God desires all Kings to be saved

[legoman]

This one just really bugs me.  We all know the passage:

1 Tim 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Verse 4 is so clear, God desires (or wills) all men to be saved.  ALL Men!  It says it right there!

No no no they say.  Context context context they say.  You are missing the context legoman!  See there in verse 2 its talking about kings, therefore it really means all types of men.

Now I am scratching my head.  Ok you really want to go down the "context" road?  What is the context of verse 2?  Its "kings and those in authority" ie. rulers/kings.  So isn't the context of verse 1 & 4 also Kings?  Where did this "all types" come from?!?  Its talking about KINGS!

CLEARLY the passage was meant to read:

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all KINGS to be saved.

Isn't this context thing great?  You can change a verse to say whatever you want it to!  I have just proven that ALL rulers/kings will be saved!  Time to go into politics and guarantee my salvation...

Sheesh...

[WhiteWings]

I read it as two blocks of text that have no connection between them (besides God)
The first mistake is linking those blocks as context.
The second mistake is that 'they' don't even understand the 1st block.

Verse 1-3 states that God likes it that we pray for others.
Others is: Everyone including kings and authorities. Not only kings and authorities.
For me it's an 'especially' type of verse. The kings should have extra support by prayers to maintain peace.
Gods likes peace.

Verse 4-6 states that all will be saved.
This has block absolutely nothing to do with 1-3

1-3 God like prayers for others.
4-6 God saves all.
The only link is that God is mentioned in both verses.

If the verse was:
1-2 I urge you to turn to The Son.  -> Statement #1
3 That pleases Father, -> Connector
4-6 who likes conflackes for breakfast.   -> Statement #2

Does that context prove God eats people for breakfast?
Or is speaking about 2 seperate things....

[jabcat]

I really like your first paragraph WW.

Yes, IMO, context is a great thing.  It's very often a crucial thing.  Things (even in life in general) must be taken in context.  Otherwise, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and misbehaviors can occur.   Without seeing things in their proper context/surroundings/intent, Gary's quote often comes into play;  "..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?  A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."

It's not just about context...it's also about Spirit revelation, honest seeking, an open, yielded and obedient heart and mind.  IMO, taking any of those things out of the equation can create error. 

Just because people can misuse context (or about anything else)  doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether!  It's not context that's the problem, it's people's hearts and blindness that can twist a truth into a lie...in context or out.  So to throw out context (or any other important precept) because some misuse it, would be like throwing out food because some people eat way too much of it. 

[WhiteWings]

Yes, IMO, context is a great thing. 
.....
Just because people can misuse context

:laughing7:

[jabcat]

WW, one of these days.... :punish:    :laughing7:

Actually, that's pretty good, you stinker.

[jabcat]

P.S.  I agree, the "Kings" thing is definitely misusing context...perhaps to try to force/create a view one already believes...

[legoman]

I really like your first paragraph WW.

Yes, IMO, context is a great thing.  It's very often a crucial thing.  Things (even in life in general) must be taken in context.  Otherwise, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and misbehaviors can occur.   Without seeing things in their proper context/surroundings/intent, Gary's quote often comes into play;  "..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?  A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."

It's not just about context...it's also about Spirit revelation, honest seeking, an open, yielded and obedient heart and mind.  IMO, taking any of those things out of the equation can create error. 

Just because people can misuse context (or about anything else)  doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether!  It's not context that's the problem, it's people's hearts and blindness that can twist a truth into a lie...in context or out.  So to throw out context (or any other important precept) because some misuse it, would be like throwing out food because some people eat way too much of it. 

Agreed we can't throw context out - it is crucial to understanding.  It just that so many people misuse context to arrive at completely opposite meaning of the plain reading.

Like whitewings example about cornflakes -> while not exactly perfect, it does illustrate the point of the bizarre transferance people do.  The thing is its only done to support the man made doctrine of hell.

And don't forget about verse 6 either where Jesus is a ransom for all.  This seems clear, but verse 1-2 sets it astray again.  But just looking at verse 6, we have 2 larger competeing "contexts":

1.  the hell doctine which says not all will be saved
2.  all the verses that say Jesus is the saviour of the world, takes away the sins of the world, is the propitation for the sins of the world

So we have two contradictory contexts to choose from.  No matter which one we pick (1 or 2) the other one must be reconciled with the former.  Which means we try to understand what "eternal hell" is; or simply change the plain meaning of "saviour of all", "saviour of the world", etc.

You are right jabcat, it does take an obedient honest heart to see this stuff.

[jabcat]

Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context?  That's probably another issue that can also be misused...again, to try to prove a point in which we already believe, rather than letting the Word change and shape what we believe.  Picking, choosing, twisting...Further thoughts and examples about that?  I can also look for some more later.

[sven]

another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?

[legoman]

another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?

IMHO it doesn't matter either way.  In some translation's it is God's will.  In others it is only a "want" or "desire".

Does it make a difference?  Not if you know God is sovereign.  Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to.  He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.

But scripture tells us the answer as always:

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
       from ancient times, what is still to come.
       I say: My purpose will stand,
       and I will do all that I please.

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
       It will not return to me empty,
       but will accomplish what I desire
       and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

If someone tries to tell you "its only God's desire, but its not going to happen", just show them these 2 verses.

Does God desire all men be saved?  YES.  Does God's word accomplish what He desires?  YES.  Does God do that which He pleases (what He desires)?  YES.

There you go, proof that God does what He wants and will save all men.  QED.  Who would have thought?  :happygrin:

[legoman]

Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context?  That's probably another issue that can also be misused...again, to try to prove a point in which we already believe, rather than letting the Word change and shape what we believe.  Picking, choosing, twisting...Further thoughts and examples about that?  I can also look for some more later.

Not sure which context you meant here jabcat... care to expand?  Did you mean we should try to determine whether it means "all men" or only "all types" of men or "all kings"?  To me it seems clear that it really is all men.

However, not as clear with this verse, which URers will always show (I used to do it to):
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


I tend to think 2 Pe 3:9 is actually a bit ambiguos.  ETers will say:  who is the "YOU" in this verse?  And if you look at the context you have to agree it was the church that the letter was written to, or more in general believers.  So then who is the "anyone"?  A case can be made it only means believers, not everyone.  Plain reading would suggest it is everyone, but it is not clearcut.

Personally I think it is ambigous, so I no longer use this verse as a big UR "proof" verse.

[WhiteWings]

Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context?

Lets try that.

No no no they say.  Context context context they say.  You are missing the context legoman!  See there in verse 2 its talking about kings, therefore it really means all types of men.

Again easilly proven false logic.
How ETs read the verses.

Verse 1 tells us to pray for kings
Verse 2 tells us why we should do so.
Verse 3 tells us God likes that.
Verse 4 tells us God wants all kings to be saved.
Verse 5-6 tell us about the importance of Jesus.

My "rebutual"
Those who pray for are not the kings.
Only the kings get saved.
So why pray for kings if they are elected for heaven and I'm cast in hell anyway?
Verse 3 calls that peace and praying even a godliness life. So after living a godliness life we goto hell?
And those we pray for, possibly pagans, goto heaven.
That simply doesn't add up.

But simply reading the words with their everyday simple meanings gives 6 verses that make sense without twisting anything.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Legoman, have you ever seen a chain of the name meanings in the OT, from Adam onward? It tells a story by itself of God's will and plan for man. I personally think that pretty much says it all.

Do the detractors really think that the parent's of these children decades to hundreds to thousands of years apart all just decided independently of their "free will", to name their children in such a way as to speak a part of a message of salvation for all?

This was really the first thing that showed me that God's will to get things done as He elected, was being done in the earth, when I first cracked open my concordance. And then  you add in the other names of places in there where specific things happened, and there is just no way it all happened by "chance". THESE things spoke to me before I ever knew the scriptures to even form such a "doctrine" as UR or His sovereignty. Just my  :2c:.....Blessings....

[legoman]

If you want a good UR "proof" verse, show'em this one:
Isaiah 45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;

and then watch them twist and turn as they try to explain it away:
- "all the ends of the earth" doesn't really mean every person
- the context is only "Israel" (verse 25)
- not everyone will actually turn to God because some people will defy Him

Yeah right.  :winkgrin:

Then show them Isaiah 45:23 right after where everyone not only bows and confesses, but they also SWEAR ALLEGIANCE!  Haven't had anyone explain that one to me yet... why someone who is bound for hell is swearing allegiance (loyalty) to the Lord!  Common belief seems to be the hellbound never turn to the Lord because they prefer "hell" instead of God.  Yeesh  :happy3:

Those 2 verses have got to be the clearest proof of UR ever.  Its really difficult to twist those with "context" tricks, although they will try.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

:cloud9: Legoman, have you ever seen a chain of the name meanings in the OT, from Adam onward? It tells a story by itself of God's will and plan for man. I personally think that pretty much says it all.

Do the detractors really think that the parent's of these children decades to hundreds to thousands of years apart all just decided independently of their "free will", to name their children in such a way as to speak a part of a message of salvation for all?

This was really the first thing that showed me that God's will to get things done as He elected, was being done in the earth, when I first cracked open my concordance. And then  you add in the other names of places in there where specific things happened, and there is just no way it all happened by "chance". THESE things spoke to me before I ever knew the scriptures to even form such a "doctrine" as UR or His sovereignty. Just my  :2c:.....Blessings....

No I haven't seen that before.  Sounds interesting... is that like some sort of "bible code" thing with the names of each generation?

Any links summarizing it?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No site, I had it, I'll look it up for you......you'll be amazed as I was. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?

Gods "desire" is infinitly strong.
Gods "want" is double infinitly strong.

Can't remeber the exact verse:
No word shall leave my mouth and will not be done.
The word is written down in the Bible. So....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: No site, I had it, I'll look it up for you......you'll be amazed as I was. Blessings....

(http://www.bible-codes.org/images/acrostic_bible_code_Adam-Abraham.jpg)

Hebrew              English

     Adam                Man
     Seth                Appointed
     Enosh               Mortal
     Kenan               Sorrow
     Mahalalel           The Blessed God
     Jared               Shall come down
     Enoch               Teaching
     Methuselah          His death shall bring
     Lamech              The Despairing
     Noah                Rest, or comfort.

[legoman]

OK took me a sec there till I remembered Hebrew reads right to left  :bigGrin:

Interesting.  Sometimes I'm not sure what to make of this bible code type stuff.  I'm not sure how much to right off as "probability" and how much is real.  On the surface it looks like something is there, but did they just "get lucky" and find the message they were looking for?

For example I've heard of people doing "bible code" searches in "War and Peace" and finding hidden messages.

But I haven't studied it enough, it does interest me though as something potentially huge that we are only scratching the surface on.

Peace...

[sven]

Does it make a difference?  Not if you know God is sovereign.  Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to.  He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.

my point was, that to my understanding desire would have a stronger force than want or wish

[legoman]

Hebrew              English

     Adam                Man
     Seth                Appointed
     Enosh               Mortal
     Kenan               Sorrow
     Mahalalel           The Blessed God
     Jared               Shall come down
     Enoch               Teaching
     Methuselah          His death shall bring
     Lamech              The Despairing
     Noah                Rest, or comfort.

Ok this part is more interesting.  Specific meaning to name across successive generations reads as a sentence describing God's plan.  Impressive.

Are these names really succesive generations in the bible? 

[legoman]

Does it make a difference?  Not if you know God is sovereign.  Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to.  He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.

my point was, that to my understanding desire would have a stronger force than want or wish

Like WW said, "infinite" or "double infinite" - its all the same.  Can we really wonder if there is anything that happens that God does not desire?  Who is really in control here?

Its not like "Ooh God desires all will be saved, so that will definitely happen, but God only wants XYZ to happen, so it might not happen".  Nope, does not compute.  If God wants or desires something to happen, it will happen.


Sorry just realized you might be talking about the "emphasis" of the word.  You may be correct there, check the greek.   But the rest of my post still applies I think.

[WhiteWings]

Legoman,

The names have commonly accepted meanings. They are even in Strongs.

The picture is perhaps Bible code but very simple code.
Some code indeed makes you wonder if it is really there of just imagination.
Even the word Torah is a message.
But that goes way out of context of this topic.

[Beloved Servant]

I found this:
www.d.umn.edu/~jbelote/bible2.html

[Beloved Servant]

The blood line in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 are a little different.