This one just really bugs me. We all know the passage:
1 Tim 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Verse 4 is so clear, God desires (or wills) all men to be saved. ALL Men! It says it right there!
No no no they say. Context context context they say. You are missing the context legoman! See there in verse 2 its talking about kings, therefore it really means all types of men.
Now I am scratching my head. Ok you really want to go down the "context" road? What is the context of verse 2? Its "kings and those in authority" ie. rulers/kings. So isn't the context of verse 1 & 4 also Kings? Where did this "all types" come from?!? Its talking about KINGS!
CLEARLY the passage was meant to read:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all KINGS to be saved.
Isn't this context thing great? You can change a verse to say whatever you want it to! I have just proven that ALL rulers/kings will be saved! Time to go into politics and guarantee my salvation...
Sheesh...
I read it as two blocks of text that have no connection between them (besides God)
The first mistake is linking those blocks as context.
The second mistake is that 'they' don't even understand the 1st block.
Verse 1-3 states that God likes it that we pray for others.
Others is: Everyone including kings and authorities. Not only kings and authorities.
For me it's an 'especially' type of verse. The kings should have extra support by prayers to maintain peace.
Gods likes peace.
Verse 4-6 states that all will be saved.
This has block absolutely nothing to do with 1-3
1-3 God like prayers for others.
4-6 God saves all.
The only link is that God is mentioned in both verses.
If the verse was:
1-2 I urge you to turn to The Son. -> Statement #1
3 That pleases Father, -> Connector
4-6 who likes conflackes for breakfast. -> Statement #2
Does that context prove God eats people for breakfast?
Or is speaking about 2 seperate things....
I really like your first paragraph WW.
Yes, IMO, context is a great thing. It's very often a crucial thing. Things (even in life in general) must be taken in context. Otherwise, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and misbehaviors can occur. Without seeing things in their proper context/surroundings/intent, Gary's quote often comes into play; "..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts? A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."
It's not just about context...it's also about Spirit revelation, honest seeking, an open, yielded and obedient heart and mind. IMO, taking any of those things out of the equation can create error.
Just because people can misuse context (or about anything else) doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether! It's not context that's the problem, it's people's hearts and blindness that can twist a truth into a lie...in context or out. So to throw out context (or any other important precept) because some misuse it, would be like throwing out food because some people eat way too much of it.
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 08:37:01 PM
Yes, IMO, context is a great thing.
.....
Just because people can misuse context
:laughing7:
WW, one of these days.... :punish: :laughing7:
Actually, that's pretty good, you stinker.
P.S. I agree, the "Kings" thing is definitely misusing context...perhaps to try to force/create a view one already believes...
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 08:37:01 PM
I really like your first paragraph WW.
Yes, IMO, context is a great thing. It's very often a crucial thing. Things (even in life in general) must be taken in context. Otherwise, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and misbehaviors can occur. Without seeing things in their proper context/surroundings/intent, Gary's quote often comes into play; "..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts? A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."
It's not just about context...it's also about Spirit revelation, honest seeking, an open, yielded and obedient heart and mind. IMO, taking any of those things out of the equation can create error.
Just because people can misuse context (or about anything else) doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether! It's not context that's the problem, it's people's hearts and blindness that can twist a truth into a lie...in context or out. So to throw out context (or any other important precept) because some misuse it, would be like throwing out food because some people eat way too much of it.
Agreed we can't throw context out - it is crucial to understanding. It just that so many people misuse context to arrive at completely opposite meaning of the plain reading.
Like whitewings example about cornflakes -> while not exactly perfect, it does illustrate the point of the bizarre transferance people do. The thing is its only done to support the man made doctrine of hell.
And don't forget about verse 6 either where Jesus is a ransom for all. This seems clear, but verse 1-2 sets it astray again. But just looking at verse 6, we have 2 larger competeing "contexts":
1. the hell doctine which says not all will be saved
2. all the verses that say Jesus is the saviour of the world, takes away the sins of the world, is the propitation for the sins of the world
So we have two contradictory contexts to choose from. No matter which one we pick (1 or 2) the other one must be reconciled with the former. Which means we try to understand what "eternal hell" is; or simply change the plain meaning of "saviour of all", "saviour of the world", etc.
