Aionios kolasis

[Tim B]

Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.

I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.

Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction." 

If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."

Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.

[WhiteWings]

Tim,

May I suggest a LOT of reading:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://bible-truths.com/  -> halfway down the page LoF series
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ -> Last 10 articles on the left hand side
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id389.html -> The 2 Noble Berean books

Why so much reading?
My personal opinion is that a verse doesn't give much information. All verses can be twisted into whatever you like.
Only if you take many verses you will start to know that certain interpretations of the verse you mentioned don't line up with many other verses.
Read the 3 verses in my signature (end of this post) How can they align with 95% of humanity burning in hell forever or just don't exist anymore?

[jabcat]

Tim,

May I suggest a LOT of reading:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://bible-truths.com/  -> halfway down the page LoF series
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ -> Last 10 articles on the left hand side
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id389.html -> The 2 Noble Berean books

Why so much reading?
My personal opinion is that a verse doesn't give much information. All verses can be twisted into whatever you like.
Only if you take many verses you will start to know that certain interpretations of the verse you mentioned don't line up with many other verses.
Read the 3 verses in my signature (end of this post) How can they align with 95% of humanity burning in hell forever or just don't exist anymore?

:goodpost:  Hi Tim.  Place yourself totally in God's hands, and He will lead you.  He knows your name, and exactly what you need.

[legoman]

Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.

I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.

Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction." 

If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."

Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.

Hi!

WhiteWings and Jabcat gave you good advice.

One verse can be twisted either way you like.  Take a verse like Matthew 25:46 where it talks about everlasting punishment and everlasting life.  Eternal torment believers will point to this verse and say "AH HA.  This proves the punishment is the same length as the life - eternal for both!"

But then the universalist would say its not quite so simple.  Its actually "pertaining to the ages" for the life and the punishment.

So who do we believe?

The sum of thy word is TRUTH (Psalm 119:160).  We must read the WHOLE bible to get the picture of God's plan and his character.  A single verse does not make a doctrine or belief by itself - yet that is what the ET believers do with a handful of verses that mention "eternal fire" and "hell".

If eternal torment (or annihilation for that matter) is true, how do these verses make sense?

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved,
       all you ends of the earth;
       for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 26:9 ... When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all;
       he has compassion on all he has made.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

etc...

Read some of the articles WW pointed you to.  For example this one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html

There are literally hundreds (thousands?) of verses that fit with God's plan of saving all.  And then we have a handful of verses that speak of "eternal" fire and "eternal" torment - and "eternal" is not even the proper translation.  Perhaps our understanding of those few verses is not clear when the majority of the bible points to the salvation of all.

Of course deceivers will say "NO NO NO, CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, ALL DOES NOT MEAN ALL, BLAH BLAH BLAH"... don't believe them and see what the bible says for yourself.

The SUM of thy WORD is TRUTH.

Peace friend, enjoy the journey.

[WhiteWings]

A good start is checking every verse you have doubts about in Youngs Literal Translation.
With that free Bible you are halfway to UR.

Then take this in mind:
Fire
Very often fire isn't real fire. It's Gods essence. Jesus isn't a real lamb either.
Father says about himself "....I'm a refiners fire...a fullers soap..."
(ask if you want a list of similar verses)

Kolasis
Translated as torture by many ETs
It's first meaning is corrective punishment. Not beating the crap out of you for eternity.
Tertiary meaning is torture.
Surely ETs pick that one.
But is that right?
Tormented

928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}

Meaning: 

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 


Weird verse... what is the use of mentioning gold in hell. Only terror and ugly things there.
A little above God called Himself a refiner. What does a refiner do? A refiner melts poluted metal.
The the dirt floats on top and it gets removed.
Maybe we are gold with abit of pollution (sin) inside.
God does His best refining us.
While God does this "the Lamb and His angels watch''
I bet they have a black siliceous testing stone  in their hands.

EVERYONE is salted with fire. Salt is good...

Weird story....even more weird it is Biblically sound without twisting things or adding human opions.... :thumbsup:

[sven]

this might possibly help you:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4781.0

Kolasis
Translated as torture by many ETs
It's first meaning is corrective punishment. Not beating the crap out of you for eternity.
Tertiary meaning is torture.

I've never heard that one meaning of kolasis is to torture, basanon can mean to torture or to torment

[WhiteWings]

I've never heard that one meaning of kolasis is to torture, basanon can mean to torture or to torment

KOLASIS (2851)

Punishment (BAGD, Moulton & Milligan, TDNT, Vine)

Correction, punishment, penalty (Thayer)

Chastisement, correction, punishment (LS).

To punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering (Louw & Nida)
http://www.forananswer.org/Matthew/Mt25_46.htm

[sven]

To punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering (Louw & Nida)

I guess thats a kind of biased theological definition, might that be true? - I would never give anything on a theological dictionary

[WhiteWings]

I agree with you Sven.
I never claimed it was the correct defenition. I only tried to point out that 'everyone' searches until something is found to supports his/hers own case.

Same is true for Torment.
URs pick the primary 'teach' defenition.
ETs the 'torture' defenition

[sven]

for me all this definitions seem often so un-logical and incredible

why should aiônios mean eternal when aidios already does?

why should a word mean bot correction and torment when another word (basanon) already meant torment?

when Jesus meant eternal torment, why didn't he said it?, there are words in Greek having these meanings, but they don't appear in the bible where they claim it.

there is also another stronger term for punishment timôria, but Jesus did use the weaker term, would he have done this if he meant endless suffering? - I guess not

ps: Jehovah Witness explain kolasis as cutting off - which they interpret as eternal extinction by cutting of from life

[WhiteWings]

for me all this definitions seem often so un-logical and incredible

why should aiônios mean eternal when aidios already does?

why should a word mean bot correction and torment when another word (basanon) already meant torment?

Works this way:  :laughing7:
Pope: Hi Mr. Translator I heard you are not a heretic that doesn't believe in ET. Can you prove for me that this word means torture. If you can I won't even execute you...

Bit overdone ofcourse. Suppose they want to publish a KJV in modern English. Do you think Ray, Gary or any UR teacher makes the slightest chance? Even if they have 500 revelant master degrees in all sorta relevant studies.
I think not until hell freezes over. Translators either listen to who pays or are already in a certain doctrine.

[sven]

sometimes I have the impression (at least theological) dictionarys give words the meaning as they are translated with in popular translations, e.g. soul (psychê) is both in English and German Bibles about 30x translated with life, but psychê means soul not life, of course dictionaries will also give psychê this meaning life, even if it possibly never had that meaning

[WhiteWings]

A language lives. The meaning of words change.
That's why you need dictionaries from 4000 BC to 30 AD
Problem..... there are none.
Then people start to work backwards.
Because we our doctrine states punishment is eternal then of course that funny Greek word also means eternal.
Then later the dictionary is used as prove that it really means eternal.
Theology often is very much like politics....  :sigh:

psychê
Dutch dictinaries: Ghost, spirit, inside, inner-self
Last 2 words are about correct. I can't think of the right English words.

[sven]

thats the reason why I appreciate the concordant translation, each word is alyways translated the same so that the Bible itself defines the meaning of this word from context, but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic

[WhiteWings]

but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic

Perhaps a little.
I think at least part of Tims question is why the words are given a different meaning in UR and ET camps.
I very obvious question because it simply is true. Half of the books on the main site are about mistranslations....

Time for Tim to chime in :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, I have always stayed in the Hebrew because the language is so unique and I think it was the original language in the first place. The Bible codes discovery proved that the scribes did an excellent job of transcribing and preserving at least the first five books (Torah). Blessings....

[Tim B]

but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic

Perhaps a little.
I think at least part of Tims question is why the words are given a different meaning in UR and ET camps.
I very obvious question because it simply is true. Half of the books on the main site are about mistranslations....

Time for Tim to chime in :thumbsup:

Yeah, I guess that's more or less my question. I do seem to remember reading somewhere that Josephus (the Jewish historian) used either aionios to mean limited duration. Actually, I just found the quote, it was from another forum:

"Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.

Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing. "

Birdy_56 wrote it here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/623203-does-aion-aijwvn-mean-everlastng-3.html

Sounds like awesome news to me :)

[sven]

this is a great article concerning this topic:

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html

[FineLinen]

Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction." 

Hi there Tim, as you are most certainly aware aionios kolasis comes from the passage in Matthew 25 where Jesus Christ is speaking of virgins, servants of the master, and lastly but linked closely together, sheep and goats, the latter of whom go away into aionios kolasis. You will note, the Master is not speaking of sheep and swine, or sheep and dogs, but two clean animals. The primary meaning of kolasis is correction and it is rooted quite firmly in kolazo which means to trim and prune.

[WhiteWings]

this is a great article concerning this topic:

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html

Sven,

I've tried several times in the last 5 hours but the link seems dead?

[FineLinen]

this is a great article concerning this topic:

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html

Sven,

I've tried several times in the last 5 hours but the link seems dead?

W.W. the link is very much alive!

[WhiteWings]

Still nothing here.
I'll try tommorow at office.

[trettep]

Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.

I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.

Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction." 

If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."

Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.

I don't see aionios as meaning age-lasting at all.  My believe is that aionios conceals the endpoint.  In other words we have no understanding from aionios as to the end point of the duration of what aionios is describing.  So if we read aionios life - we have nothing to walk away with as to tell us how long the life is from the term aionios.  What I believe it does tell us is that continuing point.  In other words if something is aionios it means it CONTINUES.  Since aionios is the adjective form of age, I believe it means something that continues the age.  Many times we see it listed in texts as age-during.  I think what might make better sense to understand it is to use the words age-continuing.

As for anniliationism, I use to believe in that before universalism.  One of the greatest things I find in scripture refuting the annihilationist position is Moses willingness to be blotted out of the book of life if God didn't take away the sin of those that sinned against God.  Since Moses continued to follow God, then Moses must have been assurred that God would indeed remove their sins.

Paul

[sven]

As for anniliationism, I use to believe in that before universalism.  One of the greatest things I find in scripture refuting the annihilationist position is Moses willingness to be blotted out of the book of life if God didn't take away the sin of those that sinned against God.  Since Moses continued to follow God, then Moses must have been assurred that God would indeed remove their sins.

I don't want to defend anniliationism here but I think this is actually a good argument for it, Moses was not willing to suffer endless torment, but I guess he was willing to die for his people, to give up his eternal life, his immortality for the sake of his own people.

[FineLinen]

I don't see aionios as meaning age-lasting at all.  My believe is that aionios conceals the endpoint.

Hi there Paul: let's hear the Master of the Reconciliation defining what aionios means..

"This is zoe aionios that we may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You did send."

Thus while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/623203-does-aion-aijwvn-mean-everlastng.html