Tentmaker Forum

Do we reign with Christ for a thousand years on this earth or in heaven? 

Please Help!

Thanks, Fstamp...

To those who have eyes to see, the answer is both, not either or.

If we are saved,
we will reign with Christ for a thousand years on this earth,
before we physically die.

Do not be intrigued by something that is said to be given to you afterlife.
What are you going to do, if that is different from what you have thought it would be?
No one will compensate you, but you have to face it.

[Mat 7:22-23]
22/ Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name,
and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23/ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Quote from: 70sevens on May 04, 2009, 04:55:01 PM


If we are saved,
we will reign with Christ for a thousand years on this earth,
before we physically die.

Do not be intrigued by something that is said to be given to you afterlife.
What are you going to do, if that is different from what you have thought it would be?
No one will compensate you, but you have to face it.

[Mat 7:22-23]
22/ Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name,
and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23/ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

What will you be doing during that millenial reign?

Quote from: sparrow on May 04, 2009, 07:12:09 PM
What will you be doing during that millenial reign?

What am I supposed to do?

Quote from: 70sevens on May 05, 2009, 01:41:13 AM

Quote from: sparrow on May 04, 2009, 07:12:09 PM
What will you be doing during that millenial reign?

What am I supposed to do?

No, I'm asking you....
You say "if we are saved, we will reign with Christ for a thousand years on this life.."

So, from your perspective, what are those who will be reigning, be doing?

We exist in two realms, the physical and the spiritual, earthly and heavenly, temporary and permanent.

As ones who sit in heavenly places with Christ, we indeed rule. However, on earth we are to reign as well. Paul brings this out in a couple of places:

Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

1Co 4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us. Yes, and I wish that you did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Unfortunately we hear very little about the fact that during our time here on earth, we indeed were made to reign, just as we do in heaven with Christ. He too exists in the same two realms, in heaven as he is, and on earth in us, his body. Thus, as he rules and has authority, so do we.

What do we do? What he is working in us to do. He grants us to witness to the reality that we in fact do reign. It is our own wrong perceptions that deceives us into thinking we do not. As Paul also wrote: "As you have received the Lord Jesus, so walk in him." This is not about what you do, but about what he has done in you, to recognize it and thus witness it in your life. What we recognize is that we are rooted in him, built up and firm in the faith. Do not let appearances deceive you my brother.

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on May 05, 2009, 02:30:48 AM
We exist in two realms, the physical and the spiritual, earthly and heavenly, temporary and permanent.

As ones who sit in heavenly places with Christ, we indeed rule. However, on earth we are to reign as well. Paul brings this out in a couple of places:

Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

1Co 4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us. Yes, and I wish that you did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Unfortunately we hear very little about the fact that during our time here on earth, we indeed were made to reign, just as we do in heaven with Christ. He too exists in the same two realms, in heaven as he is, and on earth in us, his body. Thus, as he rules and has authority, so do we.

What do we do? What he is working in us to do. He grants us to witness to the reality that we in fact do reign. It is our own wrong perceptions that deceives us into thinking we do not. As Paul also wrote: "As you have received the Lord Jesus, so walk in him." This is not about what you do, but about what he has done in you, to recognize it and thus witness it in your life. What we recognize is that we are rooted in him, built up and firm in the faith. Do not let appearances deceive you my brother.
Ron

Are you directing this to me... or seventy7's or to just anyone in general??

:laughing7:

I was just trying to figure out what seventy7's idea of "reigning" was...
What it actually meant.
I like to read other's views on this.
that's all.

It was mainly aimed the question of what we are to do during that reign.  I felt that for any brother to focus solely on another life to come would be to miss the reigning that I see for us now on this earth. So directed at no one in particular. :bigGrin:

Quote from: sparrow on May 05, 2009, 02:24:02 AM

Quote from: 70sevens on May 05, 2009, 01:41:13 AM

Quote from: sparrow on May 04, 2009, 07:12:09 PM
What will you be doing during that millenial reign?

What am I supposed to do?

No, I'm asking you....
You say "if we are saved, we will reign with Christ for a thousand years on this life.."

So, from your perspective, what are those who will be reigning, be doing?

I will be doing what I am doing now,
i.e. sitting on twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Hope you understand.)

However, I guess your question is more relevant to yourself.
Because millenial reign of this life is open to everyone
whilst millenal reign afterlife is veiled to everyone.
So your question is more applicabe to yourself  than me.
Anyway, I have answered your question,
would please answer me now.
I am so curious.


gregoryfl :

The issue here is whether the millenial reign comes in this "life" or 
"afterlife (after physical death).

Regarding your explanation of "the physical and the spiritual,
earthly and heavenly, temporary and permanent",
if we become spiritual in this life,
then the physical will be swallowed up by the spiritual and all become spritual,
heavenly and permanent to us.

Ok, I'm slightly confused. Maybe I should just back away from this conversation before I become totally perplexed.
:laughing7:

Peace ya'll..
carry on.  :HeartThrob:


sparrow

Quote from: sparrow on May 05, 2009, 07:18:25 AM
Ok, I'm slightly confused. Maybe I should just back away from this conversation before I become totally perplexed.
:laughing7:

Peace ya'll..
carry on.  :HeartThrob:

sparrow

Yes,
Away from Jesus, otherwise you will be totally perplexed.

[John 6:60]
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

God bless.

Hi 70.  Clarifying...she'll be perplexed unless she steps away from Jesus?  I see the context of John 6:60 as directly in response to this; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him".  They didn't understand the symbolic/spiritual aspect of the saying.  Could you clarify please?  Now I'm a little perplexed  :laughing7:.  Thanks  :thumbsup:, God's blessing.  James.

Hi jabcat,

Yes, the disciples did not understand what Jesus was saying,
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."
They did not understand symbolic/spiritual aspects of the above saying,
and so perplexed.

Likewise, we are perplexed when we hear the living words of Jesus regarding
"millennial reign in this life", "sitting on twelve thrones and judging
the twelve tribes of Israel", etc, as now,
as we do not understand symbolic/spiritual aspects of that saying.

Disciples did not understand Jesus, and perplexed and left Him.
In the same way, we do not understand Jesus,
and become perplexed and leave Him.
What is the difference?

I wanted to say the truth to all that if we meet Jesus we will be totally perplexed.
That is the point.

God bless.

I do love subjects such as these . . .the thousand year reign . . . I think Gregory was hitting on all pistons with his responses.  I also think the "thousand year" issue is not about a measured amount of time as much as it's about what everything else in Scripture is about . . .it's about the person of Jesus.

The book of Revelation for me is built upon the foundation already established by God through Moses.  All the articles of the tabernacle are directly related to the finished works, to the personality, to the purpose and nature of Christ.  When I take the thousand year reign and try to fit it into an actual time frame, I'm not really letting Scripture interpret itself, I'm interpreting it with my own reasoning instead.

But when you let Scripture interpret itself, then the answers become visible rather than imaginative.  It's kind of like a seed . . .when you bury it, it's hidden until the rains come . . .and once they come, there's no digging, there's only revealing.  The framework of this unveiling started with the tabernacle where there were measurments done there as well.  And there are a couple prophets that God instructed to "measure" this same temple.  And John was instructed this as well . ..but he was also told "not" to measure the outer court . .the outer court is not a measured off piece of realestate, but it's a dimension . .and it's a people.  Depending on which perspective you choose to see it from.

But the thousand years . . .it comes from the dimensions of the innermost place of the tabernacle . . .it's dimensions were 10x10x10.  There were 10 plagues .  .these 10 plagues systematically removed the Egyptian strongholds that finally freed Israel from their slavery .  . .Egypt is a type of sin. 

Then in place of the plagues, commands were given . . .this is much like the Old Covenant being replaced by the New . . .but that happened at the cross.  I probably shouldn't use that analogy as it could confuse you.  Perhaps we could say the law replaced the slavery to sin temporarily until the time came for true freedom to manifest. 

The number multiplied times itself in threes speaks of divine purpose and completion.  The Holy of Holies is a picture of that completion . . .where all things are at rest.  Thus the reference to reigning "with" Christ who is "seated" on the throne.  Ephesians says we are also seated with him . . .we're not "going" to be, but we already "are".  So the thousand year reign for me is speaking of those who've passed through the milk of relationship, and outer court living for God . . .and have also passed through the laboring of ministries and religions all in the name of God . . .and have hound themselves worshiping at the altar of incense, the threshold that causes the worshiper to pass through the veil and into the glory and residence of God . . .all of this is what happens "within" us in our relationship with the Father.

As to the comment of being perplexed when the Son is revealed . . .for me, the perplexity is only confusing to the mind of man . . .but we are not souls, we are spirits . . .we are spirits that have souls that live in bodies . .but we "are" spirits.  And that is also who the Father and Son are as well . .they are Spirit . .so that when Jesus manifests himself to us . . .we are not perplexed, but we are "enabled" to comprehend.  Not through teachings, but through revelation by way of relationship.

The disciples didn't understand because they were still trying to fit spiritual truth into their carnal thinking and all it did was confuse them . . . and rather than step out and accept Truth in faith, they turned away from Truth and turned back to their own imaginations of what they perceived God to be.

It's as Peter replied to Jesus . . ."where else is there to go?"  They went in faith even though they could not logically comprehend.

Quote from: gregoryfl on May 05, 2009, 02:30:48 AM

What do we do? What he is working in us to do. He grants us to witness to the reality that we in fact do reign. It is our own wrong perceptions that deceives us into thinking we do not. As Paul also wrote: "As you have received the Lord Jesus, so walk in him." This is not about what you do, but about what he has done in you, to recognize it and thus witness it in your life. What we recognize is that we are rooted in him, built up and firm in the faith. Do not let appearances deceive you my brother.

Ron

Brother Nathan,


1.  Current Millennial Reign

I understand basically your views on the subject are not much different from that of gregoryfl above.

I sense that the above statement is not coming from experience, but knowledge.
Why I say this is that :
He emphasizes "we should walk in Him".
This is another type of the law.
So many years believers were said to act as such, but no can do.

Why? Because the believers did not receive the Lord Jesus at the first place.
They think they received Jesus, but in reality they did not.
That's why, they could not walk in Him despite of repetitive advices to do so.

Millennial reign comes to us automatically if we receive the Lord Jesus.
You don't have to make legalistic statement like
"Oh, you have millennial reign already, practice it."

The deceived point is not that we forget we already have millennial reign,
but our understanding that we already have received the Lord Jesus,
without receiving Him in reality.

Grapevine brings forth grape fruit.
If no fruit, check the Vine itself. It must be brier.
Do not say to brier, if you keep on trying, you will produce grape. 

[Luke 6:43-44]
43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes,
or grapes from briers.


2. Being perplexed at Jesus

Jesus studied through Bible/sermons will be totally different from real Jesus to meet.
So when we are blessed to meet Jesus, we all will be perplexed at Him.
Jesus is "a person" to meet, not to be studied.
Have you met this person, Jesus?


3.  Peter vs Disciples left

You have given a wonderful analysis.
Then, are you sure that you are represented by Peter, not by the disciples left?
Are you a person who is saying now to Jesus "where else is there to go?"

God bless.

Not really sure who you're addressing there in your post sevens . . .you mention my name, but the quote you posted was not mine.  And I'm not sure what it is in the post that you perceive to be knowledge over experience.

But I do agree that there is an image of God the church has projected that may not be the true nature of God at all.  And when people are "born again" into a church of religion, what is it they're being born into?  Often times I wonder if they are not going from the bondage of sin into the bondage of religion . . .

It's all due process . . .many must first go through the various bondages before coming fully into the freedom of life.  If they come in ignorance of the consequences of the freedom, then the freedom itself could become a stumbling block.  Only the Spirit can discern where the maturity level is in the individuals. 

But again, when the "day" has arrived . .the Sabbath day . . .the 7th from the garden of creation . . . the seven generation from Adam was Enoch . . a picture of resurrection . . .Jesus "is" the Sabbath . . .he is the 3rd day . . .this century . . .literally, is the 3rd day from Christ's manifestation of flesh . . .I think that changes the "maturity" rule . . .it's all in preparation for the whole earth coming into the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

well, the way I see it is like this....

  as far as we heed and do Christ's commands in this life..

  we rule over our own sinful flesh/earth..when we put to death

  the sin in our flesh..and bring everythought unto subjection to

   Christ...we are ruling with Him or seated in Heavenly places

  with Him in this manner when we follow the leading of the

  Holy spirit.


   When we leave this earthly body and are resurrected and are

like the angels..we will be assigned to someone in this earth

that is due to inherit eternal life/salvation[as ministering angels]

  In this way we reign also over the powers of darkness.


   The High Preist as His portion received the breast portion..

also known as the WAVE BREAST OFFERING. You will note

that Christ is girded about the paps...this signifies how He is

  girded[a mere woman shall encompass a man/a new thing]

   Jerusalem Above is just that..she nurtures and feeds

  spiritually the children of God.SOS 5;2 Matt 3;16


  a WAVE-move to and fro/flutter  Breast..is a perfect

  symbology of the Holy spirit as a dove. Issaih 60;8


  WHO ARE THESE? THAT FLY ALONG LIKE CLOUDS...

  LIKE DOVE'S TO THEIR NEST?

  If you are born from ABOVE...these Holy spirits minister unto

  you[think of Jesus and how angels ministered unto Him and

the Holy spirit coming down in bodily form as a dove]


   Fly along like clouds Mt 26;64...but I say to all of you,in the

future you will see the Son of man sitting  at the right hand of

the Mighty one and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN


  In SOS ..but my dove,my perfect one is unique..the only

daughter of her Mother...Christ bride is Jerusalem Aboves

daughter Psalms 68;11-13 The Lord announced the WORD and

great was the COMPANY of those who proclaimed it;Kings and

armies flee in haste; in the camps men divide the plunder,


  EVEN WHILE YOU SLEEP AMONG THE CAMPFIRES[REV.20;9]

THE WINGS OF MY DOVE ARE SHEATHED WITH SILVER


SOS 6;10 wHO IS SHE THAT LOOKETH FORTH AS THE

MORNING,FAIR AS THE MOON CLEAR AS THE SUN

and terrible as an army with banners.....WHAT WILL YOU SEE

IN THE sHULAMITE? aS IT WERE THE COMPANY OF two armies


  rEV 19;14...AND THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN

FOLLOWED hIM UPON WHITE HORSES[sOS1;9 i LIKEN YOU

MY DARLING,TO A MARE,] rEV 19;11 aND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS

DOTH hE jUdGE AND MAKE WAR.

  wITH THAT UNION AND MARRIAGE..THE FAlSE PROPHET AND

BEAST ARE DESTROYED by their spiritual warfare,this

concurrently with the fall of babylon. tHIS RESULTS IN THE

BINDING OF satan TO KEEP HIM FROM MISLEADING


   rEV 22;16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you

  THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES.

  I AM THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID,

  AND THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR

  Rev 2;26-and he that overcometh and keepeth my works unto

the end,to him I will give power over the nations.And he shall

rule them with a rod of iron....and I WILL GIVE HIM THE

MORNING STAR.

  2Peter 1;19 and we have the word of the prophets MADE MORE

CERTAIN and you will do well to pay attention to it,as to a light

shining in a dark place,until the DAY DAWNS AND A MORNING

STAR ARISES IN YOUR HEARTS.


  SOS 6;10  WHO IS THIS THAT APPEARS LIKE THE DAWN,

  FAIR AS THE MOON,BRIGHT AS THE SUN,

MAJESTIC AS THE STARS IN PROCESSION?


  SOS 6;4 You are beautiful my darling as Tirzah, lovely

as Jerusalem, MAJESTIC AS WITH TROOPS WITH BANNERS

   

   

 :cloud9: Beautiful, Sheila and Amen!

I can only add He showed me the TWO (witness) companies = redeemed souls/females, ie. of a man and his wife (two again) = the woman (two redeemed souls joined in Him as one "flesh") who shall encompass a man (Christ as Spirit man).

They form the robe (garment made of HIS righteousness) of Melchisedek, and is the true meaning of when TWO or more are gathered in My name/nature, there I AM in the midst of THEM.

These are they (the two) who have washed their robes (souls) in the blood of the Lamb. This is the secret of why He sent the disciples out in two's, and why the true church is built upon the apostle and prophet (TWO). They are the level and the plumb line, the Word (in union) with the Spirit = the Son. Blessings....

 Thank you,Card, for adding to that.

   I have been praying for understanding of the 4 living

  creatures, there are 4 'horns' on the altar of God...

   I have a few ideas but nothing concrete...also I beleive it has

to do with th finishing of His creation[creatures]

   Ezekiel spoke of them..Rev declares them

  Has He given you any light on this?

                    Thanks,Sheila

 :cloud9: He gave me on the four horns of the altar, but nothing on the four living creatures. Maybe Nate has something on it? I haven't had time yet to read his stuff on Revelation so I don't know.

The four horns: what He gave me pertains to the 4 rivers (flow) in Genesis. Horns speak of power, the "power" of the living soul, which has 4 parts, ie. mind, will, emotions and desires.

These 4 parts of us are tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken on the 4 horns of the altar. These 4 "rivers" are made one again after the complete processing of the Word and the Spirit in us, ie. ONE IN CHRIST. This is how the redeemed from every tribe, tongue, ect. ends up UNDER the altar, after being tied down and made a living sacrifice, a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord.

His "horn" is His Spirit, thus a double-minded man (both carnal mind and mind of Christ) is yet unstable in all of his ways. That's all I got on this; hope it helps. Blessings...

From what I've gathered, the four living creatures are connected to the cherubim and seraphim, they are spiritual order of the living beings.  Cherubim had the four faces . . .an ox that speaks to me of the most powerful beast pertaining to field labor/domestication  the Lion speaks of the most powerful of the wild kingdom, the eagle is the most predominant of the fowl of the air and the face of man . .face = identity . . man being the highest of all created beasts. 

This for me is a picture of covenantal beasts . . .the seraphim, cherubim and living creatures are all representative of other creatures.  What comes out of them, comes out of what they represent, and what goes in to them, goes into what they represent.  The living creatures seem to lead the rest of creation into the worship of the Lamb.  As they go, so goes the creation they represent.

Not sure if that helps much.

Why should we of the nations reign with Christ on the earth during the 1000 year reign when "our realm is inherrent in the heavens"

Phi 3:20 "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,"

And we will have celestial bodies, not bodies fitted to remain on the earth.

We will actually be closer to Christ in spirit than the 12 will be in flesh on the earth.

Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2009, 11:29:35 PM
Why should we of the nations reign with Christ on the earth during the 1000 year reign when "our realm is inherrent in the heavens"

Phi 3:20 "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,"

And we will have celestial bodies, not bodies fitted to remain on the earth.

We will actually be closer to Christ in spirit than the 12 will be in flesh on the earth.

For me bro, the earth is going to experience the same transformation when all is said and done . . .it's still going to be earth . . .but it's going to be a "new" earth in the fact that once the finality of all things comes to rest, ALL order is going to be restored as it was before the fall took place . . .the garden of Eden was not a natural place, but a spiritual one . . .when Adam chose knowledge over life, he was removed from the realm of the spirit, that's when he died, he was separated from the domain of God and the natural earth became dominant over the spiritual garden . . .  Even the earth groans for the order to be reestablished in all things.

willieH: Hi...  :laughing7: (at my mostly inadaquate, self)

EXPLANATION of the "1000 YEARS" mentioned in REVELATION 20

Here's hoping I can communicate what I see (such is hard to put into words)...  :pointlaugh:  I rest assured, that GOD shall give eyes and ears to those appointed this vision...   :cloud9:

There is a lot of detail, so skip to the "SUMMARY" at the end, if it is too much forya!



CHRONOLOGY indicates at the very least, a beginning... from which subsequent things follow, "chronologically"...

There is NO "CHRONOLOGY" in the REVEALING of CHRIST... For He is an ETERNAL entity... so any REVELATION of Him, does not involve attachment TO HIM ...of "CHRONOLOGY"...

Also, we must USE Scripture to indentify the elements within this SYMBOLIC writing...  With those things in mind... here goes! ------->

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from Heaven [CHRIST] having the KEY of the bottomless pit [hole in ground=grave] and a great CHAIN in His Hand...

This verse is partially explained in:

Rev 1:18 = KEYS -- to Hell [grave] and Death are held by CHRIST...
John 3:13 = CHRIST -- CAME DOWN, from Heaven...



Rev 20:2  And He laid hold of that old Serpent which IS the Devil and satan, and bound him a THOUSAND YEARS

This verse is partially explained in:

Gen 3:1 = SERPENT -- Adversity to the COMMAND of GOD... subtlely seducing men... by means of the "will" of the FLESH...
Heb 4:15 = CHRIST -- "LAID HOLD" of the FLESH which adversely tempted Him ...(AS it does with us) -- James 1:14 -- but -- OVERCOMING it and SINNING NOT.



Rev 20:3  and cast him into the bottomless pit [in CHRIST is found NO SIN - ever!] and shut him up and set a seal upon him that he should DECIEVE the nations no more [that are IN CHRIST] till the 1000 years be fulfilled [ALL the CHOSEN are entered IN CHRIST] and after that he must be loosed a little season [continuing his deception of the dead OUTSIDE CHRIST]

Remember (if you will), when words such as "before" or "after" are spoken in this REVELATION it is NOT a "CHRONOLOGICAL" position... it means OUTSIDE or peripheral to the perspective of the ETERNAL...

CASTING the "serpent" (adversity) and binding it in those who are IN CHRIST during their lifetimes [1000 years=Day] 

We live our lives in "NOW", which is the "DAY" of GOD, in which ALL GENERATIONS appear -- Gen 2:4

When it comes down to it, ...TIME has beginning and ending points, but... "NOW" never ENDS, nor does it ever BEGIN... this verse is partially explained in:

2 Cor 6:2 --  NOW is the TIME ACCEPTED (1000yrs) NOW is the DAY of SALVATION (DAY of GOD)

John 12:31 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD (all lives are lived NOW - before the eyes of YHVH) -- NOW shall the prince of THIS WORLD be cast out (ADVERSE will of the flesh of men)



Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of JESUS, and for the WORD of GOD and which had NOT WORSHIPPED [submitted to] the BEAST [flesh] neither his image [proposal of sin] neither had recieved his mark upon their foreheads [mind] or in their hands [actions] and they LIVED and REIGNED [over the flesh] ...WITH... CHRIST, ...for a 1000 YEARS [during their lives within the DAY of GOD]

This verse is partially explained in:

2 Peter 3:9  beloved, ...BE NOT IGNORANT of THIS ONE THING [this IS the pivotal verse which explains the whole thing - which is why Peter so insists here] that ONE DAY is ....WITH... the Lord ...AS... a THOUSAND YEARS, and a THOUSAND YEARS, ...AS... a DAY

Rom 12:1-2 -- Those who submit to CHRIST are entered into Him and are ...WITH Him... they, as was the Savior, are LIVING SACRFICES, not "worshipping" the beast (flesh) or submitting to his image (temptation), rather... are BEHEADED (self "will" removed and replaced with the MIND of CHRIST -- the WORD)

CHRIST and their submitted hearts RULING over the FLESH of SIN... WITH Him = 1000 years which IS AS a DAY...



Rev 20:5  But the REST of the DEAD [which implies that those in the previous verses were DEAD also] ...LIVED... not AGAIN...  [which implies that all spiritually were once alive] until the 1000 YEARS were FINISHED  [in each of the CHOSEN, fulfilled in each one by one]. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION...

This verse is partially explained in:

Matt 8:22  CHRIST noted LIVING men as DEAD... and conversion of a SINNER to be in the FIRST resurrection, implies that those in the "first resurrection" were also at one time DEAD while "alive"... i.e -- the "rest" of the Dead

Matt 22:14  This is the ELECT... ordained and CHOSEN by GOD to be LIGHT amongst the Darkness... 1st to be "resurrected" and to become "alive" IN CHRIST... during the "1000 years" which is the DAY of GOD...

NONE of those outside CHRIST will LIVE AGAIN in this way (in CHRIST), until ALL of the CHOSEN to be IN CHRIST, FIRST, ...have experienced the FIRST resurrection... (the REVEALING of the LIFE of CHRIST within)...

:heat: ...WHEW!  :pointlaugh:




SUMMARY:

FIRST -- 1000 years in Revelation 20 is symbolic -- QUESTION: so is it a "1000 YEAR period" which is LINEAR or LITERAL... as in -- 1000 years of TIME according to sunrise/sunset?  ANSWER:  NO!  It is the LIFE that YOU LIVE in the FLESH, in the DAY of GOD.

SECOND -- QUESTION: Is this a period? ANSWER:  YES! ...the period in which you LIVE... (a DAY WITH GOD [the WORD],  is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years as a -- DAY)...  The "1000 years" is ruling and REIGNING (overcoming) ...WITH... CHRIST... (over the flesh - which is exactly what HE DID, while "in" the flesh)

THIRD -- QUESTION:  What "day" is spoken of?  ANSWER:  The DAY of GOD, in which ALL GENERATIONS are found -- Gen 2:4

FOURTH -- QUESTION:  Who would CHRIST and YOU (with Him) be "ruling and reigning" over?  ANSWER: the FLESH you are living in... defeating WITH HIM, the EVIL that the FLESH desires to indulge itself in.

Let him that hath ears hear...

 :cloud9: This is what He has shown me too Willie (you explain it very well, that which is nearly unexplainable without breaking out into tongues  :winkgrin:), pertaining to the day of the Lord, which IS CHRIST, which we are to enter into. Blessings....

Willie, once again you have GREATLY blessed me in your words . . .keep pouring this stuff out man, this was SOOOOO Good!!!!!

   Right on Willie ,
  born of God , now there is LIFE in them Words .... :thumbsup:  one is never  so empty when FULL of self

  no more empty
  but carry with the heart[vessel]   the true treasure of Life in Christ... :HeartThrob:

Phl 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 


1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 

Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
Believers today are called to be a part of the Body of Christ. This group of believers is different from the group called, TheBride of Christ.
If you mix the earthly promises of Israel(the Bride), with the heavenly calling out of the Body, you will be for ever "spiritualizing" very literal promises for Israel, and you'll end up very confused. Paul called it mixing law with grace.
In Galatians, Paul exhorts those believers not to go back to "the weak and beggarly elements" which put us right back into the bondage of "The Law".
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

:thumbsup:

Are you saying that natural Israel, that group of people that now live on the Mediterranean, are the Bride of Christ?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 03, 2009, 02:38:03 AM
Are you saying that natural Israel, that group of people that now live on the Mediterranean, are the Bride of Christ?

Beloved,
I'm a believer in the "snatching away" of Christ's Body (the Church) out of the coming indignation. (see 1st Thes. 4:14-17). To me, Paul is saying that the believers today will not have to go through the tribulation. We will be appearing with Christ as His Body in the heavenlies.
When Christ re-appears on earth, (at least 7 years after we're snatched away), He will call up and ressurrect the Twelve Disciples and the faithful of that dispensation.(Peter's converts) They, along with those who believe in that day, will rule and reign with Christ, HERE ON EARTH. All nations will have to go thru Israel to be blessed during that time.  (often called the Millineum, or the Day of Christ)God will write His law in thier hearts and they will do His law perfectly.(they'll be "Born Again")
After the "Millinium", the earth and the heavens will be destroyed by fire, and there will be a new heavens and a new earth.( God's Day)
At the end of God's Day, all authority and power will be subjected to Christ, the last enemy destroyed, death. Then Christ Himself will subject Himself to God. Then God will be all in all. (that's when everyone will "be saved"!!)
I'll look up all the Scriptures I just referenced and post them in a little bit.

Lee

Ismann, that was a yes or no question.

Although I posted this an another thread; I am compelled to post it here as well.

We need to read the scriptures with the Author.
Otherwise, it is a dead letter that Adam will interpret with his mind.
Alone, it is a wonderful book, but confounds the mind of man.
Read with the breath of God, it brings wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 03, 2009, 03:13:55 AM
Ismann, that was a yes or no question.

In that case, NO.

Lee
(my kids accuse me of using that option too often)

My last post was not pertainent to this discussion. Sorry.
Lee

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
Believers today are called to be a part of the Body of Christ. This group of believers is different from the group called, TheBride of Christ.
If you mix the earthly promises of Israel(the Bride), with the heavenly calling out of the Body, you will be for ever "spiritualizing" very literal promises for Israel, and you'll end up very confused. Paul called it mixing law with grace.
In Galatians, Paul exhorts those believers not to go back to "the weak and beggarly elements" which put us right back into the bondage of "The Law".
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

I am one who looks for the spiritual truth in every literal passage of Scripture.  And from "this" perspective, I find your explanations here very confusing.  First, I don't see at all that seeing things spiritually is mixing law with grace . . .I actually see it just the opposite.  Seeing the spiritual intent is actually "free from" the laws of my mind, my natural reasoning.  And it leads me "out" of the confusion taught by tradtions, not into confusion.  Even your rendition of the idea that today's believers are not the bride of Christ . . .what????

If I believe in Christ . . .how can I 'not' become a bride "of" Christ?  There is only one power that can be at work in us . .either it's "me" or it's Christ "in" me.  When I accept Christ, when I acknowledge he is my Messiah, when I pursue him, he then enters, he becomes active "in" me transforming my desires to be his desires and gives me the strength to manifest his desires in my life . . .how is that "not" becoming the bride of Christ?

then you say later on that you are a beleiver of the rapturing of the church . .as am I, but I sense our perspectives on what realm that rapture is taking place may be where the differences are.  I believe my rapture takes place when the Father begins revealing the nature of Christ to me, through me, and in me . . .it takes one's breath away . . .it "harpoozo (s)" me.  It catches me up, snatches me away . . .but in the flesh, my body still remains here, but as other places in Scriptures also state, those breath-taking experiences do manifest in my flesh by "quickening" me, it gets me excited to see.

so for me, it again is just the opposite, rather than mixing spirit and flesh, I'm retaining the spiritual truth.  It is those who believe this rapture is going to be a natural disappearance of millions of people, it is those that are taking a spiritual truth and mixing it with natural understanding.  It also says in Scripture that women are to remain silent in the church and let the men receive and take the message home and explain it to their wives . . . yet even the traditional church, aside from a few  religious far right-wing exceptions, even the church will tell you that this is not meant FOR US to take literally .  . but then they leave it there . . .it's like . . ."just throw that part out because it doesn't apply to us now . . ."

But unfortunately, they are missing the point . . .it DOES apply to us now  . . . but it just doesn't apply to us physcially, or literally . . it applies to me spiritually.  My woman in me, which is your soul, or your mind . . ."that's" what's to be silent so my spirit, my man, can receive truth.  This is the part the church fails to explain.  But my point also is, if "this" isn't to be taken literally, but spiritually, then why not the entire Bible the same way?

Romans 1:20 . . God actually uses the natural to reveal spiritual . . .he doesn't "mix" them in, he uses one to unlock the depths of the other.

This coming Sunday, I get to lead the church where I am into a new perspective about an old story . . .Sampson . . .it's all about spiritual revelation.  The guy is known for strength . .but where does it come from?  His hair.  Why?  What's the message there?  In using natural revealing spiritual principles, what is it that your hair is covering?  Even in Revelation, John went into great detail when explaining Jesus in the candlestick . . his hair was pure white.  Hair is what covers your head . . .John the Baptist lost his . .so did Goliath . . . it's about losing your mind and putting on the mind of Christ . . ."He" is the head, we are the body.

The story of Sampson is a lesson on how powerful the mind is and once Samson revealed the key . . .which is a picture of us giving our intimacy over to the woman in us rather than to the Spirit, we become as Israel was . . .a whoring mind.  As a result, Samson had his eyes gouged out . . .we become blind to spiritual truths around us.  And he was forced to live in hard labor for the rest of his life . . .until the hair grew back.  This devastating thing that happened to him was what actually realigned him.  In the end, the power came back and he took down the foundation pillars of the city . . .he took back the authority he'd lost. 

Remember what got him into trouble with Delilah's friends and relatives?  It was a riddle he made up.  It was a mind game that started the whole thing collapsing in on him. 

Spiritual mixing with natural?  No, that only creates giants . .perversions of created beings.  Using natural to reveal spiritual?  "That" is what sharing the kingdom with others is all about.

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan.......Of course He uses natural to reveal Spiritual; it's His "wife", His witness, the darkened glass (mirror/soul) we look at trying to get a glimpse of Him.

And as the light gets brighter and brighter, we see Him more clearly, as He is NOW, ie. NOW we'll no longer know Him after (or in the manner of) the flesh/natural, but we'll know Him after the Spirit.

"Now" there was not just a description of a point in the framework of time, but rather a description of the nature of Him who is ever changing, yet ever remaining the same, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. How is this possible?

Because what He reveals of Himself and His nature to you in that split second, in the twinkling (Greek word atomos, ie. our atom) of an eye, in essence, just translated you out the kingdom of darkness (your carnal mind's understanding) and into the kingdom of light (mind of Christ).

This is knowing Him as He is NOW, as He appears to you at that second in revealed knowledge, ie. when the times of refreshing come. It's not what you perceived about Him yesterday (although that was your NOW for then and therefore just as valid), and it's not what you may be allowed to perceive about Him tomorrow (and that will be your NOW for then).

This is why He said to thank Him for what we have TODAY and let tomorrow take care of itself. Because yesterday is now the "night" of the past, and though He was in it then, the light of His glory has moved, but He's the light in the "provisions" for tomorrow, also.

He didn't change; our perception of Him did. Blessings....

Quote from: Nathan on June 03, 2009, 07:38:37 PM

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
Believers today are called to be a part of the Body of Christ. This group of believers is different from the group called, TheBride of Christ.
If you mix the earthly promises of Israel(the Bride), with the heavenly calling out of the Body, you will be for ever "spiritualizing" very literal promises for Israel, and you'll end up very confused. Paul called it mixing law with grace.
In Galatians, Paul exhorts those believers not to go back to "the weak and beggarly elements" which put us right back into the bondage of "The Law".
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

I am one who looks for the spiritual truth in every literal passage of Scripture.  And from "this" perspective, I find your explanations here very confusing.  First, I don't see at all that seeing things spiritually is mixing law with grace . . .I actually see it just the opposite.  Seeing the spiritual intent is actually "free from" the laws of my mind, my natural reasoning.  And it leads me "out" of the confusion taught by tradtions, not into confusion.  Even your rendition of the idea that today's believers are not the bride of Christ . . .what????

If I believe in Christ . . .how can I 'not' become a bride "of" Christ?  There is only one power that can be at work in us . .either it's "me" or it's Christ "in" me.  When I accept Christ, when I acknowledge he is my Messiah, when I pursue him, he then enters, he becomes active "in" me transforming my desires to be his desires and gives me the strength to manifest his desires in my life . . .how is that "not" becoming the bride of Christ?

then you say later on that you are a beleiver of the rapturing of the church . .as am I, but I sense our perspectives on what realm that rapture is taking place may be where the differences are.  I believe my rapture takes place when the Father begins revealing the nature of Christ to me, through me, and in me . . .it takes one's breath away . . .it "harpoozo (s)" me.  It catches me up, snatches me away . . .but in the flesh, my body still remains here, but as other places in Scriptures also state, those breath-taking experiences do manifest in my flesh by "quickening" me, it gets me excited to see.

so for me, it again is just the opposite, rather than mixing spirit and flesh, I'm retaining the spiritual truth.  It is those who believe this rapture is going to be a natural disappearance of millions of people, it is those that are taking a spiritual truth and mixing it with natural understanding.  It also says in Scripture that women are to remain silent in the church and let the men receive and take the message home and explain it to their wives . . . yet even the traditional church, aside from a few  religious far right-wing exceptions, even the church will tell you that this is not meant FOR US to take literally .  . but then they leave it there . . .it's like . . ."just throw that part out because it doesn't apply to us now . . ."

But unfortunately, they are missing the point . . .it DOES apply to us now  . . . but it just doesn't apply to us physcially, or literally . . it applies to me spiritually.  My woman in me, which is your soul, or your mind . . ."that's" what's to be silent so my spirit, my man, can receive truth.  This is the part the church fails to explain.  But my point also is, if "this" isn't to be taken literally, but spiritually, then why not the entire Bible the same way?

Romans 1:20 . . God actually uses the natural to reveal spiritual . . .he doesn't "mix" them in, he uses one to unlock the depths of the other.

This coming Sunday, I get to lead the church where I am into a new perspective about an old story . . .Sampson . . .it's all about spiritual revelation.  The guy is known for strength . .but where does it come from?  His hair.  Why?  What's the message there?  In using natural revealing spiritual principles, what is it that your hair is covering?  Even in Revelation, John went into great detail when explaining Jesus in the candlestick . . his hair was pure white.  Hair is what covers your head . . .John the Baptist lost his . .so did Goliath . . . it's about losing your mind and putting on the mind of Christ . . ."He" is the head, we are the body.

The story of Sampson is a lesson on how powerful the mind is and once Samson revealed the key . . .which is a picture of us giving our intimacy over to the woman in us rather than to the Spirit, we become as Israel was . . .a whoring mind.  As a result, Samson had his eyes gouged out . . .we become blind to spiritual truths around us.  And he was forced to live in hard labor for the rest of his life . . .until the hair grew back.  This devastating thing that happened to him was what actually realigned him.  In the end, the power came back and he took down the foundation pillars of the city . . .he took back the authority he'd lost. 

Remember what got him into trouble with Delilah's friends and relatives?  It was a riddle he made up.  It was a mind game that started the whole thing collapsing in on him. 

Spiritual mixing with natural?  No, that only creates giants . .perversions of created beings.  Using natural to reveal spiritual?  "That" is what sharing the kingdom with others is all about.

Nate,
I appreciate what you're saying here. If you believe there is only one group of people called "The Church",(as I used to) then the things I've stated about the differences between the "bride" and the "body" seem really confusing.
If you look at the Scriptures, especially the Greek, or so called "New Testament", you can see that almost everything in them relates to the covenants made between God and Israel.
Until we get to the Apostle Paul, we as Gentiles can only have a relationship with God thru Israel, as converts to the Jewish faith. It is Paul who introduces us to a "direct" access to God, thru the faith of Christ Jesus.
Paul takes the distinction of our hope even further when he starts telling us about a "heavenly" calling.(see Ephesians)
I believe the promises made to Israel are for Israel, not us.
In the dispensation we are currently in, the Apostle Paul tells us that he is the dispenser of this gospel. He even calls it "his" gospel. I believe there is a reason he makes the distinction. I believe it's because it's a different gospel than was presented to Israel for entry into an earthly kingdom.
Repentence, baptism with water, are required for entry to the earthly kingdom. Not so with the grace God has poured out on us today.
Israel has been promised and will receive an earthly kingdom. We have been granted a heavenly abode, as members of the body of Christ.
Different groups of believers, different callings, different promises. That's why I say the "Bride" is not the "Body".

Lee

Amen Nathan: the Giver
Amen Cardinal: the Hinge

Hebrews 6: 4-9, Amplified Bible

    4For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

    5And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

    6If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

    7For the soil which has drunk the rain that repeatedly falls upon it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose benefit it is cultivated partakes of a blessing from God.

    8But if [that same soil] persistently bears thorns and thistles, it is considered worthless and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.(A)

    9Even though we speak this way, yet in your case, beloved, we are now firmly convinced of better things that are near to salvation and accompany it.

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 04, 2009, 10:10:10 PM

Quote from: Nathan on June 03, 2009, 07:38:37 PM

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
Believers today are called to be a part of the Body of Christ. This group of believers is different from the group called, TheBride of Christ.
If you mix the earthly promises of Israel(the Bride), with the heavenly calling out of the Body, you will be for ever "spiritualizing" very literal promises for Israel, and you'll end up very confused. Paul called it mixing law with grace.
In Galatians, Paul exhorts those believers not to go back to "the weak and beggarly elements" which put us right back into the bondage of "The Law".
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

I am one who looks for the spiritual truth in every literal passage of Scripture.  And from "this" perspective, I find your explanations here very confusing.  First, I don't see at all that seeing things spiritually is mixing law with grace . . .I actually see it just the opposite.  Seeing the spiritual intent is actually "free from" the laws of my mind, my natural reasoning.  And it leads me "out" of the confusion taught by tradtions, not into confusion.  Even your rendition of the idea that today's believers are not the bride of Christ . . .what????

If I believe in Christ . . .how can I 'not' become a bride "of" Christ?  There is only one power that can be at work in us . .either it's "me" or it's Christ "in" me.  When I accept Christ, when I acknowledge he is my Messiah, when I pursue him, he then enters, he becomes active "in" me transforming my desires to be his desires and gives me the strength to manifest his desires in my life . . .how is that "not" becoming the bride of Christ?

then you say later on that you are a beleiver of the rapturing of the church . .as am I, but I sense our perspectives on what realm that rapture is taking place may be where the differences are.  I believe my rapture takes place when the Father begins revealing the nature of Christ to me, through me, and in me . . .it takes one's breath away . . .it "harpoozo (s)" me.  It catches me up, snatches me away . . .but in the flesh, my body still remains here, but as other places in Scriptures also state, those breath-taking experiences do manifest in my flesh by "quickening" me, it gets me excited to see.

so for me, it again is just the opposite, rather than mixing spirit and flesh, I'm retaining the spiritual truth.  It is those who believe this rapture is going to be a natural disappearance of millions of people, it is those that are taking a spiritual truth and mixing it with natural understanding.  It also says in Scripture that women are to remain silent in the church and let the men receive and take the message home and explain it to their wives . . . yet even the traditional church, aside from a few  religious far right-wing exceptions, even the church will tell you that this is not meant FOR US to take literally .  . but then they leave it there . . .it's like . . ."just throw that part out because it doesn't apply to us now . . ."

But unfortunately, they are missing the point . . .it DOES apply to us now  . . . but it just doesn't apply to us physcially, or literally . . it applies to me spiritually.  My woman in me, which is your soul, or your mind . . ."that's" what's to be silent so my spirit, my man, can receive truth.  This is the part the church fails to explain.  But my point also is, if "this" isn't to be taken literally, but spiritually, then why not the entire Bible the same way?

Romans 1:20 . . God actually uses the natural to reveal spiritual . . .he doesn't "mix" them in, he uses one to unlock the depths of the other.

This coming Sunday, I get to lead the church where I am into a new perspective about an old story . . .Sampson . . .it's all about spiritual revelation.  The guy is known for strength . .but where does it come from?  His hair.  Why?  What's the message there?  In using natural revealing spiritual principles, what is it that your hair is covering?  Even in Revelation, John went into great detail when explaining Jesus in the candlestick . . his hair was pure white.  Hair is what covers your head . . .John the Baptist lost his . .so did Goliath . . . it's about losing your mind and putting on the mind of Christ . . ."He" is the head, we are the body.

The story of Sampson is a lesson on how powerful the mind is and once Samson revealed the key . . .which is a picture of us giving our intimacy over to the woman in us rather than to the Spirit, we become as Israel was . . .a whoring mind.  As a result, Samson had his eyes gouged out . . .we become blind to spiritual truths around us.  And he was forced to live in hard labor for the rest of his life . . .until the hair grew back.  This devastating thing that happened to him was what actually realigned him.  In the end, the power came back and he took down the foundation pillars of the city . . .he took back the authority he'd lost. 

Remember what got him into trouble with Delilah's friends and relatives?  It was a riddle he made up.  It was a mind game that started the whole thing collapsing in on him. 

Spiritual mixing with natural?  No, that only creates giants . .perversions of created beings.  Using natural to reveal spiritual?  "That" is what sharing the kingdom with others is all about.

Nate,
I appreciate what you're saying here. If you believe there is only one group of people called "The Church",(as I used to) then the things I've stated about the differences between the "bride" and the "body" seem really confusing.
If you look at the Scriptures, especially the Greek, or so called "New Testament", you can see that almost everything in them relates to the covenants made between God and Israel.
Until we get to the Apostle Paul, we as Gentiles can only have a relationship with God thru Israel, as converts to the Jewish faith. It is Paul who introduces us to a "direct" access to God, thru the faith of Christ Jesus.
Paul takes the distinction of our hope even further when he starts telling us about a "heavenly" calling.(see Ephesians)
I believe the promises made to Israel are for Israel, not us.
In the dispensation we are currently in, the Apostle Paul tells us that he is the dispenser of this gospel. He even calls it "his" gospel. I believe there is a reason he makes the distinction. I believe it's because it's a different gospel than was presented to Israel for entry into an earthly kingdom.
Repentence, baptism with water, are required for entry to the earthly kingdom. Not so with the grace God has poured out on us today.
Israel has been promised and will receive an earthly kingdom. We have been granted a heavenly abode, as members of the body of Christ.
Different groups of believers, different callings, different promises. That's why I say the "Bride" is not the "Body".

Lee

For me bro, the things God gives are spiritual, the judgment is spiritual, the things we lay up are spiritual, as are these promises.  I do agree that Paul's gospel was different than say, that of Peter's because Peter went to the Jews, Paul went to the Gentiles . . .in the book of Acts, there was a great disturbance in the church because Jews were trying to bring the Gentiles into Christ through their heritage-laws . . .Paul had to drop everything and report to the other apostles in Jerusalem that one, his gospel was different from theirs and two, it was supposed to be because it was reaching out to nonJewish people.

Having said all of that . . .Scripture also states that in the spirit, there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female.  So, spiritually speaking . . .those things seemingly geared toward Jews are actually toward the body . . .Paul even stated . .again, his ministry being to the Gentiles, that we, as Gentiles (in the flesh) are grafted (in the spirit) into the same heritage as the Jews where we fulfill the prayer of Jesus himself when he prayed that we all become as "one" with the Father even as he is one. 

Quote from: jabcat on June 03, 2009, 02:33:41 AM

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

:thumbsup:

I used to believe that guys but no more. A nice saying but I believe all Scripture is for every person and to every person. If only one human being lived this person would sum up all Scripture and Scripture would sum up the person.

I just can't see that God would write a bit for some people and then a little over here for someone else and so on. No I see all of Scripture, in some way, in my very make-up, my world, my being. I don't understand it all but when I focus on any part of Scripture I see something of me and for me in it as I see it apply to all people.

cp

Nathan,
That brought a tear of joy to my eye.
Continue in the Lord.
Let every moment of your day be praise to His name.
Pray continually.
Ceaselessly.
Your life is worship.
Wake every morning in Zion.

Adding to Nathan's revelation.
For every man:
Genesis starts in your left ear and Revelation ends in your right.
The whole Bible will unfold in your own life.
It is your life.
Find your place.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 03, 2009, 03:41:11 AM
Although I posted this an another thread; I am compelled to post it here as well.

We need to read the scriptures with the Author.
Otherwise, it is a dead letter that Adam will interpret with his mind.
Alone, it is a wonderful book, but confounds the mind of man.
Read with the breath of God, it brings wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

BS (Man I hate using your initials!!!  :laughing7:)................Beserv,

Great stuff and Nathan, wow Brother!

Each person is the world that God so loves that He gives His Son to. I see something of myself in all people and something of all people in myself. God made MAN in His image. He had some books written about what He did and is doing. This book is Scripture, the Bible. It is a spiritual book because the Author is a spirit, His very own beloved Son is His word which is spirit and life. Anyone reading His book must read it in the language of spirit and truth.

Man, this is so clear to me.

cp

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2009, 01:51:49 AM
Adding to Nathan's revelation.
For every man:
Genesis starts in your left ear and Revelation ends in your right.
The whole Bible will unfold in your own life.
It is your life.
Find your place.

Beserv, slow down will ya? Just kidding. Keep firing away!!!

You have a way of putting great stuff in small packages (Not that large packages are bad, No way!)

cp

CP...

For you...www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43XXpItGk0

For Claypot, it goes both ways.
He loves us as much as we love Him.
He sings this song (in part for the dim) to you and me, as well.

 :cloud9: Amen bros......these things were written for our example, and if our example then that means to apply them to OUR FLESH, discerning the Spirit in these things are as the distilling of wine, the lees (sediment or elementary principles) fall to the bottom.

We start out being ruled, body, soul, and spirit, we end up being ruled, spirit, soul, and body. Blessings...

Quote from: claypot on June 05, 2009, 01:43:06 AM

Quote from: jabcat on June 03, 2009, 02:33:41 AM

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 01:41:09 AM
Never rob Peter to pay Paul.
All Scripture is written FOR us. Not all Scripture is written TO us.

Lee

:thumbsup:

I used to believe that guys but no more. A nice saying...

I just can't see that God would write a bit for some people and then a little over here for someone else and so on. No I see all of Scripture, in some way, in my very make-up, my world, my being. I don't understand it all but when I focus on any part of Scripture I see something of me and for me in it as I see it apply to all people.
cp

Shucks bro, I believe it's more than a nice saying.  IMO, it (along with accurate context, Spirit revelation, etc. ) is part of properly dividing the Word of truth.  (I think not taking it into account can create confusion, and man, we don't need any more denominations  :laughing7:. )  I've probably seen too much scriptural abuse in my life...probably most haven't grown up in the types of "churches" I grew up in.    So anyway, I see it as all for, definitely.  All primarily to, I just personally don't think so. 

Is this primarily to you, or me?    Yesu dispatched these twelve, and charged them, saying, "You must not go ahead into a road of the pagans, and must not enter into a city of the Samaritans".  Matthew 10:12.  There are hundreds/thousands of similar scriptures...

Can we learn something, the Spirit speak to us through it, and us benefit from it?  I think so.  But should we live our lives never walking down a road of the pagans  or entering into a Samaritan city?  :thinking:  Though I believe I can garner a spiritual message from it, the scripture plainly says "Yesu... charged them [the twelve]..."

What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

Quote from: Zero7 on June 05, 2009, 05:30:29 AM
What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

I'm glad you're blessed.  I'll share my sock puppets with you  :laughing7:, I've wondered the same thing.  Howevah...expect several different answers...some see it literal, some spiritual, some a mixture of both.  Maybe someone's explanation will be Spirit-verified to you and you'll know it as truth.  I'll watch...maybe I'll get it this time too  :winkgrin:.

I'll throw a rock on the pond and see where the ripples lead . . .
I've taught on the book of Revelation from traditional and nontraditional perspectives . . I've chosen the "non". 

Traditionally, it is believed that there is a literal 1000 year period of time when believers will experience physical, emotional, and spiritual bliss . . .only to have the devil, who's been bound during that time, to be released again . . for a short time . . .God catches him . . .let's him go . .then catches him again because during that 1000 years, babies were born and even though there's no temptation, they need to be tested . . so . . Devil is released to prove their worth I guess . . .I'm not nearly as concerned about these particular details anymore because I beleive flesh profiteth nothing . . . to try to apply these things physically, just has no benefits for me.

Now . . .the spiritual (inward) approach, for me, is simply sharing not what I've learned, but what I see . . .it's impossible to teach revelation . . .revelation can be seen, but because it's "revealed" ony by the Father to our heart . .our spirit . .. our minds can only observe what is being revealed to our spirits.  What I "do" teach is patterns and keys that lead us into the spiritual principles . . .but you really can't teach something that only can come by way of experience. 

I can tell you "about" flying . . .I can tell you all of the technical aspects of flying (truthfully, I can't . . I know nothing about airplanes . . but for the sake of the point, pretend I can . . .)  I can tell you the purpose for each guage, lever and alarm in a cockpit . . .but until you "feel" it for yourself, until you "experience" flying, all these things I'm telling you are mere words.

It's the same with revelation . .not the book, but the act.  Hebrews states that in the last days, there will no longer be a need for teaching because the Holy Spirit will be the only one doing that "in" us.  Now, there are rogue warriors that carry that verse out of context and say they don't need to listen to another person, they can rely on the Spirit only.  Unfortunately it's those same individuals that become extremists in their quest for perfection.

So . .  having said all of that . . for me, the 1000 years is not a time, but a person.  It's connected to the Holy of Holies because it's dimensions are 10x10x10 . . .it's a realm of rest . . Jesus is the Sabbath . . we enter into the Sabbath . .again, it's not a measure of time . . .how often have you heard people say God doesn't live by our time?  But yet we try to then take his timeless light and make it fit our limited frame of time . . .all we've done is create division and confusion because it's as you say . . . .no one can explain how or why it is that the devil can be released "after" God has bound him up so we can party for 1000 years without temptation of any sort . . .

God doesn't live by our time, as far as I'm concerned, he measures by his Son.  Genesis 6 just before the flood . ..God said no longer is he going to "strive" (key word there) with "man" (and another) but that his days shall be 120 years.  Now you'd think following that proclamation that the documented lineages in Scripture would reflect this by showing men lived to be 120 years . . .but the only ONE that did that was Moses . . .and he represents law . . .so if it wasn't literal . . .it then must have been "spiritual".

Carnal man . . .the number is 6.  That's the number of man . . .666 is the number of carnal man in it's entirety . . completeness, the whole enchalada.  Jesus not only is the Sabbath . . .which is the 7th day . . .he is the Jubuliee . . .that is what comes after seven sevens of Sabbath years.  In other words . . .after 49 years, the 50th year is the year of Jubilee.  Got that so far?  Every 50 years is the year of Jubilee . . .Jesus "is" the Jubilee.

When God said he'll no longer strive with man . .it's not men . .it's the man in men . .it's carnality.  A works-based mind . . a mind of labor . . a mind of war .  .ministry works are still works.  This isn't to say it's not necessary, but it's saying there's a whole other realm beyond that . .it's not the end.  I remember being in tradtional church and there'd be people crying for more, for deeper things . .the churches answer is . . . put them in a ministry.  Rather than feed them the deep things, they put them in ministry, taking care of other adolescent Christians . . .and call that the deeper things.

At any rate . . God measures in dimensions of his Son . . .Jubilee is every 50 years.  God will no longer strive with man, but his days shall be 120 years . . .120 x 50 = 6000.  The reason why God won't strive with man anymore is because after 6,000 years, after 6 days, the seventh arives . . .the Sabbath day . . the day of rest.

What does this have to do with the devil being released for a short time?  Again . . .it's all spiritual . .the devil . .isn't the devil . .read specifically what it says . . it's more than just this one spiritual entity . . .

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

This goes all the way back to the garden . .the serpent which matured into the dragon which is both a traducer and an adversary . . .Scripture says your mind is at emnity with God . . .my mind is an adversary . . .it traduces truth . .it forces it through a filtering system of logic and reasoning . .and the results are adverse against the truth of God in me.

But we are enabled now to enter into that Sabbath NOW . . .that's the 1000 year reign . .and because we still have minds . . .we still have sin nature, we still have carnality in us . . .we go through "seasons" where we loose that nature . . .can you say since you've met Christ that you've never ever, ever again given in to your flesh on occasion?

Read through this guys . . . when you come into the completion of rest . . .when you enter into this kingdom of revelational truth, there is still a carnal nature at work in you . . but the difference now is, it has absolutely no power over you . . the only time it can manifest is when YOU release it . . .it comes in seasons . . .sometimes you turn away from it, sometimes you turn "to" it . . .and in the end, it's cast into the lake of fire . . .this is all pertaining to the CARNAL MIND of man. 

Man . . .my break is over . . .

But I hope this helped at least a little bit.

 :cloud9: Just time for a quick AMEN, Nathan...... :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Nathan, yes , it helps a lot. Thanks for taking the time to write that. Now I'll get my daughter to come in here and read it to me a second time. She does wonders with those sock puppets explaining the hard stuff.  :laughing7:

And why I see it much as you do Nathan is that I just can't believe this whole plan is a 'us and them' plan or a 'God and us' plan. The Plan is, period.

Also I see the Word as a living thing. It is alive and multifaceted. It is not a bunch of words on a page describing past and future events. It is a living entity that describes what life IS.

God is spirit, He created the physical, but He IS spirit. His home is spirit, His language is spirit.

Nathan, you have blown my mind with the 1000 years being The Divine Himself. I see it. I do. I have some serious dwelling to do and I'm excited as a, as a, as a...................no words can explain how excited I am to go do the dwelling! Thanks Brother.

cp

Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

Usually I try not to respond too much to replies like these because as much as I do love knowing it lit someone up, I don't want to begin thinking "I'm" the one that did anything to make me worthy of the praise of others . . .all I'm doing is I'm sharing what I see . . .and thank you for the kind words . . but more importantly, I'm just as excited to see that it's spreading!!

The real reason why I'm responding here is because your replies are EXACTLY why I beleive the spiritual should be the pursuit of all . . . look at what the spiritual truth does to you, compared with just giving you either popular explanations, traditional beleifs, or just historical knowledge . . . it's only when revelation of what's said catches "in" you that really and truly causes you to benefit the most in your relationship with the Father.

I'll post this, but I'll also respond to Legoman's post afterward . . .

That's what I hunger for the most, not the definitions, the historical value, the moral applications . . not that those are bad, it's just it's only in the spirit that brings maturity, freedom, joy . . .excitement . . .it's a rapturing experience.  Knowledge is amusing, but revelation is transforming.

I like how you put this cp . . God IS spirit . .he created the natural, but he IS spiritual, the invisble, the spiritual IS his home . . . you remind me of what he said to Moses . . "Who should I say sent me?  You tell them I AM sent you"  In the spirit God IS the I AM.  The things he created in this earth are what he uses to reveal this truth . . .the natural things are his alphabet.  The experiences we read about and have for ourselves are his language of love to, for, and through us.  There is no end to these things, once the gates of revelation open up in you . . .the flood begins . . .you fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah and Habbakuk . . .

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Your earth shall be filled with his knowledge . .why?  Because you studied really hard?  Because you taught Scriptures to others?  No, because "this" day we're in is the Sabbath . . .rest brings healing to the body . . .refreshing, rejuvenation . . .in rest, our eyes can see things our mind can see things that we couldn't see before in labor because truth doesn't come through labor, it comes through resting in our relationship with the Father.

Quote from: Tony N on May 27, 2009, 11:29:35 PM
Why should we of the nations reign with Christ on the earth during the 1000 year reign when "our realm is inherrent in the heavens"

Phi 3:20 "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,"

And we will have celestial bodies, not bodies fitted to remain on the earth.

We will actually be closer to Christ in spirit than the 12 will be in flesh on the earth.

Ahh-ha! You must have taken Paul's advice to Timothy! :thumbsup:

Quote from: legoman on June 05, 2009, 08:28:12 PM
Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

I have 10 minutes left of the break . . . see what I can throw out there in that time . .
For me the Great WHITE throne . . .in us we all have a throne . . .the church has embedded in us a vision that this great white throne of judgment is again, all about destruction and death . . .it's not . . .if you come to Christ, he takes the judgment you deserved because of the sin in you . . .he takes that upon himself and pays for your salvation with his blood . . .if that's really true, then we do we want to hold ourselves to believe there is yet another judgment coming to us?

2 Thessalonians talks about the abomination of desolation STANDING in the temple . . .that is the carnal throne . . .it's there because people let it be there . . .but the Judgment is WHITE . . .it's to purify the carnalty FROM man . . .I've mentioned this before . . but judgment, if you want to see it as destructive . . .fine, but understand it's not destroying men . . .it's destroying MAN in men.  It's a GOOD thing that's happening in us.

The devil is cast in to the lake of fire as well . . . I beleive those who died in their carnality without letting Christ manifest in them, they do go through a spiritual lake of fire where WHITE judgment is applied to their darkness of hearts . . .when the darkness is removed . . there's no rebellion, no vengence, no bitterness . .there's only joy and humility . .they'll WANT to bend their knee and declare Christ as Lord.  The LOF is not a place of "correction" as much as it is a place of "purification".  The laver washed, it cleansed, the blood stained hands of the priests from their labor of animal/sin sacrifices . .the lake of fire does the same thing  . .both are places of preparation for entering into something deeper . . .

Your mind can't imagine Hitler's transformation because the same verse that says your mind is at emnity . .also says that it doesn't have the capaicity even, to understand the spiritual nature of God.  THATS why it's ALL based on FAITH and not knowledge . . .faith is believing in what you can't see . .when you do . . .you can then see.

ten minutes are up.  . . sigh . . .

I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

willieH: Hi Brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on June 05, 2009, 09:00:40 PM

Quote from: legoman on June 05, 2009, 08:28:12 PM
Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

I have 10 minutes left of the break . . . see what I can throw out there in that time . .
For me the Great WHITE throne . . .in us we all have a throne . . .the church has embedded in us a vision that this great white throne of judgment is again, all about destruction and death . . .it's not . . .if you come to Christ, he takes the judgment you deserved because of the sin in you . . .he takes that upon himself and pays for your salvation with his blood . . .if that's really true, then we do we want to hold ourselves to believe there is yet another judgment coming to us?

2 Thessalonians talks about the abomination of desolation STANDING in the temple . . .that is the carnal throne . . .it's there because people let it be there . . .but the Judgment is WHITE . . .it's to purify the carnalty FROM man . . .I've mentioned this before . . but judgment, if you want to see it as destructive . . .fine, but understand it's not destroying men . . .it's destroying MAN in men.  It's a GOOD thing that's happening in us.

The devil is cast in to the lake of fire as well . . . I beleive those who died in their carnality without letting Christ manifest in them, they do go through a spiritual lake of fire where WHITE judgment is applied to their darkness of hearts . . .when the darkness is removed . . there's no rebellion, no vengence, no bitterness . .there's only joy and humility . .they'll WANT to bend their knee and declare Christ as Lord.  The LOF is not a place of "correction" as much as it is a place of "purification".  The laver washed, it cleansed, the blood stained hands of the priests from their labor of animal/sin sacrifices . .the lake of fire does the same thing  . .both are places of preparation for entering into something deeper . . .

Your mind can't imagine Hitler's transformation because the same verse that says your mind is at emnity . .also says that it doesn't have the capaicity even, to understand the spiritual nature of God.  THATS why it's ALL based on FAITH and not knowledge . . .faith is believing in what you can't see . .when you do . . .you can then see.

ten minutes are up.  . . sigh . . .

Boy brother... you writings herein, are just one completely submitted TOOL in the Hand of the Almighty!   :bgdance:

Thanks for your posts in this thread... so enLIGHTening...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: legoman on June 05, 2009, 09:07:34 PM
I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

All I can tell you is, it's after he died . . .it could be over with by now . . .it could have been over with in seconds according again . . to "our" time . . but remember, when your spirit leaves this body of flesh, it leaves the essence of time as well . . .so, not even my mind can see the whens of the spirit.  It's kind of like Jesus said . . . there are some things that are just not for us to know . . I know that's a cop out . .but truth be told . . . how would knowing the when after death, things happen, benefit my relationship with Christ in the Now?

You may have to reread that sentence a couple times . . . I had to and I'm the one writing it.

For me right now, measuring spiritual time is like measuring the speed of dark . . . I'm sure there's probably a way . . .but then what?

Quote from: Nathan on June 05, 2009, 10:24:26 PM

Quote from: legoman on June 05, 2009, 09:07:34 PM
I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

All I can tell you is, it's after he died . . .it could be over with by now . . .it could have been over with in seconds according again . . to "our" time . . but remember, when your spirit leaves this body of flesh, it leaves the essence of time as well . . .so, not even my mind can see the whens of the spirit.  It's kind of like Jesus said . . . there are some things that are just not for us to know . . I know that's a cop out . .but truth be told . . . how would knowing the when after death, things happen, benefit my relationship with Christ in the Now?

You may have to reread that sentence a couple times . . . I had to and I'm the one writing it.

For me right now, measuring spiritual time is like measuring the speed of dark . . . I'm sure there's probably a way . . .but then what?

Ok I see what you are saying.  I can't follow it though without having the "essence of time" still exist.  For example when we are spiritually resurrected, I think there will still be time (maybe not as we know it now). 

This is why I think this.

We know eventually EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess.  Again I ask: WHEN does this happen, if not after Christ has come, after the resurrection?  There must be an "essence of time" for this to happen in.

I can buy the argument this has already happened for the "elect" - they have already "bowed and confessed" spiritually.  But the non-elect won't do that until they are converted... later (after their death/resurrection) presumably.

This is why I feel there must be some judgment/acknowledgement to come after the end of this age, at the very least so everyone will bow and confess.  Just my current thoughts as it doesn't seem to fit logically otherwise if its all done after this life and no further judgment required.

Maybe Willie can further comment on this. 

Another question: do you think the resurrection has already happened for believers?  ie. they are already "spiritually" resurrected and have a "spiritual" body?  If so, I don't feel like I've been resurrected, and we definitely aren't immortal yet..... are we?

Peace...

I agree with you about Willie . . . I'll leave that one alone and see where the river in him takes us with it.

As to the other .. .yes and no . . .  When Scripture talks about Jesus having to mature, learn, grow . . .that's a very telling thing . .. I think I also mentioned this somewhere on the forum before as well . . .but for me, when there is the birthing of a new believer, when someone asks Christ into their heart . . .there is an IMMEDIATE transformation in them that is quite visible . . .crying, laughing . . .what have you . . but internally, it's really a realignment happening . . .the spirit in us is resurrected from beneath the mind of us, so in that sense, yes there is a resurrection in us spiritually . . .however . . . our mind and flesh are not quite so quick to join in that transformation . . .it took Jesus 30 years of preparation to deliver the gospel to us . . . it takes our minds and bodies much longer to reach any form of resurrectionness . .. .(just made that one up!)

But when ALL things are complete, we will experience this resurrection on every level . .our mind will be wholly transformed . . the switch from a crown of thorns to a crown of gold, the curse of the mind will no longer exist.  Our bodies will be transformed . . .we will leave these earthy tabernacles for spiritual ones, just as Paul says.

Theres one other thing . . .I think we need to also remember that it's not just us that's being transformed into the spirit . . .this earth is going to have the same transformantion . . .it'll still be an earth . .but it'll be in another form . . .I know . .tough to understand . . .but in faith, that's how I understand it to be.

willieH: Hi my dear brothers Legoman & Nathan... :hithere:




Like you my dear brother, I deserve nor seek, "kudos" for anything I say if there is benefit for another... only the Lord is to praised if benefit is given in understanding! 

Praise :bowing: YHVH and His CHRIST

If anything, the imperfection (which is ME) that yet lies within my views is that which I must be "credited" for!  :mblush:

I always seek GOD to use and utilize my offerings... and at the same time, cause the imperfections to be passed-over by observers...





In the INSTANT of the DEATH (of the heart) is the "knee" bowed, and "tongue" confessed... When CHRIST is revealed, the DARKNESS which pridefully stood and selfishly acted right before the EYES of YHVH, shall flee at the BRIGHTNESS of the LIGHT of His COMING...

For some (as I see it), it comes while alive in the FLESH and is active as life in the flesh is lived... but in most (as I see it), it arrives in the instant of DEATH of both the body and the soul...

Quote from: legoman on June 05, 2009, 09:07:34 PM
I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

As I see it, ...here is My  :2c:

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is NOT according to TIME or CHRONOLOGY... JESUS, the Eternal  WORD of GOD, does not require TIME in order to "BE"...

Concerning Hitler... He is part (as are we ALL) of that which was DECLARED... (the "end from the beginning") Isaiah 46:10-13... and the REVELATION of CHRIST, ..."in" Hitler, does not mark TIME, it marks ETERNITY...

So your question as to "when" will Hitler "be" purified, is not according to TIME, it is according to REVELATION of the ETERNAL ...IN him... which does not require "time"...

You and I did not traverse the LIFE of Hitler, ...only Hitler and GOD traversed his lifetime, together...

That DEATH occurs in each of us, marks the END of each journey IN TIME... and within each individual journey does TIME manifest our "individual portions" of the DECLARATION of GOD -- "the end DECLARED, from the beginning"...

Which reveals that within it, we as individuals... each receive from the IMPARTIAL God and Savior... that which was intended for each... and that part of which was/is our participation in the "KNOWLEDGE", the JUDGMENT and Lake of FIRE (suffering, death, grave), as well as the REVELATION of our Savior, and the INDIVIDUAL FACT that He has "taken AWAY" the SIN in each of us...

CHRIST "took away" the sin of the WORLD... The "World" exists in various portions of TIME... and in TIME, is the SIN of each portion of the "WORLD" taken AWAY by CHRIST...

NO man comes to his death, and then reports the doings of GOD in the instant of his/her DEATH... Nor is any able to REPORT of another, the doings of GOD in the instant of the DEATH of another...

The change of MAN from mortal to immortal comes in the TWINKLING of an EYE... or in an INSTANT... the LAST "instant" for each of us...  Marks the "when" that we each find as our LAST... In that LAST moment of TIME in our individual experiences, does our "MORTALITY" ...DIE with us... :shrug:

The JUDGMENT is NOW as CHRIST said it:  John 12:31 -- the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, ...is ...NOW...

NOT after TIME is concluded, ...IN its CONCLUSION...  the LAST DAY for each is a different DAY in TIME.  Each of us experience our LAST DAY... Much as we each experienced our birth on our FIRST DAY...

We are EACH were created on our "FIRST DAY"... and then live our lives BEFORE the JUDGING EYE of YHVH and His WORD, in the "SIX" following (which contain the Creation - sun, moon, animals, food, etc.), and enter into REST (at the DEATH or CONCLUSION of those "six days") on the SEVENTH...  

In that REST at the "TWINKLING of an EYE" (temporal time which was used by God to teach each of His Children the KNOWLEDGE) is found exposed before ETERNITY which is the SABBATH or "PERFECTION - COMPLETION" of each...  

We must (or should) ALWAYS keep in mind, that GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

ADAM, nor NOAH, nor PAUL, nor PETER, nor YOU nor I, ...shall "spend" even ONE MOMENT of TIME in DEATH... only those LIVING shall mark "TIME" concerning us... we SHALL NOT.

We are DISASSOCIATED with TIME in the INSTANT of our DEATH.  Only those LIVING IN TIME (and of course, Almighty GOD), experience TIME and its "doings"... Ecc 3

The DEAD (no longer LIVING in TIME) "know NOT" anything... Ecc 9:5

Awesome Willie!  I will be contemplating this for many days...

Peace.

I think the big problem for people is the punishing of 'bad guys'. I mean should we just do nasty stuff up until we die and then God will fix us? Even to just be lazy and we will be fixed up later?

I am in a hurry here, thus my crude wording here, and will come back to this but I am hoping for some thoughts from all about this.

In other words what kind of pain and misery and outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth are experienced by people who do not 'know' the Lord. I understand the pain and misery here and now but what about those who depart this life on a wave of doing evil? Do they get away with their evil ways and if not, how are they dealt with?

I do have some thoughts on this and I know no one 'gets away' with anything but if you all could give some more detailed thoughts I would appreciate it.

Again, I think this is the big hang up for most people. They want to know others will be punished for not accepting Jesus in this life. If not eternal torment then what?

cp

Since entering into the kingdom perspectives, seeing the truth being far removed from the teachings of men, it's caused me to find a different way to study Scripture.  Instead of taking what I read and forming a belief from the word I've read . . .I now take what I "see" and then "from" there, I reread the Scriptures that appear to say things differently and what I've learned by doing this is . . . the truth is very much in the Word . . it's just not always in the translations.

Jesus really messed people up when he said "it is written, that you must do this . . . but I say . . . ."  When you read passages like an eye for an eye . . ."it is written that you have the right to remove the eye of another who caused you to lose your eye . . .be it by accident or not . . .BUT I SAY turn the other cheek . . . ." 

My point is, the message Jesus brought was the opposite of what they were taught.  And it's much the same way here . . many things we really have given the benefit of the doubt that it's saying what we're taught it was saying . . but then the Father begins revealing the nature of his Son in us and we're beginning to see that the things we were taught and swallowed, were not things God originally established.  So, I "know" hell isn't what I thought, so if that is true, then what really is this "passage" saying?  Start with what I know by experience, Jesus wasn't warning unbelievers about hell . . . "if" that's true, then what do passages referring to that place of gnashing of teeth really mean then?

All of that was said to say this . . .the "gnashing of teeth" place . . .it's not the hell we're taught that it is.  Jesus isn't out there teaching a message of doom and gloom . . he never did, never will.  He wasn't warning the unbeleivers of their eternal damnation.  The gnashing of teeth isn't aimed at unbelievers, it's aimed at the religious.  And it's not about going to hell . . .

Matthew 13 . . parable after parable . . .
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  

We're still stuck in this mindset that men are being cast into the lake of fire . . .it's not men . . .it's "man" in men . . . everything is spiritual . . take it inward . . .don't try applying spiritual truth to masses of people.  Spiritual truth is inward truth . . it only applies to the individual, not to the general public.  That's a key to Scripture the church can't seem to embrace.  We want to conform everybody to think the same, act the same, live the same . . .but that's not how we were created, we're not meant to be cookie-cutter Christians . . .or denominationally branded.  We are individuals, our relationship is "personal".  So should be the application of Scripture . . .

The gnashing of teeth is for me, a mind set . . .when truth comes, it comes without logic.  It can't be explained.  But the mind is wired to respond after reasoning is applied.  When there is no reasoning, the mind becomes distraught . .  . people can't stand the thought of chaos.  They can't stand the idea of being out of control . .but that's just what a humble heart does, it gives control over to the spirit and in the spirit, you become like the wind, there's no logic or reason, you can't predict from where it comes, to where it goes.  And best of all, if you can't tell when it's coming or when it's going, you can't contain it, control it, govern it . .the best you can do is set your sails according to it . . which the wind changes . . you can't change it back, all you can do is readjust your sails according to it.

I got ahead of myself there . .because those that reject the freedom of the spirit, are the ones that have the greatest reaction against others that do.  It creates a "gnashing" . .the gnashing of teeth is simply an outward manifestation of an inward clash.  It's not a place, it's a state of mind . . . Scripture must interpret Scripture . . .

Psalm 35:16
With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

Acts 7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

This incident in Acts . . .it was the state of mind these people were in just before they stoned Stephen.  The place of gnashing of teeth is not hell . . .it's merely a state of one's mind that rejects the kingdom . . .the kingdom is not heaven, it's not a place either . .but like gnashing of teeth, it also is a state of mind.  The things I've been sharing here are coming from a transformed mind . . . I can't explain all I see . . .I can't understand all I see.  But I've learned to not let my mind do the reasoning anymore.  I no longer care if things make sense or not . . .because I know that God speaks through seeds . . .initially it looks like nothing, but leave it in me for a while and eventually, the nothing grows into something . . and the transformation continues.

I know that's not answering the issue directly . . . but I think if we're going to go into the kingdom, we should address the traditional assumptions as they surface . . .release them to the Father as we go . . .that's the only reason why differences pop up . . so they can be released to the Father. 

Now, more on topic . . . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

Quote from: Zero7 on June 05, 2009, 05:30:29 AM
What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

Hello Zero7........... pleased to make your acquaintance

When the Holy Spirit comes into a heart that was prepared as "good ground" Satan was bound "that day" that is a term that also appears as "one thousand years"

However in time we sin and that allowed Satan to be set free.

Now he roams in the dry places that is the dust and bottomless pitt that our flesh is made of where he is always seeking to return to the heart to gain control of the individual........ we see this in Revelations through constant battles between the north and the south that are mere battles between the mind, heart and flesh. Sometimes there are alliances made as Satan did through Eve through daughters becoming married to princes such as when the sons of God married the daughters of men way back in Genesis and so forth as seen throughout the OT but the ultimate desire of Satan is to return sit on the temple within us.

When we see this happening through are conscious being sprinkled with His Blood that convicts us of sin we then approach God the Father through the Blood of the Son that will both wash our sins away making the heart a suitable place for the Holy Spirit to abide in and through this same Blood is the Life/Spirit of Jesus that will destroy the presence of Satan in our minds because light displaces darkness.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Sometimes it takes awhile for us to view the words of the Bible as more than just a corporate scene involving the earth and the universe to looking with in ourselves to where the Kingdom of Heaven really is and where the battles of the heavens are fought.

Blessings

Doug

mygrandmotherplaysdominoesbetterthanyourgrandmotherdoes :dontknow:

Quote from: Nathan on June 06, 2009, 05:52:06 PM
Since entering into the kingdom perspectives, seeing the truth being far removed from the teachings of men, it's caused me to find a different way to study Scripture.  Instead of taking what I read and forming a belief from the word I've read . . .I now take what I "see" and then "from" there, I reread the Scriptures that appear to say things differently and what I've learned by doing this is . . . the truth is very much in the Word . . it's just not always in the translations.

Jesus really messed people up when he said "it is written, that you must do this . . . but I say . . . ."  When you read passages like an eye for an eye . . ."it is written that you have the right to remove the eye of another who caused you to lose your eye . . .be it by accident or not . . .BUT I SAY turn the other cheek . . . ." 

My point is, the message Jesus brought was the opposite of what they were taught.  And it's much the same way here . . many things we really have given the benefit of the doubt that it's saying what we're taught it was saying . . but then the Father begins revealing the nature of his Son in us and we're beginning to see that the things we were taught and swallowed, were not things God originally established.  So, I "know" hell isn't what I thought, so if that is true, then what really is this "passage" saying?  Start with what I know by experience, Jesus wasn't warning unbelievers about hell . . . "if" that's true, then what do passages referring to that place of gnashing of teeth really mean then?

All of that was said to say this . . .the "gnashing of teeth" place . . .it's not the hell we're taught that it is.  Jesus isn't out there teaching a message of doom and gloom . . he never did, never will.  He wasn't warning the unbeleivers of their eternal damnation.  The gnashing of teeth isn't aimed at unbelievers, it's aimed at the religious.  And it's not about going to hell . . .

Matthew 13 . . parable after parable . . .
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.  

We're still stuck in this mindset that men are being cast into the lake of fire . . .it's not men . . .it's "man" in men . . . everything is spiritual . . take it inward . . .don't try applying spiritual truth to masses of people.  Spiritual truth is inward truth . . it only applies to the individual, not to the general public.  That's a key to Scripture the church can't seem to embrace.  We want to conform everybody to think the same, act the same, live the same . . .but that's not how we were created, we're not meant to be cookie-cutter Christians . . .or denominationally branded.  We are individuals, our relationship is "personal".  So should be the application of Scripture . . .

The gnashing of teeth is for me, a mind set . . .when truth comes, it comes without logic.  It can't be explained.  But the mind is wired to respond after reasoning is applied.  When there is no reasoning, the mind becomes distraught . .  . people can't stand the thought of chaos.  They can't stand the idea of being out of control . .but that's just what a humble heart does, it gives control over to the spirit and in the spirit, you become like the wind, there's no logic or reason, you can't predict from where it comes, to where it goes.  And best of all, if you can't tell when it's coming or when it's going, you can't contain it, control it, govern it . .the best you can do is set your sails according to it . . which the wind changes . . you can't change it back, all you can do is readjust your sails according to it.

I got ahead of myself there . .because those that reject the freedom of the spirit, are the ones that have the greatest reaction against others that do.  It creates a "gnashing" . .the gnashing of teeth is simply an outward manifestation of an inward clash.  It's not a place, it's a state of mind . . . Scripture must interpret Scripture . . .

Psalm 35:16
With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

Acts 7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

This incident in Acts . . .it was the state of mind these people were in just before they stoned Stephen.  The place of gnashing of teeth is not hell . . .it's merely a state of one's mind that rejects the kingdom . . .the kingdom is not heaven, it's not a place either . .but like gnashing of teeth, it also is a state of mind.  The things I've been sharing here are coming from a transformed mind . . . I can't explain all I see . . .I can't understand all I see.  But I've learned to not let my mind do the reasoning anymore.  I no longer care if things make sense or not . . .because I know that God speaks through seeds . . .initially it looks like nothing, but leave it in me for a while and eventually, the nothing grows into something . . and the transformation continues.

I know that's not answering the issue directly . . . but I think if we're going to go into the kingdom, we should address the traditional assumptions as they surface . . .release them to the Father as we go . . .that's the only reason why differences pop up . . so they can be released to the Father. 

Now, more on topic . . . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

I hear ya Nathan and much to ponder here and I will do that as soon as my life slows down a bit. It is so good to look forward to though, these words of so many in this thread.

I am just saying that people, like you say, can't get over certain things like the need for the rapists and those who take joy in doing evil.............that these people need some kind of 'extra' punishment or they feel they just get a free ride to Heaven. Sure we can say it's not a free ride as it cost Jesus and His Father much but you know what I mean. If some can party and do evil up to and including the end and then get cleaned up later then this world would be even worse than it is.

I think we should take some time and seek God on what does happen to those who leave here unbelievers and downright nasty people. Do they just become enlightened and forgiven and move on? Is there any discomfort or downright terror and pain for these people? What do you think?

Again, I know I am equally or more nasty than any other person and I know I have been given infinitely more than I deserve so is this the story of the bad guys who live a life of badness and enjoy it and laugh in God's face? Do they die here and get cleaned up or set right somehow? Of course they do but is there any pain and misery for them?

cp

Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

Quote from: Nathan on June 06, 2009, 05:52:06 PM
. . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

At that point,  all that will be left will be good and righteous.   All purified by God through that sacrifical Lamb of God.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 06, 2009, 08:11:23 PM
Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

Ah, IMO, that's where a "somewhere in the middle, don't fall in the ditch on either side of the road" enters this particular part of the discussion.  I've been wanting to weigh in with this, thanks for the opportunity.

I believe brothers like Nathan have their important place in the body.  Won't mention names, not currently posting much here, but I also believe that's where a brother like ____________ who is very literal, has his important place in the body.  IMO, there is a literal;  a natural, that's it's not all "spiritual", and certainly not all allegorical.  I THINK IT"S BOTH, literal and spiritual.  I see it that many things, though literal, have deeper layers, spiritual meanings as it were.  And that's often where the "nuggets" are...they have to be dug out from beneath.  But that doesn't negate the literal aspect, there's just "more than meets the eye".   My (apparently s/w debatable) understanding is, that many things are primarily "to" others, but all of it for all of us (as God reveals).  As sister Card says, much of it is "hidden in plain sight".

So IMO, it's not all one or the other.  I see it as both;  we need both;  seeing one doesn't negate the other.  My  :2c:.

Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2009, 08:52:46 PM

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 06, 2009, 08:11:23 PM
Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

Ah, IMO, that's where a "somewhere in the middle, don't fall in the ditch on either side of the road" enters this particular part of the discussion.  I've been wanting to weigh in with this, thanks for the opportunity.

I believe brothers like Nathan have their important place in the body.  Won't mention names, not currently posting much here, but I also believe that's where a brother like ____________ who is very literal, has his important place in the body.  IMO, there is a literal;  a natural, that's it's not all "spiritual", and certainly not all allegorical.  I THINK IT"S BOTH, literal and spiritual.  I see it that many things, though literal, have deeper layers, spiritual meanings as it were.  And that's often where the "nuggets" are...they have to be dug out from beneath.  But that doesn't negate the literal aspect, there's just "more than meets the eye".   My (apparently s/w debatable) understanding is, that many things are primarily "to" others, but all of it for all of us (as God reveals).  As sister Card says, much of it is "hidden in plain sight".

So IMO, it's not all one or the other.  I see it as both;  we need both;  seeing one doesn't negate the other.  My  :2c:.

What is IMO?

I can relate to where Nathan is coming from and I too think that the Bible was written for us and for it all to unfold in this time period. On one hand I see it all as allegorical on the other hand there are times times I have to force myself to stop "looking for the real message" because looking for that "hidden message" will cause me to miss the beauty of the simplicity.

Words like "Sermon on the Mount" do not need to interpreted.......... just be allowed to do their perfect work.

Blessings

Doug

[/quote]
What is IMO?
[/quote]

In my opinion

Thanks, IMO I'd better start prefacing all my posts with IMO!! :thumbsup:

Quote from: Livelystone on June 06, 2009, 09:06:13 PM
I can relate to where Nathan is coming from and I too think that the Bible was written for us and for it all to unfold in this time period. On one hand I see it all as allegorical on the other hand there are times times I have to force myself to stop "looking for the real message" because looking for that "hidden message" will cause me to miss the beauty of the simplicity.

Words like "Sermon on the Mount" do not need to interpreted.......... just be allowed to do their perfect work.

Blessings

Doug

Yes, good point.

willieH: Hi Jab & Nate... :hithere:

I don't mean to be arguementative, nor disrespectful, ...and sincerely seek your responses to what I say below...  :friendstu:

Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2009, 08:45:52 PM

Quote from: Nathan on June 06, 2009, 05:52:06 PM
. . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

At that point,  all that will be left will be good and righteous.   All purified by God through that sacrifical Lamb of God.  :thumbsup:

Well... I just don't see this (unimaginable pain and suffering - even for a MOMENT) as part of "GOOD NEWS" to preach to the World -- (the GOSPEL) -- which (has, does & will) contain many "hitler types"...  Also, I see any forecast of TORMENT, TORTURE or PAIN to COME, is also contrary to:

(1) -- JESUS "taking AWAY" the Sin of the World... John 1:29 (if SIN is "taken AWAY", why would there be any FORTHCOMING "negative dealings" BECAUSE of it?) and,

(2) -- Paul's commentary that the ministry of Reconciliation designates SIN as not IMPUTED by God ("sin" inventory has "disappeared") -- 2 Cor 5:19 (if SIN is "not IMPUTED" or "disappeared", then wherein is the requirement of TORMENT, and/or PAIN due to it?)... as well as,

(3) --  CHRIST, in presenting the NEW COVENANT teaching of GRACE -- Matt 5:43-48 -- and PAUL, presenting JUSTIFICATION by it -- Rom 5:18-20 -- which notes to FORGIVE enemies... And does NOT teach that we "include a PRIOR BEATING, or TORTURE" of them (the "forgiven enemy"), before administering said "forgiveness"... 

Is there not therefore, a form of CONDEMNATION, administered within this proposed TORMENT and/or TORTURE?  The offender/enemy getting the "dickens" for his misdeeds -- THEN is "Forgiven"?  :wacko2:

Let me see... You "deserve" me to beat the LIVING #@*&% out of you, so I proceed to beat the LIVING #@*&% out of you, and THEN "forgive" you?  What kind of "GRACE" have I exhibited toward you?  And what kind of method of "FORGIVENESS" is this? 

You GOT what you "deserved, did you not? ...and certainly there was NO "GRACE" OR "FORGIVENESS" by ME toward YOU, presented... 

Once you GOT what you "deserved", then there was no further reason to withold "forgiveness"... for you PAID for your own misdeeds... To me that is DOUBLE TALK... and the language of IMPERFECTION...

The only way GRACE is GRACE... is if you get "forgiven" because LOVE stood up for you and took your JUST and DUE punishments...  And WITHIN that, was... GRACIOUS toward you, as it was YOU which "deserved" those punishments...  :dontknow:

If I go to the courtroom and tell you before the sentencing, I give you GOOD NEWS -- which IS, that I shall stand up for you after the penalty for YOUR misbehavior is pronounced!  Then, the JUDGE pronounces that you are due either 10 years in prison OR $100,000 fine for your MISBEHAVIOR,  ...and then, I remain silent (keeping my money in my pocket) and let you go into prison for the 10 years... what "GRACE" did I end up presenting on YOUR BEHALF?   :omg: 

And then, when you get "out", ...I am found expecting you to be "thankful" to me for my "FORGIVENESS" of you? :mnah:  For WHAT?  :mshock:  I didn't lift a finger for you!

Sorry, ...but I think this "proposal" to be a lot of BS (and IN LINE with "eye4eye justice", not NEW COVENANT GRACE)...  :sigh:  And is certainly NOT a picture of -- "GOOD NEWS"  :Shoot:

Defiled by the presentation of BAD NEWS... claiming it to be GOOD... :mnah:

Curious as to how a proposal of PAIN & TORMENT, ...all figures into a "FORGIVENESS--NOT IMPUTING--TAKEN AWAY" -- GOSPEL -- GOOD NEWS, ...type of scenario...  :dontknow:

Okay, first off . . . I want to clarify that in all my posts, I've never said there is no literal . . in fact I've said just the opposite . . .I believe there are actually three . . .one is literal/historical/physical, the next is moral dealing with inner values of a corporate body, and then there's the inward, the spiritual . . .all for me, are aligned with the tabernacle . . all are necessary and all are maturity levels we endure and progress through.  But having said that . . .it's the spirit we're to walk in and pursue . .the previous are stepping stones that lead to the inward . . .the heart of God. 

So even though many of my posts may seem out there . . .it's because 99% of Christians seem to already have the Bible stories themselves down, the moral principles are clearly taught by the church . .but you seldom are exposed to the spiritual . . in fact, it get's confused with the moral . . .it get's left out most of the time because people who embrace the literal have a serious problem with seeing it spiritually . . .one leads into the other, but once you enter into the new room, you no longer carry with you the equipment necessary for the previous room.  There lies the crux.  Laying down what got me here is the hardest thing for me to do . .but if I don't lay it down here . . .the Spirit can't usher me into "there".  Because literal and spiritual don't mix.  One "can" lead you to the other, but again, once you reach that level of maturity in your relationship with God . . .you lay down the elements you utilized that got you there.

Willie, I submit my comments to you bro . . .my comments dealing with death and judgment with the hitlers out there were not based on experience as many of my others are . . .they were based on perception, nothing more.  I want to be pliable enough in the Father that change comes easy, not hard . .and without resentment against another.  May I grow from your words and I appreciate your clarifying and edifying words more than my words will ever say.  I see what you're saying and as in other times in my own experiences, my mind does sometimes wrestle with the idea that the cross was not just for the judgment of the just, but the unjust as well . . .still hard to comprehend the depths of that.

Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

willieH: Hi dear brother N... :hithere:

You are a gleaming example of God brother... and, let me tell you, ...with YOUR WORDS, does the Father bless me often! (I can only speak for myself, but I am quite sure there is much agreement by others here to these words)

Quote from: Nathan on June 06, 2009, 10:42:22 PM
Willie, I submit my comments to you bro . . .my comments dealing with death and judgment with the hitlers out there were not based on experience as many of my others are . . .they were based on perception, nothing more.  I want to be pliable enough in the Father that change comes easy, not hard . .and without resentment against another.  May I grow from your words and I appreciate your clarifying and edifying words more than my words will ever say.  I see what you're saying and as in other times in my own experiences, my mind does sometimes wrestle with the idea that the cross was not just for the judgment of the just, but the unjust as well . . .still hard to comprehend the depths of that.

I spent 25 years within the Orthodox system, in various churches, mostly finding membership in The Salvation Army and 7th Day Adventists... through which God took me on a journey in which He exposed many of the "biggies" taught within that system...

I spent time with "tongues" in the --- Pentecostal independents and Assembly of God church,  ...and a slew of time with "Hellfire" --- Baptists, Healing Rooms International, and Salvation Army --- as well as "Annhilation and Sabbath" with the SDA's... Not to mention my own battles in the World as a professional musician... in which the foolishnesses of drinking, drugs, and adulterous temptations often assaulted me...  But He stood STRONG in my corner, and IN HIM and by HIS STRENGTH, ...have He and I fought my way out of ALL of these...

One day... amongst all this... I went to a secluded place in Spokane along the river... put my Bible before me on the Ground which GOD created... and amongst His Nature... and on my knees, ...I cried out with the entirety of my heart and the water of my eyes, the frustrations of my fallible manhood and humanity... noting to Him that I was nothing but a stupid man, which actually had found NO PEACE within those 25 years of "church" and "music"...

I opened to 2 Peter 3:9 and said this unto Him:  Father, if I were to have ONE WISH, I would have it be, that YOU get YOUR WISH... that NONE perish, and that ALL come to repentence...  :crywipe:

In that very moment... He began a new journey for me... For up until that time, I had NO KNOWLEDGE of the Salvation of ALL...  I went home and wrote a piece called "The WISH"... it was more a testimony than a song... although I consider it of the most dear to my heart, and of the most creative and blessed "writing moments" of my life...

This new journey has become PEACE for me brother... for not only did I discover that GOD's "wish" was coming true all along... but that PEACE was the formula for its realization...  In GOOD NEWS... only news that is GOOD, can be noted... for if ANY "bad news" is included... then a speck of its DARKNESS is seen defiling the whiteness of its purity and LIGHT...

He has been continually unveiling these 2 particular TRUTHS -- SALVATION of ALL, and the TRUTH of PEACE...  

Many will call me a "wishful" thinker... and really, I could care less... for I have PEACE in my heart concerning the ONE who LOVES me MOST...

I believe the Scriptures to be His LOVE SONG, written to His BELOVED ones... It's beauty is UNDEFILED by the horrors that the Sinful mind is able to erect which include PAIN induced FORGIVENESS...  instead, it is the BEAUTY which is proposed for ASHES... the LOVE which is ours FOREVER... and to me, bro... There is no "news" that even compares to it... for it is COMPLETE for ALL, in Him...

He is the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20 -- and

His message is the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

I am blessed to call you my brother, Nathan... and you occupy both the position of teacher to me (via His Hand), and are brother to me in so many ways I cannot describe... only suffice it to say that in His SPIRIT, are we brothers... and no other place is as wonderful, lasting, or comparable...  :friendstu:

Peace be unto you in all you do bro...

 :cloud9: Hi guys.....blessings abound on here....... :thumbsup:

I just wanted to add a little witness here, to the 1000 year thing, from witness of the Tabernacle. It was roughly 2000 years or 2 days from Adam to Moses, again roughly 2 days or 2000 years from Moses to Jesus, and 2 days or 2000 years from Jesus to the present. This brings us up to the dawning of the 7th day.

So if we understand that Adam's and Moses's "part" in the Tabernacle is represented by the outer court and therefore is 2000/2 days + 2000/2 days = 4000/4 days.

And then the inner court portion of the Tabernacle is the 2000/2 days that Jesus spoke of in saying, "Tell Herod that fox, that today (1 day/1000) and tomorrow (1 day/1000), I will do cures and cast out devils, is the 2 days/2000 years of Pentecost......

THEN it should be easy to see that the 3rd day, which lines up with the Holy of Holies in pattern, (1000/7th day from beginning) in which He said HE would be resurrected (raised up), HAS COME UPON THIS GENERATION.

So it's the 3rd day from Jesus, but the 7th day from Adam.

And so now; WHERE is Christ and is He not now a Spirit, for Paul said hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but after the Spirit, yes? So then, this makes sense what it says about Him being IN US, and that we are to be (caught up) INTO HIM.

Because; HE IS THE 7TH DAY, He IS the REST we were promised, IN HIM is no part darkness, there is nothing in the Holy of Holies, but Him at the right hand of the Father.

So as He is being resurrected up out these "graves" He's been planted in, so too shall we be caught up with Him, for if the SAME SPIRIT that raised Christ from the dead, dwell in you........Blessings.....

willieH: Hi cp...  :icon_king:

I agree, Nathan does present his thoughts VERY WELL!

Quote from: claypot on June 06, 2009, 11:41:09 PM
Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

To begin with cp, what does "GRACE" mean?  We are not to JUDGE... for in our own reflection is SIN found in the mirror...  Just because society deems that killing is worse than dishonoring your mother, does not find differentiation in the Eyes of GOD, for offending the Law in ANY point, offends the whole standard for it is ONE!

If we wish to find the benevolence of GRACE... it is not found in noting another's deeds as worse than ones own...  GRACE is best obtained in a more SELF--focused confession...

IOW -- I don't say, "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum, but at least it isn't as bad as ______ (whomever you might like to suggest) was when he called his mother a  :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:
Instead I say,  "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum" .  <-- PERIOD!

As my previous posts outlined... "FORGIVENESS" with the "prerequisite" of TORMENT in order to "bring things back to even", is hardly "FORGIVENESS" at all... 

Let's see, something like:  "...I'll "FORGIVE" you AFTER, ...I have suffieciently TORTURED you for what YOU did..."

Hmmm... what is WRONG with this picture?  Is it not in the "eye4eye" format which JESUS said was NO LONGER in force?  Matt 5:43-48

Where is New Covenant GRACE which teaches to FORGIVE, BLESS and LOVE, enemies?  Where does this teaching in Matt 5 & Luke 6 instruct to TORTURE the "enemy" first, before this FORGIVENESS, BLESSING and LOVE is "bestowed"?

No man is able to be involved in the MOMENT of DEATH of another... In that MOMENT, what can take place?  It GOD limited?  Is this a "moment of reckoning"?  I guess we must DIE to find out, eh?

I cannot say what the moment of DEATH holds until I experience it... however...

Men are ordained to live as GOD has noted they shall -- He DECLARED the entirety of the length and History of Humanity, before ONE MOMENT had occured -- Isaiah 46:10-11

Also... GOD is completely IMPARTIAL... what He does for ONE, that IMPARTIALITY requires He do for another...

Paul notes in Romans 9:18-20 that He DOES as HE chooses, and no man has the right to object to the process...

I have pointed out on several occasions, that GOD -- KNOWING beforehand, ALL that Hitler would DO... brought him forth regardless...  and DID NOTHING to stop those actions from occuring...  :dontknow:  Can GOD be considered exempt from those actions?

Let's put it this way... If you saw a man beating his wife... and stood by watching, would another consider you justified in your inaction?  Hey - it was your choice, but was it the right one?  Another would judge you as CONDONING the beating, because you opted to abstain from intervening...  Well what about GOD, cp?

Not only did He KNOW what hitler would DO, but He brought him forth anyway, and then did NOTHING to stop him... Why?  -- Rom 9:18 ...whom HE WILL, ...He HARDENETH.

The negativity we see in man, is PURPOSED, otherwise, it would not occur... and remains IN and UNDER, ...HIS CONTROL... Rom 13:1

I hope I have answered you cp... let me know...

Quote from: willieH on June 07, 2009, 12:31:03 AM
willieH: Hi cp...  :icon_king:

I agree, Nathan does present his thoughts VERY WELL!

Quote from: claypot on June 06, 2009, 11:41:09 PM
Nathan, first of all I think you present yourself and your thoughts very well. I agree with your foundational thoughts.

Willie, I wrote and rewrote but can't seem to say what I want to say. Let me ask you a question.........

I am saved by grace. Hitler is saved by grace. The guy today who is raping some little girl is saved by grace. Is this how you see it Willie?

If so, then, just in your opinion which I value highly, do the evildoers go through any pain and misery at all before light fills them at some point? I mean, not that God is beating on them or anything for their sins, (Jesus took care of their sins) but do they just go from living an outright evil lifestyle here into paradise?

cp

To begin with cp, what does "GRACE" mean?  We are not to JUDGE... for in our own reflection is SIN found in the mirror...  Just because society deems that killing is worse than dishonoring your mother, does not find differentiation in the Eyes of GOD, for offending the Law in ANY point, offends the whole standard for it is ONE!

If we wish to find the benevolence of GRACE... it is not found in noting another's deeds as worse than ones own...  GRACE is best obtained in a more SELF--focused confession...

IOW -- I don't say, "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum, but at least it isn't as bad as ______ (whomever you might like to suggest) was when he called his mother a  :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:
Instead I say,  "Lord... please forgive me for stealing that piece of bubble gum" .  <-- PERIOD!

As my previous posts outlined... "FORGIVENESS" with the "prerequisite" of TORMENT in order to "bring things back to even", is hardly "FORGIVENESS" at all... 

Let's see, something like:  "...I'll "FORGIVE" you AFTER, ...I have suffieciently TORTURED you for what YOU did..."

Hmmm... what is WRONG with this picture?  Is it not in the "eye4eye" format which JESUS said was NO LONGER in force?  Matt 5:43-48

Where is New Covenant GRACE which teaches to FORGIVE, BLESS and LOVE, enemies?  Where does this teaching in Matt 5 & Luke 6 instruct to TORTURE the "enemy" first, before this FORGIVENESS, BLESSING and LOVE is "bestowed"?

No man is able to be involved in the MOMENT of DEATH of another... In that MOMENT, what can take place?  It GOD limited?  Is this a "moment of reckoning"?  I guess we must DIE to find out, eh?

I cannot say what the moment of DEATH holds until I experience it... however...

Men are ordained to live as GOD has noted they shall -- He DECLARED the entirety of the length and History of Humanity, before ONE MOMENT had occured -- Isaiah 46:10-11

Also... GOD is completely IMPARTIAL... what He does for ONE, that IMPARTIALITY requires He do for another...

Paul notes in Romans 9:18-20 that He DOES as HE chooses, and no man has the right to object to the process...

I have pointed out on several occasions, that GOD -- KNOWING beforehand, ALL that Hitler would DO... brought him forth regardless...  and DID NOTHING to stop those actions from occuring...  :dontknow:  Can GOD be considered exempt from those actions?

Let's put it this way... If you saw a man beating his wife... and stood by watching, would another consider you justified in your inaction?  Hey - it was your choice, but was it the right one?  Another would judge you as CONDONING the beating, because you opted to abstain from intervening...  Well what about GOD, cp?

Not only did He KNOW what hitler would DO, but He brought him forth anyway, and then did NOTHING to stop him... Why?  -- Rom 9:18 ...whom HE WILL, ...He HARDENETH.

The negativity we see in man, is PURPOSED, otherwise, it would not occur... and remains IN and UNDER, ...HIS CONTROL... Rom 13:1

I hope I have answered you cp... let me know...

...willieH  :cloud9:

This brings me to something that has been stirring in my heart. Since I've been introduced to UR I've only heard of this age-abiding torment. But everyone is dealt hardship and torment in life. The godly are dealt pain and hardship, but we have Christ. The ungodly are dealt hardship AND are still trapped in their sin. This is enlightening. And I hold your opinion very highly as well Willie ( along with Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, Nathan, and many others who are clearly seasoned as God's people). It's been about three yrs, since God showed me that all will be saved. I don't post as much as I just read and take in. Sometimes I want to respond but by time I've read everyone's post I feel like I don't have to. I just want you all to know you sharpen me constantly and I"m greatful for the wisdom of God in this Place!

Grace and Peace,

Brandon

Willie, You have helped with your words. I fully understand that God could have stopped Hitler anytime and the rapist and so forth. I understand too some of the responsibility of God in all things.

I started asking my recent questions just to explain how hard it is for the average person today to understand, well, grace. Grace is amazing. It forgives and cleans up 'Hitler' as well as Mother Theresa. It just does.

But it is no wonder how people mostly can't understand this. I think this is mostly an American thing too although not limited to Americans. I mean we are taught that the bad guys got to pay the ultimate price for their badness while the good guys win out. It's hard to understand that good guys and bad guys just are and that's the way it is.

So Willie, are you thinking that people who enjoy doing evil and spend their days here on earth doing so.......do you think they eventually just go through the same process as you and I to be made in the image of God?

Willie you say the negativity we see in man is purposed. I imagine you mean purposed by God, correct?

I see some people who do evil as incapable of doing otherwise at least at the time they are doing it. Do you think a guy who can just up and kill another person almost just for the fun of it could do otherwise? Do we all kill others like Jesus said when He spoke about us being angry with another is like murder? So are the rapists and killers that abound in the physical just like us who do it in the realm of the mind?

I will probably never kill another human and will probably always see it as wrong while another will do the deed without hardly a thought. Is this just how we are made? I have my reasons for not killing or raping in the physical. I seem to be guided by an inner make up that makes certain things very unappealing to me yet others have not this make up in them so they can do things I would never do.

So Willie, would you say a rapist, because of his make up will rape while you or I probably won't ever rape because stuff in our make up will keep us from such a deed?

Would you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

cp

   This is a great thread  guys , being blessed to read your thoughts on these matters

  :icon_flower:   I  thought of  something Peter wrote  when reading  Claypots  question
about the rapist scenario ,
we all suffer here in our flesh and spirit , no one is exempt !!

and how would we  NOT know'' perceive '' evil  unless the Lord ''turned one over''  for this use ?
Peter  put his in a way  that I can totally ''get it '  seems when you are conscientiously  aware   of the presence of the Lord    we consider all things  working together  for the good of those  called  by Him  to suffer for doing GOOD WORKS   and dying also in the flesh  that our spirit is in the Lord [innocent ] many of little ones  ,  natually seaking and spiritually speaking  have died also this Death ..
  but the  flesh has no thought of Gods ''presence ''  and the conscience is not aware

these are all in Adam and do die  without knowledge of God  , such as hitler  maybe ?
  I do not know if he died guilt ridden  or not  , guilt to me is a  sign of tresspass [sin]   and we know Christ died that we can be saved  from death   and hell [grave] 







Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: 


1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 


1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 


1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. 


1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 


1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 


1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 


1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 


1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 


1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 


1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 


1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 


1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 

 
you guys keep a going with this ...
  I did not mean to ''butt'' in  :dontknow:
    but the words of Peter come to mind , on how we do suffer  for well doing or evil doing
on How God wills/ desires   it to come to pass, and be so  for each and every one of us
  born in this world

  God bless  :HeartThrob:

I was giving you props, Nathan.  If it seemed I was placing you in the "no literal at all" camp, I had noticed an earlier post in this thread where you said "for me, it's all spiritual".  Soooo...maybe I took what you said too literally  :laughing7:.  Hey at least I was paying attention to what you said  :happy3:.    You've clarified, good, thanks. :Peace2:   You get no big arguments from me.  Again, I think both views/a mixture of views is important for the growth of the Body.

Same with you, Bro Willi.  Though I do believe there will be "aonian chastisement", I don't swear to know what that is, how long it is (if it's a second or 100 years)...I don't know.  My guess would be, none of us do for sure.  I do think the "here and now" ideas of LOF etc. are intrigueing.  I benefit from your POV, I just think there's still much none of understand or ever will as long as we're mortal.  Not that we shouldn't seek truth, share truth, etc., just that IMO, we still see through a glass darkly...perhaps it's getting clearer, and thanks for your sharing.  :thumbsup:  There are many carrying pieces of the picture, and I believe there's a lot of good perspective and food for thought in your posts.

And yeah, don't be argumentative and disrespectful, you wascal  :laughing7:.

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 05:25:11 AM
I was giving you props, Nathan.  If it seemed I was placing you in the "no literal at all" camp, I had noticed an earlier post in this thread where you said "for me, it's all spiritual".  You've clarified, good.  You get no big arguments from me.  Again, I think both views/a mixture of views is important for the growth of the Body.

Same with you, Bro Willi.  Though I do believe there will be "aonian chastisement", I don't swear to know what that is, how long it is (if it's a second or 100 years)...I don't know.  My guess would be, none of us do for sure.  I benefit from your POV, I just think there's still much none of understand or ever will as long as we're mortal.  Not that we shouldn't seek truth, share truth, etc., just that IMO, we still see through a glass darkly...perhaps it's getting clearer, and thanks for your sharing.  :thumbsup:

  Hey Jabby  :icon_flower:
     I agree with your assessment  bro .
  and  i always  get ''confused ''  when trying to sort out the natural from the spiritual

   my error lol..  :sigh:   this is just my honest answer  though 
  still praying for that ''gift of discernment ''  :thumbsup:

    this is one reason why I dont post as much  these days , to  speak for God
on how He is doing things  is  way  over my head  :HeartThrob:

and I am not certain on how it all will go down ...but God does do a perfect work  , that I am sure of
  God bless  :HeartThrob:

Good thread.  Much to contemplate, both natural and spiritual.  I agree rosered, I get confused too.

What I know for sure:
- God is love
- God is in control
- God will save all

How He does it, that is another story.... everyone has their theories, scriptures, and interpretations.  I'm still learning.

That's where the faith comes in I suppose.

Peace.

yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 06:08:01 AM
yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

LOL    good one Jabby  hee hee  :thumbsup: :grin:  me too learning to listen to the   right voice that speaks  reason
   ''right on ''leggoman!    GOD IS IN POWER!! I see hand as ''power'' to do '' in a spiritual sense


do you think that is what Jesus meant when he said'' Therefore when you do [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 


Mat 6:3 But when you do alms, let not your  left hand know what your  right hand does: 
Mat 6:4 That your  alms may be in secret: and thy Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you  openly.   

  God is not far away as I supposed,  many years ago when I was younger .
  I more see it now as the battle is ''within '' us  and God is gaining ground   daily !  :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: Whoo Hoo !!  !  :HeartThrob:
 

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AM
Would you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

Jesus said, "I AM the RESURRECTION."

He declares that the hour is coming and "now is" when the dead shall hear His voice and live.

I show you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

We seem to be in a period of testing and trials to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom to act or make a decision. A period of probation; a time to be considerate or thoughtful by the Grace of God. And the right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.

But rest assured, He will rectify the misguided in due time.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

This is the state of one who has returned to life from the sting of death.


peacemaker

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 06:08:01 AM
yeah, rose and lego...should I admit to being almost constantly confused about something?   :mshock:

One advantage of being aware that one is confused is it means one is not reprobate...or so I think...probably...anyway, that is one interior state in which I am an ever improving expert...in case you might not have wanted to know...

I wanted to post in this thread so I could be alerted to its development.  I've been following it from the first. Everybody else is saying much of what I would say.

It's a wonderful thing: realizing in truth that I am both redundant and confused!!!  Now, if I can just continue getting no answers to my prayers...

I am loving this thread.
Willie.. I really connect with what you are saying.
Thanks, brother.

PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

Some of my take on the 'sufferings' of those who go to the grave still doing and finding no problem with doing evil is this........

Judgement is a good thing. It is a time of revealing what really is. When those who have not really seen sin for what it is, do finally see it, they will be crushed, ashamed, horrified and so on at what they did and what sin has made of them. This, to me, is an outer darkness, gnashing of teeth experience. It is not God torturing anyone or an eternal torment kind of thing, it is what it is.

Now when God shows them how He was involved and how He is making all come out right, that is when salvation and healing will come. Same as with us who know something of salvation now.

cp

 :cloud9: His judgments are unto victory, which is why He didn't leave anyone out of them. Blessings....

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

anyone who denies, given the right circumstances would do as hitler did, is not ready yet.

i  also love the people who always bring hitler up and say he deserves to spend eternity in torment, they dont even realize they have also asigned the very ones he killed to an eterity of torment.


chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on June 07, 2009, 04:33:00 PM

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

anyone who denies, given the right circumstances would do as hitler did, is not ready yet.

i  also love the people who always bring hitler up and say he deserves to spend eternity in torment, they dont even realize they have also asigned the very ones he killed to an eterity of torment.


chuckt

Both good points Chuck. Thanks.

I think we are products of zillions things and most of those zillion things are totally out of our control. I think we have choices that do alter our lives but compared to the other internal and external stimulai that alter our lives I think the things we have control of is minimal.

cp

Quote from: chuckt on June 07, 2009, 04:33:00 PM

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

anyone who denies, given the right circumstances would do as hitler did, is not ready yet.

i  also love the people who always bring hitler up and say he deserves to spend eternity in torment, they dont even realize they have also asigned the very ones he killed to an eterity of torment.


chuckt

Just as we are saved by grace so were our sins limited by grace. Many times (I speak for myself only) we were limited to not being judged by man but having committed murder in our hearts are still guilty before God. However our Father in His mercy did not permit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to be reflected through the actions and circumstances in our past.

That being said many of us have not been any different nor are we any better then Hitler was even if his murders were many

Keep in mind that Paul when he was Saul was a murderer of Christians but because it was approved of by the existing government he was not charged of a crime by man nevertheless as a bondservant to Christ he lived a life of hardships all the way up until martyrdom............ and was still able to say of himself before his death that he had lived and fought a good fight for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: chuckt on June 07, 2009, 04:33:00 PM

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
PM, you wrote...

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice.......

So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

cp

anyone who denies, given the right circumstances would do as hitler did, is not ready yet.

i  also love the people who always bring hitler up and say he deserves to spend eternity in torment, they dont even realize they have also asigned the very ones he killed to an eterity of torment.


chuckt

I'll deny it.   

The majority of people are just trying to get by--hence the banality of evil--it is usually just a common weed, an everyday variety of sloth.

But, real evil is bottomless and knows no bounds, and that is reserved for a select few of unregenerate demons, who through some slight of hand are seemingly never recognized by the masses except in the rear view mirror of history.

Our failing is our inability to see truth when it is staring us in the face, not our propensity for evil.

The day when the general population can see truth all of the time, will be the day of God's will on earth.

Satan is not any different today than he was at the time of job when it was God's Will what would happen to him and by whom it was done.

It may be the prayers of parents or it may be for His good pleasure how and why the limits of Satan are set however before the Seed that is Christ came into us our spirit and souls were part of the kingdoms of Satan that he tried to tempt Jesus with after His time and fast in the wilderness.............. If God gave Satan a free hand with any of us and Satan desired any sin to be committed by us........... it came to be.

Blessings

As

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 04:08:43 PM
Some of my take on the 'sufferings' of those who go to the grave still doing and finding no problem with doing evil is this........

Judgement is a good thing. It is a time of revealing what really is. When those who have not really seen sin for what it is, do finally see it, they will be crushed, ashamed, horrified and so on at what they did and what sin has made of them. This, to me, is an outer darkness, gnashing of teeth experience. It is not God torturing anyone or an eternal torment kind of thing, it is what it is.

Now when God shows them how He was involved and how He is making all come out right, that is when salvation and healing will come. Same as with us who know something of salvation now.

cp

Well put CP. And I see where you are coming from.

One thing to remeber about the dead being "tormented or tortured" is that they already are tormented in their state when they are alive. That's like when you tell somenone about UR, and they respond by saying "Oh so I can just go do whatever I want and it will be o.k.

1. If that's what your first response is to that than your revealing your heart, and that's what you would be doing if you didn't believe God would send you to hell for it.

2. That's not freedom! Doing "whatever we want" is what leads us into more bondage. Those who kill, rape, etc. are torured souls as it is. They may say they enjoy what they do, but there is no peace found in them; no freedom from sin at all.

just adding my  :2c:

Grace and peace

Quote from: Livelystone on June 07, 2009, 05:46:30 PM

Just as we are saved by grace so were our sins limited by grace. Many times (I speak for myself only) we were limited to not being judged by man but having committed murder in our hearts are still guilty before God. However our Father in His mercy did not permit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to be reflected through the actions and circumstances in our past.

That being said many of us have not been any different nor are we any better then Hitler was even if his murders were many

Keep in mind that Paul when he was Saul was a murderer of Christians but because it was approved of by the existing government he was not charged of a crime by man nevertheless as a bondservant to Christ he lived a life of hardships all the way up until martyrdom............ and was still able to say of himself before his death that he had lived and fought a good fight for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Blessings

Doug

:cloud9: This is true but this is a hard saying, as the expression goes. Add to that, that the outer court ones are only doing what they see the spiritual priesthood inner court ones "do" in their hearts, as the body is one but has many parts, and it gets even "stickier".

And which is why Jesus admonished the Pharisees to wash the INSIDE of the cup, not the outside only. But that is still only possible by working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and the grace of God. So there you go; thus Paul's heartfelt cry, "Who will deliver me out of this body of sin?" Blessings....

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 05:21:45 PM
I think we are products of zillions things and most of those zillion things are totally out of our control. I think we have choices that do alter our lives but compared to the other internal and external stimulai that alter our lives I think the things we have control of is minimal.
cp

I'm saying Pharoah was a really swell guy before he decided to fulfill God's purpose for him by choosing to become a derelict  :whistleshake:.     

I believe he certainly made choices in his life, but when it came right down to the bottom line, what does scripture say about God "appointing vessels"? 

But, we have been delivered out of this body of sin, so there is no excuse.





1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

--Rom 8

 :cloud9: Have you ever noticed that the day of the Lord is spoken of some places as being one of fearful judgment and wrath, and in another, as being wonderful on all counts? How could it be both at the same time?

When the soul and spirit are separated, this is called "death". Our body was never alive to begin with as God looks at "live" in the eternal aspects of us, and as it is destined to return to the inanimate dust it came from (until the last "trump").

So let's focus on just these two for now. So since we were born that way, which is why He said let the dead bury the dead, nothing changes that after the veil of this blinding flesh is removed.

The soul and the spirit are still separated at death, just like they were at "birth" here. And so it says, we are only separated from Him in our minds (part of our soulish man), ie. our soul keeps us separated.

Now what happens when we receive Him initially, is we receive the ingrafted Spirit of the Holy One, and thru it begins the, "work out your own salvation (of the soul) with fear and trembling".

This is not an overnight quick fix, nor was it intended to be. This Word that is His breath/Spirit, is working on becoming "celestial" flesh in US; new flesh, Holy flesh, a new tabernacle, not made with hands (works of flesh) of men, reserved in the heavenlies (realm of Spirit) for when this one is dissolved.

So essentially, what we have going on, is God is building an Ark to preserve us, even to the saving of our soul. Now here's the "sticky" part. We have to be willing to lay that soul on the altar, to live. God's ways are not our ways; and this looks backwards to carnal minds. What? We have to die to live?!

When He was rebuking man in the OT, He said, "Have I not said ye are gods and ye die like men?" The key point here is not the gods part of it; the key point here is that God is taking us to task over the MANNER in which we die. There is, 1) like gods, and 2) like men. God is not pleased with the latter choice.

The solution is presented in this; "No greater love has any man than he lay down His life for his friend." Abraham, the father of our faith, was described as God's friend. Abraham knew to lay down all that he had been given (the best he had of his life and it's joys), to live.

But it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment; there are layers to this, but I'm going only going to share one now. If we die with Him, then we shall also be raised with Him.

So the point is, as it is a great and glorious day to half of our make-up, it is a "terrible day of wrath and judgment" to the other half of our make-up. If, by the time of the death of the body, the two above have not been COMPLETELY reconciled IN HIM, as ONE NEW MAN, then nothing has changed, as His "judgments" are unto victory even unto the saving of the soul.

And so the spirit returns to the One who sent it, but the soul stays bound in a "purgatory" like state awaiting the Redeemer, coming to a realization of repentance, ie. the prodigal son. And what does the Father say to the incomplete son that is spirit? YOU WERE ALWAYS WITH ME, (spirits of just men made perfect) BUT THIS MY SON (soul/He called THEIR name Adam), WAS DEAD.

But let both be reconciled to the perfection of the Father's Spirit, and you have those that were REDEEMED out of every kindred, tongue and nation, crying out from under the altar, "How long O Lord before the rest of our brethren be killed as we were?" This is not a cry for vengeance, this is a cry for LOVE to win out over death, "hell" (as purgatory), and the grave.

Now that altar had a grate, upon which the sacrifices (make of yourselves a living sacrifice) were placed, bound with cords of love that cannot be broken (Love is stronger than DEATH), and the FIRE came upon it CONSUMING the offering. The only thing below that grate then, were ASHES, ie. for your ashes He gives you beauty, the beauty of the Christ nature.

There is nothing in and of itself that makes us whole thru death, it is a thief; but rather it is the meeting of the 4th man in the fire, that makes us whole. And whether we meet Him while still in the body or out of it, the meeting of Him is the judgment of God to our soul, a DAY (He IS the 1000 year day of the Lord) of great and terrible things, but to our spirit, a day of exceeding great joy, once the final trump (message of the mystery of life) has sounded.

Behold, we shall not all (of our parts) sleep (as the soul sleeps), but we shall ALL be raised up (both from above/spirit and from below/soul) at the final trump. This is why the wheat (spirit) and tares (souls spotted by the flesh of sin) are raised up together, and why when HE arose, many arose with Him. Blessings.....

Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2009, 08:19:55 PM
But, we have been delivered out of this body of sin, so there is no excuse.

God's work through us...in those He chooses.  In those He chooses, He is the Author and Finisher..I've yet to see anyone choose to live for God in their own strength and it worked...there is none good. 

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 08:25:21 PM

Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2009, 08:19:55 PM
But, we have been delivered out of this body of sin, so there is no excuse.

God's work through us...in those He chooses.  In those He chooses, He is the Author and Finisher..I've yet to see anyone choose to live for God in their own strength and it worked...there is none good. 

The holiness movement? No.

Neither have I known many who spent their time searching out all truth.  If there were more, this world would be a better place to live.

Ah Mol, I grew up in and around it.  Full of angry, judgmental, "wear dresses to a certain length, pile your long hair on your head in a bee-hive, don't wear make-up, don't own a TV, better not ever go to a movie, or a dance, or to major league baseball game, or say 'darn', or men's hair better not touch their collar, or women wear pants, or men shorts, or...."  Then look down on anyone not fitting that mold as "not saved, full of the devil, on your way to A DEVIL'S HA-EL!!!! 

Sure, I agree...if we all made better choices it would be a good thing...however, I believe God has certain purposes and plans, and He's choosing who He will to accomplish those ends...bigger than I can really comprehend, but that's how I see it  :icon_rr:.

Blessings, friend.

Ok just reading through this thread again and having some thoughts.  Need to jot this down and see what others think.

First: WOW.

- the day of the Lord is NOW - its this life?
- we are being judged NOW
- we are going through "eternal" (aionios) torment right NOW
- we don't have rest, day or night, right NOW (Rev 14:11)
- we (believers) are not hurt of the second death (lake of fire), but we still go through it?
- this is because we realize what is happening, we are all being judged now?
- it will only take a nanosecond for Hitler to realize He was wrong when He see's God?
- likewise for everyone else?
- revelations is, was, and will be, therefore the lake of fire is NOW..?
- WHEN were we thrown into the lake of fire?

Just some thoughts, some still questions, but I see possibilities.

Help!  And again: WOW.

Legoman

Quote from: legoman on June 07, 2009, 09:01:26 PM
Ok just reading through this thread again and having some thoughts.  Need to jot this down and see what others think.

First: WOW.

- the day of the Lord is NOW - its this life?
- we are being judged NOW
- we are going through "eternal" (aionios) torment right NOW
- we don't have rest, day or night, right NOW (Rev 14:11)
- we (believers) are not hurt of the second death (lake of fire), but we still go through it?
- this is because we realize what is happening, we are all being judged now?
- it will only take a nanosecond for Hitler to realize He was wrong when He see's God?
- likewise for everyone else?
- revelations is, was, and will be, therefore the lake of fire is NOW..?
- WHEN were we thrown into the lake of fire?

Just some thoughts, some still questions, but I see possibilities.

Help!  And again: WOW.

Legoman

Another point.  If the above is TRUE, and the lake of fire is NOW... then the elect are the ministers, priests, kings, and judges right NOW.  We (if we are elect) should be helping others to see the truth (if that is God's plan).  That is how we judge the world... we are bringing people "through the fire" so to speak and to realize that it is all God's plan, God is good, He will save all, and He is teaching us all right now.

Possibility?

And furthermore, those who have aionios life, have it right NOW.  While others will NEVER see this life, because they are living the life of the damned, right NOW.  They have been resurrected to damnation, maybe?

Where does the resurrection fit in here?  It must be still at the end of the age...?

WOW so many thoughts swirling here.  I'm scaring myself at the possibilities.

Legoman

That was quite a post Cardinal .......... you are a woman after God, to know Him, to become one with Him.

I just got back in so I am going to have to spend some more time with what you have shared here

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
So do you think Hitler had a choice to do as He did? I don't want to get into a big free will discussion here but I am really interested in this.

With all the inner and outer, mental, physical, spiritual workings of Hitler, could he have chosen to be a nice guy who delivered pizza for a living and helped old ladies across the street? Was this kind of life style and mind and heart adjustment just a choice away?

Could Hitler have loved Jewish people if he would have chosen to?

And let the one who hears say, "Come."
And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes (worthy or unworthy) take the water of life without cost.

Quote from: peacemaker on June 07, 2009, 11:25:21 PM
And let the one who hears say, "Come."
And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes (worthy or unworthy) take the water of life without cost.

Great scripture.  In its context, IMO, it's especially awesome.  What's happening in that chapter, who's being primarily addressed, and when?

Here's another one for thought, with the same questions as the three above being applicable.

They said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 08:25:21 PM
God's work through us...in those He chooses. 

To "Select" indicates that of a choice made based on fitness for the task at hand. And to appoint is synonymous with select, or chosen; elect.

peacemaker

(context, context, context ...)

I'll stand by the point.  When taken in proper context, I believe scripture does teach that God chooses.  Don't you think God has a "task at hand" for those he chooses?  Definitions of the ecclesia include "called out..set aside for a specific purpose".  Not all are chosen in this lifetime.  I won't get into all the scriptures and reasons why I believe this is so.  You've probably already heard them at one time or another.   There probably is a whole other discussion about called/chosen and exactly what that means.  Don't see anything in your post though that negates this;  "God's work through us...in those He chooses."

Although I believe it often takes a body of many scriptures examined and revealed to a doctrine make, I'll include one here.  Maybe I'm missing something; if there's further necessary context involved, great, let's honestly look at it, with neither resorting to unhelpful sarcasm.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version)  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...

So again, addressing the earlier posts;  if both (and all) scriptures are "universally, primarily applicable" to just however we want to use them, then we would have a contradiction in the two verses in the earlier posts above.  And I don't believe scripture contradicts itself when taken in proper context, is Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided. 

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

As always you propose the thoughts of a curious and seeking mind!  :thumbsup:  :happyclap:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AM
Willie, You have helped with your words. I fully understand that God could have stopped Hitler anytime and the rapist and so forth. I understand too some of the responsibility of God in all things.

GOD is the Creator of ALL THINGS... and therefore RESPONSIBLE for (1) their existence (2) their positions in proximity to good and evil for (3) He is the emergent center of this knowledge (4) has FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things so NOTHING "surprises" Him (5) has a PURPOSE in which He uses ALL THINGS to bring them to their respective conclusions... and much more! 

Responsible?  I'd say the "buck" starts and ends with Him -- Rev 1:8 :yes:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI started asking my recent questions just to explain how hard it is for the average person today to understand, well, grace. Grace is amazing. It forgives and cleans up 'Hitler' as well as Mother Theresa. It just does.

But it is no wonder how people mostly can't understand this. I think this is mostly an American thing too although not limited to Americans. I mean we are taught that the bad guys got to pay the ultimate price for their badness while the good guys win out. It's hard to understand that good guys and bad guys just are and that's the way it is.

Let's try a hypothetical scenario... What if "Hitler" (who, btw was born to the FAMILY GOD chose, and WHEN God chose, and in the ERA -- GOD chose, and was placed amongst the environment GOD chose - ad infinitum)... were born as FRANKLIN GRAHAM instead of the fam & era he was BORN in, via GOD's choices...

Do you think he would've become the same VILE, and DESTRUCTIVE person he became? Under the tutiledge of Billy Graham?  Whatcha think?  :JCThink:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMSo Willie, are you thinking that people who enjoy doing evil and spend their days here on earth doing so.......do you think they eventually just go through the same process as you and I to be made in the image of God?

People who "enjoy" evil?  In observing (as a counsellor in a homeless shelter), many persons who, by their own bad decisions and involvements in evil, became "destroyed" as far as a HOME, and or NORMAL life might involve... almost to a person, noted very TROUBLED and ANXIETY ridden minds...

It is easy to observe a "serial killer", and deduce him as LESS than yourself... For he appears to "enjoy" his actions... however... deeper scrutiny upon such a mind (if in fact he/she is subdued by authorities), often reveals a VERY TROUBLED PATHWAY...

Let us take our "serial killer" and name his victims as WOMEN...

In other words Let's list some possible things which may have "occured" upon the "PATHWAY" to Serial Killing (without making excuse for that negative behavior),

This person might have been ...BEATEN in childhood by women (mother, sisters, neighborhood kids, etc),  ...REJECTED by them in adolsescence (turned down for dates, laughed upon at school dances, mocked by them for his "2nd hand clothing", etc),  ...FIRED in the workplace (by female supervisors, or maybe by false accusations made by female co-workers)...

NONE of these facts are known by YOU... only his "enjoyment" of evil, which is seen in his "Serial Killings"... 

My point is, that GOD only knows in many cases, the deep bruising and sorrow which we have, and MEN cannot see... Which is why He said NOT to JUDGE, and COMMANDED we FORGIVE enemies...  :dontknow:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMWillie you say the negativity we see in man is purposed. I imagine you mean purposed by God, correct?

I believe we walk in this life according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of our lives... and NOTHING of GOD is vain... however, ALL of this life -- that which MEN do (the entire CREATION)... has been SUBJECTED to VANITY -- BY Him... Rom 8:20-21

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI see some people who do evil as incapable of doing otherwise at least at the time they are doing it. Do you think a guy who can just up and kill another person almost just for the fun of it could do otherwise?

No... if it occurs, the act is DECLARED to be so... And I really don't think any killing is ever (foundationally done -- in the deepest portion of the offender)... for the "fun of it"...

If there were no such thing as DIRTY, how could we possibly know what CLEAN was?  God in WISDOM has created this scenario in which we live and die, to teach us the Universal applications and NECESSITY of OPPOSITES. 

In this, the GOOD that GOD IS -- to the "extreme", ...is being displayed by EVIL -- in the very SAME "extreme"...  :dontknow:  And "we" are the "players" in the "play"... :yes: ...WRITTEN by the Great PLAYWRITE... who's NAME is LOVE!  :myahoo:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMDo we all kill others like Jesus said when He spoke about us being angry with another is like murder? So are the rapists and killers that abound in the physical just like us who do it in the realm of the mind?

JESUS noted that the things which occur in the mind, are the very same as carrying out that "thought" in the Physical...  If I call you a name in thought, and don't do so in the physical... am I, because I didn't AUDIBLIZE my thought, still a "good guy"  Or are you silently DECIEVED by my REAL thoughts of you?  You are oblivious of my corrupted character concerning you... but inside, ...I am the same BUM that I would be considered by such derrogatory condescension, even though I didn't make YOU aware of it...  :sigh:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI will probably never kill another human and will probably always see it as wrong while another will do the deed without hardly a thought. Is this just how we are made? I have my reasons for not killing or raping in the physical. I seem to be guided by an inner make up that makes certain things very unappealing to me yet others have not this make up in them so they can do things I would never do.

Many are called, FEW are chosen, cp... You are ORDAINED to walk in GOOD WORKS, if indeed you WALK in them - eh?  Eph 2:10

By the same token... another is NOT chosen to "walk in them"... and consequently, we have killers and rapists amongst us... which were KNOWN, before they were BORN, and have "walked" otherwise, yet were BORN nevertheless!  :dontknow:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMSo Willie, would you say a rapist, because of his make up will rape while you or I probably won't ever rape because stuff in our make up will keep us from such a deed?

There is not ONE speck of dust upon the earth, that does not have a particular place in the wisdom and power of GOD... HE works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... Eph 1:11 -- that disincludes NOTHING...

Your or my abstanation from evil, only shall serve to bring to humility (and rightly so), to those who (in this life) do NOT abstain...

GOD decided who MOSES would be... and who HITLER would be bro...  So let us not "pat" MOSES on the back too excessively, nor "slam" HITLER in the same extreme... instead, within ourselves, let us be humble, and call for HIS mercy to be UPON ALL... and thereby agree with what Peter said:  2 Peter 3:9

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMWould you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

cp

God is NO RESPECTER of persons... which says to me, that no matter what I DO... NOTHING can be considered GOOD which has emerged from ME!  Only that which CHRIST has done IN ME, and that displays HIM in me, can be considered GOOD...  the "ME" that is ME, is dung... and is that which must be COMPLETELY ousted from the existence which is "me", and replaced with HIM...

He took upon Himself the SIN of the WORLD, ...If I consider that even ONE MOMENT of SIN which has occured IN ME in my life here on earth, was enough to KILL HIM... then how may I judge another "troubled" and likely less fortunate (according to His WILL), other?  :pitiful:  Such as a "rapist", or "Hitler" or my next door neighbor, or even, "Franklin Graham"?

For the pathway of "Hitler" was given to "Hitler" because GOD chose him to be "Hitler"... and the pathway of "willieH" was given to "willieH", because GOD chose me to be "willieH"... I could have been "Hitler"... so conclusively, I root for GOD's LONG and LOVING arms to reach "Hitler" ...that GOD's Holy "FAM" be completely COMPLETE...  :grouppray:

He chose the "SUM of ALL the PARTS" that ends up being "us" brother...  ALL the cards dealt to us, are dealt BY HIM, ...good or bad, large or small, rich or poor, bright or dark, ...to display and accomplish HIS PURPOSE for ALL... Which concludes in a GLORIOUS result for ALL, ...in HIM...  :grouppray:

I look upon myself, as WORTHY, simply because He LOVES and chooses to LIVE in me... but in the same instant, only THAT which is HIM, ...IN ME... IS the object of that transforming LOVE... and shall present only THANKFULLNESS to Him, along with the humility of myself, before His presence...  and before His wonderful and much appreciated, LOVE, of ME...

Peace bro... Hope I have answered your questions, cp...  :friendstu:

Good post, Willi.  cp really is asking some good questions and making some good points, isn't he?   :2thumbs:

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 08:39:20 PM
Ah Mol, I grew up in and around it.  Full of angry, judgmental, "wear dresses to a certain length, pile your long hair on your head in a bee-hive, don't wear make-up, don't own a TV, better not ever go to a movie, or a dance, or to major league baseball game, or say 'darn', or men's hair better not touch their collar, or women wear pants, or men shorts, or...."  Then look down on anyone not fitting that mold as "not saved, full of the devil, on your way to A DEVIL'S HA-EL!!!! 

Sure, I agree...if we all made better choices it would be a good thing...however, I believe God has certain purposes and plans, and He's choosing who He will to accomplish those ends...bigger than I can really comprehend, but that's how I see it  :icon_rr:.

Blessings, friend.

That sounds like a somewhat superficial vision of 'holiness.'  We know he means us to be free.  But, those who know they carry this treasure in earthen vessels have an innate dignity that does not need to be regulated.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

--2 Cor 4

 :cloud9: Just read your post WillieH.....a resounding  :thumbsup: I witness to being shown the same things......blessings to you......... :HeartThrob:

Quote from: peacemaker on June 07, 2009, 11:47:02 PM

Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2009, 08:25:21 PM
God's work through us...in those He chooses. 

To "Select" indicates that of a choice made based on fitness for the task at hand. And to appoint is synonymous with select, or chosen; elect.

peacemaker

(context, context, context ...)

"Every action, has an equal and opposite reaction."

If your last line is sarcasm, that's unfortunate, and IMO, is one reason there's so much confusion in the body.  If it's just to be obnoxious, you were successful. 

If both (and all) scriptures are "universally, primarily applicable" to just however we want to use them, then don't we have a contradiction in the two verses above?  I don't believe scripture contradicts itself when taken in proper context, is Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided.

IMO, It's not a mish-mash to pull out whatever isolated pieces we wish to make a point which we already believe.  I've done it a thousand times, by the way, but that doesn't make it helpful.

« Last Edit: Today at 05:00:58 PM by jabcat »   

It was not meant as a form of wit, ridicule, nor that of taunting. Rather, the whole of Scripture is taken into account, not just bits and pieces, as you rightly pointed out. And the confusion comes from one's understanding, not in the amount of verses that are, or aren't posted.

My apologies for being successfully, obnoxious.

The contradiction could only be in the timing, as the Book of Revelation is the Life of Christ. Yet, many are waiting for a future coming to take place, not one near or at hand.

peacemaker

Quote from: legoman on June 07, 2009, 09:01:26 PM
Ok just reading through this thread again and having some thoughts.  Need to jot this down and see what others think.

First: WOW.

- the day of the Lord is NOW - its this life?
- we are being judged NOW
- we are going through "eternal" (aionios) torment right NOW
- we don't have rest, day or night, right NOW (Rev 14:11)
- we (believers) are not hurt of the second death (lake of fire), but we still go through it?
- this is because we realize what is happening, we are all being judged now?
- it will only take a nanosecond for Hitler to realize He was wrong when He see's God?
- likewise for everyone else?
- revelations is, was, and will be, therefore the lake of fire is NOW..?
- WHEN were we thrown into the lake of fire?

Just some thoughts, some still questions, but I see possibilities.

Help!  And again: WOW. Legoman

:cloud9: Hi legoman.....I think Willie's got one of the best abilities to explain this, but I did want to add a few thoughts for you to further ponder here.

The NOW is not what we call the "present", as a linear delineation or measurement of time. It's literally IN HIM, that is Spirit, and this Spirit is the perfect (7 means perfect, holy, sanctified) DAY, by which Adam was to have lived, or gained life. This DAY is why it says that He will give us rest, because HE IS THE SABBATH, ie. 7th day.

So since there is no time in His Spirit, whenever He appeared, or appears, or will appear, in the "heavens" of the mind of Christ within men as revelation, then whenever and whatever time period that appearing took place, and for whoever it was He appeared to, THAT WAS THE "NOW".

This is why it says, NOW is the day of our salvation, ect. The "now" is the perception of His Spirit, as He reveals Himself to you, IN THAT MOMENT. This is the "times of refreshing" that should come, that was spoken of.

This is why it says He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, yet wisdom has obviously been revealed in stages. We are to ENTER into this rest, this 7th day, not just as we are entering it in natural chronological progression, but rather to enter into HIM, who IS the perfect DAY of the Lord, no part darkness. Which is why He said the prince of this world (number of man/all days leading up to 7) cometh, and he hath nothing IN ME.

The baptism into the Holy Ghost is what BEGINS this, as He is the DOOR into the heavenly realm. Hope I helped and didn't confuse......blessings.....

Quote from: CardinalSo since there is no time in His Spirit, whenever He appeared, or appears, or will appear, in the "heavens" of the mind of Christ within men as revelation, then whenever and whatever time period that appearing took place, and for whoever it was He appeared to, THAT WAS THE "NOW".

This is why it says, NOW is the day of our salvation, ect. The "now" is the perception of His Spirit, as He reveals Himself to you, IN THAT MOMENT. This is the "times of refreshing" that should come, that was spoken of.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Rev 22


"come," [Lord Jesus]

G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

 :cloud9: Thank You Lord, for Your servant, Molly.......good to see you back with us.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

PM, as you notice, I edited my post (then re-edited about 30 times) because initially I was annoyed.  There may have been a communication glitch, and there was too quick of an initial reaction on my part.  My apologies as well.  As I read and re-read your post and did the same to mine, I ended up with a version more along the lines of what I thought was best to say.  You quoted one of the earlier versions, and that's OK, I'm the one that put it there.  If there was anything to forgive, God has already helped me do that.  

I understand what you're saying about Revelation, I know there are a vast # of interpretations to it.  Again though, putting just those 2 scriptures together, without further exploration/revelation, IMO there may be broader contexts somewhere to consider, as I don't believe God's Word contradicts itself, and I doubt you do either.

So, since it's obviously not readily apparent to me, what is it that you're going after with this;  

To "Select" indicates that of a choice made based on fitness for the task at hand. And to appoint is synonymous with select, or chosen; elect.
peacemaker
(context, context, context ...)

You did make me think though (:thumbsup:) about the calling/choosing topic, thus this;  2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version)  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...  I've thought about it this afternoon, and if there's a different meaning or [larger] context that would change this verse, right now I don't see it. 

For those inclined:
Brother Preston recently posted
part 90 of his Revelation series
"From the Candlestick to the Throne"
www.kingdombiblestudies.org

Quote from: peacemaker on June 07, 2009, 08:27:32 AM


Jesus said, "I AM the RESURRECTION."

He declares that the hour is coming and "now is" when the dead shall hear His voice and live.

I show you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

We seem to be in a period of testing and trials to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom to act or make a decision. A period of probation; a time to be considerate or thoughtful by the Grace of God. And the right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.

But rest assured, He will rectify the misguided in due time.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

This is the state of one who has returned to life from the sting of death.


peacemaker

Hi PM

I was looking over your post that I have quoted and a verse came to mind

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Since we are obviously speaking of a mystery here IMO that is a spiritual headline telling us to dig deep on this passage.......... amen? ......... I think so

So what is the fulness of the Gentiles and the blindness of Israel in regards to one specific person

Could not the Israel in a Christian be that seed that is Christ that is still blind to the truth (from being fed lies in the beginning of our walk) and that part that is "Gentile" be the 'unbelieving spirit of the old man that they were first born with taking back over the body and until the "fulness of their sins" of the "old man" are fulfilled in their life? Then the Israel in them starts its journey out of blindness as the real truths start to become known by the individual versus the #$%^ that they were taught as young believers of Jesus?

Not sure if I was able to say that in a matter that could be understood but all Christians have two opposing spirits in them...... one they were first born with and the other that they were "born again" with when they first came to the Cross.

Maybe I should have started a different thread for this but I see a parallel between what you are saying and what I am trying to say.......... I see this in my own history of accepting Christ at a young age and then leaving God as a modern day prodigal son until I could not stand it anymore despite my success.......... and then as I returned the blindness started to be removed albeit gaining sight was very painful at times.

Comments or opinions?

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2009, 03:17:27 AM
You did make me think though :thumbsup: about the calling/choosing topic, thus this;  2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version)  But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...  I've thought about it this afternoon, and if there's a different meaning or [larger] context that would change this verse, right now I don't see it. 

Purifies the hearts of those who believe :gthumbsup:

Spiritual blessing, brother!

peacemaker

 :cloud9: I can see what you're saying Doug, as the carnal mind itself is a spirit; it's just one we're used to. So I too can see the "fractional" part; He's shown me "fractional" aspects of our being.

So in light of what you said, I can see "Israel" in us as the Seed of Christ in the heart of man, and everything that is not like Christ ("gentile" flesh), must be circumcised off His Spirit/Him. It's the circumcision of Abraham, in type. As I said before, I think we see the same things, we just have a different "language". Blessings....

Quote from: peacemaker on June 08, 2009, 04:43:24 AM
Spiritual blessing, brother!
peacemaker

Thank you.  You too!

Quote from: willieH on June 08, 2009, 12:20:15 AM
willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

As always you propose the thoughts of a curious and seeking mind!  :thumbsup:  :happyclap:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AM
Willie, You have helped with your words. I fully understand that God could have stopped Hitler anytime and the rapist and so forth. I understand too some of the responsibility of God in all things.

GOD is the Creator of ALL THINGS... and therefore RESPONSIBLE for (1) their existence (2) their positions in proximity to good and evil for (3) He is the emergent center of this knowledge (4) has FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things so NOTHING "surprises" Him (5) has a PURPOSE in which He uses ALL THINGS to bring them to their respective conclusions... and much more! 

Responsible?  I'd say the "buck" starts and ends with Him -- Rev 1:8 :yes:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI started asking my recent questions just to explain how hard it is for the average person today to understand, well, grace. Grace is amazing. It forgives and cleans up 'Hitler' as well as Mother Theresa. It just does.

But it is no wonder how people mostly can't understand this. I think this is mostly an American thing too although not limited to Americans. I mean we are taught that the bad guys got to pay the ultimate price for their badness while the good guys win out. It's hard to understand that good guys and bad guys just are and that's the way it is.

Let's try a hypothetical scenario... What if "Hitler" (who, btw was born to the FAMILY GOD chose, and WHEN God chose, and in the ERA -- GOD chose, and was placed amongst the environment GOD chose - ad infinitum)... were born as FRANKLIN GRAHAM instead of the fam & era he was BORN in, via GOD's choices...

Do you think he would've become the same VILE, and DESTRUCTIVE person he became? Under the tutiledge of Billy Graham?  Whatcha think?  :JCThink:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMSo Willie, are you thinking that people who enjoy doing evil and spend their days here on earth doing so.......do you think they eventually just go through the same process as you and I to be made in the image of God?

People who "enjoy" evil?  In observing (as a counsellor in a homeless shelter), many persons who, by their own bad decisions and involvements in evil, became "destroyed" as far as a HOME, and or NORMAL life might involve... almost to a person, noted very TROUBLED and ANXIETY ridden minds...

It is easy to observe a "serial killer", and deduce him as LESS than yourself... For he appears to "enjoy" his actions... however... deeper scrutiny upon such a mind (if in fact he/she is subdued by authorities), often reveals a VERY TROUBLED PATHWAY...

Let us take our "serial killer" and name his victims as WOMEN...

In other words Let's list some possible things which may have "occured" upon the "PATHWAY" to Serial Killing (without making excuse for that negative behavior),

This person might have been ...BEATEN in childhood by women (mother, sisters, neighborhood kids, etc),  ...REJECTED by them in adolsescence (turned down for dates, laughed upon at school dances, mocked by them for his "2nd hand clothing", etc),  ...FIRED in the workplace (by female supervisors, or maybe by false accusations made by female co-workers)...

NONE of these facts are known by YOU... only his "enjoyment" of evil, which is seen in his "Serial Killings"... 

My point is, that GOD only knows in many cases, the deep bruising and sorrow which we have, and MEN cannot see... Which is why He said NOT to JUDGE, and COMMANDED we FORGIVE enemies...  :dontknow:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMWillie you say the negativity we see in man is purposed. I imagine you mean purposed by God, correct?

I believe we walk in this life according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of our lives... and NOTHING of GOD is vain... however, ALL of this life -- that which MEN do (the entire CREATION)... has been SUBJECTED to VANITY -- BY Him... Rom 8:20-21

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI see some people who do evil as incapable of doing otherwise at least at the time they are doing it. Do you think a guy who can just up and kill another person almost just for the fun of it could do otherwise?

No... if it occurs, the act is DECLARED to be so... And I really don't think any killing is ever (foundationally done -- in the deepest portion of the offender)... for the "fun of it"...

If there were no such thing as DIRTY, how could we possibly know what CLEAN was?  God in WISDOM has created this scenario in which we live and die, to teach us the Universal applications and NECESSITY of OPPOSITES. 

In this, the GOOD that GOD IS -- to the "extreme", ...is being displayed by EVIL -- in the very SAME "extreme"...  :dontknow:  And "we" are the "players" in the "play"... :yes: ...WRITTEN by the Great PLAYWRITE... who's NAME is LOVE!  :myahoo:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMDo we all kill others like Jesus said when He spoke about us being angry with another is like murder? So are the rapists and killers that abound in the physical just like us who do it in the realm of the mind?

JESUS noted that the things which occur in the mind, are the very same as carrying out that "thought" in the Physical...  If I call you a name in thought, and don't do so in the physical... am I, because I didn't AUDIBLIZE my thought, still a "good guy"  Or are you silently DECIEVED by my REAL thoughts of you?  You are oblivious of my corrupted character concerning you... but inside, ...I am the same BUM that I would be considered by such derrogatory condescension, even though I didn't make YOU aware of it...  :sigh:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMI will probably never kill another human and will probably always see it as wrong while another will do the deed without hardly a thought. Is this just how we are made? I have my reasons for not killing or raping in the physical. I seem to be guided by an inner make up that makes certain things very unappealing to me yet others have not this make up in them so they can do things I would never do.

Many are called, FEW are chosen, cp... You are ORDAINED to walk in GOOD WORKS, if indeed you WALK in them - eh?  Eph 2:10

By the same token... another is NOT chosen to "walk in them"... and consequently, we have killers and rapists amongst us... which were KNOWN, before they were BORN, and have "walked" otherwise, yet were BORN nevertheless!  :dontknow:

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMSo Willie, would you say a rapist, because of his make up will rape while you or I probably won't ever rape because stuff in our make up will keep us from such a deed?

There is not ONE speck of dust upon the earth, that does not have a particular place in the wisdom and power of GOD... HE works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... Eph 1:11 -- that disincludes NOTHING...

Your or my abstanation from evil, only shall serve to bring to humility (and rightly so), to those who (in this life) do NOT abstain...

GOD decided who MOSES would be... and who HITLER would be bro...  So let us not "pat" MOSES on the back too excessively, nor "slam" HITLER in the same extreme... instead, within ourselves, let us be humble, and call for HIS mercy to be UPON ALL... and thereby agree with what Peter said:  2 Peter 3:9

Quote from: claypot on June 07, 2009, 02:33:32 AMWould you say that a person who rapes or murders is really no better or worse than anybody else in God's eyes?

cp

God is NO RESPECTER of persons... which says to me, that no matter what I DO... NOTHING can be considered GOOD which has emerged from ME!  Only that which CHRIST has done IN ME, and that displays HIM in me, can be considered GOOD...  the "ME" that is ME, is dung... and is that which must be COMPLETELY ousted from the existence which is "me", and replaced with HIM...

He took upon Himself the SIN of the WORLD, ...If I consider that even ONE MOMENT of SIN which has occured IN ME in my life here on earth, was enough to KILL HIM... then how may I judge another "troubled" and likely less fortunate (according to His WILL), other?  :pitiful:  Such as a "rapist", or "Hitler" or my next door neighbor, or even, "Franklin Graham"?

For the pathway of "Hitler" was given to "Hitler" because GOD chose him to be "Hitler"... and the pathway of "willieH" was given to "willieH", because GOD chose me to be "willieH"... I could have been "Hitler"... so conclusively, I root for GOD's LONG and LOVING arms to reach "Hitler" ...that GOD's Holy "FAM" be completely COMPLETE...  :grouppray:

He chose the "SUM of ALL the PARTS" that ends up being "us" brother...  ALL the cards dealt to us, are dealt BY HIM, ...good or bad, large or small, rich or poor, bright or dark, ...to display and accomplish HIS PURPOSE for ALL... Which concludes in a GLORIOUS result for ALL, ...in HIM...  :grouppray:

I look upon myself, as WORTHY, simply because He LOVES and chooses to LIVE in me... but in the same instant, only THAT which is HIM, ...IN ME... IS the object of that transforming LOVE... and shall present only THANKFULLNESS to Him, along with the humility of myself, before His presence...  and before His wonderful and much appreciated, LOVE, of ME...

Peace bro... Hope I have answered your questions, cp...  :friendstu:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Willie, again thanks for your well thought out response. Much to ponder as usual.

Again I want to say that I started thinking about these things when I tried to see it like 'people who don't think about these things like we do', do. You got to agree that Jesus and His Father are the best 'riddle' creators around. I mean Jesus could have said what He and His Father were up to in a much simpler way but He chose not to. He could have summed up the whole story and plan in a few words. He knew that the more words He used the more confusing His message would be to us.

You are making me see more clearly though, that Hitler, me, you, satan, Jesus, Mother Theresa, the rapists, the heroes, are all part of one big plan. I also see all people as one unit as well as individuals. Much like I see I have individual cells that make me, me yet I see these cells as one unit too. I see 'Hitler' in me, I see 'Mother Theresa' in me. I cannot seperate my self from all other humans. As in Adam all.................

Thanks again Willie and just know I will be pestering you again soon!

cp

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

--Gen 4



It seems as if God gives Cain two choices here:

1)Do the right thing and be accepted, or

2)Give sin access to you by not doing well and rule over it.



It also seems as if Cain picks a third choice, leading to his removal from the presence of God--



What hast thou done?

--Gen 4

willieH: Hi Molly! :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on June 08, 2009, 10:11:32 PM
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

--Gen 4

It seems as if God gives Cain two choices here:

1)Do the right thing and be accepted, or

2)Give sin access to you by not doing well and rule over it.

It also seems as if Cain picks a third choice, leading to his removal from the presence of God--

What hast thou done?

--Gen 4

CAIN does "choose" but his "choice" no matter what, is according to what had already BEEN DECLARED by GOD about that "choice", and in HIS CASE... What was also WRITTEN of that "choice" -- Gen 4

Cain's "choice" did not dictate to the WORD what the WORD would BE... the WORD dictated to Cain's "choice", what the CHOICE would BE...

That it is WRITTEN that he "chose" to do other than he was instructed, was already established... by the WORD of GOD, which does not require TIME or its manifestations in order to BE... PRIOR to the "choice" that was made by Cain, ...eventually being made...

Even though all "choices" of men are not WRITTEN in Scripture, they are all FOREKNOWN by GOD, and thereby the "choices" we make, ...cannot occur alternative to the INDICATIONS of His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of them... and are in fact made, ...occuring according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of them, to the letter...

The ONLY POWER that IS, ...is that of GOD -- Rom 13:1

The "Jacob & Esau" notation by Paul in Rom 9:11 -- is the best Scriptural (IMO) notation of this process...  Men "think" they have power, but in the end, ALL POWER is of GOD... and,

ALL CHOICES that men make, are according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of them, ...NOT... the other way around (which supposes that: God's "foreknowledge" is according to and dictated by the choices of men).

Hi WillieH,

Nice to see you back and going strong.

I don't know--I think if God gives a choice, then it should be strongly considered, and the choice given to Cain is one given to us, as well.  But, I'm even trying to understand the choice he gave Cain--it seems like he is saying--offer up the right sacrifice (the firstborn lamb) or learn how to master sin yourself.

So I'm trying to understand what is being said there--because it seems that if you offer the proper offering in the first place (Christ), then you don't have to master sin because sin won't even be given a foothold.  That seems a lot easier than giving sin an opening and then trying to master sin on your own.

But, Cain did neither--he just gave in to sin and killed his brother.


Interestingly, Jesus is the only one I can think of who  mastered sin himself.


8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

--Heb 5

 :cloud9: Hi, Molly.......two offerings contrasted; one with blood (lamb) and one without (from the "fruit" of the ground). Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on June 09, 2009, 03:20:15 AM
:cloud9: Hi, Molly.......two offerings contrasted; one with blood (lamb) and one without (from the "fruit" of the ground). Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. Blessings....

Yes, and remission can mean more than just pardon or forgiveness--

"remission" [of sin]

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.


So, Cain's second option [mastery over sin] also seems impossible without the blood [of Christ]...?

But, he rejects what is offered to him.

I keep thinking I'm missing something in this story--because [the righteous] Abel is a type of Christ, but the blood of Christ speaks better things than that of Abel--is Cain trying somehow to cover his sin with the blood of his righteous brother?

The blood of abel is earthly and cries for revenge

The Blood of Christ is heavenly and cries "you are forgiven ....... go and sin no more"

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Livelystone on June 08, 2009, 04:34:13 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on June 07, 2009, 08:27:32 AM

Jesus said, "I AM the RESURRECTION."

He declares that the hour is coming and "now is" when the dead shall hear His voice and live.

I show you a mystery; We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

We seem to be in a period of testing and trials to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom to act or make a decision. A period of probation; a time to be considerate or thoughtful by the Grace of God. And the right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.

But rest assured, He will rectify the misguided in due time.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

This is the state of one who has returned to life from the sting of death.

I was looking over your post that I have quoted and a verse came to mind

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Since we are obviously speaking of a mystery here IMO that is a spiritual headline telling us to dig deep on this passage.......... amen? ......... I think so

So what is the fulness of the Gentiles and the blindness of Israel in regards to one specific person

Could not the Israel in a Christian be that seed that is Christ that is still blind to the truth (from being fed lies in the beginning of our walk) and that part that is "Gentile" be the 'unbelieving spirit of the old man that they were first born with taking back over the body and until the "fulness of their sins" of the "old man" are fulfilled in their life? Then the Israel in them starts its journey out of blindness as the real truths start to become known by the individual versus the #$%^ that they were taught as young believers of Jesus?

Not sure if I was able to say that in a matter that could be understood but all Christians have two opposing spirits in them...... one they were first born with and the other that they were "born again" with when they first came to the Cross.

Maybe I should have started a different thread for this but I see a parallel between what you are saying and what I am trying to say.......... I see this in my own history of accepting Christ at a young age and then leaving God as a modern day prodigal son until I could not stand it anymore despite my success.......... and then as I returned the blindness started to be removed albeit gaining sight was very painful at times.

Comments or opinions?

Here is a comment, or thought for the moment (as my daughter was in an accident, and I haven't much time, but she is doing fine!)

How were we born?
Having two natures, two lives ... twins in the womb?

Where do we live?
Behold, I tell you a mystery, We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed  ... in the dead sea of humanity,
until the times of the flesh be fulfilled?

What is the most significant, Gentile nation of the Bible?
If gentile equates to the nations, and is a reference to the flesh ... people of the flesh?

Two natures beat within my breast; one is foul, the other blest.
The one I love, the one I hate; the one I FEED will dominate.

Man is a twofold creature; both physical and spiritual.

peacemaker

Quote from: Livelystone on June 09, 2009, 05:22:25 AM
The blood of abel is earthly and cries for revenge

The Blood of Christ is heavenly and cries "you are forgiven ....... go and sin no more"

Blessings

Doug

So Abel represents the righteousness of the law [an eye for an eye]?  And Christ the righteousness of grace?

The law cannot cover;  it can only condemn.


... the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

--Gen 4

an eye for an eye meant that you had to pay for the value of the lost eye.............not give up your own eye

PM You wrote....

How were we born?
Having two natures, two lives ... twins in the womb?

Spiritually speaking, Jacob and Esau tells the whole story. Not just 2 fun lovin guys from the Old Testament, but I think they are our 2 natures. Same with the vessels of honor and dishonor. Ain't just talking about God making stuff for His kitchen!

Your words got me thinking, thanks.

cp

1 John 2:4

4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.





14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

--Rev 22

Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2009, 05:52:57 PM
1 John 2:4

4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.





14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

--Rev 22

Just one of the many proofs that I'm not "Born Again" today. If I were, I'd have the law written in my heart, and I would do it perfectly. (Jer. 31)

willieH: Hi sisters Rebecca! :hithere: and Molly! :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on June 09, 2009, 03:20:15 AM
:cloud9: Hi, Molly.......two offerings contrasted; one with blood (lamb) and one without (from the "fruit" of the ground). Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. Blessings....

Exactly... and one could not be REVEALED without the other to contrast it BY the actual displays of BOTH...

GOD has willed CONTRAST be the vision of reality. 

We know INSIDE by OUTSIDE, ...we know UP according to DOWN, ...we know ROUGH by the existence of SMOOTH... and so, ...on and on ever goes the DISPLAY...  :dontknow:

It just so happens that GOD is displaying to ALL via using some -- ordaining them to walk in GOOD WORKS -- Eph 2:10 -- and others NOT -- Rom 9:18

We are indeed "choosing", but it is all according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, ...GOD's foreknowledge is NOT comprised of OUR CHOOSING, ...our CHOOSING is comprised of HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE...  :winkgrin:

We really have no "will" of our own... "Our will" is on exhibit to display that which is CONTRARY to His... Once this is seen in DIVINELY ordained sufficient quantities... this adversity shall CEASE... and ALL things will be done according to HIS WILL which is RIGHTEOUSNESS -- forever.

Quote from: willieH on June 09, 2009, 11:39:16 PM
willieH: Hi sisters Rebecca! :hithere: and Molly! :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on June 09, 2009, 03:20:15 AM
:cloud9: Hi, Molly.......two offerings contrasted; one with blood (lamb) and one without (from the "fruit" of the ground). Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. Blessings....

Exactly... and one could not be REVEALED without the other to contrast it BY the actual displays of BOTH...

GOD has willed CONTRAST be the vision of reality. 

We know INSIDE by OUTSIDE, ...we know UP according to DOWN, ...we know ROUGH by the existence of SMOOTH... and so, ...on and on ever goes the DISPLAY...  :dontknow:

It just so happens that GOD is displaying to ALL via using some -- ordaining them to walk in GOOD WORKS -- Eph 2:10 -- and others NOT -- Rom 9:18

We are indeed "choosing", but it is all according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, ...GOD's foreknowledge is NOT comprised of OUR CHOOSING, ...our CHOOSING is comprised of HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE...  :winkgrin:

We really have no "will" of our own... "Our will" is on exhibit to display that which is CONTRARY to His... Once this is seen in DIVINELY ordained sufficient quantities... this adversity shall CEASE... and ALL things will be done according to HIS WILL which is RIGHTEOUSNESS -- forever.

...willieH  :icon_jokercolor:

Yeah, I can see that, Willie. We have choices in much the same way a computer does. The computer makes "decisions" about what it's presented with, but doesn't ultimately control the choices, the programming does. So the choices are preprogrammed decisions within a limited framework of available choices controlled and driven by the program, which has been pre-set.

Quote from: willieH on June 09, 2009, 11:39:16 PM
willieH: Hi sisters Rebecca! :hithere: and Molly! :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on June 09, 2009, 03:20:15 AM
:cloud9: Hi, Molly.......two offerings contrasted; one with blood (lamb) and one without (from the "fruit" of the ground). Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. Blessings....

Exactly... and one could not be REVEALED without the other to contrast it BY the actual displays of BOTH...

GOD has willed CONTRAST be the vision of reality. 

We know INSIDE by OUTSIDE, ...we know UP according to DOWN, ...we know ROUGH by the existence of SMOOTH... and so, ...on and on ever goes the DISPLAY...  :dontknow:

It just so happens that GOD is displaying to ALL via using some -- ordaining them to walk in GOOD WORKS -- Eph 2:10 -- and others NOT -- Rom 9:18

We are indeed "choosing", but it is all according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, ...GOD's foreknowledge is NOT comprised of OUR CHOOSING, ...our CHOOSING is comprised of HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE...  :winkgrin:

We really have no "will" of our own... "Our will" is on exhibit to display that which is CONTRARY to His... Once this is seen in DIVINELY ordained sufficient quantities... this adversity shall CEASE... and ALL things will be done according to HIS WILL which is RIGHTEOUSNESS -- forever.

...willieH  :icon_jokercolor:

I understand the yin and yang idea and I see it is so for the most part.

Would I know cold if I did not know hot? I could still be cold and not know hot couldn't I?

Could we know good without knowing evil? I would think so, couldn't we?

Hmmmmmmmmm.

God has got to be one very tough Being to put us through so much and to even go through so much Himself.

Willie, not to get into a big 'what about evil' debate, but I want to ask about it. I mean God foreknew some little girl would get raped or some guy would get tortured beyond human comprehension yet He lets it happen. That takes a tough Being to do that.

If I created something knowing it would go through something very very horrible, I would re-think creating it.

Yes, I am not God but..............................

cp

Hi cp,


I think the answer to God foreknowing the little girl getting raped is in what is often explained and people answer the reality without knowing it and usually not even believing it.

If Hot "MUST" be complimented by Cold is that by Gods design or is it a law of existance.

For instance, would it not be greater that God taught us good without having to experience the bad, to say it is impossible is to suggest that God cannot do absolutely anything and if he can do absolutely anything then surely a loving God would not find it necessary to subject us to all of this.

My belief is that God takes responsibility for it all because perhaps (and I believe very strongly this way) God chose to create us knowing there is only one realm to perfection even if there are countless variations from start to finish.  God cannot change the reality of what must be.  Some object since that would appear to make God weak, yet scripture verifies that the stupidity and weakness of God is still greater.

Knowing the little girl getting raped would then be painful to a loving God but his foreknowledge understands the gift at the end that will make it right.   It is not God who declared by his will that a little girl got raped, it is God who declared our creation knowing it would happen, but knowing that our perfection was not foiled by someone comitting such an act as it was planned for.


We have our own children knowing in advance that they will find adversity on this earth, and we cannot readily see the end, God knowing this same reality but can see the end is fully righteous in doing so in that light of truth.

willieH: Hi cp!   :happygrin:

Quote from: claypot on June 10, 2009, 12:56:12 AM
I understand the yin and yang idea and I see it is so for the most part.

Would I know cold if I did not know hot? I could still be cold and not know hot couldn't I?

Could we know good without knowing evil? I would think so, couldn't we?

If we COULD know GOOD without "knowing evil"... why are the KNOWLEDGE of BOTH found to be ROOTED in the SAME TREE cp?

We could benefit by the presence of GOOD, but as far as KNOWING what it IS... we can only find it through the KNOWLEDGE of both...

If every GIRL was a PRETTY GIRL, how would you KNOW they were pretty?  You would benefit by their beauty as being "easy on your eyes"... but in the end WITHOUT a comparison to their appearance, their beauty is COMMON and without any particular SPECIALNESS, ...no different or elevated or special (for beauty is an ELEVATION from UGLY),  then one NAIL is from another NAIL...

If everyone were NICE, how would you KNOW they were NICE?  For NICE would be unopposed... and therefore as common as 2 grains of sand are to one another... no more, no less, without significance...

Quote from: claypot on June 10, 2009, 12:56:12 AMHmmmmmmmmm.

God has got to be one very tough Being to put us through so much and to even go through so much Himself.

Amen!  :cloud9:  I completely agree!  :happygrin:

Quote from: claypot on June 10, 2009, 12:56:12 AMWillie, not to get into a big 'what about evil' debate, but I want to ask about it. I mean God foreknew some little girl would get raped or some guy would get tortured beyond human comprehension yet He lets it happen. That takes a tough Being to do that.

Again bro... I have to refer to HIS WORD to answer -- Rom 9:18 -- therefore hath He mercy upon whom HE WILL... and whom HE WILL, ...HE... Hardeneth...

Did He have "MERCY" upon the victim?  Did He have MERCY upon the "assailant"?

Was He present for the act?  Did He ACT to stop it? (mercy)

I must deduce that ACTS of GOD are His business, and do not reflect upon Him as UNMERCIFUL or unfairly "HARDENING" according to MY FINITE and LIMITED vision of them...

Quote from: claypot on June 10, 2009, 12:56:12 AMIf I created something knowing it would go through something very very horrible, I would re-think creating it.

Many have died in Tsumami's, Volcanic erruptions, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, etc... is GOD therefore UNMERCIFUL?  Because you have determined that His method is other than YOU might employ as "creator"...

Now you are suggesting things from a FINITE position which objects to the HARSHNESS of LEARNING by actual example...  You note that your "arm"  got "burned" in a fire, and if it were up to you, you would not have created FIRE... or you would not have created your "arm" as a burnable substance... but what has been learned about FIRE if your method is applied to creation?

Is FIRE still created?  Do you have little regard for it because it cannot burn you?  How about Water... Water can DROWN you... will you re-think creating it because it can drown you, even though it is beneficial to you in so many ways as to propose a never-ending list?

We cannot see the REASONS for ALL things... we are FINITE... bound by many limitations... He on the other hand is UNBOUND by anything!  That CHRIST died on a cross to redeem us all, was NOT an easy thing... but do we OBJECT to this?

GOD chose this from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, before a man had even taken a breath... So shall we "backtrack" and then question this from the "get-go"?

He not only KNEW that CHRIST would die on a cross... but as the DECIDING entity, CHOSE this as the way it would be done...

Do WE, as finites, question this?  Think about it bro... we see a few miles into the horizon, ...GOD sees the WHOLE EARTH at once...

I think instead of deciding His method as questionable, it is better to question ourselves and our understanding (or lack thereof)...


I am not God either cp... but this I KNOW... If it exists, and occurs... GOD being ALMIGHTY -- is purposing that existence for the resultant BENEFIT of ALL... and the final RESULT of the existence of ALL THINGS, shall serve to GLORIFY Him in the WISDOM that He applied in CREATING them...

Ps 104:24 -- O YHVH, how manifold are Thy works!  ...IN WISDOM has Thou MADE THEM ALL; the earth is full of Thy riches

CREATION is a WORK of GOD... for He, via HIS WORD - is the Creator -- John 1:3

GOD created HITLER (and/or the rapist)... the Scripture above notes that GOD created all things IN WISDOM... so there must be a veil upon us that we cannot see the WISDOM found in His CREATION of HITLER (and/or the rapist)...

The only other option is that it was NOT WISE for Him to create HITLER... and we (or at least, I) ...cannot even go there... :mnah:

Good post Willie. I posted a topic a couple days ago about the struggles we have with the way God did things in the old testament (murders, wiping out cities, etc). His purpose and wisdom AND MERCY Are in all his plans and on all that are in them. It is beyond are comprehension at times, but through the Spirit they are there.

Grace and Peace,

Brandon

Willie, Paul and Others, I hear ya. I do and I thank you for taking the time to bolster my faith in Him again.

God is, life is, period. God is the All. He is so all must be good, at least ultimately.

Paul, that thought about us having kids knowing the crap they will go through got through to me. So true. I have used like reasoning with some of my friends who believe in eternal torment. I ask them why they would want to bring kids into the world knowing there is a chance, a very good one, that their kids may be tormented forever. Blank stares..............you know the rest.

Willie I so hear ya. This is an extremely harsh reality for us yet God is no wimp. The outright blackness and horrible evils that abound are part of the ultimate good God is giving to us. It's just harsh reality, that's all. Very harsh, yet with a very, very good ending.

cp

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on June 10, 2009, 04:41:22 AM
Willie, Paul and Others, I hear ya. I do and I thank you for taking the time to bolster my faith in Him again.

God is, life is, period. God is the All. He is so all must be good, at least ultimately.

Paul, that thought about us having kids knowing the crap they will go through got through to me. So true. I have used like reasoning with some of my friends who believe in eternal torment. I ask them why they would want to bring kids into the world knowing there is a chance, a very good one, that their kids may be tormented forever. Blank stares..............you know the rest.

Willie I so hear ya. This is an extremely harsh reality for us yet God is no wimp. The outright blackness and horrible evils that abound are part of the ultimate good God is giving to us. It's just harsh reality, that's all. Very harsh, yet with a very, very good ending.

cp

Amen bro... Paul noted that -- Rom 8:18 -- the sufferings of THIS PRESENT TIME are NOT WORTHY to be compared with the GLORY that shall be REVEALED in us...

Part of the "completing" or "perfecting" process includes SUFFERING -- Heb 2:10

I hear ya Willie.

God has not been shy about telling how much we will suffer.

It is just so contrary to my mind (even my spiritual mind?) that someone (Someone) could think up such a harsh plan, a plan that includes so much suffering, death and pain.

But here it is so I will buck up and take and even say.....Bring it on!!!! Glory be to God!!!

cp

I can't go into it now 'cause I gotta go...but,

While there are similarities, duality and polarity are not the same. Polarity exists as opposing ends of the same thing.  Positive and negative are both electrical values.  Beauty and ugly are appearance values. The knowledge of good and evil are on one tree.  The good end of the stick will beat you to death just as surely as the evil will.  In seeking to not eat of that fruit I sought the other tree, the tree of life.  Good and evil have a duality about them.  Life is just one thing, a singularity.  I sought to conform my thinking to this revelation and refused all duality, seeking unity in polarity and pursuing "one-ing" thoughts.  The purpose of God is to bring all into one and re-head it with Christ is something that is being brought about now.  It means the Holy Spirit is "one-ing," and His being manifest in us is even more directly and abundantly working this "bringing all into one" in us and through us.  But He revealed to me there is a realm beyond these two trees which only represent the closest of the created realm to God. His lovingkindness is  better than life.  Between the two Cherubim is the Shekinah.  Shekinah is feminine and can be called the consort of God; but, that actually is a lowered and divided conceptualization unlike the reality toward which it refers.  It is His glory.

(Does anybody know what this has to do with "The Millennium?")

Quote from: reFORMer on June 11, 2009, 01:40:35 AM
The good end of the stick will beat you to death just as surely as the evil will. 

:cloud9: Not many have seen this, but OHHHHHH, what a truth is contained in that sentence. Blessings....

Quote from: ReformerBut He revealed to me there is a realm beyond these two trees which only represent the closest of the created realm to God. His lovingkindness is  better than life.  Between the two Cherubim is the Shekinah.  Shekinah is feminine and can be called the consort of God; but, that actually is a lowered and divided conceptualization unlike the reality toward which it refers.  It is His glory.

11Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

--Deut 12:11


Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12



3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 10, 2009, 01:18:31 AM


Hi cp,


I think the answer to God foreknowing the little girl getting raped is in what is often explained and people answer the reality without knowing it and usually not even believing it.

If Hot "MUST" be complimented by Cold is that by Gods design or is it a law of existance.

For instance, would it not be greater that God taught us good without having to experience the bad, to say it is impossible is to suggest that God cannot do absolutely anything and if he can do absolutely anything then surely a loving God would not find it necessary to subject us to all of this.

My belief is that God takes responsibility for it all because perhaps (and I believe very strongly this way) God chose to create us knowing there is only one realm to perfection even if there are countless variations from start to finish.  God cannot change the reality of what must be.  Some object since that would appear to make God weak, yet scripture verifies that the stupidity and weakness of God is still greater.

Knowing the little girl getting raped would then be painful to a loving God but his foreknowledge understands the gift at the end that will make it right.   It is not God who declared by his will that a little girl got raped, it is God who declared our creation knowing it would happen, but knowing that our perfection was not foiled by someone comitting such an act as it was planned for.


We have our own children knowing in advance that they will find adversity on this earth, and we cannot readily see the end, God knowing this same reality but can see the end is fully righteous in doing so in that light of truth.

Hey Paul, bottom line for me is that God knew about the rapes and horrible evils and He still went ahead with His creation and plan. That takes one tough Being. God is awesomely tough. His toughness towards evil, His allowance of evil, His insistance on evil makes the actions and decisions of a 'Hitler' seem small by comparison, doesn't it?

I do think it had to be this way for God to get exactly what He wanted in us. God would not cause one tiny evil to occur unless it serves a very good purpose but it is just so harsh! I mean to make us so sensitive to pain of all kinds and then to allow us to be subjected to such pains to the fullest degree we can handle (some of us anyway), this takes a Being far beyond my comprehension, which of course God is and always will be. In my limited understandings and thought processes I could never see myself coming up with such a plan, much less bringing it to reality, but that's just me, I'm not God. He is way beyond us in wisdom.

cp

God has left the planet.

He's left things in our hands--it's up to us, now.

He walks on this earth only as well as we carry him within our earthen vessels.

If there is evil, crush it with good.

If there is a wrong, make it right.

All of creation is waiting for us to be born from above.

All of creation is waiting for His nation of priests to be manifested on earth.

Pray ceaselessly in all things.

This is where the rubber meets the road.



19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

--Rom 8

The extent to which God is manifested in the exterior physical realm is fully in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.  He is the Seed Who laid down His life and was raised from death immortal, incorruptible and ascended into the right of the Father Who is central to all.  From thence He is sent forth as Spirit into many vessels.  The union of our spirits with the Holy Spirit must find expression within the vessels.  It is an inward work.  The adjusting of the thought, will and emotion of His many members to agree with the Father's will accelerates the more we approach the consumation, an end that is the beginning of a new day, the salvation of our souls.  The light within rises upon us.  The veil, inwrought with cherubim, is His flesh in the earth of which we are members.  The cherubim exercise cuttings, burnings and lights in any direction in all realms that prevent access of the flesh to the tree of life.   This emerging in the earth of the realm that is God wherein He holds sway (the kingdom of the heavens) is well advanced in the holy ones after His kind.  We saw this mountain "filled all the earth."  "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 25:7-8, AV)

Quote from: reFORMer on June 11, 2009, 06:58:54 PM
The light within rises upon us.  The veil, inwrought with cherubim, is His flesh in the earth of which we are members.  The cherubim exercise burnings and lights in any direction in all realms that prevent access of the flesh to the tree of life.   

:cloud9: Amen to all, but wanted to comment on this.......the cherubim are the angels (messeges or messengers with messeges) of light that were woven into the veil of His celestial flesh within, ensuing that no man could come to the Father (thru ANY doctrine), but only thru the Father calling Him.

This puts things back where they belong in order, ie. squarely a sovereign work of the Father, so that NO man can boast of having done it, because we do not know which of the doctrines we hold are "cherubim proof" without His revelation thru the Spirit of Truth, in accordance of His election and grace.

This is designed to put us on our faces, crying out for mercy. Blessings....

Quote from: reFORMer on June 11, 2009, 06:58:54 PM
The extent to which God is manifested in the exterior physical realm is fully in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.  He is the Seed Who laid down His life and was raised from death immortal, incorruptible and ascended into the right of the Father Who is central to all.  From thence He is sent forth as Spirit into many vessels.  The union of our spirits with the Holy Spirit must find expression within the vessels.  It is an inward work.  The adjusting of the thought, will and emotion of His many members to agree with the Father's will accelerates the more we approach the consumation, an end that is the beginning of a new day, the salvation of our souls.  The light within rises upon us.  The veil, inwrought with cherubim, is His flesh in the earth of which we are members.  The cherubim exercise burnings and lights in any direction in all realms that prevent access of the flesh to the tree of life.   This emerging in the earth of the realm that is God wherein He holds sway (the kingdom of the heavens) is well advanced in the holy ones after His kind.  We saw this mountain "filled all the earth."  "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 25:7-8, AV)

Jesus, the Christ lights every man that comes into the world. Amen.

cp

Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2009, 05:48:22 PM
God has left the planet.

He's left things in our hands--it's up to us, now.

He walks on this earth only as well as we carry him within our earthen vessels.

If there is evil, crush it with good.

If there is a wrong, make it right.

All of creation is waiting for us to be born from above.

All of creation is waiting for His nation of priests to be manifested on earth.

Pray ceaselessly in all things.

This is where the rubber meets the road.



19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

--Rom 8

God may have left the planet in some ways of viewing it I suppose, Molly, but the planet has never left God.

All of creation is waiting for us to be born from above but if God has left then who is doing the 'seeding'?

cp

Quote from: CPAll of creation is waiting for us to be born from above but if God has left then who is doing the 'seeding'?

We are.



3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. .

--Mat 13





Luke 8:11

11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

God is in all things,  he has not left,  do not allow false interpretations make it appear that we are to consider such deception.

What the physical appears to be is the enemy making it seem like that there is hopelessness abounding.   Do not let people who spread such falseness influence us to see anything but the truth of reconciliation that is to come to pass.

This does not mean sit back and do nothing it means live and enjoy life in abundance, do what you are able, share life with people so that your life becomes a greater aspect of someone elses.   DOOM sayers as much scripture as they might have are nothing more than spiritual infections.  They serve a purpose too, to help us see the greater life.  They will also be reconciled despite their doctrines of pain.

willieH: Hi brother cp... :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on June 11, 2009, 12:47:37 AM
I hear ya Willie.

God has not been shy about telling how much we will suffer.

It is just so contrary to my mind (even my spiritual mind?) that someone (Someone) could think up such a harsh plan, a plan that includes so much suffering, death and pain.

But here it is so I will buck up and take and even say.....Bring it on!!!! Glory be to God!!!

cp

That we cannot "see" the purpose in the "harshness" or "sufferings", only serves to separate Him as the ALMIGHTY  OMNISCIENT Creator (knowing all)... and we as the "created" and extremely DUMB SHEEP (not knowing much)!  :laughing7:

When it comes down to it... a Chevy CORVETTE doesn't "know" a whole lot, about its "creation process" either!  :laughhand: (sorry for the weak analogy, but in the end our lack by comparison to GOD, is FAR greater!)

But, irregardless of its lack of "awareness", it turns out, through a long and CAREFULLY planned process, to be one heck of a beautiful and extremely efficient machine!

As Card wisely notes... we are ALL veiled to one degree or another, by the interweaving of the Cherubim into our "understandings" -- specifically so NONE of us ...can "boast"  :dontknow:

So IN that humility, do we all "float" in the same "boat"...  :blush:

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

--Gen 2



"to dress" [it]

H5647
עבד
‛âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: -  X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.



"to keep"[it]

H8104
שׁמר
shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).





John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Quote from: claypot on June 11, 2009, 05:31:52 PM
I do think it had to be this way for God to get exactly what He wanted in us.

Thats a hurdle our minds must get over, to see reality as it is.   If we can see the spiritual nature of what you state here you will see that if God indeed could perfect us another way, he would do it, he would. 

It is not me being so bold as to question the way God has "done" things it is to see that he is "wise" knowing he could create us and during the process that "must" be, we all MAKE IT.

:cloud9:

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2009, 05:48:22 PM
God has left the planet.

He's left things in our hands--it's up to us, now.

He walks on this earth only as well as we carry him within our earthen vessels.

If there is evil, crush it with good.

If there is a wrong, make it right.

All of creation is waiting for us to be born from above.

All of creation is waiting for His nation of priests to be manifested on earth.

Pray ceaselessly in all things.

This is where the rubber meets the road.

Maybe you didn't intend it but,

This post makes it appear that you see this as "US" working and not CHRIST, ...IN US...  :dontknow:  And if it be HIM, ...IN US... then it is NOT we that work...

How can "his priests" be "MANIFEST", without Him "MANIFESTING" them?

If we are doing the "WORK", then we have not entered into HIS REST...  :dontknow:

Again, I re-iterate, ...how can He have LEFT, Molly?  When He said He would BE WITH us unto the end? -- Matt 28:20

And that He would NEVER LEAVE us or forsake us? -- Heb 13:5

That's not what I said or intended to say, Willie.

But I think it is important to identify who we really are--


Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


So that this will be fulfilled--

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.


"the salvation" [of our God]

H3444
ישׁוּעה
Y'shû‛âh

Quote from: willieH on June 11, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
willieH: Hi brother cp... :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on June 11, 2009, 12:47:37 AM
I hear ya Willie.

God has not been shy about telling how much we will suffer.

It is just so contrary to my mind (even my spiritual mind?) that someone (Someone) could think up such a harsh plan, a plan that includes so much suffering, death and pain.

But here it is so I will buck up and take and even say.....Bring it on!!!! Glory be to God!!!

cp

That we cannot "see" the purpose in the "harshness" or "sufferings", only serves to separate Him as the ALMIGHTY  OMNISCIENT Creator (knowing all)... and we as the "created" and extremely DUMB SHEEP (not knowing much)!  :laughing7:

When it comes down to it... a Chevy CORVETTE doesn't "know" a whole lot, about its "creation process" either!  :laughhand: (sorry for the weak analogy, but in the end our lack by comparison to GOD, is FAR greater!)

But, irregardless of its lack of "awareness", it turns out, through a long and CAREFULLY planned process, to be one heck of a beautiful and extremely efficient machine!

As Card wisely notes... we are ALL veiled to one degree or another, by the interweaving of the Cherubim into our "understandings" -- specifically so NONE of us ...can "boast"  :dontknow:

So IN that humility, do we all "float" in the same "boat"...  :blush:

...willieH  :laugh:

Hey Willie,

I fully understand that God is God and I come nowhere near understanding His ways with us all.

I am just saying that He is one very tough Being to be able to create and observe and, yes, participate with, beings who will suffer to the max of their limits.

Of all the attrubutes of God I am thinking, for me anyway, this is one of the most amazing things about Him. It has to be His hardest task, as He is Love, to create, knowing all the pain and misery and sheer evil that will abound in and around very sensitive, weak creatures. Again, I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it but, again, I am not God. Even knowing all would work out good, I couldn't or wouldn't do it.

There must be so much 'learned' through experiencing incomprehensible hardship, pain and misery that it makes it all worth while or God would not allow it. I do trust God as much as I know Him and I rest all my hope in Him as far as I know Him. It just amazes me and is opening doors into knowing Him better by sharing my feelings and observations with you and others.

I thank you Willie and others for your patience and words, for coming along beside me in my journey.

Molly's a stitch isn't she?

Molly, you are almost more mysterious than the Word of God Himself but then again you are one of His special ones so I can understand.

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 11, 2009, 09:16:45 PM
I thank you Willie and others for your patience and words, for coming along beside me in my journey.

It really is the journey and did not feel that there was any patience required to listen and respond with your comments, it is a blessing to find reason to share.

Concerning the 1000 year reign of Christ and those with Him as written in Revelation:

This book is written by John, the Circumcision writer who wrote only to the Circumcision believers and not to the nations who are Uncircumcision.

Peter, James and John agreed with Paul that they would be for the Circumcision yet Paul for the Nations and Uncircumcision (read Galatians if you don't believe me).

So the 1000 year reign with Christ on the earth is specific to the Jewish believers of the Circumcision only and not to us of the nations.

"Our realm is inherrent (belonging) in the heavens out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord Jesus Christ."

The Circumcision's realm is inherrent on the earth.

It's just that simple. Don't make it hard. Rejoice that your blessings are far above the Circumcision.

You make Gods Word sound so simple Tony, especially when you can compartmentalize everything.

I too have read tons of AE Knochs stuff and it is good but I see a bit differently now, not saying I see better, just differently. I will always be apprceative of Mr. Knoch. You sound like you read his stuff alot, or have.

John is the one who talked of children, young men and fathers, wasn't he? I like to think he was saying we will understand God on different levels as we mature. Are these levels maybe like going from the more natural and physical to the spiritual, do you think?

cp

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 01:23:40 AM
You make Gods Word sound so simple Tony, especially when you can compartmentalize everything.

I too have read tons of AE Knochs stuff and it is good but I see a bit differently now, not saying I see better, just differently. I will always be apprceative of Mr. Knoch. You sound like you read his stuff alot, or have.

John is the one who talked of children, young men and fathers, wasn't he? I like to think he was saying we will understand God on different levels as we mature. Are these levels maybe like going from the more natural and physical to the spiritual, do you think?

cp

Hi cp,
It is not what Knoch says but what saith the Scripture?
Paul also wrote concerning children, mothers, fathers, wives and husbands. But that does not mean what he wrote to them was for the Circumcision. How could it be when he agreed with Peter, James and John he would be for the Uncircumcision and they for the Circumcision?

The 1000 year reign with Christ is on the earth. Christ said the 12 would reign with Him, not Paul or Timothy or Barnabas or Epaphroditus.

Our realm belongs in the heavens. How hard is that?

Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

 :cloud9: Ooooh, I liked THAT, Beloved Servant........ :thumbsup: Blessings....

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 03:30:39 AM
Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

Really? And where is the scripture for that?

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:25:25 AM

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 01:23:40 AM
You make Gods Word sound so simple Tony, especially when you can compartmentalize everything.

I too have read tons of AE Knochs stuff and it is good but I see a bit differently now, not saying I see better, just differently. I will always be apprceative of Mr. Knoch. You sound like you read his stuff alot, or have.

John is the one who talked of children, young men and fathers, wasn't he? I like to think he was saying we will understand God on different levels as we mature. Are these levels maybe like going from the more natural and physical to the spiritual, do you think?

cp

Hi cp,
It is not what Knoch says but what saith the Scripture?
Paul also wrote concerning children, mothers, fathers, wives and husbands. But that does not mean what he wrote to them was for the Circumcision. How could it be when he agreed with Peter, James and John he would be for the Uncircumcision and they for the Circumcision?

The 1000 year reign with Christ is on the earth. Christ said the 12 would reign with Him, not Paul or Timothy or Barnabas or Epaphroditus.

Our realm belongs in the heavens. How hard is that?

Well, to tell you the truth Tony, I hope when I'm in the 'heavenlies ' with Jesus that I can also participate here on my birth home, Earth to be more explicit. Not that the heavenlies won't totally capture all my attention but after putting up with all the crap in the world as it is now I will be a bit miffed if I can't participate in it when it's doing better!

So I guess I hope you are a bit wrong in your interpretaion of our Lord words concerning things spiritual and physical.

cp

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:35:25 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 03:30:39 AM
Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

Really? And where is the scripture for that?

In the heart where Gods throne is, maybe?

cp

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:25:25 AM

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 01:23:40 AM
You make Gods Word sound so simple Tony, especially when you can compartmentalize everything.

I too have read tons of AE Knochs stuff and it is good but I see a bit differently now, not saying I see better, just differently. I will always be apprceative of Mr. Knoch. You sound like you read his stuff alot, or have.

John is the one who talked of children, young men and fathers, wasn't he? I like to think he was saying we will understand God on different levels as we mature. Are these levels maybe like going from the more natural and physical to the spiritual, do you think?

cp

Hi cp,
It is not what Knoch says but what saith the Scripture?

Or what doth Tony or cp saith or thinkith the Scripture saith!

cp

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:35:25 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 03:30:39 AM
Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

Really? And where is the scripture for that?

Dearest Tony, always looking for proof without your temple when Truth comes not from words on parchment, but from the spirit "within" us.  Truth is revealed through relationship.  The parchments lead us to it, but only the Spirit can usher us in it.

God requires faith, why are you then always demanding proof?  I've never seen Peter, James and John being faith, hope and love . . and to be perfectly honest, I don't think that's what's being portrayed here as much as the revealing of dimensional truths.  It's all in alignment with the tabernacle . . .outercourt, inner court and Holy of Holies . . .outer court being first dimension, dealing with literal and physical things . . .infancy in relationship with the Father dealing with salvation and baptisms.

Much of Peter's nature was very much in alignment with the elementary level of relationship with the Father.  It's all progressive, 1st dimension leads to second, second leads to third, it's a process of spiritual maturity. 

James was much more straight forward with ministry and doctrine.  Scripture seems to elaborate on Peter's struggles with his personality quirks, much like a new born Christian does.  But with James Much of what he wrote was dealing with one "doing" ministry.  His writings seem to take that infant relationship to the next level.  Maturing the readers, bringing them into a more active level in their relationship.

Whereas with John . . .it was revelational.  Even the smaller letters written by him were dealing with love . . .the last is always the greatest.  Faith births hope, hope manifests love . . .but the greatest of these is love.

The greatest of the three dimensions is to pursue the spirit.

Know the natural,
Apply the moral,
Pursue the spiritual.

Spiritual goes inward . . .God is not going to destroy man as the church would lead you to believe.  He's destroying "man" in men.  Huge difference.

willieH: Hi brother N...  :OhNo:

Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2009, 08:01:17 PM

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:35:25 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 03:30:39 AM
Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

Really? And where is the scripture for that?

Dearest Tony, always looking for proof without your temple when Truth comes not from words on parchment, but from the spirit "within" us.  Truth is revealed through relationship.  The parchments lead us to it, but only the Spirit can usher us in it.

God requires faith, why are you then always demanding proof?  I've never seen Peter, James and John being faith, hope and love . . and to be perfectly honest, I don't think that's what's being portrayed here as much as the revealing of dimensional truths.  It's all in alignment with the tabernacle . . .outercourt, inner court and Holy of Holies . . .outer court being first dimension, dealing with literal and physical things . . .infancy in relationship with the Father dealing with salvation and baptisms.

Much of Peter's nature was very much in alignment with the elementary level of relationship with the Father.  It's all progressive, 1st dimension leads to second, second leads to third, it's a process of spiritual maturity. 

James was much more straight forward with ministry and doctrine.  Scripture seems to elaborate on Peter's struggles with his personality quirks, much like a new born Christian does.  But with James Much of what he wrote was dealing with one "doing" ministry.  His writings seem to take that infant relationship to the next level.  Maturing the readers, bringing them into a more active level in their relationship.

Whereas with John . . .it was revelational.  Even the smaller letters written by him were dealing with love . . .the last is always the greatest.  Faith births hope, hope manifests love . . .but the greatest of these is love.

The greatest of the three dimensions is to pursue the spirit.

Know the natural,
Apply the moral,
Pursue the spiritual.

Spiritual goes inward . . .God is not going to destroy man as the church would lead you to believe.  He's destroying "man" in men.  Huge difference.

RIGHT ON!  :goodpost:

Great words brother N... You are a wonderful teacher... this writing is so ON-POINT!  Bring us to the wonder of the COMPLEX via the pathway of the SIMPLE...

Bless you bro...

Quote from: Nathan on June 18, 2009, 08:01:17 PM

Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2009, 03:35:25 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 03:30:39 AM
Now; Peter, James and John = Faith, Hope and Love

Really? And where is the scripture for that?

Dearest Tony, always looking for proof without your temple when Truth comes not from words on parchment, but from the spirit "within" us.  Truth is revealed through relationship.  The parchments lead us to it, but only the Spirit can usher us in it.

God requires faith, why are you then always demanding proof?  I've never seen Peter, James and John being faith, hope and love . . and to be perfectly honest, I don't think that's what's being portrayed here as much as the revealing of dimensional truths.  It's all in alignment with the tabernacle . . .outercourt, inner court and Holy of Holies . . .outer court being first dimension, dealing with literal and physical things . . .infancy in relationship with the Father dealing with salvation and baptisms.

Much of Peter's nature was very much in alignment with the elementary level of relationship with the Father.  It's all progressive, 1st dimension leads to second, second leads to third, it's a process of spiritual maturity. 

James was much more straight forward with ministry and doctrine.  Scripture seems to elaborate on Peter's struggles with his personality quirks, much like a new born Christian does.  But with James Much of what he wrote was dealing with one "doing" ministry.  His writings seem to take that infant relationship to the next level.  Maturing the readers, bringing them into a more active level in their relationship.

Whereas with John . . .it was revelational.  Even the smaller letters written by him were dealing with love . . .the last is always the greatest.  Faith births hope, hope manifests love . . .but the greatest of these is love.

The greatest of the three dimensions is to pursue the spirit.

Know the natural,
Apply the moral,
Pursue the spiritual.

Spiritual goes inward . . .God is not going to destroy man as the church would lead you to believe.  He's destroying "man" in men.  Huge difference.

I agree with Willie, Nathan, but don't be disheartened Tony, you gots good stuff too when you let your guard down Brother!

I just want to spend some time on this here good ole earth in its glory days. I figure I put up with all its garbage, I should have a right to indulge in its perfected form too.

Nathan, how's that for looking at the physical?

cp

 :dsunny: :dsunny:

When people try to support the idea that the 1,000 yrs isn't literal, and I believe I've understood their reasoning, I'm not very convinced.  Perhaps a large part of why is to what claypot refers.  I really would like to be here in a Millennium.  I'd like to get the things that need fixing on the house finally fixed and then enjoy living here.  I'd like to get the things done with the garden and pond that should be done.  I'd like not to be such a transient lifeform...to be able to smoke and it wouldn't damage your health.  How great to collect books, mostly about the Lord and His word, and enough of them, while able to study them without losing the knowledge through a mind filled with holes.  It would be so wonderful to spend time with friends sharing the knowledge of the Lord in ways and depths so rare today.  Just to share without religious walls!!!  It takes time to be able to properly play musical instruments.  However I've labored, at length and all alone, by not practising enough lately I see I'm losing much.  To be able to take the time for music and learning new instruments (like some computer programs I've neglected) and to enjoy worshipping with others at leisure sounds so good.

The best I understand ruling with Christ is something like we've learned to do with our inner man in obtaining victory over sin, only applied to those in the area to which we're assigned  To speak the truth and impart the Spirit with the authority and power to make it sure seems what that would be; that, and to be available to help those being born with entering into God.

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 10:40:19 PM

I just want to spend some time on this here good ole earth in its glory days. I figure I put up with all its garbage, I should have a right to indulge in its perfected form too.

Nathan, how's that for looking at the physical?

cp

I'm with you.

I look around at all the beauty and majesty and think... :sigh:
I sure hope that this isn't the only time I'll get...
So many things God created, animals, trees, underwater worlds, mountains that I just want to explore.

Is that so bad?  :dontknow:
I just long to be free to explore with this "fallen" aspect of the world having been REMOVED.
To be honest, it's the only thing that keeps me sane some days.
To just imagine being in the land of love and light, where all is well...
And to just love others the way I always dream of loving others.
To just see reunions of loved ones...
wrongs being made right.
enemies becoming friends.
ALL finally understanding how much God loves them.



I don't mean to sound selfish, but can't I hug a lion  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNTdWbVBgc) too, someday?

I understand your romance with the physical realm but remember that this is the LOWEST form of creation.
Just a type and shadow of our true and eternal spiritual existence.

I'm not so sure about that...
Not arguing with you...
Just.. not so sure about that, beloved.
I see it being in a glorified state.
But not dissapearing.
I see it being made NEW.

Oh! yes! sister.
Our Brother Jesus did not rot in the grave!
His body is with Him now in a "glorified state."
And so shall we be!
Let it be.

I just heard that all four gospels just recount 18 days out of Jesus' three year ministry.

This could be a long 1000 years. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 19, 2009, 05:41:45 AM
Oh! yes! sister.
Our Brother Jesus did not rot in the grave!
His body is with Him now in a "glorified state."
And so shall we be!
Let it be.

Yes, it's true that the physical form of Jesus did not rot in the grave.
This is why the angels were present at the 'tomb' of Jesus; to guard the natural body of Jesus against the powers of death. The angels were not there to prevent radicals or Roman soldiers from stealing the body of Jesus. They were there to secure the natural body of Jesus from the powers of decay and decomposition until such time as Jesus could reclaim it ... put it on once again. In this way Jesus could again become visible in this visible earthy realm.
Jesus had two 'bodies' (so to speak) ... a natural body as well as a spiritual body. This is in keeping with the scripture saying: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body".
It does not say, "there WILL BE". It says "THERE IS".
You have natural eyes and ears which belong to your natural body and these allow you to hear the birds and see the rainbows.
But you also have SPIRITUAL eyes and ears. These form part of your SPIRITUAL body. With spiritual eyes and ears you are able to hear the voice of God who is 'spirit' and you are able to see "the evidence of things unseen".
Unseen by what? Of course, unseen by your natural eyes.
Jesus possessed a 'glorified state' long before his natural body was given over to the power of death. This 'glorified state' was in fact his spiritual body.
What happened to the natural body of Jesus? It was 'swallowed up' by his spiritual body. This is in fact what is meant by the much maligned word 'rapture'; what is meant when it says that Jesus triumphed over death ... the last enemy.
Of course, it is very difficult to comprehend this all for those who don't quite understand that they exist and have their being in two dimensions; one natural and the other spiritual; visible and invisible. That is what Abraham was telling us when he pitched his Tent: "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God". We now exist in this city (aka: spiritual Jerusalem); and all inhabitants or citizens of this city function with spiritual bodies.

Perhaps inadvertently Sparrow,
But you touched on the whole reason that the Word took flesh!
To reconcile the creation unto God!

Quote from: sparrow on August 19, 2009, 05:37:25 AM
I'm not so sure about that...
Not arguing with you...
Just.. not so sure about that, beloved.
I see it being in a glorified state.
But not dissapearing.
I see it being made NEW.

Do you mean 'new' in the sense of fixing it so it becomes as 'new'?
Or, do you mean 'new' in the sense of entirely new; something created (re-created) as an original form and substance?
When the Bible speaks of a 'new creation', it is not speaking about a 'repair'.
When the Bible speaks of 'restoration', it is speaking about being restored to the undefiled intent of God "from the beginning".
When we speak of Obama being an agent of change; we should not be surprised to learn that he can be nothing more than a 'repair-man'; unable to change things, he resigns himself to fixing things.
But when we speak about God, He is not in the repair-business. He is truly a CHANGE agent. Old things indeed pass away and all things become 'new'.
We should understand what the scriptures are saying with the following: "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"; "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature".
These scriptures are speaking about NEW.
If you look up the word 'new creature' in Strongs Concordance, you will see that it means "new species". The old creature was the natural man; the new creature is the spiritual man.
When you were born again, you were not born 'afresh'; nor were you somehow 'repaired'. You were born again as a new species (new creature). Similar to earthly parents, God Himself gives these 'new creatures' a name which only He knows.