You are right jabcat, it does take an obedient honest heart to see this stuff.
Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context? That's probably another issue that can also be misused...again, to try to prove a point in which we already believe, rather than letting the Word change and shape what we believe. Picking, choosing, twisting...Further thoughts and examples about that? I can also look for some more later.
another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?
Quote from: sven on May 26, 2009, 09:23:26 PM
another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?
IMHO it doesn't matter either way. In some translation's it is God's will. In others it is only a "want" or "desire".
Does it make a difference? Not if you know God is sovereign. Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to. He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.
But scripture tells us the answer as always:
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and
I will do all that I please.Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
If someone tries to tell you "its only God's desire, but its not going to happen", just show them these 2 verses.
Does God desire all men be saved? YES. Does God's word accomplish what He desires? YES. Does God do that which He pleases (what He desires)? YES.
There you go, proof that God does what He wants and will save all men. QED. Who would have thought? :happygrin:
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 09:21:32 PM
Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context? That's probably another issue that can also be misused...again, to try to prove a point in which we already believe, rather than letting the Word change and shape what we believe. Picking, choosing, twisting...Further thoughts and examples about that? I can also look for some more later.
Not sure which context you meant here jabcat... care to expand? Did you mean we should try to determine whether it means "all men" or only "all types" of men or "all kings"? To me it seems clear that it really is all men.
However, not as clear with this verse, which URers will always show (I used to do it to):
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with
you, not wanting
anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I tend to think 2 Pe 3:9 is actually a bit ambiguos. ETers will say: who is the "YOU" in this verse? And if you look at the context you have to agree it was the church that the letter was written to, or more in general believers. So then who is the "anyone"? A case can be made it only means believers, not everyone. Plain reading would suggest it is everyone, but it is not clearcut.
Personally I think it is ambigous, so I no longer use this verse as a big UR "proof" verse.
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 09:21:32 PM
Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context?
Lets try that.
Quote from: legoman on May 26, 2009, 07:11:13 PM
No no no they say. Context context context they say. You are missing the context legoman! See there in verse 2 its talking about kings, therefore it really means all types of men.
Again easilly proven false logic.
How ETs read the verses.
Verse 1 tells us to pray for kings
Verse 2 tells us why we should do so.
Verse 3 tells us God likes that.
Verse 4 tells us God wants all kings to be saved.
Verse 5-6 tell us about the importance of Jesus.
My "rebutual"
Those who pray for are not the kings.
Only the kings get saved.
So why pray for kings if they are elected for heaven and I'm cast in hell anyway?
Verse 3 calls that peace and praying even a godliness life. So after living a godliness life we goto hell?
And those we pray for, possibly pagans, goto heaven.
That simply doesn't add up.
But simply reading the words with their everyday simple meanings gives 6 verses that make sense without twisting anything.
:cloud9: Legoman, have you ever seen a chain of the name meanings in the OT, from Adam onward? It tells a story by itself of God's will and plan for man. I personally think that pretty much says it all.
Do the detractors really think that the parent's of these children decades to hundreds to thousands of years apart all just decided independently of their "free will", to name their children in such a way as to speak a part of a message of salvation for all?
This was really the first thing that showed me that God's will to get things done as He elected, was being done in the earth, when I first cracked open my concordance. And then you add in the other names of places in there where specific things happened, and there is just no way it all happened by "chance". THESE things spoke to me before I ever knew the scriptures to even form such a "doctrine" as UR or His sovereignty. Just my :2c:.....Blessings....
If you want a good UR "proof" verse, show'em this one:
Isaiah 45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
and then watch them twist and turn as they try to explain it away:
- "all the ends of the earth" doesn't really mean every person
- the context is only "Israel" (verse 25)
- not everyone will actually turn to God because some people will defy Him
Yeah right. :winkgrin:
Then show them Isaiah 45:23 right after where everyone not only bows and confesses, but they also SWEAR ALLEGIANCE! Haven't had anyone explain that one to me yet... why someone who is bound for hell is swearing allegiance (loyalty) to the Lord! Common belief seems to be the hellbound never turn to the Lord because they prefer "hell" instead of God. Yeesh :happy3:
Those 2 verses have got to be the clearest proof of UR ever. Its really difficult to twist those with "context" tricks, although they will try.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: Cardinal on May 26, 2009, 09:42:27 PM
:cloud9: Legoman, have you ever seen a chain of the name meanings in the OT, from Adam onward? It tells a story by itself of God's will and plan for man. I personally think that pretty much says it all.
Do the detractors really think that the parent's of these children decades to hundreds to thousands of years apart all just decided independently of their "free will", to name their children in such a way as to speak a part of a message of salvation for all?
This was really the first thing that showed me that God's will to get things done as He elected, was being done in the earth, when I first cracked open my concordance. And then you add in the other names of places in there where specific things happened, and there is just no way it all happened by "chance". THESE things spoke to me before I ever knew the scriptures to even form such a "doctrine" as UR or His sovereignty. Just my :2c:.....Blessings....
No I haven't seen that before. Sounds interesting... is that like some sort of "bible code" thing with the names of each generation?
Any links summarizing it?
:cloud9: No site, I had it, I'll look it up for you......you'll be amazed as I was. Blessings....
Quote from: sven on May 26, 2009, 09:23:26 PM
another guestion; do you think "desire" is weaker than "want", some claim it says not that God wants all men to saved, but only desires, as if desire is weaker, for me it's one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard, but what would you say?
Gods "desire" is infinitly strong.
Gods "want" is double infinitly strong.
Can't remeber the exact verse:
No word shall leave my mouth and will not be done.
The word is written down in the Bible. So....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 26, 2009, 09:47:28 PM
:cloud9: No site, I had it, I'll look it up for you......you'll be amazed as I was. Blessings....
(http://www.bible-codes.org/images/acrostic_bible_code_Adam-Abraham.jpg)
Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.
OK took me a sec there till I remembered Hebrew reads right to left :bigGrin:
Interesting. Sometimes I'm not sure what to make of this bible code type stuff. I'm not sure how much to right off as "probability" and how much is real. On the surface it looks like something is there, but did they just "get lucky" and find the message they were looking for?
For example I've heard of people doing "bible code" searches in "War and Peace" and finding hidden messages.
But I haven't studied it enough, it does interest me though as something potentially huge that we are only scratching the surface on.
Peace...
QuoteDoes it make a difference? Not if you know God is sovereign. Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to. He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.
my point was, that to my understanding desire would have a stronger force than want or wish
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.
Ok this part is more interesting. Specific meaning to name across successive generations reads as a sentence describing God's plan. Impressive.
Are these names really succesive generations in the bible?
Quote from: sven on May 26, 2009, 10:01:16 PM
QuoteDoes it make a difference? Not if you know God is sovereign. Its laughable to suggest that God can't do something He "wants" or "desires" to. He wouldn't even be God if that was the case.
my point was, that to my understanding desire would have a stronger force than want or wish
Like WW said, "infinite" or "double infinite" - its all the same. Can we really wonder if there is anything that happens that God does not desire? Who is really in control here?
Its not like "Ooh God desires all will be saved, so that will definitely happen, but God only wants XYZ to happen, so it might not happen". Nope, does not compute. If God wants or desires something to happen, it will happen.
Sorry just realized you might be talking about the "emphasis" of the word. You may be correct there, check the greek. But the rest of my post still applies I think.
Legoman,
The names have commonly accepted meanings. They are even in Strongs.
The picture is perhaps Bible code but very simple code.
Some code indeed makes you wonder if it is really there of just imagination.
Even the word Torah is a message.
But that goes way out of context of this topic.
I found this:
www.d.umn.edu/~jbelote/bible2.html
The blood line in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 are a little different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 26, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 26, 2009, 09:47:28 PM
:cloud9: No site, I had it, I'll look it up for you......you'll be amazed as I was. Blessings....
(http://www.bible-codes.org/images/acrostic_bible_code_Adam-Abraham.jpg)
Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.
:cloud9: You're on it, as usual, WW. :happy3: :thumbsup: That's similar to what I had. There are others all thru there in all the OT books. The names themselves tell a "story". Blessings...
Quote from: legoman on May 26, 2009, 09:40:30 PM
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 09:21:32 PM
Just my thought here...if we can agree that proper context is important, then it seems an interesting discussion to pursue the piece you bring up about which is the proper context? That's probably another issue that can also be misused...again, to try to prove a point in which we already believe, rather than letting the Word change and shape what we believe. Picking, choosing, twisting...Further thoughts and examples about that? I can also look for some more later.
Not sure which context you meant here jabcat... care to expand? Did you mean we should try to determine whether it means "all men" or only "all types" of men or "all kings"? To me it seems clear that it really is all men.
However, not as clear with this verse, which URers will always show (I used to do it to):
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I tend to think 2 Pe 3:9 is actually a bit ambiguos. ETers will say: who is the "YOU" in this verse? And if you look at the context you have to agree it was the church that the letter was written to, or more in general believers. So then who is the "anyone"? A case can be made it only means believers, not everyone. Plain reading would suggest it is everyone, but it is not clearcut.
Personally I think it is ambigous, so I no longer use this verse as a big UR "proof" verse.
Oh no, I agree with you, I think the 'Kings' one is obvious. I was just referencing that whole idea of twisting things, even mis-appropriating context when the context really appears to be somethings else...but it's been twisted (as in the Kings thing) to try to make one's point...you know, "don't confuse me with the facts...I'll make my own, thank you" :laughing7:.
Work's a little busy, I'll look at the Peter passage in a bit. :thumbsup:
When I was trying to look up a decent definition of Thelo "wills/desires/wants" (from 1 Tim 2: 3,4) I stumbled across this article.
Anyone care to tackle this one?
Is God's Will Always Done?
Copyright, 2007, by David A. Duncan, All Rights Reserved
A "trap" that Christians often fall into is the popular idea that God's will is always done. People often pray "thy will be done" (as Jesus did) and feel somewhat strange doing so since they don't believe that things can be other than according to God's will. The end result of this trap is a path that leads to atheism.
Predestination Connection
The idea that God's will is always done is at the foundation of the doctrine of Predestination. As Robert E. Clayton says in his book, All Scripture Advocate, "Most Christians accept the fact that not all men are saved. If this be so, then either man's will trumps God's will (man is greater than God) or God is impotent (God cannot save all that He desires to save)." Since neither of these alternatives is acceptable, it is concluded that God has chosen in advance who will be saved and who will not. Clayton says, "It should also be noted that when the gift of salvation is offered, man cannot resist" -- or in other words, God's will is always done. So if someone is lost – it is because God willed it to be so, or if someone is saved – it is because God willed it to be so.
Strangely enough, even those who do not believe in Predestination, often believe in the idea that God's will is always done. However, the logical conclusion of the belief that "God's will is always done" supports the concept of God having predestinated who will and will not be saved.
The Trap
The "trap" (of believing God's will is always done) is "sprung" when events occur such that it is inconceivable that a loving God would choose, prefer, desire or will in such a manner. Faith is trapped in a dilemma between belief in God and the consequences of that belief when it is tied inseparably with the belief that God's will is always done. When the two cannot be resolved, rather than accepting that God's will is not always done, people often give up faith in God.
Rationalization
As part of the process of dealing with this dilemma, rationalization is often used in difficult circumstances to argue that some "good" comes from bad situations. For example, when someone suffers, if we can see that in this they became closer to God, then we rationalize that this was God's plan and that the suffering was "justifiable". Verses such as Romans 8:28 are used to argue that God makes every situation into "good" –
Rom. 8:28 (NKJV) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
It is true that God sometimes makes choices that bring good out of bad situations such as the case of death of the son of Jeroboam and the case of Joseph being sold into slavery.
Ahijah spoke to the wife of Jeroboam, when her son Abijah was sick, and told of the destruction that the house of Jeroboam faced, and the dishonorable ways in which they would die. But then he spoke of this child as the only one of Jeroboam's sons that would die with honor.
1 Kings 14:13 (NKJV) And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
Joseph, when his brothers asked for forgiveness for selling him into slavery:
Genesis 50:20 (NKJV) But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
These are used to extrapolate that God always acts in such a way as to bring good out of bad situations – and thus it is all part of God's plan. The trap is sprung when people cannot find some good that comes from a situation, or cannot rationalize why God would choose for things to happen in the way they do. Then, they decide that a "loving God" would surely not act this way and therefore conclude that either God is not loving, or he does not exist.
The Path to Atheism
Julia Sweeney describes this situation in her life. Julia Sweeney (actress on Saturday Night Live), is quoted in an article by Kathi Wolfe (Religious News Service, April 2003) as saying, "When my brother died, I though it was part of God's plan." When someone knocked on her door some time later and asked her "Do you believe that God loves you with all his heart? That query led her to begin to ask questions of her faith." The point of the news article is that Julia has now "come out" as an atheist.
If all that happens is the "will of God", and a family member dies a lingering painful death, does this mean that God "desired" or "choose" that this happen? Founded upon the assumption that "God's will is always done", this is a difficult question to ask and answer for many people. This "trap" leads people to a conclusion that either God does not love or God does not exist.
What is the "Will of God"?
The dictionary (Merriam-Webster) definition of "will" is:
1. the act or process of volition; specifically, (a) wish; desire; longing; (b) inclination; disposition; pleasure; (c) appetite; lust.
2. something wished by a person, especially by one with power or authority; specifically, (a) a request; as, it is his will that you appear; (b) a command; decree; as, His will be done.
3. strong purpose, intention, or determination; as, where there's a will there's a way.
The ideas of "wish, desire", "decree", "strong purpose" are all mixed together and the context must be used to determine the meaning. In the New Testament writings, there are 3 primary greek words that are translated "will": (1) thelo, (2) thelema, and (3) boule. The following are excerpts from Strong's Greek Dictionary:
§ Thelo - choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish
§ Thelema - from the prolonged form of 2309 (thelo); a determination, i.e. choice or inclination:-- desire, pleasure, will.
§ Boule - volition, i.e. advice, or purpose: advise, counsel, will.
When these words are used, instead of an absolute determination of how things will be, they typically describe God's choice, advice, counsel, as shown in the following verses.
1 Thess. 4:3 (NKJV) For this is the will <thelema> of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Thess. 5:18 (NKJV) in everything give thanks; for this is the will <thelema> of God in Christ Jesus for you.
The Will of God is not always Done
The "will" of God (i.e. choice, preference, desire) is often not done. Jesus himself spoke of this when at Jerusalem. He said that God's will was to comfort and protect Jerusalem, but this desire was not to be, for Jerusalem would not cooperate:
Matthew 23:37 (NKJV) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted <thelo> to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing <thelo>!
God does not force man to do his will, but allows man to freely choose whether to serve or not. As in the case of Jerusalem, so it is will all men, for God desires (wills) for all men to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NKJV) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires <thelo> all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
KJV: Who will have <thelo> all men to be saved
NASB: who desires <thelo> all men to be saved
Yet, we know that not all will be saved. There were some that Luke referred to who refused the will of God:
Luke 7:30 (NKJV) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will <boule> of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
Jesus declared that many follow the path of destruction – refusing the counsel (will) of God.
Matthew 7:13 (NKJV) "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."
The free will choice of man is proclaimed in many places in the New Testament with regard to salvation. For example:
John 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The Unchangeable Will of God
There are things that are chosen by God (i.e. His Will) that cannot be changed by man. When this is being communicated, the New Testament utilizes other greek words. For example, when speaking of the death of Jesus, which was by the unchangeable will of God, it says:
Lu 22:22 (NKJV) And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined <horizo>, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!
The greek word "horizo" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary), means - to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain.
The greek word "horizo" when combined with "will" (thelo, thelema, boule), such as in Acts 2:23, is used to communicate that the counsel of God in this case (the death of Jesus) was certain or determinate.
Acts 2:23 (NKJV) Him, being delivered by the determined <horizo> purpose <boule> and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
"Horizo" is used 8 times in the New Testament. Once it is used to speak of a determination by men to send relief to the Christians in Jerusalem. Seven times are in reference to the will of God. Two are mentioned above, the other five are shown below:
Acts 10:42 (NKJV) And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained <horizo> by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 17:26 (NKJV) And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined <horizo> their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
Acts 17:31 (NKJV) because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained <horizo>. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Romans 1:4 (NKJV) and declared <horizo> to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
Hebrews 4:7 (NKJV) again He designates <horizo> a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
The unchangeable will of God is with respect to:
§ The redemption purchased by Jesus Christ (coming, crucifiction, ressurection)
§ Jesus as Judge of all the world
§ The day of judgement
§ Salvation being in Jesus (Hebrews 4:7)
Is God Sovereign?
Some people have trouble with the concept that God can allow men to choose and still be sovereign. This is demonstrated by the thinking that if all men are not saved and it be by the free-will of man, then "man's will trumps God's will (and therefore man is greater than God)". The act of a parent in allowing the child to make a choice does not make the child greater than the parent. Likewise, God does not force man, but allows him to have the ability to choose to accept him or reject him. This does not make man greater than God, for those actions will be judged by God. There are consequences to rejection and God has promised to punish those who do so.
How to Avoid the Trap
The "trap" of thinking that God's will is always done, leads to conclusions which reject God when situations arise in which it seems inconceivable that God would choose a particular result (e.g. the atrocities of Hitler, genocides, et. al.). The reality is that God's will is often not done, and when we realize that we live in a world with others who have free will and make bad choices, we can understand that much of what happens in this world are the consequences of the choices of men.
Another trap is to think that because God does not intervene, that he either does not care, he is unable to change the outcome, or that he condones the outcome. God's ways are not our ways, and we often think that death is a tragedy, while God tells us that there are worse things than death. Jesus said:
Matthew 10:28 (NKJV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Let us not lay the wrong-doing of man as a charge against God, for He is faithful.
Deuteronomy 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
Even though times may come when we suffer "according to the will of God", we should recognize that God is faithful and we should commit our souls to Him. As Peter said:
1 Peter 4:19 (NKJV) Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
How can it be according to the will of God that we suffer? Jesus said that those who followed him would face persecution. It was not God's primary choice that they suffer, but it was by God's choice that they be faithful to him, and a consequence of that faithfulness was that those who oppose God would oppose those who follow God.
Matthew 10:22 (NKJV) And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
So then, those who opposed Jesus (and said that he did miracles by the power of Beelzebub or Satan), would also oppose the followers of Jesus.
Matthew 10:25 (NKJV) It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!
So, even when we suffer for doing what is right, we need to acknowledge that God is faithful to those who are his and we should not allow ourselves to charge God with being the cause of suffering.
Prayer According to the Will of God
When we ask for something in prayer and then say "Your will be done" (as Jesus did in Gethsemane), we are not simply accepting that all things will be according to God's will. Rather, it is an attempt to keep our requests and our desires in consonance (agreement) with what God desires for us.
David A. Duncan
Oh my goodness, where to begin. Really, its nothing we haven't seen before.
My first thoughts:
1. Hasn't this guy heard of Calvinism?
2. This guy really needs to read Ray Smith's series on free will a few times
He seems to be confusing several things about God's will.
Namely, that God has a plan that is used to achieve his ultimate will. God's plan sometimes appears to be going "against" His will, but in reality God works ALL THINGS to achieve His purpose.
YES, Even HITLER!
I know its hard for us simple humans to understand how good could have come out of Hitler's atrocities, but it must be so. In fact the bible tells us that God's ways are higher than man's ways, and his judgments are unsearchable. No one can understand all of God's paths. But they are all for good. And I don't mean good as in an "eternal BBQ" kind of good.
God is sovereign folks. People don't like to hear it sometimes, but its the truth. I'm not sure how much we can discuss it here without getting into a free-will food fight, so I defer to the mod's judgment.
Peace...
:thumbsup:
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I pulled this out of my notes;
Will is thelo or thelema
Wish is euchomai
Desire is epithumia, and has to do with feelings, rather than with determination.
To be disposed is phroneo, and expresses the bent or bias.
Intend or intention is boulomai.
Each word has a specific meaning, yet the Bible translators have translated these words as they chose, rather than as to their true meaning. The exact meaning of each word can be understood by studying EVERY place in the Bible that the specific word is used, then making sure that the same English translation is used in EVERY instance that the specific Greek word is used.
But mistranslations abound. For instance, The word will is mistranslated into counsel, opinion, wish, about, eagerness, delight, accord and voluntary.
The word "wish" (euchomai) lacks entirely the sense of determination that is essential to the word "will" (thelo/thelema).
So when God wills something, He's not just wishing or hoping...HE MEANS IT!
Quote from: Doc on May 27, 2009, 02:21:27 AM
Anyone care to tackle this one?
Not much time now but I
will tackle it :laughing7:
Quote"Most Christians accept the fact that not all men are saved. If this be so, then either man's will trumps God's will (man is greater than God) or God is impotent (God cannot save all that He desires to save)." Since neither of these alternatives is acceptable, it is concluded that God has chosen in advance who will be saved and who will not.
That's exactly how satan works. Lot of truth polluted with 1 lie.
Most muslims believe all Christians goto hell. Most Protestants believe all Catholics goto hell. Most childeren believe in santa. Most....
Using an assumption as the foundation of proof.
(Setting up a straw man)
This statement is added so people don't dare to argue with the conclusion drawn. If they argue then they in a way say God is not all powerful.
Again false reasoning. While I'm sure all on this forum agree with the red part it doesn't tell us anything.
When we agree God is all powerful it in no way proves or disproves that all are saved.
So the red statement of truth is used to backup the blue statement that is to be examined in this article.
So the personal idea of the writer is used to prove his personal idea. (circular reasoning)
I would suggest a that you take math for beginners...
A= Assumption #1: most agree. Assumtion #2: I'm right about this assumption.
B= True statement.
C = Correct conclusion. But the variables are disputed. Therefore the conclusion also.
So basicly we have the following formula: A+B=C
Lets agree on this:
If a statement is true we give it teh value of 1. If it is false we give it a value of 0
If C=1 then UR=true
If C=2 then ET=true
We all agree B=true=1
That leaves us with 2 possibilities
1+1=2 => ET is true
0+1=1 => UR is true
If not clear already it proves that his whole reasing is based on A.
The discussion is:
A=1? Not all are saved
A=0? All are saved
To follow that guys reasoning:
Most Christians believe the majority goes to hell.
ETs are the majority if Christianity. Therefore ETs goto hell.
QuoteIf all that happens is the "will of God", and a family member dies a lingering painful death, does this mean that God "desired" or "choose" that this happen? Founded upon the assumption that "God's will is always done", this is a difficult question to ask and answer for many people. This "trap" leads people to a conclusion that either God does not love or God does not exist.
Similar reasoning:
If God is love he doesn't desire a family member dies a lingering painful death. It happens therefore God is not all powerful.
This "trap" leads people to a conclusion that either God isn't all powerful or God does not exist.Or:
Founded upon the assumption that "God's will is always done", we can say either God doesn't love people that he casts into hell or He isn't powerful enough to prevent it.Yep. Things can be read anyway you like.....
QuoteHow to Avoid the Trap
The "trap" of thinking that God's will is always done, leads to conclusions which reject God when situations arise in which it seems inconceivable that God would choose a particular result (e.g. the atrocities of Hitler, genocides, et. al.).
And how about the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? etc?
Also manmade events?
QuoteThe reality is that God's will is often not done, and when we realize that we live in a world with others who have free will and make bad choices, we can understand that much of what happens in this world are the consequences of the choices of men.
Was the life and death of Jesus the will of God?
Did Jesus suffer on the cross by the will of God?
It was His will.: He didn't love Jesus.
It was against His will: The Roman empire was stronger than God.
He didn't care: So Jesus wasn't sent with a mission.
So; this also can be viewed in many ways.
The good part is that possibly most people don't end up in hell.
God told us that would be the case lucky for us he hasn't the power to do so....
I also sent this article to and asked this question of Martin Zender, as he talks about this kind of stuff a lot. Here was his response: :laughing7:
"Here's clear teaching for you: The writer of the article is full of crap. Man does not have a free will, and no verse in scripture says he does. Several verses contradict it.
Many people withstand God's will (thelo), but none can withstand His intention (boulema--see Rom. 9:19). For instance, God's revealed will is, "Thou shalt not commit murder." And yet He intended for the Jews to murder His son. God causes people to withstand His revealed will, in order to fulfill His ultimate intention. This can also be stated as the difference between the relative (thelo, will, revealed) and the absolute (boulema, intention, ultimate) viewpoint. This writer is taking verses from the relative perspective, and assuming that they are absolute truths. It a common but gigantic mistake. This writer makes man God, then whitewashes the corpse in theological jargon."
:cloud9: I love that, Doc. It states exactly (without knowing the Greek words) what God showed me as to how it works, that I shared a couple of months ago in the "car driving scene" I shared. Thanks for the blessing :girlheart: