Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.
I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.
Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction."
If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."
Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.
Tim,
May I suggest a LOT of reading:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://bible-truths.com/ -> halfway down the page LoF series
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ -> Last 10 articles on the left hand side
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id389.html -> The 2 Noble Berean books
Why so much reading?
My personal opinion is that a verse doesn't give much information. All verses can be twisted into whatever you like.
Only if you take many verses you will start to know that certain interpretations of the verse you mentioned don't line up with many other verses.
Read the 3 verses in my signature (end of this post) How can they align with 95% of humanity burning in hell forever or just don't exist anymore?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 27, 2009, 07:44:38 AM
Tim,
May I suggest a LOT of reading:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://bible-truths.com/ -> halfway down the page LoF series
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/ -> Last 10 articles on the left hand side
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id389.html -> The 2 Noble Berean books
Why so much reading?
My personal opinion is that a verse doesn't give much information. All verses can be twisted into whatever you like.
Only if you take many verses you will start to know that certain interpretations of the verse you mentioned don't line up with many other verses.
Read the 3 verses in my signature (end of this post) How can they align with 95% of humanity burning in hell forever or just don't exist anymore?
:goodpost: Hi Tim. Place yourself totally in God's hands, and He will lead you. He knows your name, and exactly what you need.
Quote from: Tim B on April 27, 2009, 07:11:58 AM
Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.
I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.
Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction."
If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."
Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.
Hi!
WhiteWings and Jabcat gave you good advice.
One verse can be twisted either way you like. Take a verse like Matthew 25:46 where it talks about everlasting punishment and everlasting life. Eternal torment believers will point to this verse and say "AH HA. This proves the punishment is the same length as the life - eternal for both!"
But then the universalist would say its not quite so simple. Its actually "pertaining to the ages" for the life and the punishment.
So who do we believe?
The sum of thy word is TRUTH (Psalm 119:160). We must read the WHOLE bible to get the picture of God's plan and his character. A single verse does not make a doctrine or belief by itself - yet that is what the ET believers do with a handful of verses that mention "eternal fire" and "hell".
If eternal torment (or annihilation for that matter) is true, how do these verses make sense?
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 26:9 ... When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
etc...
Read some of the articles WW pointed you to. For example this one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
There are literally hundreds (thousands?) of verses that fit with God's plan of saving all. And then we have a handful of verses that speak of "eternal" fire and "eternal" torment - and "eternal" is not even the proper translation. Perhaps our understanding of those few verses is not clear when the majority of the bible points to the salvation of all.
Of course deceivers will say "NO NO NO, CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, ALL DOES NOT MEAN ALL, BLAH BLAH BLAH"... don't believe them and see what the bible says for yourself.
The SUM of thy WORD is TRUTH.
Peace friend, enjoy the journey.
A good start is checking every verse you have doubts about in Youngs Literal Translation.
With that free Bible you are halfway to UR.
Then take this in mind:
Fire
Very often fire isn't real fire. It's Gods essence. Jesus isn't a real lamb either.
Father says about himself "....I'm a refiners fire...a fullers soap..."
(ask if you want a list of similar verses)
Kolasis
Translated as torture by many ETs
It's first meaning is corrective punishment. Not beating the crap out of you for eternity.
Tertiary meaning is torture.
Surely ETs pick that one.
But is that right?
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Weird verse... what is the use of mentioning gold in hell. Only terror and ugly things there.
A little above God called Himself a refiner. What does a refiner do? A refiner melts poluted metal.
The the dirt floats on top and it gets removed.
Maybe we are gold with abit of pollution (sin) inside.
God does His best refining us.
While God does this "the Lamb and His angels watch''
I bet they have a black siliceous testing stone in their hands.
EVERYONE is salted with fire. Salt is good...
Weird story....even more weird it is Biblically sound without twisting things or adding human opions.... :thumbsup:
this might possibly help you:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4781.0
QuoteKolasis
Translated as torture by many ETs
It's first meaning is corrective punishment. Not beating the crap out of you for eternity.
