God is not obligated to save anyone (Who really deserves to be saved?)

[legoman]

More fun thoughts from our Calvinist friends:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_jKudID3k&feature=channel

Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Many a person who holds to the notion that they save themselves which would be the only reason that God saves them say that Calvinism would make God unjust because everyone *deserves* a chance for salvation. Think about this for a second. What they are saying is that the One you have sinned against is *obligated* to offer you complete pardon or He is not just. Does this make any sense? Of course it doesn't. All He is obligated to give us seeing that we are guilty before Him is hell if He certainly is just.

When you press the opposition on this issue, what they are essentially objecting to is very often the notion that everyone is born guilty in Adam (original sin). They don't understand what *guilty* is, and they want to make God into less of a just being than we would expect our normal traffic court judge to be. This notion that people *deserve* a chance to be pardoned would be much like someone who has been declared guilty by a court of murdering someone and sentenced to the death penalty. The person who is claiming that God would be unjust if He didn't give the person who's sinned against Him an option for pardon would have to hold that the judge who sentenced the man who was clearly guilty of murder would be unjust by not giving the man the option to walk free if the man wanted to. It boggles the mind that there are people out there who would hold that the latter situation doesn't make sense yet they hold the Creator of the judge to a lower standard regarding justice than they do the human judge in our scenario!


The above speaker is making the case for why God is not obligated to save anyone - because we are all sinners.  Even though God created us this way.  Even though God knew we would all be sinners.  Even though God intended it all to work out this way.  And this is fair and just because God is fair and just.


This cuts right to the heart of the matter - we are all sinners, God created the world so that we would sin, yet God hates sin.  Why would the world be in this state if God did not intend it?  And why would God then blame us and hold us responsible?  Truthfully, we will be accountable for what we will do.  We must repent from our sins.  Yet God set it all up this way.  I would suggest it is a giant training lesson.  We are still in school, and no where near graduating yet.

Discuss.

[WhiteWings]

God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:

[WhiteWings]

Many a person who holds to the notion that they save themselves which would be the only reason that God saves them say that Calvinism would make God unjust because everyone *deserves* a chance for salvation. Think about this for a second. What they are saying is that the One you have sinned against is *obligated* to offer you complete pardon or He is not just. Does this make any sense? Of course it doesn't.

Indeed it doesn't make sense mr. Sadinism.
God is no respector of persons. That means He makes no difference between anyone in His creation.
Maybe I'm nitpicking a little here but choosing a few people for eternal bliss in heaven and other for eternal torture does sound slightly unequal to me.

[legoman]

God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:

Good points as always WW.  God has given us promises:
- He is Love
- He loves His entire creation
- He is willing to save the world
- He does not lie
- He will not fail

We can all imagine some kind of an evil tyrant God that purposely creates humanity, puts them in a world similar to this one, and then sends almost every single human to eternal torment in fire upon death.  (Hey this sounds like the God of mainstream Christianity) If God did not give the above promises, then we could expect nothing of him.  He would not be obligated to save anyone.  But because He has given us these promises, He has made the obligation Himself!

[WhiteWings]

The person who is claiming that God would be unjust if He didn't give the person who's sinned against Him

All sinned.

an option for pardon would have to hold that the judge who sentenced the man who was clearly guilty of murder would be unjust by not giving the man the option to walk free if the man wanted to.

Same crime, same time.
But you probebly where a Sout African judge in the old days. The darker the skin the higher the degree of punishment for the same crime.

It boggles the mind that there are people out there who would hold that the latter situation doesn't make sense yet they hold the Creator of the judge to a lower standard regarding justice than they do the human judge in our scenario!

You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...

[legoman]

You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...

Agreed... I don't know why but this kind of silly illogical argument gets me in a slightly angered state... it motivates me to spread the UR message more - but I just don't know how to effectively.  So many people are misled and are eating this gobbly-gook up.  Yet they struggle with it - its so sad.

Side question - is there anything special you need to do to add a comment to a youtube video?  For some reason I can't add one, to most any video.  I've tried firefox and IE.

Peace...

[WhiteWings]

You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...

Agreed... I don't know why but this kind of silly illogical argument gets me in a slightly angered state...

If I would put on a Christian hat I would say the HS inside of you stirs Himself...

it motivates me to spread the UR message more - but I just don't know how to effectively.

I fear it's of not much use.
Most people that believe that stuff are very dedicated. Their knowledge is lightyears ahead of mine. But still they don't see the conflicts. I see some conflicts. I guess I'm not hindred by any knowledge  :laughing7:
I think the most effective would be to have some clear to-the-point hard hitting verses and proves for the doubters that are a little open to it. When there is a small breach in the defences.....
You already know what their questions will be. -> The top 10 fire verses.

So many people are misled and are eating this gobbly-gook up. 

Hitler said the bigger the lie the easier it's to believe. It seems he was at least right once in his life...

Side question - is there anything special you need to do to add a comment to a youtube video?  For some reason I can't add one, to most any video.  I've tried firefox and IE.

[aspiring son]

The w

You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...

The whole basis for their argument is that God did not mean for the fall of man to happen; yet in the same breath say that God ordained all things and who will be saved and who will not. The contradictions are endless in christendom

Grace and peace

[Doc]

WW already said it. God obligated himself by making the promise.

[martincisneros]

Haven't looked at the rest of the responses yet.  Just an immediate knee jerk reaction to the title of the thread:  So, because God is bigger, wiser, and richer, and let's not forget the Sovereign, we're to understand from the Calvinist that different laws of parenting apply to God?  A Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own??  Show me the philosophy professor that wouldn't flunk someone's rear end on that kind of logic!  as well as walk away thanking God that they're not a Christian with such twisted thinking that's supposed to be sanctified reasoning and a renewed mind. 

They'll rejoice and thank God for their supposed reprobation as they go from there to care for others and to write another book on the rational of unbelief.  What ever happened to the Scriptures in their thinking of being conformed to the image of Christ and being an imitator, or in the KJV vernacular, follower of God?  If we're to follow St. Paul as St. Paul follows Christ, does this mean that St. Paul taught irresponsibility for one's own?  Sovereignty multiplies the responsibility rather than diminishes it.  Even if God weren't love, but were merely a God of love as the Calvinist has always twisted the Scriptures into saying, to the degree that He had any access to love whatsoever there would be the pressure to do all within His own power to satiate that love in the well being of those cared about. 

Ah, but then there's the occasional twisting of Scripture that some will try to get into with John 17 and their ideas of an elect that everlastingly excludes everyone else, but without getting into the nausiating details of that, the important factor is that John 17 says that with the glory of God in the Church through Christ Jesus throughout all ages, as the book of Ephesians will likewise include this concept brought out in John's Gospel, the purpose told to us in John 17 is so that the world will believe.  Now, if the world believes, are we to conclude that it's the faith of demons in the Calvinist paradigm and what the Calvinists think of that in their paradigm?  If we go there, then whose to say the very Calvinist talking with us isn't speaking with the faith of a demon since they're from this world? 

If they are, does something not scream in their hearts that they would hope that God would be better than their theology at least to them and their loved ones?  And if to them, then why not to others and to the whole world?  Thankfully, the Scriptures are abundantly clear that because the Blood was shed for all, and because Jesus is the covenantal ransom for all, therefore all must come under the yoke of Christ in the fullness of time and we're assured in the Scriptures that His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  He always leads us in triumph in Christ Jesus!  The Calvinist's view of eschatology when it enters into their view of eternity necessarily makes Christ Jesus a liar Who said He was meek and lowly of heart, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and that we would have rest for our souls.  It necessarily requires the modern Calvinistic invention of God lobotomizing everyone in heaven to keep them from ever remembering how far grace didn't reach.

[martincisneros]

On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account.  And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments.  Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos.  So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet.  I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly.  Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software.  I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted.  And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later.  YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that.  I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby.  When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s.  You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far.  Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.

[legoman]

Haven't looked at the rest of the responses yet.  Just an immediate knee jerk reaction to the title of the thread:  So, because God is bigger, wiser, and richer, and let's not forget the Sovereign, we're to understand from the Calvinist that different laws of parenting apply to God?  A Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own??  Show me the philosophy professor that wouldn't flunk someone's rear end on that kind of logic!  as well as walk away thanking God that they're not a Christian with such twisted thinking that's supposed to be sanctified reasoning and a renewed mind. 

They'll rejoice and thank God for their supposed reprobation as they go from there to care for others and to write another book on the rational of unbelief.  What ever happened to the Scriptures in their thinking of being conformed to the image of Christ and being an imitator, or in the KJV vernacular, follower of God?  If we're to follow St. Paul as St. Paul follows Christ, does this mean that St. Paul taught irresponsibility for one's own?  Sovereignty multiplies the responsibility rather than diminishes it.  Even if God weren't love, but were merely a God of love as the Calvinist has always twisted the Scriptures into saying, to the degree that He had any access to love whatsoever there would be the pressure to do all within His own power to satiate that love in the well being of those cared about. 

Ah, but then there's the occasional twisting of Scripture that some will try to get into with John 17 and their ideas of an elect that everlastingly excludes everyone else, but without getting into the nausiating details of that, the important factor is that John 17 says that with the glory of God in the Church through Christ Jesus throughout all ages, as the book of Ephesians will likewise include this concept brought out in John's Gospel, the purpose told to us in John 17 is so that the world will believe.  Now, if the world believes, are we to conclude that it's the faith of demons in the Calvinist paradigm and what the Calvinists think of that in their paradigm?  If we go there, then whose to say the very Calvinist talking with us isn't speaking with the faith of a demon since they're from this world? 

If they are, does something not scream in their hearts that they would hope that God would be better than their theology at least to them and their loved ones?  And if to them, then why not to others and to the whole world?  Thankfully, the Scriptures are abundantly clear that because the Blood was shed for all, and because Jesus is the covenantal ransom for all, therefore all must come under the yoke of Christ in the fullness of time and we're assured in the Scriptures that His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  He always leads us in triumph in Christ Jesus!  The Calvinist's view of eschatology when it enters into their view of eternity necessarily makes Christ Jesus a liar Who said He was meek and lowly of heart, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and that we would have rest for our souls.  It necessarily requires the modern Calvinistic invention of God lobotomizing everyone in heaven to keep them from ever remembering how far grace didn't reach.

I like your initial knee-jerk response!   :happy3:

Here is my initial knee-jerk response:  He created us didn't he?  Why on earth would he not save us?  This is assuming he is GOOD, ALL-POWERFUL and SOVEREIGN.  If He is those things, then he will save us.  Seems pretty straight-forward.

[legoman]

On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account.  And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments.  Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos.  So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet.  I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly.  Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software.  I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted.  And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later.  YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that.  I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby.  When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s.  You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far.  Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.

Thanks Martin.  I have an account and I am logged in.  I didn't realize that the video owner had the option to reject your comments.  I will have to go back to several video's I attempted to leave comments for.  From other comments I've read, it looked like you could just post anything.  But perhaps not...

So far it seems like I've only successfully posted 1 comment in about 20 attempts or so, but I will have to double check.

[legoman]

A Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own?? 

This really gets me.  Apparently humans are more loving than our infinite God because no human father would torment their own child for a week let alone eternity.  Yet when it comes to God the father of all, they have no problem attributing the worst torture mankind can think of to him.

Are humans more loving than God?

No no you are using "human logic" they will say.  Human logic is not God's way.  It doesn't apply to God, His ways are higher than ours, so even though ET may not make sense, it is still right for God to do it.

ARGHH! :BangHead:

You better believe God's ways are higher than man's ways!... they have no idea.

Peace.

[legoman]

On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account.  And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments.  Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos.  So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet.  I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly.  Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software.  I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted.  And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later.  YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that.  I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby.  When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s.  You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far.  Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.

Thanks Martin.  I have an account and I am logged in.  I didn't realize that the video owner had the option to reject your comments.  I will have to go back to several video's I attempted to leave comments for.  From other comments I've read, it looked like you could just post anything.  But perhaps not...

So far it seems like I've only successfully posted 1 comment in about 20 attempts or so, but I will have to double check.

Haha I figured it out!  Apparently youtube comments doesn't like it when you include a web page address.  Without the web address my comments work fine.

Youtube hell videos, look out, here I come...  :bigGrin:

[fullarmor2]

No no you are using "human logic" they will say.  Human logic is not God's way.  It doesn't apply to God, His ways are higher than ours, so even though ET may not make sense, it is still right for God to do it.

ARGHH! :BangHead:

   I have heard that response also.   And it makes no sense.    Didn't God create us to be in relationship with him? And to be able to understand God better than that?    And didn't God  say to us,  "come let us reason together" ?   
If we are not capable of understanding  how God reasons,     then why that verse?        I think we are capable of thinking the way God thinks about things,   and of understanding or knowing what God thinks about this or that.  To include doctrines. 

[legoman]

   I have heard that response also.   And it makes no sense.    Didn't God create us to be in relationship with him? And to be able to understand God better than that?    And didn't God  say to us,  "come let us reason together" ?   
If we are not capable of understanding  how God reasons,     then why that verse?        I think we are capable of thinking the way God thinks about things,   and of understanding or knowing what God thinks about this or that.  To include doctrines. 

Exactly.

Isaiah 55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts


This verse is meaning there are things about God's plan that we don't understand because He is omniscient and we are not.  For example...

If God is working all things for the ultimate good:
- why are their evil men who abuse and murder little children?
- why did Hitler have to torture and kill millions of people?
etc.

What the above verse is telling us, even though we can't see it right now, that good will even come from the most evil acts that have occured.

The above verse should not be used to justify something obviously cruel to us (ie. infinite punishment/torment), and instead to call that something "good", just because God "apparently does it".  Woe to those that call evil good and good evil.  Those that call hell "good" are deceived.

[Zeek]

Isaiah 55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts

1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Believe it, and walk in victory.  What we believe is our reality.

If you believe you don't have the mind of Christ, and don't know HIS thoughts (I and the father are one), your belief will manifest your reality.  A life of defeat, not measuring up.


Mar 11:23  For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Pro 18:21  Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

I AM has no "i'm not".


Isa 54:17  No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

[MusicLover123]

If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?

If you are a firefighter,, are you obligated to save those victims burning in buildings?

[GodIsLove]

If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?

Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?

I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.

Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.

And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.

And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??

[MusicLover123]

If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?

Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?

I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.

Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.

And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.

And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??

Whoops...

I was being sarcastic, thinking that the answer you gave was already evident. Thanks for your thoughts, though.

[rosered]

 
  I just read this morning and it is a perfect answer  for this     statement/ post  to me  ,  the Word sure does keep us in line  with Gods desire for us that are trying to live  in Christ image and likeness .

For me ,and my own  :2c:  I believe that is what is wrong  with mankind , they do not want to read the Bible much less obey it , if they stay ignorant of GODS  law they do not have to  change but keep the best of both worlds   and that is not possible the scriptures says  , we will love one and hate the other    , we  basically will love evil and hate the good or  love the good and hate the evil   , but we first  have to know what the evil GOD hates  is first  in order to want to change   for the better  ,and  be like the   Lord  and have  a heavenly Father  to  honor .

Colossians 3 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
3 If then you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.

3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.

5 So kill (deaden, [a]deprive of power) the evil desire lurking in your members [those animal impulses and all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]: sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites, unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness, for that is idolatry (the deifying of self and other created things instead of God).

6 It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will),

7 Among whom you also once walked, when you were living in and addicted to [such practices].

8 But now put away and rid yourselves [completely] of all these things: anger, rage, bad feeling toward others, curses and slander, and foulmouthed abuse and shameful utterances from your lips!

9 Do not lie to one another, for you have stripped off the old (unregenerate) self with its evil practices,

10 And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it.

11 [In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There [c]is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [[d]who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [[e]everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].

12 Clothe yourselves therefore, as God's own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself, by putting on behavior marked by] tenderhearted pity and mercy, kind feeling, a lowly opinion of yourselves, gentle ways, [and] patience [which is tireless and long-suffering, and has the power to endure whatever comes, with good temper].

13 Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive].

14 And above all these [put on] love and enfold yourselves with the bond of perfectness [which binds everything together completely in ideal harmony].

15 And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].

16 Let the word [spoken by] Christ (the Messiah) have its home [in your hearts and minds] and dwell in you in [all its] richness, as you teach and admonish and train one another in all insight and intelligence and wisdom [in spiritual things, and as you sing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody to God with [His] grace in your hearts.

17 And whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in [dependence upon] His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him.

18 Wives, be subject to your husbands [subordinate and adapt yourselves to them], as is right and fitting and your proper duty in the Lord.

19 Husbands, love your wives [be affectionate and sympathetic with them] and do not be harsh or bitter or resentful toward them.

20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this is pleasing to the Lord.

21 Fathers, do not provoke or irritate or fret your children [do not be hard on them or harass them], lest they become discouraged and sullen and morose and feel inferior and frustrated. [Do not break their spirit.]

22 Servants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not only when their eyes are on you as pleasers of men, but in simplicity of purpose [with all your heart] because of your reverence for the Lord and as a sincere expression of your devotion to Him.

23 Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,

24 Knowing [with all certainty] that it is from the Lord [and not from men] that you will receive the inheritance which is your [real] reward. [The One Whom] you are actually serving [is] the Lord Christ (the Messiah).

25 For he who deals wrongfully will [reap the fruit of his folly and] be punished for his wrongdoing. And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what a person's position may be, whether he is the slave or the master].

[Dandelion]

My logic. I apologize for only skimming the rest of the replies.

God made us in His image and likeness. He tells us through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit, through nature, that He loves us.

We read in the Bible that Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

If we are told that He counts every hair on our head; that we are worth much more than the sparrows and the lilies; that even if our mother and father forsake us, that He will never forsake us; that He will leave the 99 and look for the one that is lost....

We all have sinned and deserve death.....yet, Jesus came to conquer death...that will be the last thing that is brought under His submission. He came to save us, and died a horrible death to do so.

As I see it, love and truth bind us together. No, He does not have to save anyone, but by His nature, by His Word, and by His great Love, He will save us. That is what Grace is....our undeserved gift of grace. Given, though we do not deserve it.

Romans 5:

...7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!...

D.

[sheila]

Psalms 102;19,20 [16-22]   THE LORD LOOKED DOWN FROM HIS SANCTUARY ON HIGH FROM HEAVEN HE VIEWED THE EARTH

     TO HEAR THE GROANS OF THE PRISONERS AND RELEASE THOSE CONDEMNED TO DEATH. :2c:

[MusicLover123]

On the image of God, I read that it is actually it is the Greek aorist tense. Essentially it would actually say God is making and not has made. Apparently the same way I AM is used. The same for John 3:16...

16for God did so love(Should be loves as He STILL loves us) the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing(Notice it is PRESENT tense, still going on, and not Past. Regarding these verses as PAST tense is incorrect, apparently) in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Same for Hebrews 4:10(got Concordant version online site somewhere)

10 For he who is entering into His stopping(Should be thought of as PRESENT tense apparently. Same for when most translations have past tensed words like rested, believed, stretched, shall be as current, etc. These should be more better written as: is restING, is believING, is stretchING, WILL be saved as a future event - Kingdom and not now. That is what faith is for right now, I think, but need more studying on it to be more conclusive.) he also stops from his works even as God from His own.

We are also on that seventh day right now. As God IS ceasing His works(physically) we are also CEASING our works, and having peace/rest in Him, guarded by Him with the mind of Christ, which surpasses all understanding( I am thinking worldly wisdom)(Phil 4:6)

Hebrews 10:1
1For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near

This is why we are not to do things like the sabbath, physical religious rituals, religious junk stuff, etc. Why? Because these things are a mere SHADOW of things to COME! We fulfill the sabbath SPIRITUALLY. How? By RESTING our own works, and doing HIS in us! How much greater are the things of now a mere shadow of Heavenly things to come?

God's my  2c: