1000-Year Period

[lsmann2]

Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

Ah, IMO, that's where a "somewhere in the middle, don't fall in the ditch on either side of the road" enters this particular part of the discussion.  I've been wanting to weigh in with this, thanks for the opportunity.

I believe brothers like Nathan have their important place in the body.  Won't mention names, not currently posting much here, but I also believe that's where a brother like ____________ who is very literal, has his important place in the body.  IMO, there is a literal;  a natural, that's it's not all "spiritual", and certainly not all allegorical.  I THINK IT"S BOTH, literal and spiritual.  I see it that many things, though literal, have deeper layers, spiritual meanings as it were.  And that's often where the "nuggets" are...they have to be dug out from beneath.  But that doesn't negate the literal aspect, there's just "more than meets the eye".   My (apparently s/w debatable) understanding is, that many things are primarily "to" others, but all of it for all of us (as God reveals).  As sister Card says, much of it is "hidden in plain sight".

So IMO, it's not all one or the other.  I see it as both;  we need both;  seeing one doesn't negate the other.  My  :2c:.

What is IMO?

[Livelystone]

I can relate to where Nathan is coming from and I too think that the Bible was written for us and for it all to unfold in this time period. On one hand I see it all as allegorical on the other hand there are times times I have to force myself to stop "looking for the real message" because looking for that "hidden message" will cause me to miss the beauty of the simplicity.

Words like "Sermon on the Mount" do not need to interpreted.......... just be allowed to do their perfect work.

Blessings

Doug

[Livelystone]

[/quote]
What is IMO?
[/quote]

In my opinion

[lsmann2]

Thanks, IMO I'd better start prefacing all my posts with IMO!! :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I can relate to where Nathan is coming from and I too think that the Bible was written for us and for it all to unfold in this time period. On one hand I see it all as allegorical on the other hand there are times times I have to force myself to stop "looking for the real message" because looking for that "hidden message" will cause me to miss the beauty of the simplicity.

Words like "Sermon on the Mount" do not need to interpreted.......... just be allowed to do their perfect work.

Blessings

Doug

Yes, good point.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Jab & Nate... :hithere:

I don't mean to be arguementative, nor disrespectful, ...and sincerely seek your responses to what I say below...  :friendstu:

. . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

At that point,  all that will be left will be good and righteous.   All purified by God through that sacrifical Lamb of God.  :thumbsup:

Well... I just don't see this (unimaginable pain and suffering - even for a MOMENT) as part of "GOOD NEWS" to preach to the World -- (the GOSPEL) -- which (has, does & will) contain many "hitler types"...  Also, I see any forecast of TORMENT, TORTURE or PAIN to COME, is also contrary to:

(1) -- JESUS "taking AWAY" the Sin of the World... John 1:29 (if SIN is "taken AWAY", why would there be any FORTHCOMING "negative dealings" BECAUSE of it?) and,

(2) -- Paul's commentary that the ministry of Reconciliation designates SIN as not IMPUTED by God ("sin" inventory has "disappeared") -- 2 Cor 5:19 (if SIN is "not IMPUTED" or "disappeared", then wherein is the requirement of TORMENT, and/or PAIN due to it?)... as well as,

(3) --  CHRIST, in presenting the NEW COVENANT teaching of GRACE -- Matt 5:43-48 -- and PAUL, presenting JUSTIFICATION by it -- Rom 5:18-20 -- which notes to FORGIVE enemies... And does NOT teach that we "include a PRIOR BEATING, or TORTURE" of them (the "forgiven enemy"), before administering said "forgiveness"... 

Is there not therefore, a form of CONDEMNATION, administered within this proposed TORMENT and/or TORTURE?  The offender/enemy getting the "dickens" for his misdeeds -- THEN is "Forgiven"?  :wacko2:

Let me see... You "deserve" me to beat the LIVING #@*&% out of you, so I proceed to beat the LIVING #@*&% out of you, and THEN "forgive" you?  What kind of "GRACE" have I exhibited toward you?  And what kind of method of "FORGIVENESS" is this? 

You GOT what you "deserved, did you not? ...and certainly there was NO "GRACE" OR "FORGIVENESS" by ME toward YOU, presented... 

Once you GOT what you "deserved", then there was no further reason to withold "forgiveness"... for you PAID for your own misdeeds... To me that is DOUBLE TALK... and the language of IMPERFECTION...

The only way GRACE is GRACE... is if you get "forgiven" because LOVE stood up for you and took your JUST and DUE punishments...  And WITHIN that, was... GRACIOUS toward you, as it was YOU which "deserved" those punishments...  :dontknow:

If I go to the courtroom and tell you before the sentencing, I give you GOOD NEWS -- which IS, that I shall stand up for you after the penalty for YOUR misbehavior is pronounced!  Then, the JUDGE pronounces that you are due either 10 years in prison OR $100,000 fine for your MISBEHAVIOR,  ...and then, I remain silent (keeping my money in my pocket) and let you go into prison for the 10 years... what "GRACE" did I end up presenting on YOUR BEHALF?   :omg: 

And then, when you get "out", ...I am found expecting you to be "thankful" to me for my "FORGIVENESS" of you? :mnah:  For WHAT?  :mshock:  I didn't lift a finger for you!

Sorry, ...but I think this "proposal" to be a lot of BS (and IN LINE with "eye4eye justice", not NEW COVENANT GRACE)...  :sigh:  And is certainly NOT a picture of -- "GOOD NEWS"  :Shoot:

Defiled by the presentation of BAD NEWS... claiming it to be GOOD... :mnah:

Curious as to how a proposal of PAIN & TORMENT, ...all figures into a "FORGIVENESS--NOT IMPUTING--TAKEN AWAY" -- GOSPEL -- GOOD NEWS, ...type of scenario...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :grouppray:

[Nathan]

Okay, first off . . . I want to clarify that in all my posts, I've never said there is no literal . . in fact I've said just the opposite . . .I believe there are actually three . . .one is literal/historical/physical, the next is moral dealing with inner values of a corporate body, and then there's the inward, the spiritual . . .all for me, are aligned with the tabernacle . . all are necessary and all are maturity levels we endure and progress through.  But having said that . . .it's the spirit we're to walk in and pursue . .the previous are stepping stones that lead to the inward . . .the heart of God. 

So even though many of my posts may seem out there . . .it's because 99% of Christians seem to already have the Bible stories themselves down, the moral principles are clearly taught by the church . .but you seldom are exposed to the spiritual . . in fact, it get's confused with the moral . . .it get's left out most of the time because people who embrace the literal have a serious problem with seeing it spiritually . . .one leads into the other, but once you enter into the new room, you no longer carry with you the equipment necessary for the previous room.  There lies the crux.  Laying down what got me here is the hardest thing for me to do . .but if I don't lay it down here . . .the Spirit can't usher me into "there".  Because literal and spiritual don't mix.  One "can" lead you to the other, but again, once you reach that level of maturity in your relationship with God . . .you lay down the elements you utilized that got you there.

Willie, I submit my comments to you bro . . .my comments dealing with death and judgment with the hitlers out there were not based on experience as many of my others are . . .they were based on perception, nothing more.  I want to be pliable enough in the Father that change comes easy, not hard . .and without resentment against another.  May I grow from your words and I appreciate your clarifying and edifying words more than my words will ever say.  I see what you're saying and as in other times in my own experiences, my mind does sometimes wrestle with the idea that the cross was not just for the judgment of the just, but the unjust as well . . .still hard to comprehend the depths of that.

[claypot]

Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

[willieH]

willieH: Hi dear brother N... :hithere:

You are a gleaming example of God brother... and, let me tell you, ...with YOUR WORDS, does the Father bless me often! (I can only speak for myself, but I am quite sure there is much agreement by others here to these words)

Willie, I submit my comments to you bro . . .my comments dealing with death and judgment with the hitlers out there were not based on experience as many of my others are . . .they were based on perception, nothing more.  I want to be pliable enough in the Father that change comes easy, not hard . .and without resentment against another.  May I grow from your words and I appreciate your clarifying and edifying words more than my words will ever say.  I see what you're saying and as in other times in my own experiences, my mind does sometimes wrestle with the idea that the cross was not just for the judgment of the just, but the unjust as well . . .still hard to comprehend the depths of that.

I spent 25 years within the Orthodox system, in various churches, mostly finding membership in The Salvation Army and 7th Day Adventists... through which God took me on a journey in which He exposed many of the "biggies" taught within that system...

I spent time with "tongues" in the --- Pentecostal independents and Assembly of God church,  ...and a slew of time with "Hellfire" --- Baptists, Healing Rooms International, and Salvation Army --- as well as "Annhilation and Sabbath" with the SDA's... Not to mention my own battles in the World as a professional musician... in which the foolishnesses of drinking, drugs, and adulterous temptations often assaulted me...  But He stood STRONG in my corner, and IN HIM and by HIS STRENGTH, ...have He and I fought my way out of ALL of these...

One day... amongst all this... I went to a secluded place in Spokane along the river... put my Bible before me on the Ground which GOD created... and amongst His Nature... and on my knees, ...I cried out with the entirety of my heart and the water of my eyes, the frustrations of my fallible manhood and humanity... noting to Him that I was nothing but a stupid man, which actually had found NO PEACE within those 25 years of "church" and "music"...

I opened to 2 Peter 3:9 and said this unto Him:  Father, if I were to have ONE WISH, I would have it be, that YOU get YOUR WISH... that NONE perish, and that ALL come to repentence...  :crywipe:

In that very moment... He began a new journey for me... For up until that time, I had NO KNOWLEDGE of the Salvation of ALL...  I went home and wrote a piece called "The WISH"... it was more a testimony than a song... although I consider it of the most dear to my heart, and of the most creative and blessed "writing moments" of my life...

This new journey has become PEACE for me brother... for not only did I discover that GOD's "wish" was coming true all along... but that PEACE was the formula for its realization...  In GOOD NEWS... only news that is GOOD, can be noted... for if ANY "bad news" is included... then a speck of its DARKNESS is seen defiling the whiteness of its purity and LIGHT...

He has been continually unveiling these 2 particular TRUTHS -- SALVATION of ALL, and the TRUTH of PEACE...  

Many will call me a "wishful" thinker... and really, I could care less... for I have PEACE in my heart concerning the ONE who LOVES me MOST...

I believe the Scriptures to be His LOVE SONG, written to His BELOVED ones... It's beauty is UNDEFILED by the horrors that the Sinful mind is able to erect which include PAIN induced FORGIVENESS...  instead, it is the BEAUTY which is proposed for ASHES... the LOVE which is ours FOREVER... and to me, bro... There is no "news" that even compares to it... for it is COMPLETE for ALL, in Him...

He is the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20 -- and

His message is the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

I am blessed to call you my brother, Nathan... and you occupy both the position of teacher to me (via His Hand), and are brother to me in so many ways I cannot describe... only suffice it to say that in His SPIRIT, are we brothers... and no other place is as wonderful, lasting, or comparable...  :friendstu:

Peace be unto you in all you do bro...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi guys.....blessings abound on here....... :thumbsup:

I just wanted to add a little witness here, to the 1000 year thing, from witness of the Tabernacle. It was roughly 2000 years or 2 days from Adam to Moses, again roughly 2 days or 2000 years from Moses to Jesus, and 2 days or 2000 years from Jesus to the present. This brings us up to the dawning of the 7th day.

So if we understand that Adam's and Moses's "part" in the Tabernacle is represented by the outer court and therefore is 2000/2 days + 2000/2 days = 4000/4 days.

And then the inner court portion of the Tabernacle is the 2000/2 days that Jesus spoke of in saying, "Tell Herod that fox, that today (1 day/1000) and tomorrow (1 day/1000), I will do cures and cast out devils, is the 2 days/2000 years of Pentecost......

THEN it should be easy to see that the 3rd day, which lines up with the Holy of Holies in pattern, (1000/7th day from beginning) in which He said HE would be resurrected (raised up), HAS COME UPON THIS GENERATION.

So it's the 3rd day from Jesus, but the 7th day from Adam.

And so now; WHERE is Christ and is He not now a Spirit, for Paul said hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but after the Spirit, yes? So then, this makes sense what it says about Him being IN US, and that we are to be (caught up) INTO HIM.

Because; HE IS THE 7TH DAY, He IS the REST we were promised, IN HIM is no part darkness, there is nothing in the Holy of Holies, but Him at the right hand of the Father.

So as He is being resurrected up out these "graves" He's been planted in, so too shall we be caught up with Him, for if the SAME SPIRIT that raised Christ from the dead, dwell in you........Blessings.....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi cp...  :icon_king:

I agree, Nathan does present his thoughts VERY WELL!

Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

To begin with cp, what does "GRACE" mean?  We are not to JUDGE... for in our own reflection is SIN found in the mirror...  Just because society deems that killing is worse than dishonoring your mother, does not find differentiation in the Eyes of GOD, for offending the Law in ANY point, offends the whole standard for it is ONE!

If we wish to find the benevolence of GRACE... it is not found in noting another's deeds as worse than ones own...  GRACE is best obtained in a more SELF--focused confession...

IOW -- I don't say, "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum, but at least it isn't as bad as ______ (whomever you might like to suggest) was when he called his mother a  :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:
Instead I say,  "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum" .  <-- PERIOD!

As my previous posts outlined... "FORGIVENESS" with the "prerequisite" of TORMENT in order to "bring things back to even", is hardly "FORGIVENESS" at all... 

Let's see, something like:  "...I'll "FORGIVE" you AFTER, ...I have suffieciently TORTURED you for what YOU did..."

Hmmm... what is WRONG with this picture?  Is it not in the "eye4eye" format which JESUS said was NO LONGER in force?  Matt 5:43-48

Where is New Covenant GRACE which teaches to FORGIVE, BLESS and LOVE, enemies?  Where does this teaching in Matt 5 & Luke 6 instruct to TORTURE the "enemy" first, before this FORGIVENESS, BLESSING and LOVE is "bestowed"?

No man is able to be involved in the MOMENT of DEATH of another... In that MOMENT, what can take place?  It GOD limited?  Is this a "moment of reckoning"?  I guess we must DIE to find out, eh?

I cannot say what the moment of DEATH holds until I experience it... however...

Men are ordained to live as GOD has noted they shall -- He DECLARED the entirety of the length and History of Humanity, before ONE MOMENT had occured -- Isaiah 46:10-11

Also... GOD is completely IMPARTIAL... what He does for ONE, that IMPARTIALITY requires He do for another...

Paul notes in Romans 9:18-20 that He DOES as HE chooses, and no man has the right to object to the process...

I have pointed out on several occasions, that GOD -- KNOWING beforehand, ALL that Hitler would DO... brought him forth regardless...  and DID NOTHING to stop those actions from occuring...  :dontknow:  Can GOD be considered exempt from those actions?

Let's put it this way... If you saw a man beating his wife... and stood by watching, would another consider you justified in your inaction?  Hey - it was your choice, but was it the right one?  Another would judge you as CONDONING the beating, because you opted to abstain from intervening...  Well what about GOD, cp?

Not only did He KNOW what hitler would DO, but He brought him forth anyway, and then did NOTHING to stop him... Why?  -- Rom 9:18 ...whom HE WILL, ...He HARDENETH.

The negativity we see in man, is PURPOSED, otherwise, it would not occur... and remains IN and UNDER, ...HIS CONTROL... Rom 13:1

I hope I have answered you cp... let me know...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[aspiring son]

willieH: Hi cp...  :icon_king:

I agree, Nathan does present his thoughts VERY WELL!

Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

To begin with cp, what does "GRACE" mean?  We are not to JUDGE... for in our own reflection is SIN found in the mirror...  Just because society deems that killing is worse than dishonoring your mother, does not find differentiation in the Eyes of GOD, for offending the Law in ANY point, offends the whole standard for it is ONE!

If we wish to find the benevolence of GRACE... it is not found in noting another's deeds as worse than ones own...  GRACE is best obtained in a more SELF--focused confession...

IOW -- I don't say, "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum, but at least it isn't as bad as ______ (whomever you might like to suggest) was when he called his mother a  :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:
Instead I say,  "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum" .  <-- PERIOD!

As my previous posts outlined... "FORGIVENESS" with the "prerequisite" of TORMENT in order to "bring things back to even", is hardly "FORGIVENESS" at all... 

Let's see, something like:  "...I'll "FORGIVE" you AFTER, ...I have suffieciently TORTURED you for what YOU did..."

Hmmm... what is WRONG with this picture?  Is it not in the "eye4eye" format which JESUS said was NO LONGER in force?  Matt 5:43-48

Where is New Covenant GRACE which teaches to FORGIVE, BLESS and LOVE, enemies?  Where does this teaching in Matt 5 & Luke 6 instruct to TORTURE the "enemy" first, before this FORGIVENESS, BLESSING and LOVE is "bestowed"?

No man is able to be involved in the MOMENT of DEATH of another... In that MOMENT, what can take place?  It GOD limited?  Is this a "moment of reckoning"?  I guess we must DIE to find out, eh?

I cannot say what the moment of DEATH holds until I experience it... however...

Men are ordained to live as GOD has noted they shall -- He DECLARED the entirety of the length and History of Humanity, before ONE MOMENT had occured -- Isaiah 46:10-11

Also... GOD is completely IMPARTIAL... what He does for ONE, that IMPARTIALITY requires He do for another...

Paul notes in Romans 9:18-20 that He DOES as HE chooses, and no man has the right to object to the process...

I have pointed out on several occasions, that GOD -- KNOWING beforehand, ALL that Hitler would DO... brought him forth regardless...  and DID NOTHING to stop those actions from occuring...  :dontknow:  Can GOD be considered exempt from those actions?

Let's put it this way... If you saw a man beating his wife... and stood by watching, would another consider you justified in your inaction?  Hey - it was your choice, but was it the right one?  Another would judge you as CONDONING the beating, because you opted to abstain from intervening...  Well what about GOD, cp?

Not only did He KNOW what hitler would DO, but He brought him forth anyway, and then did NOTHING to stop him... Why?  -- Rom 9:18 ...whom HE WILL, ...He HARDENETH.

The negativity we see in man, is PURPOSED, otherwise, it would not occur... and remains IN and UNDER, ...HIS CONTROL... Rom 13:1

I hope I have answered you cp... let me know...

...willieH  :cloud9:

This brings me to something that has been stirring in my heart. Since I've been introduced to UR I've only heard of this age-abiding torment. But everyone is dealt hardship and torment in life. The godly are dealt pain and hardship, but we have Christ. The ungodly are dealt hardship AND are still trapped in their sin. This is enlightening. And I hold your opinion very highly as well Willie ( along with Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, Nathan, and many others who are clearly seasoned as God's people). It's been about three yrs, since God showed me that all will be saved. I don't post as much as I just read and take in. Sometimes I want to respond but by time I've read everyone's post I feel like I don't have to. I just want you all to know you sharpen me constantly and I"m greatful for the wisdom of God in this Place!

Grace and Peace,

Brandon

[claypot]

Willie, You have helped with your words. I fully understand that God could have stopped Hitler anytime and the rapist and so forth. I understand too some of the responsibility of God in all things.

I started asking my recent questions just to explain how hard it is for the average person today to understand, well, grace. Grace is amazing. It forgives and cleans up 'Hitler' as well as Mother Theresa. It just does.

But it is no wonder how people mostly can't understand this. I think this is mostly an American thing too although not limited to Americans. I mean we are taught that the bad guys got to pay the ultimate price for their badness while the good guys win out. It's hard to understand that good guys and bad guys just are and that's the way it is.

So Willie, are you thinking that people who enjoy doing evil and spend their days here on earth doing so.......do you think they eventually just go through the same process as you and I to be made in the image of God?

Willie you say the negativity we see in man is purposed. I imagine you mean purposed by God, correct?

I see some people who do evil as incapable of doing otherwise at least at the time they are doing it. Do you think a guy who can just up and kill another person almost just for the fun of it could do otherwise? Do we all kill others like Jesus said when He spoke about us being angry with another is like murder? So are the rapists and killers that abound in the physical just like us who do it in the realm of the mind?

I will probably never kill another human and will probably always see it as wrong while another will do the deed without hardly a thought. Is this just how we are made? I have my reasons for not killing or raping in the physical. I seem to be guided by an inner make up that makes certain things very unappealing to me yet others have not this make up in them so they can do things I would never do.

So Willie, would you say a rapist, because of his make up will rape while you or I probably won't ever rape because stuff in our make up will keep us from such a deed?

Would you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

cp

[rosered]

   This is a great thread  guys , being blessed to read your thoughts on these matters

  :icon_flower:   I  thought of  something Peter wrote  when reading  Claypots  question
about the rapist scenario ,
we all suffer here in our flesh and spirit , no one is exempt !!

and how would we  NOT know'' perceive '' evil  unless the Lord ''turned one over''  for this use ?
Peter  put his in a way  that I can totally ''get it '  seems when you are conscientiously  aware   of the presence of the Lord    we consider all things  working together  for the good of those  called  by Him  to suffer for doing GOOD WORKS   and dying also in the flesh  that our spirit is in the Lord [innocent ] many of little ones  ,  natually seaking and spiritually speaking  have died also this Death ..
  but the  flesh has no thought of Gods ''presence ''  and the conscience is not aware

these are all in Adam and do die  without knowledge of God  , such as hitler  maybe ?
  I do not know if he died guilt ridden  or not  , guilt to me is a  sign of tresspass [sin]   and we know Christ died that we can be saved  from death   and hell [grave] 







Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: 


1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 


1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 


1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. 


1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 


1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 


1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 


1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 


1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 


1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 


1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 


1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 


1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 

 
you guys keep a going with this ...
  I did not mean to ''butt'' in  :dontknow:
    but the words of Peter come to mind , on how we do suffer  for well doing or evil doing
on How God wills/ desires   it to come to pass, and be so  for each and every one of us
  born in this world

  God bless  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

I was giving you props, Nathan.  If it seemed I was placing you in the "no literal at all" camp, I had noticed an earlier post in this thread where you said "for me, it's all spiritual".  Soooo...maybe I took what you said too literally  :laughing7:.  Hey at least I was paying attention to what you said  :happy3:.    You've clarified, good, thanks. :Peace2:   You get no big arguments from me.  Again, I think both views/a mixture of views is important for the growth of the Body.

Same with you, Bro Willi.  Though I do believe there will be "aonian chastisement", I don't swear to know what that is, how long it is (if it's a second or 100 years)...I don't know.  My guess would be, none of us do for sure.  I do think the "here and now" ideas of LOF etc. are intrigueing.  I benefit from your POV, I just think there's still much none of understand or ever will as long as we're mortal.  Not that we shouldn't seek truth, share truth, etc., just that IMO, we still see through a glass darkly...perhaps it's getting clearer, and thanks for your sharing.  :thumbsup:  There are many carrying pieces of the picture, and I believe there's a lot of good perspective and food for thought in your posts.

And yeah, don't be argumentative and disrespectful, you wascal  :laughing7:.

[rosered]

I was giving you props, Nathan.  If it seemed I was placing you in the "no literal at all" camp, I had noticed an earlier post in this thread where you said "for me, it's all spiritual".  You've clarified, good.  You get no big arguments from me.  Again, I think both views/a mixture of views is important for the growth of the Body.

Same with you, Bro Willi.  Though I do believe there will be "aonian chastisement", I don't swear to know what that is, how long it is (if it's a second or 100 years)...I don't know.  My guess would be, none of us do for sure.  I benefit from your POV, I just think there's still much none of understand or ever will as long as we're mortal.  Not that we shouldn't seek truth, share truth, etc., just that IMO, we still see through a glass darkly...perhaps it's getting clearer, and thanks for your sharing.  :thumbsup:

  Hey Jabby  :icon_flower:
     I agree with your assessment  bro .
  and  i always  get ''confused ''  when trying to sort out the natural from the spiritual

   my error lol..  :sigh:   this is just my honest answer  though 
  still praying for that ''gift of discernment ''  :thumbsup:

    this is one reason why I dont post as much  these days , to  speak for God
on how He is doing things  is  way  over my head  :HeartThrob:

and I am not certain on how it all will go down ...but God does do a perfect work  , that I am sure of
  God bless  :HeartThrob:

[legoman]

Good thread.  Much to contemplate, both natural and spiritual.  I agree rosered, I get confused too.

What I know for sure:
- God is love
- God is in control
- God will save all

How He does it, that is another story.... everyone has their theories, scriptures, and interpretations.  I'm still learning.

That's where the faith comes in I suppose.

Peace.

[jabcat]

yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

[rosered]

yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

LOL    good one Jabby  hee hee  :thumbsup: :grin:  me too learning to listen to the   right voice that speaks  reason
   ''right on ''leggoman!    GOD IS IN POWER!! I see hand as ''power'' to do '' in a spiritual sense


do you think that is what Jesus meant when he said'' Therefore when you do [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 


Mat 6:3 But when you do alms, let not your  left hand know what your  right hand does: 
Mat 6:4 That your  alms may be in secret: and thy Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you  openly.   

  God is not far away as I supposed,  many years ago when I was younger .
  I more see it now as the battle is ''within '' us  and God is gaining ground   daily !  :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: Whoo Hoo !!  !  :HeartThrob:
 

[peacemaker]

Would you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

Jesus said, "I AM the RESURRECTION."

He declares that the hour is coming and "now is" when the dead shall hear His voice and live.

I show you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

We seem to be in a period of testing and trials to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom to act or make a decision. A period of probation; a time to be considerate or thoughtful by the Grace of God. And the right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.

But rest assured, He will rectify the misguided in due time.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

This is the state of one who has returned to life from the sting of death.


peacemaker

[reFORMer]

yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

One advantage of being aware that one is confused is it means one is not reprobate...or so I think...probably...anyway, that is one interior state in which I am an ever improving expert...in case you might not have wanted to know...

I wanted to post in this thread so I could be alerted to its development.  I've been following it from the first. Everybody else is saying much of what I would say.

It's a wonderful thing: realizing in truth that I am both redundant and confused!!!  Now, if I can just continue getting no answers to my prayers...

[sparrow]

I am loving this thread.
Willie.. I really connect with what you are saying.
Thanks, brother.

[claypot]

PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

[claypot]

Some of my take on the 'sufferings' of those who go to the grave still doing and finding no problem with doing evil is this........

Judgement is a good thing. It is a time of revealing what really is. When those who have not really seen sin for what it is, do finally see it, they will be crushed, ashamed, horrified and so on at what they did and what sin has made of them. This, to me, is an outer darkness, gnashing of teeth experience. It is not God torturing anyone or an eternal torment kind of thing, it is what it is.

Now when God shows them how He was involved and how He is making all come out right, that is when salvation and healing will come. Same as with us who know something of salvation now.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: His judgments are unto victory, which is why He didn't leave anyone out of them. Blessings....