Tertiary meaning is torture.
I've never heard that one meaning of
kolasis is to torture,
basanon can mean to torture or to torment
QuoteI've never heard that one meaning of kolasis is to torture, basanon can mean to torture or to torment
KOLASIS (2851)
Punishment (BAGD, Moulton & Milligan, TDNT, Vine)
Correction, punishment, penalty (Thayer)
Chastisement, correction, punishment (LS).
To punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering (Louw & Nida)
http://www.forananswer.org/Matthew/Mt25_46.htm
QuoteTo punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering (Louw & Nida)
I guess thats a kind of biased theological definition, might that be true? - I would never give anything on a theological dictionary
I agree with you Sven.
I never claimed it was the correct defenition. I only tried to point out that 'everyone' searches until something is found to supports his/hers own case.
Same is true for Torment.
URs pick the primary 'teach' defenition.
ETs the 'torture' defenition
for me all this definitions seem often so un-logical and incredible
why should aiônios mean eternal when aidios already does?
why should a word mean bot correction and torment when another word (basanon) already meant torment?
when Jesus meant eternal torment, why didn't he said it?, there are words in Greek having these meanings, but they don't appear in the bible where they claim it.
there is also another stronger term for punishment timôria, but Jesus did use the weaker term, would he have done this if he meant endless suffering? - I guess not
ps: Jehovah Witness explain kolasis as cutting off - which they interpret as eternal extinction by cutting of from life
Quote from: sven on April 27, 2009, 08:03:04 PM
for me all this definitions seem often so un-logical and incredible
why should aiônios mean eternal when aidios already does?
why should a word mean bot correction and torment when another word (basanon) already meant torment?
Works this way: :laughing7:
Pope: Hi Mr. Translator I heard you are not a heretic that doesn't believe in ET. Can you prove for me that this word means torture. If you can I won't even execute you...
Bit overdone ofcourse. Suppose they want to publish a KJV in modern English. Do you think Ray, Gary or any UR teacher makes the slightest chance? Even if they have 500 revelant master degrees in all sorta relevant studies.
I think not until hell freezes over. Translators either listen to who pays or are already in a certain doctrine.
sometimes I have the impression (at least theological) dictionarys give words the meaning as they are translated with in popular translations, e.g. soul (psychê) is both in English and German Bibles about 30x translated with life, but psychê means soul not life, of course dictionaries will also give psychê this meaning life, even if it possibly never had that meaning
A language lives. The meaning of words change.
That's why you need dictionaries from 4000 BC to 30 AD
Problem..... there are none.
Then people start to work backwards.
Because we our doctrine states punishment is eternal then of course that funny Greek word also means eternal.
Then later the dictionary is used as prove that it really means eternal.
Theology often is very much like politics.... :sigh:
psychê
Dutch dictinaries: Ghost, spirit, inside, inner-self
Last 2 words are about correct. I can't think of the right English words.
thats the reason why I appreciate the concordant translation, each word is alyways translated the same so that the Bible itself defines the meaning of this word from context, but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic
Quote from: sven on April 27, 2009, 09:32:50 PM
but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic
Perhaps a little.
I think at least part of Tims question is why the words are given a different meaning in UR and ET camps.
I very obvious question because it simply is true. Half of the books on the main site are about mistranslations....
Time for Tim to chime in :thumbsup:
:cloud9: You know, I have always stayed in the Hebrew because the language is so unique and I think it was the original language in the first place. The Bible codes discovery proved that the scribes did an excellent job of transcribing and preserving at least the first five books (Torah). Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 27, 2009, 11:44:21 PM
Quote from: sven on April 27, 2009, 09:32:50 PM
but I guess we went far off topic though it's an interesting topic
Perhaps a little.
I think at least part of Tims question is why the words are given a different meaning in UR and ET camps.
I very obvious question because it simply is true. Half of the books on the main site are about mistranslations....
Time for Tim to chime in :thumbsup:
Yeah, I guess that's more or less my question. I do seem to remember reading somewhere that Josephus (the Jewish historian) used either aionios to mean limited duration. Actually, I just found the quote, it was from another forum:
"Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.
Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing. "
Birdy_56 wrote it here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/623203-does-aion-aijwvn-mean-everlastng-3.html
Sounds like awesome news to me :)
this is a great article concerning this topic:
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html
Quote from: Tim B on April 27, 2009, 07:11:58 AM
Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction."
Hi there Tim, as you are most certainly aware aionios kolasis comes from the passage in Matthew 25 where Jesus Christ is speaking of virgins, servants of the master, and lastly but linked closely together, sheep and goats, the latter of whom go away into aionios kolasis. You will note, the Master is not speaking of sheep and swine, or sheep and dogs, but two clean animals. The primary meaning of kolasis is correction and it is rooted quite firmly in kolazo which means to trim and prune.
Quote from: sven on April 28, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
this is a great article concerning this topic:
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html
Sven,
I've tried several times in the last 5 hours but the link seems dead?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 10:29:22 PM
Quote from: sven on April 28, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
this is a great article concerning this topic:
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html
Sven,
I've tried several times in the last 5 hours but the link seems dead?
W.W. the link is very much alive!
Still nothing here.
I'll try tommorow at office.
Quote from: Tim B on April 27, 2009, 07:11:58 AM
Hey guys! I'm currently stuck between two worldviews: annihilation and Christian universalism.
I recently came to believing in the annihilation of the "damned" recently after praying to God and asking him to reveal to me the truth of Hell. Quite honestly I was having trouble believing in the idea of eternal torment for those who rejected Jesus and could not, for the life of me, seem to find any trust in a God who seemingly, so often, lost control of the sinner and therefore, after they died, sent them to hell for all eternity. So shortly after asking God to reveal to me the truth I ran across a believer who did not believe in everlasting torment, but rather, everlasting annihilation. That is, the "damned" were simply annihilated rather then endlessly tortured. This made more sense to me and I thanked God that he had revealed this to me. But I'm beginning to believe that this revelation was only a precursor to what he wished to show me as I have now stumbled upon websites which suggest that Christ is the Savior of literally ALL men and not simply those who, while on this Earth, believe in him. I find the arguments to be quite convincing, at least in general, and the idea of universal salvation through Christ makes more sense in looking at God as a loving Father, a being of infinite mercy as well as unending grace.
Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction."
If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."
Thanks a lot guys,
Tim B.
I don't see aionios as meaning age-lasting at all. My believe is that aionios conceals the endpoint. In other words we have no understanding from aionios as to the end point of the duration of what aionios is describing. So if we read aionios life - we have nothing to walk away with as to tell us how long the life is from the term aionios. What I believe it does tell us is that continuing point. In other words if something is aionios it means it CONTINUES. Since aionios is the adjective form of age, I believe it means something that continues the age. Many times we see it listed in texts as age-during. I think what might make better sense to understand it is to use the words
age-continuing.
As for anniliationism, I use to believe in that before universalism. One of the greatest things I find in scripture refuting the annihilationist position is Moses willingness to be blotted out of the book of life if God didn't take away the sin of those that sinned against God. Since Moses continued to follow God, then Moses must have been assurred that God would indeed remove their sins.
Paul
QuoteAs for anniliationism, I use to believe in that before universalism. One of the greatest things I find in scripture refuting the annihilationist position is Moses willingness to be blotted out of the book of life if God didn't take away the sin of those that sinned against God. Since Moses continued to follow God, then Moses must have been assurred that God would indeed remove their sins.
I don't want to defend anniliationism here but I think this is actually a good argument for it, Moses was not willing to suffer endless torment, but I guess he was willing to die for his people, to give up his eternal life, his immortality for the sake of his own people.
Quote from: trettep on April 29, 2009, 08:47:14 PM
I don't see aionios as meaning age-lasting at all. My believe is that aionios conceals the endpoint.
Hi there Paul: let's hear the Master of the Reconciliation defining what aionios means..
"This is zoe aionios that we may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You did send."
QuoteThus while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/623203-does-aion-aijwvn-mean-everlastng.html
Quote from: Tim B on April 27, 2009, 07:11:58 AM
Aside from other questions I might have though, the term "aionios kolasis" is creating a stumbling block for me. Believers in a Hell of endless torment seem to think that this means "eternal punishment," while Christian Universalists seem to think of it as "age-lasting correction." But seeing as, obviously, people hold different opinions, I'm not sure which to believe. Obviously "unending punishment" would still make sense from an annihilation stand point, but honestly I'd rather it mean "age-lasting correction."
If you guys could help me see the issue regarding this phrase more clearly, that'd be awesome. Especially convincing to me would be some sort of "debate" between a Hell believer and Universalist in which the Hell believer conceded to the "age-lasting" definition of "aionios kolasis."
Hi Tim, let me take a crack at your question, as I have been dealing with this argument for almost a year now. I'm not going to present this as a debate per se, but I'll list the steps I have taken when trying to prove my point.
The first thing we have to help people realize is that the Greek "aionios" does not ALWAYS mean "everlasting." (Some people will say it NEVER means everlasting, but frankly I don't want to fight that fight) It's easy enough to show them Titus 1:2 where it's translated "long ages ago" or Jude 7 where Sodom is said to have been punished with "eternal fire"(is Sodom still burning?) and get them to concede the point. Now the question has changed to "how do we determine when aionios means everlasting and when does it mean something else? The answer, as usual, is that we get the precise meaning of words from their context - so let's look at the context.
The second point we have to make in our discussion is that the combination of "aionios kolasis" only appears once in the Bible, and that of course is in Matthew 25: 46 - "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life ." (NASB) This is by far the most popular verse people bring up to show me that punishment is everlasting, their point being that if punishment isn't everlasting in this verse than life isn't everlasting either. Again it's easy to point out the fallacy of that statement. First I confirm that the word itself is an adjective, and then I ask them if in the sentence, "The big man drove his big tractor into the big barn" the man, tractor, and barn are all the same size? Of course the answer is no, and so I simply say that in the same way "punishment" and "life" don't have to share the same duration in Matt. 25:46.
Now I surprise them by saying that even though the adjective aionios doesn't have to mean the same thing here, I agree with them that it does. But in neither case do I think it means "everlasting." I begin this part of the discussion by looking into the root word of aionios, "aion." Again it's easy to show how it means "age". (use a concordance to look up where the word is used substituting "age" everytime) In English we don't have an adjective built off of the word age, but in Greek it's similiar to how we use the adjective "powerful" from the noun "power". A "powerful man" might also be called a "man of power", so I make the case that aionios is simply "of the age" - with the context telling us WHICH age we're talking about. Again I'll walk them through the scriptures substituting "of the age" where it reads "eternal" and they are surprised at how well it works.
So finally, what is the context of Matt 25:46? Which age is aionios referring to here? Matt 25:46 is last verse of a section beginning in verse 31, which gives us the timeframe of the return of Christ at the beginning of the Milleniel Kingdom, also know as "the Kingdom Age." So verse 46 can be read, "These will go away into the punishment of the Kingdom Age, but the righteous into the life of the Kingdom Age ." What does the life of the Kingdom Age look like? Fine Linen above has already pointed out John 17:3, and you can also see it prophesied in Ezekiel 36:23-28.
And what about "the punishment of the Kingdom Age", what does that look like? Paul defines this punishment for us in 2 Thess. 1:6-10 as being away from the presence of the Lord and His power. In other words, outside of the kingdom. (Again the context is the earthly return of Christ at the beginning of the Kingdom Age, and again aionios is mistranslated as "eternal.") The good news for those so punished is that the Kingdom Age is NOT everlasting - and eventually all will be made righteous.
I didn't intend to go on at such length here. I hope it helped. I wish I could tell you that this process changed peoples minds about eternal torment, but unfortunately the best result I've seen is those with honest hearts having to stop and think about their position. Hopefully the conversations will continue.
Another way to look at aionios aionion that can be helpful as well, is that it has less to do with duration and more to do with quality. In other words, aionios/ aionion is more of a statement of quality than quantity, as demonstrated by the verse; John 17:3 "Now it is eonian (aionios) life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ."
In other words, knowing God is the aionios life. It has nothing to do with duration.
Hi Mr.Irrelevant,
Thanks for your post, it made me realize something:
2 Thes 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Anyone see the problem here? If one believes in eternal torment, what is that eternal torment? Destruction away from the presence of the Lord, or torment in the presence of the Lord? It can't be both! Yet another nail in the coffin for ET...
It gives some interesting clues for the UR perspective. It sounds like while the elect are reigning in the millenium, the wicked are sent away to be not in the presence of God. This is probably reference to the outer darkness - weeping and gnashing of teeth? Or is this just unconscious death?
Then at the GWT they are thrown into the LoF which is when there is torment in the presence of the lamb.
Something I was thinking of is the word punishment. Everlasting punishment sounds like something that has an ending. Everlasting punishing sounds more like a never ending thing.
What I mean is, if the lesson that was learned from the punishment last forever, then it would be everlasting punishment. If you received everlasting punishing, then the correction would not end. Hope that made sense. :mblush:
CHB
Literal translations like YLT write age-during.
At first I thought torment was/is another word for torture. (English is not my 1st language)
But it is not.
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
Quoteto test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
As you see torture is part of the defenition; but not the primary.
It is derived from
Quote931 ba,sanoj basanos {bas'-an-os}
Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth 3) torture, torment, acute pains 3a) of the pains of a disease 3b) of those in hell after death
And there we have that stone again.
Tests are about results. If it lasts eternally there is no result.
Will Jesus spend eterinity in hell watching? I guess Jesus is omipresent and can be in hell and heaven at the same time. But angels?
QuoteIt sounds like while the elect are reigning in the millenium
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Here it comes...... :laughing7:
1 Corinthians 11:32 and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened .... => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10 .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. => the result of judgement
Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning:
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning:
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning:
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
Judged => Chastened => Teaching => Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love
Quote from: legoman on May 01, 2009, 03:42:41 PM
Hi Mr.Irrelevant,
Thanks for your post, it made me realize something:
2 Thes 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Anyone see the problem here? If one believes in eternal torment, what is that eternal torment? Destruction away from the presence of the Lord, or torment in the presence of the Lord? It can't be both! Yet another nail in the coffin for ET...
Let me share another translation which clears up the confusion:
2Th 1:9 These shall pay a penalty--eonian destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might,
Rev 14:10 then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
That little word "away" is neither in the Greek, nor in the Aramaic. The source of the destruction is his presence of glory. Thus the torment is in his presence, before his face.
Ron
Hey Ron,
That's interesting, thanks for pointing that out. The word in question is "apo" which is a preposition with two meanings, the first is "away from" and the second is "originating from."
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=575 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=575)
So I guess this passage can be read either way.
Jim
Thanks for all your replies guys, it's very encouraging! :bigGrin:
God & Jesus = WIN lol
concerning 2Th 1:9 if have a question, the Greek word is olethros (oleJroV) as far as I know, German bibles translate it as perdition, while destruction implies extinction, perdition might imply conscious suffering (but not necessarily).
the same word is used in 1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
what do you think is meant in 1 Corinthians 5:5; the extinction of an allegorical flesh, maybe the carnal mind - or the perdition of this man's literal flesh?
Quote from: Tim B on May 03, 2009, 09:00:02 PM
Thanks for all your replies guys, it's very encouraging! :bigGrin:
God & Jesus = WIN lol
Tim,
Don't forced the HS!
He likes a pat on the back too. :laughing7: