, in this realm...
And the only place that one can envision within such HUMILITY that is so proposed in such close and INTIMATE proximity to the
WORD of
YHVH is the "
bottom of the barrel"...
Each time I read PAUL's self-notation as "chief of sinners", I think to myself, :pitiful: ..."as Paul wrote this, obviously GOD did
not giving Paul a vision of "willieH's life"... :blush:
peace... :Peace:
...willieH :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
I was looking to see just what God did tell Moses about "hell", and ran across an apochryphal book called the Revelation of Moses...it has some pretty wild descriptions of "eternal torment" and people being punished.
WARNING! Unless your faith is strong, you may not want to look at this; IMO, except for the authentic scripture mixed in, it's probably pretty much baloney.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1893-15.htm
I'd want to investigate the authenticity/origin of "Revelation of Moses" before I even began to read it. This is one of the things I came up with while Googling "Revelation of Moses"http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/revela.htm. A Mormon document. That makes it pure fiction, not apocrypha.
Good point. Brian, bail me out here. What did you have in mind with the question of what did God tell Moses about hell? (You see what I came up with while looking for that :mblush:)
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:59:07 PM
Isaiah 66:24 KJV And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Young's 24And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!
I'm going to need to study this more, in a larger context, because honestly right now it sounds different to me than "there is no hell in the OT other than the grave" :dontknow: Explanations anyone? Is this talking about Gehenna, for instance?
If this esoteric verse is the main/only thing the OT has to say about hell, then it's not saying much. Which would indicate to me that YHWH doesn't have much to say about it.
Quote from: willieH on June 08, 2009, 10:35:27 PM
willieH: Hey brother D! And brother B! :hithere:
BRIAN:
Hey -- in answer to you, brother Brian... it is always interesting to find out what the Jews "think" about such a subject, but that Scripture notes them as BLIND for the most part, is a good reason to take their "thoughts" on a given subject, ESPECIALLY one such as "hell", with a HUGE grain or 2 (or 1000) of salt! And NOT, ...conclude that "thought" as true, by taking their "hand" and following them BLINDLY into their ditch! :laughing7:
I'm seeking what Judaism has said about it from the get-go. If they're all blind from the get-go then we can toss all the major and minor prophets in the trash. The question is, is the current mainstream Christian concept of hell a purely Holy Roman Empire Catholic invention? Most if not all of what's contained in the NT, is backed up by the OT. Also, Jesus was speaking to Jews (this includes the Apostles), so we must have a clear understanding of Judaic concepts in order for Jesus' statements to be relevant. In other words, we can't introduce Chinese concepts into Jesus' dialog and call them relevant. So, are these modern Christian concepts of hell relevant to Judaism, or from some other source? That takes me back to what's the original Judaic concept based on cannon OT scripture? To me, this is as they say, where the rubber meets the road.
"**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word "Sheol" as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!" Gary Amirault
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2009, 12:11:36 AM
Good point. Brian, bail me out here. What did you have in mind with the question of what did God tell Moses about hell? (You see what I came up with while looking for that :mblush:)
The question was rhetorical. Because the answer is; not one single thing, that I know of. Not an inkling of a warning about eternal punishment/torment. Nothing from the major and minor prophets as well, except one fuzzy after the fact verse in Isaiah and one in Daniel. If it's not in the OT, then that means Jesus and John "invented" it. They were talking about something no Jew had ever heard of before, from cannon OT scripture, but apparently had a perfect traditional post 4th century Christian understanding of.
Quote from: willieH on June 08, 2009, 11:54:19 PM
willieH: Hi Paul... :cloud9:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 08, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: Tim B on June 08, 2009, 09:41:37 PM
In reference to the bolded text: sounds like a bunch of garbage! It doesn't sound like the OT, and I've never heard of the "seven regions" of Hell in any part of the OT or NT. Honestly it sounds like some forgery might have gone on since the original document was created in ancient times. That's my two cents. xD
It's hard to make a comparison without the hebrew text to study with, but in the OT of the bible you do have a distant comparison.
Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
My :2c:
Hmmm... King David (of whom JESUS descended), went to the LOWEST "HELL"? The WORST and bottomMOST part? :dontknow:
I think this is NOT what is said in this passage... DAVID is expressing his extreme HUMILITY here, not His postional spot on the "roster"...
It is the HUMILITY that EVERY believer should consider himself as occupying, is it not?
PAUL noted this as he proclaimed himself CHIEF of sinners... God INSPIRED this in Paul's writings to display, that NO MAN, should boast of himself... and FAITHFULLY, such as David and PAUL, wrote accordingly...
After witnessing 63 years of life on earth, and seeing and knowing what I have seen and know...
I cannot percieve PAUL as actually the "CHIEF of SINNERS"... nor that DAVID was placed on the "BOTTOM of the sorrowful pile of SINNERS" ("lowest hell")...
Rather, I percieve that both truly KNEW YHVH in their hearts, taken to the point of the great and MAJESTIC HUMILITY that YHVH had chosen them each to WRITE His WORDS to men, in this realm...
And the only place that one can envision within such HUMILITY that is so proposed in such close and INTIMATE proximity to the WORD of YHVH is the "bottom of the barrel"...
Each time I read PAUL's self-notation as "chief of sinners", I think to myself, :pitiful: ..."as Paul wrote this, obviously GOD did not giving Paul a vision of "willieH's life"... :blush:
peace... :Peace:
...willieH :thumbsup:
Hi Willie,
I appreciate your thoughts and was not making a statement concerning what hell is or isn't.
I was only pointing out that the modern OT in some translations appears to imply that the word translated to hell is not necessaily one singular place or state, which could give credibility to a similar concept to the book of moses rather than it being contradictory. I personally am not helped or threatened by the existance of any other book.
Gods love will pursue us and claim us in righteousness with or without a written word on anything.
No matter what "HELL" is what it is not is a place of eternal suffering because we are promised deliverance from it's grasp.
Quote from: Brian on June 09, 2009, 12:04:38 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
I was looking to see just what God did tell Moses about "hell", and ran across an apochryphal book called the Revelation of Moses...it has some pretty wild descriptions of "eternal torment" and people being punished.
WARNING! Unless your faith is strong, you may not want to look at this; IMO, except for the authentic scripture mixed in, it's probably pretty much baloney.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1893-15.htm
I'd want to investigate the authenticity/origin of "Revelation of Moses" before I even began to read it. This is one of the things I came up with while Googling "Revelation of Moses"http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/revela.htm. A Mormon document. That makes it pure fiction, not apocrypha.
Well, that answers the question for me. *drop kicks the document* :laughing7: